Interview with Alain Hunkins

Welcome to One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters Most with your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the breakthrough Success coach and your powerful presence mentor. Welcome to One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters Most. I'm your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the exponen, Success Coach and president of Dynamic Leader Incorporated. Today we're going to be talking about the facilitative mindset. And as with all of our leadership topics, anything you learn about running an organization or a division, it can also be used at home. So think about how you engage. Everything you hear today can be used at home, in the community, at work. Look, high achievers can become high performance leaders. And you're out there. You're listening to this podcast. So that's you. Today we're going to talk about connection, communication and collaboration. My guest has well over two decades in helping leaders at some of the top companies in the country and around the world. We're going to have some fun as we get some golden nuggets here. Please pay attention. Grab your pens and welcome. Elang Hunkins. Welcome.

Thank you so much, Wayne. It's great to be with you here today. Thanks.

It's great to have you. And as, as I'm learning French, I hope I did okay in pronouncing your first name.

You're doing for me. Dabza. Excellent. Well done.

Thank you. You know, you've got a great framework. I really appreciate your book. I actually own that book. It is at my New York City City apartment right now, the Leadership Code. And I'm sure we'll talk about that because your framework is woven throughout it. Before we get going, I like for our audience to get to know you a little bit. So can you, can you talk a little bit about, like, you didn't wake up one day and go, I know what leaders need. I'm gonna jump in and teach them. You, you found your, your way into leadership development. And talk a little bit about, like, where'd you go to school, where'd you grow up? And how did you get yourself into doing what you're doing now?

Sure. Happy to share. So, hello, everyone. Yes. So, you know, no one ever starts off as a kid, like, I'm going to do this kind of stuff. Leadership development, author, speaker. Right. Facilitator, Executive coach. No, of course not. So, but if I look back at the through line in my life, there's definitely been a strand that continues to be woven and it's around a fascination with people, what makes people tick. And I think it has A lot to do with a somewhat unique origin story. So the reason my name is Alain is because my mom is from Belgium and she gave me a very super common French name, which is great, I suppose if you grow up in a French speaking country. Wasn't so easy when I was growing up in Flushing, Queens where I got called all sorts of names. Again, this was the 1970s. We weren't quite as multiculturally hip as we are today. But all which to say is. So what was unique about childhood for me. I mean, growing up in Queens is not unique. Thousands and thousands of kids grew up there. Being raised by a single mom is also not particularly unique. However, one thing you should know about my mom, if you know your history, my mom is born in Belgium in 1935 and her parents were Polish Jews. So if you know your World War II history, my mother was a Jewish person living in a not good time to be a Jew in Europe. And so basically she was hidden at the age of seven when the Nazis invaded Belgium. She was a hidden child and she spent three and a half years in hiding and was amazingly reunited with her mother who was actually liberated from a concentration camp at the end of the war. The rest of the family was killed. So I share all that because it was a very unique household growing up. And if you think about leadership, such a big part of what leaders do is they create the culture in which the rest of us. It's the fish tank in which we swim, right? Leaders have such a hand in creating culture. And for me, the culture in my home, my little two bedroom apartment, Flushing, with my mother, my grandmother, my brother, was so different than it was at friends houses and so different than it was at school. I think early on I was trying to figure out what was the disconnect. I had this dissonance and I had to figure out why and. And I didn't realize it back then at all, but really it was kind of led me to studying psychology when I was in college and actually went on and have it. I have a Master's in Fine Arts from an acting conservatory, actually trained to be a professional actor. So and that's a big thing of that is like taking apart a character and understanding from the ground up how does someone behave. So I've been fascinated by human behavior since a pretty young age, which has really led me to what I recognized is that so much of what we do as performing artists is very similar to what we do as leaders. If you think about leader, you are always being watched. You're under the Spotlight and people are telling stories about what they think you're saying, whether you're saying it or not. And so for me, that kind of journey of human development, behavior, psychology, performance, all meshed into what ultimately has become this career of helping high achieving people become high achieving leaders. I really wanted to pick that apart and I do it from a very practical way. So Wayne mentioned my book, Cracking the Leadership Code.

Right.

