How to Get Your Book Published with a Major Publisher

Nina Madonia Oshman is one of the smartest people I know in the world of books. She is the reason my first book got picked up by a major publisher, Penguin Random House, and she has spent 20 years helping people turn their ideas into powerful books. Today you get to learn from her mind and her heart. If you wanna publish a book or grow your brand, then this conversation with Nina held at my mastermind group for thought leaders will change how you think about books, business, and what you can build.

Next. Enjoy, Masterminders. I'm excited to introduce you to Nina. She's been my literary agent from whatever, 15 years ago. It's crazy, crazy. Um, we met through my agent Steve, uh, and when, when he first said you need to talk to Nina, like, why do I need Nina? I have like— you're my agent. Why do I need another agent to do— like, no, no, no, Nina is a killer at all things books and We need to get your book with a major publisher. We need to get it in bookstores. We need to like be the real thing, not just like self-publish a book and throw it on Amazon and hit Amazon bestseller for like a day because you cheated the system a little bit, right? So when we launched the first book, I had a publisher in mind, and the first offer that came in was a certain amount, and Nina's like, okay, but we can do better than that.

Like, really?

That's pretty good. No, no, no, we're gonna, So she lined up a bidding war over 2 days. It was just talking with publishers for like half an hour at a time, one literally into the next. Hey, we got to go because we're going to go talk to this publisher. And created this bidding war, ended up getting 3, 4 times the initial advance. And Penguin Random House was the winner. That was my first book experience. And I know a lot of you guys either have books or are thinking about books. And it's a logical extension for a lot of people after their YouTube channels start building a brand. It's like, how do we continue this momentum forward? And Nina is a pretty hard-to-reach person, don't get on her calendar pretty easily. So I've sent people to her, it's like, okay, send me a proposal, okay. But now you get to actually meet her in person, and I'm excited to do this chat as well. And we haven't ever met face-to-face.

No, we've never met in person.

This is great.

Is this not insane how we do life, and we do so much together, and books are just such an experience, and so intimate, and so vulnerable, And then here we are, like 15 years later. It's incredible. And to be with you guys the whole time, and I know I'm just watching going, what is going on? My open mouth, open eyes, open ears. What is happening in this mastermind? But I am all here and happy to finally meet you, Evan.

Yeah. What have you learned so far in the morning of mastermind here?

I've learned about how to click things and how to turn off things and turn off things. Now, I think what the The thumbnail is pretty fascinating. I'm looking at this whole YouTube world and I'm trying to compare it to books, and especially in this morning and looking at just even talking through, you know, even looking at like a book cover, it's not the same. So it is really a completely separate vertical. So what I've learned even in this moment is you just have to test, you have to experience things, and nothing really works until you see what works? Because it changes. It seems like it changes all the time.

I mean, a huge advantage of YouTube is you can keep testing. The content itself is the content. So the inside of the book is the inside of the book, but the COVID changes as much as you want. The title, the thumbnail is like the COVID Actually, my biggest frustration with the first book was not having enough time for the COVID design.

Yeah, and you worked a long time on the COVID design.

I didn't know that the publisher I just had different expectations on the publisher side of things for how much time they put into the COVID They basically, at least in that time, gave me a couple designs. I could basically pick one. It's like, oh, I was like, none.

What are you talking about?

Like, we spent so much time on the actual book, so much time. It was a year of making the book and back and forth, and the team there was awesome. So much feedback. But then the COVID seemed like rushed at the last minute without very many options, and I didn't have a chance to get other options outside, and so we just, I still don't like the COVID of it, but it's fine, it's whatever.

I mean, but you worked hard on that, and I think what's interesting, even about book covers and your book cover, and I remember this vividly, you, it wasn't, and publishers are very particular, but I also think about that, yes, we worked 9 months on your book, and maybe 3 months on the COVID but there's always an end for publishing. There's always a moment where it's like, okay, this is it, and I think that's what happened is, I remember the words, you wanted the words on like embossed or in the background.

And that's a pretty good memory if it was like 15 years ago.

I know, I can't believe I'm remembering this. Okay, it's good. Your One Word on Amazon.com, check it out, or on EvanCarmichael.com.

Your One Word.

The, the— thank you, it is really beautiful.

I mean, it really, it was.

And yes, he should get a bidding war. That's why it's like so different. I'm like, this YouTube— I'll never forget when he was talking about Oh yes, YouTube. It's like he's had this whole setup, your whole setup in your room and in your, in your office. And I'm like, what is going on? Just get to the content, get to the book, get to your words, get to the paragraphs.

And then who knew?

I mean, look at this. That's incredible. It's really incredible what you've done and what you built. But yes, to the COVID yeah, you do spend a lot of time on it, but not— you can't test it like this world, right? Like, well, we can switch it. You can't switch it because then if you're global, then if you publish your book in different languages, you really want to keep it consistent in those languages, those images. And so I get why you were so focused on certain things, but I also understand that we got to move, right?

So yeah, fair enough.

No, I mean, you learn a lot through the— and you were great to the first book as well because I had no idea. Okay, well, let's start with this. Certain people creating content, building their brand, they're going to YouTube. What do they need to know? When are they ready to go and get a book with a major publisher?

Wow.

Okay, who has published a book before in this room? Who has published a book? Okay, just a few. Self-published, published. Yeah.

Okay.

Who wants to publish another book or wants to publish a book?

Okay.

I think everyone in this room could publish a book. It doesn't matter necessarily if it's a top publisher or something that's self-published. You've published a book.

