Why Play Works When Kids Won't Listen

There was a moment recently in my house that felt very familiar, and not in a good way. It was the end of one of those super long days. Everyone was tired. I just wanted to clock out for bedtime, and I was trying to get one child into pajamas while the other one was trying to talk to me, and then my phone was buzzing, and mentally I was just trying to track everything that still needed to get done before the morning. And what started as a simple request, "Let's get our pajamas on," turned into resistance and then frustration. And then that familiar tightening in my chest that says, why is this so hard? I could feel myself moving into efficiency mode, directive, serious, taskmaster. And I could also feel the energy in the room getting heavier by the second. And then something shifted. Instead of repeating myself again, I got down on the floor and I said to my kiddo, okay, we can only get to the bathroom if we crawl like spies on a mission. And just like that, everything changed. The resistance softened, that tension broke, and we were suddenly laughing and moving together instead of against each other. And it struck me in that moment just how quickly we lose access to playfulness as adults, not just with our kids, but with our partners, our friends, and even ourselves. We're so quick to productivity mode, to survival mode, and somewhere along the way we forget that connection grows in moments of lightness. Today's guest has built her entire approach around this idea. Dr. Kim Van Dusen, also known as The Parentologist, is a licensed family therapist, registered play therapist, creator of The Parentologist platform, and author of the upcoming book Parenting Through Play. For nearly 25 years, she has helped parents transform communication and cooperation with their children by meeting them in what she calls the universal language of play. And today we're talking about why playfulness is not just a parenting strategy, but a real superpower. Superpower. Let's go into today's session. Dr. Kim, your new book is called Parenting Through Play, but this isn't just about being silly or entertaining your kids. What makes your coined and innovative parenting style different compared to what we've seen traditionally, and why is it so effective at shifting behavior and building connection with our kids?

That's a great question, Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, and thanks for having me here. I'm excited to talk about this. So I combined 3 evidence-based modalities in this book: play therapy, solution-focused therapy, and positive behavior interventions and supports. Those 3, when combined, are the trifecta to how to get better behavior, how to have a deeper connection, and how to have better communication in a parent-child relationship. When combined, there's less power struggles, minimized tantrums and meltdowns, less defiance, and a lot more fun. So yes, it's not just about play. Play is in the title. Play is the fun a fundamental part of the parenting style that I've somewhat coined and implemented through this book, through hours and hours of working with— as a therapist, working with children and their families, as a mom of two with my own children at home. And I've seen it work firsthand, professionally and personally, and it just creates a more peaceful home, and it just cultivates more playfulness and, and more fun, and ultimately better behavior and a deeper connection, which I think all parents would want.

Can you expand on that definition of play, because I think as adults we lose connection to what play actually is. So I'd be curious to hear more about what that actually looks like.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and I agree. I think somewhere along the line our culture has told us, our society has told us, when you're an adult you don't play. It's not appropriate to play. You're going to look silly. People are going to judge you. You might look immature. You know, there's all those messages that we receive from society saying that we shouldn't play. Even if we're a parent with a small child, the child's supposed to play. But if the parent joins in, it's somewhat looked at in a judgy way. So I think a lot of times when parents or adults don't play, it's because they're inundated with those messages from our, from our culture. And I think that they believe it themselves and/or are anxious about play. They're anxious about what other people might think of them if they look silly or playful, especially in public. It may feel uncomfortable because they may not have had a good relationship or playful relationship growing up, and play wasn't valued or looked at as something beneficial in their own home. So I think part of it is the anxiety around play, and part of it is around the inhibitions, or the, you know, when we let go and we free ourselves and we're able to just run through the sprinklers without worrying about what anyone thinks, you know, with just having fun and connecting with our kids. It's such a freeing feeling. And I think a lot of times I do— I've spent hours in the therapy room ultimately somewhat teaching parents how to let go of those inhibitions and how to let go of the anxiety around play and actually be connected to their inner child again and be playful again and You know, once they hit it, once they have that feeling back, it's like this huge release of, you know, their nervous system, you know, goes back to baseline. Like, they just feel so good. And when they see how it works with their children and how to connect with them through that play, it just lends to just such a better relationship. And, you know, it's, um, it's a beautiful thing when you see it, but it's hard to achieve unless you really have that value of play. And until you really can let go and say, okay, I believe in this, I'm going to try it wholeheartedly, and then implement it.

