The Decluttering Breakthrough Moms Need

Today I'm sitting with Katie Wells and she is a leading voice in the decluttering space, known for redefining how families approach their homes with more clarity, ease and compassion. She is the host of the top rated podcast the maximalized Minimalist, which has surpassed 5 million downloads and reaches listeners around the world. Katie is recognized for offering a refreshing real life alternative to the exhausting do more, try harder approach that that has dominated the home space for decades. In this episode we talk about her heartfelt story of why decluttering became so important in her family. Why traditional methods don't stick, the four types of clutter, which is eye opening and the tricky emotion of guilt that shows up for so many of us when it comes to decluttering. And Katie's new book, making home your happy place, a real life guide to decluttering without the overwhelm is available to order and you will want this one to help you deal with clutter, mess and the mental load of daily responsibility. You don't want to miss this book. It is going to be so good. I've got the links in the show notes, but let's go into today's episode. Katie, thank you for joining me here. I'm so glad to have you back on the podcast. You have been a guest before and I loved our conversation before and I know we're going to have so much to talk about.

Thank you. So excited to hang out with you again today.

You have a new book coming out called making home your happy place and I just know how much and for how long you've been supporting moms in your community and people in general creating good spaces. So let's even just start there. What inspired you to write this book? But maybe even the bigger picture is doing the work that you're doing.

Yeah, thanks. You know, like looking back at my journey, I typically always start with saying I was not born organized. I think that that helps because when I was buried in clutter and I used to go to the experts, they were all like, this is just how I am. And I'm like, wait, what? Like this is a skill you have, you know? And I immediately felt like I just wasn't ever going to organized enough or like this is some attainable aspirational, like declutter guru that like I can never be. And I feel like when we don't have that relatability there, at least I'll speak for myself. Like, it's hard to relate and take their advice, whether it's good, bad or neutral, to like, how do we apply that to our lives. So, gosh, years ago, I remember, I think a big crux for me that really made me drill into this is I remember standing at the doorway into my oldest son's room. He was about 2 at the time, and he was like, mommy, like, please will you play trains with me? And he was looking up at me with those eager eyes. And it was the end of the day. I had a long day at work, came home and I said no. I was like, not right now. Like, I have chores to do. And I, this was like my tenth time telling him no in like a matter of two hours. And like, I just burst into tears. Like it makes me cry just thinking about it. And like, I was so far away from the mom, like I thought I was gonna be. Like, I wanted to do these things. I wanted to play trains, build blocks, read extra bedtime stories. But I was so exhau. Exhausted from life. Plus coming home to another full time job, which was managing the house, like I had nothing left. And I was like, I am a no mom. Like, before my kids even get a question out, it was, no, not right now, I can't. And I hated it. And I realized in that moment, like, clutter isn't just stuff. It's truly stealing my time, it's stealing my energy, it's stealing my happiness. And like, look, I think presence gets thrown around a lot right now online. And it's like being the present mom. And I'm not saying it's all unicorns and rainbows on the backside, you know, now that I have way less clutter. But even still, early on, once I came up with holistic decluttering and started making progress, I started saying yes more often. And again, it's these small moments that add up and they compound over time. And I, My relationships improved, I became so much happier. But really, it took me going through trying all these strategies that simply weren't working at the time, that expected me to have endless hours of time, that expected me to like, I don't want to rainbow organize anything because I knew my kids were going to destroy it in hours. I didn't want to have to completely empty a room or a drawer. Like, I didn't have that time. And I got really overwhelmed when I saw the volume of things. So my background from a career perspective is in holistic wellness. And so our approach was like, heal the body from the inside out. Like, get to the root of it, right? So as I'm trying and failing these methods numerous times, over and over and Starting to think something's wrong with me. I thought, why don't I play that? Apply that same approach to clutter and start looking at it more holistically. Like my habits, my beliefs, my emotions, like, getting to the root of it, in addition to my shopping habits, which certainly weren't helping and which is also.

Connected to something deeper, too.

