Leading Before the Title: Influence, Culture, and Growth with Ryan George

You're listening to One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most with Outfluencer, Dr. Wayne Purnell. Welcome to One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most. I'm your host, Dr. P, Dr. Wayne Purnell, your host, your guide, and your coach on this journey. Today I am joined by Brian George. He is the Chief Marketing Officer at Docupace Technologies and a recognized leader in the wealth management technology space. Brian's career trajectory weaves together such areas of marketing, leadership, and culture, and he's known for developing teams where ideas are welcomed and people are genuinely supported. Let's find out about how he's learned to balance ambition, boundaries, and care for his people. Welcome, Ryan.

Thank you, sir. I'm so pleased to be here. That's such a lovely introduction.

It's, it's great to have you here. Uh, and, and the reason you're here is because two things. I reach out to leaders from around the world and just find all kinds of interesting things about the personal journey and it's so relatable. And the other is that your journey in fintech, right, finance and technology, it's like, it's incredible because for you, people are first and culture matters. And that is a sweet spot for me. So I love sharing that message. So I'm really glad you're here.

I'm excited about the conversation.

Yeah, talk to me then. Let's, let's jump into the conversation. Talk to me a little bit about, um, I mean, you didn't start at Docupace and you didn't start as a chief marketing officer, and you also didn't get into people management right away. And a CMO is not typically involved in people, and culture the way you are. So I just, I would love to have you talk just a little bit about, well, yeah, you, you studied what in college? You, right? So what were your key influences that got you to where you are? And then let's talk about culture where you are.

So that, it's an interesting story. So I, uh, I'm glad I graduated from the University of Texas at Austin. Um, I have a degree in public relations and my Funny story about having a degree in public relations is, um, I literally checked the box because I thought it was something that sounded cool. I didn't really know anything about public relations, um, but when I got in, I realized that it, uh, it was a very acclaimed public relations school. I think at the time it was like number 3 in the world, and I thought— and I was one of 50 people that got in— I thought, well, I guess I better try this thing out if I'm in this sort of small group at this illustrious school. So I graduated from UT And it was the early 2000s. The economy wasn't always the best. And so I ended up as a registered rep. So I was somebody who answered the phone, you know, thank you for calling such and such and how can I help you? And that was not for me, I could tell you. But I will say the year and a half or so that I did, did that job, it helped me build some skills that I have still using today. One is learning to think on your feet. And learning to be able to understand people and hear them. But also I had to get licensed and had to go deeper into what you would normally think of as a part of like a, in a wealth management space. And so that gave me this baseline knowledge that I still dip into today. And I think that that's a critical piece and why, where I find, have found value is being able to really understand not only the technology side, but also sort of how the business ticks.

Oh, that's great. So how did you get into the financial side of things? I mean, you, you know, the, from a, like a call center kind of, yeah, I'm, you know, in customer support and or customer retention.

So I, I know you, you've interviewed people all over the world. I don't think you've heard this one before. So I got into that field because my grandfather was the maintenance person at the building and basically strong-armed the CEO into giving me an opportunity to get a job. So Thank you, Grandpa. Um, thank you, Papa, for, for help basically kicking off my career. But what he did, and like anybody else, and I would say this time in age, is, you know, if you know somebody who's young, find a way to give them a shot. Because what he did is gave me an opportunity to show my worth. It wasn't— didn't give me a career. He didn't give me, uh, you know, he gave me an opportunity to work, um, and I was able to take that opportunity and run with it. Okay, and, and this was in a financial Yes, it was at a mutual fund investing firm.

Gotcha. Okay. Because it was like, so where does the financial part of PR weave together? And it was in a financial firm.