I'm having 2 memories. I'm having one where I was a 25-year-old grad student, very like finances were so tight, trying to finish my— well, I was midway in my PhD at this point, and I decided that I was going to take an extra year of the program because I had fast— in Ontario, I was the last year to do the 5th year of our high schools called OACs in Ontario. I fast-tracked high school. I went from my 4 years of undergraduate and then right into my PhD program. So I was young when I started my PhD. And at 25, I decided I'm going to take an extra year in my PhD because I need to live. And what that afforded me to do was, one, travel a little bit, but two, I took a month off of school and I went to take care of my niece who was 15 months old at the time. And I can remember— so as soon as you said it calms our nervous system, I remember first thinking, caring for my niece from 8 AM to 4 PM is the most exhausting thing I've ever done. And so when she would wake up from her— we have such a special bond— but when she wakes— would wake up from her nap, I'd be so tired. And transitions— we would have to transition. And I remember I remember the moment I started to be silly and playful, and it was like just this aliveness and then the laughter between us. And I remember she would be in her crib and I'd come into the room and then I'd start to dance really silly, and then she'd be laughing harder and I would be laughing harder. So as you're talking about the nervous system and how it regulates us, I was calling to mind my first memory as a quote-unquote adult playing with a child in that way. But then fast forward to becoming a parent, and it was tough. It was almost this, like, I had forgotten that play could be an option, that everything didn't have to be so, you know. And I think what we're good as parents and mothers is we're like taskmasters. Okay, you know, sleep here, play here, food here, sleep, play, like, you know, we gotta stay on. And then we just lose that ability to be silly and Connected. So that, that really came to mind as I was hearing you say that.

Yeah. And I use this analogy or metaphor a lot is, you know, when two dogs meet and this is, this is a little silly in itself, but when two dogs meet, they connect through their sensory system. They connect through sniffing each other, right? To see who they are and if they like each other and, you know, and that's how they connect. Two adults connect by talking. When we meet someone or when we connect with someone, we say, hey, how are you doing? You know, what are your interests? You know, we connect them through talk. When two children connect, they connect through play. They connect, you know, "Will you play with me?" Or maybe they don't even use their words. Maybe they're just at the playground and they're playing together and one child walks up to another and starts joining in on whatever they're playing with. So it'd be silly to think that two adults would connect by sniffing each other. I mean, maybe some do, I don't know, but, but you know, it'd be silly to think that they would connect through, through sniffing, right? It just, it's absurd. It sounds absurd to do that. And it'd be just as absurd to assume that two parents or two children would connect through talking, like how parents do. So it's just, it's the same sort of thing, but children connect through play, that is their language. So to have that at the forefront and connect with them through that, I call it Play It Out Parenting, but really, you know, playing it out a situation when there's a tantrum arising, when there's defiance starting to surface, when, you know, emotional dysregulation is escalating, to try to talk to them out and talk it out and have a logical conversation with them, why are you acting like this? What's wrong? Tell me. A child's probably going to shut down or they're going to get emotionally even more dysregulated and start crying. Crying, maybe run to the room, whatever the case may be. So when a parent connects to them through play, and, you know, and I have lots of, lots of examples in the book of how to do that, that's what we should expect of our, of our children. We shouldn't expect for them to talk like adults would, just like adults shouldn't expect to sniff like, like a dog would.

So how does playfulness change that emotional dynamic in the moment then? Because it's— I think I hear you saying it's not just what we're doing, but there's something physiologically happening for, for children.

Yeah, you know, so, you know, I know you're a mom too And we have kids around the same age. And so, you know, think about a moment that you're exhausted, you're overwhelmed, you had, you know, you, you had a busy work day. We do a lot of the same things in our professional life. And so you had a lot of clients that day, podcast episodes, you name it. And you know, kind of the last thing you wanna do is, you know, you said you're a taskmaster, you wanna make dinner, you wanna get things done, you want them to clean your room, you want them to comply and they're not, you know, they're—

Kim, the one for me is bedtime.

Yeah.

Like, it's like I have this, and I've talked about in the podcast before, I have this 8 PM where I'm imagining it's a punch in and punch out clock. It's 8 PM and Mommy goes offline. She's done. She's done for the day. And especially if it's day 26, I know it's day 26 because I'm like, I can't do it, I have to punch out, it's 8 PM.

