How to STAND OUT by standing up! - Evan and @SKellyCEO - Live Q&A

This is so good.

All right, welcome everybody to another Hangout. Super excited to be here talking about a really important topic for me, which is how to stand out by standing up. Joined by my special guest, longtime friend of the channel, CEO of Sage, Stephen Kelly. Stephen, welcome back.

Great to be back, Evan Carmichael. It's really a privilege for me to be part of your channel, and you and me and a few other people out there changing the world.

I love it. Where are you now? Every time I talk to you, you're somewhere else. So what country are you in now?

I'll tell you, this week I've had an awesome week. I was down in Johannesburg, and maybe we'll talk about it in the next hour. I was down in a place called Soweto, which is a township, and it's basically kids living in shacks, and that was part of the Sage Foundation. And then I got back here to London, so we're sitting in front of London City here.

Oh, you're back home.

I was out in Canada as well, so next time we need to look each other up there.

I love it. I love it. Cool. Well, you know, I want to get into this chat, but just before, you know, I follow Sage and all the stuff you guys are up to. And this week my inbox exploded with all the positive news that you guys have been putting out. You know, like Sage leads the stock market back into the black and 35% increase in revenue and all this stuff. You guys are doing well.

Yeah, but it's all about doing, you know, that's the byproduct of everything you do for customers. You know that and I know that. And as entrepreneurs, and all the entrepreneurs out there on the channel. They know doing the right thing by colleagues, by customers, in the business produces outstanding results.

I love it. Uh, for you guys who are first time joining on a Blab, if you want to ask a question, you got to do /Q and then type your question, it'll show up on the side. Uh, Stephen, talking about standing up, so we have a story about Davos to share, right? I mean, every year The top guys around the world get invited to Davos to figure out how we're going to better the Earth. And for most people, it's like, this is an honor to be invited, and it'd be like a highlight of the career. And you're saying, I'm not going to Davos. I'm standing up. I'm not going to go. Tell everybody why.

Yeah, I think we believe really passionately you've got to have a really strong moral compass, and you've got to have a sense of purpose. And then I look at Davos and they're all, I'm sure, lovely people, well-meaning people, a lot of very rich people, but they created kind of a very exclusive event. And I just sat back here actually before Christmas, before the holiday season, and said, what is Davos more than just a talking shop? And then I just looked at the people they're inviting and it's all, you know, the politicians, the good and the great. And I thought, hang on a minute, Where's the guys who drive the economies around the world, around Canada, around North America, USA, the UK? And it's two-thirds of the jobs created today are created by small and medium businesses, entrepreneurs, business owners, working flat out 70 hours a week. And who's their voice in Davos? There is no voice there. So in reality, Davos is made up of all these lobby groups, big business, and the guys who really should be sitting at the table saying, these are the issues. I want you governments to change and listen to because they'll drive greater prosperity for the countries and give us much greater capability to support the vulnerable and things that really matter. It just wasn't missing. And then actually what we did in the new year, we did surveys of hundreds, well, actually thousands of our customers and shock horror, no surprise, only 4% of them thought that Davos was relevant. 4% of all our customers out there. And the shocking thing, and maybe you're not surprised by this, 60% of our customers didn't even know what Davos was. They didn't know it existed. World Economic Forum, Davos, what is it? So I kind of think all the private jets and all the exclusivity and the cocktail parties, our world, your world, my world, the people on this channel's world is hard work, hard graft, building something special. And we just made a plea and a cry for help for the guys at Davos to say, listen to the guys that really build the economies and put their issues on your agenda. And as part of that, I thought it would just be completely sad and totally inappropriate and incongruent if I was to attend there. And I said, no, I don't want to go. And I called it out. And I think some things in life, you've got to just consistently live your values, do the right thing. And kind of stick to what you believe is the right thing. Authenticity is everything, and Davos is just an example of that. And actually, I'm sorry, I'll just go on because then that was last week, Davos. This week, through the SAGE Foundation, you know, SAGE Foundation just blows me away, almost brings the tears to my eyes. Down in Soweto, where they signed the Freedom Charter in 1955 in South Africa, they had riots there in 1976, and there's just all these amazing kids that 60 of our volunteers in SAGE have built a library for these kids to go. And Nelson Mandela said, basically, the education is the only way out of poverty. And it was just a walking, talking, living example of how to make a difference in the community that really matters and gives communities great hope for the future. And I love kids anyway, but seeing these 4, 5-year-old little kids running up. And if you follow me on Twitter, @SKellyCEO, there's a little video of these kids singing to me and it just broke your heart, honestly. You know, I just, I come in, do loads of meetings, see loads of customers and go out to Soweto and this just, I had a big tear in my eye and I just felt, I felt hugely proud about the colleagues in Sage, in this one Joanne van der Waal and all the people who have actually done, made a difference down there, painting a library, kitting a library out and bringing kids aboard and giving them hope. And we met a granny, it's just amazing, this granny, 'cause the mom and dad are gone, and she had a 7-year-old who was coming to the after-school care and coming to the library. And she said, you know, she just dreamed of her grandson being a doctor one day. And, you know, sadly, you look around, it's a shantytown, there's no sanitation, no running water. Wow, if he makes it to be a doctor, and we just feel if we just change one life, That would be awesome. So, I kind of think, damas, talking, big talking, exclusive, kind of let's get real, let's get authentic, and let's really make a difference.

