Interview with Michael Roth

You're listening to One Sharp Sword cutting through to what Matters Most with outfluencer Dr. Wayne Purnell. Welcome to One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters Most. I'm your host, guide and coach on this journey, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell. With me today I have Michael Roth. He's a serial entrepreneur and co founder of a lead gen company but also ended up as the, I want to say CFO, but it's CRO.

That's right. Chief officer. Yeah.

Chief revenue officer at InvestCloud. We're going to find out more about InvestCloud. We're going to find out a lot about his journey. Leadership, change management. These are all pieces that have been integral to his growth and development. Leadership lessons coming. Stay tuned as we talk to Michael Roth. Michael, welcome to One Sharp Sword.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Wayne. I appreciate it.

Yeah, I love having you here. We, we were talking a little bit before I hit record. We did have such a good conversation a little while ago and it was, it was a pleasure then and I've been looking forward to having you on. So welcome back. Let's talk about, let's talk about Invest Cloud, what you're doing there as the chief revenues officer. Chief. I am tripping over that for some reason. Chief Revenue Officer. Yeah. Slow it down enough to say it, what that means because that's, that's like, I don't get the sense that that's like the, the passion spot for you. Although, although you're probably really good at it with growth, change management and kind of the serial entrepreneur mind being the CRO is sort of like guess and so talk a little bit about Invest Cloud. What are you doing there?

Well, you're coming in hot with the questions. I like it. I could tell what you, I could tell you're a psychologist and have some expertise there because you're reading between the tea leaves. Yeah. So, you know, I got to invest Palad as, you know, as you know, Wayne, through selling my company in 2020 to it. And so, you know, I didn't wake up one day and say I'm going to be a chief revenue officer. It came through. You know, my mindset has always been, you know, where, where can I add value? You know, that's really where I try to focus on. And we at Invest Cloud, you know, we're a pretty, you know, large firm in the financial technology space and we had a kind of a massive leadership transition in, you know, 2022. And you know, when you're InvestCloud like my firm was founded by a, you know, a serial serial entrepreneur who was a charismatic leader and founder. And so when you transition from that to kind of a private equity backed company and you kind of bring in more of leadership that I'll say is operational and is needed. Once you get to hit a certain scale and a certain level of, kind of brand reputation, when you make that transition, transition, you know, there, there, there's a huge shift that happens within the culture and you bring in new people who want that culture. You lose people who do not want their culture. Whether by choice or by force. You know, it kind of transitions into kind of where you're going and taking to the firm to the new maturation level. And so within that context, the CEO came to me and said, I need someone who can catch the ball. We need people who know the company well, who know elements of the company, who know the product, who know the sales, who know the communication and, and the role for the CRO at the time. You know, they, they needed someone to step in who had that expertise in that experience. And that's kind of how I got here. So it's not, it's not my lifelong dream, but you know, currently I'm just looking to add value where I can for the firm.

It's almost like an ops officer. I mean, you're doing so much, you've got your hands in in so many arenas. That's, that's kind of amazing.

It's been, it's been, you know, it's been good that the structure of the company and the way they've kind of evolved and supported the role it's been, you know, they've brought in a lot of people to help, you know, support that, that role. So the areas where I'm good at, I can focus on the areas that I'm not as skilled at, you know, I have support for.

That's so good. Love that you, you hit a hot button of mine, which is culture. Right. And the culture shift, I love that that is a huge focus of mine when I work with organizations because one of the things that happens is, especially in rapidly scaling organizations is that communication tends to implode. Like. Right. That communication from the top down is assumed. Well, I said it, or maybe even I thought it on my drive in. So why don't, you know. And so when the intent of here's where we're heading.

Right.

