Interview with Hesha Abrams

Welcome to One Sharp Sword cutting through to what Matters Most with your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the breakthrough success coach and your powerful presence mentor.

Welcome to One Sharp Sword cutting through to what Matters Most. I'm your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the exponential success coach and the president of Dynamic Leader Incorporated today. Holy cow. I am so excited. We're going to talk about conflict. And why is that exciting? Well, I have one of the world's most renowned, competent master conflict attorneys, a mediator, a negotiator, a deal maker, and she's been doing this for decades. She's worked with some major organizations that, that you would recognize. I'm going to read Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook, IBM, Verizon, and so, so many, many more international multinational companies. I am not going to go on and on, because I want to bring her on. This is Hesha Abrams. Welcome to One Sharp Sword.

My pleasure. Thank you.

This is awesome. So why is conflict so exciting? It's because the outcomes are so amazing. Right? That's. That's where you live these days, is in that world of. Of conflict, mediation and contention.

So, yeah, and most people, when you say conflict, it's like saying, let's have a root canal without anesthesia or let's have a colonoscopy without anesthesia. Depends on which end you're going from. So everybody hates conflict. Nobody goes, yay, conflict, opportunity. It's not the way it works. We avoid it like the plague. Then the question is, how can we play it better? How can we win at it? How can we not let it be so stressful? And there are shortcuts. I like to use the analogy of normally people are like cavemen and cave women. We're just shoving food in our mouths. I want to say, here's a fork, here's a spoon, here's a knife, here's chopsticks. There's so many ways to cut through it, to make it not so miserable and to get to better outcomes. I have spent decades in the trenches of human conflict. So I have had a laboratory to experiment and find what actually works, not what should work, not what theoretically sounds good. What's not win, win, problem solving.

Yay.

But real life stuff, when you're dealing with hard things, difficult people, what actually works.

Yeah. So the whole idea of winning is part of what causes conflict. Right? Because if somebody wins, then somebody loses. And my guess is that somehow you have found a way of cutting through ego, which is what causes the I want to win kind of thing. Can we back up the clock. This is part of what I. Part of what I love to do with my guests is to learn a little bit more about you. You didn't wake up one day and go, I am going to be an attorney. I am going to specialize in multinational companies in. In contention.

I had a. I had a challenging childhood, a lot of difficulties. And so as a result of that, had a lot of therapy. And from that therapy and from that growth, I learned better, healthier ways of handling things. And I was always told that I talk too much. And. And so I needed to be a lawyer. I went, okay, fine, I'll be a lawyer. You know, I liked law school. It was interesting to me. And I became a lawyer, a business litigator. And in one week, I won a case that I really should have lost. I just kind of out lawyered the other side, and it wasn't really right. And then I lost a case that I should have won. That was a little pro bono eviction thing. And it caused a crisis of confidence in me. It just said, wait a minute, this cannot be how it is. This is not okay. And I found mediation. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. You talk to people for a living, you solve problems, you work out deals. It just absolutely appealed to me. And what I'd found is that most of the basic mediation stuff is too much on the win. Win. Problem solving. Oh, yay, yay. We're all going to be nice and listen to each other and talk. And what I say is 10% of the time, let's say even 20% of the time, that works, which is great. That means 80% of the time, it fails. And why does it fail? Like you said, ego. Someone's a narcissist, someone's a power grabber, someone's afraid, someone's a bully, someone is dumb. Someone wants to take what you have or you want to take what they have. I mean, that's called real life. So I have techniques that work when it's nice and it's lovely, and Wayne, you and I like each other, so we can talk. And the more techniques are when I hate your guts or I'm threatened by you, or I'm challenged by you, or I'm afraid of you. What do I do then? And honestly, that's the majority of conflict. And there are ways to handle it. And I call it warm pieces and soft peace. So you always go for, try a warm piece. That's lovely. But if you can't, a cold peace and a secession of hostilities. We're going to call that good.

Okay, so when you say peace, it's as in peace calm, which you also have a book we'll be talking about which is say what the title is

holding the Calm the secret to resolving Conflict and diffusing Tension. And it's been Amazon bestseller, which is very exciting.

It is exciting.

I made it a short, little simple, inexpensive paperback. Because these should not only be for professionals, these should be for everybody. They should teach the stuff in schools and in churches and synagogues and mosques and temples, in family relations, in co worker relations, in supplier business, vendor relations. Anywhere where somebody has an ego, bumper car, ego can happen. So how do we avoid and prevent which is obviously best and then how do we deal with it when we can't?

