When Sexual Desire Feels Mismatched: Emotional vs Physical Intimacy

Today's episode is for every couple who's ever found themselves on opposite sides of the intimacy divide. We have a sensitive topic here, so I advise you to put your earbuds in. If little ones are around. Here's the divide. Maybe one of you is craving physical closeness, while the other just wants to feel emotionally safe before even thinking about sex. Maybe you've been together for years, and what used to feel easy now feels like navigating a marathon. A especially for her. This episode was inspired by a listener who submitted her question, and she said, he wants sex all the time. I just want peace and someone to talk to. If that sounds familiar, I want you to know you're not alone and there's nothing wrong with you or your relationship. But there is often a deeper story playing out under the surface that needs tending. So today we're going to explore what it really means when one partner reaches for sex and the other feels overwhelmed by it. We'll talk about the difference between spontaneous and responsive desire, how emotional and sexual intimacy are wired differently, and how to shift from pressure to connection. Whether you're the one longing for more physical connection or the one who feels shut down, this episode will help you better understand your own needs and your partners so you can begin to move toward each other instead of away. Let's dive in. Let's name the pattern I see so often. One partner initiates sex and the other turns away from it. One feels rejected and the other feels pressured. This dynamic becomes loaded with unspoken meanings. He hears, you don't want me and feels rejected. She feels, you don't see me. You don't see how overwhelmed I am. And I feel like I'm not even important. In one couple I worked with, the husband said, I try to be affectionate, but if I touch her, she pulls away. It makes me feel feel invisible. It makes me feel inadequate. The wife responded, I feel like he's not seeing how much I do. The moment I sit down, he wants something from me, and I just need a moment to breathe. And it's like, do I even matter to him with all that I'm actually doing around here? They weren't actually that far apart emotionally at our core. They were talking about these core needs and longings to not feel rejected, to feel enough to feel like they're important. But the behaviors, the reaching out, the turning away, what were being interpreted through old scripts, the scripts of rejection, pressure, inadequacy, guilt, these aren't just sexual issues. They're emotional safety issues. What's difficult for couples Is that the emotional safety issues often come long before the sexual issues do. Yet they don't show up into my therapy office until they're having sexual issues. And partners will often say, we've stopped having sex. We have different desire levels. But. But when I go a little bit deeper, it's almost like the band aid is the sex issue, but underneath it's the real struggle of emotional closeness and connection and essentially the piece about meeting our core needs and longings. When I think about the pattern that so often shows up for couples, we often don't see what our core needs are and how we're playing a part in the pattern. We only see the behavior of our partner. And. And sometimes that first piece of work for you and your person is to be able to say, wow, look at this tricky pattern that we. That we are in. Look at the things that we're doing that are leading us to feel further apart. And when we peel back the layers and we take away the request for sex or the pressure or the guilt, when we peel that back, what we then come into is really the. That core need of connection, attention, emotional safety, of feeling important, of intimacy and belonging. All of those things are our core needs. And so whenever people come to me with a sex issue, it's not just that I'm looking at what's happening sexually for them, but I'm also curious about what is happening when you reach for each other. How do you reach for each other? What do you do to bid? What do you do to get the attention from your partner? And how does your partner respond to your bids for connection? But there's more than just a pattern that is unfolding between two people here. And this is around understanding our desire. And this is not something that they teach us in sex ed. This is not something that people commonly talk about. We don't label this in the early days of our relationship. And it's often one of those aha moments early on for couples when I share this in the therapy room. So. So I'm talking about the two types of desire. And one of the first people that I heard talking about this was Emily Nagoski in her book come as you are. And if you haven't read that one or come together, that's her second one for couples. Those two are so important for your library. So let's talk about these two types. We're going to talk about spontaneous versus responsive desire. Spontaneous desire is what we see in the movies. It comes out of nowhere. There's a spark, and it often starts in, in our brains. For