So I have this—

yes, I love my business. I love what I've done for 20 years. I live in Dallas, Texas. I was started in TV and film and then was recruited to work at a major agency where— that's where Evan and I met, primarily nonfiction. And what I learned is that first-time authors were— yes, it's a learning curve, but then you are able to really kind of make it your own. And so now I think in 2025 and beyond, I think anyone can publish anything. And I would hope that everyone in this room not only thinks that they can be an author, but that they should be an author because it is a separate vertical, I think, for entrepreneurs. It is a completely separate, um, business, uh, lead gen, um, or really anything that if you want to create something, create content that's deeper, publish a book. I think the, the main thing is to— you're ready when you're ready. Um, it takes a long time to publish a book, and so you want to be thoughtful about how you present that book to your audience. And you also want to be thinking, um, how does this look? Because books stand the test of time. It isn't something that you can retest. You have to really kind of put your foot in the sand when you write your book. So I think it's, yeah, it's anytime is the right time to start getting ready for your book. But I would really think that your, that your content, because it takes so long, you need to really be clear on what your concept is. I don't even think it's like getting a major publisher because you already have the attention, right? But I think for you in the room, yeah, you could have 10,000 followers or a million followers, you're ready.

So everybody here is nonfiction. They're experts at like what they're great at. Can you break down the landscape of the publishers for a nonfiction author? Like where would they be going and what would they be looking for if they're trying to get distribution? Like there's the majors, like who are they, what would they look for? And then like the tier underneath, who are they, what they would be looking for?

Yeah.

So the main thing you want to look at for a publisher is their distribution and their printing. That's what a publisher does. Is they print and distribute. I think what's interesting, even with wherever you are as an author, your headspace is, well, they should be doing more. Well, what are you doing? What are you doing for your book? If you're in charge of it, you're the CEO, you're the main person that's— you're the COO, you're the CMO, you're the one that directs the team. So it's not necessarily who— what are they looking for? It's really what are you looking for? I know I'm kind of reverse engineering these, but I think we're all— we're thinking about publishing in a space where, oh, the publisher does everything. No, you're in charge.

You have to do it.

What are you doing with your business? If you don't know what you're doing with your book, then you need to rethink what you're doing on your book.

So I guess in terms of who to go to, right? So I was talking to— we help the CEO of a major, one of the major publishing houses. He said, hey, anybody who hits your radar who's got 100,000+ subscribers, that's for YouTube. That's kind of the level we start to look at for considering giving them a book deal. And then it's a question of what is the— is there an advance and how big is the advance, right? But the 100,000 subscriber mark is one of the main things that he's looking for, specifically YouTube, because the other platforms are way more easy to game and don't mean as much. Have you— like, is that accurate beyond that one publishing house? Is that— are there other thresholds for maybe a smaller player?

Or if you want to deal but you don't care about the advance, you just want to be able to get it in stores, I think what you should be looking at, I think that's a great point about the publisher, I think what you should be looking at is retention and what the feedback is from your audience. What does the audience want from you? Are they, is there a frequency of what's, you know, in one week are you hearing the same thing over and over again? Like, okay, are they wanting to talk about hemorrhoids more than not, Dr. John? Or, right, or is it lymphedema? You know, or is it, And I want this to be an open dialogue. I know we're gonna do the questions, but I think it's, publishing is, yes, there's a model and there is a top tier, but there's also so many different ways to grow your business and it depends on your goals that then that's how you are able to actually publish correctly. So yes, there is a threshold of like 100,000 followers or I do think the gaming of the system, you're right, like on other social, but also if there's a really awesome article on LinkedIn that has completely gone viral and gone crazy, and there's one sentence that we can pull and make that the theme of your book, I can sell that to a publisher. So in terms of like the— I think, yes, there's a top tier of publishers, but we're neglecting that there's also a huge landscape of authors and content out there that's not top tier, that maybe you don't need the top tier, right? Like, what is the point of that? I'm not trying to be philosophical, but what is the point of getting the top tier when maybe You need a book right now to then bring in more people. But yes, for the major top 5 publishers in America, and then again, if you're thinking about the world, it is a certain, say, threshold. But it's also, wait, that's an amazing article that they wrote on LinkedIn and it got, you know, 10,000 likes, but the likes were so concentrated in a certain amount of time, then yeah, let's go and take that and sell it to market and we may get that top publisher.

Yeah, and that's where I found you like extremely helpful when I was talking to Steve like, what do I need a lit agent for? I've got you. It's like, no, no, no, but Nina needs to position it properly for the publisher, right? So if you guys have ideas of angles of a book, you run it by her brain while she's here, because like that's a cool angle and I would tweak it like this, so that you have at least a directional sense of what to do if you're thinking about the book.

I also think too, just to pause right there, You have said it in your books, like, the only opinion that matters is yours. So like, let's be honest about that. Like, yes, you can take my opinion, you can take the publisher's opinion, but if you really believe in something that's really specific and you really want to publish it, you need to see it through. You need to make sure you're clear on the goal, but do it, right? Like, just like with the book cover, I think you won on the book cover front because you wanted all the words on the thing and you won. So I think with everything in life—

it's a small win, it's a small one—

but with everything, you know, you're the one that's in the driver's seat. Your opinion matters. So yes, like, I agree, you need a literary agent no matter where you go. You need someone who is in the trenches here, because again, I'm open mouth, wide eyes, wide ears, going, what is going on in YouTube? I need you guys just as much as you need someone who's an expert in publishing. We all need each other.

