Saying Yes Before You’re Ready. Choosing Growth When It’s Hard with Christine Maguire

You're listening to One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most with Outfluencer, Dr. Wayne Pernell. Welcome to One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most. I'm your host, Dr. P, Dr. Wayne Pernell, your host, your guide, and your coach on this journey. Today I am joined by Christine McGuire. She's the EVP and Chief Business Officer at RVO Health, where she helps shape how millions of people can access trusted health information and care. She's led at the highest levels of digital media, from TripAdvisor to Condé Nast, to scaling health platforms that truly impact lives. And she didn't start in media at all. From renovating the United Nations to running global commercial strategy, Christine's journey is bold, nonlinear, and full of leadership lessons about saying yes before feeling fully ready. This is kind of fun. Welcome, Christine McGuire.

Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

I'm so excited to be talking to you again. We had a brief conversation a couple of months ago and touched base, and now I get to have you on the program because your journey is pretty special. So I really wanted you to talk about it. You started in construction management and then finance and pivoted into media and marketing and commercial leadership. Like, you're, you're scaling it at an incredible— in an incredible way, in an incredible industry. So can you talk about a little bit about what you're doing now and kind of how did you get there? And it is nonlinear. Every leadership journey is nonlinear.

So Yeah, I mean, I most certainly didn't build the United Nations, but I, I did work for Skanska, which was a construction management company that was renovating the multiple blocks in New York City of the United Nations and also worked for a few years on our IBM on-call account. So we had IBM data centers and office app buildouts and all of that across the nation. And that job actually came to me When I was in college, I hadn't graduated yet. I was in my senior year, and, um, it was an opportunity to, to take a full-time role and still somehow juggle 18 credits and finish my last semester. And I think I took it because, um, it was a great opportunity at the time, and jobs were not easy to get. And come, you know, a few months, almost a year later, in the financial Crisis hit. So, thankfully, I got in early and figured out how to balance both, you know, a busy final semester of college with a new job. But I was there for about 3 and a half years and learned a ton, had great people. But what I realized as I took a step back is growth in that industry was really in the field in project engineering and project management. And that definitely wasn't the career path I was taking. So I started to—

What did you study in college? Like you used to—

Business management and accounting.

Okay.

Yeah. So I picked my head up and started to look across other industries and found myself at Vevo, which was a music video startup spinning off from Universal Music Group. No better place to be than in the music industry in your 20s. So that was the start of my foray into digital media.

That's amazing. Did you work with any fun groups?

Yeah, I mean, we had artists coming in almost every day, concerts 3 to 4 times a week. It was—

oh darn, hard life.

I know, it was incredible, but it was also a build, you know. We were sort of building from the ground up, so lots of, um, challenging things, lots of new things for me in digital media and video and CTV that now obviously is, uh, mainstream, but at the time definitely wasn't, um, and was there for about 4 and a half years, um, did everything across finance and operations and monetization and operations. And, um, and then moved to Condé Nast where, um, you know, very different in the sense that, uh, moving from a startup to a 100-year legacy print publishing company, um, had different challenges. And we were really there to build the digital transformation and accelerate the digital side of the business across the company.

How did that work? How did that work?

You know, I think it sort of first was an audit of what was happening digitally, what the audience and revenue were, what the goals needed to be to really supercharge digital as print was declining. You know, it was everything from replatforming all of the different websites onto a singular unified backend to, you know, looking at the monetization paths in the white space that were opportunities to building audience development and analytics functions that hadn't existed there to really build up the audience. So I worked for the chief digital officer. My role was sort of twofold. One was, you you know, his chief of staff, business operations. And then the other was, um, I ran all of the advertising teams across the, uh, the brand. So everything outside of sales and marketing, but, um, you know, there was 20+ publishers, lots of different stakeholders to manage, um, and lots of transformation, um, everything from sort of foundational things like implementing Salesforce to acquiring companies and integrating them.

That's quite a lift, right? And it's also quite a shift. I mean, you went from Vevo to Condé Nast. Did you come in knowing that you were going to— you called it replatforming, which is an amazing term. Did you know that you were going to be is it's really about standardization, isn't it? Right? Did you know, like, when you got there, did you know what the landscape looked like for you?

