Interview with Eric Holsapple

Welcome to One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters Most with your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the breakthrough success coach and your powerful presence mentor. Welcome to One Sharp Sword cutting through to what Matters Most. I'm your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the exponential success coach and the president of Dynamic Leader Incorporated. I have a very special guest with me today. I, you know, a lot of people reach out and they're like offering themselves to be on my show these days. And I get to be a little selective and it's great when I am presented with someone, with people who are aligned in terms of how do we get better, how do we become more mindful about our lives and how do we show up as better leaders. And when I learned about Eric Holsapple, I wanted to know more and so I said yes. And I might have just not said his last name right. And so holes. Close enough, close enough. Eric Holster. Apple holds. Apple, please, please. Just like. Yay. Welcome to the show. I appreciate you being here. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me on, Dr. P. Yay.

It's really great. So you've got this whole thing that you're doing now around leadership. And it's not just leadership. You take people through a full on program about how to be more mindful in leadership. And that appeals to me because I'm really looking at how to create a culture of caring out there. And I believe that starts with leaders who understand who they are and understand that the people that work with them are human. So talk a little bit about your work and then I want to wind back the clock and talk a little bit about how you got to do the work that you're doing now.

Yeah, well, our feature program is a nine month program. It's a deep dive and it starts pretty shallow. Most assuming people haven't had any experience in mindfulness. And we start with two minutes of meditation and some gratitude and those kind of things and work up. And then after a couple of months, you know, the mind starts to settle down a little bit, we start to get a little more focused. And then we start working on blind spots. You know, strengths, weaknesses, sabotages and purpose. You know, what is we always say, you know, I can't get motivated or I can't get my team motivated. And I've really found that as ties directly to purpose, that if someone and I think leadership's the same, if you find people stepping into leadership that you wouldn't least expect it when they're motivated by purpose, when they find find out who they truly are and something they really care about and feel like they can make a difference on. So right now, and, you know, we're talking about meaning of their lives and, and purpose, inner purpose, out of purpose. Inner purpose is really, you know, to wake up, to realize that I'm a conscious being that I have, I have, you know, things outside my body that I have access to. Waking up to that and then can I take that to why what I do? Because can I take that to my various roles of parenthood and work coaching and athletics or whatever, and that I find that to be in the zone, you know, when I can have. When I can experience my inside world and the outside world at the same time. That's in sports, the most, you know, common reference of that is when an athlete is in the zone. They're, they're, they're just totally present. And I've, I've really found ways to do that. Not 24, seven and not all day, but no ways to do that at work. You know, how can we be in the zone at work and not. I just think it's a terrible waste to work all day so that we can have a life when we're outside of work. So we work really hard on finding ourselves present at work. And then how do we turn that focus, that flashlight off at work and on our home life when we go home at night and be present there, not constantly dragged back in because we're. And so, you know, it's really over a long time that people just start noticing, noticing what's noticing and noticing all the distractions that are out there. We just pull. The business is so beautiful at pulling us in every direction. Every slice of our attention is grabbed somewhere. And we can, we can multitask, man, but we can't focus on all those things at once. So we have to decide, choose through purpose what we want to focus on. Then we create a new vision for ourselves and, you know, try to live into that, launch into that the whole time. Creating habits, because I believe you are your habits, you know, and your self concept and your habits are, or who you end up being. So you have to, you know, most of us need to extinguish some bad habits and foster some new ones because I've just found we can have the greatest vision in the world, the greatest commitment and the intellectual understanding. But if our habits are amiss in it, if our habits are, you know, not aligned, we don't have much of a chance. But if I can align my habits with my cons My concept, my self concept, and what I really want with my life, then I got a real chance. I can, I can wire all my operating systems, the one that are on and the ones that are off, you know, that aren't totally conscious right at the moment. I can align them all towards a vision rather than having them sabotage me when I'm not paying attention at the moment, you know, when I'm off my game, which is, you know, a good part of the day.

So this is, it's interesting. And, and just in a few moments, you've said probably six months worth of material, so.

Yes, exactly.

That was. So I want to back it up a little bit because. And I've been taking notes as you've been talking. You didn't use the word integration of work and life because have. You could have. Yeah, because. And, and so that's what I'm saying, that's why I'm bringing that word back, is to say you really. Mindfulness is about work, is about the, the integration of work and life and recognizing that it's life that you're not, you know, and it's real presence and to back up where you started to go all the way back to where you started and talk about. Okay, so the program is nine months. What you said at the very beginning was, sometimes it's, it's. You'll take two minutes of gratitude and meditation and that a lot of people haven't even experienced that. And so, you know, assuming that our audience members know what gratitude is or know what meditation is, but they don't really do it because knowing it and doing it are very different sometimes, definitely. What would you say is a great way? Because this is all about. When you talk about mindfulness and mindful leadership, the more mindful you are as a human and recognizing it's not just integrating work and life, it's integrating life. And it's not just integrating internal and external or it's not living dually, it's living in this integrated way. Do you have ideas for how people can just start? Like, what would you say to someone who's listening, who goes, oh, you know what? If I get, if I get this, it might be. It might make sense to do the next step.