some women, I hear that when they are in a random moment during the day, they might have a desirous or arousing thought. And that comes from out of nowhere. Spontaneous desire is also more likely to be present in the early stages in your relationship, in the infatuation or the limerence stage. And it makes sense because in your brain you are thinking of all of the things about your partner. You send them that text, you do all the things to see them at the door, and you can't wait for them to arrive. That's for many people. It's not for all. But that is something that we characteristically see in those early stages of dating and that might also wax and wane for people. And having said that, there are still people who tap into spontaneous desire, which is, it comes out of nowhere. Responsive desire is different. It shows up after having safe stimulation to our bodies. And so it actually starts in our body that then sends the message to our brain. And so we think of feeling emotionally regulated, we think of feeling connected, we think of the warmup, we think of cuddling and just putting two bodies side by side. The way I describe responsive desire is, it's almost like, and this is the example Emily Nikowski uses, it's like someone sends you the party invite and it's in three weeks time, you know who's going to be there. You're so excited by that thought, you're like, yes, absolutely, we're going to be there. But then come Friday night and oh my goodness, you know, you've got your sweatpants on, you're tired, wouldn't it be nice to cancel? But you get dressed anyways, you go to the party and as you're there, you are in your body. Afterwards you say, I'm so glad we did this. This is often what people with responsive desire will say afterwards. I'm so glad we did that. Why don't we do that more often? But by knowing that you have responsive desire, we know then that it requires you to get into your body. And this is much different than the spontaneous desire. So responsive desire is, I'm not thinking about sex, but now that we're here and we're feeling close and I'm not thinking about that laundry basket that was on the bed because you put it, or I'm not doing the laundry list of all the things I have to do now that we're here, I'm interested and I feel that sense of desire. I think about this one couple that were able to talk about their different Types of desire. And the client with responsive desire was able to say, it's not that I don't want to want it, I just feel disconnected, I feel apart. And I feel like we haven't had this opportunity to come together. And Emily Nagoski talks about how we need to find what that room is in order to move into the. Yes. So what happens in the room? It's kind of like a playroom, a pleasure room. And this could be something like physical closeness, touch, going for a walk together, sitting on the couch and talking together, maybe rubbing feet or tickling on the forearm or combing hair. There's something there that says we're coming together, we're emotionally and physically connected, we're creating safety and calm to our nervous system. So then when it moves forward to the next step, it's not feeling. Feeling so abrupt. And the challenge here is that a lot of couples interpret the absence of spontaneous desire as disinterest or rejection. But responsive desire is just as valid as spontaneous desire. And really what it means is that couples need to come together and co create and figure out what is it about each other that makes ourselves go, and then how can we meet each other there? So when we understand that desire is contextual, we stop asking what's wrong with you? And start asking what helps you feel connected and open. So as we've talked about these two types of desires, just pause here for a moment and give yourself time to answer this question. What conditions help me feel most connected and willing to be intimate? What conditions help me? Because it's often not even the sense of your partner looking at you, doing the butt grab or the boob grab or saying, hey, do you wanna. That would work for someone with spontaneous desire, but it might be something like, let's go put our bodies together, let's go cuddle, let's go for that walk and hold hands and talk about the day. What is it that helps you? Or that's kind of the adding on to things. Maybe it's the removal of things. So things like you have a shower so your bodies are clean, your partner does the dishes that night and takes over putting the kids to bed so you have more energy in your bucket. It's the division of the mental load and the emotional and cognitive labor in the home. Explore those things with that prompt. What conditions help me feel most connected and willing to be intimate? Okay, let's turn now towards the partner who feels like sex is too much. This is the partner who often identifies as the default parent, the project maker, the the project manager, the peacekeeper. Here's what I hear in sessions. Sex feels like another thing on my list, another thing that someone wants from me, which takes away the pleasure, the play, the connection. In one case, I