Ep 060 - Drywall 101: Crack, Stains, Tape and Texture Explained

Welcome to Be a Smarter Homeowner Podcast, where you'll discover strategies to save money, save time, and be better organized in managing your largest financial asset and biggest expense, your home. Your hosts, John Bodrozic and Beth Dodson, who are co-founders of HomeZada, have been supporting homeowners for over 20 years. They are here to share with you their tips and suggestions, as well as interviews with industry experts, with the goal of helping you become a smarter homeowner. Now, here's your hosts, John and Beth.

Have you ever noticed a crack in your wall and wondered, is this normal, or is it something wrong with my house? Today we're talking about one of the most overlooked parts of homeownership. Drywall. While it may seem cosmetic, cracks, holes, and stains can sometimes reveal bigger issues that every homeowner should understand. Boy, do I have some stories for you on this one. Today we're joined by Bill Weber, owner of The Patch Boys of DuPage County, a company that specializes in drywall, ceiling, plaster repair, and texture matching. Bill helps homeowners restore their walls and ceilings every day, and he's just seen about every type of drywall patch problem imaginable, from simple wear and tear to signs of much larger home maintenance issues. Bill, thank you and welcome to Be a Smarter Homeowner Podcast.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. So let's just get right into it. And my first question is, what are the most common drywall issues homeowners experience today?

So boy, 3 most common are ceiling damage, which is usually cracks or someone fell through the, the I've had that happen. Yeah, cracks in walls. And then the next big thing is just damage from kids playing, people stumbling, falling against walls, etc.

Good point. Yeah, I've had that happen too. Like, people just don't realize they're carrying something and they drop it and it comes into the wall and it like basically just rips out a bunch of your drywall.

Exactly, exactly. And then right up there is also water damage, whether it's from The condensate from your AC leaking, whether it's leaks from rain, plumbing issues, that's right up there as well.

So we just described some of the bigger problems, and some of our— some of these problems are obvious. But when a homeowner sees a crack in a wall or a ceiling or what have you, maybe even discoloration, how do they know if it's a normal just settling of the house, or is it really something serious?

Yeah, you know, when the cracks are kind of light, almost looking like hair that's stuck somewhere, then that's kind of a normal settling crack, especially when it's off of a corner of a wall.

Sure.

You know, where I would look, maybe a wall goes down into a hallway and that ceiling wraps around, and then you'll see light cracking, and it's pretty obvious that it's stress. Another place will be inside Or outside corners. Where it's an alarm is when you see almost looks like coffee stains.

Oh.

Most often, you know, on the ceiling, and it's either going to be because of roof leaking, skylights having an issue, or plumbing leaks. If they begin to see cracks looking like they're separating or the drywall is separating, you know, one piece of drywall is looking like it's lower than another on a ceiling, Now that's an alarm bell going off that says, wait a minute, the ceiling is beginning to detach from the framing.

Oh, that's serious.

That's a very serious one, yes.

Because if the ceiling starts to detach, if the drywall starts detaching, then the ceiling starts detaching, it could come down on someone's head, correct?

Absolutely, and unfortunately there are several cases of that across the country. Usually it will fall When they're not standing under it. Either way, it makes a huge mess.

Yes. Okay, so we've got these, we've got these types of situations, and then one of the things you brought up too is kind of coffee stains. Is that a sign of, of a potential, like, little small leak or something bigger, or could it just be Some other conditions. So tell us a little bit about if they see a coffee stain, what are they looking at and what are the steps they need to take?

Yeah, it kind of depends, you know, if it's something that's almost imperceptible and then over a long period of time it begins to get a little bit bigger, a little bit bigger, that kind of a thing is almost always a problem with a sealing ring, a wax ring, or a synthetic sealing ring on a toilet. Because every time the toilet flushes, it's maybe a teaspoon or so of water that seeps out from in between that seal, and that is the least— other than it's inconvenient and it's kind of gross, you know, that's the least worrisome. If you begin to see light staining like that, that's almost like a coffee stain, Mm-hmm. And it's usually pretty sudden because after a heavy rainfall, there's been some sort of a roof leak. Or again, it can be— a lot of folks have their AC units are up in their attic, and if that drip pan that's catching the condensate gets clogged up, it can actually create quite a mess. And often that water doesn't rear its ugly head Until it's too late. So if you're seeing a light crack with any kind of staining, or you notice a crack on a given day, and then, you know, within a week or so that crack's getting longer or staining more, because, you know, water will always follow that path of least resistance.

