Interview with Robert Beaven

You're listening to One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters Most with outfluencer Dr. Wayne Purnell. Welcome to One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters Most. I'm your host, guide and coach on this journey. Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell. Today my guest is Robert Bevan. He's a human centered culture architect who has spent more than two decades helping leaders and organizations build culture where people thrive and performance follows. His work is so aligned with what I believe about culture and organizations, Building culture isn't just a side initiative, it's the strategy for success. Robert's work bridges leadership, alignment, psychological safety, and courageous conversations. Today we'll explore what all of that means, especially during these times of real complexity. Robert bevan, welcome to One Sharp Sword.

Thank you, Dr. P. Glad to be here.

I'm so glad you're here. We had a great call a little while ago, found out how much alignment we have and I was just really excited about doing this podcast with you because as I said in the introduction, culture, and these are actually your words, culture is the strategy, which I love, I just totally love. So talk a little bit. Let's start with where you are. We'll back up to how you got there and then we'll talk about, you know, some of the leadership lessons you've learned either for yourself along the way or in working with groups and organizations along the way, some of the key things that stood out. So what are you up to these days? What are you doing?

Yeah, so these days, you know, I have a few things going on. Few irons in the fire. They're all focus on culture and helping design and build better cultures. I have a tool that does team assessments, right. Really understanding and allowing for psychological safety and cognitive diversity or trust in multiple perspectives. And I continue to do a lot of coaching with executives. And really when we're looking at it from a cultural perspective, it's not just the culture within the organization they work at, it's also the culture that within where they live. Right. Because they both cross pollinate.

So, yeah, I'm a big fan of not separating work, life. Right. We talk about work, life, balance and it's sort of like you have life and how are you showing up? And I, I do believe that how you do anything is how you do everything. So that, you know, there's this carryover, you've got values. They shouldn't pause at work or pause at home. It's like you've got values. So as you bring that into the community or from the community, to work, Right. How is that all showing up? Talk a little bit about your, what you believe about psychological safety. Whose job is that? How does that show up? Where is it violated? Let's talk about trust. Like all of those things are. They're so foundational. And as we, you know, get into this new year, I think it's really great that we can actually commit to, Commit to that for ourselves and for our teams.

No, I love that. And I, you know, I loved in, in your book, choosing your power, you know, the, you know, you talk about curiosity, right? And being curious is really the core of allowing for psychological safety, for allowing for that trust to be built. And I think too often we, you know, we, we look at it from. As an academic term, right? We don't realize that building that people, first and foremost, people want to belong. Like, no one wants to go to work and not be part of something where they feel like they belong. And I think it's the leadership's really responsibility to help foster a culture where trust is, is that's the first thing they're focusing on. And I think too often, because trust will be broken. I know as an executive, many times I've broken trust and it's trying to get that back and it's being aware that it takes time and it's through your actions. It's not a, not a check the box kind of piece, if that makes sense.

Oh, it totally makes sense. It totally makes sense. You know, I, I know early on there were places where I was out of alignment as an early manager. I mean, this was decades ago. And I, I had to tell my team that due to county funding, we were, I was running a healthcare organization that was funded by six different counties, and due to county funding cutback, there were going to be layoffs. And that's a serious statement, right? And, and because I was so worried about how I was going to look, I ended up saying it with a giant smile on my face. And my director of nursing came to me and said, you know, that looked really bad. That looked really bad. You looked like you were really happy about that. And I'm like, I was horrified that I was so misaligned, right, that the, that I was so worried about, was it going to be okay? Was I going to be okay giving this bad news? It's like I forgot who my audience was. And so, you know, that's, that's where you're right. Trust takes time, and you've got to be there and build it every single moment. I was able to recapture That I was able to do a redo and.

Actually talk about.

What happened with my team. And I took some, some stuff for that along the way. But, yeah, it's a. It's something. It's something. It's. As I said, it's a lesson from decades ago. But it was so valuable.

No, I love that. And I. And I have a similar story where I remember when I had a. They put me on a new team as a manager. When I got promoted because of performance, not because I was a leader. And within a month, they had. They were going to have me fire five people. I was like, what do I say? And so my director was like, like, what do you mean? I was like, well, when they get upset, like, they say, pay their bills, they have to, you know, pay for their kids, their house. He goes, just say, how does that affect me? That's how I was trained. No, I didn't say that. Yeah, I mean, how did, like, how in here? So I, I stumbled and scrambled over it. And after a time, I started learning how to either find them a different place within the organization, help them look elsewhere, but not be at that. That cold. And we've seen it in the last year where people are fired on a zoom call or laid off or so. Like, it's almost like we're allowing technology to make us less human and then blame technology.