Yes, it's. It's deeper, right? And in those moments, it really started to shift again. My home stopped draining me. It wasn't overnight, but within weeks, even, especially months, I felt lighter. I really felt like after I became a mom and in those younger years, like, my bubbly personality had vanished. Like, I was just, like, angry in my home. And that's because our homes and our environments are the invisible hand that shape our behavior, our actions, how we respond to our kids. We've all know how we respond when we are triggered by clutter. Like, I do not show up as my best self. And although that slowly started to improve, melt away, felt like I could breathe again. And I became like this, yes, mom, right? And I remember, like, months later, my kid, when they asked me to play, even if my home wasn't perfectly tidy and there were still chores to be done, I was able to find more of that balance between. Katie, yes, I can play. Yes, I can play. I can wait five minutes, play with you. And then, so it was really like this huge, not only change in my home, but in between my ears. Right? And so now I'm so passionate about helping other families, women, parents, like, see. What I couldn't see for years is that clutter is a symptom. Right? And once you understand the root, everything changes.

I think so many people listening, myself included, sitting across from you, I can feel that inside. I can feel that moment, especially when my kids were young, and everything just felt like it was closing in on me when I'd be at home and I would be giving so much during the day to my clients, and I was regulated, very regulated throughout the day. My watch, I remember my watch at the time would tell me that I was less stressed in my office sitting across from trauma stories than when I would enter the home with my kids. And it's so tricky because I think there's just this very real reality of how we run our homes before kids and after kids, and maybe we didn't have the systems. I. I don't know. I think of when you said, like, you weren't organized. I think of one of my kids, like, they're not organized. And I can see the struggle and Then when I enter into their space, I feel that struggle as well with them. But it really just this very real experience that it's so easy to. To feel that sense of overwhelm and then want to go to something that we can control and in order, in order to play. I think even this is an important piece. When we look at our children who are playing, why do they play? They play because they feel safe. They feel safe in your home, in their home, in your home. They feel safe in your presence that allows them to play. It's the same for adults and couples. So if you don't feel safe together as a couple or you don't feel like you're NER and using the word safe is like this broad word, but in the sense of like safety, being soothed and calm. Our nervous systems are regulated. If we don't feel that, how do we even enter play? And that I think is where it like all trinkles together.

Yeah, and to pull on that thread too. A UCLA study done many years ago now found that women who describe their homes as either cluttered or. Or messy have elevated levels of cortisol throughout the day, meaning, I mean, cortisol spikes in the morning. And then for those who aren't surrounded by clutter, it tends to go down, right? So it's like you're staying your stress hormone, staying in this low grade fight or flight. That's our nervous system, you know, speaking to your point there. And this is why, you know, it matters. And I think too, I really think culture is a big reason why this happens, right? Like when women see clutter as opposed to men, right. This study didn't show men reacted that way. So why is it us women, obviously, obviously, it's a loaded question. But I feel like so many of us, I've experienced this too. Like I don't see just clutter and piles like I'm attaching meaning to it. And also we see where our partner might see a pile. I see 47 unmade decisions that I have to do one day, right? This cognitive labor and invisible load. This is why I say, like, clutter can feel like this visible expression of the invisible load and can create resentment, anger, right? Just unhappiness in our relationships where our partner. And it's not always male, you know, and female, it's not always oriented that way. But they might not see or they see a message, right? I don't care. Like, my family is messy. They don't care about me. I'm the only one that cares. Or I I used to think, man, I really stink at this. I'll never be organized. I stink at homemaking, whatever. And when we're stuck in that place of shame, resentment, and anger, we don't feel like there even is hope, right? We're like, forget it. Like, I remember telling my husband, I guess will just try to, like, have a tidier home when the kids are 18 and moved out, thinking that was.

The only reason to endure 18 years. But I was all right like that.

I know, right?

Just fatigue out.

Fatigue out, yes. And that is. That's the thing with clutter, right? Every object in your home, don't just look at it. I think a lot of us think, like, oh, yeah, I can see it's stressful. It's annoying. But I think a lot of us come back to. It's this very, like, kind of passive thing. But if you. If you look at stuff in your home not as stuff, but as magnets for your attention, and knowing that the average American home has over 300,000 items in it now. Let me reframe that. 300,000 magnets for your attention. It hits a little different, right? It's like, no wonder. No wonder. Like, I get, like, goosebumps. I. I used to turn into, like, ragey angry the second I walked through my door because I saw all that clutter, all those delayed decisions and the meaning attached to it. I sink at this. I'll never have time. My kids are ruining my life. Like, whatever. It can go so many different, direct. And I was like, oh, one of.

