Raine Maida & Chantal Kreviazuk on Real Marriage

Hey, it's Dr. Tracy.

And today's episode is one that's really close to my heart. I'm sitting down with two people I deeply admire as artists, as parents, and as partners, Chantel Kraviazik and Rain Maida. You might know them from their music, or maybe you've even seen their documentary I'm going to break your heart. Or maybe you've checked out their substack a rock and roll love story, which I love because they peel back the curtain and show you all of the pieces around creating a long lasting relationship. But what moved me most in this conversation wasn't just their creativ. It was their courage to let us see the real marriage behind the music, the hard moments, the micro ruptures, the rewrites, and the deep commitment underneath it all. In our conversation, they share how a film that was supposed to be just about making an album together became a mirror for their relationship. Catching the hard moments, the conflict, the tiny heartbreaks, and the decision to keep it all in so other couples could see themselves and feel less alone. When I watched this documentary, I saw these small moments that weigh so heavily for couples that I see unfold, unfold in my therapy room every single day. We talk about the power of the pause and conflict, what it means to be a maximizer and a minimizer in love, why finding your music as a couple matters, and how modeling, repair and vulnerability is one of the greatest gifts.

We can give to our kids.

Their honesty, humor and tenderness with each other is such a beautiful reminder that long term love isn't about perfection. It's about progress, history, and choosing each other again and again. This conversation stayed with me long after we stopped recording and I think it.

Will stay with you too.

Let's dive into this rock and roll love story with Chantel and Rain.

Chantel and Rain, thank you for inviting me here to your home and for sitting with me and having this conversation with me. Before we were starting, I was thinking about even talking about my own relationship in the media and opening up about that. So it's not something I do with my clients in therapy, but part of my journey in the last six years was to really start normalizing the story for people around. Relationships are hard and they take a lot of work. And even in the early days before I wrote my first book, I think Greg had even said, like, do you want to share this stuff? Like, this is, you know, this is personal, but you guys do something that is just so aligned with what I want to be doing and helping people with and that is talking about your marriage.

Yeah.

And the heart of it.

And the heart of it or the heart of it?

Both.

Both.

But.

But you guys did that even before the social media boom in 2020, right? You guys were doing it before then.

I feel like we helped Usher it in, I swear to God. Because some of the things that I saw, I do.

Really? You humbly say I do?

I do. Because I think that, like, Rain and I tend to be more like artists and. And I think that, like, especially somebody who has written songs for global superstars and sees how all that works. I know this sounds crazy, but I actually have seen a say and do things and then them show up on a. On a. Like, scaled out by somebody with a. With a larger platform. And it actually has been the greatest compliment of my life. And the reason for that is because unlike the sort of the competitiveness that I have felt as a female in the music business, something very, very different happens inside of me when I think of couples, coupling, the science of coupling, and people working on the relationships. Because I really do believe in my heart of hearts that peace begins at home. And I truly believe in opportunities to learn conflict, peaceful conflict resolution. And so, you know, I have such a wish for the world in this, like, little altruist Chantal, you know, that we'll all get a little bit better at being together.

I think some context is important, though. I think we kind of, like, stumbled into this in a way, because we went to film a documentary. We're trying to make a record together because we played different charity events, and we'd play each other's songs, and then we're like, hey, should write a song that just is ours instead of covering each other's at these events.

Do you think that was the beginning of it?

This is the very beginning. It's like Inception point. And so we tried, literally in the studio for years to do it. Wrote one song, and then a friend of ours who's in the film business said, you know what, if you guys book a crew and flights and go somewhere else, it'll force you to actually do it. Because she. She saw us stumbling and frustrated and just frustrated with it. Not dogs and kids and tours is just impossible. So I went to this little island off the coast of Canada with my. It's called St. Pierre. Kind of embedded ourselves there for two and a half weeks. And it was really tough. It was January. We were. It's like three flights to get there. You know, the kids were young.

I had a pregnancy.

Okay.

That went bad.

Yes. Like, it. It was the perfect storm.

All the things.

So while we were trying to film this doc about us being creative together and. And writing this album and then coming back here to record it, we captured on film a lot of. And I think, you know, songs aren't just born out of thin air. It's something you have an idea or angst. There's a conflict or angst or it's happy or whatever that is. That was all caught on film as well. When we were editing it, it felt like, you know, what if we edit all that stuff out? There is no context to these songs. But when you put it in and you're watching it back, especially as a couple, you're like, oh, my God, did I really say that? And it's. You're like a witness to your own crap. Yeah. Like, you know, I mean, your own faults as. As a. As a couple one, but as just how you walk in a relationship and how you deal with conflict or other stuff, and so super heavy. But I think we made. If there was anything that was courageous, it was making the decision to keep it in.

