The Guy Behind The Largest Real Estate Coaching Programs on Earth - John Cardis

Alrighty, y'all. Episode 18, Sales Bro Pod with John Cardis. John, thank you for coming on, man.

You got it, brother. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, this is gonna be a good episode. Some, I mean, you and I have been talking a bit more recently and you came into the community. This episode is for everybody else who may not have caught that and maybe those in the community who want To hear you talk a little bit more. But yeah, for context, for people who may or may not know you, what are you up to right now? What do you do right now?

Yeah, so what I'm up to right now is, so I'm founder of Revenue Launch, which is a consultancy and recruitment agency that has worked with over 30 brands in the high-ticket space, agencies, consultants, coaches. Essentially what I do is I go into a company and fix all of their systems, a good company, fix all their systems to get them to a point where they're able to hire. So I'm always hiring high-ticket sales reps, closers, and setters, and, uh, because that helps the company scale.

Cool. When you say a good company, what do you mean? What do you mean by that?

So for me, a good company is $200,000 to $300,000 in monthly revenue, uh, because what that tells me is there's some sort of proof of marketing process, right? They've, they've identified and dialed in some sort of marketing process that Fits their customer avatar. They have product-market fit, essentially. And then a lot of times in those cases, they might have 2, 3 sales reps and they are people that they might have known from their past or maybe family members or something like that, but they're not trained high-ticket sales reps. So those types of companies I can take to the moon.

Cool. Cool. So I know this and it's super interesting. Um, and I think it's good to kind of take it back for the audience cuz you didn't start out as the premier high-ticket sales consultant and recruiter by any means. There's definitely a, a series of events that led you to being where you are now. So how far back should we go, man? Where did, where did it all start for you? Like, um, was it about, was it about the college time? Is, is that a good place to?

Yeah.

To pick it up or? Yeah.

I mean, so like specifically high ticket was around college time, but we can go before that. It's up to you. Yeah.

Yeah. So let's go a little bit before that. Like you, just like you as a dude, like were you inclined to be in sales? Like did you think that sales was something that you could do?

Yeah, so I think I was in a position where I was inclined to wanna make a lot of money. Like, that became such a focal point and was the front and center focus for my life for like so many years. So much so that it actually deteriorated almost everything around me. Like, I didn't have a normal life growing up. Elementary school, high school, you know, like I did party during football season, but like other than that, like I was working on business. Like I was thinking business all the time. And I, again, I think that hurt me in some ways, Yeah. but I also think it was extremely helpful in some ways. But I knew that sales was probably the best vehicle for me to make the most amount of money because it was solely dependent on my personal effort, right? Like if I wanted to work extremely hard, which I had a big purpose and a big vision for my life, and I knew I had to figure it out some way, shape, or form, like I had to make money because I had a deep pain inside me that if you don't have enough money, like, Bad things happen. So, um, for that reason, I knew I can control my effort. I gave 1,000% of my effort towards it, and I made decent money. And slowly but surely, I just progressed into better opportunities.

Sorry if I forgot, what'd you go to school for again?

Uh, so I went to community college in New York, in Long Island, New York. Uh, and so that was like an associate's degree. And then, uh, then I went to FAU, Florida Atlantic, in Boca Raton for, uh, Business management.

Okay. Yep. There's a little, some synergy, business and sales, you know? Um, but you didn't go to school like thinking that sales was what you were gonna get out of it, was it? Was that the case?

No, no, not at all. I mean, so I did, I did some door-to-door stuff, Jimmy, just like you. I did some door-to-door, uh, alarm and oil sales back in New York. I did some business door-to-door stuff, uh, and cold calling, selling insurance for Aflac one summer. But the whole goal of like going to FAU was like, I want to, and moving down to Florida and like, just for everybody listening, like if you're in your hometown still, like it's a hack to leave. Like it just like, it changes your whole perspective. Like you can be whoever you wanna be, which is absolutely awesome. And so when I went to Boca, I was like, I just wanna network and meet tons of different people and like kind of like test and scratch the itch of things that I could be potentially interested in. Which is what Gary Vee talks about a ton. Like when you're young, you can, you're able to do that. And I was 19 at that point. And so I was just meeting people, scratching itches, doing, you know, connecting people, doing weird side projects, like whatever it is I was kind of sort of interested in, I was like, oh, let's just see how it goes and kind of go from there. And sales just became the focal point that highlighted amongst all the other ones.

Yeah. So you had, uh, you had some more, some of the more traditional sales jobs to start out, kind of get your feet wet. Um, I don't know, like what levels of success, or at least for that time in your life you had with those, but when did, when did you come around to the whole like online high ticket sales?