Yes, sir. So then I started doing, um, so I was still an individual contributor. I ran the PR department, um, for a while. Um, and it was, I had the benefit of being a, um, uh, working for a leader who was really media savvy and really media connected. And so we did lots of media. We were, you know, I was, I think literally the first day at my job as a PR person, I booked somebody on CNBC. To me, that was like, you know, that was a moment of like, hey, you can do this job, right? That's the aha. Like, I'm no longer an imposter. I'm, I'm good at it. And that was a really a big, that was a big change for me because it got, got, got me thinking fast. And I, what I learned in that role, I think the biggest takeaway was journalists really value responsiveness. They really value people who can deliver them, like, they have a need, and whoever can fill that need the quickest and in the best way, they're gonna come back to you, right? So, that's where I learned to sort of really start managing people in a way of, of managing connections in a way, where making that human connection, right? So, like, taking the time to actually understand who Dr. Wayne is. And even though you're just a professional contact, I think that has really led to where I am on the people side, which is, You know, let's forget titles, let's forget roles where we come from. Let's spend some time making that connection with each other because in the end we're all humans and that's what we need.

That's awesome. That is, that's so great. And that's how I do my business. That's how I value doing business with people. Years and years and years ago, decades ago, there was a telephone commercial when when people were moving from rotary dials to push-button phones, um, when there were still phones. Yeah, why in my day, uh, and the, and the commercial was reach out because, um, the best business calls are personal. And I just— it was a slogan that just stuck with me.

Um, that resonates with me today. That, yeah. The, I, I think, you know, I strongly believe this, that making a connection with people and understanding them and actually becoming a true friend, not somebody who looks over their shoulder just to see who else is in the room that they can go talk to. Like, I think I've found that that has really stood out, um, in business because like those other, there's lots of those other people who, who are looking over the shoulder or waiting or trying to have this surface level conversation.. And if you're looking to have a more deeper connection, you're going to stand out with the people that you're interacting with.

Yeah, yeah, it does. It does make you stand out. Presence. It's, I mean, it's something that I help leaders with because the distractions that are pulling at each of us at any given moment. I mean, think about how many times your phone dings. And for someone in leadership, It's not just, it's not just social media giving you an alert. There's all kinds of stuff. And so to be so present, just focused, grounded in the moment for this other person, it matters so much.

It's very difficult. And I think with— go, so just moving forward, I'll show how I got to team. So yeah, I was in a department, um, where I joined as the senior corporate writer, which is the most official boring vanilla title I've ever had in my life. Luckily, I didn't have that title too long, but I, that was the bottom of the organization. And within 3 years, I had moved from being the lowest on the totem pole to running the, I was running the department. What's interesting about people stepping into leadership roles, I was leading in the department and I led the department for a year before I was ever put in the official role of the head of the, the marketing department. And so I think sometimes people want their careers to move fast, and, but sometimes those things that, steps that you need to take, like do the, do the work before the reward, may, um, that, that may, because I, the reason I was, I think, effective as a people leader specifically in that role is I was leading the group without any organizational authority. I was leading the group based on influence, support, relationship, both internally in the department and outside of the department. And I think that, that put me in the position to best lead that group because I was in there with them. I was— they knew who I was. They knew the work I did. They knew that I was working just alongside them, just as hard as they were. And so I think that that has helped me be a leader that I am now because that gave me a sort of an effort to learn on the, learn on the go. Yeah.

So you had to learn what actually motivated each person. The term is positional power, right? And you didn't have that, right? So, so you learned your people, you learned what mattered to them, you supported them along the way. That's, it's kind of huge.

And it was hard. I don't want to like, to your listeners and the people you work with, I want to be very clear, this was not an easy road. Two things that stand, two moments really stand out. One is We did a 360 review, um, like, uh, analysis, you know, like people, like a leader review, like what is it called, like a 360 and, uh, right, review for feedback. And the feedback I got from both my fellow team members and other leaders outside the department was not good. Um, it was, I mean, it was to the point where, you know, it was like you think you take the littlest thing personally, like you ignore the good feedback and you focus on those two things that I I, I didn't— I was appalled at the way that they were describing how I was showing up, which the truth is, how they see me show up was the truth, like not how I thought I was showing up. And so that was tough. And then the other piece was, I remember the day I had, um, I had gone and run an errand, and I looked and saw that the job that I was quote unquote performing in, um, was post— the company had posted it to on LinkedIn to stop hiring for that position. And I didn't even know. They didn't even tell me about it. And that was a hard, that was a hard moment. But that was the right thing. They were not only looking for the internal candidate, but they were looking to see, make sure the internal candidate matched what was available in the marketplace. I understand all that now. At the time, probably not so much. But, and so those are the lessons that I think that making that transition from being an individual contributor to being sort of a leader of the organization it comes with some tumultuous times. It comes with some, some things that aren't going to necessarily go the exact way that you want. And in finding your way through those and understanding the growth that you need to do in order to get there, I think is really— I mean, it really can set yourself up for success.