I have a slight.

And then people just felt like, sorry, people just when they saw. They're like, oh, my God, you guys normalized our relationship.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That we were a mirror. We held up a mirror to, like, most couples because Rain and I, working with Dr. John Gray, learned so many important little values about, you know, how this whole couple thing works. And one of them is that it's. It's truly only 5 to 6, maybe percent of people or couples who are passed down this incredible aura surrounding.

We hate those people.

We hate those freaking people. We are not those people. He comes from a divorce. I come from, like, I think my. My family running from Stalin for. For four generations. You know it. And so that's who a lot of us are. We're. We're trying. We're trying to sort, you know, the. The thing of it. I did want to add just a very personal part of what I saw occurring when we were making a documentary. Documentaries are super interesting. There is an edit and an edit and editing is kind of everything. You could say that the Menendez brothers are guilty, or you could say that the Menendez brothers are. Are innocent. And I've learned a lot with this.

Landed on the moon.

We can say we landed on the moon and we did 150% and we'll never know. But one of the things that happened was when you're first figuring out, okay, what is this?

All these, like, ideas come and because it was meant to be a music documentary. One of the ideas that I remember early on Rain and our. Our producing partner had was like, well, Chantal, you're in a lot of sessions right now with these artists you're working with. Go in and film yourself. And I got physically ill. I got physically ill for two reasons. One was, there's something I have inside of me. I think it's a profound insecurity of, like, maybe imposter syndrome, that I don't even belong in the room with Kendrick Lamar or something like that. But I had this like, I can't go in there feeling or with the camera.

You did, and.

No, no, no, I did. And I hated it. It was horrible. But also I had a very deep rooted feeling about wanting people to know we struggle. And let's make this a tiny. I believe in tiny stories. I think that's great art because that's where truth and authenticity truly live. And I wanted to just truly make a teeny tiny. About our little life. Our little. What happens here. Not.

Yeah. In the edit booth, that's what came out was like, let's just be honest. Let's not. We tried to recreate scenes. Like, one director was like, oh, we need to set up the scene. We're just like this. None of this. The only thing that was honest was some of the conflict or some of the discussions or hurt feelings or whatever that led to writing a song and then seeing that song born. And I think it worked for that. And what it did for me specifically, because I was. I'm. I'm just essentially more of a. An insular person. It felt like it gave me permission, especially with the validation from bands like, hey, we really love this. Like, I love that you guys are showing the actual, like, you know, the real. It's messy like it is. And. And because it's based. It was based initially on getting to the song, I almost tricked myself into, like, doing this thing with Chantal now where I feel somewhat empowered to. To speak about a relationship, because I do believe you have to bring creativity to relationships. So there's all these kind of threads that tie together through me. Otherwise, 10 years ago, I would have never done this.

Something that your documentary really highlights is how in our relationships, it's not these big moments, the sick parent or the change in your career. It's actually the micro moments.

And this. That's a fascinating question to me because we actually have a song that's called I'm Gonna Break youk Heart that I think speaks to the way we look at exactly what you're talking about. Chantel has this theory. The song I'm Gonna Break youk Heart. I still to this day believe in the moment it was written. That title. Because when you commit to someone forever, it's like. It's an amazing thing. But ultimately someone's gonna die first and have their heart broken. Chantel's take of it is so wacky.

No, it's not, because it came from Dr. Te.

Well, let me explain. So. Yeah, I know, but I didn Science of Cups. So Chantal's thing is that there's all these mini heartbreaks that happen every day, which to me is like, exhausting to think about.

The reason I think he says, like, no, no, no, I don't want to do therapy is because he doesn't want to be therapist and he doesn't want to talk about. He doesn't want to get into the micro. He doesn't want to get in.

Oh, that's not true. I just feel like you can like anything, you can become obsessed with it. And I think when that happens, it's fine to be obsessed on your own with something, but when. When you have this relationship and you have to pull someone into that obsession, you just gotta be careful. It's just. It's like everything just. Moderation, balance. I'm obviously on this journey with Chantal. She always takes it a few steps further, which I admire.

No, I'm. I'm not a few steps further. I'm just a little further ahead.

Sure, baby, it's okay.

I say that as well. I say that to Greg.

I'm a little bit further ahead because. Yeah, I know.

You guiding the way?

No, I. Look, I would. Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be the person I am without Chantel in my life. 100. So I totally admire that and respect her, but I do. I always. I feel like there's. I don't. I. I hate generalizing. So I'm not going to say it's a female thing, but whoever is the maximizer in the relationship, well, 70% of.

The time, it's the female.

Okay, there you go. Science. Perfect.