We have these kind of the three secrets to building strong leaders. And the framework is really simple. It's connection, communication and collaboration. And that wasn't me just sitting with a cocktail napkin going, let me come up with three things that start with C and that'll rhyme. Isn't that clever? It actually came out of me working and facilitating with literally thousands of groups over 20 years. And this model emerged because I kept seeing all great leaders have these three things in common and all lousy leaders have these three things in common in that they don't do these things very well and they don't do them consistently. See, what I've come to find is that what separates out, separates out the best leaders from everyone else isn't that they're doing some revolutionary, amazing thing you haven't heard of, it's that they're doing those very simple things, but they're doing them consistently and they've made it a habit and a practice. So I'm really keen on helping you to develop better practices and habits that it can help you be a better leader in all aspects of your life.

That's actually the fourth C is consistency. Right. It's so, yes. So good. You are just singing my song here. I love this, I love this. Taking some notes as you're talking. And I really want to underscore some stuff. First of all, if your mom grew up as a hidden child, it means that she took with her the idea of not being seen. And so you're growing up with that kind of overlay from a generation ago. And I'm saying this because each of our audience members, you know, you've got a background in psychology, My doctorate's in clinical psych. Just understanding how a generation ago, how your parents and or grandparents grew up is going to affect how you grew up and understand the world, how you gave meaning to the world. And so as a hidden child, I'm guessing that you grew up with, you know, you can't, you can't be too loud and what would the neighbors think? And all of the rules that go with that. And so for you to go, well, my, my, my friends like at their houses. They're loud out in the street. We're in Flushing, New York. This is. Of course we're going to be loud, like, and. And you were either pulling yourself away or you were struggling with the meaning of the story as you injected yourself in. In that.

So true. I mean, you. You kind of hit the nail on the head here very much. I mean, I can share some specific examples of things I remember vividly being explicitly told that don't ever share more information than anyone ever asks of you. Right. Because this idea that it will be held against you. So there was this sense of the world is an unsafe place and you can't trust people. And. Yeah, very much. Kind of be quiet and add to that mix. I was the younger brother. I have a brother who's three years older than me, and I saw him being loud and acting out and upsetting my mother, my grandmother so much. So what did I do? I became the polar opposite. I became the quiet, observant, smart one who can kind of put the antenna out, but really didn't spread speak up and was rather shy. And actually, when I was a kid, I was incredibly shy and didn't feel comfortable speaking up because I saw all of this going on around me.

It's so great. I mean, your. Your journey. And I'm. I. I do point this stuff out because I encourage our audience members to really reflect what's been your journey. And for you, you went into psychology. I have to understand myself. You went into performance arts. I have to express myself. It's like the. What a healing journey. How great is that? That is so, so powerful.

Yeah, it was. It was almost like. It's funny because it's almost like it called me. It wasn't something that I consciously chose. It was just. You're right. I needed to express myself. I needed to understand myself and then heal myself, to be able to function in a way that felt it would work. You know, I was amazed. You know, I look at my grandmother who. And, you know, by all accounts now we would have diagnosed her with post traumatic stress disorder. You know, she could go from vacillating to being incredibly quiet to, like, just lashing out in rage and just back and forth, and you never knew what happened. But, I mean, looking at her and seeing how unhappy she was going, you know, the war has been over for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years, and yet it's still living on inside of her. And I realized I didn't want to live that way. And so I wanted to try to understand these principles at a deeper level and then ultimately try to help other people. Because it seems to me that the biggest cages that we create are the ones that are in our own minds.

So powerful that that statement, the biggest cages that we create are in our own minds. It also ties back to something you said where, where I'm going to read it. People tell stories about what they think you're saying, whether you're saying it or not. And it's really like if you think about it for yourself, you give meaning. Each of us gives meaning to our current circumstance, to what's being told to us, to what we read. You know, for some people the, the news is great news and for others it's the worst news in the world. And, and we give meaning to that based on our current understanding. And so, you know, your, your work, our work, since I'm in this world along with you, it's a, it's an abundant space to be in because, you know, there are so many people that could actually use kind of this knowledge. So the work is about getting clarity for what were the stories and can we maybe tweak those stories? I want to talk about the, I'm going to call it the, it's the three C's. I know. And, and yet you added consistency and it's really, that's a fourth C. Can you consistently be connecting with people? Can you, can you consistently communicate and can you consistently collaborate? I want to say one thing before turning it back over to you. I was working with a, with a company and one of the leaders, I was talking with him about collaboration and he said, well, you know, can we, I'm like, look, you and this other division, you're doing similar things. You could really, you could really exponentially move to a greater level if the two of you were able to collaborate. And he was dead serious when he said, I'm completely willing to collaborate if they would do things our way. We would absolutely have a beautiful collaboration. Ouch.

