Interview with Bill Dunnion

You're listening to One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters Most with outfluencer Dr. Wayne Purnell. Welcome to One Sharp Sword cutting through to what Matters Most. I'm your host, coach and guide on this journey to Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell. With me today I have Bill Dunyan. He is the Chief Information security Officer. I'm looking down at my notes to make sure I get it right. The CISO at a company called Mitel, he's, he's got an amazing background, which is why I wanted to bring him here. I bring all kinds of leaders onto this program and the leadership journey is kind of special. And Bill's got a special story to tell. You don't just wake up one day and go, I'm going to be the chief Information security officer. Because when you started, you weren't, that wasn't even a thing, was it? So Bill, welcome to the program. Tell me, yeah, tell me a little about what it is like Chief Information Security Officer. Talk to me, Bill Dunn.

Dr. P. I like that. I think that you may have a future in, in rapping and hip hop if you so choose.

There you go.

Yeah. So Chief Information Security Officer. It sounds big and mighty and really once you're in it, it's kind of scary. Scary and daunting because I mean this is in the world, in today's world of cybercrime. Yeah, they, they don't tend to take holidays when weekends. So everybody's always under attack and there's always pressure.

But yeah, it's great way to start there, Bill. Like everybody's under attack. It's like, okay, fear and mayhem and, and, and that is the truth though. Like we, without you doing what you do, we would all be very aware that we're under attack. And because you do what you do, it's sort of behind the scenes and you're, you're quarantining anything that comes up. Right.

Fair enough. Yeah, it's, I, I, I picked up along the way an explanation about a good referee. And a good referee is somebody you don't notice on the court or the ice. And, and I think maybe the same thing applies in the world of security. If, uh, if you don't know we're there, then we're doing our, we're doing nice. But yeah, it's, but you're right, it's, there's, on one hand, the stress comes from the fear of the headlines and there's, and, and you can't really wake up or go, go, go. A week without Seeing a new headline of this person was attacked or this company was, uh, was breached and uh, or getting the letter in the mail saying your information has now been shared with uh, a lot of people that you didn't want it shared with. So. Yeah, but uh, it does make for a lot of interesting days. And yeah, at this point I wouldn't trade it for the world. But yeah, the journey here was definitely not a straight line as I think it rarely is.

It rarely is. So let's talk about that a little bit because you're based in Ottawa right now, which is, which is kind of cold and blustery at the time of this recording. You started in product management and delivery and then moved into operations. But let's back up even before that. What, you know, you're, you're a kid in college or deciding to go to college and you go, let me go into ops and, and management, delivery. And like, how did you, how did you even do that? You know, because.

Yeah, actually it just made me think of a story. You're, you're. Yeah, it's. I'm glad that I can still remember it, but my hair and all. But yeah, so it's. I was always good in maths and sciences and so I remember talking to my parents, friends at the time and they say, oh, you're good at maths and sciences? Well, you want to be an engineer. And my. I actually remember the first time I heard that question. I said, yeah, I like trains, but what does that have to do with math and science? So I had to learn what this thing engineering was all about. And so I ended up picking that and I was actually in the first, the engineering class where having a personal computer was mandatory. So I was the first class where that computer was made mandatory. Yes, I'm showing my age. And at first I thought I knew they were up and coming and it would be all the rage. So I was thinking, ah, maybe electrical engine engineering. I'd like to learn how to build, build computers. I ended up going to Queen's University and the first year of engineering was generic. And that was the best accident that that's ever, I've ever has ever beheld me because I quickly learned that in the world of university engineering, computers and electrical engineering was all math and modeling. And although I was good at math, they take math to a whole new level and I didn't like it quite so much. So yeah, we went a different route. And then first job out of school, got a taste of a couple of different types of roles and I Realized that I like working with people more than I like working with computers. So that started me down the product management and product marketing route. And yeah, the technical background and aptitude allowed me to solve problems and I thought differently than maybe others in those roles. And I found I had a knack for working with people and translating technical topics into easy to understand language. So. And that's served me well all the way through.

That's amazing. That's amazing. The. You and I spoke ahead of this call and one of the things you said was that the cso, when you get into Chief Security officer, that it's a leadership role and it's not a technical role. And I really love that. I love the, the idea that CSO is people based. It's also sales based and customer service is the common thread. And I, that just struck me as like, well, we think of Chief Security Officer as, you know, somebody high in a tower or in their very sterile office, you know, focused on their computers and you're, you really are focused on people. Can you just kind of describe. I don't know if we've jumped from where you were to the mitel days at this point, but I, I just like describe that like, how did you, how did you go? You know what? I am better with people than I am with computers. Computers are great. I can translate them and dot, dot, dot.

