#008: Negotiating Secrets of a Successful Freelance Writer

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey everyone, thanks for joining me for episode eight of the High Income Business Writing Podcast. I am your host, Ed Gandia and this is the podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to take their writing businesses to the six figure level or the part time equivalent. You can find detailed show notes to this episode by going to b2b launcher.com episode eight the number eight. So if you're driving, jogging, or just somewhere where you can't take notes, don't worry, I got your back. These are detailed notes you can reference later at your convenience. Today we're talking about one of the most nerve wracking and fear inducing activities for freelance writers. Negotiating with prospects and clients. For many writers, the idea of having to negotiate with a client makes them break out in a cold sweat. But I gotta tell you, negotiating is a critical skill. It can help you land more work at better fees and it can protect you from savvy clients who know how to negotiate well. Here's the good news. You don't need to be an expert negotiator to reap the benefits. We're not talking about a hostage crisis or a multibillion dol dollar merger deal. All you need are some basic negotiating skills that alone will make a huge difference in your business. And in today's episode, freelance writer Carol Tice will show you simple and practical tips for negotiating more effectively. As a freelance writer, let me tell you first a bit about Carol. Carol is a freelance writer for publications and businesses. Since 2005, she has been a full time freelancer writing for a lot of different clients. Before that she was a staff writer for the Pudget Sound Business Journal, writing about retail, e commerce, restaurant, nonprofits, higher education and more. She spent five years at National Home Center News, which is now Home Channel News, learning how to sell merchandise at 100% markup while covering home improvement retailing for the trade publication. Carol also teaches other freelance writers how to grow their income. I think you're really going to enjoy her down to earth ideas. So let's get right to it. Carol, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here.

Thanks for having me, Ed.

You bet, you bet. All right, so let's start with give us a little bit of background on what you do for a living today and then what types of clients you work with.

Well, that's actually an interesting question. Since 2005, I've been a freelance writer after being a staff writer for a long time. And I made more every year straight through the downturn because I wanted to. And I guess I didn't know that I wouldn't. No one told me it wouldn't be possible. So I just kept going. And I have a mix of publications and business clients. I've written for Costco, American Express, Dun & Bradstreet, folks like that, and a bunch of smaller and lesser known businesses. And then at this point, I have another client base, which is freelance writers who I help make more money.

Perfect. Perfect. I mean, you've been out there, you've worked for a lot of different clients, not just one type of client. So one question that comes up then is when dealing with clients, and I hear this all the time, it's like, you know, I just. I'm not a good negotiator. I really don't want to learn negotiating. Do I really have to do that? Can't they just, like, go with what I give them? Isn't that good enough and.

Or can't I just take what they tell me what the price they throw out to me? Yeah.

I mean, what would you say to that? What would you say to somebody who thinks that way? Is it important to know how to negotiate and how to do it?

Well, only if you want to make more money for doing the exact same thing. I personally want to make as much money as I can from every gig that I do. And I had a really formative experience in negotiating back in sort of prehistory. I was a legal secretary and I worked in entertainment. I worked at MGM and actually at the old William Morris Agency, which will date me since it's called something else now. But so I basically sat around all day listening to attorneys negotiate contracts for actors to audition for pilots of TV shows and things like that. And I think that just normalized the experience for me that negotiating is normal. You know, the studio would say, here's the deal, you know, give the. We want the actor's soul for the next seven years for a pittance. And then the actor's agent would say, well, we don't think so. We think their pay should escalate each year of the contract from here to here. And they should be able to do other movies on the break. And. And they'd go back and forth. Often we'd be there late into the night ordering pizza and stuff. And. And I just think that gave me this incredible grounding that negotiation is normal, negotiation is part of business, and it's expected that you're going to see what you can get in the contract and nobody is insulted. You know when the actors agent says, well we'd like this, that and the other, they don't say, oh my God, well then we're not going to test him and forget it. You know, the fact is if someone wants to work with you, they're never going to. You're never going to lose the gig for asking if there's more money in the contract. So why not ask I guess is my approach.

That's a good point. I guess. You know, I would put it a different way. If they're going to walk away, if you're going to scare them just by asking, then they were probably not a good prospect to begin with.

Yeah, that, that probably wasn't going to be a good relationship. If they don't have that level, if they can't just say no, that's all there is. I'm sorry, that's all we got. Like how did. That's just normal stuff.

Yeah, yeah. So, so. All right, so I want to go into kind of a deep dive into how you can negotiate more effectively as a freelance writer in the way I would like to direct this discussion is by kind of stages in chronological order when you engage with a prospect. So kind of like early stage conversations then kind of like when you get into the pricing, the quoting and then the third stage would be okay, well they already have my quote and now they're calling me back because they think it's too high or what have you. So there's like the third stage, late stage. But let's start with kind of early stage here. You know when, when somebody, they either call you or you contacting them and right away they test you with how much do you charge for X?