Yeah.

And I'm willing to collaborate if they would do, do it our way.

Yeah. Yeah. And to me, what I love about that story is the blind to its own blindness. Not even aware of how, how self focused and non collaborative that statement actually probably was.

Right. I just like, it was a really tough one for me either to not laugh or to not bang my head on the, on the file cabinet.

Yeah, it was a toug.

So let's talk about your three Cs because what you're doing, I mean you've been in some major companies. I didn't list them.

Yeah, yeah.

I invite our audience. Think about a major company. Elon's been working in those companies. Like, yeah, he's doing it.

So, yeah, yeah. I've been with lots, and I've been with lots of different industries, but, yeah, I think it's like 42 or 43 of the Fortune 100 companies at this point. You know, it's. And what's so interesting is whether it's a big company, people say, what. What's the best company to work with? And I say, it's not about the company. It's about the leader in that company and with that team. Because, you know, you can have a company of 50,000 people, and there are great leaders and there are mediocre and there are horrible leaders, and there are teams that love their work and are finding meaning and purpose and doing all kinds of amazing things, and there are other people who are just looking to get through the day and leave in the same company. So it isn't the company. It's all about the leader.

Yeah. And if the leader is not communicating their values, you as an employee or a team member, you don't know whether you can line up behind that leader, that you don't know what that person stands for. And again, that's a message for being at home as well. What do you stand for? So, yeah, yeah, let's talk about that.

Yeah. So I guess if we look at the three Cs, connection, communication and collaboration. Starting with connection. And I. I oftentimes put this model into three concentric circles, and the heart of it is connection. Because. And I tell leaders and coach leaders about this every day, all day, is that I don't care what industry you are in. I don't care if you work in finance or pharmaceuticals or manufacturing. We're all in the human being business. And I think that's such an important lesson for so many leaders to get, because there are a lot. And I'm sure you all know this, folks, you know, there are people who only got themselves into formal leadership, managerial supervisory roles in companies because that's where the money is, that's where the promotion is, that is where the status is. And unfortunately, there are too many people who just don't like other people. They just don't really like them a whole lot. And if you're that person, get yourself out of leadership roles. Because at its core, leadership is a relationship between two people. A person who would choose and desires to lead and a person who chooses to follow and I use that word really consciously. Choose. Because we live in an age where this isn't about just showing up to work like you're on the assembly line. Back in the industrial age, Henry Ford could get away with saying something like, why is it every time I want a pair of hands, they come with a brain attached? Which, by the way, Henry Ford did say that about his assembly line workers because the work was static and constant. And if you were on the Ford assembly line building the Model T car, they did not change that assembly line for 23 years. So what you did last week is the same thing you're going to do next week, next month, next decade. You and I don't live in that world. Like our world is constantly changing. We don't, we can't afford to have employees who can't think for themselves. So the real challenge in connection is how do we get followers who willingly, willingly come along on the journey with us to co create some kind of shared purpose. And we have to be human first, because that's who people connect to. So the research all points to, and my book has got 30 pages of footnotes, I won't bore you with all them right now, but the number one thing that makes people more engaged and more productive at work is do they feel valued and cared for by their immediate supervisor. And if you just think about that for a second, you can take that in the work context or anywhere else. That is a very soft and fuzzy metric, you know, And I think one of the challenges in the business world, we tend to love numbers because they give us the sense of neatness and certainty. Because, you know, every single time you show up to a meeting, six is always one more than five and one less than seven. Whereas people, and how people operate, it's much harder to wrap our hands around and understand fully. So numbers give us the sense of control. Whereas I'm sure you've had the experience where let's say you're with your husband or wife, spouse, significant other, and you can tell something's wrong. You can just tell, you can feel it in the air, right? There's something going on. You feel this lack of connection, this disconnection. And how do you respond sometimes? Do you avoid it? I know there's times that I have, right. I avoid it because I don't want to open something up because I, you know, or maybe I feel guilty or something. So whatever it is, there's something in the way. And so as leaders, this first step is how do I make people feel connected? Because we know when people feel connected to they're going to give so much more of themselves than they would otherwise. So that's the first C. And then we get into communication. You know, it's so interesting because when I ask leaders, you know, what are the biggest challenges you have at work? Communication is almost always number one, if not always in the top three, right? Communication. Communication. And the funny thing about communication, Communication is communication is not the goal, right? We never communicate for communication's sake. The goal of communication is to create shared, mutual understanding that you see things the same way I see them, which, frankly, we can never do a hundred percent, because no one else is in our heads. Like only we live in our own heads. And why understanding is so important is because that's the platform for us to make decisions and take action, which leads to results. And so I like to tell leaders that assume that the default setting for human relationships is misunderstanding. Don't assume understanding, assume misunderstanding. And then insert some tools to make sure that you are confirming you're walking away on relatively the same page. It's so important, and there's so many simple things that we can do. And what great leaders do is they incorporate these things and they do them consistently. Like we said before, it's that fourth circumstance. And the third C is collaboration. The fact is, as leaders, I talked about it before, you know, we create the culture. It's the fishbowl in which we all swim. And what great leaders do is they design that fishbowl with intention. They know that certain things will get the best out of people and certain things won't. Whereas mediocre and bad leaders, they think, what fishbowl, what this is, this is just how I do stuff. They are unintentional. They design things by accident and. And they reap the rewards. And it turns out that. And this comes from a lot of different pieces, but really, for people to perform at their best, they have to have certain needs satisfied. People have a need for safety, both psychic and psychological safety, as well as physical safety and emotional safety. People have a need for energy. They want to be in environments where they're energized. People have a need for ownership, a sense that they have autonomy over their own work. And people have a need for meaning and purpose that what they do matters, and they're contributing to something greater than themselves. And so what great leaders do is they harness the power of safety and energy and ownership and purpose, and they find ways to incorporate that every day so that people's gas tanks get filled up. Right? So, I mean, you know, people, I have had leaders say, well, I don't. I think my employees, they know what they're here to do.

