How to Protect Your Peace with Whitney Goodman

Welcome to a special series of Dear Dr. Tracy created for the launch of my new book, you, your Husband and His Mother, which is coming out in less than three weeks. Over the next few episodes, I'm bringing you real honest conversations about navigating in laws and extended family members. Because these aren't abstract ideas. These are daily dynamics that are shaping your home, your nervous system and your relationship. And I know that you want to feel connected with your partner and and to work through some of these common challenges that show up. And hey, even if you do have good relationships with extended family members, with your parents and your in laws, these episodes are only going to help you strengthen those bonds. And also grab my book because you'll have tools and exercises to bring you even closer. The very best way to support my work is to pre order the book. And when you do, you'll also get access to my exclusive live pre order coaching session. This is happening before the book comes out. I'm not going to make you wait, but I'm going to walk you through real scenarios, offer you scripts and step by step guidance and you're going to end up feeling less alone and you'll know what to do next. So the pre order details are in the show notes. Today's guest is the perfect voice for this series. Whitney Goodman is a licensed marriage and therapist and the founder of Calling Home, an online community and resource hub for adults navigating family dysfunction, boundaries and estrangement. She's also the host of Calling Home, a podcast exploring the nuance of adult child parent relationships, and the author of Toxic Positivity. You also likely know her from Instagram as it with Wit, where she shares grounded, compassionate guidance on family dynamics and emotional health. All right, let's go into today's conversation.

Whitney, I'm so glad to have you here on the podcast. Thank you for joining me here and for being part of this special series leading up to the launch of my new book. So thank you.

Thank you so much for having me.

I am really looking forward to our conversation today because I know the things you post about are so important. The things you're writing about, the work you're doing with your clients. It's really needed in this time. And so I thought maybe just to root us in this conversation, we could start with talking about what does estrange when you say estrangement, what does that look like and what does it actually mean?

What's so interesting about family estrangement is there really isn't a consensus around a definition is what I found So I noticed that people fall into a couple of different camps, right? There are people who are on the far end that they don't speak ever. Then we have people who will speak to a family member maybe under certain conditions, like if there is an emergency, a health issue, something like that. Then we have some that I would classify as more being emotionally estranged, but not physically. Like, they might have contact at group events, things like that. And then I've even had people tell me, you know, I feel like I'm estranged from my parent, but I do talk to them still, or my family member, which I find interesting. Like, there's just a lot of variation to that definition.

It's a spectrum almost. And because I think what we do when it comes to families, we almost come to this place of saying, well, what's right or wrong? And what's the right thing to do? How do you help people walk through that mud?

Yeah, I think it's all, you know, it's so nuanced and it's so personal. But to me, it's about, how is this relationship functioning today? What is it like in your life? What impact is it having on all these other really important parts of, like, your ecosystem? So if you have a relationship with your mom that is making it hard for you to be a good parent, making it really hard for you to be married, you're stressed at work all the time. Maybe it's impacting your financial situation. These are signals that I'm thinking, okay, we need to kind of take a look at this relationship and see is this much contact and this type of contact working?

Yeah, absolutely. It's this sense of how. How is my resiliency, how am I dealing with these things? What is it that I need? And I think that's really tricky for people because we often get stuck in this morality conversation around what's right and what's wrong. And I know for so many people, for. For generations, they've been down this road of staying in contact, show, showing up to the family Christmas. That's just what you do. And I think now we're coming to this conversation. I wonder if you have thoughts about why we're having these conversations now.

Yeah, so a couple of reasons, I think why this has become such an important topic is that we are typically living much farther from family than we ever have in history. There are also a lot more ways to keep in touch with our family members, meaning that there are a lot more opportunities to violate boundaries, to be enmeshed, to share your opinion that I think that that contributes some to the rise in needing to create distance from people. We also have the ability now to create relationships with what we would call chosen family in a way that we never have before because of living at a distance, being on the Internet. I think especially, you know, women going to higher education more often, getting access to more social circles, being in the workforce, that we don't have to rely on our family members exclusively as not only our emotional and social support, but also financial support and who we work with. It used to be that way that you know, your family was your livelihood, they were your village, and oftentimes they were your friends as well.