So it's working for you now.

But the idea of always being in therapy, I don't think is great. I think that it's like you do have to live. You'd have to enjoy your life rel. Rely on those tools you learn. Especially like some of the things we learned from Dr. John are so, like. I don't want to say they're precision, but it's Just like it's. It. They're concise. It's cpr. Catch, pause, you know, repair. Like, I said it too. Last night. We were having a little bit of argument in here. I was like, can we just pause? Like, I love having that toolkit, but you just don't want to be always in therapy. That's my point.

I love that you just said that, Rain, because I often say to people, you need to pause. Let's pause. And it sounds almost therapy glitchy of. Oh, yeah, there's a therapist saying to pause for a moment. But it's so true. Because our brains. Our brains are going so fast that we can't keep up with it. And if we keep going, that's the spiral. That's where you get stuck.

Some of the things that we have said to each other are abhorrent. Like when there's another thing happening and then now we bring up stuff from the past or we make broad stroke statements about the other that are really hurtful. Um, and I think you really have to be able to learn to be situational and have a strategy surrounding how to have that conversation with your partner about that thing. And what is amazing to me is that even though we absolutely unequivocally know that we will still fall back, especially like when Rain and I, because we do have this like, weird, like, I don't know, like best, best, like friend thing and it. And it slips in and then I feel like, you know, he'll think he can get away with or just say something and oh, it's cute, it's funny, but it's still the thing that is against the rule. And like, I'll think in my mind, oh yeah, do I just want to be like super light about this right now and let it go and kind.

Of laugh it off?

Am I honoring our rules? Am I honoring how I really feel inside? Like, these are really challenging questions that, you know, we are all asking ourselves at all times. Like, am I going to give my husband a pass on that right now? Does he give me a. I think.

I think what you said is really key that, like, it's so easy to spiral as a. As a person, as a. Because it's. It's hard to self regulate, like in the moment. Right. Especially I feel like everyone is work. Everyone wakes up at like an eight and a half on the stress level anyway today. Yeah, just the culture, the society we lived in. And so the idea of pause, it is so simple, but I think it's like a game changer once you Realize when to activate it because it diffuses everything you get to. We. When we did Mago, we were talking about this on our last podcast about this. This woman, Francine. Her. Her. It was basically pause. It was CPR in a different way. It was like, hey, if you're. If there's something you're angry about, don't park it. Park it. Go write it on a. Like a journal. Come back in a week, and if it still bugs you, then you talk about it. And so it was just a different way to approach the, The CPR and the pause element. But yeah, I think it's. It's probably not to rate the stuff we've learned, but I. I think the pause part is like, saves my life.

If I could lean into something more as a couple. Because I do think that those tools have probably, probably saved our marriage for sure.

Yeah.

You know, I am not a pauser.

No, I'm not.

I am like a.

That's a maximizer thing.

That's it. How can I prove to describe.

Describe maximize.

It's like I get smart and I just start throwing in like. And also combined with. I need to address this and fix this right now.

I think that right now, think about. You think you can fix it?

Well, and I would be.

What would rain be referred to as the minimizer? Oh, yeah, Maximizer.

Okay. So I would take him down to like dismisser level. Like, you know, until it happens to him, and then now we have an opportunity. But it takes a lot.

Like, before we started, I had said that couples fight over the stage.

Silly.

Divorced over things that are right.

Like it's the, you know, how do you boil water?

Why did you leave your mug beside the kids?

I'm Italian. I made fried chicken.

Oh, I love how you said, I'm Italian. I love that you said I was. Next time I say I'm a 52 year old woman. Okay, I love this.

No, stop. No. This is context.

This is context for like, I love this.

I'm not a chef, but there's a few things I know how to cook. You know, I learned from my grandmother how to cooked chicken cutlets in. In olive oil properly. She went to the store, I said, get avocado oil. Just so a little healthier. Bought me some spray. So I had to cook them in something different.

Your son did that idea.

So they look different and she looks at them before she even really went up to them. Like, did you burn those?

No, I said.

So I was offended. I was offended. Wasn't that serious.

But which is the trigger. That's the entry point.

And we were already. And everything was already a little heated on some other things like the room.

Ma, you were offended, you had to go.

No, but this is the thing. This is this.

By the way, if I'm going to refer to myself, I'm. I call myself the blamer. That's my term. But I am a maximizer in, in our relationship. I know exactly where to go. And Greg will sometimes do this little like eye thing that he thinks I can't see.

Oh, he does it too.

Or it's this kind of like hand flip if we're driving. And it's so subtle and I see it at the corner of my eye and I'm like, right there. No, like we're going in for it.

Right?

And it's this small moment, though it's not really about the chicken.