remember a mother of three had said, I wake up to a toddler in my face. I give all day at work, I come home, I switch to mom mode. By the end of the night, there's nothing left for me, for me, let alone for someone else. And this partner. I think what is so important for us to understand is it's, this is the relationship skill building is when a partner is saying, you don't say yes, you don't have sex for me. With me, you always say no. We need to flip that into more curiosity. We need to try to understand what's happening for them because that person isn't withholding sex out of cruelty. Most partners in my office are not doing that. Instead what she's doing is she's self protecting. She's saying, my nervous system is in a constant state of vigilance and sex requires me to let go and I can't. Here's something deeper that I want us to consider. Many people in this role are also emotionally parentified. They've learned their value comes from doing, pleasing, anticipating needs. They are living in their heads. It feels safe to be in their heads because that helps them navigate the world. It's an old protective code, coping mechanism. But what that means though is that they're touched out, they're empty. And so then the idea of you touching them when they're empty doesn't feel intimate, it feels invasive. It's that one more thing that layers onto this. And this is where that trauma informed lens is so important. And that the request for sex may feel to one person like connection, but to the other it's like pressure from a system they were never allowed to rest in. In my book, I didn't sign up for this. I talked about that over function, under function dynamic. And Corinne and Peter were the example of this where Corinne was expected to hold boundaries and manage the step kids and then also at the same time switch into this sex goddess at night with her partner. And it was really hard to put both of them together. And of course it is because she isn't feeling safe and protected. There were more background details with this couple in the book. You can go ahead and read it. But it really did help to understand what it was like for her growing up and how that meant that she could feel safe in her partnership today. If this is where you find yourself. Let's pause for a moment. I want to make this hands on for you. Something that could be helpful for you is to spend some time thinking about what is your yes and your no in terms of sensory. Sensory meaning. Let's think smell, touch, taste. I mean, if you ate something spicy, that's often not going to lead you into wanting to have sex. If your belly is not feeling good after a full meal, things that you hear, things that you see. So I want you to go ahead and spend some time thinking about what's the yes and what's the no. And is your bedroom, for example, a a place of yes. Is it set up so that you don't have a pile of laundry on your dresser that's going to distract you? Right. So I'm thinking sight. Now let's talk about touch. What kinds of touch feels really good for you that can move you into that yes space? And we know from the nervous system perspective that your nervous system ends up feeling touched out and on edge after being with kids all day because they are kind of doing this like tickling, soft touch with you. And that can sometimes feel threatening. And so instead then if your partner comes and like gently rubs their hand against you or like taps you slightly, that might feel like an intrusion. And play with this a little bit, get curious. Could they come and give you a full pressure hug? Could they lie on top of you with a good amount of pressure in different places? Right. That's kind of the idea of the weighted blanket or squeezing a pillow. Is it about you laying on your stomach and then putting weight on your back in some safe way or your lower back Again, just play around with what's the yes and what's the no? And then spend some time understanding when your body is closed, when it's a no to intimacy, not because your partner has said something to you or said, hey, do you want to? But because you're missing that sense of safety in your environment or within yourself, or even that sense of space and expansion. I'm also thinking about how important autonomy and freedom is here for so many people. The idea of power as well. These are our core needs. We need this where give yourself a chance to explore. What does it feel like for me in terms of me opening up to my partner after a moment, I've had to go be on my own. When I've gone to the running club or the yoga class or the paint class, or I went to the coffee shop and did something just for me. Where do you land then? That's freedom, autonomy, having time apart. Right. Because healthy interdependence is about building that interconnectedness between intimacy and autonomy. And how do we then get that? And everybody. This is the thing too, always about my podcast episodes, about the work with relationships. It's about finding what fits for you, and it's like a roadmap for you. And then it's about once you can discover that within yourself, how do you then