Yeah.

So it's inevitably going to go down the taped seam lines. You know, the drywall tape gets put in between each piece of drywall. So inevitably, that's what will happen if it's a bad enough leak. It'll follow those kind of, you know, least resistant paths and go to light fixtures and that kind of thing.

Yeah, and so what Bill just shared with us, everybody, it's important to also check other areas of your house to avoid this leakage in other— in on your drywall. So that's one step you can take is go through your attic after a rainfall, go through your toilets to make sure there's no leaks or anything else around them, 'cause sometimes you can see it, but your drywall, what Bill is saying, is also an indicator that something else could be wrong.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Oh my goodness. So when people do find some sort of crack or potentially a leak, because we don't want to scare people either. What are some of the biggest mistakes they make when they find out?

Usually it's just, oh, it doesn't look that bad to me, I think I'll just wait and see. Or they try to fix it themselves before the leak is fixed. That is one of the biggest questions that new people are trained on. It's like, you know, Should I get this fixed right away? And we're like, look, we'd love to earn money from you, but we really don't want you to pay twice for the same repair.

Correct.

So do not repair it until you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that whatever's causing that leak has been repaired, and then make sure it's fixed correctly.

Yes. No, I can completely attest to that. So people on this podcast have heard me talk about my own hairline pinhole leaks in piping That I had, and I was fortunate it was in one section of my house. But yeah, the water— there was never any signs of a leak on the drywall, which was weird. It just literally came through the smoke detectors and the lights out of nowhere.

Yes.

Which— it was one crazy 4 AM call that we all had to get up and run around like chickens with our heads cut off, but we knew what to do. So we totally can get all of that. So we did not fix it ourselves. We did not. We actually had the professionals come in, tear it all down, figure out where the leak was first, and then determine how to make the repairs. So one of the things I'm a big proponent of, because I— so I've got friends in the drywall business as well, and I think drywall is like amazing. I don't know why I do. I just— Do. And the smoother it is, the happier I am. The space I'm in today, it had— the ceilings are so beautiful now, but it— they used to have that popcorn ceiling. Oh, drive me crazy.

Yep.

And so I had that repaired. But a lot of people think they can do these projects themselves, and there's different textures to drywall. And it's all different across the country. Some people do love this imperfect smooth, some people love that popcorn ceiling, some people love, like myself, like this really, really fine smooth texture. What is it that makes drywall so unique for different households, and what do people need to consider when they are looking at different structures of drywall?

You know, it really was dictated by the building industry. When gypsum board, you know, drywall or sheetrock— I mean, sheetrock is really just a brand name, kind of like, you know, everyone who uses a tissue calls it a Kleenex.

Sure, yeah.

Even though that's a brand. But the thing that was amazing about drywall or gypsum board, etc., was that it was so much less labor-intensive to work with to build a home and then to maintain. And so that was the beauty of that. And then as far as textures go, my experience has been it was really kind of more of a cultural or geographical cultural thing. So I've always told people that essentially the East The East Coast has a lot of plaster.

Yes.

And if they have any texture in it, it was really the old plaster artisans, kind of what they were in the mood to create on a given day. And that plaster continues into the Midwest, but there's a lot of smooth finish on the East Coast and in the Upper Midwest. So I've always said basically anything below the old Mason-Dixon Dixon Line and west of the Mississippi, 90 to 95% of that has some kind of texture.

Yes.

And everything else is flat and smooth. And most— the most often seen textures are going to be what they refer to as orange peel, which literally looks like the skin of an orange or a grapefruit.

Yeah.

And then what they call knockdown, which has a varying amount of heaviness to the texture. which is basically sprayed-on globules of mud, of drywall compound, and literally knocked down, flattened out with a knife.

Yeah.

So everything in between, uh, as far as texture, right?

Yeah. So I wanted everyone to understand the difference of textures because there's a lot of people moving from different parts of the country to new parts of the country, and they're unfamiliar with drywall texture. But one of the other things I also want you to talk about, because this was interesting and it has an impact whether someone tries to do this themselves, which I'm not always a proponent of, um, but drywall tape. And the reason I bring this subject up is when I had, uh, my water damage that we talked about, my insurance company— I think my claims adjuster, she's— I think she She was new, and, and that's okay, but I just had to do some education. She forgot about the drywall tape in her adjustment. Doesn't make it terrible. The fortunate part is I understood what drywall tape was, and I was also working with my contractor. I go, what are we missing? And I was like looking at— I go, we're missing drywall tape. And drywall tape is not Scotch tape.