I love it. You know, I'm a little choked up, a little bit tear in my eye just listening to the story. I love it. I mean, everybody in the comments are cheering you on too. That's awesome. No, it's great. I'm like, lost for words, man. Just mad respect for what you're doing there. It's great. Most of this call now is dedicated to you guys, answering your questions. I mean, Stephen here has dedicated his time to hop on with you and help you build your businesses. So I know a bunch of questions already came in, and for those of you asking questions in the chat, just put a /Q in front of it and it'll pop out so we can highlight it. The first one came in from Randall. How do you make a statement that causes people to think without getting them angry with your position?

I think you have to start, and even if I was, actually when I started a Californian startup, we spent time right from the get-go thinking about, you know, how do we delight customers, how do we come out with something innovative and unique, but also what are the values we want to live by in the company. And the key message today actually, Evan, is that the soft stuff is hardcore, is the hard stuff. You know, it's easy to talk about values, it's all about easy to talk about integrity. Another crazy example, Enron, 2000s, their values was communication, respect, integrity, excellence. Wow.

Right.

It's about making— So I think the thing is, then when you take a stand, back to your question, it's got to be congruent and consistent with your values. So, you know, if we got so many great customers doing ethical products, We've got customers doing really good health through Gemma Price, um, superfood market, just creates clean, delicious food with no chemicals, and that's kind of core to the values of the product that she's created. So when, when you see issues out there that you think, wow, that breaks my heart, it's inconsistent, and it just, just is a breach of my values and deviates us from our moral compass, then you've got to put your hand up and call them out. And it's the final thing I'd say, Evan, is I would encourage everybody, and you're like this, that's why I love you, remember day minus one when you started your business, when you're sitting there putting your business plan together. Remember the anger, the passion, the dreams that you have, the thing how you wanted to change the world through your product or your service and how you knew you could be better than anyone else. And you've got to remember those and rekindle those dreams because that will keep you strong.

I love the passion, man. I love like you pound the table and the camera shakes because you got a laptop. It's great. I love it. You know, for me, for this one, I think intent trumps everything. I don't think you should go out and purposely try to offend people with your statement and your vision and what you're trying to do. But I also don't think like you should try to avoid making people angry. I feel like, uh, no matter what you do, somebody's gonna get angry, somebody's gonna get upset. And if nobody's upset with what you're doing, then you're playing life so safe that you're not standing for anything important. You know, I'm sure by Stephen not going to Davos, there are some people who are angry about that, but it wasn't his intent to just make those guys upset. He's trying to do something positive. And so I think the intent trumps, and not to worry so much about the people who are hating on you and saying that this is a bad message. So I don't worry about angering people because I know that the intent is always positive. Jay Ryerson? Yeah.

Yeah. You know, you and I, you probably couldn't meet more passive, nice people. We're very passionate. We never want to make people angry, but on some issues you have to take a stand. You have to have a really strong moral compass And you have to say, you know, there is a right path here. And that's where we're going to—

For me, what's your most important value? You know, for me, it's believe. It's on the wall. I believe in people. I believe in entrepreneurs. What's the most important core value to Stephen Kelly?

I guess sort of in my life, which is part of this, is define the cynics. And the core values for us is everything I start with is is follow your dreams, live your dreams. Don't let anybody tell you that you can't do stuff, because it comes back to believe, actually. If you believe, and when you build a company, start from the get-go and just say, what do we really stand for? What are our values and how do we live them? So even when we recruit the next 5 people, they're going to be people who share those values with us. And I think it's really important in terms of Sage, and I was pretty influential in this, but the team did the work, is our kind of 5 core values that we call out, we build into recruitment, performance management, the way we are. And if anybody misbehaves against these, we just call it out. Obviously, customers first, customers for life, that's absolutely critical. But then other things like velocity, innovation, and then these are pretty bold things, making a difference. You know, making a difference to colleagues, customers, all stakeholders, communities in which we operate. And also a really simple thing, do the right thing. Always do the right thing. Because I think with all these things like trust, you and I know when you're building businesses with your customers, trust actually takes months and years to build. But literally one little screw-up and you can dissipate that trust. I love it.

So would you see like, customers for life, and then under would be to get those customers for life, we need to innovate, we need to do the right thing, we need to support them. Is that like the main mantra is customers for life, and then how do we go and accomplish that? Or do you see them as separate pillars that you're all working on?

They're all 5 pillars, but they are totally integrated, and, and it comes down to then, so we have We've got 3 million businesses out there using our technology in the UK where I am now. 54% of all businesses pay their people, pay their employees using Sage. So what a responsibility, you know, if we screw up with payroll, they can't pay their mortgage. And that puts us in the spotlight of responsibility. And that's a great feeling. I really love that feeling. So the customer obsession. Is part of everything we do. And part of that, Evan, what does it mean? Any customer can tweet me, email me, anytime, night or day, we'll jump on that at the speed of light, we'll put a team of, you know, crack team, a hot team in there to resolve any problems. Because obviously you know as well, not every day is a perfect day when you've got 3 million customers. So you've got to say, when stuff goes wrong, we won't argue about it, we'll just fix it. We'll just fix it, we'll make it.

