Ep 061 - Is Your Home a Legacy, or Your Retirement Paycheck?

Welcome to Be a Smarter Homeowner Podcast, where you'll discover strategies to save money, save time, and be better organized in managing your largest financial asset and biggest expense, your home. Your hosts, John Bodrozik and Beth Dodson, who are co-founders of HomeZada, have been supporting homeowners for over 20 years. They are here to share with you their tips and suggestions, as well as interviews with industry experts, with the goal of helping you become a smarter homeowner. Now here's your hosts, John and Beth.

Hi, I'm Beth Dodson, and welcome to Be a Smarter Homeowner podcast. Most people spend more time planning for retirement accounts than planning for the home they're actually living in during retirement. Yet many Americans, their home is their largest asset, largest expense, and often the biggest factor in determining whether retirement feels stressful or comfortable. Today we're here with Rebecca Ivy of Blue Sky Financial, and we're going to talk about incorporating our home into our retirement community, our package, and our end-of-situation, and what it means to us. Are you ready for this conversation? I know I am. Rebecca, thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me, Beth. This is super fun. I'm excited.

Super fun. Yeah, let's talk about it. So, um, first of all, let's talk about the role a home plays in retirement. And I know it can vary depending on the financial circumstances of someone who is retired, but also Whether or not they want to upsize, downsize, stay in, not stay in. I mean, it's complicated. So let's talk about your take on how the home plays a role.

Yeah.

So at Blue Sky, we really design retirement around you. So Beth is not like Mary, is not like Liz, is not like Deirdre that I just met with. Right. Everybody is different. And so how they look at the asset that is their home it's going to be different. So some people look at, like, the most common things that I hear are, I'm going to downsize, I'm going to sell the home, own nothing, be happy, and that's going to fund my retirement. Or I'm going to maintain my home and that is how I'm going to fund long-term care, right? If, if I have a need, then I have this asset that I can tap into. And most clients that I have have paid off their home, right? So now we're talking about maintenance, we're talking about what do we have to do. I rarely— interesting that you say that— I rarely have someone who's like, what I really want in retirement is a bigger house, I want more stuff to take care of. No, I don't really hear that so much. No, a girl doesn't hear that very often.

Here's one question I have about that before we finish what you're, what you're saying. Do you hear people say they want to buy another home? in addition to their existing home in retirement, or are they— or do they choose to eliminate more homes? Do you understand what I'm asking?

Yeah, sure. So some people, like, there's a wide spectrum there, right? So we have some people who, they want their beach house, right? So I live in Texas, so we have the Gulf of America down there in the South Country, right? The Gulf of America.

America.

Uh, anyway, so they want their little beach house, and so they, they might— we might— that might be a goal that we're planning for in retirement.

Okay.

But on the flip side of that, hey, I want my cabin in the woods, or I want my beach house, is my folks who are like, the way I'm funding my retirement is with real estate. And I find this happens really often with my military clients, right? Because God bless our military people. I'm so grateful for everything that they do, but they move. And typically—

Nonstop.

I had no idea, but what they— they buy a home and then when they get transferred, they keep the home and they rent it. So I have military clients who are coming to me saying, well, I have homes in all these different states and, and I've had them for years. So now my mortgage is paid off and it really is providing the cash flow that I need for retirement. So In that case, what we need to do is realize that managing those expenses from a distance is, is a big deal. And my military men especially are like, well, I've just always done that myself. And so moving into— but now I'm not the young spry 40-year-old colonel I used to be. Now I'm 67 and I'm not as— I'm still spry, but not like that, right? So navigating that property management as a function of funding your retirement. So real estate is a really— for being such a concrete asset, it's very flexible. Like, how, how are we going to use it? Are we going to just use our primary home? Are we going to sell it for the money? Right. And live in a camper van? I have clients like that. That would be more along my line. Like, sell, you know, own nothing, be happy. That's this girl.

Yeah.

because I had 7 children and 6 grandchildren, and I'm like, well, like, your girl has dealt with all the broken stuff. I'm done with the broken things. No, somebody else can have the broken things. So that's me. And, you know, here's, here's my retirement. There it is on the property. But other folks are like, no, I love my home. This is, this is the center of my legacy. This is where we all come back to. It's paid off. So that could fund my retirement either for long-term care if I have a health crisis. Now we can put a HELOC on it, or, or we could even do a reverse mortgage. And that's something that people are looking at as well, like how can we cash flow a home and still live in it? Um, which is, you know, there's endless opportunities with real estate, honestly. And it's not like, you know, I'm a very safety-oriented advisor, so it's not like Bitcoin, right, where Bitcoin could be $100,000 for one coin or 10.