Right.

And that's what we pay them for. I like to use an analogy. I say it's kind of like saying, you know, hon, I know we got married 25 years ago, and I said I love you on our wedding day. I know I haven't said it since, but nothing's changed. You can't, you won't get away with that. In relationship, we need to repeat these principles and create environments where people can thrive on a regular basis. That is the work of leadership. That is what we're there to do. It may seem very different from what you're used to doing, but that is the core work of what leaders need to do. Connection, communication, and collaboration on a consistent basis.

Beautiful. And over using your example, over the course of 25 years of a relationship, for example, times have changed and. Right. And so proclaiming your value and the value of the other person to you is within a given context. And, and I say that for people at home, like, make sure it's heard the right way. And also for those leaders and organizations where, you know, where you said, hey, we're going to provide the best. Like, one of our values is to show up and be our best. Awesome. What does that mean in today's context? It's different what it. Than what it meant in the context of the world 10 years ago, 20 years ago. I mean, what changes we've seen in the last 10 to 20 years? And so proclaiming values and living them and demonstrating them is so different than, oh, yeah, our, our vision statement, our mission statement's on the wall. People know. People know. It's on. It's on. They could just read it. I, I'm also struck, you know, I have a. Having consulted with some major organizations. One of the, One of the key cries from a. The president of a major organization was, why can't they just do their effing jobs? And he said the full on word. And, and I'm like, well, have you told them what the jobs are? Well, they should know and their supervisor should be telling them. Have you told them why their jobs matter? Well, you know, we're running this organization. Of course they matter. And it's kind of like, of course you matter to me. I'm still married to you. You know, it's, it's. I'm loving every piece about what you're saying because it is so powerful. Communication is about creating shared, mutual understanding. Do we understand that today? Do we Understand like we understood it at a certain point. Our own understanding about the world has grown. Do we understand it today? And I think that consistent consistency here means checking in, right? It's not, it's not like, well, I'm going to say the same thing I've said, you know, for 10 years. Check in, make sure that, that, that understanding really is mutual within the current context of the organization and the, and the business growth.