The intent of the vision isn't actually communicated. There are hiccups along the way. Now it's, it sounds like you, I Mean, with your background, you've got MBAs in leadership and in change management, which is pretty amazing. So with that, you are attuned to the culture, which I'm guessing has allowed you to do some organization development adjacent kind of activities.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think. And you know, I like your word attuned. It's funny, I was walking my wife, it's like last weekend, and I told her, I'm like, I think my whole life I've been in these, like, finance, like quantitative roles, but, but I'm an artist at heart and that's my sense.

Of you as well. That's awesome.

I'm 41. I think I just realized that. But when I say I'm an artist at heart, what I mean is like, you know, the things that, that really where I see, you know, a lot of value that you can actually like, you can always incrementally move the needle. But I think to actually move the needle at magnitude, you need to do that with leverage and force. And that comes through culture and it comes through a collective ecosystem where everything's working together and there's, there is a, like you said, an understanding that's cohesive to where you're going to. So that means everyone is running towards that and believes in it. If they don't, they're not part of that culture because if they were, they would be diminishing that culture. And so I think that is, you know, and I saw that firsthand when I had my startup in retirement, technology and we took our first round from a venture capital firm. The managing partner of that VC firm came in and asked, really pushed us to acquire and merge with another startup. And that merger was my first introduction into two massively different cultures. And although we still were small, you know, so bringing on that firm and trying to integrate their leaderships and their founding members into our ecosystem was very difficult because there was a sense of entitlement, right or wrong, of where they should be within that pecking order. And there were some that were extremely skilled that I wish would have stayed, some that stayed that I don't think were skilled. And it was a really good learning curve for me to understand how important culture was at the beginning. And it's okay if you're not the next chapter of the story. For some individuals, that's not a bad thing. It could be the best thing for them and for your company at the same time. But what I, what I get concerned about in cultures and what I've seen throughout, you know, I told you, you know, I went through seed funding, VC and private equity and I've been through multiple mergers globally with this company. And where I think the tipping point is, you know, with a culture is, you know, when you're leading towards something, you have to have right accountability towards that vision and towards that goal. But what can happen is there's a, there's a difference between a performance oriented meritocracy culture and a fear culture. It's a very fine tipping point because you want people to be driven to be accountable for what you need them to achieve in their role, whether they're the CEO or they're, you know, you know, a director of development. However, when it becomes, they're fearful to make a mistake and they're fearful to make a decision, all you create is this bottleneck company that actually only has one individual running to the goal and it's the CEO. And I think that leadership, whether you're the CEO or the C level or, you know, go down that pecking order is so important to kind of permeate the culture, to say, yeah, you're accountable. Yes, we expect excellence, but that doesn't mean excellence comes without failure. And I think that's one of the biggest learnings I've seen within leadership and culture.

Okay. Huge leadership points along the way. Like for every interview I do, I do pause to point things out and it's like, look at this, this is, this is huge. Right? So the idea of you didn't use the word vision, but everybody has to understand what is the vision, what are the values of the organization? And then they get to choose. Yes, I'm aligned, I'm in it, or no, it's not for me.

Thanks.

And that's good for both the individual and the organization. Because if, if somebody, if an individual is a, is doing it and just shows up for a paycheck, they're going to drag everybody else down.

Exactly.

And then fear based is. Yeah, I've never seen that work. It's common though.

It's very, it is. And I don't think it's, I don't even think it's intentional from the leaders. I think it just manifests itself because the leaders aren't, like you said, doing a good job of kind of communicating that vision all the way down. And I think it gets lost in translation. Now, some of it is intentional, but I think other areas where there, there needs to be a better job of filtering that language down.

Yeah. I worked, I worked at a place years and years and years ago early on, and it was one of those I will never be this kind of leader.

Yeah.