Yes, agreed. And it's. I mean, with the, the inundation. I was looking for the right word, and it really is inundation of, of AI. Right. Everything is shifting. And in 10 years we'll look back and go, that was nothing. Right now we're navigating it. What does it mean? What does it mean to me? And I think that's the key, you know, when we talk about culture, I think that's the key is that culture is, Is a group sense. Right. And. And that group is made up of individuals. And so each individual contributes to a culture based on their understanding, based on their needs, based on their feelings, based on the way they think. And I think it's up to leaders to understand individuals so that they can, I guess, amalgamate all of that into. Here's the culture I want to build. Like, being able to influence that with their own thoughts and direction and, and most important, actions, because actions are going to speak to their values more than their thinking or what they say.

Yeah, I love that. It kind of reminds me of what was in your book where you're talking about like, we're looking, we're trying for perfection, we're trying to be the perfect leader. Right. And we're trying it for whatever this looks like, not realizing that we could already be there. We just don't need to. First off, I think we compare ourselves to others, too, way too often. Right. Part of that's our society. Right. How you. What you dress, you know, how you drive all this other stuff. Right. I think that.

I think it was Emerson. Wasn't it Emerson who said comparison is the thief of joy? Not sure who said it, but it was.

Yeah, that's true. It wasn't. It might have been Emerson.

Yeah.

I. No, I love that because it is. You really think that it's taking away that joy. And I think the big thing is, especially for leaders, is fear. There's so much fear they're going to make mistakes. And I can tell you, I still make mistakes. I mean, I've been doing this for decades. I've been coaching people and get. Trying to become. I still, this year, I've made multiple mistakes.

Robert, you're not perfect. What's up with that?

I know, right? Yeah, well, that's what we try for, but it's. It's. And that's. That's where the actions come in.

Right.

You know, when I'm. When I'm coaching certain executives and they're struggling with this, say, listen, go and make a mistake on purpose and then own it in front of the room when someone calls you out. Right. There's a great. There's a great YouTube video of this professor who writes down, like, there's 10 equations and he's writing them all. He gets one wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

And they're like. He goes, what about the nine times I did it? Right? We're so focused on when people make mistakes, we forget that a. They're not perfect. Right. And that we need to say, hey, great job these other nine times.

Yeah.

And that's helped me see that. Like, I've realized that instead of reading something. So, like, when I'm reading, I read like a book a week. I innately see where there's a. There's an error. There's always an error in a book. No book's perfect. And before I used to write it down and I would sit there and email the publisher or whatever and say, listen, I found this error. And now I'm like, what am I doing? What a waste of time. It's okay to have mistakes.

You know, I had someone I worked with when. When you referenced choosing your power. It was my first book. And when it came out, you know, I Was so proud of it. And it's my baby. And prior to recording, I was talking about how I'd redo. Would redo so many things in that book. They weren't mistakes at the time. And these days, you know, I look back and it's like, oh, I would say this differently. I had somebody I worked with, when it came out, she found 22 typos. And it had gone through me multiple times. It had gone through two different editors, and still, you know, those things stood out. It's like, okay, you know, okay, I'm not, I'm not republishing just for the sake of eliminating two 22 typos. That said, you know, there may be a renewal of that book at some point, but if I think the values of the organization and the individual leader, I think if those values are that we are a learning organization and that I, as an individual, am a learning organism, then it's not a failure unless you do it a second time. Right? That, that is like, you haven't, You've. You've updated the data that you've received. That's all right.

You.

You didn't set out to make a mistake unless you're doing it deliberately to prove something to your team members. Like, look, oh, yeah, I did make a mistake, and I'm in two minds about that. I've seen, you know, there are hotel chains that deliberately withhold towels and, or, you know, they'll make a quote unquote mistake. And the reason is because most people will forgive the mistake if it's handled correctly, and then they'll remember how it's handled. And so the higher end hotel chains, there are several of them that do this. They'll make that quote unquote mistake, and then they'll handle it by giving flowers and extra gifts. And then all of a sudden you're talking about how they handled this thing versus the mistake they made.

Right.

I. I don't know. I'm sort of in two minds about it. Like, I, I want it to be. I want people to live genuinely. If you make a mistake, own it. And as I said, it's only a mistake. It wasn't a mistake when you made the decision. Right. One of the things that, That.