Yeah. Okay. So I will say like when I was cold calling, I was cold calling like, uh, for an alarm company. You know, doing like four hours after after school, like after college, and I would do my college work while I was cold calling. I was making like five hundred bucks a week, and I was like at that point, I was like this is sick. Like I'm like seventeen, you know. It was really really awesome. But I always had this vision of like, and I used to see the ads all the time of like, I mean they're still out there, but make money online, like work anywhere in the world, like be remote. And there was people that I followed that were like living the laptop lifestyle, and I was like. I was like, I can do this. Like, I'll figure this out some way, shape, or form. And so like, that was the dream in the back of my head, and it was like totally irrational at that time, um, but it was an irrational desire to like push towards that direction, which actually worked. Um, I thought I was only gonna be able to do that through business, like owning my own business. So, and the way I knew to do that based off of all the influencers that were like hitting— I was getting ads for was e-commerce dropshipping, Shopify, Amazon, whatever it might've been. Um, and so like, I was like, I should totally like try to get into that in some way, shape, or form. And so, um, like that was the catalyst more than anything else, which then progressed me into sales.

So you're just like everybody else who had the e-commerce stint, including myself. Uh, everybody, dude, Nobody in the online space today can say they didn't try dropshipping once. Like it's a rite of passage, right?

Yep.

And if I remember correctly, that's like parlayed really well, like your e-commerce experience, ventures, and interest parlayed really well into you landing a role kind of in a similar space. So yeah, you got, well, I'm trying to think back to the question that I asked, which was, I think, how did you get indoctrinated into high-ticket sales? So you got into e-commerce, you were, I don't know, did you have success? Did you get some Wi-Fi money?

Yeah. So funny story how I even got involved in e-commerce. And I did launch my own stores and they really didn't work very Very well, but that first semester down at FAU, like I put my entire twenty grand in savings that I worked for, like on the line to go, you know, spend a semester down south in Florida. And I was like, if it doesn't work out, it's okay. I didn't take any loans at the very least. Anyway, that first semester, I met my one of my first mentors, which his name was J.R. Is J.R. Rivera? He's a social media influencer. He was an FAU alumni. And, uh, I went up to him and I was like, dude, like, I want to make a ton of money. Like, I know you're doing the whole online thing. Like, how can I get— how can I make money online? And what he said was, is work for free. Find someone who's doing what you want to do and work for free to provide value to them. And I was like, dude, did you hear what I said? Like, I want to make a lot of money online, like travel the world and do all sorts of different stuff. He's— and he's like, trust me. And so I thought about it for a couple of days, and I was like, yeah, all right. Like I have time, right? I can scratch the itch. I can play the long-term game. I could like I can work for free and like play that game. And so that's exactly what I ended up doing. I found I did a ton of research on Instagram. I found someone who was doing dropshipping at a high, high level. Actually, somebody in fact that brought the hoverboards from China over to the U.S. And so I was very enamored by him. I mean, he also was from Long Island, New York. He had a single mom, you know, his parents were divorced, same kind of story. And so, and we just happened to be in the same town. And so I reached out to, I reached out to him and I asked him if he, if he'd be, if he'd be willing to let me work for free inside of his company. And I came in for an interview, if you can call it that. And I showed up in my, you know, my khaki pants, you know, my collared shirt, like dressed like an Aflac insurance agent almost. And I walk in and I look around and everybody's got t-shirts, shorts, and backwards hats. And I'm like, where am I? Like, I'm completely overdressed. And so anyway, we sit down. Long story short, he says, you know, we'll give you a shot. Like, can you come in on Monday? And I'm like, yeah, for sure. Like, I don't have any classes, you know, at this time, whatever it is. I'll be here at this time. Um, and so that is how I got around the people that were doing e-commerce and And doing e-commerce at a high level at that point, and also like they were doing high-ticket sales. That was my first introduction to high-ticket sales. Is it was an in-person office, and so there was six or seven sales reps in office that were selling a $5,800 product, and we're just cranking. They would just crank calls out, right? Inbound calls. And I you know we had like little cubicles, and so I would sit on like one end, and like they'd be on the other or whatever it was. But I would hear their conversations, and I would like. Hear them close deals and they'd get really excited and jump on a trampoline when they did. And I saw all of that energy and all of that stuff and I'm like, I can do that one day. I don't know if it's now because I'm in school, but like I can do that one day. And so that was kind of the exposure to high-ticket sales more or less. Again, and I, and I went in with the idea that, hey, I'm gonna, you know, have this, this mentor or somebody to look up to and learn from, um, that's in the e-commerce space that I can try doing dropshipping and I started a couple of stores, like I said, and none of them really took off because I didn't really know what I was doing. Like, I didn't know Facebook ads and marketing at that time, which is super crucial to success of that. But that was my exposure to high-ticket sales.

Yeah. So you went from, you were more on the marketing side with this company, kind of, were you working for free or was it like?

Yeah.

Yeah, I was. Okay. You were. Okay. So you actually did work for free. So you followed his instructions. And you saw these guys jumping on the trampolines after they're closing deals. You're like, dude, I want to jump on the trampoline. I want to make some money. So how you moved up within that company, correct? Or you— Yeah.