No, it's the same thing, you know. And especially, I think, feel like one of the hardest times for me is that 4 to 6 PM, right? It's like the witching hour, like when they were little. But like, it doesn't ever stop because it's like, okay, there's homework, there's bath time, or there's, you know, meal time and then bedtime. It's like that whole span of that late afternoon after we've had a very long day already as it is. And, you know, a lot of times parents don't think of play when they think of trying to discipline their kids. They don't think of, oh, how can I make this situation into a playful one? Or when we're triggered and we feel like our kids are doing something that they're not supposed to do, it infuriates us, especially if we're low-tempered and we're not really that emotionally regulated from, from our own day. So a lot of times they don't think of that, and so it makes it even worse, right? We get escalated, they react, they respond, they get more escalated, and it just keeps going up from there. And I say in the book, either until one person yells and one person cries, or vice versa, or both. So, you know, looking at a situation— so a lot of times, let's just take cleaning up toys. That's just kind of a simple one. So when, when a parent asks a child to clean up their toys, let's say before mealtime, before bedtime, and they're not listening, they're not following directions, they're still playing, they're saying no, whatever the case may be, usually parents go to— typically, based on our own family of origin, the way we were raised ourselves by our own parents— they might say something like, okay, well, they might go to a bribe. Okay, well, if you, if you do this, then I'll give you A, B, or C, right? It's kind of like a bribe. I, I call it sometimes a reinforcement depending on how it's delivered. Or they might go to a punishment. Okay, if you don't clean up your toys right now, I'm going to take away your iPad tomorrow, or you can no more TV for the rest of the day, whatever it is. So it's either a bribe, a punishment. Sometimes they might physically try and grab them away from that situation and say, and put them in a timeout, send them to their room, whatever the case may be. So what I'm just—

insert there having a highly sensitive child, you cannot insert that punishment because that just completely spirals them into, I'm such a bad kid. And then it's gone to the, just take all my toys. Yeah, I mean, and so I'm not perfect. I have dabbled in lots of different things before, and I can remember one time leading into the, like, there's a consequence to this, and then this kiddo was like, just take away all my toys, I'm such a bad kid anyways. And I was thinking, "Oh my word, what did I just do?

This is awful." Yep, and then it leads to the mom guilt, and it leads to just, you know, feeling—

and there my kiddo's completely dysregulated. Now instead of entering into something with them, I'm creating a 30-minute setback, which is then both of our nervous systems just going offline. So, right.

And so that's why I feel like my book is so effective, and that's why it works well. To even go back to your first question, is that when you respond to a child using their language through play, dissipates all of that, right? It dissipates the power struggles, the guilt, the "I'm a bad kid, I'm a bad mom," you know, because you don't even go there. Yes, I have a whole section in my book about how to set healthy limits and consequences, how to, you know, if there is something that, you know, it's not a free-for-all for kids. It's not like, oh, everything's solved through play. It's not. It's not all rainbows and sunshine. There are some times for natural consequences, maybe some predetermined consequences, and some limits and boundaries, you know, validating their emotions but not necessarily all their behaviors, and then teaching them using a teaching moment to teach them the skills on how to regulate themselves when they're escalated or, you know, whatever the case may be. So there is a whole section of the book on that too. It's like I said, not just about play, it's just about, you know, how to respond to children in the most effective way based on evidence-based research. Um, but going back to cleaning up the toys, so in that moment, instead of the bribing, instead of the punishment, instead of sending them away, whatever the case may be, you say— you make it playful and try that first. If that doesn't work, which most of the time it does, but if it doesn't, then you can maybe go to, like I said, consequence of giving them a choice and saying, okay, you can either choose to pick up your toys right now, and if you do, then you can, you know, maybe have 15 extra minutes on tech time, maybe 15 extra minutes to stay up later tonight, maybe 15 minutes to watch your favorite TV show, like one episode, or whatever, whatever it is. Which sounds a little, like I said, like a bribe, but it's more of a reinforcement of saying it's your choice. You can choose to comply, and then you get this extra bonus for listening and following directions. Or if you don't clean up your toys right now, then you will have to get 15 minutes less of bedtime or whatever it is, like you have that predetermined quote-unquote outcome or consequence. That's when the play doesn't work in that moment, maybe because they're too tired, they're too hungry, whatever the case is. But you respond and say something like, the toy factory is closing in 15 minutes. We have to get all the toys to the toy factory before it closes. So grab your, you know, a box or a dump truck or whatever it is that's nearby, that, you know, a basket, like those little grocery baskets that they push around, and fill up the toy, fill up as many toys as you can in there, and then take it in the toy box, essentially, if you have a toy box or bins or whatever it is, and That's the toy factory. They have to deliver them all before it closes. So that's just one quick way. And again, that's probably more for the literal ones, not, you know, the younger ones versus the later elementary. You can always adjust it. Or sometimes with my kids, even my 9-year-old still loves this. He just thinks it's fun. You know, hop on one foot like a bunny or a frog and get, you know, and take your, you know, as you're that animal, take it to the toy bin or whatever it is, and they can kind of act it out. One of my favorite ones, and this works with my 12-year-old too, is called Freeze Clean. And you basically put on one of their favorite songs. You put on the music. While the music's playing, they clean up as quickly as they can, and if you have siblings, they can do a, like, kind of a— I'll say competition, but you can kind of make it a little bit of a competition if you'd like. Um, but they clean as fast as they can, and then when the music stops, they freeze, and they just do this. And by the time the music's done, typically the room's cleaned up. And it sounds so simple, but that's the thing. They think because we're maybe dysregulated, our nervous system is, is not where it needs to be, we end up reacting more quickly in the moment to just try to get that quick fix. Okay, well, I'm just gonna send them away or punish them versus the easiest way, the most effective way that keeps you both regulated is doing something like this through play. So it actually makes like a parent's job easier and more emotionally connected in a positive way versus going the punitive route.