Yeah, I think it starts with an intention, you know, to be more mindful and then to start noticing and then pick up something. I mean, what does it mean?

Let's, let's go to, to the very basics. Eric, what does it mean when people say. And I mean, you and I know what mindfulness is. And my guess is that we might even have different definitions of it because it's, it's kind of personal too, right? The, the experience. Mindfulness is kind of personal.

I, I focus on professionals. I feel my niche is not, you know, there's people that are more steeped in mindfulness practices, Eastern traditions. All I am where I feel that I've, I'm carving a path is that I found ways to do it at work and I believe. So I, I boil it down very, very succinctly. Mindful. My mind is full of what I'm doing at the moment. Focus. Mindfulness is focus. Can I focus on what I choose to focus on? The exclusion of all the other opportunities out there. Because there's a world, there's a plethora of things going on in the landscape at any one time and what I choose to focus on. And then can I just notice when I'm there and when I go away, can I come back to it? Can I notice when I'm there and when I go away? So I, I try to keep it really. I mean there's, there's, you know, ten dollar sentences about mindfulness, you know, and it's all great and, and all the things in there, non judgment, compassion, all those things, they allow you to focus better. Yes, because if I'm judging something, I'm not focused. I've made a decision already. So can I focus and pay attention to something? Is, is primarily what we do. And we do it in small slices because we're not used to it. We're used to thriving on distraction. We love to be distracted. We've got the habit of not being present. So to get a habit, I believe you start small. A couple of minutes of some practice that is training my focus. And it's more like a training a puppy than anything else I can describe. It's, you know, the puppy keeps getting off the newspaper. I grab the puppy my mind and put it back on. The newspaper runs off the newspaper, I grab the puppy and put it back on the newspaper. You know, not for an hour, two minutes, then I go do something else, you know, and then I start noticing and over time my mind calms down a little bit and I want, I become more efficient because I'm more focused, I have more time and also I crave more because in those gaps between thoughts, when one thought stops, another one starts. Is where peace and joy and harmony exist. Stress and anxiety lift in what we think about things, not in what actually happens. You know, so we start to notice and get A little bit of a separation, just a little glimpse of a separation between our thoughts and who we really are. You know, watching the watcher of the thoughts and noticer of the thoughts, the notice of the sight, those things. And then that's a game changer. When you get to that, when you get that, that's just a start. But that's a taste of something that you go, gosh, that felt really good.

That's huge. When you, you know, it was Fritz Pearls back in the late 50s, early 60s. He was the founder of Gestalt Psychology. He talked about actor, observer.

Yeah.

And so being in that space and other people have written about it, certainly. But to be in a place of. I'm in the moment and I'm watching myself in. In the moment, that's not a distraction. That's actually a very heightened level of presence. I just, I think that's an amazing place to be. And it starts with, can you spend two minutes just being in the moment? Can you spend two minutes just in a space of focus? And as you said, if the puppy goes off the paper, if your mind goes off of that thing you're focused on, bring it right back. Just bring it right back.

Notice, just start notice. And then you notice it throughout the day. Start noticing, you know, sorry, sorry, Dr. B. I wasn't really here for that. Could you repeat it?

Yeah, very nice.

I was. I was off somewhere on another journey.

Yeah.

What about. And then what a gift that is when you're talking with someone and I start training people at work because I think it's just more applicable. But when you're talking to somebody and have them feel like you're really listening to them, to hear what they're saying, not. Not to. Preparing what I'm going to respond to, but acknowledging that.

Right?

Yeah. Yes. Rather than just always preparing for the next thing I'm going to say to fill the space. God forbid there'd be a silence to fill it. And then, you know, he's trying to work. And then you go home and you go, your. Your wife or husband go, wow, thanks for. Thanks for listening.

Exactly, exactly. That kind of presence is such a gift. I was going to say, you and I both did something ahead of the recording that ensured a little bit more presence that we'd each give each other. And that was. We shut off our phones. And that's a deliberate act. It's a deliberate act. Like, what does it take? You know, I've stopped wearing the. Any kind of electronic watch. I usually have an analog watch on and that. That came from, you know, I used to have the watch that would send me alerts. You know, it was an Apple watch. And I thought it was great because tech and I could get all my things, and I'd be talking to my wife and clearing a message and talking to my wife and clearing a message. And at one point, she goes, do you have somewhere to be? I'm like, what? She goes, you're. You know, you're involved with.

They're our best teachers. They're our best teachers. Wives and kids are our best teachers.

She was like, you're involved with your imaginary friends. And I'm like, what? They're not imagining.

Oh.

And it was at that point I made the choice to, you know, from Thursday evening, I was going to train myself to not wear the watch all day Friday and all weekend. And at that point, it was like, I don't actually need.