I had no clue. I, you know, I think I went into every job really, including the one I just started, you know, really having an outside-in view, which looks very different to when you come inside and really understand what's there and what's opportunities, but also what's macro risks and what you're working with to really supercharge that and some basics that need to be put into place. So, Conde Nast was a huge learning curve for me. I took on a lot in a very short amount of time and grew a lot in my career. But you don't really know until you go in and you sort of tackle each challenge as it comes.

Yeah, so part of the podcast, one of the things I like to pull out is what were some of the challenges and what were your, what were your thinking processes? Like, that's, it's amazing to me to learn how different leaders in different verticals or different leaders just as different humans think and then through it all, there's this thread of, yeah, and we all decide based, you know, like, we get through it, we decide, we keep going, right? So some of the biggest challenges for you and some of the biggest decision points, like, what stands out for you?

Um, I mean, there was definitely a lot at, at Condé Nast. I would say, um, my experience there was the art of influencing and make getting things done. You know, we had a central digital team, but, you know, brands that sort of operated editorially and commercially independent. So there was a lot of influence to make sure that they were doing the right things editorially and digitally and with social and all of the growing channels at the time. And then commercially, sort of how we were thinking about new products and monetization and operations and things, video, all the things that sort of needed to be done on that side. So I ran a team that was central. Um, another part of the team was embedded within those brands, and then I had, you know, a ton of different stakeholders at each one of the brands that I, I had to deliver for, um, since I sat centrally as like a, a center of excellence. So You know, I think the main thing is, to your point earlier, very clear communication, making sure that everybody understands what the goals are and then doing what you say you're going to do. My old boss used to say, make big promises and keep them.

Nice. I like that. Right. That's simple, but it's the truth. And it starts with yourself.

Yeah.

Right. I mean, I'm working with some high-level VIP clients, and they're so on the go that it's easy to go, yeah, I'll get back to you, yeah. And, and it's like, no, no, make a promise, keep it. Make a really big promise. Do that for yourself first. Like, who are you becoming? I love that. I love that. Make a big promise and keep it.

Yeah, it's cool. So I would say, like, I mean, there was, there was tons of different challenges at Condé Nast, um, but Then I went to TripAdvisor in 2019, and that was a different form of, of challenge. I had walked into, you know, a large global team that needed to be restructured and a strategy needed to be implemented. I did a global tour. I did 3 different major sales kickoffs in EMEA, the US, and APAC. And then 2020 kicked off and we hit the ground running and had a great start to the year. We were 25% up year on year in bookings and were off to the races. And then come early March, everything started to fall out of the bookings and the pipeline. And, you know, the picture looks very different, but the reality is that didn't matter at the time. I think everybody was just really fearful of their health and their family and what was going on in this global pandemic. So That brought a whole different set of challenges and very different to what I thought I was walking into when I took the job and something no one could have foreseen. But, you know, we ended up having to take a step back. We were in travel. The US was shutting down. Planes were grounded. Restaurants were closed.

Globally, everything was shutting down.

Yeah. So we had to be realistic about what the business was going to look like and how we weathered the storm as a travel company. And had to make some significant, you know, changes in our cost structure. I had to cut over 50% of the team globally. Wow. Um, in April of 2020, um, which in hindsight was very hard to do, but the right choice given how long the pandemic really lasted and how, how long it took, you know, the borders to open up and things to get back to, um, to normal with travel. So yeah, that, that created a whole different set of challenges where where I, I made a choice to turn it into an opportunity. Like, there's a very rare moment when something like this happens, once in a century, and health and family and your own wellness comes first. But from a business perspective, you know, I saw it as an opportunity to give people growth, to stretch them across different things that they might not have had the opportunity to do as quickly. I saw it as an opportunity to build quickly and do things that we wouldn't have been able to do as a public company with quarterly earnings, to go and do things that, you know, were going to have us come out swinging at the other side of the pandemic. So, you know, we ended up building a culture and momentum that we were really proud of, but, you know, it definitely had its hardships throughout as well.

That's amazing. Uh, I want to just call out, I made a choice. That's first, I made a choice to turn it into an opportunity. And, um, that is— there are two really strong points in there that I just, I'd like to pause to go. First, choice. That is everything, because everything we do is about choice. And most people walk through their day at the whim of the supposed-tos, which means they're, they're following someone else's choice. So you made a choice— very empowering, very powerful— and the choice was to turn it into an opportunity, not to run and hide, not to judge, not to, um, throw up your hands and say, well, I guess we're done. It's no, I made a choice to turn it into an opportunity and You did that by drawing back and by gaining perspective. That is huge in terms of anytime anybody, any of us as humans, anytime we're faced with something that is stressful, anything that's stressful, it doesn't have to be a global pandemic. Draw back, right? Gain some perspective. And if you have to cut some things, you have to cut some things. But You know, it's a chance to grow, which is what you did. You drew back and you created this plan for beyond, which meant that you also knew somewhere deep down this thing that's a global pandemic that has everything shut down isn't going to last, right? I just think that there were so many lessons in that one piece that I wanted to pause and draw them out.