So I, towards the end of my stint there, they asked me if I wanted to become the affiliate manager, which basically is like, we, I connected with other businesses that are in the same kind of space and we tried to create marketing content and email blasts and like online webinars. for those leads of those companies or the people that didn't sign up for those products to try to sign up for our product. So basically I was a part of, I was part of like bringing more leads to the team without any additional cost.

Okay.

I got paid for that. I got paid $750 a month, I think, or something like that. Interesting.

So when was your, when was your first shot to like Start selling online.

Yeah, so I while I was with that company, I arranged for I asked them if I can sell if like if I found a lead like can I sell it and they agreed and so what I did was is like I went on this guy's follower followers his most recent followers I filtered for the most recent and I just went follow follow follow follow follow follow follow and I and I made my account look like it was e-commerce dropshipping based and so I sold some small pack like five hundred dollars like. Like, and I made some, some, you know, nicer, nicer commission for $500 because it was self-sourced. Um, so I was like kind of testing the waters there. I was like, the guys, the sales guys sent me the script and all sorts of different stuff. Um, but that company ended up going, uh, in a different direction and basically like cutting the education and student component. They, they fulfilled on all the students and all that sort of stuff, but they stopped selling it. And so all of the closers at that point, and this was I should say that this was, uh, this was July of 2019, June of 2019 or so. Yeah, June of 2019. And so, um, at this point I was actually living at my friend's house, uh, one of the sales guys. I was sleeping on a couch for 2 months. It was like, because the semester was over, so it was like all sorts of different stuff. Um, and so one, they were all available, right? They were all available to sell something and they were used to making $15,000 to $20,000 a month. And so one of them got a job and a role over at Astro Flipping, which is a real estate wholesaling brand, and became one of the like the first sales reps over there. So it was like number three or so. And then he brought you know they asked him like for your recommendations. And then July of two of two thousand nineteen, I got a call like would you be interested in selling high ticket? And I was like no, like honestly like not really. And he's like no dude, like this is awesome. Like it's a great product. Like it's a great culture, great community, all sorts of different stuff. And I was like, all right, I'll give it a shot. And so I, I was lucky enough at that time, like, and again, this was 4 and a half years ago, um, I was lucky enough at that time to step right into a closer role, which was, uh, incredible, a great opportunity. And it was a small company at that point, like they were probably doing like 5, 6, 7 units a week at $5,800. So it wasn't big volume, but To me, it was like, I'm still in college. Like, this is, this is amazing. Like, this is a great opportunity.

Yeah. How much harder is it now versus 4 and a half years ago for like, for somebody to just step into a closing role? You know, how much harder is it now?

Totally. Okay. So much harder. Like, like 10 times harder. Because if you think about like, again, that was 4 and a half years ago. Like when I did that. And so if we think about it, like there is so many more people, sales reps that desire to be in the high ticket space, that desire to be a closer. Right. And so I look at like, I look at it as economics, right? Like supply and demand, like the demand to be in the high ticket space. If you're a sales rep and the demand to be in the high ticket space as a sales rep, like is extremely high. It's exponentially increasing every day. Like, and think about compounded over 4 and a half years, like that exponential compounded over 4 and a half years. It's a lot more sales reps now than there were back then, right? And then on the flip side, the supply of high-ticket companies, the supply of educations and agencies and consultants and coaches, right, that are hiring, right, that's only slowly increasing. It's not exponentially increasing, right? And so for that reason, it is 10 times harder. Now, granted, I think that there are opportunities where you could potentially, but like, it's like a needle in a haystack, right, to get a closer role nowadays. If you wanna get a closer role within a small company, what they're thinking is, they're thinking, okay, we're gonna hire a sales rep, we're gonna make him a closer, and we want him to prove the sales process, right? We want him to like see if it works or see what works. Like, and that to me, that's a very fine line of like, that could, it could turn out to be a great opportunity or to see if something works, it could also go skunk, right? And go to zero, you know? And I don't wanna prove anything. Like, I don't wanna prove a model. I want the model to be proven already. So you can get into companies like that, but to get into an established company with an established sales process, you need a background in high ticket. And, or at least setting a high ticket, right? To have that opportunity.

Yeah, I definitely want to dive more into that, I guess a little bit later when we talk more about like, you know, I don't know, some of the stuff that, you know, that would be super helpful. But I was just curious, like since we're on the topic, I mean, you, you see it every single day and you mentioned how you kind of just like landed. They're like, hey, no, no, you should come do this. Like they kind of had to convince you to come do this. Which is funny. But you went on, I don't know if it was with that company, but you went on to have some pretty serious months as a closer. What was your journey like going from, you know, you had some sales experience, but like no high-ticket sales experience to like hitting these, you know, months down the road that you were able to hit?