You can't do it on your own.

What are some of the mistakes when negotiating some of these deals? Like, one that I wish I had was how many books I get up front.

Yeah.

And what my ability to buy new books would be, because a lot of the funnels and distribution techniques that you can use for online marketing didn't work for me because buying a book from them costs too much money.

Yeah.

So any publishing house will let you buy your books at an obviously cheaper rate than sticker price, right? But it was still too high a dollar amount for what I wanted to do for the final side, which I just didn't think about. And so I forget what they gave me, like 50 books or something that they started, or 100, but like not a lot of books, right? And then to buy them myself would still cost me a lot of money. So that's just one example that comes to mind, like, oh, I wish I had thought about this in advance. What are some of the mistakes that authors are making when they're working with a major publisher?

I think in publishing, you know, it's changing and it changes every day, and we're all afraid. Like in 2008, oh my gosh, ebooks! Can you imagine when ebooks came out? That was like the biggest, scariest thing ever. And look how we've really kind of— it's not like CDs, it's not like movies. Like, people are still going to the theaters as well, but, you know, books are here. Books are the oldest content around, and I think it's a way of being able to access people differently. So don't be afraid to look at other ways to publish. And I'm speaking this to everyone. I love my business. I love the industry. I do think, again, depending on your goals, there are different ways to publish that aren't just like the major publishers, because you're major. Like, let's assume you're major, and maybe you don't need a major publisher who's not going to give you enough books. So I think that there's ways to look at this. In terms of contracts, I look at a couple of things that you always should people just like think about in business. You know, it's all the numbers, right? Look at the numbers. Really outline your goals with how you want this to be succeed, whether it's units per— for you buying the books or your royalties, or if there's a way that maybe there's a subsidiary, right, or a licensing deal that you want to retain. Those are the things that I think of, like the numbers. You want to make sure you're really clear on your numbers. You also want to make sure that deliveries and that there's like a mutual understanding of what you need to deliver and what the publisher needs to deliver. And then the third thing is always like what's next, like the option, making sure that do you, can you get out of this deal? Is there an option to publish again? Publishing is the most, again, it's my business, but publishing has this high integrity. Everything's still kind of handshake, and if you're talking to someone who you don't think is a handshake guy, run. Publishing is incredible, and the top publishers or the, you know, someone, again, your next-door neighbor could be an amazing publisher, but you just want to make sure that that contract is something that you agree to. It's not going to be perfect. It's not a compromise because if they're publishing your book, you're giving them the rights to publish in primarily 3 types: the print, electronic, and the audio. Audio's a little different nowadays, but you know, you just want to make sure you're in a good partnership with your publisher. I think what's funny though, I didn't even think about the copies situation. That's still a problem. Like the copy thing for authors who need to give away or who want books, you know, but you don't want to give away all your books, right? So this is why you need to think, again, what is a major publisher if you're also major? Like if you're a major, brand, what makes sense to you and what would be worth it to you. If it is 1,000 books, you need to probably think and rethink about what— how you want to publish your book, because the top-tier publishers who have distribution all over the world, they're not going to give you 1,000 books without knowing— without paying for them or something, right? It's a, it's a mutual benefit. But again, you're giving them the rights to do that. You've got to have to give something up. I think that's what's hard is that authors, especially nowadays, go, okay, well, I— well, they should be giving me the books. Well, do they need to give you the books? Because you gave them the right to publish and you gave them the right to print it. So is that what you're looking for? Are you looking for $1 million? Are you looking for 1,000 books? Does that even answer it? Because this is a rabbit hole that I go down.

Yeah. Even just the ability to see books at the beginning to get buzz going, to send out, you know, galleys. At least for me, it always felt like behind. Like, I need galleys, guys. I need like— yeah, my, my second book, um, Built to Serve. So Built to Serve, uh, I think it's a great book.

It's a great book. It's who he is. I mean, that's what's a great—

okay, sorry, you can say, say whatever you want about Built to Serve.

And, and, and You're One Word, again, I think there's a belief in there.

And obviously there's other books that he's done, but You know, this is when you, you want someone who is a champion, but can you imagine there's so many other people in the world that could be saying it like me, right? That's what's different about the book space, right? And I could have a whole TED Talk on why books are unique and why they're like the best and why everyone should write one. So that's for later. But the Built to Serve, you know, that was a whole different game as well, right? I mean, that was a different publisher and I think that's when you What's really fun about books is that you shouldn't just do one. If you're doing one, um, I think you should always think about there's another one, another one. Now you shouldn't do 'em all at the same time, but definitely think about like, as you build your, your book brand, you're able to access other people, other, um, other aspects of your brand. And so thinking about each book as a different vertical is helpful as well. That was my point.

This group here and the people watching will be focused on marketing. Yeah, it's an entrepreneur group. A lot of authors don't know much about marketing, and so they struggle. But I think marketing first, like, how are we gonna then talk about this book? And so my advice would be to start thinking about your marketing plan, because the publishers may not be— they're not great at marketing either. At least—

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, number one, authors are great marketers, okay? They just need to be taught certain things. Again, like this YouTube room, this mastermind, I just need to be taught and I need to do it and feel like it feels right to me. Publishers are great marketers. Publishers are B2B. Okay. They're not thinking of your C. So they're B2B. They are thinking of the bookstores. They are thinking of other book markets. They're thinking of international markets. They're thinking of audio publishers. So they are great marketers, but they're, they're not thinking of it like you're thinking of it. I think that's what I want to say.

Yeah.