I went back to an analog watch.

Yeah.

Because I found. I went. I thought I was celebrating that I've gone to one thing, my phone. But I found that I'd look to see what time it was, and then I would go down a rabbit hole, Right. You know, every time I want to see if. Oh, there's so and so texted, and I'd go into that thing. So, yeah, it's a. It's an. It's a practice itself. The other thing I'd say, when you say the phone thing is that's what we try to do at meetings, you know, is. Is meetings aren't productive. They're. They're too long at work. People are so distracted. So we try to say, could we. Could we shorten it and just be here. If you got something else to do, go do it.

You know, I love that.

But here, we're gonna. We're gonna meet. Instead of an hour, is 30 minutes, you know, if you got to take a call, please excuse yourself. We're gonna try to shut the screens down and talk to each other. You know, we have permission to do a little centering before we do it. And, you know, let's have a meeting. Let's get out the meat and. And then go do the next thing we got to do. So that.

What a great commitment.

That email will wait a half an hour, an hour a day. It'll wait.

Yeah. I just had a. I had lunch with a. With a bank president, with somebody I've interviewed on my show, and we had. It was breakfast. We had breakfast together. And he. He was talking about reflecting on his years as a bank president, and he said, One of the things that he did was remind his team we're a bank. It's not life or death for many people. Any of the decisions, like let's just get done what we need to get done and have a good time doing it and remember that we're here to serve people. And I think for any business, isn't that great. It's like what a great message.

Well, one of the other, you know, gifts of being a little more present at work is noticing how much we discount people that we work with. You know, I found myself getting to know enough about people and enough little conversation to get what I needed, you know, and then I move on if I don't need some money. Know they're there to, you know, actually realizing there are actually people with hopes and dreams and families just like you and I are. And they deserve to be, you know, notice and recognized and good morning. You know, one of the practices we have is, you know, for leaders, especially when you go in the office in the morning, well before you get going and just in your trance with your screens, walk around the office, you know, walk around the office once, just notice who's there, say hello and then go back in and do. But you know, be notice people.

I think this message is so important and it's whether you're in a leadership role or whether you're in a support role, you can be a leader by doing exactly that. That you walk around that you are connecting human to human, that you're reminding people like one of the greatest gifts that a leader can give. And this is, it doesn't matter what your title is, you are, if you do this, you are a leader is to remind other people of their strengths and of their humanity and like remind them of the things that they've forgotten about who they are.

And we've got one of the ones in our mindful leadership program now is task. For the last month it just been, you know, noticing the significance of those around them.

Yes.

You know, we get, we get so that we such have a high self. Many of us leaders get so that we have a high self sense of ourselves, you know, of our own value that everyone's around to serve us, you know, because we've got such important things to deliver on. Right. But we don't actually recognize and for him it's been going back and recognize the significance. It started at work but then he's noticed, you know, how he does that with his wife and yeah been quite transformative of him to notice all the significant things that she does for the

family in the day, I think that's, that's so huge. And even to do it when you're out in the community, you know, do it at the, when you're, when you're buying your next groceries, coffee, whatever it is, notice the, notice the other person.

You know, I think that's one of the reasons I got into this work originally was just running at 150 miles an hour.

Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about your journey. Where did you, where did you start? Because you, you're based in Denver or just outside of Denver now.

Yeah, I started in. I'm in a little town in Maine. I grew up a little, little town in Maine. My dad was a football coach and I came out to Colorado during college and ended up going through get an MBA and hopped out into a real estate job and I was immediately successful. You know, I was within a couple, I was a manager within a couple years. President of a North American division for an Australian company. This was back in the 80s, you know, when the Japanese were invading the country and with buying all the real estate. Owned 60 of downtown Los Angeles. Well, there were other places. The Australians weren't far behind them, they were just smaller, but they were buying things. And so I'd been an athlete and you know, love sports and all those things. But I went into a business career and it was 70, 80 hours a week, you know. And when you work for on the other side of the globe at six at night, when you check it out of the office, you got on the phone with them and I found that I was just on a treadmill. I was outwardly very successful. I had the title, I had the Mercedes, the apartment, all the stuff. But inside I was dying. You know, I was overweight, I wasn't doing any exercise. I was single, I was drinking too much, those things. So I got a transfer to Boston. They had a New York Stock exchange company in Boston and they got in trouble with it and sent me to Boston. The best news was there are enough problems in town. I didn't have to travel because the week before I think I traveled 50 out of 52 weeks, you know, but so I was in town, I had to go back and forth to New York, but that was a day trip on, on the shuttle and got a nice apartment on the, on Boston Harbor. And I said, you know what, I'm gonna go get a scale. I hadn't. Where I was hanging out, there weren't any scales in the bars. I was hanging out in So I went and got a scale. I stepped on that, and I knew I was having, like. I couldn't get my tie done, and I couldn't get my belt quite buckled. But I wasn't giving up. You know, I wasn't going buying new stuff yet because it just wasn't there. But I stepped on that thing, and it was like a shock. I looked at it and I go. I remember looking in the mirror and having that aha. Moment of going, you got to make some changes and you're not going to be around very long. And I'd had some chest pains when I was in my early 30s, and that moment was a snap. And I just went, okay, I'm going to make some changes. I worked to leave in that job. I lost some weight. I started running again. I'd been an track person, you know, and I hadn't run in five years, and I started doing that again. And somehow I stumbled on yoga. I don't know how I know anybody that did yoga. I'd never been to a yoga class that wasn't. This was 1990 or something, you know, it wasn't. That wasn't all over on every corner like it is today.