And I've witnessed that firsthand, and the actions that you've taken and your team, and, and how quickly things can get done, uh, by just sending a quick, quick message or quick tweet. I love it. Um, Damien's writing in, there's so many good causes out there, Stephen. What's your criteria for selecting what the Sage Foundation will support? Maybe quick, like high level, like what, why did you create Sage Foundation? Because I know that's core to your heart and then diving in on the question.

Yeah, I think, um, so Sage Foundation, the essence of what it is, just to explain to all the guys out there, um, Evan, is we've got this concept of 2 2 2. So, um, we will give to any charity, we'll donate 2 products to allow them to help them run their business and be more efficient. Uh, we've effectively got 2% of our free cash flows we generate go into the foundation to make grants which I'll come back to how we actually distribute those. And the final piece which really captures the heart of our colleagues is we do 2% paid by Sage volunteering. So 5 days a year for any of our colleagues around the world. So, you know, we've got 2,000 people down in South Africa, that's 10,000 person days every year. You know, 50 person years where our people are going into the community to either teach, to work in a hospice, to build schools, to build libraries. Now, within the grant part of the foundation, what we believe in, which is, I think, really cool, is it's back to our values. Our values all about is being a voice and a champion of entrepreneurs. So the best sort of projects we like to see coming into the foundation is where you either kind of have young kids who have gone off the rails and need to be retrained or reskilled, where they want to have an opportunity to grow a business, start a business, and we can work with charities around that. And we've done it with, uh, there's something in the UK called the Prince's Trust where for 250 kind of vulnerable young girls and boys there was a retraining program to get them to start their own businesses. And then we support that with mentoring and all those sort of things. So the sweet spot of Sage Foundation is around kind of entrepreneurs, disadvantaged people, actually whether young or old, to allow them to basically get out there and have an opportunity to follow their dreams and start businesses. That, that is Absolutely.

You know, I preached for a while that you want to solve the global economic issues, make more entrepreneurs, and let's support them and build them up and give them the mentorship and training ideas and motivation to make it happen. Uh, and I love that you're putting in the dollars and the man hours and the resources to make that vision happen globally. It's, it's awesome. I love it. I love it. Uh, okay.

Evan, just on that, is everybody says, well, isn't this kind of a big overhead, a big company sort of thing? You can start this when you got 3 people. And everybody says, you know, should we have values? Why don't we wait till we get to 100 people and then we'll spend time, we'll get consultants in to do it. Don't get consultants in. You know what your heart tells you. You know what your values are. You know why you have the passion to start your business. You know, I guess, the DNA of what you want your people to be like. And I prefer to do it, Evan, with you, get the team in, get a couple of beers in, create a beer or a couple of bottles of wine and say, what do we want to be famous for? What are the value— when people say about Sage People or whatever the business is, what do we want people to tell all their friends so they become raving fanatics of our business? And it's simple. And then you do that and it kind of gives you a really good foundation stone for growing your business. So it's not a big company thing. This is, I'd say this is a real, the essence of this is relevant to the smallest business, even with 1 or 2 people. And the proof point, the proof of the pudding in terms of saying the soft stuff is the hardcore. Interesting enough, the companies that have a mission and live that mission, the data says they're 9 times more likely to have high customer satisfaction. So, you know, this is a complete game changer, I think, and it should be part of the DNA of how you guys build your companies and achieve success and stick to it.

I love seeing it come from someone who has a big company and a lot of people on their team. I think a lot of people in big companies, they couldn't list off the 15 core values that their company has, and so they're not really living it. I think entrepreneurs, you know, we're smaller. We started this because of a reason. We didn't just go take a job. And so we connect with that message, and it's awesome to see people like you who are leading big companies also sharing that kind of same passion to make a difference and actually have a real impact, not just, you know, make returns. Although, hey, you're making great returns too, as my email is getting lit up. So it's great to see that there's that, that result there as well. Rise Online wrote in the comments, hashtag preach, this is the most positive, value-focused, integrity-filled blab I've ever been on. So You're making history here on Blab too.

Hey Evan, I'm going to ask you a question. So I kind of think everybody, the guys on this channel, they're all great guys, high integrity, doing the right thing, entrepreneurs working 70 hours a week. The question with these is how do we bring this to life? How do we walk the talk? How do we operationalize this? You've obviously been an entrepreneur. I've started businesses. What really practical advice would you give to the guys out there and the gals out there around how do you land this stuff, whether you're 3 people, 20 people, scaling to 50?

Yeah, I think this is a challenge for an entrepreneur because, you know, we're, especially the solo person, you're working 80 hours a week, you're doing everything, you're the janitor to the CEO. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs do feel the responsibility to give back and the heart to give back. And it's how do I manage this? 'cause I still need to survive myself and pay the bills. I think to take a step back, one, you have to make sure that you're actually still around. Like, you have to make sure you have a real business. You have to make sure that you can make money and pay the bills, 'cause it's great just to do volunteer work for charities, but then you're gonna be out of business. And if you can step up and build a bigger business, that gives you more time to be able to invest in companies and in charities and in, projects that you're passionate about, but you don't have to wait until you have 100 employees to do it, right? Simple things like taking a day out of the month and volunteering for a cause that you believe in, or joining a Blab or Hangout, or making a video on something that you feel passionate about, you can do right now. It doesn't have to take an insane amount of time. And I think for entrepreneurs, you want to tie the reason, like you said, to Starting day minus 1, right? The reason why you started this and make it part of your selling factor. That's why, you know, I call this core selling. It's something that my audience is familiar with, but most people sell the features of what they sell and then the benefits of what they sell. But the next step up is selling the core, right? By standing for something important and living that, not just, it's a story that you keep to yourself of why you're doing it, by making it public, sharing it on your website, using it to recruit team members and media and customers, then that gives you positive momentum and allows you to keep going and doing more of it. Where I think too many entrepreneurs have it, but they just keep it to themselves and they don't share it. And then when you look at their website and marketing materials, it just looks like another landscaping company or another software company or another whatever. But they have it, they're just not bringing it out because they're too afraid to stand up. And so stand up. Stand up for what you believe in and make it known. Tell it everywhere. Get people excited. I love it.