Right, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, yeah. And yeah, it's like if, if in my journey, I've done sales, I've done marketing, I've done product management, I've done operations, I've done delivery. So yeah, yeah. On one hand I'm a jack of all trades and a master of none, but on the other side, I've also seen the business from every single possible angle. I haven't been in finance or accounting yet and I probably never will, but I've had P L responsibilities. Right. So yeah, I get that financial flavor. And I think that the origins of, of the ciso, of the head of security, definitely was a technical minded individual. It was somebody that knew the security architecture and the IT infrastructure better than anyone else. They could architect things in their mind on the fly. They knew what they wanted to do to protect things. And that's also, I think, been one of the, I think one of the largest traits that have helped to keep this role or function more in the off to the side, in the realm of the unknown. Because to me, every IT and every security project is going to help the bottom line. It's either going to reduce risk, reduce cost, make things more efficient or support the business on the sales side.

Right.

So IT and security projects help to make things easier, help to make them better, help them to make them safer. And if you aren't able to translate the technology into the, the business benefit or the business value, then you often get left out of the, the conversation at, with the board or with the CEO and the executive leadership team. Because the conversations there are all around profit and loss, right? They're all around ebitda, they're all around margins, and they're all around time to market. And, and if you can't support, in my mind, if you can't support those goals and objectives, or if you can't effectively communicate how you support those goals and objectives, then, then the CEO doesn't have the 30 seconds for you that you need in order to get the budget or the funding or the, or the approval to move forward in, in whatever instance. So, yeah, so I think that even though I've taken a rather winding road, secured this route, I've picked up knowledge and experience along the way that, that, that really helps to benefit the role of security at mitel, I would say.

So, you know, you touched on something actually, you emphasized it. I'm going to simplify it, which is, can you answer the WIFM right away? Right. That's the. What's in it for me? Right? And that's, that's almost like a parenting tip in some ways too. It's like, look, you know, kids want and they want and they want. And the, you know, chief executive officers, the, the, the executive team, they want to know that there's a benefit when you come with an ask. And, and so you've got to not just go, hey, I have an idea. It's like, no, I've thought this idea through. Here's why we need it. Here's what it takes. I think that's, I think that's amazing.

You,

in one of our, in, in one of our conversations earlier, you had said that success is easy, project success is easy. And that's a pretty bold statement. So I'd love for you to, to, to kind of dive in there a little bit. Like, project success is easy really? Because, like how many of them fail and how many of them are successful and what makes it easy for you?

Oh, geez, yeah, I'm hearing you say that. I go, wow, did I really say that? And I think what, I think what I meant is, yes. I mean, on the surface in projects, the project management, the organization, that, that part is, is really straightforward and I actually Did a survey on my own in support of a talk that I gave around the. The success or failure of IT projects and, and the SATs. The research that I did actually show that, that only depending on how you count them, 17% of and so off

the top is that by the way, I just wanted to emphasize that, that by the way actually matches the statistic I've seen.

Okay. And success usually means, I think for this criteria for these studies is you set your budget, you set your timelines and none of that changes and you've got a successful delivery within the original time set. And so if for these purposes of those stats, I think that as soon as you've got a delay or as soon as you've got a cost overrun, then that's a negative hit on success. And so what I mean by that, I think the harder part is how do you get approval for the project in the first place? And can you organize it? Can you communicate the value to get the budget and the buy in and the resources in order to deliver it? And then you also have to look at it from a. The other information that I got back when I was doing the research was the more complex the project Captain Obvious, maybe the more complex the project the more likely it is to fail. And I think sometimes your eyes are bigger than your plate. Right. You want to do everything right and you want to do everything all at once. But I think it's more beneficial for the project team. The state of the project is to divide that up into smaller bite sized pieces. If you look at the R and D and the project management side, that's kind of why they started with waterfall and big projects and then they've slowly moved and moved and moved and now it's called Igile so that they can do small tasks, small deliverables, modify or adapt on the fly and, and keep going. And so defining the projects in, in stages that are bite size and, and put them together in sort of logical steps so that you can show value very quickly, I think that's the most important piece.

Right.