I think that is the success path because the journey changes you. Now, you were very clear about the path you wanted. You were pretty clear that, hey, this role, actually, I'm in it, I'm doing it, I actually want it. Um, and you were pretty clear about that, so you were willing to stay in. Like, um, I'm, I'm recapping this, Ryan, because, um, the leadership lessons here are so valuable, I think. As individual lessons. There was feedback. You took it. You didn't— you got over taking it personally. It's like, okay, it's information, right? Instead of, oh, you know, they've, they've said bad things about me, I'm a bad person, all those things that could come up. You let all that go and you're like, okay, it's information. What do I do with it? The company is posting your job. Okay, that's information. It feels personal, like they didn't even come to me, poor me. And you got over it and you got through it. You kept a focus and a vision about what you wanted. You made relationships work. And it seems like a lot of it was done intuitively, which is kind of magical because, because that's not intuitive for most people.

Yeah, it, it's, it, I appreciate you say that. It has become, it comes from hard work. I think the, there's a third leg of the story that I think is critical too, is during this time I was being recruited for positions of other organizations. And what I learned was when you have skills that are displayable or representable, representable and can transfer to different roles in different organizations, you're gonna have people come for them and look for them. And understanding that you're going to use your talents in the right way for the right people, I think, is an important, important lesson. Like, there's always going to be somebody who will offer money, but we don't work for money. I work for life. And so the— this idea that, like, oh, this person can help me do this thing. Well, I don't want to help that thing. Like, that's not what I'm here for. And I think that that is a key part of when you face a challenging time at a job or you know, things aren't going exactly as you want, just remember who you're doing it for and why you're doing it. I think matters is probably sometimes overlooked.

Oh, you are singing my song. This is so good. It's so good. Um, because what you just said is all about purpose, right? When you're, when you're living, when you're living in your purpose, you wake up and you go, okay, What am I doing this for? Oh, who am I doing this for? Oh, how does that affect someone else's life? Like, you know, it feels sometimes when you're in a large organization especially, it can feel like I'm just another, you know, a cog in the wheel, another cog in the wheel. I could just, you know, anybody could do this, whatever. And you— and when you get past that and you go, you know what, but today I'm gonna make a difference in a dozen people's lives because I'm going to make their jobs easier and their life easier.

So, so it's great. I ended up leading 17. I had a department of 17, not including myself. 15 of them were professional young women, um, which was an interesting challenge being, you know, a young person myself, um, and really bonding with them and be— in helping play lots of roles within their lives, whether it was friend, boss, big brother, advisor, all those things. And that was something I really liked for that. And you mentioned being purposeful. There's, there's two— you talk about one sharp sword. There's two sides of being purposeful. When you are really purposeful and intentional about something, you leave yourself vulnerable to things that happen. So in my specific case, we ended up selling the company. And the people who bought us had no interest in the people who had been running the company prior to that. And so they sent, you know, sent me away in a pretty poor way. And, um, so there I was, there I was with all these things that I thought were critical, important, and set me up, set me apart, were then just unequivocally ripped away from you and said, like, basically, we don't value these things. And so you have somewhat of like, I'm sure everybody who has these sort of moments in their career, they wonder Am I doing the right thing? Did I approach it in the right way? Like, why do— why do this— does this person not value those things? And so that's— that was the— I want to say fall from grace. It wasn't the fall from grace, but that was the challenge of the moment of, hey, are you really going to be about these things? Or are you not? Is this really important to you? Or is it not?

And I think it was a— it was actually a challenge of grace. It was like, can you be in it and recognize that Uh, it's a matter of this or something better, and that the reason that they cleaned house was to leave you a new journey and a new path.

Yeah, because I think people think their career trajectory is going to be like this sort of up to, up to the right type, um, trajectory, and it just, it often doesn't go that way. But there's value in it going down.

I've never seen it go that way.

True, but you know, there's value in the hard times.