Nice. You know, one of the things when I work with corporations prior to them having conflict, usually what happens is we're working on a forward strategy. One of the things I do, two things that are, that are key prior to even working on the strategy. One is identifying values and do we have shared values? And the other is when we disagree because we probably will. What are the working agreements? What are the agreements we have to bring? Disagreement.

I like that you step.

Thank you. You step in after those have been blown out. Correct. Because someone's ego has been heightened because someone's, because someone wants more. But that goes back to ego. Right. Wanting more is either fear living in lack, which is fear, or it's ego wanting to be seen as greater than. So can you talk about some of your bigger cases, what you've had to face and how, how you reach agreement? Maybe talk about what causes disagreement to a little bit, to some extent. And then how do you reach agreement? And is agreement where everybody wins or is agreement where everybody walks away going, well, it wasn't exactly what I wanted,

but okay, it's all of it. There's times for a fast food burger and there's time for a five course meal. It's the exact same thing with conflict and with relationships. And what happens is people have unrealistic expectations. If you and I are in conflict, it would be lovely if we ended up wanting to go out and have a drink together and become friends. But that's relatively unrealistic. I'd like to start out with just, I don't hate you anymore or you don't frighten me anymore or you're not in my way anymore. So sometimes.

Let me pause you there because what I've seen is when somebody goes, you don't frighten me anymore. Whether that's expressed or whether that is through posture. Because I've worked with, I've worked with hundreds of women who have found their voices. I've worked with, you know, hundreds of men who have crisis of confidence. Even in a. A very leadership role, a top leadership role. There's, there's still that. And, and when you get a person to the place of the. You don't have power over me anymore, the other person tends to push back harder, don't they?

Not necessarily. It depends on the balance of power. If you've got somebody who has more power than you, then that is true. If you've got somebody that has less power than you, they might run away. Because remember, bullies don't want someone to stand up to them. Bullies want easy targets. But the real question is, how can you do it? You can be shrill and demanding and argumentative, or isn't it better to just move it out of the way? So can I give a quick little example?

I love it. Yeah. And then I'm going to share martial arts with you.

Exactly. Aikido is a terrific metaphor for this, isn't it?

It's great.

Absolutely terrific. But I'd like to give this analogy first because everybody thinks that logic, reason and rationale help solve problems. And I'm here to tell you no, they do not. No, they do not think about anybody you've ever had a disagreement with. You explain it. You give them facts, you give them information. 95% of the time it doesn't persuade them at all. And yet we keep doing that. But that's not how the human brain works. So let me give our listeners a really interesting example.

This is awesome.

Perfect apples, 25 cents each. How many would you buy? I don't know. I need a couple of apples. I'll buy two apples. Four for a dollar, you get a 35% boost in sales. Now that's just stupid. It doesn't make any sense at all because those apples could rot and you throw them away. That sociology, psychology, behavior works across every gender, every socioeconomic group, every ethnic group. It's a human being thing. You want an extra 10% boost in sales limit. Two, you're not going to get my apples, even though my apples may rot. This is the other piece. There's a guy named Daniel Kahneman and Amos Twersky, big behavioral psychologist. They've written a bunch of neuropsychologists psychology books which are fabulous. But they won a Nobel prize in economics by proving that Adam Smith's rational man doesn't really exist. That People make economic decisions behaviorally. And one of the most interesting things that they proved was that the huge percentage of people, like 80% don't want to win. They just don't want to lose. So imagine going into a negotiation or a conflict situation thinking the other person's pushing for something and they want to win. But if you hit it from the other angle of how do they not want to lose? Oh, my God. Options open up. So many choices open up and available avenues for discussion. And just because someone tells me they want something doesn't make it true. That just means that they've taken that a position that they think will satisfy an underlying interest. So I'm going to ignore those. I'm just going to deal with the underlying interest. Maybe I'll find a better solution that's more palatable to me. And in every single case, you asked for examples from me. In every single case I have, every single one, the plaintiff says, I want $100 million. And the defendant says, Here's 100,000. You're not settling that with logic, reason, and rationale. All the techniques that I am teaching, and I'm sharing in the book, work between spouses, they work with teenagers, they work with people in the C suite, they work with co workers, they work with people at church. Because I don't care if you have on a $5,000 suit or a $5 planel shirt. There's an ego inside. And the ego says, either I want to be right, or more likely, I don't want to be wrong. How are we going to fix this? And when you have these skills, who's got the power in that interchange? You do.