The hotspots for us that we've continued to try to find a system, and it's not all on me. And something I'm trying to let go, but you're making such a good point. Is that when I see the thing, I go to a hundred thousand things. So it's around receipts. And of course, Greg and I are in business together. And so he's the behind the scenes, the accountant. Bookkeeping work. Like, all of that work is his. And so the receipts then show up. And so it's not just about seeing the receipt, because then if a piece of mail comes in and maybe it's a catalog that he wants to look at, it's piled with the receipts. And then I think about all of the holiday Christmas items that I have to. Again, I have to. I have to buy. And then it's the okay, what are we doing for the Christmas list. And that it's. You've just labeled it. So clearly they are magnets for our attention. And inevitably, I think this is, this is a hard truth and it's not a blaming statement for men. But the hard truth is that my mind works differently.

Yes.

And women's minds work differently than men and we struggle to navigate that. So I. Anyways, I won't go into the mental cognitive load piece, but I think that's important. And I wonder, Katie, one of the things that I know so many people try to do is they try to purge, they try to implement systems. But I wonder from the work you've done for yourself and also what you teach people, why do these systems not stick? And I might be asking for myself because I can't figure out why our receipt system doesn't stick. So I'm mining for the answer here and I can't wait to get your bug, which is for people just joining. It's making home your happy place. I need the answer.

Yes. Okay, so I'm going to give you, I want to start with three reasons. Like traditional decluttering advice often fails us, but I think for your particular situation, it's, it's, it's less like heady. Okay, so number one, what I found throughout the years and inspired me to create holistic decluttering to begin with is that again, it's so many, so many methods out there focus on the surface level stuff and I focus on the person. Right. Other methods tell you how to fold it, how to organize it, the best bins, the best labels. But what about that box you're too afraid to open? What about when you open your kitchen gadget drawer and you go to declutter and you're paralyzed by overwhelm? What if you reach something, pick it up, you know it's clutter. You're like, yeah, I know it's clutter. I know what Katie would tell me to do. But this could be useful one day. But this costs $40. I don't want to let it go. And back in the drawer it goes. And they treat all clutter the same, right? And I get it. Like everyone loves the one off like the spark joy. And I'm not knocking any methods out there, but I think when we expect one question or one piece of advice to universally speak to all types of clutter, we are going to end up with failure and frustration every single time. Like not all clutter speaking to that is created equal. Some is superficial, some is fear based, some is grief based, identity based. Like it runs deep. Now for receipts, not so much. But every, every clutter type needs a different tool. So along the way, I Came up with kind of identifying and bringing awareness to the four clutter types. When you use the wrong tool, you end up blaming yourself almost every single time.

I have no problem at this point with my kids 8 and 10 getting rid of their clothes. Purging clothes, easy to do. In, out, in, out.

Yes.

I love gifting it to the younger kids in our lives. Right. But go to my box in the closet. Each kid has two boxes and there's that. I've tried to purge it a few times already. There's that onesie from when they were six months old. There's that one from when they're two year old. So that's one. And then my husband still has some trophies from his soccer days. His early. Right. The kids got the trophies. They're now in my kid's room. I don't know why, but you know, and so like there's a sentimental piece to it. And then we have books. Oh, Katie, we have. I have a File still of PhD research. I already, I got rid of 40 pounds of paper from my PhD and I still have a box. And I'm thinking, but what if I want to look up that attachment study by Simpson et Al in 1990. What if I want the details of it? Katie, I have not touched that box since I finished my PhD in 2012.