Yeah, I think your biggest growth opportunities come from the hardest times. And it's something I always tell my teams. But until you're in it and you have hindsight to look back and really understand how much you grew, it's hard for people to believe that in the moment. But it's most certainly true for my career.

Yeah, so how did you learn that? Because that's not taught in business school. Right. That's a— that's something that I teach in terms of mind state. You know, where are you going with— what are you doing that feeds what you said you wanted to do?

Yeah.

And yes, there will be obstacles. That's called growth. So where did you learn that?

You know, I think you, you learn it over time. I, I don't think I knew it in the moments earlier in my career, I think I just had a get-it-done attitude, put your head down, keep going despite insecurity, despite feeling like you don't know what you're doing. Love this.

I love this.

Or stress and things that maybe I wasn't listening to in my body. But I would say in the last few years, especially through COVID, which I know was a moment for everybody to reflect and think about things differently, I'm very mindful of it now. I know when things are hard. And I know how to articulate that in real time to teams and functions and businesses holistically on this is an opportunity if they think about it that way. And everybody's got to choose their hard. Everywhere is hard. And it's up to you on how you tackle that.

That's so good, Christine. This is great. What, um, it's, it's an interesting mix because for just in talking with you, because you're very straightforward and you think really logically, it seems like the, the— and you're projecting, you know, 6 or 8 moves into the future, like you can see things and it's got to line up this way and we will keep going. And then you throw out phrases like everyone has to choose their heart. And it's like, that is like there's this human thread that, or current that bubbles through you. Talk about how that shows up when you build culture.

Yeah, I think the human side is so incredibly important. I mean, I, I like to build strong cultures where people feel empowered. They feel secure to make decisions. They feel secure to fail and know that they're— that's a part of the overall process and a learning. I think culture is built from every single person in the organization, but it's definitely set from the top. So I try to be very, very clear on how I think about things and how I think about people showing up for each other. How they have each other's back, you know, how one person isn't going to get it done. And, you know, it's an ecosystem of different contributors that ultimately get us to the outcome. So there's, there's a lot of transparency and communication and realness that I put in pretty frequent communication as I message things that I hear is going on, get ahead of things that I know people are frightful to tackle and maybe past leadership hasn't enabled them or empowered them to do. And then I do more specific things. I like to invest in people in ways that get their minds out of their day-to-day and go to conferences and do things like Insights or DiSC to really get to know yourself better and get to know each other better. I started a speaker series in our New York office to get outside perspective coming in and have a moment where everybody can congregate and hear from different leaders in different industries with different perspectives. So I think culture is at the center of everything. And I think if people don't feel safe and empowered and like owners, then it's really hard to get the things done that you want to. And to have fun while you're doing it.

This is so good. The, um, you know, I was going to ask you, how do you, uh, how do you get their minds out of the day-to-day? And then you, and then you went into it, you know, you send them to conferences, you have them do, uh, personality and/or style assessments, which I think is amazing. Um, and a speaker series, powerful. Right. That's, that's so good. So these days, right, you've talked about your history. Let me get a little bit about what you're, what, what's a normal day for you. And, and, you know, a lot of times what gets people up in the morning is knowing that they're making a difference. You know, today my work makes a difference and it's probably for the end user. It's right. So because you're in a healthcare system, you're in a, you're in healthcare information. So talk a little bit about what RVO does and what's your role, what's your day-to-day, how big is it? Yeah, yeah, sounds like it has multiple offices.

So yeah, so I, so RVO Health is a joint venture between Red Ventures, which is a media holding company outside of Charlotte and Fort Mill. And Optum, owned by UnitedHealth Group. So a few years ago, they both put in assets. Red Ventures mostly put in media assets that they'd acquired, and Optum put in some of their core health, um, assets to run independently and accelerate outside of the ecosystem of Red Ventures or, um, Optum. And I run the media side of that, so I run all the media properties within the portfolio. So everything from Healthline, which is consumer health information in action, to Healthgrades, which is a marketplace to find doctors, so a patient-provider marketplace, Medical News Today that really serves more of the physician provider side, and then great brands like Psych Central and Greetus and a few others. So how—

Neo Health owns Psych Central?