communicate it with your partner? I'll get to that a little bit later. Let's talk first. Now we're going to flip to the other partner because, of course, there's two of you here that we want to consider. So many male clients will say to me, I just want to feel close. This is not all male clients who say it this way, but many have learned this is our socialized realization that sex is connection. And we think about this in the sense of how boys and girls are raised. Girls are taught to only have sex in love. I think this is changing, but I do think that this is a huge piece of what we're carrying forward. I'm going to also tell you the age of the people who wrote this in at the end. And I think the age is also important. I'm intentionally saving this to the end. Okay, so for many people, we learn that you only have for. For women, mostly, you only have sex when you're in love. That's the primary lesson that you were taught. Save yourself until you find the person you love. For men, however, for boys, they learn about orgasms, ejaculation, masturbation. They learn about sex much earlier. And so they don't learn the connection between love and sex in the same way that women do. And so for many men, sex, it's not just about pleasure, but it's their primary channel for emotional vulnerability. And for many men, they're not taught how to express their softer needs. Like, I miss you. I feel lonely, I need reassurance, I feel inadequate, or I worry that I'm failing you. Instead, they reach for what's familiar and more socially acceptable, which is physical touch. I actually had this super powerful moment with a couple recently where the man said, when you do that, it disarms me. And it was this really powerful emotional moment in session. And we were actually talking about appreciation and gratitude and, like, sinking into that. And when she could give that to him, he gets out of his head and gets into being present with her. And it's just such this beautiful modeling. And so it's not that men only want sex. It's that they haven't learned how to connect emotionally. I remember one client sharing. I know she needs to talk, but I don't even know how to say what I'm feeling. Many men will say that to me, and that's the challenge, is that we are looking for that. We want that from our partners, especially today. And I remember this person saying, when we're close physically, when I feel that physical closeness. And this wasn't even for this couple specifically. It wasn't even about intercourse and orgasm. This was about just physical touch and closeness and hugs and kissing and making out and cuddling on the couch, putting our phones down in order to cuddle on the couch. The wall. This is what my client said. The wall between us comes down. I just feel so safe and connected. I don't want to go on a tangent here, but I'm going to. As I raise my son, something I'm constantly thinking about is how, oh, gosh, it chokes me up. It's how I am the first figure of what it means to love a woman. And I have to break through some of my own stuff that I carry with me to stay present and to stay hugging and to stay close and tender and soft. And that's not to say I don't want people to walk away saying, oh, a woman has to be soft and tender. That's not what this is. But this is about building that safety and closeness with our sons. And I think people who grew up in 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, early 2000s, the physical closeness and connection wasn't always there because of a byproduct of her growing up. I'm not blaming parents. This is the byproduct of growing up from the silent generation to the boomer generation. Here we are. And so a lot of people don't know how to do this. And there's a wall that shows up. Okay, so here's what I want you to practice doing as a couple. I want you to practice naming the bid. I have another episode, bids for connection. If you're not sure what this is, they can be silent bids. They can be verbal. They could be looks in their eyes. They could talk about the grass. I shared the story about Greg talking about the grass once. I want you to practice identifying. Is this a bid for sexual or a bid for closeness? Because here's then the other piece that we do in relationships, we get stuck with the negative sentiment override. And this is, I only see the negatives. And then even if you're doing something, I Give it a negative interpretation. Our brains are wired to scan for threat, so of course we see the negativity. That negativity then leads us to build these negative assumptions and stories about our partner. And if this is your story, he only comes to me for sexual. We want to start finding the other moments that he comes to you for a way of closeness and connection. What does that look like? Is this around saying to you, I was thinking about calling the kids today. Was it about. Is it about saying, you know, my golf game this week, you know, I shot a birdie and all the things, is it about the grass? You know, Greg's example of the grass, but look for it in some different way and then ask yourself, is this the bid for sex or a