I.

Like to challenge people with is what does it feel like to be wrong? And I love that. The answer is it feels the same as being right until you find out you were wrong. So being right. So being wrong and being right feel identical until the point you go, oh, oh, right. And then what does it feel like, well, it depends on what you do with it. And that's what's cool, is if you go, hey, if you are accountable as a leader, I think that builds trust. Right. And you go, hey, I thought we were headed down this path and it turns out it's the wrong path. Let's change, change direction. Right?

Yeah, yeah. No, I love and definitely be being transparent on the mistakes. I hadn't heard about hotels doing that. I mean, it's kind of a brilliant, brilliant thing if you think about it. I think it's more of, from a leadership perspective is more of allowing as leaders start to go through a change, I think there's two things that happen. One is they expected results immediately. Right. And the reality is we've all trained how to interact with each other. Right. Especially if you're a leader of a team for any number of months to start with. And I think what happens is we have to remember, even if the leader is changing, that doesn't mean that you actually everyone else is going to see that change or experiencing that right off the bat. Right. So it's giving time for that to kind of sink in and using personal experiences of your own when you're talking. One of the big things I think about leadership and I do this actually every Friday now. I've started posting something very personal about an experience where I've made a mistake or with my children, et cetera, because I think it's. The reality is we have so much. And you mentioned this earlier, we're just thrown so much information and we have to slow down and be a little bit personal every now and then and let people realize who we are. Because you can't be. And you mentioned this earlier, going from home to work to being by yourself and being around your friends like it needs to be consistent for you to be a true leader. You have to. At the core, it needs to be similar. It doesn't mean you can't joke around more with your friends and at work. But at the core, your values, you were mentioning that earlier, has to be stable along course because it'll, It'll eke out in different areas. Yeah.

Values are key to vision. And I have three V's in my framework. Values, vision, vitality. And vitality is how you embody. How are you showing up? What's your life? How are you showing up with those values and with that vision and. Right. How you express it can be different based on the context. Right. So. But you're still in integrity. You're still. Right. Are you, Are you Going to be a certain way with a barista or a cashier because they're in a different role than you. I hope not. They're human. Right. They're in service. So how are you showing up? Are you showing up in support of everybody that you meet? Right. That's a, that's a personal value. I don't need to impose that on everybody else. But, but that's, you know, that is, for me, I look for that in other people. Right. It's like, help me find good humans, you know, and it's, it's great.

Well, I think, too, it's, it's trying to, trying to meet people without putting them in a box.

Yeah.

Super hard.

Super.

Like you said, mentioned the barista, you automatically put them in a. But you have no idea what their story is.

Exactly.

Right. And I think it's really trying to be comfortable, being uncomfortable.

That's a trick. That's a trick. Well, you talked about immediacy, immediate results. Right. So I'll, I'll share a coaching I did with a, with a business owner. And if you've got stories, love to hear them, too. This is, you know, this business owner was trying to show himself in control and just felt like he had let control go to his team. And, you know, I shadowed him and I watched the way he'd walk into a, into a team meeting and his head was down and his shoulders were up a little bit, and he was almost asking for approval instead of setting the context. Walk in, shoulders back. You own this place, right? These are people that want you to say where we're headed. We're all headed in this direction. That's what vision is about. Do you believe in that vision? So the coaching was really around. Can you stay focused on this vision and can you bring that into everything you do? And remember, the people in this room, they're not judging you. They. And maybe they are, but so what? They want you to succeed so that they can succeed. And that's really the trick of leadership, isn't it?

I love that. I, I, it was funny the first time I was on stage. A good friend of mine who is a, as a coach said, for, for speaking coach said, rob, everyone wants you to succeed. Like, everyone wants you to be successful and make them feel like they belong and they're part of the conversation.

It's true.

And that stuck with me. And just like you said, right. It's. People want you to succeed. People want you to be a good leader.

Yeah.

People want to, want to come to work and to Feel like they belong. So how do you create that? Because that power. A lot more powerful than a title.

So much so. So much so. I. I had my very first drama coach in the seventh grade. Early, early trauma. He was so bad, I. I wanted to do so well with him. And. And I seldom use the word but. And. And here's the whole thing. But, as you know from reading my book, and. And is the watchword substitute for but I wanted to do well.

But.

