#119: When Things Get Hard, Say This (It Works in Any Race) with Jeff Pelletier

It's not if things get hard, it's when things get hard. There's always a low point or multiple low points typically. When that happens, I just remind myself that I paid for this, I chose to be here, I trained for this, and I try to remember why I did those things, why I took time off and I, I sacrificed so much, not in the race but in the training. I want to see how I'm going to rise to that challenge when things get hard.

Jeff Pelletier is an ultra runner and a filmmaker from Vancouver. He went from struggling to qualify for the Boston Marathon on to actually discovering a joy for trail and mountain running. In this conversation, we discuss what trail running taught him that years of road running couldn't, how to push through low points in any race and finish strong even when things get uncomfortable, and lessons from extreme challenges like the Badwater 135 Mile or Moab 240 that apply to everyday runners chasing their 5K, half marathon, marathon, or first ultra. This episode is brought to you by LMNT. A lot of runners think that hydration means just drinking more water, but without enough electrolytes, especially sodium, water alone doesn't do the job. I use LMNT for my electrolyte needs for all four seasons, from the colder winter months like now, where you don't really realize how much you're still sweating and losing electrolytes, to the hottest summer months in some of the most extreme conditions. Last year I paced and cruised today's guest Jeff at his Badwater 135. This was 135 miles through Death Valley, one of the hottest places on Earth, and hydration but also electrolytes is incredibly important in these conditions. That's why I rely on LMNT. It is a simple science-backed electrolyte mix with sodium, potassium, and magnesium. No sugar, no junk, just what your body actually needs to stay balanced and perform. In my new book, Running Breakthroughs, the topic of electrolyte comes up frequently from myself, but also it's mentioned several times by different podcast guests because getting your electrolyte balance right can really make a big difference in your training and in your racing, whether you're training for a 5K, a half marathon, marathon, or ultra distance. You can try it for yourself. Go to drinkelement.com/flow to receive a free sample pack with any order. Hope you enjoy my conversation with Jeff Pelletier. Jeff, welcome to The Extra Mile Show. I'm glad that you're here.

Floris, thanks for having me. I'm glad we can make this happen finally.

Yeah, we've been on a few exciting epic running adventures in 2025 last year.

That's right. You and I got to know each other quite well over the past season or two, quite as you tend to do, especially when someone is pacing you. It's one of the best and most intimate ways to get to know someone.

Exactly. So you ran Badwater 135 last year, and we're going to absolutely talk about that in more detail because we spent that entire time together with me pacing you and crewing you and seeing you go through highs and lows. So there's a lot of different things to unfold there. But there's quite a few different people listening who might not necessarily know you or your running story. So I think it might be helpful to actually hear just a little bit going backwards. Of your first marathon was not until 2008. And so you basically started a little bit later at the age of 27 getting into marathon running. Tell me a little bit more what excited you about running and how were those first few training cycles and races for you?

I remember exactly why and how I started running. I think I was jogging as many of us start doing in our 20s to try to, you know, mid-20s, you start to maybe put on some weight and I was probably jogging 2 or 3 times a week, and I'd do maybe, you know, 5 kilometers around the neighborhood or something on the way to the gym, maybe. But it wasn't until a friend of mine took up— he, I believe he bought Hal Higdon's Training for Your First Marathon book, and he brought it. It was actually— sorry, I should say a colleague— and he brought it to the office, and he said, yeah, I'm training for my first marathon. I thought, that's cool. And then he ended up actually hurting his back, and he's like, does— do you want this book? I'm, I'm My race is off. I'm not doing this anymore. And I thought, you know, if he could do it, maybe I could do it. Like, this sounds like a cool bucket list thing. So for me, it really started as a bucket list thing. And I was 27, and I remember reading that at 27 they say that's sort of your physical peak, you know, in terms of VO2 max and a bunch of metrics. And I didn't feel like I was at the peak of much at the time. So it felt like a good way to challenge myself and get fit. And I was never a natural athlete growing up. I was more into music and you know, arts. So yeah, it was a way for me to sort of like basically try to see if I could reach whatever that elusive peak was. So I did my first marathon at 27, 2008. It was the BMO Vancouver Marathon. I had done a half— sorry, I should say actually I did a half marathon in lead up to that, and I didn't really know how to train for that either. I was, I think I was doing half marathons every weekend to train for that. And then I did get that Hal Higdon book, learned how to properly train. I ran a very pedestrian time, 4 hours and some change, which I knew I was leaving something on the table. I ended up getting hooked up with a group called the Peak Center for Human Performance here in Vancouver, where they do blood lactate analysis and a whole bunch of sort of data-based training. And that really appealed to me right away, 'cause I'm sort of a numbers guy. I'm overly analytical, perhaps to a fault. And so I worked with them then on my next 2 marathons, and we got that time way down, shaved off a bunch of time. But by my third marathon, I ran the Victoria Marathon, I ran the BMO Marathon again, I found it was getting diminishing returns. And I could kind of see that there was a honeymoon phase to running where at first you're just knocking your times down. But I could kind of see that eventually I was gonna be fighting and working for minutes, training for an entire season, and maybe if I'm lucky and don't have to stop to use the bathroom, shaving 3 minutes off my time. And maybe that's where we could talk about, how I transitioned into trail running, because that's where things kind of really took off for me.