Yeah, totally. And it's important for me to be very blunt. Because like, I think a lot of people experience this and they don't, I don't think enough people are talking about it. And I don't think enough people feel like it related to, like, I was scared shitless for lack of a better word, like to get on a phone with an inbound lead. Like I thought, okay, they know more about real estate than I do. Like they know more about the brand than I do. And so I was really nervous. Like I remember my first sales call. I remember exactly who it was. I remember exactly what they converted for. I closed my first sales call in the inbound closing space. And that was like a shock to me. I was like, I can't believe she closed. Like, I sucked. I was horrible. I was shaking the entire time. My voice was like, like that, you know, it was just really, really bad. And so like anything in life, like going working out at the gym, like repetition and just doing the thing over and over and over again, like that creates a level of confidence and consistency. Like consistency, consistency creates confidence. And so over time, I became the the second best closer on the team within a like a 13, 14 month span, only to somebody that was that had a background in high ticket and he was like 40 years old and he's like one of my best friends today. But he he taught me sales and I was still going to college three days a week. Like I was I was in college Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Uh, all day long. Like I stacked all my classes and it sucked. But, um, but Tuesday, Thursday, I was able to take full blast calls, which was, which was great. And then whenever somebody wanted to close, like while I was in class, I would just like leave class and go close the person and then like go back to class. Like I didn't really care about school very much, uh, which I don't recommend by the way. But yeah. Um, it led to, you know, me making like $7,000, $8,000 a month, which to me at that time, like my first goal was like, how can I make the first $100,000? And that is like the hardest thing. Like, and you know, people, people, I mean, like, uh, very famous people, like I can't remember who it is, but like Warren Buffett, Elon Musk type style, like that caliber. They talk about the first $100,000 being the hardest to make. Like it's the biggest transition. And so that became like my North Star more or less. And so like I was able to make that like in that During that time period, while I was in college, while I had a girlfriend, while I was like, you know, uh, I was a part of a marketing organization and then like, then this organization that helped, uh, special needs kids like swim in the pool and, um, like to get their motor skills going. And so like I had a full plate and like somehow still made 7, 8 grand a month. And then, um, right before COVID like COVID wasn't a thought yet. Uh, March of 2020, uh, the company approached me and basically said like, hey, you know, we're launching a new brand, it's called Sub 2. And I'm like, okay, sure. And they're like, we would like for you to manage that brand and lead that team. And I, and I had to think about it. Like, it took me a couple of days to think about it and pray on it and all sorts of different stuff. And Uh, I'm like, I don't even know. Like, I've seen what I've seen, like these companies, they grow very slowly. Like, I don't, I don't really know. I'm not really too sure. And I just felt like kind of this call, like, do it, right? Um, and so anyway, I committed to it. And also for context, I was weighing it because I was like, that semester was almost over and the summer was happening. And, uh, like I wanted to finish school, like before I really did anything else besides clothes. But I took on the responsibility in the idea that, hey, I have the summer to figure it out, and if I love it, well then I'll just continue. If, if for whatever reason it doesn't work out, I can always go back to school in the fall. And so that, that's how I live my life, is like, take a chance, but for how long? Like, how— give yourself a time period to take that chance. And so April of 2020, COVID came around, we launched on April 26th. COVID was a thing at that point, and it was the hottest offer I've ever seen still to this day off of launch. We did a million dollars in revenue that first month with a team of four sales reps, including myself. I was taking sales calls seven days a week, ten hour, ten to twelve hours a day. Like I was like, it's money time. Like this is what I've been praying for. It's what I've been dreaming of. Like this is like this is what breaks all the generational chains and all the bad things that have happened in my life. Like the ability to have that sort of money is like. Life-changing, and so I didn't go out and go splurge and like go buy a whole bunch of stuff. Like I was like, okay, I got to keep in grind mode. Like I got to stick to this. So I again, I trained up four sales reps from nothing. Like they didn't have any background or experience in high-ticket sales. They had some sales experience. I think one of them had some roofing experience. One of them, they did all sorts of different stuff. But I trained them up and. They didn't sell as much just because they were newer, but the leads were so hot that even they were selling like really great, really great numbers. So that first month was my biggest month in high-ticket sales to that point. It was $56,000 in commissions, which was like, again, life-changing and incredible and all sorts of stuff. Within 2 months of doing that, they basically asked me, Okay, cool. Like you don't need to be on the phone anymore. Like we need to build out this team more. And so then that's when I slid into like a full-time sales manager role. And then over the course of 2 years at Sub2, as a as the full-time manager, I built the team up to 17 sales reps and $20 million in annual revenue with great cash numbers and all sorts of different stuff. But that process was just amazing to learn. Like I was 1,000. I was 1,000 miles an hour. So like I recognized that, hey, you know, I'm making great money. Like I can sit back and kind of just chill. Like I'm managing now, like all sorts of different stuff. But I saw that as an opportunity for me to learn as much as possible. And the more call reviews I did, the more effort I put in, the more conversations I had, the more one-on-ones I had. Like I did all the extra stuff. Like Maybe I want to meet with marketing or fulfillment, optimize this process, or think of this new idea. I worked around the clock on purpose and it didn't make any difference necessarily to my bottom line. Maybe it did, but it didn't really make a difference. But I saw it as like, I'm in a company that's from zero and I have the opportunity to test things and try new things and just explore the idea on somebody else's dime. And certain things failed horribly and certain things worked incredibly. And the things that have worked incredibly, now I have a database of all those sorts of things, right? And like, that's what I teach, right? And so when a— even when a company nowadays is like, we want to try this, I'm like, I've tried it already. Like, it works this way, but it doesn't really work long term because of this, this, and this reason. Like, this works way better. And so I can speak more from experience because I've tried and tested things. And I would have never had that opportunity being in a real corporate environment, right? Because it was so startup and because I was kind of like, I was almost running, I was running the show, you know, I was running the whole, like that whole brand. Like I was able to test things that I would never have the opportunity to do so, which I think shaped like a lot of my experiences and, um, just helped in the long run big time.

