What My Husband Doesn't Understand About the Mental Load

Hey, it's Dr. Tracy. And today we're talking about a very specific aspect around the mental load. And Greg sitting with me here to bring this conversation to light. And this is actually one of those aha. Moments that we had in our own relationship around navigating invisible and visible tasks. And we thought we need to have this here on the podcast. So thank you for hanging out with me today.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I think I'm here because I'm a subject matter expert.

You absolutely are. And also too, you have a lot of helpful perspectives because you're the other side. You're the side that I can't always provide.

What's that? Delayment.

Yes.

Cool.

But let's. Let's start with our 100 questions to deepen your connection on the podcast. Greg and I ask each other one question we try to when we sit down together on the podcast. And this is actually from our guide that's available for you. It's 100 questions to deepen your connection. And something that we both love about this is we've taken it on date nights ourselves. And we use it.

Yeah, we use it.

But something we love about it is that it really shifts us out of the mundane, the everyday, kind of parallel side by side. Life. Life.

How was your day?

What's new?

Yeah.

And the conversations from it, we never really know where it's gonna go.

So that's the best part.

That is the best.

Yeah. I've said it before. It's the. It's almost not the answer that you give to the question. It's the. The memories and the journey that come from it. And where it goes, I think is equally as important. It becomes a point of connection and you can just kind of build on it.

It's not something that's pressure. Right. And that too, I think, even too. The first time I asked you one of these questions, you were kind of. You gave me a short answer and I was like, okay, that's cool. And then the more we practiced and did it, and one of the why it's so important to do this in your relationship is because we know that research shows for happy, healthy, connected relationships, we need to have time to tap into our love maps. Like what? And that's a very Gottman word.

Right.

So their research from the love Lab shows that couples who are able to dream together and who also have positive storytelling of their past that helps them to feel more connected and closer.

Yeah, I think. Listen, what I need a list of questions. And that was kind of my first reaction. Too. But when you take it for what it is, and some of them are simple and some of them are. It's just. It's. It's just a way. So some prompts to kind of help you along the way, which I think is helpful.

Yeah, it's this. Oh, it's this kind of piece around. We don't know what to ask if you don't really know. So you have picked a question today. I don't know what it is.

Ready?

Yes.

What is one event or decision that you would want to do over?

Okay.

Take that wherever you want to go, I think.

Yeah.

That's the beauty of the questions.

One decision or event I'd want to do over.

Yeah.

Okay. I don't think you would think that I'm going to go to this one.

Okay.

This is around after our son was born. So our first baby.

Okay.

I think for people who have followed my story here and have been part of this community for a while, you know my story. For those who don't, our first child, where it was 2015 and I had labored. The backstory is relevant to the part that I would change. So I labored naturally the way I wanted to. And at 9 centimeters, my water broke and we discovered a bum. My son's bum.

Yes.

Not above my son's mom. And he was in the frank breach position. And the information that I had was to have the safest delivery was to go for a cesarean. And that was the choice that we made. And the hardest part about this process was really the weeks that happened or the days and weeks and moments afterwards, which is the shame that I was swallowed up in after. I remember, even at that time, so early 2015, not a lot of people online were talking about their birth story stories or there weren't these really great communities around, you know, pelvic floor recovery. I even think about one of my colleagues that I'm connected with in Toronto. She does the C section awareness month every April. I did not know that existed. In 2015, did it exist? I don't even remember actually, at that time. I don't remember. I just remember feeling this overwhelming experience of shame that I failed. Because the narrative then is back then, which is not a true narrative, but the narrative that many people fight against is if you didn't birth your child vaginally, you didn't have a real birth, which is just gut wrenching as a mother. And I remember feeling like my first job as a parent, as a mother, and I failed. I didn't even know that My child was in the wrong position, and I carried that silently with myself for so long afterwards. I remember slipping into a funk, into a depression, right after giving birth in those early postpartum days. So I think when I think of your question, something that I would probably go back and redo, are those weeks after he was born, I would want to vocalize the feeling. Feeling that I was struggling with, like, oh, hey, this is really hard. I'd want to talk more openly about it because all my friends around me were not talking about this major surgery that they had.

Right.

No one else in our families has had this kind of birth. And so I was just kind of this anomaly, and nobody really understood what my experience was. And I really wish I had given space and time to name it, because I know from my clinical work and what's healthy with the stuff that we struggle with is when we name the experience, we remove the power out of it.

We.