Yes.

Real estate is never going to do that, right? It's, it's somewhat stable even in the flux of— sure, it's up, it's down, it's a buyer's market, it's a seller's market. Yeah, but you still have an asset, and, and that's valuable, especially in retirement.

Yes. And so When you're dealing with, um, because you brought up this subject, um, about HELOCs, also another phrase for that is home equity, and also reverse mortgages, do you find that many of your customers will use those to fund these extra components of life that you don't necessarily need when you're young? So to your point, Oftentimes when we're aging in place, sometimes that happens, people wanna update their home so that it fits their new lifestyle, whether it's wider doors, ramps, what have you. Or they run into more healthcare requirements because our bodies change over time, and maybe they need, um, more healthcare needs, more specialists, etc., what have you. Or they may even need in-home care or someone just to do some things for them. And are you finding that many of your clients are using the equity in their home to secure reverse mortgages, HELOCs, equities to help fund those type of activities, or are they using it for other things?

It depends.

Yes to all. Right.

So the beautiful thing about retirement, and this is— I am a very proactive planner. I think that— and let's just be honest between you and I, Beth, we're women. Odds are, as much as we love our husbands, I'm a fan of men. I have 3 sons. I love the men. However, I will probably outlive my spouse.

Probably.

And most of us as women will. We save less, we make less. We can, we can talk about all the reasons that that is, but it is true. And more than that, we end up being caretakers for sometimes for our adult children who come boomeranging back to us and sometimes for our older parents. So as women, this is a different aspect. So the beautiful thing about real estate is that it can be flexible, right? So when I sit down with a client, the first conversation is what are we designing? Because if we can be coordinated and we can have control, and as women we need 2 things. Yes, we need to be safe. I need to know. And that's why real estate is appealing to us because it's safe. It's not going anywhere. The market is going to crash. I'm still going to have my house, right? I'm going to have it. I can put my hands on it and we need control. So real estate really gives us both of those things. Yeah, right. And so when I work with clients, I talk about like, what is the— what, what are we designing? Because retirement is life design. Right, we've paid our dues.

Yes, great.

We've worked all the overtime. We've showed up to work with a headache. We've done all the things, missed the baseball game, all the things. And now we really get to design all of those things we put off. Now's our time. So what does that look like? And sometimes depending on legacy, like this is the big question, Beth, is our home a legacy home or is it, this is my path to live the life that I want to live because I, I've paid my dues now. And so if it's not a legacy home, then a home equity line of credit, uh, reverse mortgage, those things make sense because you're, you're planning for the eventual sale of the home in some way, shape, or form, right?

Correct.

If we do a home equity line of credit and, and we're 75, the odds are you could have another 20 years of life. I'm not saying you're you know, still have a long time to live, but the odds are that home equity line of credit will most likely be paid off at the sale of the home. Reverse mortgage, same. So you're setting up the liquidation of the home, whereas other clients are going to say, hey, I have other assets, and those are going to be my real estate investors, right? I have different homes.

Yes.

I want the cash flow, and this is my legacy. I want this for my children. I want them to keep it. This is where you grew up. It's your childhood home, right? So real estate is beautifully flexible for such a hard asset. The thing that I caution people about is if you are tight, right? And nobody wants to come to retirement clinchy, like my budget, my budget.

Yes.

Real estate can be hard, right? Because, you know, not everybody's a good guy. And I'll give you an example. So in my home, my children are finally grown. And so that means I'm replacing the carpet for the first time in 26 years because I swore that I wouldn't do it while they still lived there. Like, I will not. Y'all are terrors. I cannot have nice things because of you people. And now they're gone. Love them. Adore my children, but they're gone.

Mm-hmm.

And so I had one human come to the door and 3,000 square feet of carpet Mm-hmm. $8,000. Next person came to the door, same $3,000, same, same woman, same home, same everything. $32,000.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Uh, is it gold? Is it magical carpet? Is it gonna fly me around the house?