So, you know, like you need to have a marketing plan. Like, how are you going to get this out? How are you going to get people talking about it? I mean, from my experience with the major publishers and helping them on the YouTube stuff, especially for their big authors, they'll pick like one main author a month to really push hard, and everybody else is like, "Okay, kind of whatever," right? It's on you to reach out and get the galley copies out to people and ask for reviews and do the packages. Like, if you're expecting them to come in and help you with all of your packaging, I think you need to go and educate yourself more on book marketing. Yeah, they're great on the editing and the distribution and all that stuff, and to sell to the bookstores. Yes, like they'll get it in the bookstores. Yeah, but you then have to drive people to the bookstores, right? Right. So what's the marketing plan? And thinking about that from day one instead of it being, yeah, I don't know, we'll figure it out once the book comes out. Like, that's—

no, I agree, right?

That's too late.

Yeah.

You said— I'm trying to think what we did with audio, but for Built to Serve, it was we we pulled it out, like we sold the audio to somebody else. So an international was somebody else. It wasn't all bundled together. So how should people be thinking about domestic, international, and then audio rights? Audio rights is huge now.

Super fun. Again, major publishers retain those now. So, you know, you have to find other ways, and this is why you need an agent, a confidant, a champion, a Sherpa, whatever, to be like really thoughtful of, Alright, what?

Nina is the book Sherpa.

I'll carry your load, but you will also have to walk with me, so just know that. You're not doing this alone.

She had that ready. She had that ready. She had that ready. Okay.

You're not— I didn't have it ready, but, you know, thank you. Okay, so if the book audio rights are sold to someone else, well, what are some other audio ways that I can bring people in to then buy the book so that it's mutually beneficial for the publisher that you sold your book to? So if you're thinking about audio, yes, you did, we slice and dice, but the audio specifically is something that, again, you're selling your rights to the publisher, or you can also retain them, and then you can also splice, maybe there's like a way to take one chapter and then turn it into a story, but you have to negotiate this, to then make the audiobook something better for, I don't know, what's gonna be new on YouTube or something where you just do an audio splice, but don't ever read the book and post it online. I think that's what you wanted to do too. I feel like there was something you wanted to do where you wanted to like read the book. Like you can't read a whole book on Instagram or on YouTube and send that out to people. That doesn't work. I would assume that that doesn't work for your world too, right?

Yeah. I mean, we, I struggled on the audio side. Uh, so one, we split it up and then I remember I had, I recorded it at the, at Justin Bieber's recording studio in downtown Toronto, which is wild. Um, but then I was struggling in reading my own book.

Ah.

So I had a producer in studio, and then I had a technical producer and a producer in LA who's catching stomach gurgles and all this stuff that I didn't even think about. Like, hey, your stomach gurgled.

Say that again.

What? Yeah, your voice is dry. Drink a little water. I can hear your lips smacking.

OK.

But I was struggling on the words, right? Like, I wasn't reading my own words properly. I have them like 85% correct, but any time I stumbled a little bit and I said something else, they stopped me.

It's like, no, no, no.

You didn't do that. And it was ruining the flow. It's like, this is gonna take—

And your flow too.

My flow, like I can't, I'm in a flow, like just let me keep going. And we had, I don't know if we called you or we had to call the publisher. I think we called you, I don't remember. But it's like, hey, if it's my word, I'm not gonna sue myself for saying the wrong thing. As long as I'm not doing a direct quote of like Marcus Aurelius and misquoting him or something, like can I just go? And we got the approval that I could, and then I went a lot faster.

Was this built to serve or was this—

No, that was built to serve. I'm pretty sure it was built to serve. I'm thinking back, but that was a big struggle. It's like 2.5 days in the studio, and it's hot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's hot because they don't have any air, like that impacts the noise.

Yeah, you don't think about all those little things. Some authors now just read the introduction. Some authors are really, and most, again, depending on the publisher, depending on what you want to do, authors want to read their book. But they're not equipped to doing it. So it's okay if you don't read your book, but a lot of people wanna hear it in their voice. Nowadays, publishers are retaining those to say, "Okay, we'll give you the option to do it, but if there's a point where," not when you're in studio, but if there's a point that we think, you know, you try out, and then if they think, "Well, you know, maybe it's someone else, Evan," then, you know, you have to be okay to say, "All right, I'll let someone," do it who trains in voiceovers and trains in reading a book for 8 hours. And it actually, if it was 2.5 days, it normally takes 5 days depending on the book. So it can be very, a long process, long, long process. Okay, so then what's fun is then you can take your audiobook, if you retain the rights, then you can sell it in each country, not just with the usual suspects as I call them, the print, e, and audio, but then you can sell the little audio splicing to a foreign country or, you know, to a foreign territory. And then you're selling it to them in their audio, and then they may come to you and say, actually, we want to take your book content and put it into an anthology with others. Would you want to do that in that particular country? And then you can go back to America and say, or to the, to the English rights holder and say, well, we're doing this anthology in China. We want to do this in America. I mean, it's so fun when you can, you're able to really distill the information into many different ways for readers to access.

And that's not just audio, because my book was in Korean and all these languages, like the actual book book.

Yep, the actual book. And then—

And that was outside of the major publishing house. It was sold separately.