And we removed the shame. I think that would have just freed up that time for me, just that the emotional weight that I was carrying with me as my entry point into motherhood.

So it's the. It's the how you were thinking and being after that, you would change.

To answer the question, Yeah, I would change how I was moving through the day to day.

Interesting.

Which is so interesting, too, because I. I mean, I think of that back to that time, and I. I remember even having conversations with myself of, your only job is to heal right now. Why can't you just lay down and just heal? And it.

I do remember that.

It's tricky. So I wouldn't change anything about how our son came into the world.

No, I. I'm not. I'm not hearing you say that.

No.

It's a compelling story. He.

He came into the world exactly the way that he needed to. And it's. It's such a gift that we have this story and how different his entry was from my daughters and. And that. That's such a gift. But, gosh, that emotional weight of that time and how alone I felt, it was.

Yeah. Wow. That. I didn't think you'd go there, but thanks for sharing.

Thank you. Okay, let me change the term. I kind of get tears in my eyes a little bit. I know. Okay. Dr. Tracy needs a minute. Okay. Let me ask you.

Well, I mean, how do I. Thank you? Mine's a little different. Maybe people can relate to this. I finished college, which in Canada is more of like, a technical diploma. It's not a degree. So for international American listeners, college is a Little bit different how we determine it. So I went to college for three years and then I felt a lot of societal, personal pressure to continue to university at that time. Even kind of the thought of going to college over university coming out of high school is almost like, I use this word lightly, like failure. Like there was a lot of institutional and societal pressure that university is the only way to go at that time. There's certainly outcomes that showed, like you made more money, outcomes were certainly better. Our parents generation, I think, put a lot of value on university versus kind of technical stuff, which I think is so ironic because now I see its playing field is totally leveled, which I'm super happy about, you know, for our kids, that yes, you know, if my son wants to be an electrician, you know, awesome. Versus some arts degree, with all due respect. So anyway, so I ended up going to a university that didn't have the best transfer credits, that didn't. That served me in the sense of it was geographic, geographically advantageous to where I was living at the time. But I just went because I was supposed to or thought I had to, and I. And I didn't do well. I didn't finish. And I really wish I hadn't done that. It was damn expensive. I wish I'd taken time to travel, try a different job. You know, I think about like all the entrepreneurial stuff we're able to do now. Like, I just feel it was just a, it was just a decision I wish I had over again. Similarly, I don't regret it. I.

It's interesting because I, like, I, I hear that wish almost and I was thinking like, oh, do you regret, like, is there a regret or is it an acceptance that you needed to have that experience?

No, it's not a regret to help

you grow as a person.

It's both. I, I think it helped me grow, but if there's one thing I came to mind would do over at this point, that's one of, one of the top ones.

Yeah.

Just because the time and resources that it took with low outcome because I didn't follow through on it. But I learned a lot of lessons at the same time.

I almost hear you saying, and maybe I'm wrong, so correct me if I'm wrong, but there's almost this desire of space and breathing and pausing rather than that rushed pressure a hundred percent.

That's what I mean. I wish I'd taken a year or two off, maybe traveled or even if I didn't travel, just tried something different.

It's so precarious. In a way though, because I think of so, so first of all, Greg and I have talked a lot about this in the sense of what we were brought up with. And even I had. My grandparents had said you're the first in our family to go to university. Right. Like it was a big deal for sure. And I don't think I realized how many people felt pressure until even coming out of the experience and realizing that the majority like you know, majority of the people they attend first year and then by second year many of those people have dropped out because it's not, it's not a system that's made for everybody. Not everybody learns. Right. Like not everybody learns that way. It doesn't necessarily guarantee you the work that you want. I, I can think of many of my friends who did four year degrees and are not even working near that degree that they did. And so it's this really. And what I mean by precarious is that it's such an interesting time of development that the last thing people need is pressure.

I know I just think of like the age I was too like 21, 22. I know you started your education quite young, but I think as a male too like we are behind in development at that.

Tell me more about that because I know you and I have talked about that piece.

Well, I just think there's an emotional. Different emotional maturity difference at that age between men and women still like particularly for men, young men, I think they're still coming into their own. I think we're seeing some of the unintended consequences of that in society writ large right now. But separate apart from that. I think at the the time I wasn't, I wasn't ready and I just did what one ought to do and that's not always the best course. So that's.

And society familial pressures that come in on that. This kind of outward comparison. We had this conversation recently with someone and they're talking about a gap year.

Yeah.