What is the—

so we have to be careful of these things, right? Because it's not just the home being paid off. We still have the upkeep. We still have that, and we're careful, especially as women. And I work with a lot of women. I just talked to a woman the other day, a sweet woman in Florida, and she has over $5 million saved for retirement. And she's like, I'm just so stressed because I need new garage doors.

I need them.

And I'm— I just, I don't know if I could really afford them. And I went, sweetheart, you can afford them.

You're okay.

Yes.

Let's look.

You know, and I'm not one to just pat someone on their head and say, you're gonna be okay, baby. That's not my style. We're gonna look at it logically, and I want everyone to understand. And most people feel intimidated by finance, right? They feel intimidated by the market.

Totally.

What is gonna happen? So we looked at that, and I went, and by the time we were done, she was like, oh, oh, okay. I'm like, yeah, okay. You're so good. You see? But we're careful.

Yes.

And we need to build that into our real estate plans. Is it a legacy home or is it a cash flow home? Because if it's a cash flow home, now we're in danger territory, right? Because what if the market is not cooperating? We don't want to hope and pray retirement, right? We hope the real estate market is good when we need it. We pray that it's not on the, you know, we pray it's not a buyer's market when we need to access the— in our home, right? That's not, that's not a plan. So we need to be careful about these things and be intentional, not reactive, just intentional. Your home is a beautiful asset and we, we can utilize it for retirement, but we need to be careful.

Yeah, so you brought up 2 things. So the one was it's a life design in even retirement, and then 2, you brought up, um, And primarily because of your, your clients, but I think it happens with men and women. There's an emotional component to retirement. There's an emotional component as to, do I keep my current house as part of retirement, AKA a legacy home? Do I downsize to make my life easier, more affordable, less need to deal with more maintenance-type things? Do I sell my excess homes because of property management, or do I invest in a property manager because I'm not going to be flying all over the place doing the maintenance myself or doing the repair projects myself anymore? How do you access that emotional, I guess, set of desires with your customers to help them through the process of making choices that align with this life design that you're trying to help them create?

I think that prepares us for retirement. We know preparing for retirement, you save as much as you can, you never touch it, you try to pay off the home early. But when it comes to retirement, it's scary right now. We are like, we blink and we're 67. What the heck? What just happened to my life? How did I blink and now I'm, I'm ready to retire, which is exciting, but also I'm not going to have a paycheck every 2 weeks.

Yes.

I'm not— certain things I'm not going to have, and that means security. So we have to look at and learn to trust ourselves to say how much of what we look at our home is our, our memories and our emotions and all of the, all of the life, the beautiful golden years we've had. It's—

I—

the good old, the good old days are when our kids are— I mean, I think when our kids are little, like, you look back and you go, oh, remember when you finger painted all the hallways? And I still find little star stickers. My grandchildren found these, you know, the gold star stickers you used to get on your papers.

Oh, yeah.

They must have found 1,000 of them. Because they are everywhere in my house. They're everywhere. Every time I think I've got— I've gotten them all, and then I'll look and I'm like, oh my gosh, there is another star sticker! You guys, how many stars did you find? So how much of it is that, like, I, I am nostalgic?

Totally.

And how much of it is, okay, you have to balance that with the practicality of Okay, I am 67. I do not want to mow. I do not want to weed whip. And I, I don't really want to deal with these people, you know, contractors coming over and doing those things.

No.

So walking through envisioning your future, right? What is— and that's where it comes to life design. And, and so many people, like, social Retirement education comes down to Social Security. When can I get it? How much is it?

Sure.

And how much is my 401 and how much can I safely take? Like, that is what we're taught, which is— that's not life design. That is just taking what's handed to you.

Correct.

Okay. We didn't work 40 years or 30 years to just say, well, I'm going to get what I get and I'm not going to throw a fit.

Right.

No, we're, we're gonna design this, and part of that is going to be maybe this season of rental homes is different. Maybe it still is, but it's different. We hire a property management company potentially, or maybe we cash out and we put that somewhere else that's tax protected to fund our retirement. But I, I would challenge all of your listeners to look at retirement as Like, it's your second half and you get to design it without anybody telling you what to do. Not a boss, ideally not the IRS, nobody. You get to have your cake and eat it too. Be the pickleball queen.

That's awesome.

Do that.

Yeah, totally.