Right.

I started with a dvd, and it was a game changer. I'd become disconnected from my body was like Ken Robinson, the author, said, my body was something that took my head from meeting to meeting. You know, I just got. I started noticing through awareness, through my body, that was a game changer. And then I mentioned my dad was a football coach. My oldest brother was a poet, and they were like oil and water. He was estranged for the family. When he gre, you know, he did what my dad said, grew cuts, played football or, you know, after graduation, he left, you know, so I watched my brother took up meditation. He and I were close. He was one of my mentors, and I took. He took up meditation. And I noticed him come back to the family. And then he opened up to my dad. My dad opened up, he started talking, and my dad didn't change a lick. He was in his 70s. He was, you know, an authoritarian football coach. You'll do it this way. And it was the first time I'd seen one person change, change the whole world changed my world. You know, I got my family back. If anybody's had anything estranged like that, or people within the family not. And most our families are dysfunctional just as varying degrees. So he said, do you want to try it? I said, yeah, I'll try it. And it was a game changer. For me immediately. And I, I started a practice and I'm a pretty disciplined person so I just started it with a morning yoga and meditation practice and but for years I didn't come out, you know, I kept it to myself. I wasn't running around a business meeting say I'm doing yoga and meditation. I mean most people didn't everything heard of it back then. So I just did it myself for years and years, a little bit at a time. But I was disciplined. I had a practice doing it. I'd gone back and gotten a PhD in economics do that went back out into business and one by one people just started noticing me change and asking me, you know, what are you doing? What's this? What would you do in this situation? Historically I wouldn't have, I was going at such a speed I wouldn't even notice you had a problem or they even wanted to talk to me because I was just going to the charge in the next hill, you know, how are we going to build that shopping center? How are we going to do this? Let's do that. And I still have that. But I started being someone that could slow down enough. So we started a seed group at the company, myself and another fellow where we once a month sit down, read a book, work on. We didn't call it meditation, we called it centering things. Before I knew it, the room was full. People that were interested in getting to know each other slowed down a little bit and learning some new things. Business people, top business people. I was teaching at the university part time too and just met these kids that would come as an internship and then starting the company. They're brilliant people. Then we ended up bringing in Mindful Based Stress Reduction, an eight week program, you know, for the whole staff. And then the management team got together. I was one of the facilitators. But then they renamed the vision statement to Mindfully Creating Community.

Wow.

Which was a game changer because it gave everybody permission on the clock.

Yes it did.

To be mindful and to everybody's involved in non profit work. We cook some company. I mean I had been a big thing in that because I was teaching and doing a bunch of other things in addition to business. So anyway, I just saw such great results. I ended up starting a non profit called Living in the Gap and training other professionals and then wrote a book to try to you know, share the message with the business community that it's a, it's a, it's a business culture and it's a business strategy that's a different way that that cannot just change your business. It changes lives, changes communities.

I that is so good. I to go to judgment for a second. I love that so much.

I'll take that judgment. You are listening to one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most with your host, Dr. Wayne Purnell. You know you are bigger than the life you are leading. It really is time to attend to that thing you've wanted to do or have, but you've been putting off. It's time to step into that dream. You've parked for someday. It's time to claim true well being both personally and professionally without giving up the success that got you here. It's time to check out Dr. Purnell's signature small group retreat, the Exponential Success Summit. Explore exponential success summit.com Seats are extremely limited as this is a very special small group event. Www.dotexponential success summit.com

One of the key pieces that that is a side benefit that most people don't get about meditation, about being centered, is that when you change yourself, when you really drop into yourself, you can't help but change the nature of the relationship that you have with the people around you.

I was saying 1 meta 1 meditator changes the household. Absolutely everybody, people start and they say, geez, my husband or wife would just do this. They should. And I, when I say, well, hold on, they don't need to do it. Only one person needs to do it. It's you. They invite you to just start. If they choose to, it's because they see a change in you.

That's exactly right. Be that person. Be the, you know what I call the beacon of light. Be that person.