Yes, but you don't— I have a lot of authors. I work with publishers to then sell their catalog to countries or throughout the world. And, you know, a lot of authors, again, nowadays with the world of, well, I can do it myself, you just don't want to. You just don't wanna do it yourself because the contracts, you don't want your IP to go in different ways. That's what we were talking about earlier. I'm kind of blown away about citing and sourcing, you know, people on ChatGPT, which is a whole other TED Talk I could do because it, it seems like this is a such a fascinating world, this new world. But again, words, your words are king. And so you want to make sure you're not taking those or someone else is taking them and not sourcing and citing you.

We were talking just before we came up about YouTube strategies we've used to help authors sell more books, right? So obviously the, the more you get views and subscribers on your channel, the easier it is to have your own distribution as well as get closer to getting a major publisher, if that's the goal. On the flip side then, how do you use YouTube channel to sell more books? We've done a bunch of campaigns with people who've hit the list. The way to hit the list is not people walking into bookstores mostly. It's you selling bulk packages to people. And so you're thinking, hey, if somebody buys 5 books, they get this small thing. If they buy 10 books, they get this. 100 books, 500 books, 1,000 books. That's— you're trying to sell as many of the packages as possible, which is usually trading your time for money. So in our world, it's usually you're doing a speaking event, and you don't get paid your speaking fee, they're buying books. You're a consultant, they're not gonna pay you your consulting fee, they're gonna buy books instead. A very common thing is that authors will then trade their coaching time, like, "Hey, you get to spend half an hour with author if you buy 100 books." And depending on the author, that number goes up. It's 50 books, 100 books, 500 books, whatever. So what we've helped people do is then, okay, but make that, make that content. So if you're trading your time for money anyway, make that a video that then gets put up on your YouTube channel. That what happens in the video, well, you can say, well, here's Johnny, and Johnny just bought 500 copies of my book. Right now we're talking about the book without it being a pitch for the book. Johnny's gonna say, I'm so excited to read the book, or I got my first copy yesterday, it's so amazing. He's talking about the book, and then the content is actually very easy to make. It's just, okay, Johnny, like, what's on your mind? How can I help? And then John is going to ask you questions, and then you spend half an hour answering questions, and now you have content that can go on the YouTube channel that then also promotes the book, but then can also be clipped for social, clipped for the Amazon page, all of it. As long as it's not a bait-and-switch like, surprise, you're going to go on my YouTube channel. They know, and you, you bake it in as promotion. By buying this, you get the time with you, and you also get to be on my YouTube channel. And so it's the easiest content to make because you're just showing up and answering questions. You're being interviewed. And it helps you sell the packages of the book. So provided you like helping people and you're not like the super introvert who never wants to ever talk to a human again, compared to sitting in front of a camera and making thought— most authors hate making thought leadership content. A lot of authors who work with, like who are author-authors, they don't like making videos. It's not their happy place. And so, That's hard. Get in front of a camera, New York Times bestselling author, get in front of a camera and make a video on like 8 ways to solve lipedema. Like, they just won't do it.

But don't you think it's a different way too? Don't you think there's other ways to do that? Like, I love that you're saying that authors, I just think there's the muscle that hasn't been worked. Like, I'm gonna have to do this, right? Here's 3 tips to how to negotiate your literary agreement, right? Like, I mean, I think everyone has to do this Eventually, right?

I mean, yes, it's like a yes and, right? It's like yes, and what's the easiest way for them to get started?

Right.

So ultimately I would say everybody should be making content. You have a mission, it's your duty, it's your responsibility to get it out to the world. And that's a skillset that you should work on, not just to sell more books, but to impact humanity.

Right.

Yes.

And okay, how do we get started in a way that's gonna be— people quit because they don't see the immediate ROI. So how do we generate the ROI? Well, we're gonna sell 500 copies of your books at a time. And a lot of authors are doing that anyway with their packages just behind the scenes instead of make it public. And in any of these coaching sessions that you're doing, if you fail, just don't publish the video.

Right?

Like if you don't, if it's not a good session, you don't know how to answer the question, they storm out and hate you, okay.

Just don't publish it.

Don't publish it.

Yeah.

Right?

But I always think that, so it's interesting what you said about like the ROI for books is like, really hard to find, okay? Like really hard to find because you can be selling 500 book packages or you're like, wait a second, I didn't even sell 500 that week, and it can feel really, really hard. It's like really sad, but there's so many other ways to find different ROIs in books, I think. And so even with like the bestseller launch plans to get on the bestseller list or even just like make a dent on Amazon just to move up the ranking there, Um, there's so many different ways, I think, to find out how you're gonna get your ROI. I do think it's beneficial, yes, to record your content everywhere. Like, I think, yes, you have to record everything because maybe you're not gonna post the whole thing, but maybe there's something you can take from that and turn it into, you know, social content or a LinkedIn article or, you know, what you're saying. Maybe it's not a YouTube 20-minute or an hour thing, but maybe it's 5 minutes. Do you think you could do that?

There's just levels of difficulty.

Yeah.

And so, Starting at the easiest level, then generates ROI. Like if you tell an author, hey, are you anybody here? Like you need somebody to follow you around 24/7, fly them to Toronto, film you here, film you answering questions. That's a lot. That's a heavy lift, especially on the editing side, because now you have 20 hours of content where most of it's crap and now it really needs to be edited down versus a thought leadership content where you're direct, you you're speaking direct to camera, talking head video, answering 5 questions is a lot easier lift versus just sitting and talking to somebody is a much easier lift. And you're talking to the questions they're going to ask you are questions you hopefully know the answer. They're going to ask you questions related to your— I'm going to ask Dr. John about health question. I'm not going to ask him about the Lakers game last night. Maybe I don't know if he's a Lakers fan. Right there. That's a low-scoring game, John. It doesn't sound like a Lakers game, but It's easier to make. So it's yes, like I think ultimately everybody should have a content production team. That's marketing in the modern era. And how do you get started in an easy way that feels worth it and is not a giant struggle, right? Like the only way to get healthy and work out is to do like Ironman. Okay, everybody should then do an Ironman, but there's probably— how do we make it easier for people to get started in doing it?