These are such interesting pieces and I think about the increased opportunity for boundary violations because one of common things I hear from people is especially with the mother in law, daughter in law dynamic, it's that a extended family member, mother in law is so excited to become grandma. And so what does she do? She posts the announcement on Facebook and then she shares the pictures on Facebook. It's often it's guided by this inner excitement and desire of family connection. But that being able to slow down and connect and do that self other piece with your, your adult children is missing. But then I think you make such a good piece there where it's like, oh, there are so many more other opportunities here to miss each other. Just based on the sheer number of ways we can communicate through text. I know many people will say these hurtful messages are coming through by text. We're not having conversations on the phone. And then what's being shared on social media. I had one person come to me say that their mother in law had shared miscarriage and their fertility plan with other family members. And just that experience is so crushing.

It's so true that I also hear the same thing where a lot of these other mediums are kind of where these violations are happening, right? Social media, text messaging. I've heard stories people being, you know, they try to set boundaries with a family member and the family members going as far as to get burner phones to sending things to their home. Like it's just easier today to do things like that. And I think because the boundary violations or the enmeshment, the attempts to like encroach can become so intense. That often means that the boundary setting gets more and more intense. And then we see things like estrangement and no contact, in my opinion, because it's the last option.

Yes. Okay, let's, let's talk right there about that. Which also too just adding that piece of social media I've heard of other people being blocked, family members, siblings blocking each other. And then of course, how do you build safety in a family? So I, I'm wondering then, what is it that people misunderstand about estrangement? Because I, I think of the aunt and uncle or the sibling, I often think of the adult siblings coming together and one sibling says, well, you just need to give mom more compassion. And this sibling only understands one event instead of, yeah, so I'll let you jump in there. What is it that people misunderstand about it?

No, you're, you're absolutely right about that. Reason that I think there's a big misunderstanding that like what we know about a relationship reflects the entire dynamic. Right. And this is very common for siblings to project their own relationship with their parent onto that of a sibling and not to really understand that, hey, your sibling had a completely different life with that parent. Even for people who have good relationships with their parents, they still have different experiences of that family member. Another big misconception, I think is that this is new or that it hasn't been happening, or that there's suddenly like this huge influx. I think pretty much everyone listening to this right now can think of at least one uncle, cousin, somebody that they were like, oh, that's like Uncle Joe, he never comes around, or we only see him on this holiday. We all kind of had that family member that you can think of. And so I do think now it's being talked about much more widely. People feel much more comfortable sharing about it, especially young people on social media, because they're very comfortable in those mediums. The other thing that you did mention that I think is a really important misconception to bring up is the idea that this just happens like overnight or it's a kind of rushed, rash decision. In my experience, I haven't met anyone, you know, that's just done that on a whim. Now, of course, there are things that complicate this, like addiction, mental health issues that are going to maybe lead to certain cutoffs that are like in the heat of the moment and they don't stick. But these real, actual long term decisions to become estranged, I find are happening over many, many years with a lot.