It's about like seeing for me was I could not be situational now because I could not. No, no, no, no, no. Because I am a 52 year old woman who has raised three plus him. Boys. Boys.

Three boys.

Four boys at four boys.

And in this home where I have balanced trying to keep us on the rails domestically with quite frankly, people would be astonished how little help.

For all that therapy session. Of course it is. We have the opportunity to sit with the doctor. No, I have been, I have had to grow thick skin.

Okay.

If I paint a picture and it's not.

I think you called me a snowflake.

I called him a snowflake. I said, I, I live in the house. A bunch of softies. This is unbelievable. How offended he got. How many times I've been told my pasta was not al dente or that I, you know, have no flavor in the stew or that my asparagus is overcooked. Directed. You know how many times like moms go through that all the time. And it hurts. But I have had to get so.

You know how I feel.

It is interesting. So it should have been that he was feeling it for the first time. And like I was like, I wanted to make. The joke I really wanted to make was like, okay, so I'm getting an apology right now for all the times this is you seeing. Right? You see, right?

But instead that that's the bigger moment that we. That I think so many women too is like when I see my husband finally experiencing the years of what I've experienced, then I want to go, well, now, how does it feel to be you?

Right?

Or how does it. But that doesn't work.

What's really really interesting about that to me is that that's kind of everything, because compassion and empathy are the beginning of all possibilities. All potential for healing, all potential for growth, all potential for creativity. I truly, truly believe it. And my favorite similar but different like, story on a sort of a really, I think everybody can relate level is when Dick Cheney said, I cannot. I cannot have.

Gay marriage be legal. But then his own daughter came out and she wanted to marry her, her wife. And he changed his position and he changed the world. He changed the world because he felt his own child experiencing something that mattered to her. Now, he ended up back flipping. But. But eventually. But the point is just that in all areas of life, I believe that there is a spectrum for how easily we can feel someone else's experience. And I think that women are a little bit deep, more deeply connected because we have children and so on, and so we feel things and we're kind of waiting for our partner. And that's the nice thing about staying with somebody for our whole life together, because we get to go through all the things, and I get to see his growth, he gets to see mine.

You know, there's two pieces in there. One, I had this thought earlier, thinking about the work you guys have done and shared, is that oftentimes people get hung up on this vision of who that person was when you first met. And then that's the story or the belief we want to hold on to. Remember those first six weeks we were together and how easy it was. Six weeks. I mean, like, you know, the honeymoon stage. Right. But instead of the evolution of two people and choosing each other every day.

The perfection. No. Progress. Yes.

Well, it's not about perfections, about progress. I. I particularly love the evolution more than anything. Like, I think the, The. The honeymoon period, however it long lasts, is. Is fine. But learning together, growing together, that's where, like, the real gold is, you know?

Yeah. Which does take time and patience.

It takes. You have to actually. You have to lean in, like, if. If that. And that's the problem. I think there has to be equity in a relationship where, yes, Chantal definitely probably starts those conversations more.

But I also push you to say, like, we're up. Like, when I'm really, really like. Like, really, I'll be like, I need you to take the reins on. However, this is gonna get better, because I'm tired. And I know a lot of women get that fatigue of being the cheerleader, and even that becomes a challenge. I think women tend to put forth toward their partners because otherwise it's It's. It's not gonna work.

Yeah, it's. But it is balanced, too, because I, I, you know, we're talking about maximizer, and even that thing about the chicken, like, Chantal couldn't stop. And so at the end of the day, it's like, I have. You know, the thing about the best way to ruin apology is with an excuse. When you keep talking, it's like, okay, you said, sorry. I get it. Thank you. Let's stop. And you just stand there, and you just keep going. I'm like, okay. We're like, we're almost through this. But there's also something in knowing because we've been through so much that it's gonna work out. That security. That security is huge.

Huge.

There's nothing like that.

She's not gonna say, well, that I'm out. So many people today do this, though, and it's an exit strategy. And it's.

We try to say, well, you can.

Basically set up your new life online on your phone, you know, and.

But you don't have the security and the knowing of each other and the. The willingness to say.

They underestimate the power of that history. That was one of the first things that Dr. John said to us, because we've been together about 12 years at the time. Something like that. Or maybe longer. Yeah, maybe 15. But he said, wow, you have. You already have a few kids. And. Oh, my gosh. And then he was like, gee, this happened that.

Oh, wow.

Well, you have a lot of history together. That's amazing. And that was the first time that anybody. Because you look at your parents, right? People are robbing our 55th wedding anniversary. And it's like, you, You. You think of yourselves as these, you know, little fledgling, whatever, but. But. But the truth is that, wow, day upon day, you are building this amazing history together, and it is truly worth fighting for. And more and more, the older I get, I'm talking to people who. On their. On their ex's deathbed. Who's there?