Huh?

RVO Health owns Psych Central.

Yep.

Amazing. Yeah, that's great. I mean, all the, the names you've listed— Healthlines, Healthgrades, Medical News Today, Psych Central— um, those names that, that I know having worked in healthcare, having a, you know, my doctorate's in clinical psych. And, um, it's interesting. It's just interesting to, to hear how many are connected to this this one pivot point. So it's great.

Yeah. You know, I, after TripAdvisor, or as I picked my head up, I wasn't sure, you know, what was next. But my sister is a nurse practitioner. She works in stem cell transplant for oncology. My mom's been a nurse for 50 years. She has done private duty. And I got, you know, I've obviously seen you know, the great work and the great nurses that they are for years. But I think I got a different view into it during COVID but when I really understood sort of what we were doing sitting at home in, in this profession, media marketing, advertising, um, and what they had had to do to still go and care, uh, whether it was being a hospital or in private duty nursing, um, yeah. So whenever this opportunity came up, I had never thought of health as my next step in my career journey after being in music and travel and publishing. But there's something that really excited me. There's something that drove a lot of curiosity to better understand the healthcare system, to better understand different diagnosis and different drugs and how AI can really help all of that. And it's been 8 months. So I'm 8 months in. And it's been an incredible journey so far. Lots of learnings and still learning every day. I think that a lot's the same. A lot, you know, they're media businesses. I know how to run them. I know the headwinds. I know the opportunities. I know the things that we can transform and evolve. But really understanding, you know, the macro health landscape, you know, how pharmaceutical companies work, how regulatory and privacy is at the forefront of everything that we need to do, and building the guardrails around that for the consumer and the provider experience. So yeah, it's been— It's been incredible. My day-to-day, it's never— one day is never the same. So, I run all of the businesses, all of the P&Ls. So, you know, it's my job to obviously build the strategy, deliver on the business quarterly and annually to, you know, build our go-to-market strategy from a B2B perspective, diversify, build the team, the talent, make sure that the business is humming. So, you know, Every day looks different, whether I'm in market with partners and commercially, or we're, you know, prepping for internal meetings or board meetings, or, you know, there's roadmap reviews and milestone things that we're reviewing and pushing the business on. So it looks very, very different every day. And this week happens to be more on the commercial side where I'm in Arizona doing our sales kickoff for the year. So thrilled to be here in the nice weather and bummed that some people are getting stuck in New York during a blizzard.

Yes, weather is a funny thing. Cool. So is there— if you had maybe the top 3 things that were leadership lessons for you along the way. Um, and you reflected back just out of college all the way up to now. What do you think the top lessons as a leader really are?

Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I think during COVID the power of empathy, um, and showing where you are on your emotional journey as an opportunity for everybody to sort of be okay with where they are in their personal, family, career. There was so much happening during that time. So I sort of led from the front in that way, and I was very raw and candid on everything that was going on. In my life and how I was feeling, you know, week by week and what I was concerned about, what I was nervous about, what was giving me anxiety at night. And I felt it in real time being an unlock where everybody started to put their shoulders down and open up and feel more comfortable. I think that was, you know, an extremely rare time where, you know, everybody was nervous not knowing what was coming the next day. But it was a moment of discomfort for me to be that transparent in where I was in the journey and what was going on in my personal life and how I was feeling about all the changes that we were making. But I felt it be a real moment of inflection for everybody and felt a lot of change on the other side of it. I think the other thing is candor and transparency on things across the business and what's going well and what's not and where we need to push and be in as real time as possible. It's a hard thing to do because when you're a public company or when there's information that not everybody really can have access to or see all of it, it takes an art to be able to share what you need to share to to take people along the journey while also keeping confidential information confidential. But also, it's hard work to keep everybody up to speed and keep that drumbeat of communication going constantly.

So can I pause there for a second? Because I've worked with some large organizations, and it— I found it distressing as a consultant coming in and saying, well, how is this division going to learn about it? Or how are the line team members going to learn about this? And the answer at the time was, well, the managers will just tell them. The managers will sort of— It seems so dismissive. And you've got a very different kind of approach. And that is the hard work. You just talked about it being hard work. Can you talk about how do you make sure that your line team members, the people, you know, out in the trenches doing the work, hear about what is planned and what's the intention behind it? Because it's one thing to come to an executive team or a board and be transparent, cautiously transparent. These are the concerns. This is where we're heading. This is what's on my mind. Great. That seems straightforward. How do you make sure that trickles down, you know, thousands of people away?