Of attempts to reconcile the two analogies I think about is it's the death by a thousand paper cuts. And I say that in my book. One of my clients came to that kind of realization of like, my husband doesn't see this and it's like death by a thousand cuts. So my arms are bleeding out and you're telling me it's not that big of a deal when mom comes over and says, are you feeding the kids enough? Or whatever those criticisms are. The criticism, hostility, the denial, these long term patterns. And then also too, it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. And that's often what family members miss seeing in this is that it's not just this one single event in a silo, it's all of these events that have led up to it. And I think that is a really important piece. And also too, in a way to help listeners remove that shame from it, that if you're feeling like you're doing this and you're bad, you're the bad son, you're the bad daughter, to recognize that there are really good reasons for this and that there is no right or wrong. It's more about, I think I'm seeing this more with people is we're stepping out of that morality and into what's actually really important to us. How do we want to break cycles and raise our children and do it differently? Which makes me think of another common thing that shows up in my community which is around being blamed for withholding grandchildren. I see that, of course. Right. And of course then when a cut. It's one thing for a couple to say we're going to be more distant from this family member, but then when that couple has a baby, family members expectations show up in there. And it's really this, I think this is so interesting because a lot of people today, and I think a lot of women are coming to this point, is that they're saying, I no longer want to cater to the least healthiest person in the family. And we think about that the family Christmas dinner where the drunk uncle is always there and everybody doesn't say anything and he's just there and that's the Christmas dinner. You pack up and then you're the kid in the backseat hearing your parents talk about it. It's the sibling who shows up late and never contributes to the event. It's all of these moments where it's like, we're not withholding, we're choosing differently.

I, I completely agree. And there's something about the addition of a baby to the family that I think makes people go nuts. Like it just throws everything off. And especially for, you know, when you have a man and a woman that are married and we're talking about that man, you know, with his mother, I think that's one of the first times and, and I don't know if you see this as well. But like there's actual boundaries being set because they like have to be. It's, it's more high stakes. They could get away with not doing it before. And so that's when I see a lot of this. Like, everything was fine until I sent the wrong outfit and now they won't let me see the baby. Or like, I just wanted to see the baby at the hospital room and really they wanted to like be in there for the birth. It was not what they're describing, you know, that it gets, it becomes this like, I only did this one little thing. And we leave out all the other contexts that led to that day.

Yeah, this is the most common point where I see men show up into therapy or when they show up for couples therapy. And it's because they're struggling as a couple to get on the same page because he's now being asked to do something different. And I talk about this in, in my book, in the dynamic that the uniqueness between mother and son as a relationship. And I, and I know that I have a son and a daughter. I know that there's this different bond with my little guy. And it's so special to show him what it means to love a woman for the. I'm his first love. I recognize that. Right. Not in the weird way, but in the way of like the emotional attachment. And then at the same time, though many men have grown up in families. Well, many people, I'm going to say people, Many people have grown up in families where there's these patterns of denial, control, rigidity, enmeshment, and they've never had to set boundaries. On the flip side then women, we know girls have been setting boundaries much earlier on and that's a pattern that we just often see. So. Yeah, absolutely.

No, I, I completely agree. And I think also, you know, when you say that about like you're relationship with your son, I think it's. I, I have two sons and it's like, okay, I can see that. But I would never want to stay in that role when they're an adult of like, no, I am your love your partner, like very much in this romantic type of identity. And I think that's also, it's like this holding on to that position that can be very difficult.

I've been talking about denial as one of these unhealthy family patterns that show up and just how for so long if a parent is in that position of denying that things are a problem, it almost forces then this couple to make A decision of what they're going to do because it is a real experience. And I think again then, and I know Whitney, you and I both experience this, that we get hostile comments on social media.

A recent one that I received was why are you trying to break up families? And, and I, I'm sure you do. And for people who don't follow you on Tick Tock, you have amazing videos on Tick Tock. So you need to go check out Whitney on Tick Tock. But this is this, it's almost, it's almost this like mind bend because it's like, okay, wait, hang on. I'm not causing a mother in law or a mom or a parent or a sibling to do these behaviors. We're actually here calling out these things that are insidious, that are damaging to one's self esteem. And so then the flip side, I often say to people is so you want to silence this experience, which I think is what we've been doing. And that's why in the last, I would say arguably 20 years, especially with the information boom in 2011, 2012, we're saying, no, we don't want to keep doing that.

Do you find that it's very challenging, like for mothers in law to see their daughter in laws doing something different than they did, like standing up to things that they were not able to?