Yeah, I hear you and I'm so glad you bring this up. So with the four clutter types too, I just want to reiterate, it's not about like opening a drawer and being like, what clutter type is this? Like, you'll know when you say exactly what you said out loud. And it can be multiple kind of clutter types woven into each other. So what I'm hearing is these sentimental items and identity based items. So an identity based can be the sneakiest. And no one talks about this, so I love bringing it up. And especially dovetailing with your questions here is it can be so sneaky because it's items attached to who we were and think about all the seasons in life. And like, it's funny you said he kept the trophies in the kids room because my husband and I really preserved that. We each had trophy. Mine was bigger. Mine was bigger than my husband's. So I always was like, mine's better. I'm not immature at all. And so I displayed that as a way to have that item do what I wanted it to do with the meaning that I kept assigning to it. It made me feel good. My kids liked it. They were like, cool, mom's trophy and then my other kid got. My dad had, you know, my husband's trophies. And that really, really meant a lot to me until really just a few years ago. This is a trophy I've had since I, I was 10. It was like the only trophy I ever got. So it makes it more special. Right. And it reminded me of when I was the fastest person in my tri state area and all these things. And I was so proud of myself. I remember how my parents felt when I got that trophy. It's like, again, the meaning and the feelings associated with it and I was proud of that. And then, like, it broke. Like, I picked it up to dust around it and it like crumbled into pieces. And I was like, I don't even care. I don't care. Like, I've moved on. And, you know, the answer isn't always letting go. I'm not saying that all decisions should lead to you letting go. Sometimes the next right step is repurposing the item, putting it out like your husband did. I love that. And you know, and we love. Yeah, they do in this season.

And I recognize that's probably going to change over time.

Yeah. So for identity clutter, and you can really apply this towards sentimental clutter too. I use kind of three different S words. So story, season, self. So you can start by asking yourself, you know, looking at your trophies or your PhD papers, where you're like, our brain's really good at justifying all the reasons to keep it. What if I want to look it up? Right. So what story have I tied to this item? And is it one that I still want to live? So my guess is, and I don't know for sure because I'm not in your head that a story you might be telling yourself is, if I let this last box of paper go, does it mean, like, did that even happen? Where does it. Where's the physical representation and symbolism of some of the hardest, most fulfilling, purposeful, intense blood, sweat and tears years of my life? Where is that physical representation go? You know that. And so that story, we. It's not like ruminating, we're not like thinking about it every morning when we wake up, but kind of pulling that thread and getting it to the forefront of your mind to go, like, is this story true? Right. Is it true that whatever I'm thinking is going to happen if I let these, this box of papers go season? So season is. Does this fit my season of life right now, again, speaking to the different seasons of motherhood and life and careers and moving across the country and all these different things. Sometimes we're just in a different season. I'll give you an example. I once bought a pair of running shoes in hopes of running a marathon. This was pre kids. I bought these shoes, and my husband's a runner, and he was like, you only use these shoes for running. That's the rule. You don't use them for walking, anything else. So I had kids and I didn't ever train for my marathon because I was busy, right? I was in a different season. Yet every time I walked into my closet to get dressed, I saw those shoes and I was. It reminded me of I hadn't done what I told myself I was gonna do. And it really always left me with a little singe of disappointment about myself. And also, too, I was in that season where I was like, I'm never gonna get out. My kids are gonna be young forever. I'm gonna be covered in poop and spit up forever, right? And so I was just like, that was the story in season. And so in that mom, like, I'm not in the season where I'm willing to run a marathon. I'm going to put that dream to rest and I'm going to give myself a new one. And I was like, even though these are running shoes, I can still run in them. I can break the rules. So those became my, like, stroll, like taking the kids, putting them in the stroller. Those became my walking shoes. And all of a sudden they went from. Reminded me of something and, you know, gap between my reality and the expectation into these were no longer clutter because they were actively being used. They were supporting me, my life, my goals. And that just a switch I made in my head. And that is so powerful. And then the final one, if you even get there in the little framework, is self. Does this align with who I am today or who I. Who someone told me I should be, who I want to be? And so I think those three questions, and sometimes just one of them, right. Can help you cut through really fast.

When I think of that box, it is that sense of. I mean, first, I often ask myself, well, what if I want to write this big, long research paper on. Right? And because access to journals is so difficult, I tell myself, myself that I'm still going to need it in some way. I'm not. And the reality is I don't do research anymore. That's not who I am. So it is kind of connected to my identity, to the change in my identity from who I was before. And then also the Other piece is, yeah, that was a hard season in my life. And if I let go of it, does anyone. Do I have proof of it? Of course I do. But, yeah, it's really interesting. I really love those three S's and how it's like, okay, can we understand what this is? I. I wonder if we could connect this into the idea of whether this was a gift or it was expensive or what if I need it someday? Like, how do you move through some of those thoughts? And I know so many people can relate to that, you know, especially the. The gift piece.