You are listening to one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most with your host, Dr. Wayne Purnell. You know, you are bigger than the life you are leading. It really is time to attend to that thing you've wanted to do or have, but you've been putting off. It's time to step into that dream. You've parked for someday. It's time to claim true well being both personally and professionally without giving up the success that got you here. It's time to check out Dr. Purnell's signature small group retreat, the Exponential Success Summit. Explore exponential success summit.com Seats are extremely limited as this is a very special small group event. Www.exponentialsuccesssummit.com yeah, you've touched on so many good things here, Wayne. I think particularly the idea for leaders to talk about, you know, I am leading in 20, 24 and beyond, right? And so I can't go to the. Wait. Back in my day, it's like, it's not your day. I mean, I, I consult with CEOs all the time and I've had them. And what's interesting is they're actually starting to come along because these changes that have been afoot for the last 10 years really, really cracked wide open with the pandemic. You know, I mean, it really shifted things and accelerated the change. And so because of that, now leaders are recognizing just supply and demand. Look, all of my older employees are retiring. Who's the next generation of leaders of employees? What are we doing to develop our succession planning and bench strength and what does it mean and realizing that, you know, what if you know, the majority of your workforce are millennials and Gen Z and they have a very different value equation and they're living in a world where they grew up, where they have access to LinkedIn and Glassdoor and indeed, and they can find out where the grass is greener because I say so. They're like, I'll quit. I'll move back in with my parents and live there before I do this. The world has shifted and leaders have to realize we have to lead today's followers not Us and the world. When I certainly came into the workforce in the late 80s and early 90s, over the last millennium, it was very different. It was kind of keep your nose clean, keep your head down, do what you're told, pay your dues. And again, we were just coming out of the end of the age of people, stayed with one company and that legacy was still there. You stayed with one company, you're loyal and you'll probably get a pension. Like, hello, what world is that? No one lives in that world anymore. And so we have, as Daniel Pink describes it, this free agent nation. And so how do you make yourself that employer of choice? What is the value propos position that wants that you get someone to actually contribute their discretionary effort to you every day? Because the fact is everyone is loaning you their talents, their paycheck is just a given. It's like whether or not they're actually contributing, it's up to them. And they can choose to phone it in and do the minimum amount possible, or they can really lean in. And that all goes back to connection, communication, collaboration. How do they feel? Because the kind of work that is being demanded of today's knowledge workers is, is they need to feel that they can jump in with two feet and get excited about what they're doing in order to perform their best.

It's so great. You know, one of the things that I have put out there is that the pandemic did us a favor in helping us really define what we value as individuals. Right. We were shut in, which means we were face to face with a lot of things we did. I didn't want, I don't want to see these four walls forever. I want to be able to go out. I want to be able to do this. I want this and this and this. I know what I don't want. I'm starting to value or know what I do want. And it has really tipped the work culture on edge on its end. And you know, back when the 911 event happened, I was working in a, in an organization where the management, they were still all about butts in seats. No, you can't go home. That was in a different part of our country. You can't know. Why would you want to go home? It's like, well, because. Yeah, because I need to. How's that? Yeah. And, and so that was, I mean, there was really no recognition that we're in a different place. So, I mean, major events have given us the opportunity, if we take it to, to really grow and expand. I want to ask you a question. It's based on something that I've seen and you're out there in various companies and I'm just wondering if you're seeing the same thing. It's not actually that the workforce is getting older and retiring. We're seeing actually the graying of the workforce. And really smart companies, to my mind, the really smart ones are using the older and almost aging out, but not aging out employees as, as mentors and bridging gaps to the, the younger workforce so that there is a kind of a legacy that's being built without it being. Well, we've always done it this way. It's more like this is the way, like this is the culture, this is the, the way it works. And you know, let me teach you my way and you do your own, like build it yourself.