Yes, a hundred percent. And I think a lot of mothers in law will say, I had a good relationship with my mother in law. And that definition of good, there's likely boundary violations in there and they just push those to the side. And then because they did that, they then expect you to do the same. And when you're saying we don't want to show up for Sunday dinner every week, then they're kind of, they're like, well, why wouldn't you? That's just what you do. And so it almost is like this threat and that taps into this sense of insecurity for mothers in law. The insecurity of what's my role here in the family. Here's another woman, my son no longer calls me anymore, even though he didn't call her much before. Or they're not, they're going to her family every Sunday for dinner, even though they never went to his family for Sunday dinner. Now it's like, what's my role here? And then this insecurity of if you're raising your children different, if your marriage looks different, if you're showing up in the workplace different, does that mean that I did it wrong? And that is a really hard thing to break. And I think that is really where that tension comes up between these two women, which is why we see more conflict between daughters in law and mothers in law.

Right. No, that. That makes complete sense.

I think this is also this piece here, and I know this is what you talk a lot about too, in your Calling Home podcast and also with your membership community, is what it means to build healthy family dynamics. And I wonder if you could label maybe what that looks like in. In a family. So when we think of like the generations, what does healthy fam. What do. What do healthy families actually do?

I think my goal for. For healthy families is that they're able to tolerate difference and that they're able to repair after conflict, that they have good systems in place for dealing with hurt, mishap, things like that. And that also there's the freedom to be yourself. And obviously, within reason, I think some people say that's just the way I am about, you know, being very rude or mean or cruel. But when I say the freedom to be yourself, I mean the freedom, you know, to pursue the religion you want to pursue and, and the marriage that you want to have or not or certain types of degrees. I think what I see a lot in dysfunctional families is like such a high need for control and for everyone to be the same. And you just sort of mentioned this about mother as in law, that like, well, if I. If you do it different from me, that means I did it wrong. And I think that's a big thing generationally in families right now. And we all have to realize that a healthy family might have a lot of the same characteristics, but look very different across the spectrum and also change throughout the generations because we are all living in different worlds. We are not raising. I'm raising my kids in a completely different atmosphere than my parents raised me. And so that means our parenting can have some of the same themes and flavors. Like it is going to be different.

You've touched on such a key piece here around that concept of differentiation and how as babies, as early as I think it. Is it four weeks or it's not four months? I feel like it's four weeks. When you first. The baby first realizes when their eyes shift and grow four weeks after birth, they realize that they are separate from you. And that's the process of separation. And it's almost like in unhealthy families, your limbs are like, your child's limbs are still attached to you even though they're an adult and you haven't allowed them to Separate. It's almost like when that eight month old is like pushing you away and you're saying no, you have to stay close, I want a hug. And you make it about you needing that hug. That is again that small moment where your child is trying to individuate from you. And then of course at two we hear the toddler yelling no. And seven, the I hate you. And all the things that show up. And all of these moments a child, a person is trying to say I'm different from you. And then it's our job as parents to say yes and that's okay. And I think that's really where some of these struggles are showing up with adults right now, is that they're doing that. They look, they look right to their kids and they're doing that with them. And then they look left to their parents and their parents aren't getting on board with them and they don't see that, that it's, you know, it's okay if we don't do Christmas the same way as it once was. Let's carve out what's going to work for our families. It's okay if you once had these two special days all on that side of the family. But now myself, I have to balance more family members and everybody's needs and even our own needs and wishes. I wonder if we can talk about maybe even how someone makes this decision. So you've, you've outlined this spectrum and it can be this low contact to no contact. It can also be kind of the physical pieces, it might be supporting the grandparent and grandchild having a relationship. I wonder what are the things that you're hearing from people or how do you support them to make this kind of decision? Recognizing that it is a really big one. And I know people really battle with that decision.

