The Hidden Crisis in Modern Marriage

Hey, Greg, here's something that happened in my Instagram community that I thought was so interesting that I wanted us to have this conversation here.

Okay, cool.

92% of people said yes when I asked them this question, which was, do you feel lonely in your relationship?

Yikes.

92%. That number floored me because I know there is this experience of loneliness in marriage today, in modern marriage, right? And at the same time, I thought, gosh, I didn't think it would, you know, 70% maybe. But this time I polled it, it was 92%.

I mean, it's not a scientific poll. There's lots of noise there. It's like, sure, people are there to probably following you because they're struggling.

So it's 100%, but still.

Yeah.

Anyways, so it really made me think, you know, the U.S. Surgeon General warning for 2023 was loneliness. It's something that I shared at my Yale presentation this past week talking about the paradox of partnership, which is that we think we find a person to spend our life with and we will never feel lonely. And yet here we are, here we are in long-term partnerships feeling more lonely than we ever have. And so loneliness isn't just this risk factor of you being by yourself and having a small social support network. Loneliness is now a risk factor when you're married. So that's what I wanted to have you here with me today to talk about loneliness in long-term relationships. For us specifically, it's marriage, right? But to also kind of peel back the curtain and talk about even those moments where we felt lonely in our marriage.

Yeah, I think it's been something we've recently like identified. Like, I think it's been there for a while, but I think you've kind of put this label to it in some of the work you've been doing. So I think that's been— that, that's allowing us to have a discussion about it.

Yes. So the term I'm really talking about that I want to put forward is relational loneliness. It almost sounds like they shouldn't go together.

Yeah, it's an oxymoron.

Yeah, relational loneliness. And so then what we're seeing in so much of what we talk about in our Instagram community and what we do with our More Than Roommates Challenge or our 30 Days Challenge is really about helping you be connected every single day so that you're not experiencing this drift. That happens between you and your partner?

Yeah, the, the feedback we get, like, in the roommates challenge specifically, when we, like, ask people their— the, the lingo, the pain point, for lack of a better term, it's almost hard to read, right? Because you're kind of like, oh God, it's tough out there.

Tell me about some of those responses that you, that you're holding in mind right now.

Um, so I'm going to think of specific ones. It's kind of two ships passing in the night. That's one that keeps coming, coming to mind. For me, it was just the volume of the responses, not necessarily the specifics, because they were somewhat generic in a way, but all we talk about is logistics, the kids, all the externalities of the priorities. You know, I'm kind of generalizing, but to me it was just the volume and almost the ease at which people shared that, right? Like, it must be bad if it just rolls off the tongue that easily.

So, I mean, I have a reframe for that. It's not that it's bad. I think you just micro-rolled your eyes at me, by the way. If people are watching YouTube, please confirm this for me. I don't think it's the ease at which it rolls off of somebody. I think it's the real pain that they feel. And the feeling of being seen in this community, that we're not here— I mean, we can talk about how to communicate better, we can talk about scripts for when your partner gets defensive, which we do.

We do, we do.

We have 10 scripts for how you can respond to your partner's defensiveness. We have that. That's important, right? And what are we really doing if we're not labeling this experience that so many people don't talk about? That's the part for me that really strikes it me.

So do you think it's the labeling of it that's the most important? Like, it's not that you're fighting, it's not, you know, it's not that you're feeling like roommates. It's the underlying thing that's happening.

Sure. Once we label something, then we can decide what to do with it. But if we refuse to name it, how do you then ever go on to heal it or to address it?

That makes sense.

So I wanted to start here by you and I sharing about a time in our own marriage for when it looked like we were drifting apart or two ships passing in the night and what that experience was like for both of us. So I'm going to ask you first.

Ask me what?

Where— when was it in our relationship that you felt that sense of relational loneliness?

I mean, there's been a few times, in all honesty. I mean, it's— we're not immune to it by any means.

What was happening in our life?

