Interview with Heather Mulligan

You're listening to One Sharp Sword cutting through to what Matters Most with outfluencer Dr. Wayne Purnell. Welcome to One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what matters Most. I'm your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, your host, your guide and your coach on this journey. Today I have with me someone who's really special. I've known her for the past, I don't know how many years and every time I talk with her I feel better. I feel like I'm enriched and she's just, she's this amazing woman that I wanted to bring to you. This is Heather Mulligan. She is the president and CEO of the Business Council of New York State. And she acts as the public voice for business interests. She lobbies for pro growth policies. She looks at areas for relief for New York State businesses. She is a quite a force and over the past few years of her leadership she's demonstrated strategic thinking. She's an amazing leader and to be in this role she has proven that she thrives in complex systems. You really would have to have all of that combination in order to be the president and CEO of the Business Council of New York State. Heather Mulligan. Welcome to One Sharp Sword. I'm so happy to have you here.

Thank you. I really appreciate you inviting me. And it's always strange to hear someone else describe you or you know, me, but. Yeah, so. And, and I will say like a personality trait of mine is I'm extraordinarily uncomfortable time. I always feel like I should crack a joke or something afterwards because it makes me sound like too serious a person.

Self deprecation. You could own it. It's like. Yeah, like you could own. Yeah, that's me. That's me. I'm wonderful. Right. So. And you are wonderful. It's, it's why I asked you here. So in your role of wonderfulness. Right. I mean every day is really serious for you. Every day it's kind of like I wouldn't want that job. I just wouldn't. Right.

I initially didn't. I mean I, I first just so you know, people understand what it is that, that we do and we are the state chamber of commerce and that meaning not part of the state. We're the, the trade association representing business in the state and we're also the state manufacturing association. So my members are every industry pretty much you can think of that exists in New York. The one thing that they all have in common is that they are employers. And so we have, Are we allowed to name.

Are Are we allowed to name some of the big ones?

I mean, sure, I, I think so. It's public information, so.

Right. So, so in my conversations at some of the, the, the gatherings that we've had, the soirees that, you know, I've met with leaders at Blue Cross, Blue Shield, I've met with Adobe, I've met with Google. I know that, that we're doing another gathering at Amazon. Like, these are not, like. The reason I'm bringing this up is because when you say it's sort of like the Chamber of Commerce, it is, but it isn't. You know, it's like, these are the superstars of the state of New York. They are what make it move. Because if they all left, you know,

it's like a problem. And I'm trying to make sure that they don't and they don't want to. I mean, it's a terrific market, but it's also. New York is a extraordinarily difficult place to do business. We have a very stifling regulatory environment. And, you know, despite the constant call for more taxes, we actually have the heaviest tax burden per capita in the country, more than California. If you took, you know, the amount of revenue generated off of each individual in the state, you know, including federal taxes, state taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, gas tax, you know, you name it, it's. It's significantly higher than every other state. So it's not an easy place. Yeah.

How fun is your job? Right?

I always tell people my job is a little bit like banging your head against the wall every day. And once in a while, you feel something move. You don't know if it's your head or the wall. But, you know, I, I think there is, there's a lot of recognition of the importance to, of business to the economy. And without private sector, you don't have any of the goods and services that are provided via the public sector. You don't have public education and health care and transportation and all those good things. So you need a robust public sector to make a place where people want to live and work and be able to thrive. So my job is. It's pretty hard. I like it, though. I, I, I like the challenge. And I am, at my heart, I'm an advocate. I like advocating for sometimes the unpopular. I was a public defender, the chief public defender of Rensselaer county earlier in my career, and, and I loved that role, too, because I was advocating for people who weren't necessarily in the best place that they've been in their lives. So I. I think in some respects, that's like, sort of my core that I like to. I like to be an advocate. I like to try and speak on behalf of individuals or companies.