Yeah, I would say the smart companies are definitely doing that. Right. Because they recognize that, you know, what are we going to do if there's a potential brain drain leaving the building very soon? Yeah, they are definitely starting to do that. And one of the things, I mean, you know, there's been so many, so many back and forth pieces and opinions around, you know, the ups and downs of remote work and. But I think a fairly unanimous theory that's out now is that the thing that remote work hurts the most is mentoring of junior workers. Right. So it's hard and it's also very hard to onboard people into culture if they're doing it completely remotely. Now granted, I've worked with a lot of companies and written, I write articles for Forbes, I've written there's ways to do it. It's just a lot harder. It's a lot harder. And so. But I think going back to your point, Wayne, I think really, ultimately, yeah, smart companies are recognizing the opportunities for mentorship. And also when you have these younger workers who are digital natives, they're very good at accessing technology for knowledge management. Right. There's so many better tools to be able to do that. And when you think about for, and I share this when I'm coaching and training leaders, if you want to go and figure out how to fix something in your house, where's the first place you go? And everybody says YouTube, right? Because there's a, there's someone, someone has created a tutorial for that. So we're recognizing there are lots, there are so many better ways to capture information and then use it moving forward. And so smart companies are creating cultures where they're able to kind of break down that divide between older and younger and realizing we're all here together. How can we support each other at wherever stage we are in our career?

It's so great, you know, it's so great to have the bridges being addressed. Here's the gap, like gap analysis. And then, well, what's the bridge that. That really allows for the connection of. Of that gap? This is. This is awesome. What. It's amazing, truly. What have we not talked about? Where do you want to go next in our. In our conversation?

Wow. Lots of options now.

I know. I want. I want to make sure that you get out. What? You want to get out?

Yeah. Well, thanks. You know, I'd say, you know, going back to this idea of that fourth c. Consistency, the thing I. Because I have a lot of leaders say, so if there's only one thing I could do, because everyone's like, everyone's busy, I'm busy, like, so if I can only do one thing, what's the one. What's the one thing I can do? What's the one thing? I mean, it's not quite that simple, but if it was that simple, the thing I would encourage all of us to do, and I encourage myself because it's not always easy for me either, is to actively seek feedback from people, right? Because, you know, you're probably familiar. Familiar with this, as a psychologist, this idea of what they call the fundamental attribution error, right? This idea that. What that basically means in simple terms is that we judge ourselves by our intentions, but other people judge us by our results, by our behavior, right? And a classic example that is someone cuts you off in traffic on the highway, you know, you can curse at them like, jerk, whatever. Whatever words you want to use, right? Because they're being like. You judge them by that. But if you were ever the one cutting somebody off in traffic, what would you say? Oh, you don't understand. I'm late, I have to get here. You come up with a wonderful story to justify your intentions. That story may work for you, but it doesn't work for anybody else. So I share all that because you probably think you're doing a pretty good job at leading. And the research has shown Only about 23% of followers in the US believe their leaders lead well. So if you're in the middle of the bell curve, you're not doing as well as you think you are, right? So it turns out that leading, all the stuff we've talked about, connection, communication, collaboration, it's hard. This is hard stuff, you know, which is why, like, breaking it down and Working with executives one on one, like to really like, take a look at what are your beliefs, how are you showing up. But a big piece to this is getting feedback and then having the, the willingness, the courage to put your ego aside and hear what people are saying and respond with, thank you for the feedback. What could I be doing differently? And then to go ahead and operationalize that feedback and start to practice that and then ask them, are you seeing a difference? This idea of asking for feedback and then shifting is a game changer. So I would say it's hard and you want to make sure that you're asking people. And look, we all tend to go think back to when you're in the seventh grade cafeteria. You sit, you come in, who do you look for? Your friends, right? You go to your friends, the ones that you are, you know, the real challenge is to go and ask feedback for the people that don't make you comfortable, right? If ask feedback from the people that you're not sure and then don't defend yourself and justify is to, you know, and get more than one data point, right? Don't just go, n equals one, get 10 people's feedback. And I'll just share a personal story that I got is when I, you know, had about the seventh or eighth person say, now again, I'm from New York and I, you can hear, I can speak fast. When I had, the seventh or eighth person said, you know what, when you get kind of focused, you steamroll over other people and their ideas and it makes you come across as arrogant and cocky or some variation of those words. When the eighth person said to me, I had to stop saying, well, they don't. It's like eight versus one who has the data in their favor. And so getting feedback from other people is such, such a gift that you can give yourself. And it also, it shows people you have a level of maturity that you're actually willing to ask for it. Because the fact is, whatever that feedback is, they've been thinking about it. They already think that already. So why wouldn't you ask for that? So take a little courage and ask people for feedback. And then I think that's, that's huge.