That's great.

Uh, Gail is writing in.

I love it too.

We have an anti-aging cream business that we tried several years ago to advertise. She's basically doing a whole bunch of stuff. She tried advertising, trade shows, uh, she's trying to do it in social media, but she's not getting any luck. Within the context of this now, values, how can she promote this business of hers to start getting some results in social?

Yeah, I think— I don't know the specifics of the product, but let me, let me take a stab. I think with an anti-aging cream, you know, obviously what it would offer is what's the benefit? And it's all about well-being. It's all about, I guess, self-confidence and self-esteem. You know, Evan, I look at you and I'm an old guy. You're a young guy. You got it all ahead of you. So if this product, like me, all the guys and gals around the world said, actually, it looks after my well-being, it looks after my skin, it reduces eczema, allergies, all those sort of things, then yeah, I like that. And I think the way to do it is with all these things, kind of start small, build a community of fans, and then kind of go— and through social, you can go Awesome. And with products like anti-aging creams, the website is your shop window on the world. But how you do it, I think, is it's all about social referrals. And these things do go by recommendation. And things like aging creams, beauty products, it's a fantastic market where recommendations and referrals create viral success. And so start small, maybe go out to a community of friends in your village, get them to test drive the product, come up with a few references, do a few video clips of how it's made a difference to their life, put it online, open up a kind of web store, and I think you can build up a tremendous audience. Give it a go.

Yeah, I think in terms of social, 'cause you said you was trying to get it on Twitter and it's not having luck, I think if we were to look at your Twitter feed, it would probably just super promotional and spammy, right? There's no value there, there's no story, there's no core, you know, stand up for something around, aging, that's important to you. I think, how do you sell in social? Most people do the wrong thing, they're just broadcasting all the time, pushing out coupon codes or whatever, and nobody pays any attention. Where, how you should do it is, look at this, this is an example right now. We are social selling right now through our values, even though I'm not talking about any products, Stephen's not coming on and saying, hey, you guys need to go buy Sage software, it's the best thing for your business. And wait, there's more. If you do it right now on this Hangout, you're going to get 10% off your first month, right? You know, if he were doing that, you guys would all take off, right? And I would probably hang up too. He's coming on and giving value, right? He's talking about what he's doing with the library in Davos and trying to help you. Like, he's got 15,000 employees to worry about, and he's on here chatting with you, trying to help you grow your business because he cares, because this is something that's meaningful to him, right? Right? And something that's meaningful to me too. Why am I spending my time? Because I want to help you guys out too. And so if you think about it though, the next time that you need accounting software, right? You're all entrepreneurs or you're going to start your business. When you need accounting software, who's the first company that you're going to go to, right? It's Sage's business to lose because of all the value that Stephen has given you to help your business. And that's how it works. And you see the results as companies are exploding, leading the stock market back to the black. I think that's how you do it. You want to sell on social, that's the key, right? Start sharing your passion, start providing value, start being the expert. Don't just talk about your anti-aging cream because that's a commodity that I can buy in a lot of places. Make me have a reason to want to buy from you because I know you, like you, trust you, and you're the first person I'm going to go to. Uh, you have to then lose my business because I love you so much with everything that you're putting out. That's how you win social and that's how you make sales too, not just spamming out links. I got fired up. Your story, your emotional story. You almost made me cry on my own show, Stephen. You know, whoo!

One day we'll go out to South Africa. Well, We could go to loads of these projects around the world, you know, where there's flood kind of victims up the north of England, uh, food banks out in the USA. I'll do it. I'll take one of these trips and we'll do it together.

Uh, okay, next one. Julie: I think it's a process in knowing who we are and offering something that resonates from an inner place and born of a deeper meaning. My question is about the process. Do we muddle around and keep it at one idea or try out a few "how do we keep track so we can measure what is working or not? Do you have any tips or tools?" From Julie.

Julie, I think it's a great question. I think, and I do think you're right, and it comes back to what Evan said. I believe great companies are companies with a heart. So when you start on day minus 1, you know, what is it you really believe in? What is your passion? What sets kind of true north on your moral compass? And that's something that will stay with that through your business career. And then what's your big idea? What's the execution plan? And then what I'd say in terms of how you execute the business, I always say this too, I've been in a lot of startup business and angel investor. I'd say if you've got a clear proposition, clear value proposition, clear strategy, you know, just take the first step. Great words of Martin Luther King on, you know, if you're trying to climb a giant staircase, just take the first step, then take the second step, then take the third. And always think about, you know, one of our core values is velocity. I tell guys to do the right thing, you know, customer first, but guaranteed we'll make loads of mistakes. So fail fast, learn from those failings, try something different, do loads of course correction. So I think in your head you need to kind of separate the moral compass, the sense of purpose, you know, the essence of why you're there, your DNA, and then the strategy where you operationalize it into execution plans. You need to be really agile, be prepared to change it, course correct it, see what works, do more of that.