So cool. Totally.

Now, speaking of which, like, so we talk about this life design. So what are the— one of the biggest myths that people Other than the one that you just said, what are some of the biggest myths that people have about retirement that they may be unaware of?

So I think that people, they don't look at it as life design, number one. So that's a unique concept for a lot of people coming into retirement is I get to design my life. But there is a default to this is my home and I will keep it and it is my home and it is my home and it is my home and I will never let it go. And so walking the path of, are we doing that because that's the right financial choice for us? Are we— which is, which is fine.

Yeah.

Are we doing it because we want to leave a legacy for our children? Super valid choice. I would encourage you to talk to your children about that. One thing that I have learned having 6 grown children— I have one little caboose still with me— is they don't want my stuff. They don't want my stuff. I'm like, I saved all this stuff for you. They're like, Mom, we don't want your stuff. You don't want my stuff? Like, talk to your children, right? Talk to them about what they want and, and what, what is valuable to them. Them because you'll be surprised, I think, at the answers that you get from your children. But there's a lot of visioning around retirement and what we want it to look like. And it's not that we— we need to be real. Like, we could have a health crisis. If you don't have long-term care and your home is that for you, then okay, then we probably need to hang on to the home. Or if we're going to downsize, we need to allocate a certain amount of those funds to, to that purpose. Like, it's not that it's all just magic and fairies and, you know, glitter. But I think there's a certain beauty and freedom to coming to retirement and saying, I get to make this what I want it to be.

Yeah.

And it's really not about the number of commas in your paycheck, right? It's not about the number of commas in your retirement account or how much, you know, maybe your house is worth A quarter of a million, maybe it's worth several million. Those are your building blocks, but we can still design a beautiful, a beautiful retirement that is what you want it to be. It's just about how we put the blocks together, right? And I, I will say to people very frequently, well, here we are, and you're probably not going to have a 90-foot yacht and gold doorknobs. I hear from the higher-ups in government gold doorknobs are very cool. You're not gonna have it. And they're like, I don't want no stupid gold. I don't want that anyway. I'm like, okay, well good, yay, because you're not gonna have it. Now let's talk about what you do want and how we're gonna get there. So it's, it's a beautiful creative process if you look, but so many of us come to it with, am I gonna be okay? Like, this is the big question, right?

Yes.

Am I gonna be okay? We come to— I have people sit across and, and go, I just need you to tell me I'm gonna be okay.

Yes, I can sense that.

Yeah, the answer is yes. And now what does that look— what does okay look like? Because for some people, okay looks like I'm gonna downsize my home and I'm gonna work part-time at the Home Depot because I love doing projects with kids. And that's beautiful to me, right? Some people are like, I wouldn't work for anybody. You couldn't pay me enough money to work for anybody ever again.

Yeah, so I can see that.

Yes to both. You can have whatever you want in retirement. That's the truth. You just need to find an advisor who's going to sit down with you and say, let's look at all the building blocks that you have built over all your time. And maybe that's one home, maybe it's Several, maybe it's other accounts, and now we're going to build it into what you want it to be.

Yeah. And so one of the questions— here's an interesting question, and, um, I don't know that there's one right answer, but because we're talking about life design and we're talking about preparation, and Hamzat is in the same boat, we're all talking about how to be prepared for things even though we can't control everything, but how to be prepared for the just-in-cases. When is the good time for people to start thinking about retirement? And what I mean by that is, I was in a position myself personally where I had to start thinking about retirement probably younger than some people. And not that I'm retired, because I'm not, but I had to start that process because I had to get legal documents in place and financial situations in place. But when is a good time to start thinking about that? And I'm assuming the best time is not, oh, I just retired.

Now what? Please no. I mean, that happens, right?

So totally.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this: when you get a job, that's when.

Okay.

That's when. Like I have, I have retirement conversations with people who are in their mid-twenties.

Brilliant.

And know that the conversation changes the older you get, right? Like, I ask— my favorite thing to say to a 25-year-old is, so when do you think you'd like to retire? And they look at me with my little white hair, and I know what they're thinking. They're like, before I'm as old as you. That's when. I'm not going to be as old. And okay, fair enough. But, and so they'll say like, I don't know, like 45. That's awesome. I love that.

Sure.