Well, it's like my brother changed our family. He was the only one doing it. He changed the whole family. You know, he opened it up and

that's, that's the whole thing. We are, we're in such a fast paced society right now. And you said, you know, it's easy to multitask and I'm braying at it. Well, I'm gonna, you know, there's a, there's a phrase that I use that's different from multitasking. And I learned it years ago. And it's toggle tasking. Because the truth is we're terrible at multitasking. We toggle task, which is I do

one thing

and, and the reset, the brain reset. It takes a lot of energy. So if you're, if you're distracted and then you got to come back and focus and you're distracted and you come back and Focus. It takes a lot of energy to do that. And so to be in a place of. I'm centered, I choose this. Another thought comes in, I acknowledge it. I'll just park it. I'm present. I'm doing this. And what a difference that makes in. In your household, in your meeting. Like, I mean, for. One of the things that. That I challenge my leaders to do is when was the last time you noticed the color of the person's eyes that you actually sat next to in a meeting?

I. I'd feel that one. You know, I would feel that one. That's a good one.

Yeah, it's the. It's like. Like, so I've got. I've got an Oxford talk, and it talks about, you know, how about. How about I see you before? How are you? Hey, how are you? And it's like, that doesn't anything.

I got one. I got one that I noticed we do the first couple of months of our program. You can't talk about careers.

Business people.

We don't allow them to talk about what they do.

That's so good.

I say what we're trying to do is bring who we are to what we do, not what we do to who we are. So you sit on a plate. If you don't do it, just sit on the plane. The first thing is, what do you do?

Yeah,

you never. Then all of a sudden, the hierarchy is set up and the conversations goes just, like, direction, and it's the most meaningless thing, usually you can imagine versus you don't. We don't ever get to know who somebody really is.

I have a. I have a playful thing that I learned a while back also. And I love this and that instead of starting with, well, what do you do? It's like, what's your favorite sandwich? And where'd you get it?

I love that.

Isn't that great?

Because it's like, yeah.

Oh, favorite. Well, and it's this place. Right. And it puts you back in a. In a particular time and place where you were when you had it.

And what I do, I kind of ask somebody if they're going home or going home or leaving home, and then try to dig into where they're from and that kind of stuff a little bit, you know, so.

Good.

Because it's just so we. We've become so hierarchical in our business.

Yes.

That it's. That it's, you know, we say, well, you're not your job. You have a job. You know, you're not your job.

You have a job.

It's yeah. You know, who do you want to be? Because really, if you're the same person, if you can't, you know, a clerk at a. My mother taught me this because she was one of the most enlightened people I'd ever known. You can be the clerk at the grocery store and change somebody's life, you know? You know, and you can be a, you can be the CEO of whatever, you know, and, and cause damage.

Yes.

Who do you want to be?

Such a great question. And, and that is, it's like, what do you want for and in your own life, you know, and that is everything from finances to relationships to location, you know, what do you want? And then who do you need to be or who do you want to be to have all those things like that?

I train leaders. I train leaders to be more and do less.

Nice.

You know, don't be a doer, be, be more. And then, you know, have a checklist of all the things that only you can do because then you can create some space, you know, if, because you need to create some space to be accessible, to let things calm down a little bit, to be able to focus and strategize. But you know, what can only you do? And then how do you just be more for the, for the company? How does somebody know that you're accessible? How could somebody walk up and talk to you, you know, if they had some great idea for the company or some tragedy that's happened? Are you the one that they're afraid to tell, you know, hoping nobody finds out? Are you open enough that they know you'd come in and say, let's go figure out how to fix that, you know. Yeah, let's go get that, handle that.

Yeah. I, I, you and I have both. I, I don't know, I'm assuming you and I have both met our share of leaders who are, they're living in positional power.

Exactly right.

Because of their position, they become inaccessible. Instead of, because of their position, they are the most accessible. And that's so important. Right?

Are, yeah, the best leaders have some humility.

Yeah.

You know, they realize they get their self esteem from their humility. They don't get their self esteem from their position.

You know, that they're true.

It's funny, I had, we had a, an assistant one time. I was going in the trash bag was, was overflowing. It was just overflowing in the lunchroom. And I went up to her and I said, hey, that trash bag is overflowing. And she said to me, yeah, would you mind taking it out? I said, I gulp for a second and I go, no. But then I said, where does it go?

Oh, that's awesome.

So I had to figure out where the dumpster was and I did it. And I. And she stood with us as you. I said, what an amazing. Yeah. Would you mind taking it out? That'd be great.

That's so, that's so good.

It is good. It was very humbling. I needed it.

That's really good. I. I ran a hospital based institution many, many years ago and one of the things that I would do on my calendar was to schedule what I call DOTF day on the floor.

Oh, awesome. Management by walking around.

Mbwa. Right. Management by wandering around. And for me it was truly day on the floor because I'd show up in jeans and a T shirt instead of, you know, my suit as the administrator. Jeans and the T shirt. I walk up to one of the, just one of the line staff and I'd go, look, today I'm working for you. What are we doing? And, and they'd be like, what do you mean? Be like, what do you do? What, what does your day hold? And how can I support you? I need to learn what you know, what you do and how you do it so that maybe I can help make your day or easier. And we'd be mopping floors, we'd be changing beds, we'd be, yeah, all those things.