So good. So good. This is. You know the. The martial arts axiom I was going to bring up is enter when pulled, turn when pushed.

Say that again. That's good.

Why, thank you. Enter when pulled, turn when pushed. So when I do communication work.

Nice.

Nice to you, Right? So someone. Someone is like, the best way out of a tug of war is not to pick up the rope.

Exactly.

Right. But if someone pulls you in and says, you know, girl, you suck, right? You've got a couple of options. One is you step in and you go, could you, like, tell me how I suck? Like, tell me all about that, Right? So you enter, and now you've taken over that person's center, right? They're going, grrr. And you're going, curious. Interesting. And the other. The other is turn when pushed. It's. It's like if. If I called you a purple spotted leprechaun you would go, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Like, that's not me. Like, you turn and what. But if I called you a B word, you go, well, why'd you call me that? Well, does that fit? Like, what's the difference? So turn when push. Someone goes, you're a this. And you go, not me. Like, it doesn't. That. That's your opinion.

That's funny. That's funny. That's funny. I like, you know, occasionally. The problem is, and this is the thing, is that we're going to come up today, you and I, with a lot of good trips, ticks, good trip tricks and tips for people. I have ton of my book. You have a ton in your books. But this is the problem. When you're upset or when you feel threatened, the prefrontal cortex, which is right behind the forehead, as you know, shuts down the amygdala. The tiny little fear and negativity center in the back of the brain, the reptilian brain, goes yowza. And when that's going yowza, you're not always thinking easy, you know, like, I'd love to someone said you suck. I'd want to say, let's see how many synonyms we could come up with for suck, right? Bad. What else would it be? But what I want to urge everybody to think of is when you go into any kind of tension, forget conflict. Just 100% of conflict always starts with tension. And the tension can be, you suck, or it can be mm, which is actually worse because you don't know what's going on. So it's a hundred percent, starts with tension. If you can catch it at the tension, oh, for God's sakes, that's so much easier. And all conflict ends up being a power dynamic, every single one of it. And so when you get into that power play with someone, it's a lot harder. So what you're, you know what your acronym was, which I really liked, is very much taking power back. So if I'm in an interchange with you, I don't care what it is and it's getting tense and. Or it leads to actual conflict. If I can keep my sense of power, I know skills. I now have resources and my amygdala calms down so I can make more choices. And that's one of the benefit of the reason why I wrote this book. You know, I've got 20 techniques in 20 chapters filled with stories and anecdotes and. And what I tell people is, you know, The Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, the Jewish Torah, everything teaches in stories. Why? I can just give you the lesson, right? Well, we don't learn that way. So there are very often that someone says or does something, and I'll say, may I share a story with you? Nobody ever says no. And then you tell them a story. And every story in my book is designed to be done in 30 seconds to a minute. It's all poignant, and it works every single time. I only put one in there if I've done it dozens of times. And I know it works because rather than say to somebody, you're trying to grab power or you're being childish and immature, I tell a story where they, on their own go, and they can extrapolate it themselves. It's a fantastic technique. And I tell people, take my stories, I give them to you, take them, memorize them. And then when you're in a difficult situation to where I don't know what to say, I don't know what to do, you remember a story and go, well, let me share a story with you, or may I? You always ask, may I share a story with you? Nobody says no. You know, and I have a couple of other one fun little things I want to share with our, with our listeners today because I want people to walk away from this saying, hot darn, I got some new magic beans in my pocket that I can use.

It's huge, right? The, it's called an amygdala hijack, right? So when your amygdala takes over, everything else shuts down, because that's fight, flight, and freeze or freeze. And usually people are in fight or freeze in hugely contentious situations. So having a tool belt, having tools at the ready that are part of you, it's going to make everything easier because the freeze part allows you to go, oh, I'm not actually immobilized. I have these tools, right? So the, the stories in your book are, are going to be amazing.

And it's gold.

It is gold. Wonderful tools. The idea of asking permission, right? You talked about this being a power dynamic. If I ask permission to tell you a story, it's different than, you know what that is, right? Labeling and, and, and the, the shift or the. It is a power play, right? I'm smarter than you. Hey, can I have permission? Like, could I. Is it okay if I tell you a story?