Yeah, their partner.

Their partner that they've divorced 22 years ago, who's driving them to the chemotherapy appointments, who is with them when.

You know, and. And also, there's way too much emphasis on the very unattainable. The reality is that, like, people are not sucking face and having sex like bunnies, like, for, you know, some people are, but that's not the norm for everybody. And you don't have to feel shame about what your partnership looks like. I am committed to this man, and it changes all the time. But he is my person, and I swear to God, I will not let someone else be the second. I am the second, third, fourth, and fifth wife, thank you very much. I get to have all the growth of him.

Oh, yeah. That's such a good, good piece there to say we're going to be this version of ourselves, and now we're being this version of ourselves. I wonder.

Exciting.

It is exciting when we can view it that way. I know. I know a lot of people will say, my husband doesn't want to do this work.

Right.

In the sense of, we don't need therapy. It's not that bad. We don't need to get a coach. And I wonder a bit. What would you say to those men who dig their heels in or say, we don't need to.

Yeah. It's so simple. Like, again, the. The. The piece of equity. Like, I don't think a relationship works if you don't validate that. And the easiest way to validate that is by going on that journey. And, and like I said, there's. There's balances, but you are gonna get it tonight, baby. But to think. But, but to think that. To think that. I mean, look, you know what I can't remember talking about before we started this, but the idea that you can get a license, you know.

Yeah.

To drive a. A weapon, basically. But we all get into this. Oh, I know. Because you said.

I was saying to you, you're putting.

Yeah, well, we know some. Yeah. Someone in our family's doing pre. Pre marriage, and I'm like, wow, that even that is, like, it's so valuable.

But I was also saying to you at some other point. Was it you. I was saying it to. It's like, we put so much effort into this job, that project.

A golf game or whatever it is, why on earth would you not be trying?

And I'll say, I. Yeah, I. Sometimes with guys, it is. It is more that, like, Sopranos thing where it's just like, I don't do therapy. But the idea. Something that really didn't. It didn't change my mind because I understand that I needed it. But if you have a family as well, like, therapy is really. It's. It's. It's like, it's got such a weird thing. I love the. The idea of coaching better than therapy. Dads definitely get that. It's like you, you know, you film your kid at the hockey rink and then you get in the car later and you show him what he's doing wrong, what he's doing. Right. Like, that kind of coaching is the same thing with, with the relationship, but at the end of. It's communication skills. But by improving your communication skills with your partner, not only are you, are you sending signals to your children of how to be in a healthy relationship, you're going to have better communication with them. It's holistic, you know.

And so he tells people, even if you don't end up together, do it because it will change your perspective on life. It will actually, you know.

Yeah, you take it in the workplace. It's, it's helped with, with, with, with my band with olp. Like, it's, it's so invaluable learning those, those communication pieces. And I think that's maybe the, the. It's. It's weird. It's like, I'm not trying to like, remove the stigma of therapy, but there is stigma around that word that is off putting for, for males, for sure.

I don't.

Yeah, I don't like the drudge. I remember the very little bit we touched on when we did our, our marriage coaching with John. At first, he, he was like, well, we don't, we don't need to go on and on about it. And I actually, there was some memory. I can't remember right now what it was, but it was about a bit that excavation, like, here, this is who I am. This is what makes me tick. This is why I am this way. Here's the healing I need from, from you as my, you know, reassurer in chief.

Yeah.

Okay. And, and getting to know someone truly, like I always say, I didn't know him until we. We went for our first coaching session. And then I was like, oh, this is who this person is. Okay, I get it. But I remember that I had, when describing a memory.

Heat shooting up my back from the bottom, from the base of my spine into my neck in such a way that I had to ask, do I need to go to, like, urgent care? Like, am I going to have a stroke? Like, what is going on with me? And Dr. John does very calmly said, no, you're gonna be fine. Let's, you know. And it was essentially like a primal, like, kind of anxiety attack, which was bigger than me. And, you know, we just screwed over it. But when we. What he educated us about was that when you do drudge continually, which is what a lot of people get into the pattern of doing, the words you are saying are physical. A lot of people think you're being silly when you say, you know, words are physical violence or what have you I tend to disagree with them. The words come out, they go back in your ear and you reprocess. And because I think you change every single day, the new you, who thought was better, who was stronger, who was more mature, whatever, is now hearing those words again. You are seeing your. Your child self abused again. You are seeing, you know, something you hadn't thought of in a long time.

Again, you know, you lost me.

And so.