I think, you know, like I just mentioned, we tend to land on the logistics piece. I think there was a season where I was working every other weekend, every Saturday. It was just a function of my job at the time. Listen, everyone works different shifts these days. It's not to complain or poor me, but it was just a, a kind of lonely time. Like, I was kind of missing out on some of the family stuff. On the flip side of that, you were like struggling because you were having to parent by yourself, right? So I'm sure that maybe added to your loneliness, but it was just very— it was a time the kids were a certain age, quite young, not in school yet. So I think it's a very common experience. It was just kind of— we're kind of going through the motions, you're just kind of existing. That to me stands out as like And that would be like more of an extended period too. I'm sure there's been like, I have to think about it, but like more specific, like shorter times. But that's, that's a season for sure that was, and I think is kind of relatable. Not to state the obvious, but that's, that's kind of a big one.

I think that's a huge one. And that period is really interesting too, because I think we have to call something out. We were home at certain time points. For example, we would both be doing bedtimes maybe during the week, or we would have a meal together at least a few times a week as a family. So, or we would even be going to bed at the same time. So there was this sense of physical proximity, but then at the same sense though, there was this emotional loneliness, right?

The physical proximity is not necessarily the answer though, right?

It's not necessarily closeness. And I think this is what so many people are experiencing right now is that you sit in the couch, like here's the way I remember those early days is you've got this, you know, 6-month-old and 1.5-year-old, no, 2.5-year-old. And. You divide and conquer. Yeah, it's been a day. You work those long hours. I was at home parenting with the kids, and then we flop on the couch and we're like, oh, you know, we're together. We were close physically, but we just had no capacity to turn to each other and to really get to know what was happening inside of us. So you pick up your phone, and that is part of the modern marriage crux that our, you know, our parents didn't have to necessarily deal with.

No, they had to sit in awkward silence.

I think my mom, my mom would be knitting or crafting or something, right? Maybe while the TV was on. Or it just, it looked different in the sense that you could be entertained by— I think of, you know, even Mad Men. We were talking about the show Mad Men recently. You could be entertained by the television, but you weren't getting the same level of dopamine that you, you get today from the short-acting hits from your phone today. And I think that makes it completely different.

I think not in a good way.

Not in a good way. I think a lot of people can relate to that though, in the sense of, you know, and it's interesting too, if we just take parenthood as a timestamp in your relationship. When you first become parents, I often describe couples as having this newborn bubble around them. You're getting to know your little one, you know, you're healing, you're slowing down, you don't put the pressures on yourself. Hopefully in those first few— some people have it for a day, people have it for a few weeks— you're adjusting. The focus is on adjustment. And then I think of how things start to change in a relationship. I think A lot of times I would see mothers in my therapy room around 6 to 9 months where they would then share, I feel resentful of my partner. The mental load has now showed up and it feels heavy. I feel lonely. So it's not something that happens earlier on, but it happens as the kids start to age.

Were those people lonely in the relationship or were they literally lonely for friends, family?

Lonely in the relationship and resentful in the relationship. So it's When, when I think of our experience, I think what's interesting is, yes, those times are where I felt lonely, but I also felt lonely in almost these seasons of transition, of almost like even identity transitions. I remember recently you had said to me, like, one of the things you really wanted to work on is making space for your friendships and doing things that fill you up. And that is a really cool thing. But I think before we even got to you identifying that piece, I think we were in a season of loneliness before that. Yeah, where we were kind of parallel. We weren't really sharing the inside stuff. We were—

and that still shows up totally.

We were really just trying to like check the boxes, right? Kids to activities, get them from drop-off, then you get through dinner, right? Wash, rinse, repeat. It's easy to just feel far apart.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that's the— so there's the seasonal loneliness, and I think what you're alluding to is some of that more, more recent loneliness where it's less about the season of you are with your kids, and that's more of like the interpersonal loneliness where we just kind of fall in silos and do our own things and pick up our phones.

And like that question of like, who am I? And then who are you?

Yeah.

And who am I in relation to you?

Right. And I wonder maybe just because our kids are getting slightly older that it like, it's prompting like a new phase of loneliness, for lack of a better term.

For sure.

Yeah.

Tell me more.

Well, it's less, it's less logistical bullshit back and forth, and it's more just like, you know, the kids are more independent. And then so what are we doing with that time?

What are we doing together even?

Yeah, exactly.

I think there's this element here to name that the loneliness that comes over a relationship is not something that just happens overnight. It really is this gradual thing. You don't wake up one day and you feel apart. It's more this slow erosion. So I think about those missed bids for connection. You and I, I don't know if you picked up on this yesterday, but you and I had both at separate times said, I need you to listen. Can you pay attention? And I think it's, it's easy at times to be so in your life with the work demands and then the kids' activities that you start missing bids for connection.