I think that's amazing. You know, you've just, in going through some of your history, I know that you've. You are heavily involved in working for tax relief. You're heavily involved in making sure that child care is available. You're a big one for labor and workforce development and safety along those lines as well. You've. You've even been involved in prison reform and. And now corporate governance is your focus. What I want to do is. I didn't. I didn't actually realize that you were a public defender. So I want to wind the clock back all the way to. Usually, I don't go this far back, but for you, you weren't born in the United States, right? So we're going to. We're going to wind the. We're going to wind the clock all the way back to. There's a. There's a baby that's joined us from Tunisia.

Tunisia? Yes. My parents were in the Peace Corps, and I was, I think, one of maybe the first hundred babies born in the Peace Corps. So you can tell I'm old, but it was relatively shortly after the Peace Corps was formed. And. Yeah, so I was born in Tunisia and lived there, I think, until I was somewhere around 2 or a little bit less than 2 years old. But I did get to go back when I graduated from high school. I spent almost an entire summer checking out the country. And it was an interesting time to be there because it was very free and a very open country at the time. But things have changed a lot. It's become, I would say, much more limiting in terms of, like, I could walk around when I was 16, I could walk around in shorts and a tank top, and it was no big deal. But I think that's not really the case anymore. It's become a much more restrictive society. I'd love to go back, though.

So how old were you when you came to Syracuse?

I think, you know, not. Not long after, so probably less than 3. Somewhere under the age of 3. My sister was born in Syracuse, and she is just under three years younger than me. So that's my. My retracing.

Awesome.

But again, you know, I was. I was always. My mom is a retired French teacher, and she made sure that I knew a lot about Tunisia growing up, because I was born there and. And then again, helped arrange for me to spend almost an Entire summer there after I graduated from high school. So it was nice. It's definitely part of who I am.

So let's talk about high school, because you kind of whipped through it and you got out of it when you were 16. This is.

Well, you would, too, if both your parents taught there. No. You don't really want to stick around, spend all day as a teenager with mom and dad. No. I mean, all joking aside, I skipped seventh grade, I think partially when I was in sixth grade. I took classes at the middle school and then went straight into eighth grade. So I missed American History, believe it or not, that was like the first. The big class that I didn't get to take. So sometimes, you know, I'll read something or later in college, I'll. I'll be studying something about American history. And it's all fresh and new to me.

So that's good, because I think what we were taught in. In grade school is fiction. A lot of it, yeah.

Well, some of it, yeah.

Unfortunately, Yeah.

A lot of our. I'm not. I'm not burdened with them. I also was raised with the belief that because I was not born in the United States, I could not be President of the United States. So that was a real, you know, load off. Like, takes all the pressure off. Yeah, take that off my list.

Cool. So this is interesting. You actually. You went through. I've got. I've got kind of the research I've done. Right. So I wanted to just wander through some of it with you. You did go to law school in Albany and you got your JD when you were in your early 20s?

Yep, I started when I was 20, graduated when I was 23.

Amazing. Amazing. So all of that laid the foundation for where you are. What part? Like you. You told me privately, and this doesn't show up in the public, publicly available information about you. You told me that you had started down the veterinary path.

Yeah, my entire life as a kid, I was sort of this stereotypical horse crazy kid. I collected Breyer's horse models. I watched All Creatures Great and Small on pbs. Weird little factoid. My mom was very down on television. Said, actually, I quote her to say, it melts your brain. But for some reason, I was allowed to watch unlimited pbs. So I saw all of All Creatures Great and Small and, you know, wanted to be a large animal vet. Really from the time I was probably like 7 or 8 years old all the way up till I got to college. And that was my. My sole purpose in life was I am going to grow up and become a veterinarian.

How. How did you move from vet to law?