bid for closeness? Part of what we do in therapy and the work I do with couples is reframing and redefining what intimacy looks like as a partnership. You have to have this conversation because first, again, we've already got the backings of this. I've already talked about this in this sense. But a lot of people define closeness and intimacy as sexual sex. And so when we're in various seasons, seasons being stressful life events, job changes, sandwich generation between parents and kids, as our health changes, perimenopause, menopause, postpartum, all of these different seasons, when intercourse goes on the back burner. Because for whatever reasons, remember, my way of understanding sex in desire is you cannot have sex with a backpack of bricks on. And if you're in a season of life wearing this heavy backpack of bricks and on top of it, pressure from your partner, desires flatlined, you're not going to want to be having sex. But we need to then find other ways to rekindle that spark and to build intimacy. So when sex is the only way to connect, it becomes a pressure point, it becomes this performance, it becomes this must. And that loses all the good things that we need around sex, which is flow, pleasure, play, being in the moment. But when we shift what intimacy actually is, couples engaging in slow, intentional, non goal oriented touch, safety, emotional connection and closeness can re enter the system. I think about attachment theory, right? So our partners are our attachment figure. And we need the four S's that Dr. Dan Siegel talks about. Secure, safe, soothed and seen. Oh, if those are so important. Do you see me? Do you see what I'm feeling? Do you see what I'm struggling with? Do can you soothe me? Can you, you know, come to me?

Scene soothes safe. Are you taking what I share with you and throwing it back at me and using my vulnerability as a weapon, that doesn't feel good. Are you dismissing me? Oh, dismissiveness is such a desire killer. And so all of these ways where we build safety is so important. So here's what I'm going to encourage you to do. If you're listening to this podcast episode, I want you to know that there is a way to feel closer without having to do an overhaul. And I think the thing that we get tripped up in is we think, okay, let's do the big romantic gesture. When am I going to do the big romantic gesture? I got to find the time and I have to schedule that. No, we're going to peel it back. And we want small things frequently. If you want to spend the next 10 days feeling closer to your partner, join my more than roommates challenge. We are starting soon. I've got the link in the show notes for you. But this is a powerful way. So many couples have told me that when they finish the challenge, they want to kiss their partner. They feel closer. They have now things they can do each day that are leading them to feel that sense of desire and arousal. But here's what I want to encourage you for today. Schedule connection nights without the expectations of sex. We get into a routine. And if that routine includes scrolling on our phone watching that show, we all have a show that we like to binge on. But we've got to get out of that. We need to find 10 minutes to to connect. It might actually look different for everyone. And for each night that you're in, maybe it's playing a new card game. Get out the cards. Maybe it's learning a new game. Maybe it's going for a walk in a different neighborhood. Maybe it's laying in bed and talking or getting a card deck. That is something fun to play with and explore and ask each other questions. I also have my 100 questions to deepen your connection. I'll put that one in the show notes too. As well. Okay, practice. Touch. Touch. That is a non demand pressure. And actually, as I say this, I'm remembering that I have my five steps to nurture your intimacy. That's a free guide for you. I'll put that link in the show notes as well. But this guide really came out of that common question from people, which is, we're not having sex. Where do I even begin? This is it. Non pressured touch. Touch each other and find different objects. Get a feather. Get a scarf. Something else that feels good. And explore bodies, but in a way that says this doesn't have to end in orgasm. This last one. Couples in my therapy room do not like when I get them to do this, but I'm going to nudge you outside of your comfort zone. Spend some time tonight you've listened to this podcast episode. Spend some time tonight looking into each other's eyes. So you can do this two ways. You can put your foreheads together and you can hold hands if you want. So you're sitting cross legged in front of each other or you're in bed, whatever feels comfortable. Put your foreheads together and just focus on each other's eyes. And I want you to take six slow breaths and just focus on each other's eyes. Yes. This might feel uncomfortable for you and I'm going to challenge you to do it and giggle and laugh, whatever comes through to it. I remember one couple I did this with several years ago and when they parted, they came in escalated, they came in in their