Lessons. And this was the, this was a gentleman who he, he called me in, sort of took me under his wing to teach me leadership. And he, you know, snapped his fingers at his secretary at the time, not even assistant, but right as. Yeah, it was back then. And he demanded a red file folder. And he, you know, was going to walk around the organization carrying this red file folder and he turns to me, goes, there's nothing in it, but they have to think there's something in it. Right. And it was like, oh my gosh. Right. So. So that was one of those I will never be that leader. Thank you for that lesson is because his whole thing, like to me that just said, wow, there's insecurity there. Right. That if you can't lead from an authentic position of this is where we're headed, this is why it matters, then, you know, and you're keeping people on edge. And that makes it about this one individual who needs to be seen as all powerful, which is. That's just frightening a little bit. So. But the idea of can you be accountable? Absolutely. I want, I want people on my team to be 100% accountable for what they do or don't do.

And don't you find. Haven't you found, you know, you know, some of the anxiety and is. Comes from these, from employees or from people involved in the teams is that they don't actually know what they're kind of afloat. They're like, just tell me, you tell.

Me what to do.

Tell me where, what, what I. Where my lane is, what to do, you know, and then I'll go. And I think that sometimes there's a lack of clarity to there and that that creates fear and anxiety.

That's where we start. Yeah. That's like when I work with an organization, that's where I start. Yeah. What are the values of the organization? What are your personal values? Are they aligned? Like with a leader? Are they aligned? Because if you're, if you're saying the values of the organization are this. But I, you know, it's fine, we could do that. But you're fully invested. That's gonna, that's gonna affect how you lead. So one, are you aligned as a leader? Are you aligned with the values of the organization? Two, do you have a vision that speaks to those values? Three, have you communicated what that is? And four is, have you checked well, there's four and five? Four is, have you checked that your communication actually landed. Are people getting what you said? Right. Like, are they. Are they actually. Oh, I understand that. And then are you leading through the vision? Are you catching people doing things from the vision and saying, I see you doing that. That matters so much. Right. Three elements of psychological safety. One is give people meaningful work. So when you catch them doing something that's aligned to the vision, say so. Right. Two, acknowledge it, which is the say so part of it. And three, give them hope. Right. That's the, the. That's the, the triad of psychological safety. Give them hope. Like, this is awesome. Your contribution matters so much. Look how much we're able to grow.

Yeah.

And you're a part of it. How amazing. Like being able to communicate that or being on the receiving end of that, how that. That's powerful. Right.

So have you seen that work best with, you know, do you have, like, assigned champions or, like, you know, I mean, like, is there roles around that or do you see it more? Just like the leader breathes it and it gets breathed by the next level down or like, how have you seen that? Best institution.

Yeah. So it has to start with the leader. You can't. You can't delegate or abdicate culture. Oh, someone else, you know, hr, you should take culture. It's like, that's fine. HR can be your. Your megaphone. But if you're in leadership, if you have a C title, chief, something title, your job is to live and model that leadership. Right. I mean, that's. That's huge. I don't imagine that you show up and at your organization at InvestCloud, and you're like, slouching and depressed and it's like, no, people need to see you. Like you care. You show up, you're ready to go. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. That makes you believable. That makes you a stronger leader.

That's good.

So, and, and that works as a parent. It works in peer groups. Doesn't matter, you know, if you're a teenager or if you're, you know, in. However old you are at this point. Whoever's listening to this, like, when you show up and you go, this is what I believe in, people will either align with you or they won't. And that's. That's good news. Like, that's really good news.

Yeah.

So let's back up. Let's wind back the clock just a little bit from chief revenue officer to wind it back to. Wow, I grew up with my parents being pastors. Like, wind it back to that far where. Where you talk a little bit about what did you learn, like, you know, growing up in that household, my experience with people who grew up in, what do they call it? Sop, like son of pastor or something?

It's pastor kids.

Yeah, Pastor kids. Right. So pks. Yeah. Which to me always stood for psychokinetic. Like, you move things. So that's the magician part of me. Right. It's pk. Anyway, so as a pastor's kid, you. My experience of pastor's kids is either, wow, I got some great lessons that I now embody and pass along to others, or, wow, I was so oppressed. I will, you know, like, they. They push against it and they became the bad kids.

Yeah, yeah.