Oh, gift piece. Yes.

So there's something attached to morality in there, isn't it?

Like, oh, yeah.

And you watch, you're given this family painting, and you're like, oh, okay, well, red's not really my color scheme in my house. And then you hang it up because that's what you're supposed do to. Supposed to do. And then every time you look at it, like, yeah.

And so I think, again, speaking to. I think defining the issue, I feel like a lot of things that we say are sentimental, like they came from Aunt Karen or they came from your partner, and we keep them, but we don't use them because we don't like them. Like, oh, it's sentimental, but really at the heart of it, if you just ask yourself this one question, you'll know if it's truly sentimental or not. And that is, if it weren't for the guilt, would I still keep this? So really, and I talk more about this in the book, guilt clutter tends to masquerade as sentimental and at the crux, at the heart, at the root of it, we, so many of us struggle to let go of this because of the meaning we're assigning. The action of letting go. Right.

I'm so.

Yes.

I'm like. Just that. I want to sink into that guilt a bit more. What if they die?

What.

What if they're no longer here? How will I remember them? Yeah, you see? Or it's like, what it. Or even that's like kind of the. The. The worst case scenario. Or what if they come over and ask about it and I don't have it anymore?

I mean, you know your family best. I will say I personally decided in my journey that my progress. I wasn't going to let it hinge on other people's expectation of me. And, boy, do we have so much clutter in our lives because of that. Right. You know, the reality is, think about when you give someone A gift, Dr. Tracy. Think of the meaning behind that gift. This is a gift to show you I appreciate you, I love you. You've done something for me. Like it brings tears to my eyes. Like, like, you know, we have the holidays coming up or just wrapped up, depending on when this is coming out. And it's like, think about gifts you received and like, you know, like it's about connection. I would never expect you to keep a gift if it was burdening you now. Well, Aunt Karen twice removed care when she comes over for family dinner and asked you where that scarf she gave you from 2006. Maybe.

But maybe it's your mother in law who picked out.

Yeah, there you go.

Knowing that red is absolutely not your color. But she picked it out anyways because every year she gets you the red thing. That's not my mother in law by the way. I've heard of, you know. Yes, I'm sure she chooses the worst gift and gives it to me and then expects.

It's true. It's true. And again, that's, that's your lane, not mine. I feel like. I know you have great advice. You were on my show, we talked about this. But I think just like you have to do what is best for you and sometimes that might mean keeping in a box for a few years until they forget about it. Fine, whatever. I mean, the reality is decluttering doesn't happen all at once. It happens in layers. It's a skill. And just like, you know, I often use the analogy of like working out. When you go to start working out and lifting weights, you don't start with by picking up a 50 pound dumbbell, you start with like a five. Right. And so we start with the easiest clutter, the superficial clutter where there's no attach, no what ifs. And then we kind of, you know, grow that muscle through repetition and heading into the deeper clutter with the right tools. But I think just understanding the intention behind gift giving and also to the piece you mentioned about morality, like, you are not a bad person for not wanting your grandma's china that you inherited from her. And to the point of like, well, what if she passes? Or what if, you know? And it's like, well, you could ask yourself, is there any other way I could honor my grandmother through a physical means? I mean, the reality is we all, a lot of us have other things from our loved ones that we can put in a box and open once a year. And if that's what you want to do, fine, to remember them, remember the gesture, whatever. But maybe it's like Hanging a recipe that you used to bake together, like what's more meaningful to you? Or the scarf she gave you that's not your color that you really don't like. You appreciated the gesture. But I think again, the math ain't mathing. When we're equating like moral failure or like I'm a bad person because I don't want this. It doesn't mean you don't appreciate the gift giver or the thought behind it.

Yeah, I think that. But that also bumps up against some generational pieces as well.

Oh gosh, yes.