With their son. And, and like just how, how empowering it is to give like to recognize that we're all on a different path and it's not this. I think this is important for us to remember one decision does not determine your life and that's such a different way that we things compared to back then.

Well I think that that context important this the early 2000s if you weren't in school at that time ostensibly there was some. Something wrong with you or you're failing

or like what are you doing?

What do you do? What are you doing?

With your life.

What are you doing with your life, you bum? Yeah, put the bong down for 30 seconds.

Right?

You know, like, there was no MB, there's no gray.

What kind of value do you think you're going to bring in life if you're not in school? Yeah, that was totally the message.

It wasn't, it wasn't explicit necessarily either at all.

Thing, but.

And it's true. I mean, if you went to university at that time and got a degree, the outcomes were better. Yeah, it's changed. And that's great.

It is just this recognition that we all come into things in such a different time. And I think about you or any person really, at the age of 21, 22, we like to, I mean, oh, teenagers, they want to be adults at 18. But let's be real, the brain is just doing its biggest leap of growth there. The prefrontal cortex is growing. That doesn't stop growing until age 23 for women, age 25 for men. So men's prefrontal finished developing afterwards. I remember working with a client once and saying to her, this was. She was reaching her late 20s at this point. I said, hey, like, I'm seeing you enter into adulthood now at late 20s, which is so different compared to our parents who had kids younger. But anyways, this, I really appreciate you sharing that, Greg, because I, I didn't think you would go back to that. And I know that, that it was really a foundational piece of your own development and earlier messages that you formed about yourself. So thanks for sharing that one. All right, let's talk about this aha moment we had in the mental load experience. I actually shared this on Instagram through a short video clip. I told the story, it went viral. We're talking 4 plus million views, which is crazy. And it was just this moment of, aha, I get it.

So for you or for me, for,

I think for so many of us, Greg at the time would be working during the day, he was working on weekends. And one of the things that helped me cope with the heavier load of parenting is he would do bath time with the kids at night. And this might have even been a night where I was still rocking our little one to bed. So he's doing bath time, finishes bath time. Everybody's giggling and laughing. He's transitioning to bedtime stories, whatever it is. I go into the bathroom and towels are all over the floor. Okay, cool, I'll pick up the towels. Right. Greg is already having a great time with the kids, laughing with pajamas and all. The things. Things. And then I look in the tub and there's toys all over the tub. Okay. So I pick up the toys and then there's like shampoo that was left open. No, it was body wash that was left open. Maybe it was empty and the lid was off. Okay, we'll pick that up and replace that.

This track.

And I had the thought, why don't I just leave this here and he can do it tomorrow. I'll leave the toys in the tub. He could just do it tomorrow. But I also knew I would be the next person to shower in the morning and so I would be cleaning up the toys in the morning. And I felt myself grow so frustrated in the moment because I felt like this afterthought I was the one coming in after you. It's almost like, it's almost like the street, the street cleaner that comes in after the big celebration. You know, like the parade goes through, everyone's happy and they're celebrating. I'm the street cleaner. Okay, let me come in and clean up. And it just clicked for me of why I felt so exhausted because Greg, and here's how I named it for him, that really hit home for us.

That helped me.

He wasn't closing the task and so we then had this language to start to understand. So you then were like, oh, I get it. Because the task was bedtime or sorry, bath time. And what does all bath time include in terms of a task? You know, getting soap, towels, toys, etc.

And then there's a beginning, a middle and an end.

Thank you.

Whatever the task is, is right.

And you were doing maybe some of the beginning. You were doing the middle.

I was doing, yeah. Two of three.

Were you buying 66%. Okay. But you weren't doing the end. I was just feeling really stuck in that moment when like really feeling like why do, why does everything feel so heavy for me in our partnership?

Well, to give some context though, I think and part of this is about me as a person. So everyone's experienced with this will be a little bit different. I tend to rush and not slow down. So I might be more guilty of this than other people. It might show up differently for other dudes. Maybe they're not completing the task is, hey, Johnny should go to baseball camp. But that's it. There's no other follow through. Right. So I'm, I'm perhaps a bit more predisposed to that, to this. So all that to say it's going to show up a little bit differently for different people and maybe for some not at all. But I'm sure there's an element and everyone can relate to.

Absolutely. So in your experience, then, what's going through your mind as you're doing the task?

Not much. That's the problem. Well, you're just. You're just. You're in survival mode. That sounds strong. You're just trying to get through the doing mode. Doing mode? Yeah. Autopilot.