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like lifting weights, right? You start with even a 10-pound weight, and 10 pounds, after you lift it a few times, that gets heavy. Um, and so then you're pumping it and it's like, okay, and then you come back to it and you do it again. You come back to it and you do it again, and suddenly 10 pounds isn't enough, you need 15. But the, the weight hasn't changed. You have. And that's like, that's the key to getting through the hard times. I forget who said it, but it was, don't pray for easier times, pray to get better. Um, it might have been a Zig Ziglar quote. It's one of those, like, you, when you get better, everything around you gets better. And so, you know, you've leveled up. And I think I want to bring it back to you and culture. I think your nature is that you see the potential in other people and you, you're actually a person who sees that and moves towards it and helps others get better.

Well, I think culture, so culturally, I think you mentioned about CMOs not always getting involved in culture. I think they should. Number one, because I firmly believe that your people are your strongest marketing arm that you have. If you have people that are embodiment of your culture, are living, thriving at what you're doing as a business, you're naturally gonna attract top talent. You're naturally gonna attract top clients. Projects are gonna go well, like that sort of thing. And so I am lucky enough to have worked with, you know, CEOs and HR heads that are open to, you know, me somewhat stepping on into their territories in terms of helping drive culture. But I think that'd be, but it's because they felt the same way. They felt that people people really are the thing that is most important and most critical to the success of the business. And so I'm, that's a big part of it. I think if you were to ask my team, one of the reasons that they like our group or they like working here is that they never feel unsupported. And what I mean by that is not that I go back behind them and do their work or all those things. What they feel is I'm gonna be tasked with something and I feel comfortable stretching myself because I know that if it doesn't go right, It's okay. And I think that, that, but, but I feel comfortable enough to A, ask for help and B, give something a try and know that if I don't do it perfectly on my first try, then I'm not gonna get my hand slapped. Right. And I think that, that I always tell people that that's, you know, people don't get fired for messing up. They get fired for not putting in the effort and not doing the job and not doing like, those are the things that make people perform. It's not messing something up.

That's awesome. That's really, that's really great that it's not a gotcha culture, right? Where it's like, oh, I saw you do this. Or I recently been involved with an organization where one of the team leaders, he's still growing in his leadership capacity. And for him, He was clocking in his team. Well, this person was 3 minutes late. It's like, right? And you laugh and you laugh, right? It's like, uh, yeah, the, the role that this, uh, of this team leader, it doesn't demand that his people are in at a very specific time. It demands that the job gets done because it's a, uh, it was tech support. Like, so it's like, can they be there when they're needed?

Well, it's, it's so hard. The people part, I, I have often told people the hardest thing you're ever going to do is manage another person. Like, you think you have this, like, control. You basically have no control. Um, everything you've done is— you do is try to guide them and coach them into something. Like, it's in the end whether they do it or not. Um, I'm not a punitive person in general, so I don't feel like that It would never work for me to work sort of like a command and control type department. Like the, um, because the people, the people who log on every day, we are distributed workforce. So people, I don't face to face with my team, the people who log on every day log on because they want to. Um, and I use the metaphor of the door, right? If you're putting your door on the handle to come into the office, and if that's not giving you energy, then it's taking energy away. And the latter is not a place that I want to be.

I love that.

Yeah.

If as you enter, you're not, you're not feeling the energy.

And I'm not Pollyannaish about it. Like, no, there are bad days. There are days that are tougher than others. There are days that like, you didn't sleep well, or stuff at home is not going the right way. Or maybe you don't feel like— I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking on the majority is it fulfilling? And, but it's, I'm not just saying it's like the things you're doing every day fulfilling, but is it like the overall experience, the people you work with, who you work for, all those things, are those fulfilling or not? And I would be willing to take less money, work more if I know that those things will be there.

That's so great. So I'm teasing out values as you're talking. One is that you do have a learning organization. That it's, you know, mistakes are really not mistakes unless they're done over and over and over again. And that you learn from them and that's how you grow, which is great. There's great tolerance for that. I love the idea of does what you do give you energy that, you know, I think you have a responsibility to bring the energy as well. And if every time you show up, you're like, oh my gosh, you know what?