When our mind goes to a certain place and we replay these narratives, or your partner keeps saying to you every day, you're never helping out. You don't do enough. Like, the repetition, that repetition becomes almost. It's bodily, it's abusive.

Right, Right. Yeah. I was still. I was still on the, like, what do you say to men? And I think one thing that kind of gets overlooked is that, you know, these communication skills and learning them, it's mental health. And we. And we. And I think everyone's on board of like, hey, mental health should be treated just no different. You have a cancer, it's like you can't see it, but it's there and it's real. And let's treat these people the same way. Removing stigma around mental health. I think the same thing applies now with therapy. And just in terms of, yeah, we're just trying to evolve. And that mental health aspect of it, even, Even as a man, like, like, we were talking before knowing that when we're in a fight, that it's okay, like, you're committed. Like, yep, I might not be having sex tonight, but the idea is that we're going to get through this. Like, there's a mental health aspect of that that is really calming.

And also breaking through that narrative, though, that sex equals all closeness. Sex is one form of closeness. But because of how many men grew up, they didn't get to put sex and love together.

Right.

Sex was separate. Orgasms were separate. Women are often taught.

Oh, they're not. I'm just kidding.

Women are taught love first and then sex.

Yeah.

And.

Or that love is sex.

Yes. So then that. That's tricky then, because then you're coming together with two different experiences. So then it's the. We're having a fight, but we're not necessarily having sex. How else are we feeling? Close together through the let's get out that game we like to play. Let's.

Did you order our Scrabble? You said you were gonna order.

Yes, I did.

No cook beside each other. Right. We do that and share all the things. Maybe not chicken next time, but y.

It was really good chicken.

I do some. Something that's important just to. Not to go on about it, but the thing of, in our film, normalizing, like the conflicts that, that we had. I think what we took out of it was like, you have to find your music. Like that. We make music together.

We make music.

But. And I love. And I love that. And it's incredible. But honestly, like going on a walk together with our dogs after dinner, things like that are. I look forward to it because you are connecting. Even if we don't talk. Like, it's.

Yeah.

It's like it's a commitment thing. It's incredible.

All right. I'm sorry that I babbled on with regard to the dredging. I just do want to add to. Do you see what happened there? When I started to talk about the drudge and how therapy doesn't work because of the Drudge, he was gone.

No, I was trying to figure out, like, we're talking about how to get men into it and.

But you and me, we thought that that was like.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think she does.

I can see both. I see both end.

But the point is that, like, that's annoying. Like, I think for him that's going off topic. And men are wired differently than women. And one of the things that I have been really, really working on within myself and I. He'll say, really? Oh, this is great. Are you really? Because I probably have made incremental tiny steps forward. But at some point, you know, it's important that you accept that your partner is not everything. Everyone, all that you are, every step, you're growing and changing. Perimenopause, menopause. Like. Like my brain pathology is literally reforming now and I have millions of deaths happening in my body and probably primal grief. I mean, well, sorry.

And it's not, you know, we're not prepared for this because we didn't know. We didn't.

Didn't know. Did not sign up for that. No, we did not. And so, yeah, like, I signed up to be your sexy, you know, hot, bosomed partner. And look at what happened. My children sucked it all away. And I'm a different lady now. And I. I freak out now.

Yeah.

I used to be. Like, I would never, two, three, four years ago have walked away and said, you're all a bunch of goddamn snowflakes. I would never. Had the spine.

No.

Ever.

Well, I mean, if we were to side rail into harm, we won't go into the hormones and what's happening for women and that. But there is so there's almost this piece in here that we're touching on, which is what it means to be parents together. And when. Then you think we're not gonna trudge through all the stuff, but what was modeled to us.

Sure.

And then how we're trying to do differently with our kids. And I know people will instantly say, book for parents. Yes, I'll get the book for, for how to be a better parent. But then when the marriage book is right beside it, guess which one they're more likely to choose.

Well, it's interesting because I don't like. I think they're both the same. Like I said, again, I think it's all about the, the breakdowns we have as people, as humans. It's communication. Right. So there's no. I don't think that. I don't.

Delineation between.

They're the same thing. They're all the same. And so. And I also think you can't be great parents if you're not connected and you're not modeling that within your house any, you know, that, that, that's step one is to show that this is what a healthy relationship is, and that's. We should have this as well. When your mom and I are angry, our kids, when they see us doing our podcast or talking about stuff or going through conflict, that's awesome. I think, like, that's awesome. Trying to tell them that is way different than them, like, observing it and saying, whoa, maybe when I have a fight with my girlfriend, this is how we should.

Yeah. I think it's subconscious. It's earworm stuff probably. You know, because, like, our oldest still thinks that we're totally out of touch and we get everything.