But when we— that, that's the beginning of financial education, right? To say, okay, so if 45 is your goal, what do you want your income to be? Like, if you were to say in today's dollars, I need this much money, now we can reverse engineer that and we can build things in like property, right? Yeah. So if you're 25, that's 20 years to 45. Could we own a home and get it paid off by then? Potentially. Could we? How can we? So we still have the same building blocks, right?

Yes.

And the longer our runway, the more creative— the more creative power we have, the longer our runway is. So do you have to start planning then? No, but you have a whole lot more power To create, right? When you're young. First time you have a job, first time you can actually put money away for retirement, right? That's the time to say, well— I say this to my 18-year-old children. You have no spouse, you have no children, you have no home. All you actually have is money. That's all you have. So how much can we reasonably put away without infringing on, like—

That's right.

the entertainment budget.

Totally.

Now's the time to build that in. And most of the time my kids will be like, no, I don't want to put away $500 a month, Mom, which is what I always recommend, at least $500. They're like, no. I'm like, okay, but if you do, by the time you're old and dusty like me, this is what you'll— and they're like, really?

That much?

Yeah. So it's life design. And I think we get— in this world of ours, we lose sight of the fact that we are designing our life. And whether that is— Yes, I agree. The home that we have, the job that we have, the number of children we do or do not have, the friends or the hobbies or whatever. We get to, we get to, we don't have to, we get to. So let's— there's, there's never a bad time unless it's like 72. That's— it's a little late. We can still do something, but— Right.

It's a little—

you've pushed it a little far.

Yeah, no, I agree. And so speaking of that number, 72, do you find, um, because you do work with a lot of women, do you find that Some of your clients who maybe they've allowed their spouse to take the leadership on the financial planning, and unfortunately they pass away and they're a little bit older. Do you find that there are some people who are behind the 8-ball as it relates to their retirement understanding?

Mm-hmm.

And that it's really wise for people to To take a step back, work with someone like yourself, and say, listen, we're here to help you and educate you so that we can help you build confidence. Because I know that happens a lot, and people are struggling, especially women at a certain age. They're struggling with, I, I just fully relied on my spouse to do this, and I don't have a clue. So And I guess I'm making a statement, but the question is, how do you help women that are in those circumstances if that does happen? And what advice would you give to people to avoid that? 2 questions.

So say something good and something you might— you can't avoid it. Like, let's just be clear, you, you can't, you can't avoid it. We, we are women, which means we make less. We save less and we live longer. And in the context of we make less, we save less, we live longer, we also are caretakers frequently for our adult children, for our aging parents. So that inherently puts us behind the 8-ball. And, you know, it's interesting that you follow that question up with when should you start planning for retirement? When I was 43, I was still homeschooling 6 young people, and my husband was the kind of guy who didn't like to go to the doctor. He's like, I don't need somebody with a white coat and a degree to tell me I need to lose 20 pounds. I already know that.

Correct.

Fair. He hadn't been feeling well for a while, and I made him go to the doctor. I'm like, happy wife, happy life. Get your butt in the car, we're going. An hour later, the doctor pulls me out of the emergency room and he says, I don't know what your life is like, but you better figure it out because he will never check out. I had 6 little kids. Money's not theoretical anymore. And so when do you start planning? The universe doesn't give us a warning shot.

Yes.

So I educate women on the 3 Ds. The 3 Ds for women of financial planning. One is death. You will probably lose your partner. I, I hope for— I hope for us all it's like The Notebook and pass away together in our sleep holding hands, and wouldn't that be great? But probably not. Like, be— let's just be real, probably not. You'll probably lose your partner. Divorce, right? For women 50 and up, divorce is up over 40%, and it's us. Yeah, we're filing. It's us.

Yes, correct.

We're initiating it. Enough is enough. Or desperation. And that's what hit— and it's probably some combination of the 3. Like, for me at 43, it was like, Oh, I thought I had time. I thought I had time.

Yes.

I didn't have time. So the more proactive you can be— like, as women, we need safety and we need control. And so 3 Ds, right? Probably some combination of those things. So what we want to do is Focus on what we can control, what keeps us safe, what can we control, and then we move forward from there. But know that we're going to deal— and not just women. I mean, I work a lot with women, but it's not just— that happens to men too. Like divorce, death, desperation. It's not always women. Sometimes it's men. But we need to plan for that and keep as much fluidity as possible in our planning. And, and we can do that. It still is design, but we plan for the best and prepare for the worst. Prepare for the worst, plan for the best, whichever way it is. Yes.

