Disconnected From Your Body? How It Affects Desire and Pleasure

What if you're not disconnected from your desire, you're disconnected from your body? We spend so much of our lives thinking about how we look, how we should behave, and what other people expect from us that we can forget what it actually feels like to be inside ourselves. My guest today believes movement can change that. Chloe de Souza has spent more than 2 decades exploring how dance Can unlock emotion, self-trust, intimacy, and our relationship with desire. And this conversation goes somewhere I was not expecting. From the nervous system and suppressed emotion to women's anger, aging, pleasure, and why becoming older may actually mean becoming more connected to who you are. This is Chloé de Souza. Welcome to The Sex Mystic. Welcome, Chloe.

Thank you, Fleur. It was funny because a moment ago when you were like, I'm sitting with, and I thought, oh, this is the first time we've actually sat down together because normally we're dancing.

Tell us a little bit about how everything started for you in this wisdom of the body.

Oh, beautiful. Yeah, I mean, my journey— I was actually— my journey with the body started a long time ago, um, and I had quite a difficult childhood, so there was quite a lot of, um, leaving my body throughout my childhood. Um, and then I found free parties, which is free— the free party scene happened in the UK, um, where we would take sound systems into fields, um, on top of hillsides and dance all night. And for me, what I discovered, if I'm sure your listeners are familiar with fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So my body on dance floor started to defrost my freeze. There were parts of my body that started to wake up. There's also a phrase called collective effervescence, which is very healing for human beings. So when— this is an ancient primal thing, really— when bodies on dance floor move in the same beat and rhythm and bodies start to syncopate together, there's an experience of collective effervescence, which is very healing, because you feel at one with each other, and you feel at one with something bigger than you. And so all the things that need healing in your body or your heart start to soften and defrost and find their way towards peace, I would say. So, there was this sort of natural yearning and a natural yes to that party scene that then led me to 5 Rhythms dance floors, dancing in New York, dancing in California, training as a dance movement psychotherapist, because I realized the body had a key. The body wanted to tell me what it felt. The body wanted to defrost what it was holding, like, naturally. And I discovered also that what I had been told was The difficult emotions weren't so difficult when I was dancing. So, and we've seen this together in class, haven't we? So when, when I was sad and my body expressed the sadness just as it was in my body in that moment, there's an ecstasy, there's a bliss to the body telling it exactly how it is. So you start to fast-track through a lot of digestion because it just feels so good. for the body to tell the truth. Um, and I'm, I'm hooked. Like, that's my holding place. That's, that's what I, that's what I love to do for the spaces I hold, and that's what I love to do for myself. It's like that sweet spot of truth-telling is my home.

Yes, yes. Like, you really curate, like, those journeys, you know, in the way that I I find myself personally going through a range, a range of emotion, like it's very wide. And what I have noticed time and time again is like the different layers, how at times it would, I mean, often it would start with maybe some sadness and grief and something is kind of like coming to the forefront to be felt. And once I go through that, there is like a lineup, a lineup of emotion that's come after that. And it's so, yes, ecstatic, blissful. There is something I want to ask you. What does it mean to you bringing the Eros, the Sensual erotic part and really opening to that.

Yeah, because, because of the type of dance spaces that I hold, um, there's no set steps, so you're literally following your body. So when I said you, you can't really dance without discovering your sexuality, I, I really mean it, because if you're free-forming, not a ballet step, not a tango— it's very hot actually, but Like, when you're literally just discovering what your body wants more and more of, you will hit Eros in the end. You will hit your sexuality in the end, if you want to, when you're ready. And that, you know, of course, people have trauma around this, but when you're ready, the body will start to show you it. But also, for me, Eros is so broad. Eros is life force. Eros is the essence of everything. Eros is the desire and drive that brought us here onto the planet. Eros is why we make love with each other. It's, it's very broad. So, you know, it's very hard to move your hips for a long period of time without, without getting turned on.

Yeah.