Yeah. I'm curious, how did the, you mentioned when you first started closing, you were Super nervous, shaky voice, all that. How did the pressure of being deemed sales manager of, you know, million-dollar-plus operation at this young age compare to the pressure of like when you first started closing?

Yeah, well, I think it's funny because I was like ready for the challenge of like, and I was 20, 21. When you know sub two started and they said we want you to be the manager, and I was just I was ready for that challenge at that point in my life. Like I had an overconfidence in my sales abilities, which I don't I didn't sell. I only I sold high ticket for like fourteen months, right? Plus sub two, right? Plus the beginning of sub two. So I had calls under my belt and a couple million under my belt, whatever it was. But I wouldn't say, like, looking back at it now and all the people that have done way more than me, like, I wouldn't consider myself like a sales high-ticket, like, expert, right? I would say I'm more on like the manager and consultancy side, right? Like, understand the business as a whole and what needs to grow it. But I was ready because I was hiring all of— I was hiring people that were new to the space. Like, I think if I hired at that point, if I knew to hire people with experience, they'd be like, this guy knows nothing. You know what I mean? But because I hired all new people in the space and they became my friends, like at that point in my life, I was really craving because of COVID right? Like I was craving friendships. And so like we would do like after, you know, after calls, happy hours and stuff like that. Like they just became like family and friends. And it was an interesting dichotomy because I was managing them at the same time, but they were like best friends to me. But it all worked out because they knew the line and I knew the line. Of them giving me advice with certain things, but also stuff that I wouldn't take any crap of, you know, like they knew the line. And so somehow I knew to balance it really well at that point. I think it was God, honestly, that helped me balance it. But I was ready for that. The whole sales, like being a sales rep, like I was ready to take the next step, but I didn't know really what I was getting myself into. And so, like, that was really scary. But I also think at every transition in life, you know, whether it's, you know, working a job to all commission sales or all commission sales to, you know, all commission management or anything to being an entrepreneur, I think there are all different levels of that and none of them feel comfortable. They all feel like jumping off a cliff. And so that the thing that I feel and think about a lot is like, You know, how can I just get off the cliff? Like, the sooner I decide to jump off the cliff, the more I can learn. And that's kind of like my mentality going into everything now. It's like anything new that scares me, it's like I'm just gonna run towards it. You know, I don't know if you ever heard, um, this, this story or analogy, whatever it might be, but, uh, the difference between a buffalo, uh, a buffalo and I believe cattle Um, when a storm comes, cattle start running away from the storm, right? They run away from it. Buffalo run towards it. And because buffalo run towards it, they actually get through the storm faster. The storm passes over them versus the cattle actually in the storm for longer because they're running away from it and it approaches them more slowly. So like, for me, I'm like, how can I attack the storm versus like get shy or scared or nervous or fearful and like clam up? You know what I mean?

I never heard that, that, I guess, story, but that, I mean, it makes sense. That's like, that's, I might have to remember that one. That's pretty good. Cool. So you, you go on to build a team of 17 people. They're doing about $20 million a year and you must, I mean, Man, if I, if I had that case study under my belt, I'd be like, yeah, I'm, I'm the man, man. Like, who, who's next? Who, who can, who can I help next? Where, where's the, what's the next thing on the plate? So you do this and then, you know, I feel like we're getting closer to the timeline of when you started what you're doing now, which is doing that for multiple people. So how did you go from, you know, one team And that was everything to branching off to do this like almost as your own business for other people.

Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, it came down to like networking was a big aspect, right? Like the relationships that I grew over the course of 3 years at that point in the high tickets or 3 or 4 years at that point in the high ticket space, like people knew me as somebody that's gonna work my tail off. Like, so I built that reputation, right? And that's why reputation is so important. Like, the things you do now, the thing— the relationships that you have now, like, they come back around like it's crazy. Like, when I was working for free, you know, like, when I was working for free, you know, they called me Intern Corey, which was like— didn't make any sense because my name wasn't Corey. But even this last weekend, I was just telling you, we just— we just met in Austin, right? And we had lunch and we had barbecue. And, uh, the next morning I saw somebody that worked at that company, right? And like what, what he's doing and, or what he did and what they're doing now and like what I'm doing, like it's all connected. And so like, that's a, that was great because I didn't burn that bridge way back when, like things worked out, right?