How we're seeing it differently. I was gifted something really lovely for my parents that actually comes from my grandmother. And it is a truly special item at, at this point, there's two choices. One, I let my 8 year old play with it and there's a choice that she could, like there's a potential. She could break it. It's a tea set and it's beautiful. It was my grandmother's when she was a kid. So it's 85 years old and super special. And at the same time I could save it for maybe my daughter to bring out, I don't know. So it's, it's tricky because I can think of some of these items in boxes and they do start to build up over time because of stuff. Right. And then our own stuff too. So I do think what I, I really appreciate how we look at classifying it, how we also look at the stories of it. And then we also have to really identify the guilt because that doesn't help us move forward. And it's interesting too. So from a clinical perspective, when I think about my clients who come to me sharing guilt, I often think of guilt as two values conflicting. And because of that bumping and that tension between two values, that's the guilt that you feel. So that value in a way almost of living a clutter free home, of looking after your nervous system, of feeling good in your space, bumps up against the value of family tradition, generational offerings. But I really love the image here that you've offered too of like, you know, maybe it's not the scarf or the tea set or whatever it is. Maybe it's that banana loaf recipe that you put in a frame because you remember making it together. Like that's, that's really meaningful.

See, and I feel like, like if we want to get, give it like a super simplified strategy. One of my favorite kind of mindsets, especially with this like deeper clutter, sentimental identity, is the thought of. So I Love museums. I could like live in a museum, but like not a Pinterest perfect museum. We're spoon fed on Instagram. Not like that, but like, I love art. And when you walk into a museum, what you are seeing is a story being told through curation. Right. The museum curator had hundreds if not thousands of prints from the artist, artists, and they're trying to tell you a story with clarity. And so when you look at these art pieces and like tears come to your eyes and the emotions, happiness. Oh my gosh, it's just beautiful. It speaks to my soul. Then why not apply that same philosophy to our homes? And if everything is special, then nothing really is. So a very tangible piece you can bring into this. This, because it sounds, it's like a great bumper sticker. But then when you're like opening the box of stuff, you're like, oh, well, I don't know, how do I, how do I gauge? And even in this hypothetical situation where you're like, the banana bread loaf recipe, my heart sang, I was like, oh, I feel that. I used to bake with my grandma. We have some great recipes, you know, that I've preserved. Not in a frame, but I have them on my computer. That works for me, you know, and, and from a scale of just object bringing objectivity in it, like 1 to 10. The heart and body do not lie. So that was a 10 for me. That sounded really aligned. That sounded like a great option if I had a box of all this stuff for my grandma, handwritten notes, recipes, whatever that could be. And you could just rate stuff 1 to 10. One is like, I literally didn't feel anything. This doesn't mean anything to me anymore. 10. You want to like curate your eights, nines and tens.

I often think about stories and the generational passing of stories.

Yeah.

And how the stories mean more than keeping that extra outfit. One of the common challenges that shows up in my community is where parents will say, hey, mom, only one gift for our kid this year. Or please don't keep buying things. Every time you see the kids, that shows up a lot. And I think what I hear you saying is we can accept the gift. We can give feedback, let people know. Yes. But also can't control others. Right. And so if your mother in law continues, I'm looping it back to my book. If, if she continues to show up with the gift for the kids, we give her the generous interpretation. This is how she shows love. And ultimately then you get to choose what you do with it after. And sometimes that might Be about talking to your kids and saying, we have so much and we're going to donate this so another kid can feel the joy with it. We don't need it.

Yes. It's so true. And I, I wholeheartedly, when you came onto my show and shared that, I was like, light bulb. Like, like so many people need, need to hear this because there is a point where you can feel helpless. And again, like, generous interpretation. I really enjoyed that terminology. Like, okay, is she. This is still my. I'm still choosing to believe in this generous interpretation of it's about love and connection, even though I've told her 8,000 times, you know, so it goes deep.

Not going to change. That's how she's doing it. I think there's a lot of attachment in there, too. For people. There's this kind of. Sometimes an older generation feels like, well, I didn't get to have these things as a kid, or I didn't get to do this with my kids. And now with grandkids, I want do it. And there's so much meaning behind stuff. Gift giving, the actions and when we really go to the meaning and values. I'm sorry. If people are listening and they hear some background noise. My dog is sitting in my lab and because Lachlan is 12, he snores. I'm trying to.