Change your perspective totally.

And change theirs. Because as soon as they found out I was doing that, they were like, it's my day with you. It's my day with you.

Well, you became, you became human too for them.

Yeah.

Yeah, right. It's like they've become human for you. You become human for them.

That's exactly right. It's exactly right. Yeah. This is great. You want to talk about the 12 pillars, you know that?

Sure.

You've got.

I can do it. Yeah. There's, there's, there's three of the 12 pillars that are, I'd call them foundational. First one is be present and practice mindfulness. And anybody that accomplishes something, I found this lasting at least. You know, from artists to musicians to athletes, they have a practice, they practice it. You know, you can go Gladwell's 10,000 hours or whatever it is, but it's practice. Masters practice things. So be present and practice mindfulness. You know, there are various things that you can do. Everybody doesn't have to meditate. It's very effective. But, but there are other means. But find something that's a Practice and do it. Second one is identify your purpose in life. We've talked about that a little bit already, but purpose is just huge. If. And most of us, you know, I taught at University for 20 years, mostly seniors that came out, and I can't remember how many discussions, but there were many. The seniors would come in and say, why are you here? They'd say, well, mom and dad said it was engineering or business, and they pay for it. I really don't know why I'm here, you know. And I say, well, next out is, you know, job, marriage, house, mortgage. You're going to wake up in your 50, you know, so you might spend a little bit of time just figuring out, you know, mom and dad did what they did, and they're very appreciative for it, but what you want and who you are, you know, and they'll survive if you tell them, you know, it's not this. It's that they'll. They might be upset, but they'll survive, you know. But if you. Finding your purpose is just so huge to motivation and success. If you. If you're operating in something about who you truly are, it's not a job.

No.

You get up and just like, go. You know, it's like, I just wouldn't be in the offices. Be. You know, but I'm a scare. That's actually a lie. I'd rather be skiing. But I like being in the office anyway.

Eric. I. I have this belief about purpose, and it is that two things. One, when you say, go find your purpose, you do that through action. You don't wait for it. I'm gonna wait until I understand. And it's sort of like, so go try different things. The other thing is, is you're in your purpose. Like, the being is the purpose.

Like being a purpose. Echo. Totally your inner purpose.

Yeah.

It's finding out who you truly are.

And. And then I have. I have one more that I add to that, which is listen to the whispers. Like, are you being pushed? And that's probably some authority here. Or if you listen to that thing you've put off, it's almost like a tug from your heart area. Like, I've got. I want to explore this. I really, like. I'm drawn toward this. That cultures.

Cultures is ingrained whispers in us. You know, from schools, families to schools to governments, you know, we've become.

Those are the shoulds. Those aren't the necessarily the inner whispers. Like, all right, listen to the whispers.

I. I'm not familiar with that modality that you're talking about. I have, I'm familiar with inner Voice, but what I found is that people have found that purpose has been given to them by what, by their shoulds. You know, you should get your, you, you got to go to this college, you gotta get this job, you do, the marriage you need, the family is what you're supposed to be doing, blah, blah, blah. And they haven't taken the time to say all that's good. It's gotten me this far and I'm not in a bad spot. But what do I see from here? Am I going to take control of this?

And that's, that's the piece for me.

Go.

Next right, is all the shoulds. That's somebody else's voice. That's somebody else's voice. That's the authority.

Right.

What's the inner draw like? You know, it's where, for example, what

whispers have we ignored?

So you're, let's go to your brother, right?

Yeah.

He was the artist.

Yes. Poet.

Poet. So you know, you're supposed to be an athlete, you're supposed to be an engineer, you're supposed to be all these things. And he goes, I'm a poet. I'm a poet because that's what I'm drawn toward. And your parents may or may not have lost their minds.

You lost their minds. My dad lost his mind.

And, and everybody lived and, and should they have chosen not to, that's their choice. But your brother lived truly into his purpose. You, you know, you did athletics and still do. You, you did yoga and still do you, you did business and still do. And at the same time, you took all of that and you said, and this is what it looks like. This is my life purpose, like, is to awaken. I think that's cool.

So let's see if this aligns with your whispers is. So what we, what we train people is to get their affirmations from here, from inside, not from outside. We've had, you know, we've been, oh, what a bowl. Attaboy, way to go. We got an A. Did this. You know, all we grow up that we've been trained to, you know, Pavlov's dog of, of drool when we get the, when the bell goes off. So how can we turn that and then start listening to ourselves? Because culture is never going to be happy with us. You know, culture is going to say, this is the path. And in order to find to live purpose, I, I, our goal is to have a soul driven life, you know, to find our soul and to have it direct our ship, to have that I have to take, get my affirmation from inside and not look for everybody. Attaboy. You know, thing or even a mindfulness practice, I mean, it's still much less accepted than, than more accepted. I mean, I love.