If you've got a project that may take three years, that's fine. But what are you going to show me in six months or what are you going to be able to show me in three months? And the more you can do that then the more support you'll gain for the project because you've got visible evidence of benefits along the way.

That's great what you said. I jaw. Is that what you.

Agile.

Oh, agile. I misheard you. Okay, sorry. Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's great.

My Canadian accent.

It's my Californian ears. It's all good. Yes. So agility is everything, right? Your, your ability to, to pivot and move quickly. When I, when I work with organizations and they're facing massive projects, you, you said divide into bite sized pieces. I call it chunking it down. Right. So this chunk goes to this team, this chunk goes to this team you're managing. When each chunk and then per chunk there are bite sized pieces. Right. So each, each team goes, oh, we've got this and we'll, we'll do that. And hopefully if you've managed it correctly, the timing is that there's that integration or the dependencies that are one team is counting on have been fulfilled so that the second team can come in. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. Engineering reference. And I love this picture. I build it into talks every once in a while. Because the way you build a bridge traditionally is, is you start with the foundations on, on either side of the river and then you hope that the bridge lines up once it comes to the middle. Right, right. But, yeah, exactly, but so the trick is making sure that everybody's coordinated enough so that when you do the, when you put the puzzle pieces and the chunks together that they actually meet in the middle.

That's great. Wow. So you've, you've run like within organizations, you've run organizations, you've worked with companies that are startups, you've worked with organizations that have a hundred thousand plus in them. What's been the biggest difference for you in terms of leadership, in terms of team management, in terms of seeing projects through from start to finish?

Oh, wow, that's. Yeah, that's, that's a wonderful question. I think that. Yeah, yeah. So you're right. I've been employee 19 three times in my life, coincidentally. It's. Yeah.

So actually like a bad sci fi film. You know, it's like 19 step up.

Yeah. I keep on forgetting to, to get lottery tickets with 19 in them. But yeah, and then I've also worked for Bell Canada and even mitel has got 5000 employees u worldwide right now. So I've, Yeah, so I've, I've worked on both sides of the coin and the projects themselves are very similar.

Right.

It's in, in both cases you've got internal projects that are needed in order to ultimately win and keep customers. And the biggest difference is scale.

Right.

Even in large companies, I mean everyone has budget pressure, but it's extremely noticeable in small organizations. And the Smaller the organization. There's, there's, like I've said it to others, there's no place to hide. If, if you're in a company of 20 or 30 people, you can't hide behind somebody else or you can't hide in a team. Everybody's contribution is, is evident or their lack of contribution is also evident. Right. And the other thing I think with smaller companies is the broader experience that someone has or is willing to take on is vital for smaller teams. Like there was one. Actually, one of the best projects and experiences that I had was one of these opportunities where I walked in. I was employee 19. I helped them win a large managed service contract for the Canadian government. And I own the pen. I held the pen on the response. So I put the RFP response together. We won in the face of large behemoths like IBM, cgi, Bell, Bell Canada. And then I ran the implementation team and then I transitioned and ran operations. Whereas in a large company, I would own part of the RFP response and that's it. Whereas in a smaller company, you kind of, hey, you look around, who can do this? And oh, I guess I'm doing this. Okay. So you end up needing to be a lot more versatile and you get a lot, in my mind, a larger breadth of opportunity because you can see the process from, from beginning to end. Whereas in the larger company, just for, for scale, size of scale, you end up specializing in one part of the process and you don't necessarily get to see the big picture or, or what the, what the ultimate goal is. Right. So it's like the assembly line. My, my job is putting this bolt onto this screw and then I have to do it a thousand times a day and keep up.

And that's a, it's a really important call out. Actually, the difference between, in a small team, you've got responsibility almost for the entire project, and every team member has responsibility for the entire project working together. And on a larger team, it is, you're responsible for this thing, on this thing, do it again and again. And one of the things that, that I believe is really important. I, in my world, I talk about values, vision and vitality and. Right. So everybody's values need to be aligned. And who is it to say what the values of the company are? The leader, the leadership. Right. And so that needs to be put out there, and then it's put out through the vision. This is where we're heading. And the vitality I talk about is the, the, the way you embody it. Right. So you Said, this is your vision. How are you showing up and are you catching your team members living into that vision, even if it is taking this thing and putting it on that thing. Right. Time and time again. And I think that that's a leadership lesson here, is that maybe it's, it's specifically the bigger the team, the more important that leadership statement of what you're doing matters. Because you said, right, the big, the final outcome is missed very often. So. Right. Keeping that in front of people, I think that's so important. What you're doing affects our end user dramatically. And so your job is really important.