It's also, Would you like, Would you like. That's a power sentence.

It is.

I'm feeling overpowered by you right or wrong is irrelevant. When the amygdala is triggered, there is no right or wrong. There is only what I feel. And you are never going to convince me. And think about, most people have been raised with some kind of trauma in their lives. Like, I just met you today, right? I don't know your backstory. Maybe there was an alcoholic stepfather that beat you, maybe someone abandoned someone, maybe you didn't have money. Maybe you, maybe, maybe, maybe you don't know. Everyone walks around with some level of scarring and you really don't know. So if you just make the assumption that there are tender spots and if somebody gets triggered, you hit a tender spot. And you know what? I'm not your shrink. I don't need to know what it is. I don't need to fix it. All I need to do is back away and give you some room to breathe so I don't push the hard spot. And quite frankly, that's just being a kind, decent person is all that is. The fact that it's effective is just really icing on the cake.

Well, this is huge because that is, that's like where you're talking is that's my sweet spot in working with people, right? So when people get triggered, that, that is where I go in. And it's not to poke. It's not, it's to free people up, free for you in your work. It's incredible to be able to hold space for another person. Most people are used to, oh, you're an attorney. That means, you know you're going to try and run me over. And it puts the other person in the fighting not to lose place. Y really interesting, really interesting that you said that because I work with people to shift the mindset from are you playing, you playing to win? Are you playing not to lose? And in their own life, too many people do say, well, I just don't, you know, I don't, I don't want to lose what I've worked so hard to have.

Right.

And right. And it's fear based.

So the corollary to that too is I call it I don't want to be a putz. Right. And, and see this is interesting. In every study that's been done of things that make people afraid, the number one, number one is speaking before a group. Number two is death. Number three is spiders. Number four is snakes. So speaking before a group is worse than death, spiders and snakes. And the reason why is because if you speak before a group, you have a chance to be embarrassed. And the idea of being embarrassed, you'd rather die than have that happen to you. So often when someone says it's winning or losing, what it really is is, I don't want to be a schmo. And I define winning by what the other guy got or didn't get. And I don't want to be treated unfairly, and I don't want to be a schmo. So that's the apples, 25 cents each thing is seeing where somebody feels okay about what the deal is is often very, very important. And anyway, we're going to get into some techniques and stuff later, but I want people to be able to see there's so many ways you can have power in a situation where someone's trying to harm you. Take power from you, out, negotiate you. You take power back, you change the entire dynamic. You think we're playing football, but oh, no, no, no. Au contraire, mon cher. We're going to play soccer or golf or tennis.

Badminton. Hey. Right, Exactly.

It's just still. It's still a ball. Yeah, we're gonna. How we're going to change it. And the more you have these things that you're ready, the calmer your amygdala is because. And that's the reason I named the book holding the calm. You know, I was a little hesitant to do that because I don't want to sound all Zen and calm, because it's not. It's a book for intense situations. But never in the history of calming down has anyone ever calmed down by being told to calm down. And so the police officers are trained in this. You don't walk into a situation saying, calm down, calm down. And so why? Well, because when the person is riled up, their amygdala is going. When the amygdala is going, it feels powerless. So the last thing you want is someone else to come in and say, whoa, dude, you're out of power. But I'm in power, and I'm going to tell you what to do. Even if it's take a deep breath, calm down, it actually is counter to what you want people to do. So what I do for my. I'm a human. I get triggered. I can get upset for my own self. That's my own mantra. I'm holding the calm, I'm holding the calm. I'm holding the calm. That took two seconds. And what it says to my amygdala is, I have power, I have skills, I have abilities. Let's find one. Let's find what we're going to do. And let's choose our response. And I tell people to do that because then you create a moat around your reactivity to where you can make a choice. What outcome do I want to achieve? How do I want to handle this person? What's the best thing I can do? Which one gives you information and data and help and tools? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what it does is it gives you power. I'm not powerless. I got options. I got choices. I got tools. I am holding the calm for myself, and I can do it for you. Let's say you and Joe there are getting a big fight. I can hold the calm for you guys. That's what I do as a mediator all the time. You can do it for yourself. You can do it for a kid. This works great with teenagers, by the way, who have hormones drop kicking into their poor little bodies, you know? Anyway, I digress.

But I love all of this. I'm sitting here as you're talking, I'm smiling so big and so many concepts here. So many concepts.