And he just. His. His message was, there are two types of audience. Those who want to see you mess up and those who hope you fail. What a terrible thing to give to a seven. A seventh grader, Right? Like, this is awful. Especially since I was a people pleaser growing up, right? So, oh, my goodness, people are gonna hope that I fail. This is terrible news. And it wasn't until later that I'm like, no, no. The. The real message is people on. People want you to take them on a journey. When you're on stage and when you're in the leadership role, it's the same thing. People want that. And when you're in support of leadership, people want that. See? Yeah. One of my beliefs is that everybody's a leader. We're all being watched. We're all being watched. I. I know that you've learned things from your kids, right?

Oh, absolutely.

Right. So everyone's a leader. So dare to have an opinion, dare to say it out loud, dare to share it, dare to share your desires. You know, where you. Where are we going? Right, so this is great. So what got you here? Let's talk about your journey a little bit. What got you here? And what kinds of things have you learned along the way?

Yeah, well, like I said, I was, you know, I was a top sell rep in a Fortune thousand. They promoted me because I was a top performer right into management. It's horrible. I did not do a very good job. I look back and cringe. Actually, I had a conversation a few weeks ago with the director of hr, who I still stayed in touch with, and she's like, we have these great. We have these conversations from the past of what a nightmare I was, that when I went from site to site, they'd have a tractor trailer follow me because HR thought I was a nightmare. And she was very happy and very pleased at the path I've chosen compared to what I used to do. And I think that, you know, I ended up going out and then doing business development a few other companies and then realized I didn't want to be in the boys club anymore. You know, I really, the last company I worked before I went left corporate was the only leadership, were males, were all males. And it just, it just, it started feeling icky. Even though I was part of the problem, there's just something off. And I finally said at the time, we were just dating. I said to my, my, my now wife that I was like, I just don't think I can do it anymore. And she said, well, you know, you love consulting, you love coaching. Why don't you go out and do that? And I was like, well, she goes, don't worry about the money. Like, go out and do what you love. And that's transpired into, you know, working a company that was focused on, you know, building stronger cultures for over a decade. It helped me become a better father by being able to focus on, you know, my children and hearing them and listening to them instead of worrying about, you know, what my role or my title was. You know, I've told all my kids that, like, it doesn't matter what your job is. The goal as early as possible is to be able to say, when someone says, what do you do for work? You say, I don't work. Because whatever you do to make money, you just enjoy it. That's your life. I think that's really where I've been able to go, thanks to my wife has created that opportunity for me to go and do my own thing that really brings me joy and doesn't feel like work. Like talking with you and talking about this, this doesn't work. This is talking about things that I love and I appreciate and I want to try to change.

That's awesome. That's really great. I think, you know, I think it's so amazing to be supported the way you've been supported, right? Do what you love. I mean, shouldn't we all be living that way? Do what you love, right? And if you don't love what you're doing, what can you do to either? I, I, I like to ask the question, are you in the wrong job or are you just in the job wrong? Like, can you wake up and go, I am going to make a difference today? Like, this is, you know, this is, this is what I do, and I love it. I don't always love the things in it. It's sort of, you know, I had a mentor a little while back. Talk about, you know, when you own a dog, you kind of love that dog. You don't always love cleaning up after it, but that's part of loving the dog. Right, so. So you don't have to love every single dog bit of what you do, but can you wake up and go, I am in it. Like, what I do matters. Right? So you haven't used this word. And I think it's, it's one that is worth focusing on because.

It'S a.

Value that I think of each of us chose to, to live into just that bit more would make connection deeper. And that word is presence. What is your leadership presence? What is your presence as a parent? What is your presence as a partner? What is your parent presence as a community member? Like, how were you showing up? And you're just like, getting through the day, getting through the week, getting through the month, getting through the quarter, the.

Year.

You know, and, and in my other book, I, I have several of them. And in the significance factor, I talk about, you know, are you, are you rushing through your week or your life just to get to the end of it? Right? It's like, made it, made it that far. Poof. Or is it something that you, you're like, no, this time is flying fast, but I'm not rushing through it. I'm present every moment. Everybody needs something different from you. So when you show up at work, what does your leadership team say? What is your, what is your line staff say? What does. You know, it's like, who are you meeting and what do they need from you? And I think that's. Those are key questions to keep in mind when you think about leadership presence. And again, everybody's a leader, so who are you being.

Yeah, and I love that. And it's funny because I did a post this week and a couple weeks ago as well, about being present. Is the greatest present you can give your team.

Nice.