Before we hopped on the call today, Fleur was talking about relation to self and then relation to others. And, and we can disclude that part of our sexuality, but if you just dance with yourself and you're moving your hips There's nothing really between you and the universe, so you get turned on. It's not to do with whether or not you're hitting on a beautiful person that you find really amazing on the dance floor. It's to do with, like, my hips are moving, that releases turn-on, and it's nothing to do with anyone else but myself. As women owning that, it's us with us, or it's us with Eros, or it's us with the dance floor. with something bigger than ourselves. And that's a good place to start from. It's nothing to do with the male gaze. It's nothing to do with someone finding you attractive. It's something inside of you says, yes, yes, and more.

There is so much medicine I found to come back to myself and just letting go of whatever my head wants to, to, to make.

Dance loves you from the inside. And with all the social media and the, the rise in all the platforms that we have, people are more and more conscious of what they look like from the outside, and, and it turns you inside out. You, you're then lost from the connection with yourself. So what I mean by dance loves you from the inside is we're going inside to find out how we feel, and then we're loving ourselves enough to express it. And then the crazy thing is, is that's the most attractive thing in the world so often. So whenever I'm reading a room, because of course I'm into body language, like the most alive person in the room is the most honest body in the room, no matter what it's expressing. I'm captivated. Like honest anger, it's kind of sexy as well, you know. Honest joy or fear or, or tears, it, it's so raw, it's so unfiltered. That, um, it's often what a man or a woman might be after in bed, is, is the uncensored is the biggest turn-on. The performative sexuality doesn't have enough depth to ride our capacity sexually, which is, particularly for women, many, many waves of orgasm. It's very, it's very hard to perform sexually and ride the waves. that they are multi-orgasmic. I've never tried, actually, uh, to be performative in that way and multi-orgasmic. But I think a first step would be to trust, to trust that your body does know what it feels, to trust that your body does know what to do. And for example, in my dance class, the reason why I say you can turn your camera off when we're on Zoom is, is to make sure it's just you with you. And that way you will, you will head towards some honesty. And there's a great parallel, Fleur, because people can avoid sexual intimacy because it brings up emotion. You're gonna hit the emotion probably first before you hit your sexual charge. And it's the same with dance, like you're gonna feel something, just like you said, oh, I often start feeling a bit sad and then I move through a whole range. And it's similar when it's a very honest sex, that you will also hit, hit some of the sadness before you get to the, the purer ecstasy.

Yeah.

So it's about trusting that what you find inside is okay, that you do have the capacity to hold it, that the emotions you thought were dangerous will move through so fluidly you'll be somewhere else in no time if you just trust yourself.

Yeah, it's so beautiful because, you know, like, I truly believe that dance is one of the most potent feminine tools you can practice, right?

Yes.

Like, I see in my life there is a lot of exercising my masculine side in life because, like, of society and the way we live in this modern time. But dance is kind of breaking all this bullshit. And I found myself time and time again thinking about how a woman dancing for herself, right? Like how it's magnetic, it's Hypnotic.

I really want to point, like, at this point then is just talk about the animal in all of us, um, which is very erotic actually, very in touch with Eros. Um, so like when I walk in a room, if I was watching like dance, somebody try to please somebody else dancing, um, it, it actually, it feels hard. It feels really hard that a person would do that in order to To, to be attractive or something. And so the animal in us knows what's going on the whole time, and, and dancing brings on that quality in you. You develop that quality for truth-telling very quickly if you dance a lot. So it's like, ah, and that could be also off dance floors. You walk in a room and someone's sad and you feel it, and they, they might be smiling, but everyone knows they're sad. It's like the animal in us is attuned to, like, what's really going on, because that keeps us safe. It's the same way you sit down next to somebody on the tube, the subway, and, like, they're angry, and then they could just be sitting reading a book— well, people don't read books these days, but, you know— and, like, you know it and you want to move away. And so I love that dance floors show us all this content that you can come towards someone And you also have to work out boundaries. How close do they want me? Am I invading their space? Do they want more of me? Do they want to get really close, like press right up against me? Or do they want space? Do they want witnessing? Do they want me to step back but take them in so that they get to feel seen in whatever it is that they're expressing and I'm not going to interrupt them? That might be something they never had in their family home. That I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna watch them while they move and tell me their story through movement. So there's so many movement conversations that take place, and, and the non-verbal part of it brings all these moments of honesty between us. And, and so much repair can be— can take place. To, to have somebody respect your boundaries on a dance floor could be— An immense thing if in your backstory there was a boundary rupture, and, and, and a complete stranger might gift you that. You gift it to yourself through just a dance floor. You know, they didn't come near me, they just, they just saw me, they offered me love. They didn't tell me to stop crying. You know, they weren't scared of my fire. I was sexy and I wasn't touched. All the things.