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One of the things like, you've touched on so many key, key words. My first book is called choosing your power. Right. And so it's about choice. It's about, I have power. Oh, right. Remember that. Like, nobody can take it from you. You have to abdicate. And so don't abdicate. Don't give it up. The other. I mean, you. You've made so many other amazing statements. I am hoping our. Our audience members get this. I'm hoping you get this. So many key pieces and we're going to go into technique. One of the things I'm going to guess. Can I just guess that one of your techniques is to identify the emotion of the other person?

Indeed.

Okay. Yeah, so we'll talk about that. I love the idea, by the way of holding, like, you can borrow my calm.

I Love that. That's beautiful. Thank you. You can borrow my calm. Love that.

So as a mediator, you know, you. Right, you come in. So I mean, I will often tell my clients, you know, when they're at the place of right on the brink of that next level of success and they're not sure, it's like, you can borrow my belief in you. And. Right.

And so I love that. That's great.

You as the expert, you know, as a mediator, you're sitting there going, look, this may get to a boiling point on one side or the other. You guys can borrow my calm because. Right. And. And there you are. And. And sometimes it's implicit, sometimes it's implied, like just by your being. Let's talk about it.

You know, I like to always say that too, because I don't want people to think this is touchy feely because I live in a carnivorous world. I mean, all the clients are very intense and are very aggressive. And I've done every kind of case. I mean, I've been doing this three decades. So I've done from little whose roommate's cat peed on the rug, you know, all the way up to wrongful death and asbestos and breast implants and giant class actions and securities and mergers and intellectual property and copyrights and trademarks and patents. Okay. I mean, it's like, you know, lions, tigers and bears. Oh, my. You know, I've done all of it. And the thing is, is for you, chapter one of my book is speak into the ears that are hearing you. Some people are touchy feely. They want the relationship stuff, okay? That's how you talk to them. Some people would look at you like, get away from me. What is this touchy feely crap? This is just money or this is just business. Okay? Why, why would I go to somebody who is lactose intolerant and say, what is wrong with you? Why aren't you eating ice cream? Everyone likes ice cream. What's wrong with you? As opposed to taking the diagnostic step to say he's lactose intolerant. So before I speak, I speak into the ears that are hearing me. I look. And to give another analogy, because I love analogies, there's a bomb in the times in the town square. That guy waddles out in his Michelin suit. You don't just start cutting wires. Diagnosis. Is it a pressure switch? Is it a chemical switch? Is the remote control what's there? So when somebody is talking, we all know we should let people vent and we should listen, blah, blah, Blah. Okay, get past all that. What are you listening for? It's an imposter tool. If I'm listening to you, I'm going to know you're either touchy feely or your data mathematically oriented. You want relationships or you want facts. You are a thinker or you're a feeler. And then if I want to get real fancy, I can get into your auditory, visual or kinesthetic learners, which I explain completely in the book and is not hard to do. You know, it's not hard to do. I see what you're saying, I hear what you're saying, I like what you're saying. It's all about verbs. So in five minutes of listening to you, and honestly, because I do this all the time, in two minutes of listening to you, I can diagnose so much about you and frame my response. First of all, it's just respectful. And the fact that it happens to be crazy effective is just again, wonderful, wonderful. Icing on the cake.

This is a great way of, like, I will always bridge some of the leadership lessons along the way. And this is communication I'll bridge to. You could use this at home, you could use this at work, you could use this in the community. You know, if there's a disagreement about what somebody put in the coffee you ordered, like, oh, did you make it wrong? It's even that, right? And so it's really listening. And again, it's interwind pulled. It's the, It's a matter of being in that flow with another person rather than making that other person join your flow.

Yeah, right. Have fun. When I was, when I was learning this, I took basic trainings and read the basic books and I went, this doesn't sound very effective to me. So I did hospice training, so people die. Rubber meets the road. I did suicide crisis phone work where you really gotta listen. And I've got whole chapters in the book all about that and how you develop that level of listening. But one of the things I would say to our listeners, just for grins and giggles, I went to Walmart and sat by the return desk and just listened. It is hilarious what people will say and what they will do. And you immediately be able to tell the shoplifters, the liars, people trying to get away with something, people who just don't know how to communicate and explain themselves. The diagnostic ability you'll get from an hour of just sitting at the return desk at Target or Walmart is amazing because then once you learn how to do it, it's like driving Remember when you were 16? Oh my God. 10 and 2 blinker break gas, and you were all freaked out about it, and now you just get in the car and you just go. The more you practice this stuff, it just is inculcated in you to where something happens like a. I'm holding the calm. I'm holding the calm. I'm holding the calm.