The thing I love about mindfulness and meditation is there's no way to get external affirmation. Great job meditating there. It's like that doesn't happen.

Well, it is easy to get laughed at. It's easy to get laughed at. That's why I tell people to keep it a secret until you're sure with your practice, you don't have to share it. You know, stay in the, stay in the basement and do it. And then when you feel, when you know the results you've gotten, you can't get knocked off your game. And if you feel like sharing it, do, but do it for yourself.

It's about, you know, and I think you and I are saying pretty much the same thing here, which is the internal affirmation. When you stop seeking external affirmation, you know, you don't have to be, you don't have to be in a place of am I good enough? Because at that point you go, I, of course I'm good enough. Like that's, this is me I'm doing, I'm living my life now. And that's the work, like to get to that place of God.

God made me. How dare you. Of course I'm enough. I'm perfect.

You know, here I am exactly, you know, I'm perfect is exactly right. I'm perfect. So, and I, I, I, I like the idea of, yeah, well, when people, people will, yeah, but that with, well, I have these flaws and they'll start to list them and it's like, then those are perfect flaws, except them, right? They're perfect flaws. Otherwise everybody'd be identical. How boring would the world be?

So those first two pillars create clarity. The third pillars create clarity, vision, intention, commitment and habits. So we need clarity to set our own vision, to make sure it's our own unique vision. Not culture's vision of, you know, what we should be doing or our parents vision, but our vision of it. What do we want to create and then how do we live in it? You know, I find I can train myself with habits. We are habits, I believe. And I can train myself, my operating systems that when I'm offline, you know, not, not focused, it can still work towards my vision, but it's my habits that are required for that. So I said, but I have intention. Intention is at the subatomic level. It just moves things, my intentional things. It just moves things subatom that you can't see on the surface, but it moves everything towards a goal. If I'm living on purpose versus living on accident, you know, where it's just all hairy, scary. But once I get focused on that, then I can move it. Now, commitment and habits work together. I got to have the commitments to form the habits. But then the habits also support commitments. So when I get offline, when I get the virus, when I, you know, go on vacation, when the crap hits the fan or whatever, and I get off my game a little, my commitment gets me back on daily. My habits go there. But if I have commitment and habits that aren't aligned, I don't have much of a chance of fulfilling. Why didn't I committed to doing that? Why didn't I do it? Well, because we're habitual creatures. Something 95, 96% of the next action we take is just based on our past actions, you know, so. But we can over time. And I, I believe it takes time. I don't think there's an instant fix. We're all looking for a quick fix, and I don't think this is this quick. But if we can get our habits and our commitments aligned and our visions aligned, intentions aligned with clarity, we got a shot and just have a fantastic life, you know, of really, despite all the ups and downs and everything else. With some clarity we can have, we can move towards a life that's just, you know, unimaginable almost, that's, you know, wonderful in the face of adversity. So that's been my experience and the, the rest of the pillars of more or less mindset, you know, different mindsets of ungratitude and service and not taking things personally. And then, you know, they're training kind of things within those, the foundational pillars. But really pay a lot of attention to your habits, you know, and that takes some. That's where mindfulness comes in. Because habits are, are by design and by definition unconscious. They're just going, and you need some, you need to bring some consciousness, this flashlight on to say, what am I really? Well, I didn't even know I did that, you know. And what habits such as thinking, overthinking's a habit, anger's a habit, you know, that's great. Judgment's a habit. All these kind of things. Not just going to the gym and, you know, taking a walk or, or smoking and Drinking. There's all kinds of habits to pay attention to and to train ourselves. But we are trainable. It takes some effort and I'm not. Again, I don't think it's. You have to be perfect, you know, I don't think that's even a thing and certainly not what I aspire to. Well, but I do aspire. Yeah, I do aspire to a vision, you know, and I see more for the world than what we have.

That's so good.

I really, I really see more for it. And motivation for the book was saying, hey, business world, you can make a bigger difference. Still make money, still make profit. Profit's not your purpose. Profit's a result of a purpose driven organization. It's a result of that. Not the purpose itself, but. And it's necessary, it's required. I love capitalism and capitalism could do with a higher dose of consciousness. It would write its ship because when you can do more, you need to do more, you know, when you can give and be grateful and do those things and notice other people and be compassionate. Capitalism is a wonderful system. It's so flexible, it's so creative. I'm a real estate, I love to create things, you know, so I don't, I don't want any other system, but I would love it if our system was a little more conscious and, and the business community would kick the other politicians in the pants and say, hey, just move us, would you? Here's the goal, here's the, here's the guardrails. Okay, Compromise and move us.

So true.

Because we're about moving the world and we can't move, you know, through the mountain. We're going to have to go over and around it something. But we need you to help remove it. And I think the business community, in the end, when it starts hitting profits enough and they get fed up, are the ones that will kick the can. We'll kick the people and say, hey, enough.