Yeah, like that sounds— there is a sense of liberation in what you do.

Yeah.

And definitely like a raw, no BS side of things that like, it's so, it feels so good. Like, I, you know, like the way we live Our life, you know, it, it, I mean, you know, we do what we can, right? But like, it's, it's highly disconnected. It's mostly intellectual. Um, we project ourselves in our future, in our past. We're not really fully connected to the moment. And for me, like, dance is those moments of grace, like, You know, like prayer even. So I'm kind of curious, like in your practice leading group into ecstatic experience, but there is also, I guess, like an intimate work you're doing with people. And I'm kind of like curious how it unraveled into your coaching work.

Yeah, I think for me, looking at what First of all, spending years and years, which makes me an experienced practitioner, finding out what my own body stored and how it expressed itself. And, and then it became very natural to, to train to hold dance spaces and watch other people's body wisdom talk to them, talk to them essentially, the powers with them. Um, so when I discovered like intimacy coaching, um, first of all My sexuality's on because I've danced so much. That was my, my route in. I was also very connected as a child. But, um, it became really obvious to me that, that the bodies were holding stories. So in, in terms of intimacy and the coaching work that I do, um, there's the same quality. Like, I am— people say, oh, I could— I feel like I can say anything to you. You really can. And, and so that range you're talking about, like, I'm not asking people to censor themselves. And, and that feels quite radical, that, that— and the body knows that it's welcome. The heart knows that it's welcome, um, with the whole range. And so, so with, with my intimacy coaching, it's a very similar story. It's, it's, it's what, what is it that you're experiencing What is it that you'd like to experience? And then there'll be a bit in between, which is the thing that's in the way.

Hmm.

And, and it's very easy for me with it, with another person, to, to find out where that is in their body, what it is that, that, that body needs in order to express itself, what, what the story is attached to that. And, and the body is— once again, if you give the body the right conditions and you say, speak to me, It starts to talk and suddenly, oh, I'm scared. You know, I really want a relationship, but I'm scared because my rela— my, my last partner, uh, it ended very abruptly. So I want a relationship, that's a positive thing. Uh, there's another part that's, I don't want a relationship, I'm gonna get hurt again. So we, we journey into where that part is, what the fear is, how we can look after that part. Of that person. This is actually one of my client stories, and now she's with a wonderful woman. You know, she dared risk her heart again, but we had to journey into the terrified part of her heart and find out what it needed to say in order for her to say, okay, I know you don't want me to have a partnership ever again, never want to go through that again, but let's try something else, and I will hold you and I will keep you safe. And I know we're both scared, but this feels pretty good. So it's, it's making conscious rather than, rather than, why am I never finding a partner? And it's like that push-me-pull, because her heart was saying, there is no way, we are not doing that again. So we're working with the body in a, in a more still and subtle way, but it's a magical process because when I sit opposite somebody My body, I call it limbic resonance, will pick up what the other body in the room is feeling. So sometimes the— it's like a detective game, but it's like suddenly I'll be like, oh, my shoulder suddenly starts hurting. I'm like, what is it that you might— which part of your body is holding the tension around this? And they'll be like, my shoulder. And I'm like, yeah, not— you're not kidding me. Because our bodies are reading each other, you know. It's like anyone who walks in the room with you, that they, they feel good. You, you emanate warmth, you emanate laughter. Even though I may not have heard you laugh yet, I can tell you laugh a lot. I can tell you have a deep throaty laugh, a belly laugh, you know.