And I think it's not even— I love that, yeah, just getting started in filming your you don't have to have 500 books, you know, sold to then film your content online with, you know, a coaching call or something, right? You don't have to have a guaranteed 500 per, 'cause a lot of people who are just starting are like, well, I can't get 500. Well, you can get 5 or you can get 10. And I think, or it's like, you know, you could have your best friend be that coaching person and just kind of talk through and maybe that's even easier, a lower lift, right? A lighter lift. Just have like someone on the other side answering those questions for you.

Yeah. Yeah. At the beginning, if $500 is too much, like the numbers scale up. For somebody, $500 is too much, it's $50, it's $5. Others, $500, they wouldn't even touch it because it's too small. It's got to be $5,000 to have the one-on-one time, right? So you can play with those numbers. The point is you're getting easy content. It's the easiest content to make because you're just showing up and answering questions around an expertise that you already have. And authors, if you're playing the game, like you're already doing this anyway, trading your time for money. Now we're just filming it. And then that's also a pretty easy lift on the editing side. You don't need to have fancy editors and an entire production team to have that as a piece of content versus a studio setup. Like that's a Zoom call, that's a Riverside call, right? Versus a studio setup versus a travel vlog, like you're following you around on your journey, right? So just how do you, that's all, everybody here is an entrepreneur or they're business owner. You don't make money from the book, you make money from the, exposure and putting it into your business process. So before they work with you or while they're working with you, you send them their book, right? So they have a lot more context on who you are. You're not making money really off royalties unless you're selling just crazy numbers. Like, that's not the reason. You don't get rich off of your royalties for the book for the most part, unless you're—

No?

No, you don't.

I'm not.

Yes, and.

In nonfiction? I like the yes, and.

Yes, anding. I'm on a yes, and.

Yeah.

I was talking to Nick the other day. He's like, He said, "No is the ultimate yes and." Right? It's like, "Yes and." It's just a polite way to say no, right? Instead of saying no, it's like, "Yes and." Thank you, Evan.

You "noed" me like 10 times on this discussion.

No, no, no, no, no.

"Yes and." It's great.

It's great. That was a Nick thing.

You can hate on him.

It's totally wrong.

Yes, the book is like an iceberg, right? Because we're not— I'm, if you want content from Evan, you don't read a book. You go to his YouTube, then you go look on social, then you go see him speaking, then you go see, oh, and then maybe the book, oh, maybe I'll buy that book. Like, it is the hardest sell, right? For someone to buy a $30 book, it's really difficult. But once you do, then you've got them locked in and you're able to then, like, you know, keep them into your network. And those are the people that then show the global, the global expansion. And what I mean by like the iceberg is like, I'm reading it, Evan's not reading it to me, and so I'm identifying with it so, like I'm connecting with it so much, it's almost like it's this experience for myself to then be transformed. So, I don't know how it feels to have that YouTube thing, but I haven't heard any, YouTube thing, I don't know what I'm saying there. I don't know how it feels to have someone like your, or subscribe on YouTube, but I know how it feels when someone read your book and says, "It changed my life. It changed my life." So there's something— I've been trying to sit here when I've been watching, listening to everything Evan's saying, and trying to connect books and YouTube, and it can't. There's no connection. There's no similarity. I think the similarity is that, yes, it's you and it's your content, but it is just a completely separate, incredible vertical that everyone should incorporate into their business.

When Steve, our mutual friend, said you need a book. I didn't think I needed a book. It's like, I can open doors with my YouTube channel. Like, I don't need a book. There's no point. And he still forced me down the path of writing a book just because. Like, okay, trust in Steve, do whatever. But in that process, I came up with the manuscript or the concept of the manuscript for Your One Word. And I thought, you know what? This actually fits better as a book than a series of YouTube videos. Like, I could have taken all those chapters and turned them into different YouTube videos. But having them all in one spot just felt better as a book than as a series of YouTube videos. So I think they can inspire each other. Like, your videos can definitely inspire what you turn into content, and vice versa. If you've written a lot, you can turn those into YouTube videos. But I think that's when you know you have a book, too, is like, this feels better. I'm not doing this just for my brain, but actually there's a concept here that feels better in book format that I can still talk about in my videos, but as a condensed thing right here altogether, that's when I really went all in on Your One Word. And we started talking to you and creating the manuscript because it just, it felt a lot like this is actually a book now.

That's cool to hear that because I think a lot of people are like, I don't need to write a book, bro. Oh God, that seems so long. I don't even read. And then you're like, oh wait, I read every day. I don't even realize it. So, and wow, we, some people still have bookshelves, right? Some people still have Actually, a lot of people still have books on their nightstand, so be one of those. Try to be one of those, 'cause it really does transform people. But I love it for the author as a sole piece of work. Yeah, it's nice to have it all collected together. And again, they do mutually support each other.

All right, let's throw it over to you guys. I'll pass the mic to Markham.

Okay, I'm told when you use a top-line or regular publisher, you lose some rights to the actual book, the IP. Is that— And I could have this wrong.