Yeah.

Or, or things could, like could happen. I could learn, they could learn, whatever it might be. Right? At least I have something to lean on a little bit in the next venture I'm going for. So like never burn any bridges more or less, because it all comes back around. And I forgot your question, but—

No, no, I was saying like the transition from doing this at scale for one team and then moving to doing it with multiple.

100%. Thanks. Thanks for bringing that back up. So I initially said, okay, cool. Like I, I've managed a team that went from $0 to $20 million. I have all the processes. I understand like how everything works. I know the flow, et cetera. Like what I'm going to start doing is I'm going to be the sales manager for a team for a certain period of time in which I get paid a retainer plus a percentage of upside. Like whatever we grow, I want a percentage of. And so like that's the typical. I mean, it's similar to the typical like outsourced agency sales agency model, but I was really trying to focus on like how can I build the internal because I believe internal teams give the the company and the CEO like more control and more consistency. Outsourced sales teams, I don't believe in as much. That's just my humble opinion. But so like my thing was like how can I go in and like build their team and how can I consult their CEO and consult you know their sales manager and their do the training and all sorts of different stuff. And that worked. But what I realized is like my team, my time was so limited. And then I had like companies like, you know, I need you on this meeting. Like, and I'm like, I have another meeting with another company. Like it just became really hard to manage my time. And I did not get into my own business to like manage more stress. Plus like I wasn't making as much money as I was making before. And so it was like more stress, like bad expectation setting. I had to learn like boundaries and expectation setting and all that sort of stuff. That was very hard for me. But like there was that and then again, and then I wasn't making as much. So I was like, okay, this model like is not viable. It's not gonna work long term. So I was like, okay, cool. Like what can I start to shift into? And so then I found, I hired a mentor or a coach and we kind of repackaged my offer a little bit. And then I was like, cool, I'm gonna go into a company with an existing sales team. with an existing sales manager and consult the manager and CEO on growth. And so I'll help them with their sales ops. I'll help them with sales training. Like I'll jump in and do a training on a meeting. Sure. But I'm not there every day and I'm not required to be there every day. And so I basically built a model on like monthly retainers, like lower monthly retainers for me not to be involved as much. And then with that, like I can build out the systems that are required, uh, to help that, that brand scale to the next level. Like, you know, even more, even, uh, recently, um, I spoke to somebody that has 2 CRMs. Like, their sales reps are in 2 CRMs, and I'm like, that's not good. Like, that's horrible for efficiency purposes. Like, you can't document things the right way. You can't manage the team the right way. Like, how do your setters know what your closers— what the closer outcome is? Like, it's just a mess. So like there's things like that that companies think they're doing right and they're doing right in the moment, but it's a bandaid. Like you can't support a team of 17, 20, 50 sales reps. You can't support a bigger team on 2 CRMs. It's just not possible. Like you got to cut the feedback loop of efficiency, right? So I'm always looking like, what is the things that are inefficient? And like, I'm looking for feedback from those specific things. Consistently than to measure how efficient it actually is. And so, um, like, that's what I go into companies and do now. But, um, I— that, like, coming in as a sales manager in the beginning, like, taught me that this model is not scalable. And then consulting— and consulting happened, and then recruiting was just an ancillary benefit of it because I'm like— they're like, we need more sales reps. I'm like, okay, cool, I'll find you more sales reps. So it was more of like a like a shoot-aim approach, you know, like just like get in and do something and then like other benefits or other problems will arise. And like, if I can solve them, I will. If I can't, I'll try to find somebody that can. And that's, that, that served me decently well too, because I'm like, I, I try to find opportunities for other people, like constantly. Like if I can help somebody win, I most definitely will. Why? Because it does good for the world.

Yeah.

Right. Number 2 is that, yeah, like when people grow, like they want to help back, you know, it's just natural. It's a natural progression of life. Like there's tons of people that have helped me along my journey. And because of that, like I try to help them whenever I possibly can. Like I'm not indebted to them in a way that's unhealthy, but like I will definitely help them if they need, if they need something, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, it sounds like a common theme is like, you just started. Like high ticket sales, you just started. Management, you just started. Your own offer, you started. Was it perfect in the beginning? Any of the times? No. But you, you got a hell of a lot further because you just started.

Yeah.

Even when the road wasn't as clear as you'd like it to be, which is what I think. I mean, I know there's gonna be people listening to this who haven't even started. So if you're listening, go start, whether you're a sales rep or manager, you wanna start your own offer, go do that. I do wanna be cognizant of time. We got a little bit left, but I wanna get some like really good nuggets for the sales reps, being that you're seeing both sides of the sales reps and some of these, you know, pretty impressive companies. What is, I don't know, what's, what's some game that we can share for them to like have them walk away from this and they're like, damn, like John really, John really helped me. I guess, I guess as far as recruiting, as far as hiring and as far as people who get your attention. I mean, what are, what are some of the best ways to set that first impression, the like positive first impression to get their foot in the door? Um, and what are, what are some things that people do that like kind of rub you and others the wrong way? And it, it's like they're kind of writing themselves off by doing that.