Hmm.

I can tell that you catch people's eyes when something funny is about to happen, and, and my body would go effervescent waiting for the moment where we're going to crack up. So much information. Yeah.

And it's so interesting for me because I know that if I move, it's gonna physiologically impact my body, how I feel, all those good hormones gonna come up. Would you have like anything to say about like the reconnection with the nervous system, like as You move?

Yeah, because the, the type of musical journey that I hold, um, has 5 very distinct phases. So there's, there's like a flowing phase where you're very receptive to yourself. There's a staccato phase where it's much more, um, angular or definite. There's, there's the rhythms there. I'll often say, okay, now we're cooking, you know. And that's really— and some people would say, oh, that's like there's anger and passion a lot more. So there's receiving yourself and there's expressing yourself. And the third rhythm is chaos, where there is like when a dog shakes off water off its back, that the human being starts to really let rip. The beats, the BPM is much higher, and you're shaking stuff out, literally out of your nervous system that wants to just free itself up. You're making So when, when we hit the other side with the 4th rhythm as lyrical, then, then there's a lot more space in the body because the heart's expressed itself, and it, it can really become a place of the soul almost. It's very mesmerizing, and that's when also things come in that you can't quite explain, like a deeper knowing or, or a sense of the dream that you want to have. A sense of welcoming something that you know actually is easy and you could let it happen. And, you know, it's like a vision for yourself or something bigger, the world. And stillness, Gabrielle Roth, who designed these 5 rhythms, was really for her the rhythm of healing. So stillness at the end of this big beautiful gestalt, this wave, isn't Isn't you lie on the floor and that's it, it's done. The stillness is where you almost want even more presence than ever. It's, it's, it's like it's almost, it's almost post-orgasmic, but it's still orgasmic when you become more attuned. You're very effervescent, you're very fizzy, and there's, there's things that can be communicated to you in that, in that moment by your body or your soul that you've worked quite hard to hear. Because you're so far away from the mechanical movement and the list and the job. You've let your prefrontal cortex relax. You're back in your limbic and your primal mind, and you're more connected to the bigger dreaming of everything. So in those moments, you know, you've worked so hard to empty. I really love the deep listening of like, oh, now this is possible. You know, now this is possible. So there's, there's a, there's a real magic to it, watching people empty, watching, watching them receive themselves as well. And, and it does involve range because we can get very stuck. I mean, often you've seen a woman cry and she— and then she'll say, I'm angry. And I'm like, dude, what's the anger then? Because women have been so conditioned that their anger isn't welcomed that they find another channel and they do it through tears. And I have such compassion because it's like you were never told your anger was safe. You were never told your anger was welcome. So I love your tears, but also bring, bring me your, bring me your anger also, you know, because— and so the, this wave of different rhythms really allows you to have a fuller range, a much bigger range, and you get more comfortable with each emotion, each part of yourself. So it's very, very healthy, very, very healthy. And the more you do it, the more it impacts your life off the dance floor. Because when that receiving of yourself at the first part of the dance, you'll do it on the daily. It's like, oh, I just lost myself. Like, I'll receive myself again.

And it's just so easy to be lost. And yeah, it takes sometimes a little bit of time to see that we need to come back.

Yeah. And I'll never forget the first orgasm I had on the dance floor, just through dancing. Because you are literally waking yourself up until nothing is in the way, that you will just hit ecstasy. And it was so strange because we're very taught that orgasm happens through stimulation. For stimulation, you need touch. And you and I know through the training of Leila Martin that actually you can— if you move enough chi in your body, that's what you're— that's what's going to rise up and bubble up. So I was dancing and dancing and dancing, and suddenly it's like, oh, I'm actually having an orgasm on the dance floor. And I, and I, all I did was move until nothing was in the way.

Yeah, that's our natural state.

Yeah.