Okay. So you're like, I'm doing the da task. I'm present, dad.

I'm pretending to be present, dad. Let's not rule out the fact that maybe when the kid was in the bath, I may have been on my phone. Hopefully not at this age, but many, I bet are.

It's kind of the checking or the,

like, maybe not like, yeah, just checking quick. Or if, you know, it's autopilot, it's distracted. Distracted parenting. Call it that. We're all guilty of it to some degree.

And I think what's interesting for me is, is my experience, and there was very much like, I'm the leftovers. I'm the street cleaner.

Yeah, that's a good analogy.

It's all on me. Like, that was a story. I would say to myself, I have to clean everything up. It's all on me. I would lose connection time because that. Even if that moment, bath time, toy pickup, only took 60 seconds. If I'm doing that 10 times a day, that adds up. And then it's not just the actual time it takes to do it. Then it's the. The physical cost, because then I'm tired and then I'm tense. Then I go to the kids, and it's like, now I'm short with it.

That's what it does to your mood, too.

Totally. And then. So I would feel exhausted. And I think then this is one of those spots where it can also lead to that negative cycle. Right? Because then I feel exhausted, resentful, and angry. I go to you, and you get defensive because you're like, well, I did bath time. What more do you want from me?

I did what you asked me to

do, and it becomes this vicious cycle. Right. And I think that's also where some of the. The mental load stuff is so important for us to look at because it exists in. In a system and a dynamic for the couple.

Right. Tell me more about that. Because I have thoughts, but.

Tell me your thoughts.

Don't answer a question with the question.

I know.

So you.

When I do that, I ask questions for a living.

That's true.

Okay, so what happens for couples? Well, I'm feeling unseen. And then I get angry and I go to you and I say, you never help out. And then you say, well, what do you mean? Like, I was just at work for this amount of hours and I came home and then I did bath time with the kids and I don't feel understood. You feel defensive in a way. We go into our cycle makes sense. And for people who are listening and they haven't taken our quiz, this is a good moment to pause and go check out our relationship quiz. It's free. I'll lead you through specific questions so that you can then understand what's the repeating cycle that you and your partner get stuck in. And then by completing that, you also get to work through, like, what triggers your cycle. Because if you are continuing to get caught in that pattern, it's going to be really hard to start changing things because the pattern takes takes over. We'll put the link in the show notes for that one. Let me just catch my train of thought here. I think too, we're using the bath time example as one moment, but I know this shows up in all kinds of different places. So I'm thinking about one person who told us recently about how cleaning in the kitchen is done. Like, someone says, hey, I'm gonna clean up the kitchen after dinner. And then you think, yes, this is great. My, you know, my husband's cleaning up the kitchen. That's their task. They take it on. You divide the task, maybe even you talk about it. And then you go in the kitchen and the pots and pans are still in the sink. And then you say, well, you didn't do the pots and pans. And what I often hear from couples is then he says, it's never enough for you. You have such high expectations. I can never get it right for you.

For me.

Which is also a valid experience for you, though, because if I come to you and I point out what you aren't doing, this is where we get stuck in the cycle 100%. Of course you get your backup. Of course it's tricky.

So I think we were talking about it. One of the things that kind of helped unlock it for me was when you kind of used it in the context of a work example. And I think, why maybe this will help some of the dudes is it's a kind of a linear thing, beginning, middle, end. Relating it to work I think we can relate to. If I'm a contractor and I ask one of my guys to do a specific job and you get to the job site the next day and it's not done. He didn't finish the task, he didn't close the task. You're going to be upset. Or maybe you're a tech guy who shares offices and you roll into the. To your office time and the guy before you left it a disaster, didn't clean up, didn't finish the task. You know, it doesn't land with you. Right. So the same kind of idea in the home, I think if you can hold that in mind, can be helpful. And that's, that's where it kind of helped, helped me because you kind of reflected to me like, what if one of your staff did? I was managing a bunch of people at the time, didn't complete the task. How, you know, how would that land for you? And that, that really resonated.

Yeah, that was a big one. And, and I think so many people in some ways can understand the concept of a team collaborative experience at work for sure. And then they come home and they almost lose that. They lose that ability to say, how are we co creating in this? How are we functioning together? Because it's not you versus me. And, and I think that's where some of that mental load conversation can get lost sometimes is it becomes very much against each other and pointing out all of the things that are happening.