Right.

So, can you explain a little bit about drywall tape and why it is so important to the finish and the structure of the walls?

Sure, yeah, you know, the first thing with drywall is it's got to be put up and secured correctly because movement creates cracks. And then, you know, when it's new drywall where every place where pieces come together and you have those seams, they're There are little gaps, obviously, and it's got to be filled. And if you just fill it with the compound, it's going to crack. So the tape, which isn't, as you say, has no adhesives, it's not Scotch tape or duct tape or something like that, on new applications, it's literally a special kind of paper that is going to absorb the moisture from the compound because the compound gets put on—

Yeah.

seam before the tape is applied, then the tape gets put on and it binds itself and technically becomes one with the surface paper of the drywall so that you can then create a smooth transition and float it out so that you don't see the variations between the pieces of drywall.

I love that explanation because this is so important and everyone who is trying to their own little fix-it at home. Drywall tape is critical to the smoothness and to the adhesiveness of keeping the walls—

It is.

It's almost like boards, on a flooring board.

Exactly, yeah, where flooring boards have a tongue and groove, you know, one piece snaps into another, so to speak, before they even nail it or whatever on hardwood. So it's the binder. So even with the textured finish, if you don't have a smooth finish before you texture, that's going to show up. So one of the most common things that happens with repairs with a homeowner who thinks they can do this on their own, or a handyman who may be good at a thousand other things but really isn't good at drywall and plaster repair, Right. they will tape those, the seams on a new piece of drywall or a crack, and can't figure out why they end up with this lumpy line around their repair or down that seam line, and it's because it's done incorrectly or they use an incorrect kind of tape.

Yeah, good point, because there's different types of products you can use. But you bring up a good point about texture. So we— one of the reasons I wanted to talk about texture is because that's part of your skill set, is texture When, when people try to do it themselves, that's one of the areas where they can screw up easily because they're not familiar with the different— excuse me— different types of texture. Tell us a little bit about why texture matching is important and also why it is better to have a skilled professional do it, because I think it's complicated.

It is, it truly is a learned skill. It takes time to develop the skill. You know, technically it's not possible to do a 100% match because you're dealing with, you know, what type of compound did they use in the first place?

Sure.

With textures that are sprayed on, what was the pressure setting on their compressor? What type of hopper and spray nozzles did they use? All those things matter. And so now you're coming in at some point later and you're scraping back some of that to do a repair, getting a seamless repair. Now you're trying to put your texture and blend it in. But with a professional, most pros are able to do an 85 to 90%, and many times over a 90%, where you'd swear it's a match, especially to the untrained eye, where a homeowner, you get so focused on the one little spot, you don't realize you're building up this thickness. And then when it all dries, you look up there and you go, why does it look like, you know, fungus growing on my ceiling?

Correct.

You know, so.

You know, as part of that, so I have a question because it just came to mind. Because I've lived in different parts of the country, and does weather play a role in repairing drywall?

It does in the sense of, you know, if you live in any arid climate, so the folks that are out in the deserts, you know, California, Arizona, that kind of thing, even with, especially with AC running, right, it dries out the atmosphere, and so it changes the process of how quickly things dry.

Okay.

And if the drywall compounds dry too quickly, that can be problematic. Here in the Midwest and the East Coast, the South where it's so high, you know, the humidity is so high, it can actually take longer to dry, and all of that can affect what the repair is, how you're repairing it, when you can finish it, when you can sand it, when it can be primed and painted. So sure, all those things dictate the techniques and the length of time you have to be in someone's home to get the repairs done.

No, that's great. I mean, because what most people— just as a heads up for people who are on this call— drywall needs time to, for lack of a better word, cure.

Mm-hmm.

It's like salting meat. It just needs time to cure before you can even just jump in and paint on top of it. So it's important to understand that. Now, a little bit about renovations, 'cause I wanna talk to people about renovations. What is the one thing that people, or several things, that people need to be aware of before they start trying to take down drywall themselves?

First of all, it's messy. Extremely dusty. Oh, it's awful.

Extremely.

Especially ceilings, right? You don't know what's going on. Most people— I shouldn't say most— many people aren't aware of the type of insulation they have above that. If it's blown in and now all of a sudden you're cutting out a section or removing sections, if you haven't removed that insulation, it's it's coming down along with whatever accumulation of dirt and dust and debris was there when it was constructed. You know, as ventilation's happening and it's bringing in air from the outside, pollens and dust and yuck. And if you've had animals in your attic, whatever they left is coming down with it.