Yeah, that's. You know, it's funny. My high school, one of my best friends in high school, her mom was, was always saying, you like to argue too much. You should be a lawyer. I. It was just a joke. It was always a joke to me. So when I was in college, I had a number of interesting events happen. The big one being my stepfather. My. After my freshman year of college, which is kind of my sophomore year, because I had come in with a bunch of credits. He had a very, very major coronary event in Europe that summer. And so I was supposed to drive down to the University of North Carolina, actually fly down to the University of North Carolina or catch a ride down there and start my next year at Chapel Hill. But he was stuck in Belgium in a hospital. So I made an executive decision to demand my tuition money back. I drove down, I got my things, and I stopped at SUNY Binghamton on my way back and said, I need you to accept my transfer here. You accepted me out of high school. I didn't pick you. Sorry. But my older siblings had all gone there, so I was very familiar with it. And it was only an hour away from Syracuse, and I didn't know the degree to which my mom was going to need help. And I was just worried that I would be too far away if, you know, if he came back in bad shape. And believe it or not, I mean, I sat outside the dean of admissions office for probably a couple hours and they agreed to see me. And they took me in. They, they admitted me on the spot and I had to go register for classes with, you know, no declared major. I basically had to sign up for what was available. And there was no line at the political science table and there was no line at the geography table. So my whole first semester at Binghamton was essentially geography and political science classes. And I ended up loving the poli sci classes. So, I mean, complete random thing, but sometimes you have to just go with where your heart is. And at that point, I knew that I wasn't loving. You know, the college level chemistry classes, when I say wasn't loving, I would say did really poorly. My freshman chem class, I'm.

I'm going to confess the same that, you know, I was looking at psychiatry versus psychology and got to O chem, and I'm like, oh, no, I understand. It's interesting because these days I understand more than I did back then. So who knows? That said, I think one of the key Points that seems to be a theme for successful and happy people is. Is that they made choices, true decisions that were based from the heart. Like you chose to do. To do this school because it was family. It was kind of a bridge to family. And so it was your. Like, your heart brought you there. And then opportunity, like, this door of opportunity opened up and you were like, whatever, I'll just do it. And then you went, oh, my gosh, I love this.

Yeah.

And. And I think, look, I'm bringing this up and I'm underscoring it specifically, because I think we tend to see it as a distraction instead of an opportunity. And. And we. We in general, even deep into our careers, we need to be open to, oh, here's a door that might be worth opening and looking into. Oh, like, yeah, everything I've done has led me to this point. What's next? And I. I love that kind of curious place that actually does create this leapfrog. Like, wow, look where I looked, where I got to. I wouldn't have been there if I hadn't done this. Right. So it's kind of cool.

Yeah. So I think it's interesting that you mentioned that, because I can think of other examples where it was really deciding to take a chance to do something that I didn't know if I was going to like it or not. And it wasn't necessarily the first thing on my radar. And it turned out to be something I really loved. When I was at Binghamton, I took an internship in the assembly, which is one semester. You live in Albany, you work in the legislature. And it was, you know, in my mind, it was a chance to, you know, live with my boyfriend, who. Who was at Syracuse University at the time and had gotten the internship. And I thought, oh, well, this will be fun. We'll get to live together for a semester and see how that goes. And I love working in the Assembly. There is something very addictive about working in the middle of politics during a legislative session. And it was that that eventually led to me going to law school. That and a boss, really great assemblyman. The second person I worked for in Albany, a guy named Greg Young, who passed away a number of years ago, was amazing guy. He was an attorney. And he said, well, why. Why don't you want to go to law school? You know, why don't you go to law school? And I said, well, I'm not. I'm not smart enough to go to law school. I'm not, you know, this. I. I just. I feel like those are for People, you know, really serious people. And so he starts ticking off all these people who work in the legislature who are attorn. And I was like, oh, really? Okay, all right, maybe, maybe I could go. You know, I had in my, my mind, I don't know, something, something very old fashioned idea about, you know, who were lawyers and, and it turned out

lawyers and, and who were assembly people. Right, right.