Some of it too, I think is very abstract. Like for example, the. I have to think about which gift to buy and that's a thing for sure. But that doesn't necessarily like land for a dude. And like we have our own load too. It might be physical, it might be financial, and I think sometimes that might be lost a little bit. So how it. If the mental load is going to work, it needs both players on the team to be kind of going in the same direction. So if you beat the shit out of your partner over like conceptual stuff, although there's a space for it, you know, what's the outcome going to be? It might not be what you'd hoped and it might backfire.

Conceptualization is one of the biggest pieces around. What makes the mental load so heavy is because you spend all this time thinking about this stuff and it's okay.

Yeah, but I think women over index that.

Fair enough. Yeah, but they over index it because they don't feel their partner is stepping into it.

Probably fair too.

And you and I actually just had this conversation because it's the beginning of the year and camp is asking us to register, by the way. We have to register for tonight, but it's showing up. See. Did you know. Did you remember?

No.

You didn't remember if you missed today, do you.

Those parents out there listening. Let's be honest, this camp stuff is a bordering on grift at this point.

It's painful, but this is. I had this in my brain.

There you go.

Five times already in the last two days. Don't forget Tuesday night this time. Don't forget this.

But don't you think this is where maybe, like, throwing a reminder in your phone can help 100%. Can we. Can we start to use some of this AI tools now? Can we start to use some of this? So we.

So you're using the corporate we. Who's doing it?

The females.

Exactly. I. Okay, so here's. Here's the thing you and I, though, and this is problematic for us, is you and I have not divided what the camp task looks like.

Right.

Talked about it many times.

And so I haven't agreed on a set of rules, not rules, but principles for what the task look like. Looks like. And I think that's a huge thing that people can do to make this

successful, because when you don't, it's a diffusion of responsibility. And that diffusion of responsibility lands on her. If he doesn't do it, then. Or if she doesn't do it, then it doesn't happen. Okay.

Or. Or it just leads to a lot of miscommunication.

Also true. I wholeheartedly sink into this very real experience around. I have this internal reaction to some of the mental load conversations. I absolutely love what Eve brought forward with her Fair Play book and with the card deck. It's great. The system works for some.

She's awesome. Yeah, she's.

She's amazing. Gosh, Conversations with her. So good. They're also. She's been on the podcast twice. So the system works for some. Some people, it doesn't work in their life. And that's okay. You take what you want from a system for sure. The challenge that I have around the mental load is that then we use it as this binary, this closing down curiosity. And so if you haven't listened to last week's podcast episode on weaponized incompetence, because I talk about why that term is hot right now and why it's also problem. But we. We then lose context. And I know you and I have this conversation about mental load when we talk about it only from the women's perspective, we end up dismissing the other person's experience, even if you don't agree

with it or it's not what you want it to be.

Fair enough.

To borrow a phrase, it's kind of weaponized a little bit, and your Instagram algorithm might not be helping that.

That's also true. That's also true. I've had this big reaction to that, actually. How. And you heard me the day say this, where if I pause on a video, then suddenly I'm fed three more on it, and it's like, feeling really icky. Anyways, let's not sidestep. But I think then this leads us to. So what do we actually do about it?

Of course. Yeah.

Let's talk about what people can actually put in place here to help tackle this. So I think the first thing is to really name what this experience is. So if you find yourself feeling frustrated and resentful, feeling like you're always picking up after your partner, this is not the time to go them and say, hey, I'm always picking up after you. But to start talking about, there's this experience of a task, and the task has a beginning, middle, end. And I think we haven't. You know, I heard this concept from Dr. Tracy, use me in your home. That's fine. Blame me.

Yeah.

You know, Dr. Tracy talked about this idea of closing the task. I've never heard it before. What do you think about it?

Yeah, it's curiosity.

Curiosity not coming to your partner and saying, you never close the task because you need to onboard your partner. And I. I know a reaction at this point right here, for so many women who listen, the reaction is, why do I have to be the one to do this work? And I get it. And I know that change feels uncomfortable, and I know that sometimes it feels unfair. And I'm holding space for that emotion. It is a very real emotion. And in a partnership, you happen to be the one who's aware of this, and you can help up learn together. That's so important. People who are listening, I'm using my hands, lifting them up. You get to uplearn together, and that's true partnership. Again, you think about the team at work, you bring forward an idea they didn't know, and they say, oh, my gosh, thank you so much for sharing this. Yeah.

The team at work, you have your own set of skills and expertise that you bring to the team, and they're not equal. And it's the same in our relationships.

So then the next thing, I think that's really important to help work through this is to sit together and actually define it.