My guess is you have. You had and still have great relationship and that you took on some really good lessons along the way. And I hope that's true. And if it is, then can you talk about that a little bit?

Well, yeah, and I had a really interesting upbringing because so my. I went to. And this is a lot of. To do with, like, my leadership drive and kind of my heart's passion. But so I grew up, I lived in Minnesota when I, you know, until. Through undergrad. And I went to school. I went to the richest school in the public school in the state of Minnesota. I didn't live within that area district, but all my friends from school were in that culture and that experience. I lived outside of it. And then my parents. Church was an hour away from our home, and it was the poorest city in the state of Minnesota. So I had this huge dichotomy of going. My friends at school were the wealthiest in the state, which I didn't fit in. And I'd go to our church, and the community there was the poorest of the poor, you know, where they would fill up their gas for three to five dollars because they couldn't. They couldn't fill it, the car, you know, and so I. And I. So I saw my mom serve that community, you know, and my dad served that community their whole lives. And then I saw, you know, my friend's dads on Lake Minnetonka with nice cars and boats, some of them with private jets, and I was like, ooh, I. I'm interested in that. How do that? You know, how do I get that? So, so. But, you know, so I. But I saw this life lesson of, you know, from. Really. From my mom, and it really, you know, she faced cancer five times. She ended up passing away from it. But, you know, when I was young, you know, they gave her a 30% chance live past five years and. But her mindset on what life was about and how you're always leading people to good and looking to add value wherever you go. That was really what stuck with me as a leader, because I saw her, no matter what she was going through internally and personally, within her own life and really, you know, the back of your head, even in remission, you know, you know, cancer's on the back of your head knocking, you know, you're not okay. You're not okay. And she still was so selfless in her leadership and looking to give whatever she had, time, food, money, which she didn't really have money, but she gave it all those elements are what I saw. And I, when I, and I looked at that and I looked at that coming into the business world, you know, really thinking through, you know, what is a, you know, what does it mean to be kind of a servant leader? What does that look like within the business realm? You know, I, I remember when we got, it was, you know, in startup world, like when you get cash positive, like, that's a really big deal. You know, especially back then, we didn't have AI functioning everything. So, you know, fintech was really expensive. And you know, when we got cash positive, it was a really big deal. So, you know, I remember the first time, first year we got cash positive, we gave a bonus to everyone and we actually gave the same bonus to everyone. And that was in. The idea was like, all of us are committed to this and you know, we're, we're going to give the. I'm taking the same bonus as, as you are, you know, Mr. Engineer, junior engineer. That doesn't mean everyone had the same equity. But like, we were trying to set a precedent and provide some type of level of, hey, you guys all earned this and we're going to invest back in our people. And so, you know, I just look back, you know, I think, you know, you're back to your fundamental question, like, what did I learn? I learned, you know, two elements. I learned just like drive because I saw the dichotomy from the poor and the wealthy and I wanted to make it happen. Now I didn't have, you know, the net. I was trying, I didn't have the network or like the, you know, just the backbone of to do, you know, to just kind of grow into that wealth. So I had to learn and always think through. But I also learned the other side of it to value kind of just the smaller things of life. And I think that is very important as you bring that into leadership.

That's huge. That is, I mean, that's Huge. You know, how often do we focus on. This is the big thing I'm after. Yeah. Right. And. And then I'm gonna show it off. And that means I've made it.

Yeah.

And it's like the fancy cars, the fancy watches, the fancy shoes, whatever it is. That doesn't mean you've made it. No. Right. You're the balance that you've got of. You know, it's. Sometimes it's small things.