Yeah. And of course the Internet is full of a million job ads that say, you know, two words about the project and send me your best rates based on no information. And I actually back when I used to troll those ads, I would respond that really varies. And as soon as I have a detailed picture of what your project is, I'll be able to provide you with a precise quote of what I do it for. And that's pretty much the same thing I say live, you know, what do you charge for case studies? Well, tell me about your case study. Is it something I'll be doing off a bunch of Skype interviews and research you've already done? And it's just sort of a boil down I do. Will I be interviewing 10 different people Is it five pages long? Is it two pages long? Do you need it at the end of the week? Do you need it in six weeks? All of these things are going to affect what I want to charge for it. So, you know, I always just kind of go into information gathering mode and just say, you know, I need to get to know your project before I bid. And if anybody disappears at that point, I know that they weren't going to pay anything, so I don't care. Yeah, basically, I'm not concerned. It's like good riddance to bad rubbish. Yeah, yeah.

You know, there's nothing wrong. I agree with you. There's nothing wrong in asking. I mean, you have to ask. Well, tell me more. I think, and I see this with newer freelance writers, they're afraid to ask because they're afraid to look like an amateur or they're not really sure what to ask. But the fact is you need to know, you know, you need more information. You can't just give an answer blindly.

Well, you can, but you will end up radically under bidding. You know, I worked with one writer who told me she had bid $300 or something to write somebody's website, assuming it would be, you know, three, four pages. It was 34 pages of content that she signed on for, for $300, because she didn't say, how many pages are we talking about here and how long are those pages? Yeah, you're just, you're always going to end up under bidding if you do not ask. They're not rude questions, they're not stupid questions, they're not unprofessional questions. They're questions you need to ask to do the gig successfully. You're going to need to know this stuff anyway, so why not ask at the point where it can do you the most good? The point before you bid, you know, why bid? And then say, okay, so, well, now tell me all the details of your project. I mean, you're going to have to find this stuff out anyway, right?

Yes. And I found, actually it makes you look more professional when you ask these questions and they're good questions up front, you instill some confidence in that prospect, not the other way around.

Absolutely. You know, asking those questions infers that you've been asked these questions before and. Or you've asked these questions before, you've done these sort of projects before. So, you know, you need to know a whole bunch of facts to get started.

Yeah. All right, so let's go with. And of course, at that point, the conversation could take many different directions. But I want to address one direction, head on, which is the. Oh wow. Well that's a lot more than I expected. That's way beyond what we're expecting to pay. Can you do any better?

Well, if it's way beyond what they were expecting to pay, I have to honestly say often I will be like, well, best of luck with it and move on. If they say that's a, a bit higher than we were imagining, then I would usually enter into a discussion. Well, you know, you said it's a big rush. Does it really need to be one? Maybe if I could have another couple weeks on it, I could come down a little. Or do we really need to interview 10 people for this? Maybe we could interview five and that would bring your costs down and often they'll go, you know, come to think of it, probably these five are the essential ones and we could get it done. You know, a lot of times, you know, prospects start aiming for the moon. They want to know how much they can get for how much work. And you know, then you help them start being realistic about how much they can get for the money they've got. And if you come to it with an attitude of, you know, I want to work with you. Sounds like an interesting project. I love this topic. I want to work on it. I know about it, you know, how could we make it work? Sometimes, you know, and sometimes I will come down a little, you know, if it's going to, if maybe they're adjusting their parameters a little and, and you know, sometimes you have shot off a too high number. You know, recently I had this opportunity to do a case study and I threw out a fifteen hundred dollar number and they went, whoa. And I said, huh, well let's look at what exactly will we be doing? And we tunneled into it a little more and it turned out that actually he had already pre done all the interviews on Skype and I was just going to be able to watch his Skype calls, ask a few little quick email questions and kind of write it up. And it wasn't going to be super long. I ended up actually doing it for 750 and it was a client I really wanted. It was an M and A firm. There's a niche I really like because they know a lot of businesses, they're a great referrer because they have their hands in a lot of companies. And just I covered M and A for a long time and it's a fun niche to me. And yeah, and we were all happy. So I actually did come down quite A bit on price, but it was because as we refined the definition, I could see that it was. I could do it in a day.