Is that like old man and dog ears or what? That's so sweet, Katie.

I'm thinking for people who are in this kind of New year excitement, we in the first month. Month, and I know people are eager to change things. And so we're not doing New Year, new you stuff, but we're doing intentionality, alignment with what matters most to you. And I wonder what would be one or two tweaks that people could do in their environment just to help make a difference.

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Besides getting your book. Getting your book.

Yes.

Making home your happy place. It's coming out February 17th. Get the book. But just to give us a little taste of what can we start doing?

Okay. Something you can literally implement today if you haven't already done this. And here's why I could skip straight to the habit. I'll give you a habit as step two. But really, when thinking about the easiest way to make something a new habit is to look at your environment and helping your environment shape the habit you want to have to reduce the friction. So what I mean by that is a great option. I start every single one of my clients off with this. Is to set up a permanent donation station in your Home. At least one to start with. If you have a multi level home, one on each floor is great. I have a two or three level home and I have one in each kid's bedroom, one in my closet. So I think, like, you can add more as needed. But here's why this is important. You need to give yourself less friction when you come across clutter in your normal everyday routine. We have hundreds of opportunities when we're resetting the kitchen, when we're putting clean clothes away from our kids, like, hey, this is too small. And what do we say? I don't have time for this right now. I'll handle it later. We delay the decision, make it a whole big task. We make it a big task because we're like, I don't have a free weekend because that's what we've been sold. Right. I need a free weekend to make progress or it's not worth it. Right? Big sweeping, change or nothing. All or nothing. Thinking certainly doesn't help us. But when you have a donation station, it could be literally a cardboard Amazon box you haven't broken down yet, like a garbage bag on a hook. Shop your house, you already have something. When you have a dedicated spot for that that's both visible and accessible. Because if it's hidden away, we all know what happens. Out of sight, out of mind. It's a very true thing. Then you can immediately dump it into that donation station. Okay? That is the biggest thing is that. Again, speaking to. I think James Clear said it. Environment is the invisible hand that shapes human behavior. Make it easy to do what you want to do. And of course, once that donation station fills up, up, and once you start seeing, like, I will never forget, I had a client once. She's like. And I think, I think a lot of us have thought that. She's like, it's not me, it's my husband. He's got all the clutter. So for years she nagged. And I say that in a loving way, of course. You know, like, and I'm trusting therapist. I know you're like, been there for that, right? She, she's like, it's your stuff. And I said this to my husband for years too, when really I didn't touch my stuff. It was him that was a problem, right? I'm like, like. So for years tried all these strategies. Nothing worked. And I said, does he have a donation station somewhere near his clothes? His clothes were a big thing. And she's like, no, I had one in the garage. And I'm like, well, where is the garage. She's like, on the next level through three doors. I'm like, okay, so put literally a box next to his dresser. And she said, hey, honey, donations. This is a donation station. As soon as. If you spot any clutter, put it in there. And then, you know, we'll head. We'll head to Goodwill once a month. Month. That's all she said. And at the end of the day, she came upstairs, opened his closet. It was full. It was full. Why? Because he had an easy vehicle.

He had a place to put it there. Selecting something and thinking, no, done, done, done, yes, there in the box.

And I'm not saying that's all it takes 100 of the time, but that is a great starting point. And then really the habit that goes along with that, that makes progress in seconds instead of weekends, is what I call clutter audit. So clutter audit is where you are scanning your environment as you're doing normal household chores. You're brushing your teeth. You spot a skin care product you don't use anymore, right. Add it to your donation station. You're putting clean dishes away. Every morning I unload my dishwasher, you're putting the mugs back into your cabinet. That's an opportunity to go, oh, that mug is chipped back there. And I hate that. I don't like that. Into your donation station or trash or recycle. Right? Putting the kids clothes away. You get the idea. Cleaning if you buy, if you have to bypass 14 other cleaning products to get to the one you actually use, These are all moments where literally it stacks up to two clutter audits a day, five things a day. At the end of your month, you've let go of 50 to 150 things without breaking a sweat, without overwhelm, without paralysis analysis, and without it being a separate to do. Right? And so just think bringing more intention into the clutter process. And when you have your donation station there, it makes it so seamless.