I love it. You know, I have a problem with this question in that I think just this is something from the heart and you're trying to rationalize it with your head. You're trying to make it logical. You know, you're trying to measure it, and it's like, how do you measure love, right? Like, how do you measure doing the right thing, right? When does that pay off, if ever, right? Sometimes you do the right thing and it costs you, but it's still the right thing to do. It's still something that you should actually go out and do. And so I think just, I don't know, the way the question is phrased just doesn't sit well with me. You know, Stephen says, I'm not gonna go to Davos 'cause it's not the right thing to do for what I believe in. You know, maybe that's not the logical thing to do, right? Like maybe he could go there and meet a lot of people and it creates connections for the business. And so maybe it's a negative ROI, but it feels right, right? And so how do you quantify that or measure it or are there tools for it? I don't know that I have an answer for you apart from this is a matter of the heart. And heart always comes first to the big decisions, and then the head helps you make the little ones.

Um, yeah, Evan, on that, a couple of things. I think, um, I think you're really right. Building on what you said about Davos, um, I called it out because I want the issues for entrepreneurs to be represented. Now, I— back to kind of the first question— I don't think it's good for us just to be negative, you know, that serves no purpose. You've got to present an alternative that's really positive. So we're actually now looking at how do we get the entrepreneurs' agenda into that room and all the cocktail bars in Switzerland, in Davos. You know, is there a role for a Davos for the great entrepreneurs in the world? So we're thinking about what do we need to do to fill that vacuum or get the guys who kind of are responsible for Davos, the World Economic Forum, to really care about the guys, the true heroes of the economy. The other thing I think is, we'd probably say it's easy, Julie, back to your question, to build great values when companies are doing well and you're growing and all that sort of stuff. But the real test comes when you hit the rocks and something doesn't go well, you don't make your numbers or you don't grow or you get a problem with a product that you shipped. And I think that's really where you have to come back to your core. I'll give you a direct example. I was part of a startup company back in California in '97, I ended up CEO there. Sadly, when we hit the rafters in the tech dot-bomb crash in 2000, 2001, we had to lay off some of our folks, friends. I had these guys in my backyard in a summer party with their kids and their husbands and wives, girlfriends, boyfriends. But it was really important. We sat down and I told the executives in an executive team. Meeting with honestly deep sorrow that we're going to have to lay some of our colleagues off. And I said, I would lack integrity if we're not sharing some of that pain. So we in that meeting decided that the executives would take a 20% haircut on their salaries and compensation. So I came out of that meeting with a commitment from all my executives, including myself, we'll take the 20% haircut, we'll reduce our salary. And, you know, as a public company by that time, it's all announceable and filings and stuff. But the congruence of what we were doing, because we were sharing the pain with our colleagues, it made actually the process much higher integrity for us and kept us true to our values.

Great example and speaks to the man that you are. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I love it. We have a call-in from, from Marisha. One of the cool things about Blab is you can have people call in. Now let's see what she has to say. Marisha was the first person to confirm that she was going to join us. Oh, you're sideways. You're—

Oh, am I sideways?

You're sideways.

Is this better?

There you go.

Okay.

Marisha was the first person to join and say she was gonna watch this show, so—

Because when I see, anytime I see that Evan and Stephen are going to collab, I'm gonna be the first one on it.

I love it. So, so—

Wow.

Quick, quick intro and then what question do you have for us?

Okay, well, I'm Marisha, also Rishi from Rishi Cup TV, I guess. I'm gonna make sure that this phone is held right. Yeah, I love this topic, and I guess my question might be slightly tied to Julie's. I'm not sure if I really fully got what she was asking, but my question is specifically around navigating— not so much when your values change, because— are you still there, Evan? I'm not seeing you. Okay.

Marie, hopefully Evan's gone. He's probably gone for a coffee, but he will be back.

Okay. All right.

We love this technology so much. So keep going.

So basically, you know, ideally when you start your business, you're going to have a clear set of your core values. And so I'm wondering, though, if you've ever navigated, not necessarily when your values change, but when they refine and when they focus. And what I'm thinking about specifically as an example is like, you know, the Oprah Winfrey Show. It started out doing a lot of kind of shock TV and more controversial tabloid topics. And then at some point right in the process, she had a value that just refined. And she's like, I'm not going to do any more shock TV. I want to only focus on content that will bring light into people's lives. But there's a transition in that process that I am wondering if you can speak to when, you know, when you are personally experiencing that maybe change in conviction, how do you transition in a way that not only just honors that change in yourself, but like honors your customers, honors your team? And, um, that's— yeah, that's pretty much my question.