Well, that's a critical piece. So as a chief marketing officer, part of our role with myself and my team is to bring the positive energy. Like, it's a core value. It's a core requirement to what we do. Like, there are people around this business who have very critical, very difficult jobs that they need our energy. To help lift them up. Like, it's part of what we do. I'm not saying we're cheerleaders, but sometimes we may function in that role, um, of lifting somebody up because it's— you might have to—

part of what we do. Yeah, yeah. I, uh, I'm a big fan of be that beacon, right? Be the beacon of light for somebody else because there's so much out there. It's so easy to get lost in kind of the, the dark pull. And it's like when you show up and you go, I've got this direction, I've got this thing I love. If you don't— if you don't love your life, come with me. I'll show you, maybe you'll love this part of the life. And it's— I think that's so good. I think that that's just like, just a really positive way of inviting others. I'm a fan of lift as you lead. And I think that's one way of doing it.

Yeah, I do think there are limitations, right? So if I had a team of 50, I probably couldn't lead the same way that I lead today. Um, sure. And I think that that's something to keep in mind is finding— so the way to answer that, I think, is to find out your lieutenants and build your structure that that message is carried regardless of hierarchy. So like you're the next level down, they have that similar understanding of like you don't have to be there for every meeting or be there for every conversation. That's hard. It's hard to keep that together, hiring the right people. In sort of building that team culture. There also, I would caution against your own team carving up and building their own wall within the organization saying, well, that's them, not us. We're, our team's great. Like that sort of mindset, I think can be really challenging. And sort of undermine what you're hoping to do.

I'm, yeah, that's really, that's an important insight. Ryan, the, the idea of silos. You didn't say it that way. But that's really when, when someone, it's kind of this internal tribalism that happens in organizations, our team, our stuff, our resources, when multiple cross-functional teams, you could move so much faster when you, when you share these resources that are You know, one person's doing research on something and one person's doing the same research, slightly overlaps. Yep. What happens if you share it?

Or if one person may have one idea and another person have a similar idea, but the two ideas together actually become the thing that can become real, right? And I think that that's it. So there's, I think there's some fundamental pieces to that. What is like, don't seek credit, share credit. So like, if you seek credit, I think you, you're gonna undermine the ability. And if you share credit, then there's never gonna be like, it's never gonna stop coming, right? Because people always want to give credit to those who are sharing it with others and who are saying it wasn't me, it was the group. These other people helped happen. And so that like lends that mindset lends itself to people recognizing the work that you're doing. If somebody does great work but says, 'Look how great this work is and look how great I did.' Nobody's going to respond to that in a positive manner. It's true. Even if it's factually correct, that doesn't mean like that people respond that way.

It is true. People want the mirror and they want to know that it touches more broadly. You know, if you think back to the Super Bowl, The interviews afterwards by the winners were all about we. It wasn't, yeah, I had a good time, or yeah, I played really well. It was, uh, yeah, we the team, my brothers. Like, they were talking about themselves as this moving organism that, that they each relied on each other.

I love that. That's the same thing happened in college football with the Indiana team. Like there was, it was the group stands out together, not as the individual stands out. And I think what that gives you, and like we, I think we've all, at least many, many of us remember what it's like to be on a high performing team, like a sports team or a competitive team and realize like what really made that great. And it's really the, the person next to you or the person across from you and them succeeding. And if you have a bad game, and they have a great game, you're just like genuinely happy for them and not like, well, I'll do better next time. Like, I think these things, it's right in front of our face in culture all the time. And yet I don't know if people give it enough care and thought or even realize the power of it.

So this is, this is great. The, you know, the question that comes up for me is who's at your shoulder, right? Who, who is there to support you and who are you responsible for supporting as a team leader? As a team leader, it's you. You're shoulder to shoulder with everybody, right? That, that everybody on your team, your job is to reduce friction for them to do their jobs.

Well, I, I used a metaphor in an all-team call, uh, a couple months ago. I'm a big fan of medieval England, the, the sort of the wars against the Anglo-Saxons and the Britons and the Danes. And I was using the term that the shield wall, that the reason the shield wall, which is where all the soldiers would line up and basically form a wall that would block the incoming army, it's really just as strong as the person next to you and the person next to you. Like, basically, your left arm becomes the shield, your right arm becomes the attack, but you need the person to your left to protect you as you attack. And so together, the shield wall can be unbreakable. Individual, the shield wall is easy for the army to break through. And so I think that that type of mindset is exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah, well, it's what you're talking about. It's awesome. You know, I love this. So what do you think your team would say about you now? You know, your first 360 wasn't so great. What do you think they would say about your leadership? You know, where are you— where do you see yourself as really strong? And where do you see yourself as in this growth place?