But he doesn't, he says that because.

You know, it's a form of.

Yeah.

Post pubescent manipulation.

Yeah. I, I, I, I truly feel like they've, they've been able to. Same way some of our fans have said the same thing. Yeah, it's just like, it's, you're modeling it. It's like, how can you not.

We're all modeling to each other, aren't we? Right?

We're all influencing each other. We all grow, we all change every day. It's a chance. And I often think of trees and how the moment is. Am I going to turn towards you and grow my branches towards you? In these moments, you know, you think of our roots or our history, but it's really the choices every single day. And it's so small. Right. You think about fighting, about chicken. It's just, just the smallest little moment. It's not the big conflicts that break.

Couples I shouldn't go to. Well, I had to grow thick skin for the past three, almost 30 years about too much garlic, too little salt and all the things. And here we are. Instead, it should have simply been, whoa, okay, he's probably not in a great mood right now, and he's hurt. And that's really like. Dr. John really brought us back to that understanding of like the core feeling hurt and pain is just hurt and alone. Yeah, hurt and alone. That's it. Unlovable, hurt, alone, like just very. It's just a very small. It all roads lead back to.

Absolutely.

And so how can I, in that moment, if I could just remember that, how could I be a good partner in this moment?

Yeah.

Serve my partner and take. Remove my own self.

Life is so dynamic. It's so stressful. I think that's why the pause thing is so important, like, not to go back to it again. But like, that say that can save everything, just pausing. If you can both commit to that, reframe things, take a breath, realize through. You know, it's like, it's what everyone always said, count to 10. You know, I think that's hard to do in the moment. Well, no, but it, but it's hard to like, actually take because it takes time. Where I think pause is brilliant because actually, since you say I just need to pause, it like diffuses everything for a minute and it gives you time to, to heal, even on your own and come back to a. A conflict in a much, much more healthy manner.

One of the challenges for myself as that more blamer, externalizer, fast thinker, I think really quickly, and so I can process things faster than Greg. And so I've had to really learn to slow myself down and give him space. Because sometimes I'll be sitting there thinking, just say it already. Like it's in there. I know it's there. I know what you're feeling. Just say it already. And it's hard because I have to remember he's different than I am. We're going to experience emotions in the world differently. And it's okay if he doesn't do it in the way that I do, but it, it is this. Like, I have to slow down. And that's so hard.

I. I made a conscious effort starting several, I think, years ago now, to slow down. And the way that I do it is I actually, especially during conflict or in moments when I'm feeling overwhelmed with the thoughts going too quick. So what I do is I actually lower my voice consciously and I actually slow the words that I'm saying down. And I am amazed how that speaks to a conflict we're having resolving quicker. I actually put it to the test. Sometimes I say to myself as it is starting, if I can, you know, you don't always get that little catch. But I'll say, okay, when I respond right now, I'm going to do so in a. As neutral a tone I can find that is gentle, that is non.

Informative, like just like kind of neutral. And I'm gonna slow my words and let's see. And it's amazing. Sometimes it's just resolve right there and then.

Yeah, I think we're meant to help each other. Like. Yeah. I go back to. There's a. Oh yeah, the Seinfeld episode where he finally meets like himself in a woman, the perfect person, like exactly like him. It doesn't work out right. Because that's not.

Oh, I remember that.

It's not even bo. It's just like, yeah, there's no chance of evolution if you're exactly the same. So the fact that you know the. And I know there's theories about, you.

Know, opposites attract, but she's your mirror. She's mirroring back to stuff that you're working through.

And John says that I love that if you come together, maximizer, minimizer. The hope nature has, because nature seeks neutrality, is that within a life cycle together you will become more like a. Each other and. And in the end, you know, have grown that, you know, calm together. Right.

So there's hope for us to be more calm.

Yeah.

I love that. And it's the. It's this idea, and we know this from the Gottman's research as well, is that partners who influence each other and allow for influence are open.

Yeah.

They're more satisfied at follow up and it's more true, it's more impactful for men when they allow their partners to influence. So that was kind of not. Not for me, it's the research, but it is, it's kind of interesting. There's one piece here that I think is so worth touching on in the sense of your own autonomy. Because when we think about intimacy and healthy relationships, part of that is intimacy and interconnectedness, but then also autonomy. And I'm curious how you have both evolved with that or balanced it.

I feel like some of it is luck. When I met Rain, I was really on my path as a solo artist, career woman. And he had a thing. So, you know. No, Yoko knows Here. And he, you know, we really liked what we saw each other doing. We were sort of. I. If I might say so, we were kind of like fans of what each other was up to and watching each other and it was nice. Yeah.

I think then I, I think we were getting about. The independence part is really critical, I think.