Yeah, I like that approach. You're basically saying, you know, their reaction was, oh, my gosh, you know, that's. That's higher than we thought. Your approach is basically, well, let's talk about it. You know, let me ask you a few questions, which. So. So then let me ask you this, Carol. It sounds like it would be a good idea to have that dialogue on the phone. You know, I know a lot of writers were introverted. Many of us are, and we, you know, we just hesitate to get on the phone with someone. But this seems to be a very difficult thing to try to do over email.

Yeah, I'm not usually doing this on email. I hate that, where you get into the, like, 50 emails back and forth. That's annoying. And the other thing is you really want to form a personal connection with this prospect. I mean, at this point in my career, I do business with clients who I'm hoping are going to become my personal friends. They're like people I want to hang out with. I like them, love where they're coming from. You know, I think they're interesting people. And you can't find that out even on email. And in that case study guy, in fact, we got on Skype, he was in Vancouver, and I'm in the Seattle area, and we just did a Skype call, and that was great. You know, it was like being in the room together, more or less. And I was able to really get to know him. I liked his personality. And that's the other reason to do it in person is you want to work for people you like to work for. You know, I'm just back. I'm just back from sobcon, where we were listening to Steve Farber talk about his mantra for success in business, which is do what you love in the service of people who love what you do. And that really reflected to me why I'm successful and happy at what I do is that. That really is kind of my philosophy. If someone offers me a project that I know I wouldn't love doing, I don't do it. And if I can tell the person is someone who isn't crazy about what I do and isn't loving where I'm coming from, if it goes either way, it's not going to be a happy experience. You're not going to get that great sample you want, and you're not going to build a relationship where they're going to refer you, you're out of the sweet spot of business. So getting on a phone call or a Skype call or going to an in person meeting gives you that chance to get more of a sense of whether this is the scenario you want and it's going to really be a positive one for you and for your business and your life.

And it sounds like you recommend doing this as early in that inquiry process as possible. It's okay if it comes in via email, but I always tell people, look, try to get that conversation to the phone or Skype asap.

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I just have to add, at sobcon, I actually ran into a former client of mine who turned out to be a sponsor the conference. And I got to meet him in person. He's from the Midwest, and I got to meet him in person. And it was so fun because we really dug each other and, you know, it wasn't sort of awkward and weird and well, like I had formed a personal relationship with him and it was totally cool to get to hang out with him and I actually referred him a writer for a project he needs while I was there. And we were able to really reconnect in a really productive way. And you know, to me, that's how you want all your, all your business relationships to be. You know, I don't know, I'm on earth to make friends and have fun and, you know, so I bring that to the business that I do. And the more you bring that, I think the more money you make and the happier you are with your day and everything.

Agreed. Agreed. And I would say, look, if this is starting to make you feel really nervous, this idea of, you know, having these conversations over the phone, Skype in person, you know, I say practice. Right?

I was just gonna say that. Get a, get a writer friend and have them pose as the client and have them call you have them pose as like a kind of cranky, hard to please kind of client and practice dealing with that because I've also dealt with some difficult people who had interesting projects for me and I decided it was sort of worth it. I kind of cut my teeth on some difficult editors early in my people who were yellers and had personality problem. And so I can handle that, you know, if I think I want to. But that made me think of one other thing I wanted to say about that. Erg, I don't know.

Well, you definitely, you have the scar tissue, you know, but a lot of people aren't are going into it with that. So, yeah, practice it Will get a lot easier after you do two or three of these, I found. And you know, one approach I like to use, by the way, I like in person meetings with the right people, but I like to go email. If it starts an email, then phone or Skype. And then if it makes sense in person. Some people like to skip, you know, the middle part and go straight to in person. I say, you know what, make sure they're, they're qualified. Make sure you have a fit here. And the other thing I would add, tell me if you agree with this. Well, I know you will, but you know, not every inquiry needs to be a client. So don't fall in love with the idea that, oh my gosh, but it's an inquiry, I gotta turn it into a project.

Yeah, oh, definitely. Yeah. I did a post once called are youe letting sleazebag clients get you pregnant? And yeah, that it's really a big problem where people think a nibble. Therefore I must turn this into a client. Yeah, no, I get, I, at this point, I probably get 20 leads a month just because my profile is so high online. I get all kind of asks to do all kinds of crazy stuff that have nothing to do with my expertise at all. You know, could you write my resume for me? Can you write a white paper about this technological product? I actually, I don't do anything in technology at all. And that's what I wanted to go back to. When people, when you wonder if something isn't right for you. At this point, I have a really clear sense of stuff that's not right for me. When people are like, When I see the word cloud, mobile or app in a subject line, I delete it immediately. I don't care what it is, I don't want to know. It is not for me. It is not for me. I barely just got a smartphone literally like two weeks ago. My joke is my next blog will be called the Last Adopter because I am the least technologically savvy person. And you know, the good news is having my freelance writers den community I can now come back with. But I can find you a writer. I'm happy to help you and refer you somebody. I'm sure I can find you somebody great, but that person is not me. And yeah, but that's a great reason to build your network because that's a real friendly thing to do that can really come back to you in positive ways is when you get those nipples that aren't for you if you can refer them. I really love doing that.