Cool. Yeah, there, there are multiple parts of that question, so I'll dive into it. Yeah. And if you need to just be like, hey, what about this component?

But sorry.

Yeah, so I think, I think the, I think the first thing is, is what's really impressive is like being unique, right? Um, and being unique is understanding your strengths, weaknesses, right? Um, and understanding like what you're really good at, what you're also, what you're really bad at, right? Brutal honesty is always really great for me. Like, I'm from New York, like, I just love that attitude because I think that A lot of people, a lot of people in this space are not fully transparent, whether it's companies or whether it's sales reps. Like they hide information and like that stuff always comes to light. Right. So like, if I find, if somebody told me something like on an interview and then I find out like it's not right, like I don't want them. Like, because character, integrity, and reputation, like, and trust are all so valued. Right? Especially in look at supply and demand, right? A high demand, high demand job market, right? There's tons and tons of people trying to enter the space and get in, right? So like how can you be different than them, right? So I think that's super key. I think part of that and what really impresses me is when somebody is so aware of who they are, what they want, why they want it. Their pains, their triggers, and emotions. And so like, let's just say this, like I had to do tons and tons of deep, deep internal work. And like, I'll share this because I'm proud of it, is like I've been going to therapy for like 12 years, like on and off, like whenever I need to. And like I recommend that because like there are deep shit and traumas and things that happen in our life or things that we don't fully understand or things that don't make sense, or things that we just found ourselves in, that like, those are limitations on our life. I can't tell you how many limitations I've had on my life based off my childhood and past. And I think everybody does at a capacity, whether you come from a very successful family or not, right? Or the other end of the spectrum. I think no matter where you are on the spectrum, there are things that happened in your past that are controlling you today, and you need to unlock those certain things and dive deep into them. And solve them and do the hard work nobody wants to do, right? So there are times where I'm like, I would love nothing more than to sit on the couch and relax, or like go out to a really nice dinner and have a glass of wine and some great food. But I'm like, but I'm dealing with this thing and I sense it. And so I journal about it. And so like I spend the time doing the hard stuff. And like whenever I see that trigger or that limitation on my life, I'm like, why is it there? And I dive way deep back. To when that could have potentially happened, and so to to kind of sum that up is like when when somebody knows when a sales rep knows what they want, why they want it, their purpose in life, like and is honest about it and can talk about it in a deep way, right? Like the thing that they're excited about more than anything else, right? Like that is attractive not only to me as a recruiter, but it's attractive to a company. Because it's like, that's the reason why you won't quit when you get no, or that's the reason why when leads flow dies down a little bit, like you'll excel. Or like, that's the reason why you're a problem solver when nobody else wants to think of the problems or when everybody else is negative, you're positive, right? Because you have a deep burning desire to get that thing. And it's not necessarily like, oh, I need to make $20K, right? That's so common. Like, or $10K, like everybody wants to do that. Right. So like mentioning that on a job interview or an intro video, whatever it is, that's not unique. Right? Talk about the deep-rooted purpose. Like, I'll give you an example. I've hired— I hired this woman way back when, and she had previous sales experience but not in the high-ticket space. And this was a bigger company. Like, this company was doing— one of my better clients doing like $12 million a year. And I'm like, okay, cool, I got to get somebody good for this role. And I had people that had experience in setting, like in high-ticket setting. And then I had like people that didn't, but I picked her. I picked her because she was a single mom that had a burning desire and need to make money, right? And she crushed. And I'm like, I looked at that experience and I'm like, she wanted it more than anybody else. And so like, how can you personally prove that you want it more than anybody else and tie that to your purpose and explain that on the intro video? Don't make the intro video like 5 minutes, you know, make it sub like a minute and a half, like, but cover the thing that is most important to you and let people understand your background. Because this game is not about like what you know. A lot of people know the same thing, right? Like, again, the demand to be in the high-ticket space is very high. It's exponentially growing every day, right? So like a lot of people know the same thing, but how you can stand out is your will to win and want it more and your track record of doing that. Right. And it's not just track record and high-ticket sales. Like, it's your track record, like, in your mind and the beliefs and the promises that you've kept to yourself between loyalty and sports and, and the gym or whatever it might be. Like, the habits that you've built. I can see if somebody's stacking W's or stacking L's just based off their demeanor, right? Because they're not true to themselves, and I can tell that they're not true to themselves.