Yes. And, you know, it's interesting. I was, you know, Nivelle Ravicant once said, you know, the. There something along the lines of, you know, true intelligence is getting the life that in living the life you want to live. That's true, and that's true intelligence. And his point was, really in the way I interpret it is this idea where it's like, you know, I think I've written about this a lot on my LinkedIn, where it's like, I think people really are missing it. Where it's. The volatility of what culture defines. Of success is one. It changes in a moment. And people's praise and people's shame come and go all the time. And I think, you know, it. What people don't understand is like, even. And I wrote this article and I called it faith or Foolishness. And my point was this. I had a dream for 10 years. I didn't know if it was gonna work out or not. And if it would have failed, it wasn't because I didn't try hard enough. Things had to work out. People gave me their benefit of the doubt. Other people helped me out. Time was on my side. Certain events happened. Well, the same person, the same, you know, better talents could have failed not because they were better than me, and it could have failed just for other reasons. And so I just find it funny where we glorify this defined success, whatever that means. And just like. But like, we don't think about not even the journey, but the character of the individuals and that they're already successful. Just because you don't have an identifiable win doesn't mean you're not winning. Like, you are already successful. If you're doing certain behaviors that progress towards the person and the objective you're trying to hit, even if there's not that quantifiable objective hit.

I think. I think what you said about live the life you want to live, that's success. Right. So, you know, for some people, that's. I just want two days a week to sit by myself and read a book.

Yeah.

And that's great. And there will be others that are. That are going to be. I want to be, you know, in my mansion on a private island. It's like, okay. But it's, I think, to your point, we tend to view success as what other people would say it is to us. Right. So. Right. We have the fancy. I. I go back to the shoes because I saw a show where somebody was coveting these Air Jordans. And it's like, you know, for some people, that's amazing. And for me it means nothing. And it's sort of like, that's okay. You know, it's. And. And it's like, that's great. Because the life I want doesn't include Air Jordans. The life somebody else wants and does. And that's. That's awesome. I think the fact that you had a dream and you followed it, I think that's a big deal, right? That it's like you. One of the, One of the key lessons about success, if you've done any of the reading, you know, from Napoleon Hill to Wallace Wattles to, like, I think consistency is what shows up over and over again. Are you. Do you have an identifiable dream? Have you declared it, at least to yourself? So it's very specific. And are you working on it daily on a regular basis? Are you doing something to move towards it? And you did that, you know, you took the lessons from your parents and you saw that the polar extremes existed, and you get to choose, you know, where you want to fall in those polar extremes or, you know, break. Break the boundaries on the upper limit. You know, it's like, that's. It's all good. It's a choice. Then are you working towards it on a daily basis? Yeah.

Do you see, you know, in your. When you go work with organizations on, on leadership, you know, you said something that triggered a question to you, which, if we look at your definition of success when you're leading, sometimes the leaders think that their definition of success for that employee is actually not what the employee's definition of success is for themselves. So if they are reflective enough and self aware enough, that employee may say, my success isn't actually you giving me a bonus. My success is X, Y and Z. It's learning, it's exposure to mentorship. It's, you know, it's something else. Do you, do you go into that at all when you talk?

I definitely do. First of all, I want to say thank you. I love it when my guests turn into the interviewers. That's always fun. And second of all, to answer the Question. Yes, it is key. I go into that all the time. I start with talking about how, like, for the leadership, how do you recognize success? And it's sort of like getting down to the basics of what's your love language, right? Because just because you have a certain style or a certain focus or a certain definition of success for someone else, you know, when you go, hey, you know, congratulations, come on up here. Come in front of everybody. We're gonna recognize you. That could be the absolute worst thing in the world for that one person. Right? So it could be, hey, what is it?

What.

What would be a good way of rewarding you or recognizing you? Because I saw you do this thing, made a difference to the organization. I was thinking of a big award. Does that mean something to you? And the person may go, actually, you know, what do you have? Like, can you give me a gift card for childcare?

Right.

And it could be that. It could be as simple as that.