You share them. You share them. So it's still your IP, it's still your copyright, but you share some of these splits with them. So when I was talking about subsidiary or other licensing deals, you'll share them with them. And again, the usual suspects, print, e, and audio are like the ones that you do give up, I guess.

So can I take one of the chapters and print it to try to promote that topic, or I can't even—

If it's less than 10%, yes, but you always wanna ask—

If it's what?

Less than 10% of the entire body of work.

Got it, okay.

You always wanna ask, I think that there, I think again, every contract's different, and you can negotiate whatever you want, and if you have a good agent, you can negotiate whatever you want.

Are you a good agent?

I'm a great agent, I'm the best agent. I would say that the 10% is like the norm, And I don't know, I think this is like goes back to something and I don't know what. I'll chat to you and they'll ask me what it is or give me an answer.

So that downside is balanced by the upside of getting it distributed into bookstores and all of that because you just really want— I'm going to tell you, I saw Evan on stage and then I bought his book and now I'm here.

See? So there's many different ways for people to access the book. I would say that, yes, one of the big benefits is for it to be in bookstores. I have so many authors years down the road still getting royalty checks, still seeing some sort of benefit. How did I sell 200? Like, that's what I love, this interesting world of testing and being able to find exactly, you know, finding out which side is better than which side. But when you look at your royalty statement 10 years down the road saying, I sold 1,000 books last royalty period?

How?

I don't even touch that book in years. That's why you write a book, because it's the long-term effect of, wow, I've really impacted a lot of people, and I don't even know where they're being impacted, but then they're coming into your website, they're watching your YouTube, so it's almost like, yes, you listened to Evan, then you did, then you bought the book, but there's so many people that buy the book, then go to YouTube, right, or then go to social, so.

Thank you.

So I have always been told I need to write a book, so I love, I mean, I'm a writer by nature. So I am writing one right now, And so, what is your, first-time author, okay, so what's the first thing? I mean, other than like putting notes down in an outline and all this stuff, I can go to, you know, any website and find out the step-by-step, but who do you think the first partner is in the book writing experience? Is it a coach? Is it an agent? Is it, you know, what's the next step? It all depends on where you've started. Like, if you're really not even have, you just have a pen and paper, I would say getting your concepts down on paper and clarifying those, to then say, to then feel the, feel the, the intensity of, or the feel some sort of like tension between you saying, oh, I really need a writing coach, or I really need an agent. I think that's where you'll be like, where do I begin? Is just start with the pen and paper and, or even your notes and just like dictate going down a rabbit hole of what do I wanna write about? If you've got the concept clearer, then get the agent. Agent first. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people though are like, I don't even know where to begin. I don't even know what an agent does. I don't know what a publisher does. Why do I need a publisher? Why do I need an agent? And so those questions will be answered once you get the agent or once you talk to different people. A lot of— I think there's like some gatekeeping of like when you talk to the agent, just talk to people who then— again, like Evan. Evan has an agent. Talk to Evan and see if you want to talk to me or come talk to me. You guys know me now. And then "Then we'll see if it's a fit." Right, there's a reason why you're sitting next to me. I think it happened by, you know, I think the universe put it together. Exactly. I understand the role of a literary agent in negotiating with a publishing company, but can you negotiate directly with bookstores and self-publish? Or is there other reasons to have an agent if you've chosen to self-publish? So, the, yes, I think there's, well, and I don't, I think there's, every agent is different, right? I mean, every person is different. I think that after your book is published, like even with Markim's book, that's, I don't know who published it or if you self-published it, but I think that you need to have at least 500 reviews on Amazon before you even look at a second book. You know, but I think, but that's the kind of stuff that you don't know 'cause you've got other stuff to do. So I think having some sort of, you know, either a book strategist or a publishing expert or someone that you can kind of bounce ideas off on, yes, is the, for the life of the book is important. If you don't have someone who is helping you get in front of those bookstores, then yes, you could do it on your own. I just don't think it's as— But you can do that. You negotiate with bookstores and things like that. Yes, 'cause there's, but I would say that the publishers have the best relationship with the big chains. And then, locally is like, you know, that's when you can strategize with someone like an agent to see, okay, what is— is it necessary to go to all the bookstores or should I just focus on my one area that, you know, where I live, my next door?

So, one of my favorite books is by Shel Silverstein, Silverstein, The Missing Piece Meets the Big O. It's like a massive impact. I mean, the first book was Evan's book? One Word?

Your One Word. There's another book called One Word.

Oh, just a cheap copy. We don't even talk about it.

Nope. Your One Word. Your One Word.

Yeah, it was the test. So, uh, but my dream is to publish a children's book, um, and so is the success path for, uh, a children's book different from something like personal development, you know, uh, Built to Serve, all that?

Children's is a whole nother world for a couple of reasons. The first one is it's illustrated. If you're the artist that's illustrating it, that's not a variable. But to get a publisher and to get an agent, it's a whole other world. I focus on nonfiction because I like talking to you and making sure you can, you know, sell your book. But I would say for children's, it is also like, there's age, like, you know, are you doing a book from 0 to 12? You can't. Are you doing a book from 0 to 3? There's so many different ways. I would actually, challenge you and say, is it a children's book first and is it something else? And then doing the children's books after that. I'm not trying to encourage more work, but I do think like sometimes—

Why do I want the book to exist? For who is it really for? That's what you're saying.

Yeah.

I understand.

Evan, for example, has been teaching his one word for years and years. He wrote a book on it. Now, when he continues to teach that around the world, whatever, What rights does the publisher now have? What does he have to— like, what is he giving up on his IP that was foundational for him? Like, I'm confused.