Yeah.

And so being wise about, you know, proper eye Lung protection, you know, enclosing that area to protect it. Many times someone's like, I could swear I knew that I could do the repair right, but oh my goodness, I didn't imagine the mess it was going to make. Then they spend the next, you know, week to sometimes months finding dust and debris.

Yeah.

And then of course it gets in their HVAC system because they forget to block off their cold air returns, so it's, it's recirculating, which can be an environmental hazard as well.

Correct. And so to Bill's point, give a little story. So for anybody who's here, my ceiling used to be one of those popcorn ceilings, and it was gross because it was from 1973. So it had never been changed since 1973. God only knows what was up there. And I hired professionals to change that that out in the whole little condo that I have. And no joke, I came in after the construction, thank goodness, and there was dust in everything. I mean, everything. I had to take out— even though things were covered, I had to take out dishes and rewash everything because I was like, this is crazy town. But I cleaned everything for weeks only because there was dust everywhere. Opened the windows to make sure I could get some fresh air in here, changed out my air filters in my HVAC unit, I think, 3 times.

Yep.

In like a month, because I was like, this is crazy. But it's really important to what Bill said, that when— if you're going to tackle this, you really need to have the safety precautions, because this can get your lungs, your eyes, your this, your that. Or just don't do it and hire somebody else like I did. There you go. It's so much easier. They are skilled at the job. And I will say this, from my own experience, even though you never know what you're gonna find, 'cause even these ceilings, they were so old, they needed patches in a lot of areas that it took a little while. But what I find is most drywall professionals, because they've been doing this so long, like with any professional, For whatever reason, they get it done faster because they get the rhythm down and they figure it out.

Yeah, exactly. Experienced people, before they ever actually begin the repair or the installation, whatever it is, they're looking at it and assessing what's going to be the best way to approach this particular job site, to be efficient, to be safe, to be clean. With a true professional, any home improvement specialist, if they truly are professional, they're going to have all sorts of protections down for your flooring, for your walls. They're going to absolutely recommend get your breakables out of the way.

Yeah.

You know, your pictures, whatever. Then if you're unable or unwilling, they're going to make sure they cover things and/or move them themselves. Because it isn't just about that repair or securing that ceiling that's sagging or whatever. It's about taking care of that home in the process, before, during, and after, so the homeowner isn't left with a mess.

Yeah. So one of the other things too is, 'cause I like to leave helpful tips for people as well, How— like, we talked about briefly how homeowners can walk around their house and double-check things in their house to prevent leaks and what have you, and that does affect drywall. But is there anything else that homeowners can do to prevent any kind of drywall damage?

Preventing damage, I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, if you know you're keeping your plumbing and your roofing and your windows in good shape other than than severe storms, you know, or older homes where, you know, you can't predict when a plumbing drain is going to fail or a supply line is going to fail. Just cursory inspections periodically. You know, one of my favorite things to do is take a very bright LED flashlight and shine it sideways on the wall or the ceiling. It's a miracle. Because it reveals everything.

That's brilliant.

And so periodically, if a homeowner goes around with that light, it will reveal if they have screws or nails backing out. You know, even screws, it refers to as nail pops. And it also will reveal any cracking that's beginning. And so, you know, preventative medicine is catch it early, and it usually solves a myriad of problems because you catch it early.

Yeah, and speaking of which, When you— if you use these little tips and tricks and you are looking at your drywall, and let's say you're getting ready to sell your home, drywall has a big impact on whether people value your home than something else. So what are some of the common drywall issues that you see prior to someone selling their home Or things that could cause problems in selling a home?

Yeah, it's not repairing the obvious cracks. You know, a hairline crack somewhere that's almost imperceptible, not an issue. But when you have those nail pops, which again is like downward dimples, sometimes they're in walls. They're most common in a ceiling, right where the ceiling meets the corner of the wall. larger cracks, or they attempted to do the repairs from, you know, a couple of, couple of areas that were pushed in, or, you know, outside corners were bashed into by the children.

Yeah.

And they try to repair it themselves, and it looks like a scar on the wall. And then they took and just painted the repair area, which now makes it look even more noticeable. And at that point, they're better off not touching it. We'll often have people call us in and say, I'm getting ready to put the house on the market, do these repairs, but just paint the repair area. You're better off leaving it alone because it's going to stick out like a sore thumb, especially if it's glossy paint.

Oh, really?