That's a great point because you don't have that anxiety anymore. At least, you know, look, I can at least point them somewhere. Okay, so. All right. And this is kind of a continuation of what we've been talking about, but I'm curious how you feel about quoting a ballpark figure early in the process to kind of test to see how price sensitive the prospect is.

You know, I guess I've done it, like with that case study guy where I was like, I don't know, you know, five pages sounds like 1500 bucks to me, you know? Yeah, I will sometimes do that kind of thing in rough, especially if I have a sense that they may be just totally joking me. Like, I had a lead recently who was like, you're amazing and I want you to write articles for my website. Blah, blah. We go back and forth a couple of ways. Yeah, he wanted to pay 20 to 40 bucks an article. I was like, you know, have fun on Elance and hiring someone from the Philippines, guy. Yeah, you want to, you want to get a sense. And sometimes they come off pretty legit too. And then they, you know, just, they've been reading Craigslist ads and, you know, they have some crazy ideas about what they should be paying for really sophisticated content. And yeah, you want to blow them out the door pretty quick. Do you not waste your time?

How do you handle it? Do you go ahead and ask about the project, get as much information as possible, and then say, look, you know, you're looking at between X and Y, or do you just straight up ask them for their budget?

I guess it's varied. I don't know. I think sometimes I'm doing one and sometimes the other. It just depends on how much they've already supplied me with in the conversation. But, yeah, I mean, I won't even refer gigs at these ridiculous rates. I'm like, honey, none of the writers I even know, and I know 700 writers are going to take that, so you might want to rethink your rates a little sometimes when their rates are crazy low. I used to have a standard sign off that was like, I'm sorry that your budget isn't, you know, where it would need to be to work with someone like me right now. If things ever change in the future, I'd love to talk to you again about it. So just sort of leave that door open. Because you know what? People's situations change and their philosophies about content development change too. I've written for one big website where when I started, they were doing Hundred dollar articles, the kind of thing there you write something off the top of your head, no sources, write off your knowledge and a little Internet research. And then they went to fully reported articles at 800 bucks and now they're at free content. So everybody is evolving and trying out different models of content and stuff. So you don't want to be nasty because also that person could go get another job with another place that pays good. I just tell them honestly that we can't work together now, but let me know if things change for you. My rates won't be becoming $40 an article, but if your rates change in the future, you know, maybe we'll work together. You never know.

Yeah, that's, that's a great point. I've actually had people call me. I'm a big believer in no matter what, treat people courteously and professionally because I've had people move from one organization to another. And I'm glad I didn't say get lost, because they remembered me. And a couple years later they said, listen, I'm here. You probably don't remember me, but I was at this firm, I'm here. We actually have budgets now and I'd love to talk with you. And you know what, had I been nasty, they probably wouldn't have contacted me.

Totally true story. That has been lived over and over. Editors move around and marketing managers move around and they pop up in new places. And that's the other reason not to be abusive is a lot of times they're not the person setting that budget. It's not, it wasn't their decision that they're going to pay crap. You know, that's, it's some higher up and they're not in control of it. And they probably felt bad enough about it. Often, you know, they know that that isn't a good living wage and they're not happy about it. So, you know, by being just sort of like, you know, sorry, sorry, we can't work together now, you know, maybe in the future, you know, just leave that door open. Yeah, it'll, it can pay off. You'll be surprised.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, so let's move now into kind of the third stage, which is, you know, you've, you've maybe submitted a quote, right? You've had a conversation. They're qualified, they're a good fit, they're okay with maybe the ballpark you gave them. And now they're coming back to you when you follow up on the quote and said, look, we got it, we got your quote. We really want to work with you, but this is higher than we're prepared to pay. What can you do for us? I'm asking this again because I asked you earlier, but I'm wondering now that you're at this stage, how do you. Do you deal with that differently?