It's really tough. And information is lost as it sort of travels and gets diluted. And then you hear back different pieces of it and So that's why it's a horrible game of telephone, right? Yeah.

It's like, and the message changes.

And there's no way to, to fix that perfectly without owning the communication and talking to everybody in a unified way together. So we have, you know, monthly sales meetings where there's a drumbeat of information. We have quarterly all hands across every single function. We have, um, product pod meetings, that all of the right stakeholders here are hearing all of the information at the same time. There's a lot of email and Slack communication that I do in real time. So I do feel the only time where the message lands consistently is when it comes from me. Otherwise, it is sometimes hard to get the same information, sort of, especially if it's nuanced, right? I think if it's pretty straightforward and something that's process or update-oriented, it's a bit easier. But Yeah, I think making sure that those forums are held as frequently as possible, but also that the information is as digestible and simple as possible. And you're making the most out of everybody's time with efficiency and effectiveness. So I believe in Jensen Huang's notion of one-on-ones. He doesn't have one-on-ones with his leadership team because he believes all of the information should be shared at the leadership level. He shares everything that he needs, that they need to know, and they all are operating off of the same information. I love that. I definitely operate with the same sort of candor across my leadership team. Haven't gotten to the point where I don't need to do one-on-ones, but that would be the goal where, you know, everything that's, that needs to come out both from them up or, or from me down is happening in that forum and everybody is working off of the same information.

I love that. It's like a cross-functional team at the executive level, which to my mind is as it should be. I very seldom use the should word. And it's like that communication, you know, it's a good thing. It's so good. I have so many more questions and I'm really delighted with the, the path of communication that you're talking about.

How—

you said a couple of things that, and that's why I'm pausing. How do— one, how do you communicate effectively, efficiently, and still serve that communication through empathy? And two, just a comment, which is I spoke with a gentleman who's working on his doctoral thesis around what happened when we went so hybrid and how we are so Zoom fatigued these days. And the reason is the, the communications we used to have in the hallway that were just a few minutes at a time now take an hour or more on a Zoom call. And, uh, And, and so you talked about, all right, it's going to be efficient, it's going to be effective and digestible. How do you make sure— like, I mean, I know that's your world. How do you, how do you do that?

Yeah, it's, it's not easy. I think I've, I've gotten good at mastering that art on constantly taking the lens of the most junior associate that wouldn't understand terminology or specific things, making sure it's wrapped in as much context as possible. But I personally am like a very visual voice person. So, you know, I make sure that there's, you know, as much sort of visual compliments as possible as we're talking through things. And I'm setting as much context verbally as I possibly can. So, you know, It's not easy. I think there's formats that I've played with in the past, like game show formats where we're doing interactive Q&A and things that people can guess and activating people through chat. It's a large team distributed everywhere. So it's typically virtual. And obviously, different office presences have more concentration of people in a room and managing that can be challenging too, where you have people in person and people virtually. But, you know, I don't know that there's a perfect way. I think that a lot can be done virtually. I think a lot can be done really effectively virtually. But I don't think the human connection will ever go away, nor should it. I think that's when everybody thrives and gets the best out of things. So to me, you know, there's a really strong balance in, in how you can both drive effectiveness virtually, which in some companies you need to anyway. Like when I was at TripAdvisor before the pandemic, the team was global. It was in 10 different markets. And no matter what, we needed to be on Zoom. So I think it's a necessity in some ways versus coming from Condé Nast where we had 23 fullers in the World Trade Center. And it was very much New York-centric in person. You know, I, I think there's a world where the, the hybrid, um, that's really intentional with the virtual versus in-person can work really well.

I agree with you. Um, the— and it's— yeah, it's, it's— there's nothing like in-person, and efficiency is, is through Zoom. How do you, how do you manage empathy? Through Zoom?