Absolutely. Yeah, because I believe it was on a trip to China that you started discovering what it was actually like to not run on a flat terrain and to actually get quite a few hills in the mix. So maybe share a bit more about that transition indeed.

That's right. I had just run a marathon. I can't remember if that was my second or my third. And I went and visited a friend in Hong Kong. And I was looking to do, you know, I had some fitness carrying over from my marathon. And I thought maybe I could do a little local race while I'm here. It seems like a fun, you know, seeing a city by running through it always sounds like a— is always a great idea. And, uh, there wasn't really anything happening at the time, but I stumbled on a series called the King of the Hills. I believe it was sponsored by North Face at the time, King of the Hills Challenge. And they had 5 different races as part of a series around Hong Kong in different locations, one on Lantau Island, one in, uh, Central. And so there happened to be this one race happening. It was around a 20-kilometer, 18-kilometer trail race out in the mountains, and Fortunately, my friend helped me get to it because it was very remote and navigating around Hong Kong on the train system was difficult, but I managed to get out there. And it turns out Hong Kong has incredible trails, beautiful but very difficult, hilly, lots of steps. But I had a blast. I had a blast.

And humid too, right? I remember how humid it was when I was in Hong Kong. I was like, that was a whole nother way of running too.

Fortunately, this was later in the year. It was around New Year's, that sort of week. So it wasn't too bad, but yes, it gets very, very hot. Fast forward, I mean, this is jumping way ahead, but just recently we went back to Hong Kong and did another race there, the Translantau by UTMB, about 15 years later. So that really closed that chapter for me, going back to kind of where it all started for me 15 years later. And that race nearly killed me 'cause it was much earlier in the season and very, very humid. But that sort of kicked something off for me, I think, where I realized, you know, trail running, it's not about times 'cause everywhere you run, I mean, the conditions, humidity, the trails, the terrain, the distances even are always a little different. So you stop comparing your times in the way that I think we end up doing obsessively sometimes in road running. And it becomes the A goal is just to go out and have a good time and have fun.

That's such a big one because I think I see quite a few people indeed chasing some of these specific race times with road running. And I know even, even in your background, like, you tried to qualify for the Boston Marathon and you hit some stumbling blocks. You missed some of the Boston qualifying times in those early days. You experienced different injuries, and there was kind of that pressure of times. Then you transitioned to trails, and the pressure was not there or not in the same way. What, what from, from your experience, like transitioning from road to trail, Do you have any high-level thoughts or advice to other people considering that transition or any advice to anyone wanting to get into trail running?

I think it's about reframing your goals. And again, this is where for anybody struggling to hit their somewhat arbitrary time targets, I mean, a Boston Marathon qualifying time isn't exactly arbitrary, that's very much set in stone. But other times can be arbitrary, whether it's sub-3 hours, sub-4 hours, whatever it is you're going for in the marathon or any half marathon, or 10K time. Sometimes it can be difficult to reach that, especially as, you know, fast forward now from when I started at 27, I'm turning 45 this year. So as an aging athlete, I'm not, I think my fastest times might be behind me, possibly, we'll see. But that doesn't mean I can't try to run further or something else, do a hillier event, do a hotter event, reframing my goals, looking for different heights, so to speak, sometimes literally. Can give me something else to shoot for that isn't strictly time-based. And again, I think that's, that's important if we are dealing with injury or even again as an aging athlete.