Yeah, there's nothing. I mean, that's what I think. And unless— I mean, I'm not an attorney, so I'm not an attorney, so I don't know all the specifics, but I've been doing this for 20 years, and I, I think this misconception— there's two misconceptions that I always, like, think about, and I wish I could, like, I'm on a crusade to like debunk these two myths. One is you're giving up your rights.

No, why?

How could you give up your rights? They're yours. Your name. Yeah, but you're— it's your name on it. How could you give up that right? And two is the major publishers. Like, okay, what is this, like the cool kid crowd? Like, are we trying to get to the cool kids? I struggle with that. And it's not because— believe me, I love the major publishers and they're my friends and I love, yeah, they're the best people in the world. They're the smartest people. They're smarter than me. But like, this isn't about like, it's your work 'cause you've copywritten it. It has your name on it. So I think 10 years down the road when Evan's speaking, it's still his book and he is going to be able to monetize from that speaking engagement and then also sell books to 500 people, 1,000 people he's talking to. I struggle with that. And maybe it's 'cause I don't understand where it comes from. And maybe it's 'cause I haven't had an experience where someone is giving up their rights. Like I've never, in fact, okay, the one thing that's been really interesting, and I don't know if you guys have seen it, but there'll be a book and then there's a workbook right afterwards. Like on Amazon, if you look at Evan's, there's like then a Your One Word. And I don't know, maybe Evan likes that, but there'd be like a workbook. That has been generated by someone somewhere in the world that is taking your IP and putting it on Amazon, but it has your name on it and has your book title on it, but it's still a workbook that you didn't create, but that's on Amazon and it's not on bookstores and you're not selling it, you're not promoting it. So again, back to like YouTube and being able to have your content reposted, I don't think it's a problem, but people, there are teams at the publishing houses that are dedicated to taking those off of Amazon.

But I mean, that makes sense. And it's everybody in their own best interest, right? Like, that's in the publisher's best interest to take it all down. Personally, it's like, it's great.

Yeah, right.

Somebody wants to make a workbook out of my thing.

I mean, that's what I've learned from Evan in 10 minutes is like, just do it. Like, just see what happens. Just do it. Although it's like every being in my body is saying, no, don't do it because of— But then no, just do it because—

As long as it's on brand, like if it's Evan Carmichael's speech on how to kill chickens or something, like okay, that's not—

But if it's how to kill chickens and doesn't say Evan Carmichael, would that—

Like my voice? What is it?

No, it just says how to kill chickens and they took your content and they didn't even put your name on it. I don't know. Yeah, so you're fine with it.

I mostly don't care.

You mostly don't care.

I just don't spend time on defense and then worrying about these things. Yeah, move on. Mostly.

Yeah.

As long as it's not absurdly bad, or it's like a lot of times it's just not even worth punching down. Like, what's the impact? How many books are sold? How many people are actually looking at this page? For the most part, it's like all tiny nothing burger things. So like, why am I worrying about these things? Yeah, I just don't. I mean, if it starts blowing up, then maybe, then maybe, but then it starts blowing up, then it's a lawsuit. But that's not also my— like, Nina's great at that stuff. My team is good at that stuff. I don't even know my phone number, so I don't pay attention.

Are there limitations or advantages that you've seen someone self-publish and then they take the thing that they self-publish and then they go and try to pitch it?

Terrible, terrible idea. Terrible idea.

Stop.

That's where it's like going back to like self-publishing, do what you can with the book that you're working on and then like do all that you can. And that's when you reach out to somebody and say, I need help, I need support. But I would also say no, do a different idea. Don't ever go repurpose it, repurpose the same thing to the people that you wish you would have talked to the first time, right? Like, just talk to them. Like, go see if you can sell that idea before then you go self-publish. I would not go self-publish or go publish after self-publishing.

How can we— what are you working on? How can we support you?

Yes, okay, so I have been in the business for 20 years. Again, I kind of fell into it by my amazing mentor that then It just is incredible that I've been on this journey with books. And I think I'm gonna be in here for, I think I'm here to be the book advocate. I think that's what I am. And this mastermind is like, do your book, please publish your book. So I help authors, first-timers, self-published, I help any authors, 10-year, you know, authors who've written 10 books. So I created a course for primarily first-time authors, primarily entrepreneurs that will walk them through what they should do to start. Um, and it's on my website, thenominategroup.com, but also theauthorsascent.com. I'll send this to you.

Or—

oh, there's my thing. There's, there's my website, guys. That's what's so funny. Like, you don't— like, in books, we're not— I'm not here to like promote myself, right? But this is the new world that Evan is— look at that.

Oh my gosh, there's a video on the homepage.

This was 5 years ago. I haven't looked at my website since, but here we are. I'm on a mastermind on YouTube and not— anyway, um, so yeah, so I've created a course to help people because I, I think for I'm really good with helping people with their book and their book content and making sure that it's exactly what they wanna write. And so I think, again, if it's a children's book or a coloring book or your memoir or your business book, you need help. So that's the one thing that I wanna, my purpose in life, my belief is to help you publish your legacy. So I wanna publish 1 million legacies by the time I leave this earth.

Thank you, guys.

Nina, thank you. That was great. That was great. To see our last mastermind talk with Jay Cron, who built Kajabi to a $2 billion valuation and will help you stop undervaluing yourself, check the video right there next to me. I think you'll love it. Continue to believe, and I'll see you there. That was the most unintentionally awkward intro, like, and the Kajabi guy.