Yeah, that's interesting. Like, There's all these programs and different people who sales reps discover high-ticket sales through, but a lot of the information is pretty similar all the way around. And so it's not about who knows more, it's about personality-wise and purpose-wise, who wants it more. And We were talking about this the other day. Like, there's always gonna be those people that just say, oh, I'm hungry and I'll, you know, I wanna work and like whatever. But they don't really give like specifics. It's just like, I'm hungry, I'm young, whatever. You're not really making that strong of a case for yourself unless you're elaborating a little bit, you know, like everybody's hungry, you know?

Yeah.

So that Those are like some of the things that stand out for you positively. What are some of the things that stand out negatively?

Yeah, totally. Like, again, if I catch somebody lying, I think that's a big one. I think if, I think if they try to position themselves as a closer when really they're a setter, like the, again, the positioning of it. Like, and they're trying to do it because they're trying to advance. I get it. But again, I just prefer like brutal honesty and just the way I operate. Um, the other thing I don't like is somebody that's like, um, cocky confident. Like, like they believe that they know how good they are. Like they know how good they've done in the past, I should say. And they're overconfident in their abilities so much so that they're lax. And so much so that they try to interview the company too much or try to interview me too much about the offer, right? And the reason why I'm a little bit cautious of that is because I've put really talented, really experienced sales reps on offers. And one, they either move too quickly, they go onto the offer and then they leave. Or two, they don't have the juice in them that they used to have. Like when somebody makes $30,000 a month or $20,000 a month or whatever it is, Like it becomes how consistently can you do $20,000 or $30,000 a month, right? And when they've done it for a decent period of time, they just look at sales as like an object more, more in their skill as being superior versus their will. Like those individuals, I can tell they're not as motivated as somebody that like is just getting started or that wants to advance from a setter to a closer role or was in a closer role in a company that was a smaller company with low earnings. Right? Like, I know those people are ready for the advancement if I could see the hunger. But if I see too much, like, I'm too good, like, I don't believe in that just as a motto for myself. Like, I just don't resonate with those types of people. So like, I can't put you in a role, you know, like, that's, that's like really bad for me.

It's a very fine line when you're, you know, trying to show people that you're confident in your ability. You don't want to go too far over and you look like an asshole. But you do want to be able to present yourself in a manner where they're gonna be like, okay, this guy probably knows what he's talking about.

Yeah.

I know we just got a couple minutes. I want to ask you, there's a lot of people nowadays, I'm sure you're getting them, and I think we talked about it this past weekend that they're coming from these programs where, you know, they're sold the idea of making $30K a month in 90 days after buying a program. And they think like, because they consumed a program that they're automatically like entitled to close and not set appointments ever because they paid thousands of dollars. Like, what's your take on all of that?

Yeah, I think sales training is a right to entry in this space, right? If you want, again, because the demand is so high, right? So if you— I won't hire anybody that hasn't been through some sort of sales training. Like in the high ticket space for sure. Like they need to have some level of understanding. So again, I think that's just a rite of passage, right? Spending that money. But to spend that money and believe that you are again, like, and have a feeling of like, I need to do this and I must do this and like somebody must give it to me type of thing. Like that attitude just never works in life, right? So you're just thinking about it the wrong way because you took a risk because you've spent money. Like you're thinking about it in terms of like, I need to get an ROI right now. But the best ROIs I've ever seen, like even in my business, have been like ones that have come like a year or 2 years after. And even like 5 years, like relationships have evolved, like, and like now it's an ROI. And so like, that's what I encourage more or less. And I think the other thing too is that like, whoever you're working with, whatever sales program you're working with, They don't determine the job market, right? Like, I think the companies, right, they determine the job market. Not even me as a recruiter, and there are tons of recruiters, right? Like, not even me. The companies determine how the job market is. And so understand, try to network and understand the way they think, the way they operate, what they're looking for, what they want. Look for trends, right? Because if you can do that, you can position yourself in a way with the right attitude Versus like an attitude of like, I did, I spent money, so I must get a return right now. You know, again, I just think that's like, for lack of better words, brutal honesty, like small-minded thinking.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a long game. If you can, I mean, if you get into high-ticket sales and you're like, oh, I'm just gonna do it for like 3, 6 months, like you should probably just go do something else because it's a long game. Anyways, man, I wish we had more time. I really do. 'Cause you know, your insight, I don't think, especially a lot of the people on this end of Twitter, they probably know you from Facebook. And if you're not following John on Twitter, where, where do they find you?

John Cardis Sales, because John Cardis was taken. So John Cardis Sales.

Yeah, I found that out the other day when I tagged you in a post and it was like some other guy. Anyways. Follow John if you want to work with him. I'm going to link it below. I'm going to link his Twitter or Facebook or whatever you want me to link. I'll link it below. You can find him there. And yeah, man, it was good having you. I appreciate you coming on.

Sweet, bro. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. And dude, I'm stoked for the things that are in store that we're working on.

That's all I'll say. If you're listening to this, you might have to come down to Austin sometime later this year. That's all we're going to say.

Yeah, start, start putting a few dollars aside. That's, that's it.

Alrighty, y'all. Appreciate y'all.

You got it, brother. Absolutely.

Later.