But inter. Interdependent, as opposed to.

Yeah.

Codependent or right.

And interdependence is the balance of interconnectedness and intimacy. That's it. And autonomy and independence. Because when you lose yourself and the other person, it is a natural pushing against each other. You actually don't want it.

What did you say earlier that was. That really spoke to this about. You just said it about the. Oh, man.

I, I really. I. On the creative side, I look at it very much in a parallel way where, you know, I can't sit here and record new music if I haven't gone out there and done things and lived life and being able to bring that back to the, to the songs. And I think relationships are the same way where, you know, if, if you don't have that. That independence or the interdependence, then it's. It just, it's just. I think growth kind of stagnates a bit.

Yeah. To grow, you need to have. You need to leave and come back.

Not, not on like a nine week tour like happened this summer, which was not good. But, but the idea of, hey, we're growing. You're growing yourself. So you, you bring that freshness into relationships.

Do you think we've gotten past the. I. He was gone like eight or nine weeks and it. Yeah, it's almost taken eight or nine weeks to heal from that and get.

That's not true.

Well, for you. But it was, you know.

Well, you just want to wait for three weeks. It was fine. Yeah.

Because it's not nine. And I was with our son for part of it and you know, your. I had lunch with your sister. You know what I mean? Like, it was stuff. But yeah, I, I think that. Yeah, you're just doing blow and hanging out with. No, I think that interdependency is. Oh yeah. When reigns. I know what it was. He said, you know, each couple sort of has to find their music.

Yeah.

Right. And this is another value that really got instilled in me from. From John and from. From the Imago Institute's values and that is that.

When each couple should find something in which they are a team, something that is just for them. Like, I have these friends in Winnipeg that just inspire me so much. Back in my hometown, they sail together and they, they go every two weeks and they leave for three or four nights, and they're off in this island or that, and they sail and, and, and they're, they're real. They do this together. But she is an occupational therapist and he's an accountant. But this is their thing together. But the thing is that when you do try to find your music, whatever that is, the equity is important, because if it's a, it's the hubby going, hey, honey, well, I'm going to teach you how to golf. That's him. Once again, it's patriarchal. It's a little bit, you know, patronizing. It needs to be something that you discover together. And every time Rain and I work together, ugh, like, it's luck with us. But thank God we figured it out. Like, oh, by the way, we're a duo. Who would have thunk it? Because we really do get that discovery piece together. So I think that discovery, even as an individual, without being a couple with someone, you know, in life, if you're not in that discovery place, I think you do get stagnant. But as a couple, finding a point of entry to discovery is, I just think, integral.

I love that I, I could sit here and chat relationships all day with both of you.

I love it. It's a review.

You know what I mean?

It's, it's such a review in what those values are. So I really appreciate the conversation.

If you could leave people with one thing that you wish you had have learned earlier, what would that be?

Right. I mean, I, I feel like it's redundant at this point. The catch, pause repair part of it, like, that understanding that CPR concept's amazing. I will say the thing that changed my life was eye gazing. You know, the idea of being able to sit across from your partner and just quietly and closely look into their eyes for, like 30 seconds or 60 seconds still terrifies me. But there is, I don't, I don't know if. And maybe it's, maybe it's a guy thing. Maybe it's just a me thing. There is nothing more vulnerable and magical at the same time than going through that exercise.

Couples do not. Like when I get them to do that in my therapy room, like, oh, yeah.

And that takes you down.

Oh, it, the, the magic, though. The magic that comes out of it. I, I, I'm, I'm never going to forget this couple who just, they were raging at each other. They hadn't spoken all week. We did it. And then after, they're both in tears. Understanding something different about each other. That's powerful.

Yeah, I thought it was. It's always been, like, a bit of a cliche that it. You know, your eyes are a channel to your soul, but they really are. And. And with that simple, crazy exercise, it's like, I think you'll know either way. Like, I actually really deeply care and want to take care of this person. Or maybe you don't.

Mine is that I remember just the, like, terror, The. The debilitating fear of being exposed by doing work together. And honestly, I could cry because I know I would not be married to this person, and I wouldn't know how to be married in all these iterations of. Of myself, of as us, as a family if we had not done that work. And if I could go back, I would. I would do it sooner. I did before I was married. I would do it when I got married. And my wish for everyone is that, you know, if you have that fear or there's something stopping you, just don't think, go and do it, because you will have a better quality of life. And you. There's so much more hope by doing just some simple work. It may seem tough, but it's amazing. You will connect with your partner and yourself.

Yeah.

Those two pieces are so good. Just do this work and then look into each other's eyes. Ground yourself and the other person. You guys, thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Congrats on the book.

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

Thank you.