It's like, it's so. You know, I've seen this. I had. I have a funny example where we had a blockbuster year the year before I sold my company. And the. You know, the. The VC firm at the time is venture capital. And they're like, hey, we want you to fly out, and we're going to take you to this event, and we're going to have floor seats, and you're going to meet these people. And I'm just not like that. You know, I was like, it. But I went because I. But I did as a favor to them, like, because I was like, well, I can't be disrespectful, but I was already traveling a bunch for work, away from my three daughters and my wife. The last thing I wanted to do was leave them, you know. You know, on a weekend to celebrate ourselves. Yes. I want to be with them, so. But I remember fly. I told my wife, I'm like, what do I do? And she's like, you have to go. But it was like, it was the opposite. I still remember where it's like, I dreaded it, that I had to come back home and then go back to work. And it was like, that was not. Not a reward to me.

That's. It's funny when the reward becomes the punishment. Yeah. We're going to treat you so well. You have to be with us and away from the people you love. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, the leadership lesson here is pause. Recognize that you're not living the golden rule. You're living. You've got to live the platinum Rule. So, you know, it's not treat others the way you would want to be treated. It's treat others the way they actually want to be treated.

Right? Yeah, yeah.

And, and that takes effort. One of the things I talk about is the hey, how are you? Thing. It's like, you know, I, yeah, I spent, I spent time on the floor. I know all my employees or whatever, and it's like, well, what do you know about them? Hey, how are you? Hi, how are you? How are you? And it's, oh, fine, fine. Good, good. And it goes nowhere versus, you know. So, Michael, tell me about your daughters, right? How are they doing and taking that time to just really dive into what matters to you. That's good leadership. That's really good leadership.

You know, Marc Andreessen, he's one of the most successful investors of all time. He was the founder of Netscape, who created the Internet Browser and has az16, which is the most successful venture capital firm. You know, he was mentioning, you know, I'm in technology and so we're investing a lot in artificial intelligence. And I spent a lot of time in AI. And a lot of the shift that's happening is it's going to be very interesting because, you know, I used. You asked me, you know, five years ago, and I have the same answer today. What do you think the most important trait is of a leader? And I would say empathy. And it's going to be even augmented more now because what's happening is our AI is actually coming in and doing the job of people with the finance IQ component. Right. And it's coming in and doing the analysis of investment bankers, it's doing the analysis for spreadsheets. And so the ingredient still aggressively going to be needing even more will be someone now who has a high eq, can also have the high IQ through AI and then come and tell a story, a messaging and relate and equate to each Persona if they have that empathy trait. And that empathy trait is so important because it's important for your employees, it's important, important for your family, your marriage. It's important for who you're selling to, your clients and your customers. Because you fundamentally even like in my business, like when you go into a market, Reid Hoffman, who's the co founder of LinkedIn, he always says you don't start with the product, you start with the problem the community needs to get solved. Well, how do you know that unless you're empathetic? You have to understand the people in the community before you can do business with Them and you know, now you don't have to, but you become the transactional person. But to add true deep value is fundamentally saying, I have a val, I have want to understand you. And to do that, that means I'm in it for the long term. And if I'm in it to the long term, as Jeff Bezos says, when you're in it for the long term, all your competition actually goes away because they're in it for the short term. And I think that from a leadership standpoint is very important. Empathy creates that long term value, both relationally and I think on a monetary side as well.

This is great. I looks like we may be having some tech difficulties because you're frozen. There we go. We're back. And we're back. Cool. So you said so many great things there. I want to talk about empathy. A lot of people will misconstrue the idea of empathy. Like, oh, as a leader you have to demonstrate empathy. That doesn't mean being all sniffly about somebody else's emotional state. Yeah, right. It means understanding that they have an emotional state and understanding that they have needs. But maybe you can talk to them about what those are. Not that you need to solve them, but that you might have ideas about how they can feel better or do better. So the idea of, you know, don't just come up with something, but find out what people want or need. That's both individually as well as at a community or global level. I love that. Also you talked about, you talked about transactional, right? And it's, and it's like the idea of being relational first, then transactional because it's so easy to go, well, I will do this for you if you do that for me. Versus how are you doing? Right, how are you doing? When I ran a healthcare organization, I, I had on my calendar several times throughout the month I would put what's called dotf, what I call dotf, which was day on the floor. And who was it? It was Blanchard, I think, who called it management by wandering around nbwa. And I did it as day on the floor because it was healthcare. So I wasn't just wandering around, I was actually like, today I work for you. What are you working on? And they're like, well, I have this many rooms, I have to change this many beds. I'm like, cool, let's do it together. Teach me.