I love that. That is so good. And it is even those. So our school at the end of the year does a gifts of giving. And so they ask for little trinkets or costume jewelry, jewelry not being worn, any kind of toys that you're done with. So I have a bag, and throughout the year I collect those items. And sometimes it's a small stuffy that's been shoved under the couch for months and months. We move through it or something that's not being played with. And so we just put it in that and it's. It's great to have that station to help support movement of things. And when I was listening to you, I was also thinking of my, my creams and makeup section, where if I leave it for too long, I keep telling myself, well, I'm going to use it. And it's those stories and beliefs that I buy into that hold on to the things. And I know your book is going to help help so many people address that and move through this. And just to loop back to what we had said at the beginning, just to really feel like you can be that. Yes, Mom. To be connected with your family so that you can not feel those spikes of cortisol every time you enter your home or immediately waking up going into your kitchen. So, Katie, thank you so much for being here with us, for sharing this. I can't wait for your book to come out. And I'll ask you before we end, what is one thing that you do every single day that helps you to be well and connected with those you love?

Oh, that's such a great question. I would say just from a really tangible perspective, you know, and more in my niche, I guess we'll start. There are what I call resets. So reset is where you reset a space back to its baseline, tidiness level. You can do it anywhere from once a day to three times a day, depending on, you know, how you move about your home and what it needs. But I find that it just, just eases my brain. Even though it's not clutter, you're putting, you know, dishes away, you're clearing off the counters, it gives me, my brain a moment to breathe. Especially after we get home from school. I really want to engage with my kids as much as they want to engage with me. And I feel like even if it's normal, expected mess, if it's, if it builds and I take care of it, I'm much more able to have that breathing room to be engaged like I want to be. And then kind of from a, a different perspective, I have put more intention into just laughing with my kids. And I know that's a nervous system thing. Like, we have to feel comfortable in our environments and our bodies because play doesn't always feel comfortable to us as adults. Going deep here. Right. I've done a lot of work. Maybe you can tell. I used to feel really awkward playing and being silly because so many of us weren't allowed that as a kid. We had to grow up really fast. Right. And so kind of to heal that inner child of mine. And it just brings tears to my eyes like I'll just like have a joke prepared or like, I'll really, like, if we start laughing, I will really just lean into it. And Those like just 10 or 15 seconds literally make my day. And I feel so connected. And I'm healing my inner Katie and I'm like connecting on such a deep level with my kids in a way that, like, I know when they're 80, they're going to be trying to do that, you know, with their partners and their future grandkids.

Oh my goodness, Katie, it brings tears to my eyes just to hear you say that because it's, I see the holistic work that you do and that it's not just this kind of decluttering movement. It's this way of being and living life. And I just love that healing. I love the nurturing of your inner child and then also the passing of that onto your children. And it's so, so special. Thank you for showing up with me.

I'm.

You are always welcome back here on the podcast. You've been here before. I love our conversations. I just love what you're doing to support families and for people to heal and to feel good in their day to day lives. That is really what this is all about. And I hope everybody for listeners to understand pre ordering a book is everything. One of the best things is that it arrives sometimes you get it a little bit early before the actual release date. I know my book started showing up on people's doorstep on the Thursday before and I was so excited because I get to go in it before everybody else. So the best way to support Katie is to order her book. It's coming out February 17th. Making home your happy place. I can't wait to get my copy. I can't wait to go through it. And you know, not to point fingers, but maybe to nudge my husband to address some of those sentimental items that I did not list here on the podcast, but maybe I'll do a little bit of digging into my, my box of PhD papers as well.

That's right. I expect an update next time we chat.

We will do.

Dr.

This is, this is, this is the hardest part of working in the home is that it's like, you know, I often think of the, like, if you give a mouse a cookie that remember it, that's me. I, I'll go and get a snack. And then I open the cupboards, I'm like, oh, we should take out some of those mugs and then I bring them downstairs. Then I'm in my memory box and I'M looking, and then suddenly I'm out looking and crying over the, like, grade three picture of me that's all lined up with the other grade three.

I get it. So relatable. Yes.

Thank you, Katie. Thank you for being here.

Thank you.