Yeah, exactly. And I, I would even argue that, I think the, the third V was you said vitality. I think how do you envision or embody the value and the vision?

Right.

I'd almost argue that that's probably the most important of the three. Yes, you should have it written down and you should have it communicated so that everybody's standard. But if you don't, if you don't reflect that message in your daily actions, then it doesn't matter what you have written on the board or in the front hobby.

Right.

And Right.

Well, that bill, that's where, that's where trust lives. Right. I mean, yeah, you could say you believe in one thing, but if you're showing up and doing something different, and I think probably every one of us, you and I and all of our audience members have experienced that in an organization somewhere where the, the leader says, well do it this way, this is the way we do things. And then the leader turns around, does things opposite. It's like now we can't trust them, right.

In this project. Just, just. And you say is that vision there? It's. So it was like a 25, 27 million dollar contract, managed service, multi year managed service contract that we won. And for a small company, as I said, I was employee 19. That was huge. And so even if we were doing something small like writing a policy or a procedure that, by which the, the service was going to be governed, you knew it was a requirement and once you had it done, then it was a checklist towards that 27 million dollar contract. Right. And, and you could see the longevity. And so there was definitely a common purpose and, and who. I've, I've met one person in my life that actually likes writing policies and procedures and I diagram again, again in an instant because that's rare. So even if you don't like it, you know why you're doing it. Right. And so understanding why is, is I Think it's important. Right.

So, yeah, under I. I use the analogy of, you know, you might love your puppy, but there's also stuff to clean up after your puppy, and that's. That's part of puppy ownership. Right. So, you know, if you're going after a $27 million contract and you've won that contract and now you are fulfilling it, some parts are going to be great and other parts are going to be tolerable, tedious. Tolerable. Yeah, all of those things. Can you bring us to the present and describe a day in the life? Right here's the. A day in the life of Bill Dunyan. The. Oh, wow. Right. It's. It's like, I don't think there's a typical day, but, you know, there are certain similarities that happen. You get up, you have your cup of coffee. No. Yeah. Just like. Yeah, what is it at my tell for you?

Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Geez. There's so many ways that this, that, that, that, that this one can go, right? I mean, the whole Covid work from home piece and. Yeah, but still. So let me say the typical day. I think that the hardest part about a typical day is keeping b. Because you can definitely get absorbed. I'll pick on email for just. Because it's easy to pick on. You can get absorbed on your inbox, and all of a sudden the world gets shut out and next thing you know, it's dinner time and you don't know what you've done for the day. So I think the hardest part is getting balance because I need to spend time with the team. There's no shortage of alerts and events that are coming in that the team has to through and, and triage and determine, hey, is this real? And if it's real, what's. What's the risk? How important is it? And often the part that gets put to the side or left to the end and then regrettably delayed ends up being the strategic thinking piece. Right. And because there's always going to be someone yelling with the. On a deadline, and of course you have to take care of the deadlines. I had a boss once that took a. A thought away from a conference or a workshop that she was on. And so back in the days when we had our offices and everyone went in, she had this big fish on at. On her desk. And I go, all right, so what's the, what's the story with the fish? And she goes, well, I was at this conference, and it's a visual reminder to make sure that you don't forget to think about the big fish. And so what are the big projects? What are the goals? What, what's the, the strategic vision for the group or for the program or the company? Because you can get so bogged down in the, in the minutia that you don't have time yet to work on the things that really matter. And like the 80, 20 rule comes into play, I think in, in everything. Right. And so 80% of your time is going to be consumed with like 20% of the value. So how do you turn it around? Right. So how do you make time to work on the 20% of activities that are actually going to give you 80% of the return or the recognition or the progress? And so some of it's time management, some of its priority management. But yeah, so typical day, tons of emails, tons of alerts and hopefully it doesn't include a major incident that throws your plans into the toilet and creates an all hands on deck situation.

So I think we can all relate to the tons of emails and what I would call firefighting. Oh, this has come up now I need to divert my attention here. Oh, this has come up. Like I'm working on a project now I have to go over here. Do you have decision making advice? Like how do you, how do you, like you called it strategic thinking, which I love because I would call it critical thinking. And, and they go hand in hand. Yeah. What do you, how do you triage relative importance for yourself for the day? Like, it's a tough question because.