So, yeah, okay, I will take a stab at that, and Evan's going to come back online and he'll give you a killer answer. So that's why you got to stay on. So I kind of think generally 99% of business— Evan, we had a great question from me. She basically said How is it when you got core values that things have to kind of modify and shift and do course corrects around the values? And she gave the example of Oprah Winfrey, who started off kind of shock and horror and then kind of went much more sympathetic around issues that matter to her and changed, essentially, the whole brand of what she represents. Or modified it, didn't change it. Dramatically. I think what I'd say, Marisa, is fundamentally number one is typically I'd say most businesses I look at out there have the same core values when they start as when they're 10 years old, 15 years old, 20 years old. And the core values around, you know, we call out integrity, customers first, they're never going to change. What the subtle nuance is of what problem you're solving for customers or why you're knocking the ball out of the park for the customers or product innovation, That's going to change all the time. And we're, you know, I'm just totally crazy. I challenge myself, the team. One of our values is around sort of revolutionizing the business for our customers. So we should never sit still. We should never be happy with the status quo. But the core values never change. And I think it's interesting. I just interviewed someone for a senior role at Sage. And the other company he was interviewed for, I can't tell you the name, it's probably unfair, but it was a tobacco company. And I just said, well, how come you kind of interviewed with us where we're really passionate about our values and our integrity, and then you're interviewing with a tobacco company? You know, why? You know, people want to go and kill themselves, that's their choice, and I respect that. However, where you're going to spend two-thirds— you know, when you go to work, when you're an entrepreneur, you're spending two-thirds of your conscious life hopefully with people you love, colleagues you respect, customers that you're going to make raving fans, and you're going to make a difference to the world. And I think, I do think therefore, you know, it's a call out. I think the millennials, guys like you, are much more conscious of that moral compass. And I think sadly in the past people have compromised their moral compass and ended up working in companies who had no heart. So I don't— from a company point of view, from an entrepreneur's point of view, I'd really advise you to establish things that will last the test of time in terms of values. And then build them out, you know, have branding around them, have recruitment. When you do, you know, sit down and have reviews, you call them out. They become part of the way you are. And they never change. And then as the market changes, the opportunity changes, as you evolve and you kind of grow up, then you can take advantage of wherever you sit in that. But the core values always probably stay.

Yeah, yeah. I say that— Evan, what do you want to add? I got kicked.

I don't know what happened.

I got myself kicked out of the call. You know, okay. So before I answer that, Steve, I'm curious, what did the guys say about the tobacco? You know, so you'd say, here, we're living our values, we're full of We're doing something meaningful and then there's tobacco. What was his response and what happened with this guy?

Well, he said he was only— basically, he'd been with a company where he was 15 years and he'd had no interview practice, so he was just using it as interview. And that's probably the best answer he could have given. If you're interested in working for that company, then we should start the interview now. Because we're just misaligned. And it's not that you're a bad guy or anything. I'm not going to be high and mighty. I'm not going to be some kind of moralist. We're just different. And there's probably loads of companies you can go for, but this is a company pursuing a noble cause, supporting entrepreneurs, and that's what we believe in. And we're very clear about that. And you take this as well.

I love it. It's an interesting story. I like all the little Stephen Kelly anecdotes and stories. It's good. This is my favorite episode so far. To answer that question about Oprah, you know, as you see Oprah evolve, I feel like she just became more and more self-confident and more and more trusting in who she was and not trying to be what other people wanted her to be, right? So you can do this shock and awe campaign and, you know, boyfriend stabs girlfriend on air or whatever, and it gets you some ratings, but I feel like that wasn't truly her. If you watch Oprah, she's all about heart, right? Like, Oprah really cares about people genuinely. Like, you feel it, it radiates. But her earlier stuff, it's very formal, almost corporate, you know? It's like that true Oprah is not coming out. And I think, I mean, we have the luxury of being able to watch her over such a long period of time. See her progression to becoming much more comfortable being herself and sharing that. And I think as she shared more, that's what really got like the hardcore audience, and that grew so big for her, right? That's why her influence became so powerful, is because she, uh, was just honest and true to herself and then shared that with the world. Uh, whereas, you know, the people who followed her that, that shock style, and then she went off and did something else. Those guys never built that following, right? You just seen coming on the scene like the latest jab, the latest stabbing, the latest whatever, and then they're off to see the next show where they don't develop that intense relationship. And so I think for you and for the people watching, the way they get there faster is just have the confidence to be who you are sooner and express that. And I know it's hard because people judge you and you're gonna get hater comments, and I know you do stuff on YouTube and And there's always going to be people who hate on what you're doing. And that can sting in a bad way to the point where you don't want to do anything anymore. But I think if you have the skills and you have the ability to make a positive impact on the world, then you have the responsibility to do it. And I know you do. You have great talents. I've seen some of your videos. And we've been connected for a while. You've joined in on all of the Hangouts and everything. Just being more genuine, more you, like raw, your raw self, and trust that people will like that and not worry about what other people are saying. That's— if you watch Oprah, in my opinion, that's the evolution of Oprah, and that's how she built up her audience. So you can do it too. Your raw self.

Yeah, we— a final thing on Oprah. We— I think with service, we, we absolutely need— but the thing about authenticity is also vulnerability. And I think Oprah has shown herself— and I think great leaders just are very vulnerable at points in time, uh, and that means, um, people gravitate to them. And her core mission and values, as Evan says, I think have been consistent right from the get-go, right through to now.

Awesome, thank you guys.

Cool, thanks for calling in.

Okay.

Okay, Vikas is writing in, how can I promote quality health and home care products and increase the awareness for my customers, sorry, my customer base? I guess still in context of this values theme that we're on, "how do you promote quality healthcare, home care products and increase your customer base awareness?" I think, yeah, back to your point, it's almost like the products, I think you've got to look for what issue you're trying to solve.