I don't know that I do. You know, I still have the same kind of basic questions. Do you maybe want. Could you maybe envision that white paper being a little shorter? Could it have fewer interviews? Could it take longer to get done? Could I not have to come into the office for as many in person meetings? You know, how can I get my name on it as a byline? You know, sometimes white papers and case studies are constructed in a sort of advertorial way where they like having a byline of a journalist on it. So sometimes I can get that and then that's sort of worth something to me. Maybe the payment terms can get jiggled. Maybe they want to pay me 75% up front and 25 on the back end. I might discount a little for that. If I need money right now I just have a cash flow bump I'd like to deal with. Like right now I have this ton of medical bills from my 20 year old. So, you know, maybe if someone was willing to pay me today for a bunch of stuff, I might discount the back end of it. Yeah, I always like payment terms. I think payment terms are one of the most overlooked areas for negotiation. And most writers and freelancers don't really understand the power of cash flow problems to mess up their business. And that's always the song, you know, it's always, oh, feast and famine. Now I'm broke, then I have a big project and I'm always looking for everything I can do to smooth out those cash flow lumps. So, you know, in the negotiation is a great time to do that, is to just program it in. Could I get 50%? Like today it's always, oh, feaster and famine. Now I'm broke, then I have a big project and I'm always looking for everything I can do to smooth out those cash flow lumps. So in the negotiation is a great time to do that, is to just program it in. Could I get 50% today on PayPal and then I could maybe get another 30% in two weeks when I turn in the first draft of this and 20% at the end, you know, then I might, maybe I could come down a bit.

Yeah, I like that. I've actually, and I've been bold enough to actually ask people, well, I can. I can go there, you know? Well, first of all, I always ask them, well, what do you know? What are you willing. What's your highest level? How far are you willing to go? Because let's say I quoted 3,000, and they're telling me it's too high. Well, okay. Well, what did you have in mind? What's your budget? Well, look, the best we could do is $2,500. Okay, well, at least I know we're not too far apart.

By the way, if they said a thousand, then you're like, yeah, this.

Well, it wouldn't be a thousand. Because at this stage of the conversation, I know that we're probably not that far apart, but let's say that the guy was okay with my 3000 ballpark earlier, but now, of course, he's got other people that he's talked to internally. And now somebody's beating him up, right. Internally, his boss or what have you. So now I know we're $500 apart. That's not bad. So I like your idea of payment terms and negotiating that. And one time I even asked, look, I could do it for $2,500 if you're willing to pay for it up front, the whole thing. And I've only had, I think, one client ever say yes to that. What it did is it started that conversation, but one time, I had someone say, okay, we can do that.

A lot of time. A lot of times I'll do meet in the middle for that kind of scenario.

Yeah.

They say 2500. I say 3000. I say, can we meet in the middle of 2750.

Okay.

And I. And I find very often you'll get a yes on that. You know, it feels like I gave something. You gave something. You know, we're all compromising here. It feels comfortable to people.

Have you ever tried this has worked a couple times for me before saying, well, listen, I maybe tried the payment route and that didn't go. How about pushing the delivery date?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Because that helps me a lot. I have a lot of projects I'm always juggling, and if I can fit something in amongst several other things, as opposed to having to drop everything and do nothing. But this thing right now. Yeah, that's meaningful to me. That allows you to make more money than if I can continue working on other projects.

Yeah.

So. And yeah, and a lot of times people get these deadlines in their head, and, you know, they're just sort of arbitrary. You know, they feel like, oh, my God, this really needs to be Done right away. And then they're like, you know, that trade show isn't really for three months, so we could probably take another couple weeks to get this done. You know, when they really, when they realize it's going to cost them to get it done fast. Which I'm a very big fan of. Charging a lot for Rush projects. I run into way too many writers who just want to charge a regular rate for Rush. And you, and you just, just stop it. If that's. You just don't do that.

What do you tack on, what do you tack on for Rush projects typically?

Oh, back when I was a script typist, I used to double my rate. I think it should be a lot more. I'm thinking like 50% more. Like I want a lot, you know, because the thing is that I don't like crises and emergencies and I don't happen to dig that that much, you know, but you're basically talking about a client who's dysfunctional and has a problem. They didn't plan well and now their lives are in chaos and they'd like to make their problem into your problem. And I don't like having problems. I like a trouble free life. So if they want me to make their problem into my problem, it has to really, you know, I'm going to be working nights, having to work on Sunday, you know, I get up early, stay up late. That impedes my lifestyle and cuts into my family time. And that, that has got to really cost them. It's really got to be worth my while.

Do you tell them, hey, listen, this is gonna, this is a rush project and it's going to require a rush fee?

I do. I actually had someone come to me once with a big project of $200 blog posts they wanted done. And that's all I said. I said, but it's rush work. And they said, okay, 300. I think a lot of clients do realize that. Yeah, they're going to have to pay through the nose if they need something now they want magical, you know, writing done on, you know, in, in no time. You know, back when I was a secretary in entertainment, in any editing room, you could see a little sign on the wall and it had a triangle that said good, fast, cheap. And in the middle it says, pick any two.