For sure.

I think about, you know, when one of us comes home and instead of slowing down and greeting each other, instead we just like put the bag in the other room, start making dinner, and, you know, that just exists, right? Um, or if you comment about something— I think I did this to you the other night, to Totally imperfect. I was on my phone, like, actually wanting to do something. I'm justifying, but yeah, you were like trying to tell me something and I was like, uh-huh, and I was still like, oh, you did that today actually.

I did, on the way home from the office.

I did.

Yeah.

Yes.

And you went silent on me.

I'm sorry. I know that I did it.

You know what, actually, in the, in the car, we weren't even 100 meters out the door. They were 100 yards for American from our work meeting. Yeah.

No, I, I knew I did it.

I was like, holy shit, that's This person's— I'm right beside you.

And you felt like the other person was more important.

Yeah, we were in mid-conversation. You like, peace out. See, see, folks, it's real.

I got distracted.

And but that's a bit like— I think I'm not upset, it's just that I'm just observing because I do it too.

But these are the very real moments though that then take over our relationship. And so then we miss each other. And if that happens over and over and over again, like, you and I can sit here and laugh at it right now.

I know, I know.

But when it happens over and over again, you're going to feel the distance and the disconnection. I think the other thing too that is a warning sign or that slowly starts to happen is the surface-level conversations where you're talking about where are the splash pants, who's doing drop-off and pickup.

Splash pants example.

I know, it's my favorite one because, because it's a rare item, so you have to know where it is. It alludes to the mental load, right? And the transactions. But who's making lunch? Who's doing drop-off? Like, you know, Hey, did you call that person back that called? Like, it's just these surface-level conversations that lead you to miss the deepening. And so then I was thinking about this, the word or this term that a lot of people use is like, I'm looking for emotional connection for my partner, I want more emotional intimacy. And it's like, well, what does that actually look like? That is the, I'm going inside myself and I'm looking at my internal world. My internal world is filled with thoughts, feelings, beliefs, values, opinions, needs. I have to make sense of that and then take time to slow it down and share it with you. But we stopped doing that. Yeah, right. And so we— it's like, it's like the slow withdrawal. I'm like pulling my hands apart right here between you and I of like, we stopped sharing the internal world. Or if you're someone who has never really been good at sharing the internal world, AKA are more avoidant people, your partner is going to pull away as well as that. Not shadowing. Yeah.

Confession, I can't tell you how bad our phones are for, for that, particularly as like more of the avoidant type, because you can just, it's just so much easier. Like I like news and political stuff and, you know, dirt bike stuff. It's just so easy to whip out your phone and like have that part of your brain space taken up and filled so you don't have to do that. But what's the result of that? Misconnection, misbids, less emotional intimacy, all of it. Like it's so fucking bad. And I'm guilty to the end of the world too. And I think we all are. And all this stuff about, you know, kids shouldn't have phones in school, true. Oh, but man, who are the worst? It's us. It's us, you know, 30s and 40s. God, it's bad. And I'm, listen, I'm guilty as hell.

I'm gonna be the therapist and enter a quiet nuance in here. And I do, I love that you just said that. So, because I'm—

but look around, look, go to dinner and look around.

Oh, I'm free. No, people don't even stand in lines anymore. We don't stand in checkout lines. We just enjoy the white space, right? Is that the proper term for it? But just enjoy standing there and like move your legs side to side and look around at other people and listen in to what other people are saying. We don't do that. We grab our phone and we look at something. Why? You are not there.

I don't mean to come off sanctimonious or holier than thou, because I am guilty as fuck.

So I think—

but I'm recognizing what it's doing.