And I think things like healthcare products, home care products, there's obviously a massive market, whether it's in Canada, USA, or globally. But it really is about what does it give the people who are going to use those products. How does it make their lives better? How does it make their health better? And appealing to that. And then, I don't know, if again, back to Evan's point, if you could find, say, some of your buddies who's a bit of a kind of leader or a doctor or someone who's an industry trusted advisor to start talking about the issues, and then you create the issues and you come in and your product's one of the solutions to around that. So I think it's more about— and I just look at some of our customers and what Gemma has done with kind of the massive health food business, business of like $5 million turnover from nothing a few years ago, sells across 33 countries. She hasn't kind of focused just on product sales. She's really focused on beautiful products, delicious products, free of chemicals. And there's a lot of people like all of us probably on this on this blab where actually, yeah, we'd buy that because it's helping us to eat well, be healthy, and have a more kind of holistic view of ourselves.

Yeah, I would say, you know, your competitive advantage is your story, your values. Why are you doing this? In most markets, you have— it's a commodity, right? Like healthcare and home care products, there's tons of it. So there might be some product differentiation, but the way to stand out is your story, right? Make me feel something. That's, as an entrepreneur, it's riskier to go with you because you're the, you're the newer kid on the block. Why would I go with an entrepreneur when I can buy from a safe established company? It's because of the story, because of the values that you have. Uh, as an example, some guy who called in, uh, had a lawn care service, right? So he mowed lawns and he took care of your flowers and all that stuff, and I said, well, you know, why should I? That's a hard business, right? Like, I could go to my next-door neighbor who's got a high school kid and say, hey, here's $15, mow the lawn, right? So how are you going to compete when you're charging 3 times that much? And that was his challenge. And I said, well, why do you— why did you start this business? It's because when I was young, I spent hours every week outdoor with my mom, and we, you know, mowed the lawn together, and we did all the potting the flowers and we did all the landscaping together and I started this business because it, you know, reminds me of her, it's paying tribute to her and I treat everybody's lawn like it's my mother's lawn. And right there, like, you feel the passion in his voice and, you know, it's not just a marketing thing. I would pay that guy 2 or 3 times as much than the high school kid down the street because I feel like he cares more than the other person, and that he's gonna do a good job on my lawn, right? And so that's what you need to do for your business too, right? Why do you care so much about home and healthcare products? Why is it important? Why are you starting this thing? You know, if you can tap into that, and for all entrepreneurs watching, right, you tap into that story and you share it, make me feel something on an emotional level, like Stephen made me almost cry at the start of this episode, right? You wanna do that, just genuinely telling your story, and that's gonna attract the right customers to you. Okay.

That's great. Evan, I tell you what, I just visualized for a minute sitting in there, looking out of the yard and seeing these kind of beautiful lines and stripes on the lawn, and you know that he did your lawn as well as he does everybody else's.

Yeah, but if you don't give me a reason to, to see how you're different, then I'm just going to compete on price. I'm going to go with the cheaper guy because I see it as a commodity. So your job as an entrepreneur is to show me why it's not a commodity, and the caring and the values is a huge part of that.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's part of the brand, right? You know, a whole different topic, maybe for a different blab, but it's kind of how do you build that brand, uh, and you're right, emotion, trust, the story, key parts of Adithya, Adithya, I hope I pronounced that okay.

Price, talk about pricing strategy. What is the pricing strategy for a new product? How can you convince the clients that your price is right?

I think, well, a similar sort of question actually. You've got to have differentiating. You've got to have, at the end of the day, I think you have to believe in your product. You have to believe in your mission. And that's kind of what this blabs at. We should probably do another one around some of these topics around brand, pricing. But without a doubt, again, pricing is part of execution. And obviously it's part of your pricing strategy. So with that sort of thing, test drive it. You know, test drive it. Even start talking to friends. What price would people feel comfortable with? Test it. Put it on the web. If you're not getting it right, you'll know how to change it. But I think a lot of businesses when they start worry too much about price and it's not the right thing to worry about. The right thing to worry about is why would someone have a compelling need for this product or service? Why could I be very different from anyone else? And then honestly, price—

I love it. That's, uh, that's good. It's a good punch to the stomach kind of realization moment. Uh, I would add that I think a lot of entrepreneurs underprice themselves. Uh, a lot of entrepreneurs just don't believe that they're worth more. And it's stepping up to realize that, hey, I'm adding value and starting to go after more ideal clients 'cause you get stuck in these like low-paying clients and low budgets and that starts to affect your self-worth to feel like this is all you can do where you could charge more. It's just about offering more value to the right clients. And so it's common. And when you start off a business, you're taking whoever, you're trying to figure it out, As you grow, you want to think about how can I provide more value to better clients so you can increase your prices and, you know, chase your dreams, make the money that you want to make.

Interesting, interesting thing, Evan. Actually, on some of the sort of conferences we run for entrepreneurs, we're thinking of should we actually waive all the registration fees and put that money into the Sage Foundation? So you argue, you know, is our conference more expensive than someone else's conference? Who cares? We want to build the best conference with the best value for entrepreneurs. And then to really reinforce that point, actually, if we said all registration fees go to the Sage Foundation and go to charity, it just changes the game again. And I think you're right, it breaks my heart when I see entrepreneurs pricing products too low. Because there's— we all do it— there's that doubt moment about, you know, if I price it too high, they won't come. But if you've got the right product with the right idea and you've established the need well, then—

and Sage Summit is a pretty awesome event. I had the luxury to go last year, and this year Chicago, right? I'm excited. Okay, so Next question was talking about raising startup capital. I know, I know we talked about this last time when our session was about raising capital. How do values play into raising capital? So I know you've been an angel investor and maybe in your startups that you've done as well. How does, how does values play into raising money for a company?