Love it.

How am I going to handle this? What am I going to do now? Who's got the power?

You do. Yeah, I think it's a, A beautiful exercise. You know, Chris Voss is right. Known for his books on never split the difference. He's the. He's out there. He's in the FBI hostage negotiator. His. His training was to do suicide prevention work. He was, he was challenged by, you know, he wanted to move up through the ranks. And he was challenged by his supervisor. And he was the only one out of his unit that chose to do what was suggested. And he became, he became really good at it. So just getting the skill of compassion, getting the skill of listening for what's not being said, listening for the breaks, listening for the breathing, It's. That is magical, isn't it? I am.

Can I, Can I add one quick thing that I want people to have because I.

All of this is about what you can bring. Please, please.

So people will often say, like just as an example, well, that wouldn't work with my cousin Fred, or that wouldn't work with my boss. And I want to say, yes, it would. You just haven't used the right bait on the hook yet. Haven't not using the right approach. So don't keep using the wrong approach. Try something different. So let me give a couple of sentence stems to everyone listening. And let's just assume it's Thanksgiving dinner for Christmas dinner.

Love this.

And you got a crazy uncle who just says weirdo nasty stuff. And either he does it cluelessly or he does it because he knows he can get a rise out of you and he wants to poke it and it kind of ruins the whole dinner. Well, you can't sit there silent and you can't fight back. So you want to know what works every single time. It's perfect. You look at the person and you say, you know what I like about you? Guess what? He stops talking. There's a pin drop at the table. Nobody speaks. And choose your verb, by the way. What I like about you, what I respect about you, what I admire about you, what I love about you, what I enjoy about you. Pick your verb. Whatever is Authentic to you. And then you say something validating and true. That just shuts everything down. Your passion, your curiosity, your determination, your commitment, your curiosity. Those are all things you can say to anybody. And after that, literally, you will see someone go like this, like a fish. I mean, they're ma. They don't know what to say and do. Someone just gave you a Zet and you went. You know what I admire about you? Your passion. What's the retort to that? There's no retort. They sit back and everyone else around the table is going to look at you and go, masterfully.

Thank you.

Yes, masterfully done. And I have done that. I cannot tell you the number of times I have done that in all kinds of situations. And it's. I'm telling you, it's magic beans in your pocket. It's amazing. But you got to practice it so that you don't say it with an edge. If you. You can say the night, you can say, oh, I really like you. And you can say it dripping with sarcasm. So you have to be able to practice doing it without an edge so that it's neutral emotionally. People don't know. They don't know what to do with it. They don't know what to happen. And this is what happens at work or families, too. But at work, no one's going to say, oh, my God, Wayne, you really know how to hold the calm. No, they're just going to say, you're effective. You get along with everyone. You seem to resolve problems. You seem to get things done. Your managerial quality, that's what people will end up saying because they don't understand and see it anyway. But when you know how to do it, all of a sudden you just know how to glide through all the problems.

Very subtle and very, very powerful because it's so effective. That's awesome. I'm keeping track of our time together. I know that we both have hard stops in a little bit, so I want to jump into more. Like any more tips, techniques, tricks, stories that you can offer that become tools that we can easily each practice today.