Awesome, right?

Teach me. So, you know, I learned a lot from that. I was young in management, doing that, but it was an incredible experience. And, and, and for me Also, it was a matter of, did I take the time to actually engage long enough to catch nuance? Right. Facial nuance, whether that's eye color, whether that's smile, whether that's, you know, whatever it is. Did I. Did I pause long enough to actually engage and notice the person in front of me? And that is important at home, that is important at work, that is important in the community. I do that every time I go shopping, whether I'm getting coffee or getting groceries. It's like I'm going to pause and hold eye contact with the person who's doing the transaction. But to me, it's got to be relational first.

Yeah. Yeah, right. So you seen that transit? You know, I think it was as early as, you know, 2010 even. You had the information age, and, you know, people would sell their information and it was hard to get in, you know, get. Get access to information. And now today, it's so easy that, you know, you have to provide, you know, you know, this information and this relationship for free. And so even if you're not that type of personality, you know, even if you're just more of like, I want the business result, it's like, you know, honestly, the people who are creating these personal brands, what they do is they create a sense of familiarity and relationship with their clientele, and it's that in a frequent way, and they provide value and information for free, you know, and then it's more of the implementation of the execution of that information where they're adding the value, and it's kind of what you do, I think. You know, you know, Dwayne, you have so much information and you're so generous with it. You provide it for free to these organizations or individuals, and then they still hire you. Like, well, you just told me everything. But no, they still hire you because they. You provide the capacity for them to actually implement that and execute it in its entirety.

Thank you for that. I think I'll loop that piece over and over again. That was awesome. Thank you. Yeah. No, and that is. That's what it takes, right? Relationship capital. And the good news is I don't do it in some fake way. Like, I really care about people I really care about. And it's not I care about people. It's like, I really care about people, and I really. It. It matters to me that. That every day, each person that I encounter is getting a little better. Yeah. Because if. If they're not, then it's entropy. Right? They. They start to. They start to degrade and. And there's Enough of that out there, right? Like, I mean, it's a shirt, it's a, it's a part of life to a degree. But like, even like my goal, people ask me, when are you going to retire? All my friends are starting to retire or they have retired. And I'm like, I don't even know what that means. I've got so much in me. Like, let's go. You know, that I can't imagine doing anything different. You know, that it's, that it's like I've got, I am growing every day on purpose.

Yeah.

And that's, you know, I think by modeling that, I think it allows me to bring people with me. Yeah, you want to grow every day too? Come on, let's do that. And so whether that's as an individual coaching client or as an organization, I'm there kind of modeling for the leadership to then model as well. So that, that is the trickle down and that that becomes the culture. Let's go. I believe in you. Growth is a value. Let's go.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's all good.

Cool. So, all right, given our timing, what haven't I asked you? What were you hoping to be able to share, like, closing thoughts, that kind of stuff?