Both ways.

We do that.

As prevention. Yes.

Yes.

So, okay, this is beautiful. And so just to— because I know we're at time, but to end this, what's one thing that any, I guess, person can do This next year to get them prepared for retirement?

I'm gonna say 2 things. Okay, perfect.

Love it. I love 2 tasks.

Think about what you want your retirement to look like. And I know that's a struggle. Like, if you're 25, you haven't— don't, don't, don't say retirement at 65 because you have no concept of 65 at 25. Like, you can't— like, did you know the dinosaurs? How could you be older than 65? Like, you can't, you can't even, you can't get there mentally, I don't think, at 25, right? So like, but think about it as much as you like. Think about it in the context of if I didn't have to work, if I chose not to work, what would I need for income? What would I want my life to look like? Like, would you go back to school? Which I would love to go back to school. I would go back to school and get 87 degrees just because I love it, right? Some people are that way. What would that look like? So build a vision because this is life design. And whether you're working and you have 50 years ahead of you or you're working and you have 5 years ahead of you, you still get to design your life.

Totally.

The second thing is know your numbers, right? Know, know what you're saving. Know what your home value is. Like bringing it back to being a smart homeowner. What is the value of your property, have some indication of are you in a buyer's market, are you in a seller's market, is, is your particular piece of the planet going to appreciate in value or, or not, right? Where I live now in Austin, Texas, like, yeah, everybody's coming to Austin, Texas. Every— I wish not so much, but where I was raised in South Dakota, right? It In my hometown, if you find a home over $200,000, you're like, dang, it must be a doctor that lives there or something, because that's so expensive.

It's just spending. South Dakota might be a good place to live if you can't afford other places.

Oh, South Dakota's— it's, it's sacred country. Like, you'll never—

Totally.

It's just too cold for me. I can't.

Sacred. But it's beautiful.

So know your numbers. Know. And now, and now I will leave you with this. I got this from, uh, one of my obstetricians when I was pregnant with my 5th child. Uh, very nice man. I didn't— I had gained like 20 pounds with each child. So after 5, that's on a 5'4 female. That's a lot. I was a little big. I was a big girl.

Mm-hmm.

I was a big girl. And I said to him when I went in for my checkup, I said, I don't wanna step on the scale. I don't even want to know. I don't want to know. And he said in a very kind way, get on the scale, fat girl. Right? What he said was, the number on the scale isn't— it's just the number. It's not good or bad.

Right. It's just the number.

It is what you do with the number, Rebecca, that is good or bad. Are you going to feel bad and go eat a pint of ice cream? That's bad. Are you going to go for a walk in the park? These are—it's it's good or bad what happens after this. So, to a certain extent, and I say this a lot when I'm teaching, is get on the scale, fat girl. Like we don't want to look. I don't want to balance my checkbook. Sure. I don't want to reconcile my credit card. I don't want to look. I don't want to look. Awareness. You can't make a good or a bad choice if you don't know. Take an accounting of what your home value is. What what would you need revealing for Rebecca? After homeschooling for 20 years, what do I need to do to my house to actually make it not a catastrophe? Yeah, like 26-year-old carpet.

Carpet, replace it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. So there you go. I guess that was 3, but yeah, you're welcome.

No, but that's beautiful. It's so— awareness is key. Know your numbers, figure out your life plan/vision, and then you will be able to make the best decisions for your lifestyle, family, homes, etc., on how you're going to move forward. Even if you don't have all the answers and you're young and you know it's going to evolve, at least you're on the path of making it a habit to understand it. I think that's brilliant. Oh my goodness, this has been fabulous. I always love talking about preparation because I'm a big person on preparation, thus HomeZada. But for everyone out there, if you find that this information could be used by anybody, please share it with them. We want to make sure as many people are in front of all things life, and in this case also being a smarter homeowner, and your home plays a role in your retirement. So please share it. If you do that, we invite you to subscribe because if you want to hear more information and meet more people like Rebecca on our podcast, we encourage you to do that. But thank you so much for being here. We realize your time is extremely valuable and we appreciate it. But until next time, this is Beth Dodson from Be a Smarter Homeowner.

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