I love those examples. I think that phrase one is such a good idea. I can totally see myself doing it with both of my kids, they're almost 11 and 9. So I think that's like something so tangible we can do. And I think sometimes I've heard more about the fuck around and find out parenting style that's been talked about online. And I think sometimes there's this piece that we're missing around parenting, which is it's not meant— what's, what's my train of thought here? I'm trying to say, like, I think sometimes it just feels like it's so heavy, like it's one more thing to do, and that no matter what we do, it feels like we're doing it wrong or we're not getting it right or something. And, and when I think about bringing in play this way, it feels accessible for everybody, for all of us.

Yeah, and I, I even, I have a whole chapter on, you know, for the, uh, play with the overwhelmed, over-exhausted, overtired parent, and there's a whole chapter just of how-tos of you just open up the chapter and just pick one. Literally, there's like little paragraphs, little how-tos on if you're just, you just can't do it that day. Like you just can't. I love it. And just different things. Like, you know, one of my favorites that I share about often is spa day. My, my daughter came up with this and I was so tired one day and I said, I just, I can't play with you. I'm just so tired, honey. And she was like, well, let's play spa. And I would just lay down on the couch or on the bed. The lights are dim. She puts on some spa music and she gets some cucumbers or just brushes my hair, reads me a book. And so she's really doing all the work, but I'm still connecting with her through play, even though I just get to lay there. Sometimes I think in the past one time I at least fell asleep at least once, you know, because I'm just so exhausted, you know, but you're still connecting them like almost passively through play, but you're not being passive because you're still engaging with them and you're still maybe having conversation with them, but you're, you're not having to sit on the floor. I always like to debunk the myth that to play with a child, you have to sit on the floor and play dolls or you know, cars or whatever it is and have active dialogue with them. You don't, you don't. It's just the little micro play practices that you can sprinkle in throughout your day, whether it's how you actually parent with these interventions I give, or like I said, in these moments, you know, where you can just sit and let's say your daughter wants to play princess or superhero, maybe, you know, superhero or princess, take either one, whatever your child might prefer. And all you do is put on a superhero mask or a little tiara crown and sit in a chair as you're just watching them play, but you're still engaged because you still have a little bit of the roleplay costume on and you're still engaging in maybe the dialogue once in a while, but you don't actually have to sit on the floor and expend all of your energy, you know, playing with your child. Let them do the work and just engage with them and just be present with them.

So just for people who are listening, I want to remind them that your book comes out on May 5th and it's called Parenting Through Play. And I absolutely love that you have said there's a whole chapter on your how-tos. It's like, pick what you need in that moment, because I think that's the piece that I really crave for in books. Is this element of how do I just do it? Because I need you to tell me all those moments.