Yeah.

And that was something that made a formative impression on me that you should never be giving all three of those. You're doing great work. Really fast for cheap. No, they can have it good and fast for lots of money. They could have it fast. And cheap and not very good. They could have it cheap and good, but not very fast. Those are the options. I've never given them. Good, fast, cheap.

Well, you know what? I. I think there's. I don't think. I know that. There's some psychology at play when you give in to every request. Whether it's rush, whether it's a price issue, it doesn't matter. I've learned that if, you know, even if you're okay with it, let's say you're willing to do that, for whatever reason, you should still ask for something in return. And I forget the term and the psychology behind that. What exactly is called. But when you give in so easily, there's. There. The prospect first feels like, wow, this sense of accomplishment. But that only lasts a few seconds. And then they wonder, gosh, they give in really easily. I wonder how much more I could have gotten out of them.

Yeah, I think that word you're looking for is pushover. Once they. If they think you're a doormat that they can just get anything out of. Yeah, that's going to affect your whole relationship as you work on the project. You know, next thing you know, they're going to be wanting to IM you 247 about their project. And, you know, they're just going to keep pushing those boundaries, you know, and this is something I find a lot of freelance writers I work with really struggle with. And I think it's really deep stuff that goes back to whether you come from a dysfunctional family or you don't. I came from a fairly functional family with pretty healthy boundaries. And a lot of people, I think, who don't have a comfort zone with dysfunctional clients where they let them also not have healthy boundaries, and they just keep pushing the boundary. Now I want it tomorrow. Now I want you to do this extra project for no additional pay. And they're like, I'm not liking this, but I don't know how to stop it. And it's because they don't have healthy boundaries, and they didn't set them up at the beginning. And then that's the other reason you negotiate it. And that is to create those healthy boundaries. Because in business, there are a lot of users, there are a lot of pushy people, and they are going to just get whatever they can get out of you. They're going to keep on pushing. And like you said, you know, if they see you're kind of a pushover in the negotiation, the project's probably going to roll the same way. They're Going to keep throwing more things into it, seeing how much they can get, you know, because they see you don't have healthy boundaries.

Yeah, there's two things at play. Definitely the pushover. I was actually referring to something else, which is the fact that you always want to feel like you won and you won fair and square. And if you asked for 2500 but you were at 3 and you said yes right away, then it felt too easy. There's two items at play. One is you want to set the right boundaries from the beginning. The other is you want to make them feel like they worked for it. So by asking for something in return, whether it's meeting halfway, changing terms or whatever, it feels a lot more fair to both parties.

And you know what? It feels professional. It feels like I'm a professional and you're a professional and we're going to do business together now. And so we've had this negotiation where we hammered out how that relationship will look. And yeah, if you just take, you know, whatever they say, do this for 100 bucks and you can say, okay, that's not a professional relationship that you've just set up. That's going to be a boundary pushing relationship where you're going to be commenting on my den forums going, I feel exploited. I want to quit. I want to fire this client. What do I do now? This is messed up. And yeah, and it's because you didn't make them work for it at all. You didn't, you didn't show them you, you have standards.

Yeah, well, and that, I think a lot of writers feel that that's the way you do customer service, you know, is, oh, I'm going to be so flexible. But no, you're actually doing everybody at the service.

Yeah, flexible is nice, but there's too flexible. Yeah, like pushover flexible.

Do you have any other ideas on any other terms that could be negotiable? Any other things to consider?

What have we talked about? Well, yeah, we talked about upfront payments.

And deadlines, pushing the deadline. We talked about maybe stripping down the project a little bit or maybe stripping down the work that would be involved.

Yeah, I'll tell you another one. If it's a big company and they're like, we want this to go through the following three different teams. I'm heavily looking to get that down to a team, a point of contact. I really don't. I'm not a fan of gang edits where, you know, you get the one team and then the other team and then you're, you don't know what to do and you don't, you know. So if I could get fewer people to report to, that turns me on. The other one we haven't talked about is payment terms, especially on that last payment. I find this is where a lot of freelancers really go wrong, that there's no clarity on when that final payment is due. The terms I like best are within 14 days of turning in the final draft or on finalization, whichever is sent sooner. The problem that happens is you have some payment term of like, you know, I'll get paid a final payment vaguely when this project is finalized and there's no definition of how long they have to do that, and then they just never finalize it. You know, you get that, you send in that final draft and poof, they vanish. You can't get them to respond to your emails, your phone calls. They're just in the wind. And it's because they're dodging that payment or they're just so dysfunctional they're not getting to finalizing the project. But if they're dysfunctional, why should I suffer? Is my life philosophy. So that's why I like net 14 days. If I don't hear from you, it's due in two weeks. I send in my invoice the minute I send the final payment, and it says, you got two weeks to pay this, and that'll motivate them to finalize it. But you don't want to get in this scenario where it's like, oh, net 60 days after, whenever we decide it's final, they might table the project for a year. That's a sand trap that you don't want to get into. So that's one I'm always looking to negotiate on. That might be a fine point to them, but might be a place where you can feel like you got something and they can feel like you're a negotiator.