Okay. So I want to come into the nuance though, and maybe then we need to make a point of like talking about what we have been trying to do differently here so that we're not just saying this is a problem and we don't talk about the things we're trying to do. But I think there's an element in here, Greg, which is like, I remember you having the day in the work that you used to do. It was very outward facing. You interact with people all day long. I can appreciate that when you got home, you needed some numbing out, like just, sure, yeah, you know, nothingness. And for you, that's dirt biking and politics and the meat, like the media. I get it. Okay, I think then at the same time what we miss doing is carving out those intentional spaces. So then what ends up happening is we carry our phones in our pocket, and because we're still craving something for our bodies, we go to the room and look at it. And then your kid runs behind you, Daddy, what are you doing? Oh, nothing. And then you put it away and you like keep getting this, like, you know, like an arm twitch. And instead of having more agency and being able to say, hey fam, I'm home, done work, I need 20 minutes of nothingness. And we could all then agree and say, cool, you go take your 20 minutes, go do your thing. Because as a psychologist, what I believe to be true is not all coping strategies are bad. If you only ever turn to one, right, then that's a problem, right? Because when you have a nail, you're not going to use a hammer. So the idea then is to have multiple coping strategies. So that 20 minutes, one day you might say, yep, being on my phone really I need that today. Just need to sit on the couch, be on my phone for 20 minutes. But the next day you might say, I should go for a walk, clear my head, nothing in my ears. That would be really helpful.

Sure.

But all of that is this intentional carving out of time, which I think is what we lose then in our romantic partnerships. Because you flop on the couch after the kids go to bed and you just whip out your phones with the TV on and you're half watching the episode. It just starts to feel empty.

Rant over.

Rant over. And there's this other thing too that's happening around couples too, and this term called quiet divorce. And it's the, we're not separating our lives, but we're just not interconnected anymore because loneliness has gotten so bad that it's the thought of, well, I'm just gonna tuck myself away and just be in my own space. And like, I think this is that like gradual, where do things end up? That's where it ends up. And it is interesting because when I think about all the people who tell me that they feel lonely in their relationship, it really isn't that they stopped loving each other. And that's interesting.

I don't think that's surprising. It's just not how they envisioned it, I suppose.

Yeah, that's true. What do you remember when we labeled the loneliness in our own marriage? Do you remember who named it? What happened?

I mean, I'd love to take credit, but you did.

Did I?

Yeah. And it was fairly recently, like not like when I was saying earlier about the season of loneliness back when the kids were younger. I wouldn't have been able to name it as that then. It just, it just was what it was. It's what we were doing at the time.

It's survival.

Yeah.

And that's, I remember reading research and I wish I could find this paper again, is that it's 7 years. The significant impact of children on your marriage is 7 years, but 7 years to your youngest. So not when your first reaches 7 and your others are 5, 3, whatever. It's when your youngest reaches 7, because that is kind of this age where they are more autonomous. They start to play on their own. Phone. They can have longer stretches of independent play where you then notice you have time for yourself again and for your marriage. And so I, I do really— I remember I had said to you once, you know, kind of as a data, an informal data collection, how couples regularly come to see me when their kids are 3 and 5. Yeah, because that's the time when they start to come up for air and say, okay, we're starting to sleep, we have a routine, and I've been trying to do this now for 5 years It's not what I thought. And I— and we can't do it alone anymore. We need help. I wish they would come see me sooner, but obviously when we're sleep deprived, it's really hard. So you weren't surprised when I named it?

No, I think it's like anything. I think when you have a feeling, even if you can't name it, and then someone names it, you're kind of like, yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. And I think naming it— and this is also something that we walk people through in our Roommate Challenge— naming it is not about blame.

No.

And I think when one person— there's two things that can happen. You can name it and blame it on the other person, or you name it as a we construct, as something that you're experiencing and something that you want to get to. And I think the really powerful thing is, I mean, look, I could sit here and say, yeah, your phone's a problem and you were the one who got the iPad first in 2009. I want it. And what does that do for us? Because I am also part of this dynamic. Um, I've seen a bunch of Esther Perel videos recently, and I just love that she says this because it's what we need to hear, and it's something I've said a lot as well, is if you want to change the other, you start by changing yourself.

Yeah.

And, oh, that's so uncomfortable because a lot of people in this community send me messages and say, well, why is it all on me?

Yeah, they get upset. We've spoken about this before.

Of course. I'm glad you said that, that It's not really all on one person. And I think also too, if you're on the receiving end, so if, if you're listening to this and your partner has recently said to you, we're struggling with loneliness, yeah, don't make it about yourself because it's so easy to then take it personally and get angry and project it outwards or get into justifications.

It's like a, it's a process problem almost, like It needs a solution, not blame.