You know, even if it's the exact same color, newly painted, you know, whether it's an eggshell or a satin or a semi-gloss finish, it's always shinier than the surrounding area, so it just glares at you. So it's— if you're going to do it, do it professionally and paint an entire wall, paint an entire ceiling.

Yes.

So it blends. And, you know, the homeowner, you know, the new homeowner or prospective homeowner is going to come in and say, well, you know, I'm glad you did it really well, I hate the color. They're going to change it, but they don't want to see those scars.

Correct. Oh my gosh, that's so good. Yes, there's so many people that just paint the section. I'm like, paint fades.

Yes.

It fades, it discolors when you open your windows and everything else. That's so funny. So when it comes to repairs, because I like these fun questions, um, what's the weirdest thing you've ever seen and what's the most expensive repair you've ever seen?

Wow, the weirdest thing I've ever seen. The weirdest thing, I was training someone in South Louisiana and we walked into a house and the texture on the ceiling looked like upside-down ice cream cones. It was literally 4 inches deep. It was like walking into a cave, like stalactites hanging down. That was the weirdest one, and the ceiling was sagging and starting to detach.

Oh my gosh.

And I just stood there and said, you know what, all we could do for you is demolish this out of here and start fresh. The most expensive is always when ceilings are collapsing.

Oh yeah.

And there's too much insulation. And so it's very labor intensive.

Yes.

Because now, you know, Trying to save blown-in insulation and put it back in, if it's newer, it kind of works, but essentially you're starting all over. And often if a ceiling's sagging, it also involves having to do some repairing of the ceiling framing.

Yep.

And bracing. And so it's that, it's the drywall, it's the insulation, it's the priming, it's the painting, and all the labor that goes into protecting and And having to dispose of all that.

Yeah, that's— I— yeah, ceilings are crazy. And I think for everyone else on who's listening to this or watching this, one of the other reasons why ceiling's expensive is Bill is, is glossing over the labor a little bit. But sometimes, depending on your ceiling height and what have you, there's not 10-foot guys there. They need scaffolding, they need ladders, they need To set all that up, and that takes time to set it up safely and to move it from one section to another, which is labor to actually do not only the safety part of it but also a good job for your ceiling. Because people do notice ceilings, AKA mine.

Who didn't?

And it's really important. So understand that labor may seem more for ceilings, but there's a lot of complexity that goes into it to help people safely actually repair that ceiling.

Absolutely. Any, you know, any repair that is above the reach of standing on the floor is 20 to 40% more labor-intensive.

Yeah, great.

And the other thing, if you're scaffolding, you know, whether it's carpeting, you know, tile or hardwood floors, you have to protect that.

Yes.

So all that It comes into play. A lot of times people will say, well, you know, how much labor is in this? Well, you know, it's also about having to go get the right scaffolding and go pick up the right materials and protect that floor, stage it all out. So it's not just the 4 hours of repair, it's the 10 hours that it takes to stage it and then clean up.

Prep is critical for people who are listening and viewing this. It's critical because it will protect the rest of your home. Because otherwise, if you don't do the prep work, to Bill's point, you have more problems and you're calling a different contractor to get it repaired.

Absolutely.

Bill, this has been so much fun. Where can people find more about your company?

Uh, www.thepatchboys.com.

Oh, that's fantastic.

Yeah, we have patch boys all over the country. We are one of the— I don't know if we're the largest as far as a company. I believe we are because there's so many and we have such broad coverage across the nation, and everybody is trained thoroughly and supported completely. So the consistency of customer service and quality is there from day one. Coast to coast and north to south.

Fantastic. So if you need drywall help, anyone, The Patch Boys, that's what you can focus on. And by the way, we will include Bill's information in the show notes as well. So we hope this episode has been very educational for you. And remember, hire the professionals when it comes to drywall because you may not know what drywall tape Just as an FYI. But any last words that you have, Bill, that you want to share with anyone else?

Yeah, again, you know, when there's— when you have any home project, you know, many, many folks are very skilled, but if you don't have the experience and the skill level, save your sanity, save your body, Hire a pro and always look for those 5-star reviews, right? You know, don't look at price, look at quality and customer service and reliability. That makes a big difference.

Yeah, that makes a big difference.

It does.

Well, thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

And this has been a great episode of Be a Smarter Homeowner Podcast. And for any of you who know anybody who needs to know about drywall, please share this episode with them, like us, subscribe, And we will see you in the next Be a Smarter Homeowner podcast. Have a great day.

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