Yeah, yeah. And it was, you know, it was great. And, and I realized that I could actually, if I stayed in Albany, I could probably get summer work in the legislature. So that's, that's how I ended up there. And again, it was kind of that and my stepfather telling me that I had to go to grad school, that, you know, there has to be a next step. You can't just spend the rest of your life working in the assembly. So

it's like, don't just waste your life in politics. So funny.

The funniest thing is my parents were both super active in Syracuse politics, liberal party politics, which I don't even think there's really a liberal party anymore. I guess they're the. Now they're the progressives. But so that's the, you know, the household I grew up in. We had home delivery of the Village Voice in Syracuse, New York, which I had no idea wasn't, you know, kind of something everybody got. And I used to, you know, enjoy the very, very racy classified ads in the back of it when I was a teenager. So just a different. It's funny, you don't know how different other people's lives are until you grow up, you know.

Well, that's right. And even I think you, I think you see it in your role like there is this sort of. Without it being ego, as in, as in, you know, kind of this personal self inflation. The ego being the self. Right. Self centered. There is a self centered, an egocentric nature to a lot of people. And I mean, you've traveled a bit and like to, to see how myopic we are in general as Americans, that we believe that our small world is the way the rest of the world operates. And it's really like you've had the experience of going, yeah, there's more, there's more. And we need to be, we need to be opening too much more, being like we need to become aware of so much more.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think we're very siloed both geographically but also politically and I would say economically too, having worked, you know, with people who couldn't afford an attorney. Right. And Public defender's office is for people who can't afford to hire their, their own attorney. And you see that there's been, you know, there, there first, there are radical differences in how the justice system treats people who come from resources or who have resources or connections and those who don't. And that's, I just have this sort of like 8 year old sense of fair. It should be the same rules for everybody. Right. But then also you see all the dissatisfaction that you see with this country and the way that the economic system is set up. But I will tell you, having been in other places, the opportunity here is far greater than it is anywhere else. And if you don't, if, if you haven't gone outside of the country and seen it with your own eyes, you would not be aware. You know, you hear all the negatives like that. We have some. And I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of people who struggle here, but the poverty in the US versus the poverty and say, you know, the slums of Cape Town, radically different, radically different in terms of governmental supports and resources and adequacy of shelter and all of those things. So I think we all need to step outside of our silos, whether it's, you know, going visiting outside of the us getting outside of your own neighborhood, or talking to people you don't agree with. And I think talking to people you don't agree with is one of the things we are doing less and less of. And I think that's really, really a shame.

I agree with you. Yeah, the, you know, the, the common struggle, like what brings people together is to fight, is to fight a common enemy. Right. What brings people together very often is to fight a common, common enemy. And right now we don't know what that is or who that is. And so, yeah, there's a lot of internal discord. Being able to have a conversation does bring people together as well. Like I will read and listen to journalism from all sides and, and it's striking how one sided each of the all sides is. Looks like unbelievable. Wow. Right? So, yeah, so open, I guess all of this up to this point is open, open to so much more. Like pay attention to what's beyond just your little community. So. Wow.

Also, I mean, I have to say, I think also the way that we receive information now in these sort of very small little clips.

Yes.

You hear that someone maybe said something that you don't agree with and if you don't get the context or the explanation or have any idea of how they have come to this conclusion. You might not understand how they came to that conclusion. That there is more to just the 10 seconds that you saw on YouTube or. I'm going to date myself, like on, on. I was going to say Instagram. I don't even know if it's a thing any. I think it is.

It's, it's a thing. Instagram's a thing.

Yeah, but that you, that's the thing. If you only watch something for 30 seconds, you don't have the full picture. And if someone is, is, you know, on the team that you don't root for, you don't know anything about them. Right. You don't. All, you know is that they're on this team doesn't mean that they agree with every aspect of, say, if it's a political party, it doesn't mean that they agree with everything that the, the, the head of the political party says. I mean, that's, that's the danger in it as we start just painting people into their own corners and not, and not recognizing that there's a lot more complexity towards how people arrive at the views that they do.