I think the first level is it needs curiosity and understanding.

Yeah. Like data collection. Like, how and why?

Yeah. Tell me more about that. What happens that leads you to feel this way? What are the first— and if you're asking these questions, you also have to be willing to hear the answers.

Right.

What leads you to feel that way? What moment specifically? And if your partner says, you know, love, we put the kids to bed and then immediately you're on your phone and it feels like that's the most important thing to you. Don't be defensive to that. To say thank you for trusting me to share this with me.

Yeah.

Oh, sorry, I feel like my soapbox coming out. I feel like this is something that we're missing in partnerships. When your partner comes to share it with you, to share something hard with you, we're so busy putting up our defenses and our walls and projecting it and all the things instead of seeing it as a gift, as a privilege. This person is sharing something inside about them with you.

They take it personally.

Don't take it personally though. It's a gift.

Yeah, it's a reframe though.

Your partner isn't, you know, sharing with the person who held the door for them at the mall, hey, I'm feeling really lonely in my marriage. Like, you know, that, that's a sharing between two people. I don't know, maybe that's a reframe for people who, who feel defensive or when things feel a little bit personal. How did we then start to move past? Like, what, what were some of the things that we put in place? To help us reconnect. And I want to just say this one piece: we are not in a life space right now where we get to go and take long weekends away just the two of us. We don't get to have nights away. Dates are harder— not impossible, but they don't happen frequently because we don't have family living in the city with us. Yeah, that kind of thing. We have young children. So I just want to first say the solution to this is not the big date nights.

No, it's not the big stuff. Yeah, it's a little stuff. I mean, I think For us, naming it, not taking it personally.

No blame.

No blame. A ritual, like a morning ritual.

So Greg and I—

Just protected time together. Nothing, it's not crazy, just like 20 minutes in the morning.

Sorry, I interrupted you.

That's okay.

So Greg and I started a morning ritual. So I'm not really a candle person, but we found like a decent smelling candle that doesn't give me a headache. And so we started lighting it in the middle of the dark winter. So it was dark mornings. We'd have our coffee, I love coffee, and we would just sit and chat for the first 20 minutes, no phones.

And sometimes, honestly, we'd be super tired and maybe wouldn't even talk that much. That was okay too, because we were in each other's presence, we were on our phones. Yeah, you know, take a few minutes to wake up together.

That one's important. I think that one— and we've slipped off of that lately just because I've been sick the last 3 weeks.

But that's something most people can do, you know, without babysitters and family and all that kind of stuff. Start tomorrow, really.

And the idea then to find your back to each other is not about those grand dates. It's not about the big gestures. It's not about buying all the things because that's not sustainable. It's not sustainable and it is exhausting. If you have a sticky notepad, I'm looking at one on your desk. Write a note for your partner and leave it at their coffee mug tomorrow morning. That is something so simple and possible to do. But it's those small things regularly that help to bring you back together. And it's even the commitment So if you're listening to this, send it to your partner, listen together, talk about it. It's the commitment of, can we put our phones away between 5 to 7 every night and just be so present together?

But start smaller than that. Like, 5 to 7 is 2 hours. Like, that's a lot. Start for 20 minutes, start for 10.

I like that. Yeah, I like that.

But it's true, it's— that's— that's big. So can we talk about the elephant in the room with this?

Oh yeah, I'm done my notes. So what's the elephant?

This feels like a modern woman in marriage problem. Is that just Am I being biased, or is this, is this, is this modern women being able to identify it or finding their voice where in the past they didn't? I suspect so.

Are you asking if men are not feeling lonely in their marriage?

No, not at all. I'm just, I'm just thinking, is this something that's being brought, brought to bear more because women, you know, for, for good reason, have a stronger voice in the relationship now?

Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just women. And again, I'm saying this with clinical experience, it's that it's when women become mothers or they reach a certain point in their life. So it does not— you have to become a mother, but no, no, it's not. It's when you reach a certain point in your life where you say, I don't want to keep going like this. I can't keep going like this.

So it's a recognition.