Well, I mean, that's, that's, that's very. I, you know, we've covered a lot of ground already. But, you know, I think what, you know, I think what I would talk about in leadership, in anyone that I've found successful, and when I say success, you know, again, it comes back to what you and I talked about. I remember when I was at the height of, you know, you know, probably one of my, the largest heights of my financial income, you know, it didn't mean I was at the height of my success. And I had a friend and I found him so successful and he was a, you know, you know, a children's pastor and living his dream life, full of energy, full of life, had a great family who respected him, knew who he was, you know, and I remember just looking at him being like, you are so successful in my mind. And it was such a, you know, juxtaposition of how, you know, people look at, in our culture. But I, but I look at like, you know, the people that I've seen that I view that are successful, you know, and some of them on. In different degrees, obviously in business as well. And, and I think that, that it comes back to what you said. It's the consistency. Right. I always say, you know, consistent choices create character and character is who you are. And I think that those consistent choices throughout the journey of life, that's really what separates you into the level of elite and successful individuals. And if I look at kind of, you know, where people kind of really actually lose themselves, is actually not in the low lows or the high highs. It's in the mundane. It's when life is mundane, which is a lot of, a lot of the life. And that they, they lose the Christmas and the edge and the consistency that they need to have in order to have those, those highs and to become who they want to become. And those lows make them prove themselves out of who they are, actually. And so I've always, you know, you know, one thing I always like to, you know, I'd like to talk about is that, that life can be mundane, you know, if, and, and if you let it. And so, but when you bring intentionality into the everyday and the every moment and like what you do so well, which is how are you doing when you're having a coffee, you know, grabbing a coffee or.

Exactly.

Grocery store, like you're taking the mudane and making it memorable. And I think that's so powerful.

It is powerful. I, I have friends that will quote back to me something I said decades ago, which is basically you, how you do anything is how you do everything.

That's so good. Yeah.

Right. So if you are, if you say you're about excellence, but you let some stuff slide, you're not about excellence. And so if you're not there with the little stuff, how can I trust you to be there with my stuff? Right? So you've got to be consistent. You've got to show up.

Yeah.

There was a quote that was attributed to Aristotle, but it's not. It first showed up in a Will durant book in 1926. And that is, we are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. And so that was, A lot of people think that that was Aristotle. It's not. But I, I still like the quote, you know, it's like, that's awesome.

I was listening to a podcast and these, these two kind of well known writers were talking about, you know, one guy, individual was like talking about his book that just came out and they were laughing because his mentor writer kept bugging him. When are you gonna write this book? When are you gonna write this book? And he's like, it's coming sometime. And he wasn't getting out there and he wasn't even practicing. And he's like, he goes and he Goes the guy, the, the junior writer kind of finally broke down. Like, you know, I'm more of just a communicator. I'm not an author. And he looks at him, he goes, all right, do what, What? You're not an author. That's fine. What would a good author do? And do that. And he's like, well, a good author would write every day. He goes, okay, you're not a good author. That's fine. Just write every day. That's what I'm challenging to do. And back to like, what you said, like doing it, actually. Then create the individual.

That's exactly right. That's how confidence grows too. That's how you build anything. Is like, well, it feels uncomfortable to write every day. So great. Be uncomfortable every day till it's not uncomfortable to lift this weight. This, this weight is so heavy. And then after you lift it every day, it's like the weight's no longer heavy. Well, the weight hasn't changed. You have. That's the whole point. That's growth, right? So. So, yeah, be in that. Do it every day. This is awesome, Michael. If you people wanted to reach you, how would they find you? Is it, is it best on LinkedIn?

LinkedIn's the best. Absolutely. Reach out to me at LinkedIn. Michael Roth. R O T H and I'm on Twitter, but LinkedIn is absolutely my, you know, my most go to and biggest, you know, kind of connections and areas to communicate.

That's great. That's how I found you. Leadership. Right? So that's. That's awesome. Michael Roth on LinkedIn. Michael Roth has been my guest today. Thank you again, Michael, for being here. Appreciate it.

Thank you so much. You have a good rest of your day.

Alrighty. This is one sharp sword cutting through to what matters most. I'm your host, Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell again your host, guide and coach on this journey. Thank you again to Michael Roth and for you as our listeners. Please like this episode, share this episode and tune in again next time. We'll see you here. Thank you. Thanks for listening to one sharp sword cutting through to what matters Most with outfluencer Dr. Wayne Purnell. For more information, please go to onesharpsword.com.