Yeah. I have two rules for myself and I, I would, you know, love it if everybody took these on. One is I, I don't paint any group with a broad brush, right? So. Oh, these people, the Republicans, the Democrats, the whatever. It's like it's not all of a particular group. So it's like these people within this group, they happen to be affiliated, they have this opinion.

Right.

That's, that's the first thing is I don't paint anybody with a broad brush. Second is if I feel triggered by something, my instant response. And this is trained like I had to really practice this. If I feel triggered, my question to myself is, huh, I wonder what the rest of the story is.

Yeah, I mean, that's, I, I think that's how, that's how we all should be. It's hard to do because a lot of things, you know, the things that trigger you are, they're hitting an emotional nerve somehow. Right. But I have to, you know, I'm on, I do a political, It's a political roundtable, which is a, It's a conversation that is usually a couple hours on the radio. It's public radio locally, and it's extremely, extremely left leaning. And I was raised in a very liberal environment, but I also am an advocate for business, fiscal conserv. Conservatism. I mean, social. Do whatever you want, pretty much as long as you're not hurting Anybody. But on the fiscal side, I mean, I think we have to be responsible with taxpayer. Taxpayer dollars. People have put this money into the system. We need to act responsibly, and we need to set up a policy framework that encourages natural growth, not penalizes growth. And so, I mean, there's a lot that I could say about that. But my point is, I'm not a conservative person, but on this show, I definitely am one of the more conservative voices. And sometimes, you know, there's a lot of rhetoric around certain elected officials, certain parties, and I cringe. And sometimes I'll say something like, I don't think that's fair. I think that you need to lay things out in a way that's a little bit less. Maybe less provocative or less polarizing. But partisanship for the sake of being partisan is something that has always bothered me because I've known people in both parties who are amazing public servants, amazing voices for the people who elected them, and I've known people in both parties who were not those things, so.

Agreed.

You know, so, yeah, there's. There's no. No ownership of the negatives or the positives. And that's.

That's why not to paint a. Everybody who is a XYZ as a. As a particular thing. It's like, I happen to be a member of this party. Okay. It's, you know, it's sort of like rooting for your favorite sports team, and anybody who's not your team must be bad. It's like, well.

Well, that is true. The Bills are the only team worth rooting for, in my opinion. Okay. But, yeah, I might. I have some flaws. There's. There. You. You found my. One of my biggest flaws, which is I am a very, very loyal Bills fan.

Okay.

And I will root for the Bills or anyone who might beat the Bills in the playoffs to lose.

I got you. Okay. Well, I. I am rare, I think, in that I will watch sports for the sake of seeing the good plays.

Fantasy team.

Then I. I just. It's like, wow, these guys look at that play, and people around me are like, you know, yeah, but did you see how great it was? Right? So, again, it's sort of like I look at the. At the people and not the, oh, if it's this team or this party, they must be the best or the worst or whatever. You've been with the council for 17 years at this point, is that right? Something like that. 18 years. Something.

I think. 18 years next week.

Congratulations. That's amazing. You started. You started in government affairs you started as a vp?