Well, I'll tell you the one I and I like that I prefer. My terms are basically, I will invoice one week after submission of initial draft, because I found sometimes there's a huge delay between when I submit my draft and they give me revision. So I can do my final draft or second draft.

Yep.

So at that point, it's like, look, I'm going to send. I'm going to give you a week after I send my. My initial draft, and then I'm going to invoice you, and then payment is due 15 days after that. So how long it takes you to get your act together that's up to you, you know.

Right. Yeah.

So now I'm really placing it all on them.

Yeah, you want to get out of the scenario where your payment could be hung up if they're dysfunctional.

Yeah.

And because they so often are, you know, projects get put to the back of the burner because something else, some crisis happens, the company gets acquired. You know, things change while you're doing the project and yeah. Then suddenly you're. I just wish I had a dime for every writer I know who's sitting around wondering what to do about a final payment that hasn't appeared and there wasn't a clear definition of when it had to show up. That's just a big black hole that a lot of people fall into. So. Yeah, that's another area, you know. Yeah. If they're one of those. Oh, our accounting department only cuts checks once every 60 days. Actually, I had a government contract client that was like this and I was like, well, they're going to learn to cut a check in 30 days for me. They can do it. I'm just betting. Yeah, you know, they can do it outside of their payroll cycle.

That's called higher authority, by the way. It's a technique a lot of people use, say, oh, it's not me, it's my accounting department or our CEO or whatever. And I had. Don't fall for that, by the way. You're right, it's. I had one client, one time, say, listen, this is right in the middle of the financial crisis in 2008, said, Our CEO has issued a directive. We've gone from 30 day terms to 90 day terms. I said, well, listen, I'm sorry, I can't work with you on 90 day terms. I, I mean, I was really ready to let go and part ways and we hung up the phone. They called me the next day and said, we've talked to the CEO. You are getting 30 day terms.

Right.

I mean, I'm not saying this happens with, you know, a first time client, but, you know, this is somebody I'd been working with at the time for three years. So I have become, you know, this is why I believe in long term clients, because this is one of the many benefits of that.

But, you know, assume when they tell you their rules that you could be an exception to those rules. It's possible. Yeah. Don't just swallow their line. And, you know, if I can get a government agency to cut me a check faster than their tradition, you can get any kind of client to do it. I've gotten Clients, they told me, oh my God, it's a rush. You got to start right now. I'm like, oh, well, here's my PayPal email. Send me money now and we'll start. You know, now there's no excuse anymore for not paying right away. And I have a deal with PayPal where I don't pay their fees for. I only pay 50 cents a transaction. So, yeah, I'm like, send it on pay. I'll send you an invoice. You can pay it right this minute. If you're serious about ramping this right this second, let's go. But you know what? You raised a super important point in that last little story, which was you were ready to part ways. And that's an important, important point, is you really have to have some dignity, you have to have some integrity and realize that sometimes you really. The best thing you're going to do here, no matter how broke you think you feel is going to be, to pass on this project. And I wish I had a dime for every writer who told me they passed on an iffy signing project and the next day they got a great project. There's like a law of the universe that when you let substandard projects into your life, they take up room that could have been occupied by better paying projects. So you always have to think, you know, is this something bad that's going to potentially suck up time I would have spent marketing and finding really a great client, or is this a good client that I want to take? And you have to be willing to walk. The reason most freelancers aren't good negotiators is ultimately they aren't willing to walk away from the project.

That's a very powerful point. And you know what? It is hard when you're in the middle of that. You got bills to pay. But you know what? You have to trust. I think the trust is really the key word. You have to trust that, you know what, I'm making the right decision. You let go, you move on, and the magic just kind of happens. It may not happen the very next day, but I find that you're right. It happens in many cases fairly quickly.

Yeah. And worst case scenario, that's more time you can put into your marketing to find better prospects.

Great point.