I think we're close to that. I think we're really close.

Well, I'm amazed how, how resilient the economy is in the face of gridlock, you know, in the face of all the divisiveness and disagreements in spite of.

Right. I think it's.

Yeah. What could it be? What it be if, if we got aligned. I mean we could, we could change the whole earth, change the whole world if we were a little more conscious and you know, but you can't do it on, you can't do it in a silo.

No. Which is what a great paradox, right? The the whole mindfulness piece is so individual. Right. Observe yourself, observe your habits, observe your, Your style, observe your reactions versus chose is observed. That's mindfulness. Be in that moment and, and that's by definition a personal silo. And then you get a group of mindful people who affect others, who affect others, who affect others. And you can't, like, you can't help but change those around you unless there's an imposition of a silo. And that's, that's. Yeah, the, the, the intention has to be that we move beyond that, that we connect.

Absolutely right. Absolutely.

Yeah.

We're born to connect. True.

I mean, very true.

We love to connect. We don't want to be silos.

Connect and acknowledge, you know, and that's

a, That's a dysfunction of the mind. It's isolation is a dysfunction of the mind.

So true. That's the, that's the I see you piece before. Hey, how are you? No, it's, it's so easy to go, hey, how are you? Fine, fine. Good, good. Done my part. It's like, no, no, I see you. I'm gonna take an extra six seconds just to say, I see.

Yeah, that's where it starts. I mean, right. Yeah, it all starts with each one of it. If each one of us just took responsibility on and move, just decided we're going to move the needle a little bit, this thing would move.

So true.

You know, but. But if we're waiting for the other in Washington to get it straightened out, you know, Wall street to get it straightened out.

No, it starts with one.

The un, to get it straightened out. It just, you gotta just let's, you know, work on yourself. And as you have, and as you get, you have opportunity, share, you know, share what. You share what you found.

That's so true. So good. No, it, for me, it's the. It starts with one. It starts with an accountable eye, and then you get a group of accountable people.

And the beauty of it is, is that you change. You. You change the whole world. When you change yourself, you change your perception of it, you know, and you also change how you act, and that changes how other people act towards you.

Very, very.

You know, so my brother's example again, is one person changes the world.

Yes.

You know, your world, it changes it. You, you don't. You. You see what you look for out there. You start looking for things to be grateful for. You see them, you know, you start looking for people to see. They start noticing you. They start seeing you.

So. And it's.

And they you start listening to people, they start listening to you. And to be seen and heard, that's better than any pile of gold you're going to find.

This is that. And, and that is gold. I, I want to wrap at this point because I like that is so, so powerful and so positive. Eric, tell me, tell us your program is called. I'm looking down at my notes. The program is called 12 Pillars of Mindful Leadership. The book is called Profit with Presence. And your website is called livinginthegap.com.

is that all.org? it's a non profit. Yeah. Livinginthegap spelled out.org living and in that. Yeah, there's all kinds of free resources about how to get started. Blog posts, description. Main programs we have, you can sign up for a quarterly newsletter, those kind of things. You can download the book there or it's available on Amazon. And the book is, at this point, anyway, my best description of my overall philosophy, business philosophy and life philosophy and what we take two people through in nine months in our program, I think it's fabulous.

The work you're doing is really, really so important.

I hope so. I hope so.

Well, I don't.

I think we need to do something.

Yeah, exactly. You're doing, you're living in your purpose.

Well, I couldn't sit by and say, you know, and I'm not a politician, I'm not a podcaster. I just said, you know, what can I do? Well, I'm a businessman. This is how we did it. Why don't we tell the story to how other people could, could take a recipe and get started. It won't be exactly our story. It doesn't have to be cooked exactly that way, but to get, get a path to making a difference for your business and your family and your community and, and still making a profit.

That's so great. Are you on LinkedIn?

I am.

Okay, so I'm going to spell your last name so that people can find you.

That'd be awesome, Eric.

E, R, I, C. And the last name is Holes. Apple, H O, L, S, A P, P, L, E. And yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna invite our audience members to reach out to you on LinkedIn, to find you@livinginthegap.org and to look for your book. Profit with Presence. Love all of that. Eric, thank you for joining me. This has been really good. Really.

Pleasure, Pleasure for me too. Dr. B. Thanks for having me on today.

Thank you. All right, well, my guest today was Dr. I just found that out. Dr. With your doctorate in economics. Dr. Eric holds the apple. Really great to having you here. Thank you. This is one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most. I AM your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the exponential success Coach, the president of Dynamic Leader Incorporated, and I will see you here next time. Thanks for tuning in. Please like and share this podcast. Looking to get some some even greater growth and you do that by spreading the wor we exist. So thanks for doing that. All right, we'll see you here next time. Thank you. Thank you for listening to one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most

with your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne

Purnell, the breakthrough success coach and your powerful presence mentor.