No, it is and I think a lot of it, it gets developed intuitively over time. Yeah, no, I think about reaching up and touching a hot stove or hey doctor, it hurts when I do this.

And the advice, don't do this.

Right, don't do this. Yeah, exactly. So I think that the, I'm going to say the biggest thing is if you have that sort of vision or prioritization done ahead of time, right. Then you've got a measuring stick that you can use against everything else that comes in. What are. All right, so not all emergencies are created equal. And I remember this little cartoon saying that someone had on at their desk. Poor planning on your part does not make an emergency, does not account for, for an emergency on mine.

I, I actually had that on my desk when I was doing organization development. Failure to plan on your part does not constitute a crisis on mine.

There you go. Yeah, and, yeah, and, and so, but

I mean that didn't stop me. By the way, I, I will parentheses that after that, which is, it doesn't stop me from helping you. It's just don't make it my crisis. Right. Like. Yes, exactly. Help you, but

if I could do it by 3 o', clock, I will, but if I can't, you don't, don't shoot the messenger. Right.

And.

Exactly, exactly. So, yeah, so not everything is created equal. And, but if you have that priority list, if you know what those big fish are, if you know what the risk, potential risk is for each of these items that come up, then it, then it helps, helps you to, to kind of categorize it. Is it something that, that, one, I have to do? Two, do I have to do it now? Three, is it something that the team can do and, and, and be pushed down or, or can it be kept in the loop?

Right.

So I think that, yeah, so, but if you don't have that measuring that, if you don't have that scale in your own mind ahead of time, then it makes it a lot harder to get those answers or to, to deal with things effectively or efficiently.

I think that's, you said that so well, seriously, the, the idea of pre prioritization, like, it's not a crisis if it doesn't meet this threshold. You haven't, you didn't say quite that way, but it's, that's really what you, what you're, what you've said is it's got to meet a certain number of, of criteria before it'll get really a lot of my attention. It's like parenting is a bone sticking out, you know, like,

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pause or unmute myself while I cough here. So, yeah, I like it. Do I have to do it? And with the emphasis on I, is it me? Is it a me problem? Do I have to do it? Do I have to do it now? And can the team take it? I love that. I love that.

Yeah, I, I, yeah, actually. And maybe it's even a potential segue. So I just. The last call I took before, before we, we started talking, I have been asked to run a panel at a trade show here coming up in a couple of weeks. And I've been working with this, communicating with this one lady that I'd really love to have on the panel. And the questions that were coming back made her seem hesitant, so I knew there was something else behind the scene. So we finally had a live conversation and, and she was able to explain, well, I'm getting all of these invites and my team is feeling left out. So I was thinking about maybe delegating And I was thinking, oh, that's wonderful. Well, I've got all these other opportunities. How about I keep you for the panel and then I'd be happy to bring your team in on A, B, C or D. Right. So, but from A. And the reason why that made me think about this is delegation shouldn't be a sign of weakness because the team, it does wonderful things, it increases your capacity as a group, it shows confidence. And I think that the team, if you've got the right team, should be hungry to take tasks like this or that are assigned. It's like, hey, I could do this. But you know what, I want you to run with it. Can you do that for me and report back or keep me copied on the communications? And so I think that being A. Yeah. Delegating shouldn't be seen as, or felt like a bit of a sign of weakness. Even if you're able to do it in 30 minutes and it may take your team member 60, it doesn't matter. Right. It's, it still can be beneficial all the way around.

Absolutely. That's how you grow a team. And you know, I've worked with organizations where they say the value, they have values of growth. And yet there's hoarding. You know, I'll just do it, I'll just do it. And it's going to take them forever. It's like, yeah, it might take them forever the first time, it might take them half of forever the second time and pretty soon like give them a chance. Right. So, and I love the idea that the leader that you just described also, she recognized that her team was a big part of who she was, her success. And I, I think that's great to be able to call that out. You know, nobody, nobody succeeds alone. And that's, that's a really important leadership lesson as well. Yeah.

Yeah.

So do you want to talk a little bit about what Mitel does, how it integrates and who accesses it? You know, it's kind of a mini infomercial, but it's also really interesting because not many of us have access to kind of behind the scenes at a security organization.