So I think from a strengths standpoint, I think it's supported I think they, they definitely feel supported and they feel stretched, meaning that they're not afraid to try something that they may not be an expert in because they know that I'll, I'll be there to support them. And that could come in lots of different ways. That can come from providing the right feedback when somebody's trying something new, like giving accurate feedback and giving it in a way that, that lands in the right way. So that doesn't necessarily prevent them from trying again. I think the other piece, um, probably is in, um, finding the right ways to manage the interpersonal relationships within the team. So they can all be super close to me and not be close with each other. And I think getting them to understand the importance of them being close to each other, I think, is, is important. Um, Things that I could grow at, I think one—

let me pause you before you go there. So managing the relationships within the team, are you actively helping them engage with each other?

Yes, I generally, when I assign an assignment, I generally, it's like a twofold, twofold way, which is one person is the doer and another person is responsible for helping them., or reviewing their work. That's because I strongly believe as like a creator of content, you can't be the person who reviews the content like that. Just, you, you see, you don't see things that are right in front of your face. And so we generally have a rule where somebody, I'll assign it to say Nora, who's on my team, and have Ashley be the reviewer. And so that, that helps, I think, build those connections because I don't, it doesn't come back to me until it's ready to go. And so basically I, it cuts down on my workload because I have a finished piece or finished item that's ready to go. All I need to do is just do a cursory review of it.

That's awesome. Okay. So, so it's about perspective, which is, which is what good leadership is. It's what, you know, really strong coaching is. You bring a perspective that the other person can't see and using the buddy system, I think is phenomenal. Where you are, yeah, you're, you've got one person doing, you've got somebody else from the outside who's going, oh, you know what, the way I see it, this could be shifted just this way.

We also do that same thing when we're meeting with departments outside of our team. So like, I rarely will ever have one person on my team meet with an outside, like the sales team or the, the product team. And for that, it's not necessarily strength in numbers because we're not fighting, but it's more about sharing, okay, I heard this. Did you hear this? Okay, I heard this too. Like, and so you get sort of an additional perspective of what happens in the meeting. So like, that's just some general ways I think that we've tried to set up the team. We also spend, like I mentioned before, we're a distributed workforce. So every day, Mondays we do 30 minutes, but every day other than that, we have a 15-minute standup right in the middle of the day. And the reason for that is less about work, but more about no matter what happens to get a time with each other each day. So you could be heads down the entire rest of the day, could be traveling, but try to make sure you can make that meeting as much like that's a priority to make that meeting because it's again like, hey, how does your son's baseball game go last night? Or how did this happen? And that sort of just sort of casual conversation, while scheduled, which isn't the best, but scheduled. I think that's an important part of keeping the team as a team. Do you facilitate that? Yeah, we all, we, I, I, because I am Chief Marketing Officer, I tend to be when I'm in the meeting, they tend to wait, wait, like I drive the conversation, but I also, they, they're instructed to meet whether I'm there or not. I travel quite a bit, so I can't always make the meeting, but They do, even if it's only 2 of the 3 of the team members, I still instruct them to meet just to check in and know that somebody else is out there.

This is great, Brian. I really appreciate your style. You know, it's sort of like, well, this is just what I do. You know, this is, and it's not like, this is what, you know, you need to do in order to make this right. It's more, this is just what I do. You know, I help people talk to each other and understand each other. And I love that. Let's go back to your growth edge. Where do you think you're growing?

So where I think I could grow is getting more formalized and stair-stepped growth of my team, meaning, um, how do I get you from X to Y, um, and not just love your job and love what you do and love who you do it with, but actually push their career in a way so they can get to the next position. I think an effective leader has a time frame with their employee, and your job is in reality is to try to get them to their next— get them prepared and ready for their, whatever their next step in their career may be. And I think sometimes I may unintentionally and unconsciously not focus on that because I love working with them and don't want them to go. Um, and I think that that's, that's not necessarily what, how I want to, their outcome to be. And so I need to work better about making sure I'm helping them get to match with their career is their, their career. Maybe I want to be here. Which is fine. But also, I need to understand how— what are their goals? What do they want in life?