So if we look at this decision happening, you know, over a very long period of time for some people, I think from years to two decades, the first part is even just noticing that anything is going on, that your family is different. And we were actually talking about this yesterday in one of our groups at Calling Home. Someone was expressing like I've seen this, you know, and now I can't go back. And I think that's what it is for a lot of people. They have these realizations and, and they often come at these pivotal moments where we start to get perspective outside of our families and outside of our communities. So some of those might be going away to college, moving to a new city, seeing your partners, family, having friends and you get exposed to their families and you really learn, like, wow, not every family is like mine. And maybe there's some things in my family that are hurting me or that are hard for me. Then from there, I do see a lot of people sort of going through this process of one trying to erase what they've learned and not see it anymore, trying to get along, make do with it, sort of figure it out. And some people do, in this stage, decide to bring it up, you know, to their family member. And this is, this is a key point, especially when we're talking about parents, that if an adult child decides to bring up what's going on in the family, what they're upset about to the parent, the way the parent reacts in this moment, I think sets the tone for the future. Right. And so if you are getting a lot of dismissiveness, denial, arguing, shutting it down, more likely to kind of take the path of, of estrangement or distancing. But there are certainly.

Can we even pause it right there? I just, I just want to really highlight that moment of this, this entry into adulthood. And we often think that your child is 18, they're an adult, they have their license, they, well, 19, they can drink in Canada. I know it's different in the state, in Ontario, different in other places. But Anyways, here's this 19, 21 year old, they go off to university college and we deem them this adult. And yet I've actually started defining adulthood at 27, because of course we know the prefrontal cortex is developing. It finishes developing 22 to 25 later for boys, for men. And then it's like, here I am at this point, I'm coming to you. And that's this moment where I've just had this awakening in this awareness, but I'm not coming to you. And of course, I think this is what takes a lot of that emotional maturity work from parents, is that when your 22 year old is coming to you, their brain is not fully formed and they're like, you did all this. This is a moment for parents to say, I see you. Gosh, this is so painful and I'm so glad you came to me. But I hear what you're saying, Whitney. That's not what often happens, whether they're 22 or 37, going to them for the first time.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, this really relates to what you were just talking about, about differentiation and becoming your own person, that I actually think that period from like 18 to 27, where a lot of Kids are going out on their own, they're becoming adults, and often even getting married or partnering, moving in with someone during that time. Right. Is one of the most pivotal moments in the adult relationship between parents and their children. Because this is where a lot of parents do that thing that you were talking about, even with babies of like, no, no, no, you are still part of me. You are going to do what I want you to do. And this extends across so many, you know, areas of life. Right? And the more that the parent does that, especially with certain personality types, often the more the kid pulls away and they start to even, like, change themselves in certain ways that maybe they don't even want to be just to differentiate themselves from the parent. And so I think that moment and the moment when you decide to say, hey, I'm thinking about this thing from childhood, or you keep criticizing me every time I come home when they want to bring this stuff up, it's so important for a parent on the receiving end of that information to remember, I am so lucky that my kid is telling me about this because they must want a relationship with me. It's like you've hit the lottery if your kid does that, I think because otherwise they're not talking to you. They actually think it's probably not worth it or not salvageable. And so I know that it can be a really defensive moment for parents of like, I can't believe you're saying this to me, but it's actually like such a good sign.

That's a huge piece in that, in that narrative of how you can just show up differently. I, I wrote a section in the book because I knew people were asking me this question. I'm recognizing, I will be a mother in law one day. How do I welcome in this outside. Right. And one of those common conflicts that shows up is daughters in law will say to me, I'm the outsider. I was never welcomed into the family. Or one of the stories in the book is about a client I worked with who grew up in the same small town. They found each other at a later point in life and continued, yet even though they had similar childhood experiences, would always be the outsider in the family. And then daughters in law are scapegoated, they're blamed, they're viewed as the bad one for causing problems or. And yet.

It'S all about how we then approach and welcome in this person who's not your family. And I do believe there's a really powerful way women can do that. And so that's part of the book. And it's like, here are these three steps. And I had a few comments recently on a post and people were sharing. I met my mother in law when I was 15 and she never got to know me, she never wanted to know me. And that's just so painful. I can't even imagine being a 15 year old and having that long relationship of a woman who didn't want to know who her son was spending all that time with.