I would love to do that. I mediated. I've mediated so many cases. My God. But the secret recipe for Pepsi. And it was fascinating what happened in that case. And I can't really tell more because it's, you know, it's confidential. But there was so much about how people value things and so much of about, I'm important. No, I'm important. No, I'm important. No, I'm important. And how you do that. So earlier you said, oh, you try to figure out what someone's feeling. I want to give a corollary for that, because not everyone listening has the time, skill set, or disposition that you and I have to be able to do that. So we're going to have listeners go, well, I can't even do that with my wife or my husband. What are you asking of me? So I want to give you an easy way to do it. Let's say somebody launches at you. I don't care what it is. You did this, and you don't do that. And I'm mad about this. I don't care what it is. But we all know it's an assault. Boom. Right? Instead of responding to it, what you do is you name the emotion and don't worry about getting it right, because they will tell you, well, Wayne, you seem very frustrated. I'm not frustrated. I'm angry. Okay, you're angry. Who's got the win there? I can see why you're angry. Or I don't understand. Would you explain that to me? Now, all of a sudden what you're doing is you're validating. And I have a theory. You know, sunflowers are my favorite flowers because they are heliotropic. They turn toward the sun wherever the sun is. I think that we are validationotropic as human beings. We turn toward that which validates and appreciates us. That's why social media is so toxic and all the small chat rooms, because people go into sound and echo chambers where they're listened to, they're heard, they're validated, and not told. They're wrong or questioned or challenged. And then that's when it can really become toxic. But for you to look at someone else who their amygdala is triggered. They got an arm full of junk. You gotta get that junk to lay down for a moment. And the best way to do it is, I see you, I hear you. And the best way to do that is to name the emotion. And if you get it wrong, you seem sad. I'm not sad. I'm frustrated or I'm pissed off. Okay, but now I know, and now we talk about it, and now I turn on my give a darn meter. So you earlier, you used the word compassion. Compassion is lovely. And that's the A plus level. We strive for that, but sometimes we can't get there because I think you're a jerk or you're nasty or you're hateful or. Or, or. Or. Or whatever label I want to put on you. So I can't be compassionate because I don't understand what the hell you're saying, but I can turn my give a darn meter on. And once I'm doing that, I see you as a person and beyond whatever stuff you're spouting, I can't tell you the number of times people will back away from a stupid position. I don't mean it that way. It came out harsher than I wanted to say. You know, a little bit of grace goes a very, very, very long way. And this is all just part of the stories and the approach on how to do some of the stuff that I wrote about in holding the Calm. And I want to give everybody one more analogy that's going to stick with people will. They won't necessarily remember everything you and I say, but they're going to remember our stor analogies. I tease people that it's like spaghetti sauce. You drip it on the counter, you wipe it up with a wet sponge, no big deal. You leave it overnight, you're scraping it off with a knife, you leave it three or four months or three or four years, and it's old and moldy and nasty. And that, my friends, is conflict. And so the question is, we all know to wipe the spaghetti sauce up when it's wet. We know that. So why don't we do it? Well, I'm hoping it'll go away. I'm hoping you didn't really hear that. I don't know how to do it. Oh, for God's sakes. I'm afraid of making it worse. So we don't wipe the spaghetti sauce up when it's wet. These holding the calm techniques help you do that. And one of the greatest things you can do when you've made a mistake, because you're human, you're going to make mistakes. It's going to come out the wrong way. You're going to say the wrong thing, you're going to do the wrong thing. You're tired, you're hungry, you're angry, you weren't paying attention. You're human. The number one thing you can do to get out of trouble. You know what? I didn't handle that like I wanted to. I apologize. May I have a do over? Who says no to that? Nobody says no to that. Can I have a do over? You know, that works fantastic with power dynamic situations. Teenager, kid, underling, working underneath you, A lower power person who feels not powered. It's the best way to say, I'm going to give you power. I acknowledge You, I see you. I don't think I handled that the way I should have or I wanted to, or I didn't handle it the best way. However you want to say it, may I have a do over and try to do better. What actually happens is it becomes more bonding, more connecting because you take someone by surprise. Because no one ever apologizes. No one ever says I screwed up or I didn't do it right. They'll say things like, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Well, I didn't mean to do it. Why are you so sensitive? That's how we do apologies, which stink. It's terrible. But you can go. We see someone's face. When you say something and you see someone's face face, you know they didn't receive it well. You don't have to be, I mean, you and I are experts in, in body language to our listeners. You don't have to be an expert in body language. Most people don't hide it very well. You will see it on their faces. Then you just go, oh, for God, I, I, I, can I have a do over? I don't think I handled that right. It didn't come out the way I wanted it to come out. Nobody says no to that, you know?

You know, like again, I'm sitting here smiling, I'm taking notes and, and here's what's amazing about that, right? The empowerment piece is multi layered. Every, and I'm hoping that as our, as an audience member, you are listening to this because everything that he has shared has been multi layered. Like there's so much in it. So please go back and, and listen to this again. Talking about empowerment is really about taking responsibility and accountability. When you're in a leadership role and you take accountability, you're not only empowering the other person by making that request, may I have a do over? You are also modeling the culture that you wish to see by saying, I'm not so powerful or so great that I can't say that I've made a mistake. How amazing is that? Right now you're saying, okay, I have a power position and I invite you to share it with me.

Yeah, and you have permission to make mistakes too.

Exactly.