Right? Like, yeah, this anger you brought up, you know, when you were talking about it, I'm like, yeah, like, it's, it's so Raw and it's rage. And I was thinking at, you know, about the, the Kali, the, the Indian goddess, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like tongue pulled, like very intense. And she's like in full rage mode and how unfortunately those range of emotion are rarely welcome. And because we haven't learned what is healthy anger, right? How to even express it. How beautiful it is to be able to open to that through dance, through movement.

Yeah, it's such a great practice ground because if you do start to experience anger on the dance floor, you're not going to lash out at anybody. Um, and, and it moves through you and it shifts. But also you can practice experiencing it until you can tolerate a lot more of it. And if you have a really angry dance, also some, some of it's discharged, some of it's grounded, some of it's expressed, so that by the time you move towards the person that you're angry with, you're much more able— there's, there's a process that I hold which is feel, integrate, deliver. So the dance floor is a great place to feel it, then you integrate it a bit. By the time you've got to the person you want to talk to, you can really, really, like, reduce it down into, when you said that, I felt this. I don't feel okay about that. 3 lines, as opposed to this big drama, or a freeze and not saying anything and just nodding and carrying on as normal. So, getting— realising that when we When we express anger on a dance floor, that nothing bad happens, we simply expressed anger on a dance floor, gives a lot of permission for all the childhood messaging we got. Oh yeah, anger's not welcome, anger's ugly, anger is destructive, whatever it would— the messaging that we all got. And of course gender plays a big role in that as well. As women, somehow we were induced into women aren't going to get angry, which is— Manipulative, because we're human beings with a lot of force in us. And it's, it's, um, a woman's anger is a massive gift to the room. Massively. We, we really, we often center community and others. So if, if a woman's angry, it's really worth listening to. And our anger is often to do with boundary transgressions. Which is another massive thing that needs to be righted in society. So a woman's anger really is very, very welcome anywhere I am. But it really is. It's, it's, it's the time of women's anger right now for all the right reasons.

Yeah. There is this sense of liberation that is coming today in a world that is very masculine still. So like, I'm kind of curious, like how How do you navigate that?

It's interesting you mentioned Kali because she can be very misunderstood. Um, and when she visited me, she destroyed so much in my life that really I didn't need. And, and also I embodied her and destroyed much in my life that I didn't need. Uh, 2 things happened. Um, and, and what we, what we, what we, we get classed like, oh, anger's bad or destructive, when actually it's a loving act. And Kali, if you, if you want to go and explore her further, as I'm sure many people will. She comes because she loves you. She's here, a bit like the perimenopause, she's here to take out what you no longer need. So, it's very loving. And we fear destruction, but destruction can be fantastic. And women have a natural understanding of this. If you have a menstrual cycle, you know that you build something up, you have a moment of fertility, you have your summer month, you know, ovulating. But also at the end of it, if, if there's no nothing to show for it, then you destroy it and you let it go and you bleed and you let it out of your body. So we have spring, summer, autumn, winter naturally. We know about destruction. We, you know, we enter that, we enter the shadow just before we bleed, don't we? So we naturally know about Kali. And, and we, you know, I think that lots of people, um, you know, have got lost in, oh, you know, is it good vibes only? It's like, you can't— yeah, yeah, you're cutting yourself off from passion. Why are we angry? Because we care.

Yes.

Because we fucking care. You can't take that away from me. I refuse to be half dead. I care. I would fight for you.

There is this intensity that, you know, I find like into like womanhood evolution and when women get to the second stage in life, you know, and like menopause, you can see perimenopause, menopause everywhere, right? And right now I'm just changing my opinion and, and idea about what it is and why is it, is it there.

Yeah. And, you know, it's seeing as we're on the Sex Mystic podcast as well, there's a story as, as though women get less sexual as they get older, and the opposite is true. It's a patriarchal lie because maidens are much more potentially manipulatable than, than mothers or crones. Motherhood is sexy. Motherhood is sexy, just like, because you're all fertile with tits and bellies, and, you know, it's a beautiful time. Your heart's open, loving your kids. But also, like, the crone is like the, the Eros in the crone years is so undervalued. But I would recommend to anyone, go make love with a perimenopausal woman because she does not give a shit anymore. She is the sexiest thing on this planet because she does not care. She is unbridled, she's unleashed, she gives no fucks, and therefore she is well worth— like, she honestly, you will get tired.