Yeah, it's, it's terrible. And, and it's, I think comes from this place, right. Of like the family maybe feeling threatened, they don't want things to change, whatever it is. But you know, I mentioned, I'm definitely going to read that part in your book because I, I mentioned I have two sons and, and I'm having a daughter now, but I always kind of thought I was just gonna have all sons at this point. And so I've always thought like, oh my gosh, I can't wait till I get a daughter in law because I've just been surrounded by boys that I feel like if you have this mindset to some degree of like, it would be really wonderful to have this person in my life and if my child loves them, then there must be something good in them. And finding that I think is so important. But I feel like the narrative is changing a little bit on it, at least among like millennials. And I see a lot more women talking about how they can't wait to like welcome a daughter in law potentially into their life. And so I hope that there has been a shift there.

Yeah, it's, it can be such a special time in the family and it really is. I go back to a lot of what the motherhood conversations are right now. I think of Eve Rotsky's unicorn space and how important it is for us to build our own identities outside of our families. And I'm noticing it now as my children are 10 and 8. They go to the park, the kids are knocking on the door and gathering each other. They're riding their bikes after school or this would be time where we would always be together in the home. Now my husband and I are looking at each other like, well, I mean, I mean the good news is we can finish a little bit more of the work we need. And then the other good news is we have to do things for ourselves. Yeah. Otherwise we lose ourselves or we, we. The flip side of that at the other extreme is we anchor onto our kids and we hold on to them tighter. No, we always do family time or I Remember one client describing, like, she would come home after school and her mother was always right there asking all of the questions. And of course, through teenage years, this didn't feel good for her. She wanted space and autonomy. And mom was always there saying, tell me how your day was. Why aren't you speaking to me? What's. What's with the look on your face? Well, something must have happened, so tell me. And it's really this intrusion rather than a meeting your child with where they're at and where they're at developmentally. I wonder when we think of this conversation. So let's maybe give some practical pieces for people. And I love specific scripts or steps that they can take. So I'll give you three common things that show up, and then maybe you can tell listeners how they could go about it. So let's think about a common one that shows up. This is around the frequent request for visits or showing up at an unannounced. And this one commonly shows up, especially when a grandbaby enters a picture. So how might someone address this by saying in some way that we're not available? What would they do?

I'm a big proponent of the child, of those parents being the one to communicate so that it's not put on the other person and finding ways to say things. I think first off, starting off kind right of saying, we're not available on that day, we would love to see you at this time, or we're happy to do a FaceTime. I find that offering an alternate can sometimes diffuse the situation, if appropriate.

I love that. And also there's that element of reassurance, of being able to say, you're important in our life. It is the sense of. And you and I both speak about this in our work, is the attachment, security between people, not just between parent and child, not just between partners, but also this security building in adult and adult child relationships and parenting in the sense of saying, you matter to us. And we can't do these unannounced visits. We'll have to plan this for another time. Okay, this one often shows up if a parent minimizes or denies. What could someone do in response to that?

So you could just ignore it and say, like, they don't get it. I need to stop going to, like the Apple store for oranges. I think some people have to do that. It's. If you feel safe to be able to respond, I think you can say, I know that you don't remember it this way. Or you may not understand how I'm feeling. But this is how I feel, and it's important to me. And sometimes it's okay to say, is there a way that I could explain this to help you understand? Do you have any questions about how I feel? And sometimes if that becomes so rampant, you. You might need to stop discussing it.

I often talk about what people need from their parents. I wonder if that's something that you do of when you go to that conversation. Can you think about what it is that you need? Is it just hearing yourself say it in front of them and that's what you're going to accept? Is it that you can express to them? I just need you to acknowledge that this was really hard for me. And then being able to use that words for them, that, that wording for them. Is that something that you would encourage people to do as well?

100%, I think. I was, I was working on this in my book the other day. It's about exactly what you're saying, like balancing, okay, what do you need? And also what can they realistically provide me with? And is this the right person to go to, to meet that that's so important?