It's a recognition. So for some people who do choose to have children, I find this happens again once they leave the postpartum years. And they have space to tap back into, who am I? Who am I now that my kids have more— like, have— there's more autonomy with my children. That's for mothers specifically. And then I also think about what we are called, like, what we're naming today, and we can't ignore, and I need men to get on board with this, is perimenopause, right? Which symptoms can start to happen plus or minus around 40, so it could be 38. But what we know is that through the hormone changes, if estrogen is decreasing— estrogen is the hormone that makes you have the rose-colored glasses and you feel good. And as you enter into perimenopause, estrogen, progesterone decreases. And guess what? Your ability to tolerate BS decreases. Rose-colored glasses no longer exist, right? So we're like, well, what am I doing here? Why am I tolerating being in a relationship that's not filling me up? And the answer The first door to open is not, I'm out, right? But the first door is to actually vocalize, hey, listen, this hasn't worked for me, and it hasn't worked for a long time.

I'm lonely.

I'm lonely. And, and it's not, it's not the, you don't see me, you don't care about me. It's the, I miss us. I miss the joy and the fun and the play that we used to have. How can we start doing that together? Do you ever feel lonely? But I do, like, I'm just thinking about men and women. I also do believe though that Men are lonely as well. It just presents differently.

No question. No question.

I was, it was more, my question was in the, like compared to like 20, 30 years ago.

Yeah, exactly. More in the, in the vein of kind of the modern woman in marriage and that kind of thing.

Yeah. I mean, we are more vocal in marriage today. I think that is, is a rub for many people in a good way for women. So that's interesting. So a woman 40 years ago, was she lonely in her marriage? Absolutely.

Maybe more so.

And might she have said anything? Maybe less so, and to generalize, but, and that is our society and culture of how things are shifting and changing. So thanks for calling out the elephant in the room.

Listen, I don't want it to be reductive, but if we're having this conversation, I think there's just an element of truth to it.

Here's the reality. Women are listening to the podcast, buying the self-help books, and following the social media account.

Exactly.

And their male counterparts are being left behind. And so it is a call for men to step into this conversation. I know my hand's going, whoa, whoa. And I had one person describe it to me. It's like she's at level 303 and her husband's at level 101. So when's he gonna meet her there? And it's— I don't come in this position in terms of blaming men. I know that you grew up in a society, in a culture that told you it's okay to not do this work, but now you have a choice and you have a sense of agency. So Step in and feel the joy of connection.

Just keep yelling at us, it's working.

Did you have anything else to add to our conversation today?

Not on that part, no.

Not on that part.

I feel like I stepped in a pile of dog shit, like Friends and Neighbors, you know, that part where she keeps standing in this shit, the neighbor's dog.

Oh, we've loved that show. All right, anything else to add for today?

No, I don't think so. Stepped in enough shit for today. But I think what was important Not going to give you all the answers today because there isn't all the answers all in one spot, but maybe even just identifying this as something to think about, maybe even for your partner or husband to like, oh, this is a thing.

I'm a longtime fan and we're publishing sisters, Dr. Alexandra Solomon, and she talks about relational self-awareness. And relational self-awareness isn't about getting angry and blaming your partner. It's about naming the experience you're having inside and being curious about it. And that's exactly what we're doing here. You can't change anything if you don't have that relational self-awareness. And it's powerful because then it invites your partner also to step into that with you. Not to step on shit, but to step into this and be curious about something and to find the solution together.

For sure. I guess just to wrap up, I think I would just reiterate what you said earlier. Like, if you're a dude listening to this and your wife's coming to you and telling you she's lonely, is to really not take that personally and take that as what a privilege that is that she's sharing this with you now before it's too late, and do something with that.

Thank you for reiterating that point I think that's a beautiful point for the dudes out there, or the ladies, or anyone, the people, the peoples. All right, thank you for clicking play today. If anything landed for you, one of the best things you can do to support the podcast is to click subscribe and send it to someone you love. It really means a lot to be able to have people to subscribe to the podcast. It helps others find the podcast. And if you're looking for more support, I have several resources for you over on my website, drtracydalgleish.com. You can download my scripts If your partner is defensive, you can take my relationship quiz, or if you really want to tackle that sense of loneliness and distance, join my 30 Days to Us. It's one of my favorite resources that we have. It's a 30-day challenge, bite-size, small exercises for you to do based on my pillars of a healthy relationship. I love that challenge. All right. Thanks for clicking play. See you next time. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this information is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from my licensed mental healthcare provider. See you next time.