Yeah. It's interesting. Matt Fitzgerald from 80/20 Running, I had him on the podcast as well, and it was at age 46 that he ended up running his personal best in a marathon where initially he really had this goal in the back of his mind of like trying to run sub 2:40. Yeah. And he ended up going to, like, an elite training camp and joining them for a while. He wrote a book about it as well. And then he ended up— but it was once again that mindset and then also creating the environment in order to set yourself up. But that's somewhat of another thing, right? At some point, it is also, is that your priority? Like, you have to let go of a whole lot of things in life and make that a number one priority to pull off some of these wild running goals where maybe 10, 15 years ago, you would have had more time to do it or other priorities as well. So I think that's, that's, that's a big one too. You know, you know, one thing that came to mind, it's kind of interesting. You were talking about my, my slowest times might be behind me. I just saw you run the Mammoth 200-mile race, and it was actually more than 200 miles. And the last few miles, you were running so fast that you caught us off guard. We were standing at the finish line ready for you. And we're going to film you while you were coming in. And you ended up running together with your pacer like 6 30-minute miles or something the last few miles, like back into town. And literally all of us missed you almost coming in. And I was like, oh, there's Jeff already. So it's just funny to hear you say that way back in the day you missed like the Boston qualifying time. But as far as for times and speeds and how things have changed for you over the years, you've just become an entire different runner with different priorities and different goals.

And yeah, well, and I should clarify, I mean, for me, my personal best marathon time is definitely not behind me because I didn't— I had only worked at it for a few years. I am a very different runner now, so I will go back to the roads. It's been years since I've done anything longer than a 10K, or I think I might have done a half marathon a few years back, but I would love to run the Comrades Ultramarathon one day. Oh, totally. Historic event. It's on the road, roughly 80 kilometers, I believe. But you have to run a marathon qualifying time. And of course, the faster that qualifying time is, the further upfront you are, the further, you know, you're in an earlier corral, and everybody says you want to be upfront as far as possible. So I would take that very seriously if and when, or I should say when, Audrey and I both, my partner, decide to run Comrades. We're gonna go back to the roads and do a really good block leading up to a marathon, probably in the fall, maybe the Berlin Marathon or something, I'm not sure. We'll try to make it really count. And that'll be my time to run a PB. And I'd love to run sub-3 hours at that point, which is something I never quite achieved when I was in my late 20s. I have no doubt I'll do it, not just 'cause of fitness, but because for me now, doing a 3-hour long run, that's just a Saturday. That's just my, you know, so whereas back in the day that was a very intimidating thing.

Yeah, it's really cool to see actually. So there's quite a few people who are going from road to trail. Yeah. I'm also hearing you talk about going from trail to road or even now seeing Courtney Dauwalter and doing her first marathon and then doing CIM again and like seeing like multiple road marathons that she's going after here in the recent year, so.

Yeah, I think the best athletes are flexible and, you know, we talk a lot about hybrid hybrid athletes when it comes to strength training and running, and there's obvious benefits to that. But I think athletes who can do both road and trail or who have experience in both tend to be healthier and often better runners. And one example is, you know, I have some friends who are trail runners who have only ever trail ran. They've never been a road runner, and they don't have a similar, you know, they don't always have as much experience with structured training, things like speed work at the track, you know, how to pace yourself on a tempo run. In fact, a lot of trail runners, because the terrain is so varied, they never really internalize and learn how to pace, like how, what a 4-minute-per-kilometer pace feels like or whatever that is. So they run purely by feel. Now running by feel is great, but learning, knowing how to pace yourself is also really good, especially in those finishing miles, that last 10-mile stretch of the Mammoth 200 when I was feeling great. I mean, it's because I practice finishing fast and I do, hill repeats, we do speed work at the track. I mean, there's a lot of things, there's a lot of tools that I developed as a road runner that I've carried with me into trail running. So I often advise trail runners that, you know, we kind of joke like once you go to trail, you tend not to go back to road, but you should once in a while. It's great to, for example, maybe target a fast 10K in your off-season over the winter to get some turnover back in your legs, but also to recalibrate and familiarize, refamiliarize yourself with pacing, with speed work, which really are fundamental to running, whether it's on the trails or on the road, I think.