spiral. When they parted, she ended up tearing and he ended up learning new things about her. He ended up softening and tearing and she ended up learning new things about him. It's just an opportunity to explore and be present with each other. If you don't want to put your foreheads together, that's okay. But soften your eyes, stare at each other, focus on your breathing, rising and falling of your chest. And the goal of these practices, of course, is to restore your int intimacy without triggering, shutting down, rejecting, feeling abandoned. Okay, let's shift into now, how are we going to talk about this? And I want to normalize just how hard having these conversations is. And this is what keeps people stuck. We end up talking about things that we don't want. Stop asking me for sex. And that doesn't work because that just shuts your partner down. And we'll then talk about things in very vagging and unclear ways. And this conversation really does require you to spend some time in your own self. Discovery. Discovery. What lights me up? What do I want and need? And I will say that physical connection in some way is important in a relationship. And this is about navigating. How do we do this in a way that is fun and playful and pleasurable. I think the hard thing about relationships is that we come at it from our two separate sides. And it's like one person says, I in from this question is I just want to have you come be in my world and not overwhelm me and see all that I'm doing. And let's just like hang out together. And then the other person says, I want sex. And you will not win in your relationship if you both stay stuck in that. And it's instead that it's like, okay, so how do we then find a space of co creating of doing this together? Because I see that's important to you. And now I want you to see that this is important, important to me. How do we redefine that? And it is about going to your partner, not in a way of we need to do something else, it can't just be sex, but in a way of opening this up. Tell me what sex means to you. Tell me how you feel close. Tell me when we have sex, what thoughts and feelings do you have about us? And when you enter into that conversation, notice what happens inside of you. Do you soften? Do you feel closer? Do you feel aroused? What shows up? So here are some ideas that you could approach your partner with. So you might say something like, I want to understand what intimacy means to you. You might say, I notice we've been missing each other in this area. Can we talk about how we each experience closeness? And the goal here is for you to really listen and to understand them. And if they say, you say no to sex, I want to have sex. That's not the answer. That is not the full stop answer. The full exploration is, tell me more. When we're having sex, what is it about that that leads us to, that leads you to feel close? What part of this is it that you like? What part of it is that you don't like? How do you feel when we go and do these other things? And then also too, you might ask, what helps you feel most desired and connected to me? Here's what I tell couples about these convers. These are not bed or bedtime conversations. Have these at the dining room table, which I know for some people can feel a little taboo because it's like we're having to talk about sex outside of the bedroom. But talking about something is going to help you build more understanding for each other rather than coming at it with your own assumptions. In session, I sometimes give my clients a shared journal prompt to write to each other. And so if you need to spend some time thinking about this apart from each other, asking yourself, one thing I wish you knew about my experience of intimacy is I want you to remember that the solution of this dynamic is not to change one partner, but instead to create a shared understanding and build a bridge between your different experiences. And you can ask each other what helps you feel open? What shuts you down? How do you like to Connect what would help you feel safe initiating or receiving? And I think it's really important for you to recognize that your partner coming to you with sex is not because they just want sex. It's because this is their way of connecting with you. And so now how do we then move towards a yes and to activities that feel good and exciting for you? There's always so much more to explore. When it comes to sex. I often think about what does it mean about ourselves? What are the messages we learned about letting go, about freedom, about desire? I also think there's an element in here that we haven't fully talked about, which is, what does it mean to build anticipation? Sex and desire require anticipation, intention. What are the touches that light the spark inside of you? What are the things that your partner does? And could we even frame emotional connection as being that spark igniter? I think about this one couple that I worked with where she was able to say to her partner, it feels like you just come to me wanting sex. But what I need is for you to be in my world. I need you to come and.