I did. I was hired to run Government affairs by my predecessor and actually was asked by a former elected official if I would interview for the job. I wasn't looking to leave the position I was in. And then when I came to interview for the job and talked to the then CEO, I was very candid with what, you know, what I thought needed to be done as far as government Affairs. And he said, okay, well, you can do all those things. And I thought, oh, wow, this is okay. I mean, I guess it was one of those things where I thought, well, I, I'll go, because I was asked to go interview. But because of the fact that it didn't have necessarily, I, I wasn't thinking, well, I really want this job. I just kind of was very candid with him. And as soon as he said, yeah, that's, you can do that, I thought, well, that's an interesting opportunity then because I was working for a lobbying firm and, you know, your portfolio is limited to who your clients are. And coming from the state senate, where I had worked on budget for a number of years, where I had a very broad portfolio, that kind of, the limited number of issues, it was, it was fine. But once you learn them, you know, them and then what, you know, then it's just, it's, it's like, you know, you're, you're basically pitching the same case over and over again until you win. And then you have to, you come up with, you know, the, the next thing versus the business council, which is a, you know, broader policy oriented, let's improve the business climate, let's create a more robust economy, more inclusive economy. And, and that could be a lot of things, right? We touch on virtually every sector. There's very few issue areas that are not somehow something that we work on. So, you know, there's obvious ones. There's tax and economic development, but then there's also workforce development and environmental issues and transportation infrastructure. I mean, you name it. Anything that government does, we probably have somebody who's working in that area. So we do some advocacy there.

It's amazing. What, what do you, what are some of the coming challenges, like the next year or two? I know that AI is going to be a big deal. It is for everybody. I try not to make it a trigger place because so many people are like, AI is coming to take our jobs. It's like AI is going to transform the way we do our jobs. Right?

It's, I mean, any great advancement. And I know there are folks who say, well, it's not an advancement, but it is, you know, machine learning and artificial intelligence is it, it's an incredible tool that will transform how we do things. But we also have demographic issues that it will help us with. Right. So when you see the, you know, the, the working age population and then you look, you know, beyond that at the birth rate and all of those things, if everything were to stay the same without technology, you know, technology and automation and AI, we would start losing GDP eventually because there's not enough people to do the jobs. And you know, that's only compounded by immigration. But this, this sort of, the problem of, of a shrinking workforce is not limited to the U.S. in fact, it's worse in some European countries. So we need, we need AI and we need automation in order to maintain productivity. So I mean, it is happening at a time when we need it to work and there's going to be pitfalls and there's going to be challenges. I mean, I don't know if the first automobile had brakes, but somebody figured out that you needed brakes because it's not hitched to a horse that you can just slow down. Right. So I think you have to figure things out as you go, but also accept the efficiency and the value that gets created by technological advances. So it's not good or bad, it just it, we need to figure it out and we need to do it in a way that we don't stifle it, that we don't limit what, what can be done with it, but also that it can't be so free, you know, so much of a free for all that it can, can be used for exploitation or, or for bad.

So what else are you seeing? Like besides AI? Right, so yeah, it's coming. Right, but yeah. And what else are you seeing?

Well, I mean, so New York specific, because the country is kind of headed in different directions on the issue of local and regional economies and the policies around economies. I mean, certainly in New York with newly elected democratic socialist mayor, there's a lot of noise around, you know, tax the wealthy, we need to tax them more. As if we don't already tax them more than everybody else in New York. I mean, we have the most progressive tax code in the country. We have literally like 1% of the taxpayers pay like almost 50% of the personal income tax that is generated and those are the high income earners. So can you know, the, the sort of idea that we should always just. We need to spend more and we need to make New York more affordable by taxing More, there's not a level of awareness that there are economic consequences to that that we are already feeling. I mean, we've already lost headquarters of Fortune 500 companies that represent, you know, something like a trillion dollars in, in overall revenue. Not to the state, but I mean, overall. But the moving of headquarters is significant because that's where the high paying jobs in those companies are. And if they move their headquarters out of state, we're losing all of those highly paid positions, we're losing the revenue that goes with it. And there are states that are going in the complete opposite direction. They're trying to deregulate and maybe some would argue making things less safe or more haphazard. But they're also cutting taxes, doing things to aggressively try and recruit high income earners. And at the end of the day they're going to end up with a bigger population and more clout at the federal level. And that's going to harm New York, which, you know, at one point in time I think something like, I don't know, I'm so bad with numbers, but something like six out of 10 US citizens lived in New York State and we're now maybe one out of ten. So it's, it's, it's not a good thing. Right. You need to have your, your population growing and, and there are people who would debate this with me, I suppose, but in order to have a robust downtown area and thriving restaurants and cool places that people go, you need people going there. And so, you know, at, at the most fundamental level, people want to live in places where things are happening and if there's not enough people around, we all saw this during restaurants close, stores close, and it's just not as attractive a place to live. Yeah, and it's not just climate. I mean, we're in the middle of a mini snow squall here right now. But there are states that are growing, that have climate that is arguably much, much less friendly than New York's.