And I did to your family, to your. Like, it's about. I think we're so. And listen, I understand we're how our society's built, capitalism, etc. Like, I get that, but there's something more important than that, and it's really about time. And I know that, like, going back to learning from my kids, right. I spent, you know, probably four hours cleaning my son's car. He was away on vacation. He left his car at our house, cleaned it, detailed it, did all this stuff. And it was his birthday and I said, hey, I want to take you out to your birthday. And we got in his car and I was like, why don't you drive? And he's like, you did. Like, no, I'm buying you dinner. I was like, no, no, no, this, this is, I just did this for you. He goes, no, but I know your time is valuable, right? To which I'm saying, no, my time's valuable to do things with you. Right? So it's that whole perspective of if you give people time instead of rushing throughout your day to what you're talking about, if we can slow down and be present. Right. Be cognizant. Right. And really listen, do active listening. Right. Instead of just listening to solve, which I'm really good at listening to solve. And one of the challenges I had, and I finally started using this with my spouse, was, do you want me to listen to solve, or do you want me to listen to hear? And it's interesting.

Are you just on a rant or, like, all I have to do is listen or. Right. Or do you need, like, help working through this? Yeah.

And it's not easy because she'll be like, oh, I just want you. I just want to. I just need to vent. I'm like, okay, then she'll vent. And I'm just sitting there. I'm just like. And she looks at me and she goes, you're in a lot of pain right now, aren't you? I was like, nope, I'm good because I just want to be able to. Because I'm such an extrovert. Right. But the reality is, for her, it gives her more joy to be. To know that she can vent without having to worry about either mansplaining or giving her an answer that isn't relevant, etc.

It's a safe space. I mean, you're creating that, which is great. I think that's, you know, I think that's the value of this conversation is, you know, I'm hoping that these little tidbits are showing up for our audience, that as you listen to this or watch this, that you're getting little pieces that are like, oh, I could try that. Oh, I could try that. Right? But it's, you know, that's what I'm hoping is. Is coming out of our conversation. So, yeah. Presence, trust, like, and. And time. Just because someone asks for it doesn't mean that you give it then. Right? Right in. It's not immediate. Or it could be. You know, my kids, I taught them as they were growing up, they're all adults and out in the world now. Didn't. Making an amazing mark in the world. And I'm super proud of each of them. And as they were growing up, I taught them that they could always ask for my time. And when I had a team, when I was running, well, I still Do. It's a different team. But when I was running a larger team, I taught them, you could always ask for my time. The answer might be, it'll be two hours before I can give it to you. Or it'll be, you know, I will have 15 minutes. In 15 minutes, I'll hold that for you. And. And it's like they know then that that is what's special. Period. That's it. Like, they are special because I'm holding. I'm reserving that time for them. Not like, unless they say it's an emergency. I need you now.

Awesome. Right?

Everything's right now. I've dropped everything. What do you need? Right. But I think that's really important that, that, you know, we safeguard our own values by creating boundaries. And that way, by the way, that makes us trustworthy. When we have boundaries, that makes us trustworthy.

So. Absolutely. Yeah. And it gives your. Because remember, I think that people often forget that, you know, you need to take care of yourself to be. To take care of others. So by giving yourself boundaries. Right? Being. Being. Saying no. Like, one of the big things I've seen a lot and I've. A lot of executives I've spoken to is like, I just don't have time because I just. I don't know how to say no, let's practice it, right? Because they want to be everything to everybody. And the reality is they need to empower people. Right? That's what leadership really is, whether it's at home or wherever. It's. It's not having to do it yourself because you want it done right. Because you don't know. It's not giving them the opportunity to learn or grow. Like, leaders should be focused on. The greatest leaders out there are the ones where people are being promoted all around them. And we used to have one of the. One of the company I was at for a decade, CMO or Chief Marketing Officer, she asked me one day, she's like, why is it everyone. Every new person spends two weeks with me when they first come to the company? I was like, because you're better at I am. Than onboarding. And I know if they spend two weeks with you, they're going to be 100% better than spending two weeks with me. At first. She's like, oh, I never knew. Like. And that I probably should have given her a little more warning of why that was happening. But I truly. Everyone that spent time with her for a number of years, they always were just so prepared compared when they only spent time with me or with Someone else, like that was her superpower. Right. But that's the whole thing of being a leader is knowing the people within your team that can do things as good or if not better than you to allow me to be. To do other things.

So good. So good. Know where the institutional knowledge is and who's the best one to convey it. Such a great message.