Well, yeah, so my Mitel is actually, it's a 52 year old company started and founded in Ottawa. Headquarters have moved around over the years and I think they're currently back in Ottawa. But what we do is enterprise telephone systems. And, and so yes, phones are still a thing in some industries and sectors. More off, more, more needed than others. If you hospitality, there's still a phone pretty much in every hotel. Room. So these are the types of systems that manage and run and operate those phones. Education, big head, large phone users, call centers still, of course. And so mitel over the 52 year history even has been a consolidator as opposed to a consolidate. So we've been acquiring other phone manufacturers and phone equipment providers over the years. And so now Mitel is either number one or two in the global marketplace, depending on sector for the unified communications market. So we do hybrid telephony. We're about 5,000 employees worldwide. We've got over 70 million users over, over that lifespan. So. So yeah, so we're a global telecommunications player focused on enterprise communications. If you were watching the World Series, I think maybe a couple of your viewers might have watched it in the Toronto dugout. You'd see the Mitel logo by, in the, in the dugout, in the bullpen phone. When, when they went back and they, and they were calling to see if the picture was ready, there was a little Mitel phone logo or whatever right, right there in the bullpen.

Oh, that's great. That's great. Cool. So if people have questions about what you do or want to reach out to you, are you open to LinkedIn connection or.

Absolutely, yeah, no, absolutely. And I think what I do in my, I'll call it my spare time. Eight years ago I started up a cyber security meetup group. So I love to give back to the community and that's also spun off to for the last seven years a two day security trade show based here in Ottawa. So yeah, so I definitely value anybody that helped me along, along the way and I've remembered that. And part of the whole pay it forward things is I try to give back to the community. So absolutely I'd be open to questions, comments, advice. I figure conversations are, conversations are cheap and you never know where they're going to lead some of the best jobs. I've ended up having started with an impromptu conversation that would have been easy to have said no to. Sometimes saying yes is the harder, is a harder decision to make, but quite often it can be the most, the more rewarding of the, of the two choices.

And that by the way was a huge leadership nugget as well. You know, it's easy to just go, nah, you know, no, I don't think so, I'll pass on that. And you say yes and you create a new relationship that creates other relationships and pretty soon you've got a network that you didn't know you even could step into. So that's amazing. That's really great. So for people to find you, it's, it's not fancy. William. It's Bill Dunyan. D U N N I O N.

Yeah. And if you see a Dunion in LinkedIn in Canada, you can get, I can guarantee you that it's part of my family. So we're, yeah, yeah. It's one of those little trivia things that I don't post on LinkedIn. Yeah, we're the only Dunion family in Canada, which is pretty, pretty remarkable.

So that is remarkable. It's not like.

Yeah, so it'll either be, it'll either be one of my sisters or it'll be one of my kids, but there's only one family in, in Canada, as far as I'm aware.

Okay. And for our audience, don't stalk his sisters or his kids. Just go for Bill Dunny and just look him up and make that connection. This has been great. I, I didn't know you did a cyber security meetup group. I think that's great. It's a beautiful invitation for people that are in that field. I, I, that's great. Anything else that you wanted to cover that I didn't ask you about that you were hoping we'd hit or anything else?

No, I, I just think that

I'll,

I'll, I'll actually, I'll, I'll leave you with, with a thought and it's decision making advice that, that I still hang on to, that I learned from my dad once upon a time is that when faced with a decision, he used to tell me, make make the choice that gives you, leaves you with the most options. And, and I've, I've taken that advice to heart many times. So if I look to change jobs and it's, I could do this one or I could do this one. All right, well, dad says which one gives me the most, most options? And so all things created equal, that's, that's a bit of advice that I've kept dear, close to my, close to my heart and it's served me well over the years. So I think that can apply in leadership, it can apply in life at home, it can apply all over the place.

So I apply that when I play Gin Remy on my phone. So you know, do I get a run? Do I get a set? It's, it's beautiful. What's your dad's first name?

Patrick.

So a tribute to Patrick Dunn. Make the choice that gives you the most options. I love that.

There you go.

I love that. It's a, it's a beautiful way to close this out. Love that. All right, Bill, Bill Dunyan has been my guest. And thank you for being here. Really appreciate it.

Wayne, thank you very much. It was a sincere pleasure and honor, truly.

All right, Bill Dunyan, chief information security officer at Mitel. You can find Bill Dunyan at LinkedIn or on LinkedIn. And this has been, this is and continues to be one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most. Again, I'm Wayne Purnell, Dr. P. Your host, guide and coach on this journey. We will see you again here next time. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening to one sharp sword cutting through to what matters Most with outfluencer Dr. Wayne Purnell. For more information, please go to onesharpsword.com.