So I try to keep it as practical and simple as possible because that's what I need as a parent, right? And that's what I've noticed my parents in, in therapy have needed all these years is it's not theoretical, it's not scientific. Yes, there's a few things in there about how the brain works and how a child brain works and how a parent's brain works and sometimes how that doesn't align exactly. But, um, but I made it really as simple and practical and easy as possible so a parent can just flip to that chapter if they need it or just flip to that intervention or whatever it is, even And if it's on anxiety or hyperactivity, sensory-seeking kids, I mean, whatever the case is, there's something in there for everybody.

When you and I were talking about preparing for this podcast, I'd said to you, gosh, I would love for us to broaden this conversation to even how we as adults lose play. And I'm curious what you think about that from your experience, from you as a parent, what, what comes up for you around that?

Yeah, I think, I think it's true because, you know, like I said, I think culture teaches us that play isn't acceptable after a certain age. And I think parents again, especially if they're, if they're not regulated themselves, they are going to just want compliance as quickly as possible. And so we're going to parent the way we were parented. So a lot of adults these days were raised by baby boomers, maybe even some Gen Xers that, you know, parented children, and the way that they did it was through punitive means. They, you know, you don't do this, you go to your room. You don't do this, this gets taken away. You don't do this, you know, um, and that's not really the most effective way. In the moment it might be because the child might go into fight or flight mode and they might get a little traumatized by it, you know, all the yelling, all the, all that, you know, and they want to, they want to please their caregiver, they want to please their parents and do the right thing, but they're being told, you know, you're like you said, like they start learning those messages, I'm a bad kid, I always mess up, I never do anything right, and they start internalizing it, uh, which obviously affects their self-worth later on in life. But, you know, I think that we as parents, as adults, were raised that way, and it's hard to get out of that modality. It's hard to change that rhythm, to change that pattern. So I think it— to parent in this new kind of modern way is very innovative, it's very intentional. You have to really think about it, and there is some front-loading. I'm not saying it's gonna— you're not going to be this, you know, play-based parent all of a sudden, and all your, all your problems are going to dissipate. That's not necessarily the case. It's just, it's definitely a more effective way that kind of meets that's— I think a lot of those kids that were parented this way are now rebelling and they've been rebelling and they said, "I don't want to raise my kids like that." So they kind of went and overcompensated the other direction to a more gentle parenting that became very, very popular in the last couple of years of, you know, not really giving kids consequences, letting them, like you said, the "let's just see how it goes" and, you know, have their own natural consequences, which I think is more a passive way to parent and it doesn't that connection piece is missing with that. I was at Trader Joe's, I talked about this in the book, I was at Trader Joe's and this toddler was just kept hitting her mom in the face, just hitting her mom in the face, and the mom just kept saying, "Don't do that, that's not nice, don't hurt mommy," but there was no limits, there was no boundaries, no consequence, and the toddler was just ruling the world. I thought, this is what she acts like in Trader Joe's, what is she acting like at home, or what's it, you know, and my book kind of meets people in the middle where it's not necessarily punitive, it's not done to out of, you know, fear, so the child fears you. It's done through respect, and it's done to honor them and give them a voice, and also do it in a more playful way. But there also is a healthy set of limits and boundaries that need to be set so they also learn, you know, that there's consequences to their actions— not their emotions, but their actions.

This is touching on even something that I see people struggling in their romantic relationship, which is because we grew up in those households that were punitive, that our needs weren't heard or they were dismissed um, or thrown back at us. Now today, even in romantic relationships, we struggle to hold boundaries. So then we tolerate and tolerate and tolerate until we grow resentful, until we lash out, until we, you know, up and leave, rather than how is this kind of healthy balance in the middle of coming together, of having limits, of expressing needs, of playing together as well. Um, it's really interesting to kind of broaden that, but it is. Greg and I actually talk about this a lot in terms of our own parenting and how, you know, I, I really do agree with you, Kim, is that we have swung too far, and we've swung so far because we're afraid. And as a result, then our children are losing the structure and our value system, right?

Exactly.

And that's tricky.