There is this sense of dropping the rope. That's something I talk about in the book, is this acceptance and how hard that is.

But we go to family members hoping they'll be different, hoping they'll change, and. And yet they're predictable and consistent. And so can we just drop the rope of hoping that they'll be different, which is, I think, such a hard thing to do. Okay, last one. How to handle the your own guilt spirals when you're up in the middle of the night.

This is when I think it's good to try to do something distracting. I always play, like, meditations or listen to a book on tape. I don't think that anything is going to be solved in that, Mom. So even jotting down what you're thinking about on your phone or on a piece of paper and looking at it again in the morning to see if you still care or worry about that thing and listening to something, getting up and moving around, drinking water, all those are usually helpful.

Yeah, those are so important. Just recognizing nothing's going to be productive in the middle of the night. And by writing it out, getting it out of your brain so it's not there and you're not ruminating it, ruminating with it. And I also love reminding that element of guilt. Guilt reminds us that your values are in conflict, but it's not that you're doing something bad. And yes, I love that, that's, oh, that's just so important for people to remember that. Whitney, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. This was great.

So I know you have a book coming out down the road, but right now people can benefit so much from working with you. Can you tell people listening where they can find you and what you have going on?

Of course. So I am the host of the Calling Home Podcast. You can listen to episodes on YouTube, Spotify and Apple. On Tuesdays and Thursdays we talk about adult family relationships. And then I also have the Calling Home Community, which is our subscription community where you can come and do support groups on a variety of topics with licensed therapists, including me. And then we also have a full content library to help you with your adult family relationships.

I love that you have this community to support people. So I'll put the links in the show notes. Thank you again, Whitney.

Thank you.

I'm so grateful you joined me for this conversation with Whitney. So before we close, I want to name something that often gets misunderstood and that is that estrangement can be an act of care. Care for your nervous system. Care for your home. Care for your long term well being. And that distance doesn't necessarily mean we are slamming the door shut. It often looks like there's a spectrum and this is going to be different for everybody. Those might be fewer calls, shorter visits. For others it's more scheduled, structured contact that happens outside of each each other's homes. And for some it becomes low contact or no contact at all. I think what's important here to understand is that when we make these choices, it comes from a conscious place and not from that place of punishment and wanting to hurt the other person back. And when we do it from this place, we are aligning ourselves with our values to help us stay grounded and ultimately to stay well. And this is exactly what my Vault method is all about. This is about helping you and your partner pick a road together as a team. The Vault stands for values, aspirations, understanding your triangles, limits and boundaries and taking action. And we start here by clarifying what matters, why it matters. And in the book, I'm going to take you through stories and scripts and hands on exercises that are going to change how you feel. Showing up with your mother in law and boundaries. Here's what I want to emphasize. So this shows up in the fourth step of the Vault Method inside my book. You're going to get step by step scripts on how, how to do this, but you're also going to get my three key ingredients that you and your partner need to set boundaries as a solid team. But I want to emphasize this and I'm going to teach you in this step. Boundaries don't just come out of thin air. Boundaries come from a place of our core needs and they're connected back to our values. And this is one of the reasons why couples bump up against each other so much. Because one partner is saying you need to set a boundary with your mother and the other is not understanding what this is really about and why it's such a big deal. But the key thing here is that my vault method is going to help you shift from me versus you to us versus the problem. If today's conversation stirred something up for you, I would love to support you further. When you pre order the book, you will be invited to my live coaching session with me. You are going to hear real stories and watch how I guide people through those sticky in law dynamics and hard family decisions. And most importantly, then you'll be part of this community saying, oh hey, it wasn't just me and we're not alone in this. All right, if this episode was helpful, share it with someone who needs it. And it always helps me here on the podcast when you, like, subscribe and leave a review. I read all of the reviews. I'm grateful you're here and I'm cheering you on as you choose the road that protects your peace and your marriage. Remember, this podcast is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. Until next time, take good care of you.