Yeah. And realize that I think one of the big things right now with a lot of people, you know, they have to quiet quitting. They have all this, all the different terminology they're using, I think it's being aware of those that are being quiet on your team. Right. How do you bring them into the conversation? How do you help elevate them and find out what's important to them instead of just like what you mentioned earlier, just hitting, checking the box, doing the metrics.

And it could be those that are quiet on the team are introverts and they're processing differently. Right. So you know, one of the, one of the. And maybe you've got. Maybe you've got different kind of coaching ideas. One of the things that I would do is I would in, I would invite and. Or practice. Here's what we're going to talk about and if you've got things to contribute, I'd love to have it so. And I put that out a day or two ahead of the meeting.

Yeah.

That would always frame the meeting so that it would go really fast. And that way we're not off on different, you know, topics or tangents. Here's what we're going to talk about. Here's what we need to resolve. Bring your ideas. Right.

I love that. Yeah. And we actually, it was interesting because we ran when we first were doing beta testing for Octahedron, we did that with our internal consulting team and we had someone on there that was an introvert. And it was really interesting because after we went through a few of the exercises, there was trust. She felt safe. And so she came to me and. Exactly what you said, Rob, I want to start sharing more, but it takes me longer to process. Do you mind if you share the stuff pre meeting, like just a couple hours. And I said, if I have it, I'll give it to you. The day before, first time we did that, she showed up as a totally different person and gave us ideas and different perspectives. That blew us, everyone on the team away. Right. So to your point, it's finding out if it's not calling them out in front of everyone, it's calling them in, maybe pulling them aside Hey, I love that. I noticed that you don't share a lot. Like, is there something I could be doing different? Not is there something you need to do differently? Is share. Take it on you. What do I need to do differently? Where I can hear more from you and your ideas and perspective. What would that look like?

Huge. Rob, this is. That's a. A huge piece. What do I. As the leader, right parentheses. What do I need to do differently for you so that you can fill in the blank. And I love the other thing you just said, which is. You said it slightly differently, but this is. And this is key. Don't call them out, call them in. I love that. I love that. It's huge. It's really good. What I'm keeping track of our time. What would you hope we would have talked about? What kind of, you know, key points do you want to make? What do you think are the key points we've already made and. Or how do people find you? How's that?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's. I mean, give yourself grace.

Oh, nice.

We all need grace. We do. It's especially day and age, it seems like, you know, it's a different world we live in than five years ago with the pandemic and a lot of the changes. We need to give ourselves grace. We need to give other people grace. There's a lot of anger and negativity out there. And I think that what fascinates me is people are focused on what the differences are instead of what the similarities are. I think we have more in common. And I know even from a political perspective, whatever it is, I've sat down with people on both sides and mediated through. And at the end, they realize they're like 80 to 90% aligned and they're focused on the negative instead of, you know, the differences. So I think we need to slow down. People can find me on LinkedIn, you know, Robert H. Bevan, or they can email me at Robert Octahedron app.

Robert at Octahedron. You're going to make them spell that.

O, C, T, A, H, E, D, R, O, N. It's a shape. Not one we use often, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not. Not an easy one. But at least they don't type my last name because that's a tough. That's even tougher.

Robert h. Bevin at LinkedIn. There you go. Rob, this has been so good. So good. I want to repeat the last things you said just as the leadership lessons. Give yourself grace. We all need grace. I love that. It's a different world we live in. It sure is. And it keeps changing and it's changing fast. You pointed out that there's a lot of anger and negativity. And what we know, you and I both know that having a common enemy allows people to pull together. The problem is that we've become polarized so that the enemy is each other and we're all in this together. So, yeah, getting past the angering negativity, people are focused on the differences more than the similarities. And you and I have both run, I'm certain that you've run exercises with groups where you, you know, you ask them to search for differences and in the search for differences, they uncover similarities.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. I. Thank you. This been, you know, we've had a couple of conversations and it never seems long enough and, and yet everything, it's. It's like there's such beauty in, in uncovering this. Robert Bevan, Robert h. Bevin on LinkedIn. Excellent. Thank you for joining me on One Sharp sword.

Thank you, Dr. P. Alrighty.

This is One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters Most. My guest today was Robert Bevan, and I am Dr. P. Dr. Wayne Purnell, your host, your guide and your coach on this journey. We'll see you here again next time. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening to One Sharp Sword Cutting through to what Matters Most with outfluncer Dr. Wayne Purnell. For more information, please go to onesharpsword.com.