What, throughout all of the twists and turns in your history, what has been the biggest leadership challenge that you've learned from?

Oh, well. So I don't know if this is an example that fits necessarily, but when my predecessor left to join the, the administration, the states, the governor, the governor's administration, at the time, it was, you know, somewhat of a, it was a surprise. And I was designated as the acting CEO while a search was conducted for a new CEO. And initially I thought, you know, I hope it's someone good. Like it didn't occur to me that I would apply for the actual CEO position because I like government affairs, I like advocacy, and I'm. I was up to that point, kind of used to being an advisor to someone who actually made the decisions. Right. And I would. I would advise ardently and, you know, try and get my way, but I ultimately had the safety of not being the one who made the decision, so that if it was wrong, you know, okay, well, I told you so, or, or, oh, I was wrong. Sorry about that. But. But it just. I didn't think I wanted the position. And I pretty quickly realized after doing the acting position for a short period of time that, hey, I actually really like it. And more than anything, I really like the public speaking component of it. And if you had told me that in college, where I would, you know, have a half a heart attack if someone, if a professor called on me, which happens in law school more than in undergraduate, but I. It was a complete surprise to me, but I was forced into it. Like, I had to be the spokesperson for a period of time and I had to run events and be the host rather than having the luxury of being able to only stick to my issue areas and give advice on the. So. But that was. I mean, it was a mistake to not put my name in at the beginning. And part of that is, you know, on my part, probably a bit of a lack of confidence that I was able to do the job. But, you know, I did get a second bite at the apple, so I was able to go back and say, you know, I. I would like to be considered. And, you know, ultimately, here I am. It was a long process, but I got here. So. But that's a, That's a good, I think, for, for any leader, the, the hardest, the hardest thing is to recognize if things are not going in the right direction. Excuse me. If. If you see the culture in your workplace is something where suddenly people are looking or they are maybe not wanting or they want to work remote more, they don't want to come in the office. You have to figure that out, and you have to recognize that, you know, it can't just be all your own ideas to solve it. You have to ask people, you have to get input, and you have to give them the space to disagree with you. And, you know, we. We've had very limited turnover here, I'm. I'm really happy to say, and I think it was a really challenging place to work during the pandemic because when a lot of people had not much to do, we had everything to do. We had to tell you know, we had to work with the governor's office every day on what's essential, what's non essential, how do we structure the shutdown rules, how do we, you know, and don't Forget there was 25% of the people could be in the office for. For a period of time, and then it was 10% and then it was no percent. And we were the hub of information for how to deal with COVID sick leave and all that stuff. So our hair was on fire for a year and a half, and I recognized and got input from my staff about how do we make sure that people don't get burned out and that we remain a place where people want to stay. And we've got. I mean, I've got one person here who's been here for 43 years, and he's amazing. He's gonna retire eventually and he's gonna. It's gonna be a huge loss to us. But he's engaged every day, rolls up his sleeves, likes coming to work. And, you know, that's, that's what you want. You want to build a place where people have the ability to speak their minds, and if there's a problem, you could be able to nip it in the bud early. And that's. It's hard to do.