You know, but the key is not not making the mistake. The key is not owning it and fixing it. Make mistakes, otherwise you're not, you're not growing, you're not challenging, you're not doing anything. But for God's sakes, own it. Don't blame someone else.

Own it. Learn from it. Yeah. So good. So good. This is awesome. Holding the comb. I love that you've named your book that. And I love that that that's a technique, right? It's like, I can hold the comb. One of the things that I teach, and this goes along with exactly what you've been teaching, is also looking for options. And looking for options comes in the phrase, what's available to me now. So I used to teach martial arts for about 30 years, actually through a parks and rec department. And one of the things I would teach is what's available to me now. And now. And now.

Excellent.

And now. Because every moment, with every breath, you have new choices.

Excellent. Beautiful. Beautiful.

And so it's like, well, what's available to me now? Oh, I have come. I actually still have my power, right? So I can hold the cone. I love that. I love, I love the concepts of your book. I will be getting it just because it's like, it's so congruent with everything I believe. And the more you talk, the more I'm sitting here, like, applauding inside, like, yay. I'm so glad. I'm so glad to have you here. So.

And if I can ask people, you know, I. I am a full time mediator, so I work all the time. So I didn't write my book to be a consultant or a speaker or anything. I mean, I'll do some of that, but I really just want to get this out there for people. And so what I do is I have a webpage holdingthecom.com and I post all kinds of free stuff. I do one minute videos. I will post this podcast. I'm gonna. I enjoy you and what you're doing. I want to publicize you and your books because I think, you know, high tide raises all ships. And what I would invite people to do is connect with me on LinkedIn, because I post every day on LinkedIn a short little tidbit of something. And I find that, you know, there's gravity in the world, right? That's why things fall down. And that's why as we age, you know, our faces are even falling down a little bit, you know, But I think there's an emotional gravity. Why is it easier to be sad than to be happy? Why is it easier to be frustrated than optimistic? There's our universe, our world, our social media, our jobs, our businesses have a downward pull, and so you have to counter it. That's how you build muscle. And so I do that for myself. I'm constantly doing little inspirational things or little insights or how can I lift myself up? And so I post every day and it's five, you know, like 12 seconds. Like it's an easy thing for people to look at. And then this way, keeping your energy up. Oh, I didn't know about that or I didn't think about this. And sometimes it's interesting, weird stuff like, you know why some people don't like cilantro because it tastes like soap. And other times it's geopolitical stuff that's going on in the world. So I invite people to connect just for all of us. Lift up, lift up, lift up. Because the world is crazy and those of us who can bring light, it's incumbent upon us to do so.

I love this. Yes, please. So for the audience members, as you're listening to this Hessa Abrams. H E S H A is her first name. Abrams with no habit. A B R A M S. Yeah.

Thank you. And it's holdingthecom.com is my web page. I have a holding the Com Facebook page. I'm on LinkedIn and the book is available everywhere, you know, Amazon and you know, well I'll be picking it up today.

So that's, that's great.

Thank you.

And your, your, the links to your social and holding the calm.com will be in, in the show notes. So yeah, please, that's. I encourage everybody to, to get Hesh's book because these concepts plus stories are so valuable. So valuable.

And I'm so glad to everybody listening. It's almost a little bit like we're preaching to the choir. And you know, everyone listening to this is thinking, I know five people that need this, you know, because they're not the ones listening. But that's how, you know, a thousand mile journey begins with a single step. And those of us that are doing it can. And then we disseminate it out and share it out and that's it. That kind of behavior and we can take back the sanity in our life. I think because so many people are walking around as the walking wounded, you know, we are more grace we have, the better. It is

so true. We need to be that beacon of light for others. And, and luckily, I mean the audience here, that's what they're doing here. That's, you know, that each, each of our listening and or viewing audience members are. They're going, I am a beacon.

And so yeah, you.

So take it in, take it in and share it out. Holding the Hessa Abrams, thank you so much for being here. This is amazing. Appreciate you.

My pleasure. It's been my pleasure to meet a kindred spirit. Thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you. This is one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most. My guest today was hessa Abrams. I'm Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the exponential success coach and the president of dynamic leader and your host here and so many other places. Thanks for being here. Listen to this again because there were tidbits that you probably missed. Please like it, please comment on it, and please share it because you know somebody who needs to hear this as well. We'll see you here next week.

Thank you for listening to one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most with your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, the breakthrough success coach and your powerful presence mentor.