Be present with me and to take interest in what I'm doing and to do it side by side with me. And that is the piece that helped her to then feel connected to him and then to. To feel desire and aroused. Okay, if you recognize yourself in today's episode, I want you to know this. You are not alone. The desire differences in a couple, the ways we look for connection and intimacy are often different for people. And I see so many couples that get stuck in this cycle of mismatched desire. But when we zoom out, we can see that it's not really about libido, but instead it's about emotional safety, about identity, communication, and connection. I'm going to tell you now that the person who sent in this question is 68 years old and her husband is 70. And I imagine knowing this age notes side by side. The way I describe responsive desire is. It's almost like. And this is the example, Emily Nicoling, the other couples I worked with at this age, is that this is not the first time that you've been in this pattern, and that this is likely something that has been happening for a really long time. And I think at some point, people. One partner says, I've been doing this for all these years, and now I don't want to. And I'm not talking about ending the relationship. I'm talking about. I want us to experience something different. I want to experience play and pleasure and freedom. And now the question Is how do we get this? Because saying to your partner, I don't want you to come to me for sex just doesn't work in a relationship. But instead it's, I want you to come and be like this with me so then we can do more of whatever that looks like. Okay, I'm gonna end this by saying, keep being curious. Keep having those hard conversations. And I know especially around sex, we often don't like to talk about it, we don't like to lay. Excuse me, Choices. It's like someone sends you the party invite and it's in three weeks time, you know who's going to be bullet. We struggle, and I think truly for both people, but I know also very much so for women, that women struggle to say what it is that you want and need. And I think if you are having the same kind of sex every single time you have sex, you are not going to be enjoying it. You will not look forward to it. It's, you know, this beautiful thing to be in a relationship. And your partner can know what makes you tick. And that is also at the core of what kills desire. Because desire is about exploration and pleasure and trying something different. And express expressing to your partner. I really wish that you would. Or I thought that it'd be so fun there. You're so excited by that thought. You're like, yes, absolutely, we're going to be. But then come Friday night and if you could. All right, thank you for being here. I'm so grateful that I get to sit with you in this chair that you. Oh my goodness, you know, you've got your sweatpants on, you're tired. Wouldn't it be nice to cancel? But you get dressed. You clicked play today that you spent this time with me. If something resonated from today's episode, send it to someone, share it with someone you love. Don't forget to click. Subscribe up at the top and leave me a few words. I love seeing the reviews. It's also what helps people find this podcast. Podcast. All right, until next time, take good care of you and remember, you are right where you need to be. I have to remind you at the end of every podcast episode that this information is for educational purposes only and does not substitute for the care from a licensed mental health care provider. Anyways, you go to the party and as you're there, you are in your body. Afterwards you say, I'm so glad we did this. This is often what people with responsive desire will say afterwards words, I'm so glad we did that. Why don't we do that more often? But by knowing that you have responsive desire, we know then that it requires you to get into your body. And this is much different than the spontaneous desire. So responsive desire is, I'm not thinking about sex, but now that we're here and we're feeling close and I'm not thinking about that laundry basket that was on the bed because you put it away, or I'm not doing the laundry list of all the things I have to do. Now that we're here, I'm interested and I feel that sense of desire. I think about this one couple that were able to talk about their different types of desire, and the client with responsive desire was able to say, it's not that I don't want to want it. I just feel disconnected, I feel apart. And I feel like we haven't had this opportunity to come together. And Emily Nagoski talks about how we need to find what that room is in order to move into the. Yes. So what happens in the room? It's kind of like a playroom, a pleasure room. And this could be something like physical closeness, touch, going for a walk together, sitting on the couch and talking together, maybe rubbing feet or tickling on the forearm or combing hair. There's something there that says we're coming together, we're emotionally and physically connected, we're creating safety and calm to our nervous system. So then when it moves forward to the next step, it's not feeling so abrupt. And the challenge here is that a lot of couples interpret the absence of spontaneous desire as disinterest or rejection. But responsive desire is just as valid as spontaneous desire. And really what it means is that couples need to come together and co create and figure out what is it.