Yeah, it's very tricky. And like you said, I know you've spoken about this, especially on social media and on your podcast and things like that in the past, of having that playfulness even in a relationship. And I think, like I said, going back to those adults not thinking it's appropriate, but It doesn't, like I said, have to look like you dressing up in a costume or sitting on the floor and playing with, with, you know, maybe dress up in a costume. Yeah, maybe you do. Maybe that's fun. That's okay. That could be fun. Um, but it's, but it's about that playfulness nature. I know you've talked about this with even your husband, like I said, of, you know, maybe it means going to the beach for the day. Maybe it means going to a concert. Maybe it means going to a, like, a dance club. Like, whatever it is, whatever it means for your relationship, you know, to have that as, as two adults too, and connecting through play really as adults also. Like, it should, it should be something that should connect you in a lighthearted way because we deal with so much stuff on a regular basis when it comes to paying the bills, paying our mortgage, you know, conflict relationship issues in our own marriage or, you know, partnerships, raising our kids. There's so many life stressors, you know, and the mental load is just the to-do list. It's just, you know, it's constant and it's, it's overwhelming. But to have that type of relationship where you can pause on that for even a moment or an evening and play, whatever that looks like in your relationship, it just kind of brings you back to that, that baseline again, you know what I mean?

When I think of when children play in front of adults, it's because they feel safe. They're secure. And then when I think about two partners as adults meeting each other in their long-term relationships, when you can play together, you're creating safety, or you feel safe, or kind of like it's, um, a, um, a self reinforcing cycle of I play with you and I feel safe, I feel safe, and then I get to play with you. And that play, Dr. Nicole McNichols, a few episodes back, talked about wrestling with her husband as one example. And then I remember a couple that I coached inside my online program, one of our monthly coaching calls, we would focus on what are the ways they can play. And so they would have a chessboard out that someone, person would make a move as they entered the room. Or they would— what else would they do? They would have Nerf guns and like, you know, play around when the kids were busy doing something else. I love that. There are times with Greg where I'll hide on him and like surprise him and give him like the shock, that surprise. But there's just all these moments of how do we laugh? How do we connect? How do we, you know, not just take things so seriously all the time? And I think about even in our relationships how, you know, we put the kids to bed and we're just like, okay, please can we just put the show on? And we can just numb out. And yes, sometimes you need to do that, and that feels good. And then other times, when you think about the energy you get from playing, you're actually going to feel better afterwards. Like, that— and that, I think, is so important for people to hold on to.

Oh, absolutely. And I talk about that all the time, about how play is a little bit like self-care, or about going to the gym. I'll speak for myself. I'm not— I, I— it just sometimes going to the gym just sounds so daunting to me, you know, to get ready to go to exert all the energy to lift weights, whatever the case may be, to go on a, you know, long walk or a run. It sounds exhausting, and I'm already exhausted. I don't have time. Like I said, my to-do list is just, you know, a million things a day. And but then when I go to the gym, I have more energy. I have, you know, I can fit it in. Like, it does fit in my schedule if you prioritize it. And that's the thing about if you prioritize play and you value it, it actually will give you more energy once you actually play. Like, it will, you know, again, heal your nervous system and it goes— and the other thing I wanted to just mention and just to reiterate is it does come back down to safety and trust. If you have that foundation of safety and trust in your relationship, it's the first thing we learn as a play therapist. You have to alert— the child has to feel safe with you before they're going to let down their inhibitions to be able to play with you. And that's the same thing in a spousal or, you know, partner relationship, is that safety and trust does need to be there. You have to feel emotionally safe with that person before you can let guard down and say, okay, I'm going to be vulnerable with you and, and play with you. And so it really does come back to that.

It's—

you, you hit the nail on the head. So yeah, I love that.

I love that. Oh, I think that's so important. Okay, for our people listening, they're going to grab your book, and pre-orders mean everything. So your book is coming out on May 5th. The cool thing I like to remind people who are not in the book world, who don't necessarily know this, is that when you pre-order a book It signals to a book house that people want your book, and so they're going to send out more of your book, which is so important. It's the best way to support an author. But also too, sometimes you get it a little bit early, lands on your doorstep early. I don't know if mine came early for you, but it always shows up a little— maybe not always, but it always— it can show up early, which is always exciting about a book. But I think what, what I want people to get from your book, Kim, is just this ability to tap into play with lots of different ideas in it so all right there as a resource for them to turn to.

Yes, I hope so. It's going to be sold wherever books are sold. I'm very excited. It's coming out the Tuesday before Mother's Day, so it's a great gift to give yourself for Mother's Day. It's a great gift to give to someone else who is raising children. Again, any parent that's raising children, you know, it's, it's just— hopefully it's a great gift that's going to be a great resource for parents worldwide.

I hope I'm going to put all the links in the show notes. Thank you so much, Dr. Kim, for being here and for sharing what play means to us as adults, but also to our parenting journey. So thank you.

Thank you, Dr. Tracy Dalgleish.