Yes, it may be it doesn't pay off immediately, but amazingly often it does that. Like within a week they're like, wow, I'm glad I didn't take that other guy because now look what happened. You know, I literally, I have a writer in the den. Who I think she got a. She got an opportunity, she passed on something and then she immediately got an opportunity to work on a like six month Department of Transportation project in her city where it's going to be just a huge, huge project. You know, just the good stuff can't come into your life if you keep filling it with the low ball, dysfunctional boundary pushing people who don't want to pay you what you want to get paid, you know, they're sucking up the oxygen. They are great advice and they refer other dysfunctional, not so great paying clients. You know, it goes back to one of my Newtonian laws of freelancing, which is that work of one kind tends to lead to work of that same kind at the same pay level, in the same topic and the same type of writing. And you know, there's a tendency of projects to perpetuate in a similar fashion. So you always have to think to yourself, well, what is this project going to give birth to? Is this the kind of client that will refer me great clients? Do they know other awesome people or do they know other lowball want to im you 24 7, pay you less, work you harder, make your. Make my problem your problem. Are they those kind of people? And then they'll lead to more of those kind of people. So yeah, I mean, to me, I think of each client not as just sort of that client, but it's like, what's their downline? How will they influence my career going forward? How will knowing this person and having this relationship, you know, affect the big picture? It. Will that be in a good way? Do you. Does it feel like, oh, they know a lot of people like my M and a guy, I was like, oh, you know, he's got his hands in all kinds of well funded startups. They pay well, you know, so this is somebody I want to work with. So I came down on my price and we worked something out, you know, because I saw him as a, as a positive building block for my career.

You were strategic about it. Yeah. You knew. You didn't just look at him as just, you know, one client. It was all the specifics about this client.

Yeah. No client is one client. They're them and they are them and everyone they know in the business.

So, Carol, this has been fantastic. And you know, before we part ways, you're doing some really cool stuff and you've mentioned the den a couple of times. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your den and what you've been up to lately?

Sure. Well, yeah, on the helping other writers make more money side, which I just love doing. I give out lots of free stuff on my blog, Make a Living Writing and if you subscribe you get lots more free stuff that I never put on the blog and I send out all kind of fun goodies and you get a 20 week e course marketing 101 for freelance writers. So there's lots of free fun stuff. And then if you want to work more intensively with me and a community of other writers who are really deadly serious about their freelancing, I have a membership community Freelance Writers Den and it is only sporadically open to new members. We have about 600 members right now and as we talk I am actually about to do an opening in the next few days. I don't know when you're airing though it may be already over by the time people hear this.

But can they get on a waiting list?

Yeah, but you can get on the waiting list and then you are first to know when. We are open to new people and we do a ton of stuff in there. I do weekly live events with all kinds of experts and we are constantly providing more information and running four week boot camps and providing whatever members tell us they need to learn about to earn more. That's the whole deal guys.

Carol's got some amazing resources out there. I get her emails every day. It's one of the few that I actually read. I don't read every single one of them, but she's got great content so definitely check it out. Make a livingwriting.com correct? Yeah, perfect. Well Carol, thanks so much for coming on.

Thanks. I love this topic. Always happy to talk. Negotiating.

You know, I love talking to Carol. Every time I talk with her I walk away with one or two golden nuggets. She is someone who's been out there. She talks from experience and I just love her style and her approach and the confidence that she brings into every conversation and every client interaction. So I hope that was helpful for you and that you walked away with some practical ideas. You can grab the detailed show notes for this episode@b2b launcher.com Episode 8 the number 8 and again, these are detailed show notes that make great reference material, especially if you listen to the show in your car or somewhere where you just can't take notes. A few quick announcements before we wrap up. If you have tried launching your writing business in the past and not had much success, or if you are an aspiring business to business or commercial writer and you're looking for a way to launch your business successfully with less risk. Starting on June 18, I'm personally going to walk a small group of ambitious writers through this specific process through launching their own freelance businesses and how to get paying clients by this August. This is by far the most transformative program I've ever put together. I still have a few spots left and enrollment is by application only, but the last day to apply for the program is this Sunday, June 16, so you need to hurry. If you're interested, you can learn more about it by going to b2b launcher.com forward/info info if you enjoyed this episode I would be grateful if you shared it with friends. And the easiest way to do that is to go to b2b launcher.com Love this. Will pre populate a tweet for you which makes sharing the podcast a lot easier. Also, it would mean a lot to me if you gave the show a quick rating or review on itunes. The easiest way to do that is to go to b2b launcher.com iTunes. You'll see a blue view an itunes button on that page which will launch itunes and allow you to give it a quick star rating or a sentence or two if you'd like. So this brings us to the end of the episode. I am your host Ed Gandia. Thanks so much for listening and I hope you have an awesome day. The High Income Business Writing Podcast is a production of B2B business launcher. Learn more at B2B launcher dot com.