Yeah, that's what I was alluding to

earlier, because what ends up happening is you are two different people. You bring in your different experiences. You have different models of what your parents did in the home or how something was. Was completed or how it wasn't. You know, your definition of cleaning the kitchen might not include wiping down the table and the counters, but the other person views it as doing a full backsplash kitchen counter wipe.

Yeah. It's an agreement on a set of kind of guidelines and principles.

I love that piece. Because we don't have those conversations early on in relationships.

Not at all.

I mean, you.

Reactionary. They're not.

They're so reactionary. And they lose the curiosity that's so important in what does cleaning the kitchen mean to you? What does it actually look like if you take that task on.

Yeah.

And let's also not forget too, that when you're thrown into parenthood, you're all like, we're just. We're flying. Like you're going by the seat of your pants. And.

But even without kids, it's still. We come from different upbringings and experiences even before kids. You can. I mean, listen for those listening out there who are younger without kids and you're planning to have a family. And if you can do this before then.

Yes.

This is huge.

The pens in our house is very. Is so different of how you and I grew up.

Pens and scotch tape. They're supposed to be in the junk drawer. They were never in the junk drawer in my house.

So you couldn't find them.

That's right.

But for us growing up, we didn't leave pens around. They were always in a very specific. I can actually picture the jar on the ledge in the kitchen area. Area beside the phone. That's where pen should go. So what's funny in our relationship now, and it's such a silly little example, but I walk seeing pens all over the house.

I couldn't find a pen today. I was going crazy.

I'm so sorry. I put three pens back in the drawer yesterday while you were out.

Well, I didn't look at the drawer,

but that the drawer. This is case in point. The drawer is where pens are stored. We. We digress. Okay, so I think that the next piece here is this. The stuff doesn't just magically happen. I love the idea of you and your partner being these, you know, two rocks. Rocks bumping up against each other by waves of the ocean. And over time, you smooth each other out. You're supposed to negotiate. You're supposed to converse and agree and decide on these things and come to the table together. So there's this element here of slowing down and dividing tasks. And we want this to be in a space so that your partner comes to the table and does this with you for sure. And then I think the other thing too, that I kind of thought about, because you're my autopilot expert, which is another one of my favorite episodes sitting with you talking about autopilot. But I think then when it comes to actually doing tasks for people to practice single tasking.

Yes. And not multitasking, the myth of multitasking is real. I think.

Right. So there is this kind of misunderstanding that's been passed along that women are better multitaskers than men. And actually research shows that there's a very little increased improvement in output. But women are just the same as men, but they are more practiced in multitasking.

Is that because they take on more?

Yes. They're expected to multitask. However, that being said, single tasking always outwinds that you are more productive getting things done when you single task.

And gosh, I mean, closing the task.

Yes. Yeah. See, like I. I think of even last night when you were gone, I had the dishwasher open and then I was starting to vacuum a cupboard. I was like, no, don't do all this. Just do one thing at a time. Dishwasher, sync all the things. So anyways, do you have anything else to add?

I don't think so. I think. I think we covered it. It's a. It's kind of a niche topic, but if you can introduce it to your partner in a way that's kind of curious and different and hopefully they kind of understand the linear nature of it. It was the way it was framed that kind of made me realize, okay, I like it. I'm good at this. And I just got to close the task. And I think, like I said earlier, I think more. Some people are going to be more predisposed to this than others. And to varying degrees, you can like anything, take from this, what works for you and use it in the context that you know best in your life.

Yeah. And I also want to add this piece too, where I know we bring in our own personalities. And so for me, that more hyper aware of my environment and needing things to be in predictable places, that's. That's what I bring in. And recognizing that we're a partnership and you don't always live in the same way that I do, it just now means that we have to negotiate of what that actually looks like and define time. How do we close a task? What does that look like. So thanks for hanging out with me.

Cool. Thanks for having me.

If anything from today's conversation resonated with you, I would love for you to share this with your partner, listen to it with them, or send it to a friend where you have been talking about the mental load. And if you are looking for more support, check out my 30 days to us. It's an email challenge with one powerful exercise every single day for you and your partner to feel closer and more connected. Here's one of the reasons why I love it because mental load is actually part of the bigger picture around desire and intimacy, connection and communication. And I take all of my pillars in terms of how I teach people and work with them to have better, more connected relationships and I break it down so that you spend the next 30 days feeling closer. All right, thanks for joining us here. And remember, you are right where you need to be. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. See you next time.