I think it's fundamental, you know, and I— well, a few things. Early stage, the best, and typically 70% of our customers have actually self-funded their businesses from the get-go. We had a Hangout on this, and you're absolutely right. It's about you don't want to raise too much. You don't want to give away the equity. Actually, you really want to build something sustainable. A good way to start that is probably friends and family, angel investors. They will be totally, totally ready absolutely to listen to what are the values of the business. Because again, companies with great values, as I said, tend to have 9 times better customer service. You know, I said at the beginning, the soft stuff is hardcore. There's no surprise some of the best companies in the world and some of the best entrepreneurs in the world have really strong values. And I think, you know, there's a direct correlation between the values and success. So if I'm an angel investor, I want to see, yeah, I want to see the business plan, I want to see the market demand, I want to see a strategy, I want to see probably something— it doesn't have to be science, it doesn't have to be War and Peace, but it's just like a 3-year sort of projection on business plan about what we can do with loads of kind of mitigation if the execution doesn't go right, because it sometimes takes longer to execute these things. But part of that is the values and the values of the executive the founder and what they want to do. And how, you know, I'm really back to Evan. If someone comes to me with a proposition that kind of makes sense and then they actually touch my heart and say, and by the way, we're going to change the world or we're going to do something really spectacular, you've got all ears. And then next phase, if you want to go into the world of VCs, venture capitalists, you know, I'll be honest, these guys can set you spinning. And we could do another whole blab about how to make money through VCs. But I'd say do it on your terms. Don't do all these crazy restrictive covenants, all that. Give them basically— do something that would fit 2 or 3, run a little beauty parade, never just go with one, and you will self-select. And a lot of that's the chemistry of the individuals. And some VCs are kind of hands-off, some VCs are really in your face. So you'll find very quickly, because it's all about the chemistry and what will work for your business and allow you to be successful. So what I'd say is, again, values, I think, absolutely from the start of your business right through different phases of funding should be something that is front and center and part of your business that you're proud of, that you haven't kind of got in the backroom drawer, but you actually bring out there front and center. And obviously Part of that will always be around customers and colleagues and how you treat customers.

I love it. I mean, the only thing I would add to that is, is you need to be selective as an entrepreneur too, as to which angel investor you bring on. Like, you need to test their values, not just worry about them testing yours. You don't want just money. You want somebody who can help you, but also who believes in the same thing that you believe in. You know, if your investor's into a lot of underhanded stuff that you don't agree with, that's not going to be a great long-term relationship. And so it can suck to have to walk away from a deal because you need the money to grow, but you don't want to get married to the wrong person. It's just, it's just not worth it. So, so, uh, have good standards for yourself too, and not just accept any, any investor, any employee, any partner, any supplier because you're in a crunch. You want to, uh, make sure you get the right person on board. And we did, yeah.

Hey Evan, when we were in the startup in California again, we went to a customer actually in the retail sector. Oh man, this customer, brutal. And you know, the classic games of the business people are not allowed to talk to the procurement people. You've got to deal with the procurement people. Business people can't get, even if the business people want your products, And these procurement guys, they didn't care. They had no soul, no heart. And we stepped away, said, guys, if that's the way you want to do business, then there's probably lots of other people out there who want to work under your terms. But that's not the way we want to do it. And you've got to step away from this. And in the long term, you know, you'll be better off. At the time, it hurts. And, you know, monthly revenues for that period, they hurt because we forecast a deal and it didn't happen, didn't materialize. But we stepped back and said, actually, Nope, if that's the way this customer— and then ironically, 6 months later, they tried it through another supplier. The project crashed and burned. The business— we want you guys back in and we'll do it on your terms and we'll be part of the process.

I love it. I love it. Cool. Well, I know we're bumping up against the clock. You've received almost 4,000 high fives for everything that you've talked about. The fist bump there, there you go, you just crossed 4,000. Yeah, there you go, there you go, bump it back. What we wanna do, so this is a series we're gonna continue, this is gonna be uploaded to the YouTube channel too, we'd love to know what topics you want us to cover next in future editions, so you can leave a comment below and we'll collect those and figure out what we're gonna do for the next session. I know there's still a lot of questions that we weren't able to get to, so I apologize for that, but time does fly. Steven, if people want to reach out to you or learn more about the projects you're working on, I know you mentioned the foundation. What's the best way to be able to connect with you and learn about what you're up to?

Come through. Anyway, anybody who wants to reach out to us, come through. Tweet, email, and stuff like that. And also, in terms of the website, learn about us. Also, stay tuned to this because I think Evan Carmichael I love being part of this because we're talking about stuff that the audience out there cares about. And in a little way, if we can make businesses across Canada, USA, and Europe, and all over the world more successful, and learn from some of our mistakes— because we got lots of things wrong, loads of things wrong. We got a lot of stuff wrong. But when we put that into context, if the guys out there can learn from us and our mistakes and what works well, then, you know, it's just fantastic to participate in this. And I thank you, Evan Carmichael.

Awesome. Thank you guys for watching, and we'll see you soon. Have a great day.

Thanks, guys. Have a great day.