I'm a big person for real-life examples and quotes and podcasts. Speaking of the one that we're on, I listen to a lot of different leadership perspectives, and then I share those, and I make sure that everybody understands sort of how I'm seeing things, how I'm thinking about things. I joined in in the summer of last year. And in one of the all-hands that I had, I felt like I was hearing different noises and people not knowing sort of where we were going or not knowing how to think about how they get their work done. And I just walked through my leadership philosophy and how I think about setting everybody up to make decisions and raise the bar, but also, you know, take risks and be comfortable with that and know that that doesn't always come with success. You know, like one of, one of the quotes I shared was, a man asked his gardener why his plants grew so beautifully. The gardener replied, I don't force them to grow. I remove what stops them. So to me, that was a way for everybody to really land the message of You're empowered. Act like an owner. I will always celebrate people that take risks and move and want to sort of drive growth and change and experimentation. So, I've seen a lot of changes and I continue to reinforce that to make sure that everybody sees a change from sort of how they were operating before to how they need to. And then, you know, I flip to, how I spend my time personally, what I'm seeing happening in the business. There's a lot of personal anecdotes. There's a lot of things that I share that I think create the human side of empathy within my approach. But I'm always learning. I'm always watching other leaders. I'm always finding ways to evolve that. And I'm always listening and have as much of an ear to the ground to see what's happening and what's changing and how people are feeling and what's going to drive them. To make sure that it's, it's always on and it never stays static.

So good. So good. So what do you do for fun?

Great question. It's been a busy start to this new job with a lot to do. You know, I like to go down the Jersey Shore when the weather is nicer. I have a house down there. I have a niece and nephew that is almost 2 and 4, and I I babysit them quite a bit. I love spending time with them. You know, I, I enjoy spending time with family and friends. I'm a big traveler. I just came back from Seoul over a long weekend, so made it a quick trip, but it was a great trip. So yeah, I, I'm always busy. I'm always staying active, I think, for the of, you know, most recent, um, 6 to 8 months, there's been a lot of heads down just with the nature of having a new job and lots going on. But, um, you know, I, uh, I blend my time with wellness things, travel, family, and, um, and friends.

Amazing. So is there anything we haven't covered that you thought we might cover that you wanted to talk about?

No, I think this was a great session. I always find that they can go any way. And I think this one really honed in on the things that matter with leadership and nonlinear career journeys, which I talk about all the time. I actually have somebody right now that is moving from one role to a very, very different role. And it's going to be a step back in some ways. But I think it's going to be an accelerant in the long run since It's what he wants. And, and thinking about it like that, I think, you know, careers are long. I think you want them to be memorable. You want to have fun when you're, when you're doing it and feel like you're always growing and learning. And there's nothing up into the right to that. There's a, there's a lot of bumps and a lot of things that really drive your, your growth and your learning and the moments that are hardest driving, you know, the things that are the greatest.

It's really good. I have something that you can give your team member who's sort of in this lateral drawback thing. It's the analogy of the arrow. Have you heard that one?

No.

So in order for an arrow to fly really far, it has to be drawn back.

I like that one.

Right? So it's ready to launch. And then when it launches, It flies, right?

It's so true.

Yeah. So that's something you can— because that's the way you think analogy. It is.

I mean, whatever makes the message land with people and resonate and be memorable, I think is, is important. I love that one. I've never thought of that analogy.

Yeah. So, so and it's great to be able to bring it to somebody who's like, I don't know, it's a step back in my career. It's like, no, no, this is the arrow being drawn back. You are about to fly like This is— it's big. So that's great. Hey, if people wanted to reach you, what's the best way? Is it, is it through LinkedIn or—

Yeah, LinkedIn would be the best way. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I think it's a great tool for connecting and keeping connected with, with networks and friends. So yes, Christine McGuire, like Jerry Maguire, M-A-G-U-I-R-E, at LinkedIn.

Very good. I was gonna ask you to spell it, or I was gonna spell it.

A lot of people go MCG, so I always have to make that distinction, right?

It's not Mick, it's Mac. Yeah, Maguire. M-A-G-U-I-R-E. Christine, um, cool. Very good. So glad you're here. So glad you're here. Christine Maguire has been my guest. Thank you again.

Thank you for having me. This has been incredible.

It's fun. It's a lot of fun. Alrighty, this is One Sharp Sword: Cutting Through to What Matters Most. I'm your host, guide, and coach on this journey, Dr. P, Dr. Wayne Pernell. Thanks for being here. We'll see you again next time. Thanks for listening to One Sharp Sword: Cutting Through to What Matters Most with Outfluencer, Dr. Wayne Dr. Wayne Pernell. For more information, please go to one-sharp-sword.com.