And the point, they already think it already. It's not like you're going to plant some idea, love feedback about what you think of me. And they'll go, you know, let me, let me spend two days thinking they're already thinking it. And, and if you're willing to hear it, it's amazing. And ultimately you get to decide what to do with it. Right. You get to decide. No, no, you know what? That is the way I want to be. It's like, I've got a message, I am going to steamroller over people. Or oh, it makes me look cocky and it actually stops my message from getting out there. Like they can't hear it if I'm that way. Huh. What can I do to change that? And, and then I love part two of that, which is, you know, I've been really working on this. Have you noticed a change? Have you noticed a difference? Is it working? And it's, that's really, really important. I personally have done that with my family and it's, it's really eye opening. All my kids are adults at this point and, and it's great because communication matters so much to me and especially in my most precious organization, which is my family. Right. And so to, to seek feedback and go, look, you know, I'm, I'm. When I'm head down in a project, it looks like this to me.

Yeah.

How's it looking to you? And it's like, well, we need you a little more present. We need you to, you know, when you do this, it actually looks like that. Like, well, that's not my intention. It's like, but that's the way it looks and we're interpreting it.

Yeah. And here's the last piece on this I want to share is that I think in so many organizations, families included, we have this tacit agreement which is, look, I'm not going to call you on your stuff and you don't call me on my stuff, and we'll just kind of go along and kind of bump along in the road of mediocrity because it takes, it's too scary to actually call each other out. But if we do it from a place of support and dare I say love, if you know that you have someone's best interest in mind, it is such a game changer. But you know, you can go decades and lifetimes with letting people go and giving them a pass and they give you a pass, and then no one's really satisfied with where you're at in the relationship.

So. Good. You know, I call that tolerance. Right. What are we tolerating in our lives that we actually, we actually, if we had a conversation or actually took a small step, we wouldn't be tolerating it anymore. And you know, it's not like, oh, I have to leave this person because they're being a certain way. It's. I have to be brave enough to have a conversation with this person and recognize that I can actually improve the relationship, whether that's at home, whether that's in the workplace, it's. It is magical when you have that fifth C. Courage.

Right.

But it's like, I love a framework that keeps expanding. It's so good.

Exactly.

That's awesome. I. I had three Cs of leadership, which, which was. Clarity, communication and. And curiosity.

Yeah. Again, lots of good Cs out there.

Yeah, good ones. So this is amazing. I. It is so aligned with the work that I've been leaning into the, you know, and to hear you and what you're doing out there and how you're doing, it's just. It's really, really powerful. As I said, I have the leadership Code. It's on my. It's on my coffee table in my New York apartment. A book worth reading. So please, for audience members, go get it. Leadership. The. It's called Cracking the Leadership Code. And what else do you want to say? Is there. Are there ways that people can reach you? Do you want to be connected on LinkedIn?

The answer is yes, yes, and yes. Certainly. Feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. You can send me a direct connection request. And also, if you have any other questions about the work that I do, if I can be of service to you in any way, basically go to alainhunkins.com it's a L-A I N H U N K-I-N S.com or email me atlantkins.com and yeah, happy to be of service. This is like helping people to become better leaders in all aspects of their lives. It's what gets me out of bed every day, jumping up and down. So I'm happy to share.

Isn't that great? Like, being of service and it's just sort of like, how am I going to serve today? So good. So good. Alana Hamkins, thank you so much for being here. A L A I n H u N k I n s.com that'll be in the show. Notes. Beautiful. Great book. Great conversation. Thank you.

Thank you, Wayne. It's my pleasure. Really. Thank you.

Really great. All right, well, my guest, Elon Hunkins. And this is one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most. I'm your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the Exponential Success coach and the president of Dynamic Leader Incorporated. I am hoping you like this episode and I'm hoping that if you did like it, that you will actually like it and share it and comment. It's what helps others get to know us. And. And so your involvement here as an audience member makes all the difference as well. Thanks very much and we will see you here next week. Thank you for listening to one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most with your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the breakthrough success coach and your powerful presence mental.