It is hard to do. You mentioned a few things that I want to bring up as great leadership points. One is simply listening, and you do that by asking. And one of my rules for leaders who don't often think this far ahead in terms of asking, don't ask a question that you don't want the answer to. Yeah, right. And early in my management, I asked, in my management career, I. I asked my team, you know, certain things, what would they like, what would they like to see? And they were. The answers were things that there was no way I could deliver on. So I. It's like, give it context. Let it. Let them know that you know what you're, what you're interested in and what you can and can't do. And then. And then ask and then listen, I was also reflecting on the pandemic in New York. And I'm, you know, I'm in New York Pretty much 25% of my time these days. And the best part of the pandemic in New York, for me, no traffic, because it was. I was, I was in Manhattan, right? And it's like, wow, I can actually get through town without a problem. Crazy.

Well, no one wants me to drive in New York. No, you know, congestion pricing and subways. And all that stuff, but sometimes you gotta drive. Yeah, that's just how it is.

Yeah. So I don't actually have a car in New York. I. I do either Uber or taxi, or more often than not, I learned how to use the subway system, and it's excellent. Yeah.

And for two nights, that way, all the time. I love it.

You know, there's 2.90 you can get anywhere. Right. And I think in. In the San Francisco Bay area, which is where I'm based most of my time, it is like public transit is based on. Well, you went from this stop to that stop, and so that costs this much.

It's like.

It is. I love that you can get on the subway, and if you go one stop, it's $2 and 90 cents, and if you go 14 stops, it's dollars and 90 cents. And if you. I just. I love that idea because I think it encourages people to use the subway. Right.

Well, I mean, the thing is, is you need people to use the subway. Right. If you. If people stop using the subway, then the subway financially doesn't work. You can't repair it, you can't maintain it, and you end up, you know, in somewhat of the position. I mean, MTA is in, you know, tough financial shape. A lot of it because of the remote work and, you know, people not needing to use the subway. So it creates financial ripple effect that needs to be solved. Because. And I. I personally, I. I hope everyone has flexibility to work from home when they have a cold or something, but for the most part, will come into the office because I think the human interaction, you end up being way more productive. And. And we all need that social piece.

Yes, yes. And that's the. That's the balance to AI again, is there's. There's a humanity that's. That we need to keep. Are you good at chess? No. Really?

Because the idea of chess.

Yeah.

But, you know, this is an area where I just. I'm a little too impulsive. So my. My son Trey and I played quite a bit for a while, and he would just destroy me. So you'd think I should be better at Scrabble.

You're better at Scrabble. Words, words. Okay. The. And the reason I ask, obviously, is that, is that, you know, as you're describing economic ripple effects, you know, you are thinking three, four, five steps ahead of. If we do this. Yeah, right. It's a syllogistic tree. If this, then that, and. And if this, then that, and if that, then that. And, you know, that's either good or bad. So. And then the ripples from there, like one action doesn't. Doesn't just affect one thing.

Yeah, it's great. I mean, I think if I played a little bit more, I might get good at it. But if you are, you know, the last probably 20 games I played, I got dispatched with pretty readily. And so that, you know, takes the fun out of it.

It does. It does. It's got to be a challenge. Scrabble. It is awesome. All right. Anything that we didn't cover that you were thinking we would or hoping we would?

No, this has been, this has been a lot of fun. We kind of went places where I didn't think we would, so it was good.

It's. That's what I love to do, is to go places where it's sort of like, oh, it's not just a. It's not just a. It's what I call an interrogation interview. I have this question now. You answer the next question. No, the next question. So, so serious. I like having conversations and I, you know, I always like having conversations with you.

So. Same here.

Thank you. Thank you. Awesome. Well, with that, we will wind up this. This particular episode. This is one Sharp sword. Heather Mulligan, thank you for being with us.

Thank you.

Alrighty. Heather Mulligan has been my guest on One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters most. Heather is the CEO and president of the New York State business Council. I AM Wayne Purnell, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, your host, guide and coach on this journey. And we will see you again next time. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening to One Sharp Sword cutting through to what matters most with outfluencer Dr. Wayne Purnell. For more information, please go to OneSharpsWord.com.