And how can I help facilitate that? That's amazing. That's amazing. Oh, so good. What if, if I were to say, okay, so the top 3 leadership lessons over the past 2 decades that you think you've learned, they'd be what?

Figure out the right people to work for. The first, like, because it all comes, it trickles down. Like, if you're constantly playing the shield between the top of the company and your team members, then you're not in the right spot. Like, you shouldn't play that role. You should be the carrier of messages downward. You shouldn't necessarily have to have, you know, it stops with you and doesn't go like that sort of shielding your team. That's one. I think two is, however much time it takes, understand the power of it getting bumpy. Understand where, if everything comes easy, you're not pushing yourself. And so understanding what those bumpy times and how they can lead to personal growth. I mentioned before I had lost my job and been laid off and basically told, yeah, you no longer work here. Um, that was an identity crisis for me. Um, and I sat in, I sought therapy and sought assistance and help. And he told me, and I think I've shared this with you before, he said, I'm so happy you're here. You're 39 years old at the time. And I generally have seen people who are 59 years old at the end of their career just realizing this. And they realize that like life has passed them by before they reach this point. And he's like, you don't understand how lucky you are that you're reaching it now. And I, I'd say that years, years later, I still repeat that because that's something that I, I think I've taken to heart and tried to live my life that way. Number 3 is understand that everybody has these lives and everybody has the life and you're managing their life and their job and understanding that people will go through bumps. They may, may have stuff that takes their focus away from their job at the moment. But focus on the big picture. Like, don't, don't be too quick to be punitive or punish people when they're not performing it the right way. Find out how you can get them back to performing versus how you can punish them for not performing. I think that, that, that has been more important than almost anything else because people go through cycles, people go through tough times, and I think if they see you as a resource that can help, they can be safe with, and they can re— like find support, then they'll be loyal. They'll work hard for you and they'll basically run up whatever hill you ask them to run up.

That's so great. I think it was Patton who said, um, you know, if I stood outside of a, of a door and gave this long line of people $20 for coming through the door, that would be one thing. But to stand on this side of the door and have people come through because they want to, because they're recognized, because there's something in it for them That's leadership. And it's— that's what you're creating. It's so— those are, those are 3 strong leadership pieces. Figure out the right people. Um, I think understand the power of the— of it being bumpy is, is almost like a book title, right? The Power of Bumpy. Um, and, and to recognize we all have our own lives, we all have ups and downs, and if you're in this gotcha or punitive environment, it doesn't help. So, you know, really recognize that we all have ups and downs, we all have seasons, we all have, uh, times that we're at our best and can lift others. We all have times that we just need to, you know, withdraw for a little bit. So, yeah, for sure. Um, one of the other things is the hardest thing you'll do is to manage— is manage another person. I pulled that out from the notes that I was taking, and That is so true. You know, it's really, that's really great. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you were hoping we'd cover during, during our short time together?

No, I think we cover everything. If anybody's listening and wants to hang out, become friends, you can reach me on LinkedIn at Ryan George, Ryan George, or email me at Ryan_George@docupace.com, which is D-O-C-U-P-A-C-E.

I would love to meet you. That's awesome. All right, so yeah, a couple ways. Look him up on LinkedIn, and he's inviting— Ryan is inviting you to reach out to him directly as well, which I always appreciate. So really amazing having you here. I, I'm reflecting on just— it was a— it was So much in a short time, and, uh, I just, I really appreciate it, Ryan.

Thank you. Thank you.

Love having you. Yeah, really good, really good to have you here. All right, my guest today, Ryan George. You can find him on LinkedIn or, uh, reach out to him at DocuPace. I am Dr. Wayne Purnell, Dr. P, your host, guide, and coach on this journey This is One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most. Thanks for being here. We'll see you here next time. Thanks for listening to One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most with Outfluencer, Dr. Wayne Purnell. For more information, please go to onesharpsword.com.