She will exhaust you.

Yeah, it's brilliant. And yet we're told the opposite is true. The English phrase, you know, oh, you're on the shelf now. It's like, really? That— what a waste, you know. So it's also like, actually, there's a massive rising in your sexuality if you are in touch with Eros in the perimenopausal years, which is a fantastic flame of which to dance with.

Yes, yes. Aging is an amazing journey.

Sexiest part.

Like, it's just like the deepest, like for advanced level, I feel.

Yeah, advanced level. Yeah, yeah, really. Really? Yeah.

So before we wrap up, um, I would love you to tell us a little bit where we can find you.

Okay, great. You know, I'm so impressed with how much we covered. We, we went from dance floors to perimenopause. Um, yeah, you can find me— so I think the gift I'm giving everybody is a free ticket to the, the Body Song, which is, which is my ecstatic ritual dance space for women and non-males. Um, so if you mention Fleur or you mention the Sex Mystic Podcast, you can come and get a free ticket for that. And my website is fellgrace.net. All the information's on there. Yeah.

Wonderful, Chloe. Thank you for this conversation, for your wisdom, for the work that you do. It was wonderful. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Okay, and I won't stop the recording because this is the moment where we start talking and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

Yeah, totally. It's like the, oh, I wish I said, I wish I had said. I'm glad we talked about aging. I think it's so good. I think there is such a rising movement of reclamation going on. And women are angry. Women are really angry. So yeah.

I was connecting with my mom, you know, like with the podcast and everything, trying to, to, you know, as I'm learning and having my journey, I'm trying to, to, to give like, you know, like little pieces that she can use if she wants. And we were connecting toward like pleasure and She says something like, well, I mean, you know. And I was like, I know what? Like, like what? There is like an expiry date? Like, what's going on? You know? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, like it's, it's, I mean, it can get heavy very fast, but I was like, mom, this is like your birthright. This is, this is not about that. And there is, you know, like all the grooming that we receive about associating, you know, maybe a partner or whatever to pleasure and desire. And it makes me sad.

Yeah, it is sad because that generation as well, they have less tools to um, to really reclaim. It's very, very programmed around, you know, sex with another as opposed to sex with yourself. Um, and, and my, my, like, lineages and my— well, my family's unusual, you know. Like, my, my dad's dating and he's in his 80s, you know.

Um, wow.

Yeah, there's like a freedom. Yeah, totally amazing. So he breaks the mold. It's just sort of like, he knows what I do for a living and he just thinks it's hilarious. He thinks it's great, you know. But, but I also think in the perimenopause, it's like anything undealt with comes up. So you're either going to get hypersexual because you're getting really unleashed and unhinged, um, or you get very cut off from your sexuality with all the hormones and the stress and all the life changes that need. And that's where actually a self-pleasure practice is so important, um, you know. And there's— you can grab as much oil as you need, you know. It's like Um, and it doesn't even need to be penetrative. There's so many ways to pleasure that I wish, you know, to, to offer women, you know, because I think it's a struggle. And if you're going to rely on a guy, um, you're going to have to educate him also on, on how to make love to you differently. The formula is going to change, baby. Not delivering like you used to. We need to talk again.

Women are waking up to their body and be like, no, no, no, no, no, like what used to do, what I used to accept, the boundaries that was there, like we're changing and evolving.

In long-term partnership, it's if, if you have the, the enjoyment of it, it's like actually you had, um, hopefully you had a partner, like it's like having 5 different partners but it was in one person. Because they kept evolving and changing, evolving and changing, evolving and changing, you know. Maybe it's like food. It's like, you said you liked avocados in your 20s, you may well like mangoes in your 30s. No one's going to judge you on that. Like— But you said you liked avocados! Well, I don't anymore. All right, take care, Fleur.

Okay, awesome.

Mwah, love you, love you, love you.

Bye-bye!

Bye!