Yeah, I think the faster turnover is absolutely a good one. Sometimes the pace perception kind of goes out of the window when you've been running a lot of lower intensity miles or a lot of climbs. Indeed, I, I'm a big fan of even running hard on the downhill, and it like not only helps with the pace perception, it sometimes beats up your quads to some extent. But I think especially during the later stages of these races, that's comes in very handy as well.

Exactly. We wanna be able to finish fast, hard, leave it all out there. And our running form does change sometimes for the negative. I say our as in me and some of the people in my community who do these long, long distance runs, we sometimes become shufflers to a degree. And you wanna have that kick when you need it. So it's that running form that can only be developed when running fast and hard. Again, whether it's on the track, on the roads, or on the hills. Some of that stuff is really fundamental. So I think that trail runners who have never done any road running are missing out on that experience, and it's never too late to reincorporate some of that. And again, having some road races as a B race. And the opposite is true as well. I think for road runners to get a little bit of experience on the trails with a little bit of— it's a little more like speed play as opposed to speed work when you're running on the trails. Your efforts are more variable because you're up, you're down, you're using different muscles, you're you know, you're experiencing different challenges in terms of weather and terrain. So I think as well, road runners looking at incorporating a little bit of trails, whether it's racing or just going out and doing some training, I think it can make you a stronger runner. And I think it can just keep it interesting, keep it more fun.

Totally. Totally. What were some of those first races for you like when you started going into trail running, trail races, and then even ultra races? What were those experiences like for you? Because I think you learn so much from those initial races. Like, everything is new. It's new terrain, new distance, new everything. What were those experiences like for you? And based on those experiences, anything that you would want to share with those listening who might be considering doing their first races like that?

So I remember as well the exact moment that I sort of set my sights on trail running and more specifically ultra distance running. I was training at the Peak Center that I mentioned, and I met a guy there who was doing, I think he was doing a workout on a treadmill at like 18% grade or something. And I was like, what are you doing? What are you training for? And he said, well, I'm training for this 100-mile race coming up. And my mind was blown, like 100 miles. And he started talking to me about it and he said, well, I mean, there's other distances as well. Like for example, here in Vancouver, we have a race called the Knee Knackerin' North Shore Trail Run, and it's 50 kilometers, roughly 30 miles. And it's been happening for 25 years. It's a local favorite, very difficult, tons of climbing, and it basically follows this trail called the Baden-Powell Trail on the North Shore of Vancouver. It's, it's a rite of passage for trail runners in Vancouver. And so he mentioned that that was coming up and that I set my sights on that race. And the reason that appealed to me is 'cause it's just a little bit longer than the BMO Vancouver Marathon that happens here. But there's also this t-shirt they used to publish that showed the elevation profiles compared of BMO versus the Niñaker, which by comparison were these massive peaks. And so I had hiked on the Baden-Powell Trail before, and it never occurred to me that you could run it, yet alone run it in a single day. And so it was sort of that idea of recalibrating my perception of what was possible on, again, on a trail I was familiar with. But more importantly, it was meeting Jose Uzumi, that guy I mentioned, and so shout out to him. He was one of my early mentors, and he said, come out and run with me. Yeah, I'll, I'll take you out. We, I got some buddies, we run every weekend. And so I ran with him and Jer and Ray, a couple guys. Um, and that basically led me to meet a whole bunch of other people in the local trail running community, and the rest is history. And so when people ask me how to get started on the trails, I always say find a group, join a clinic at a, from a specialty run store, whatever it is, find a, find a community. Because there's so much to learn with trail running. It's not just about the running, it's about the safety, especially here in British Columbia. Safety is a major factor. Bears, weather, terrain. I mean, you can get lost in the mountains very easily. Now, once you learn some basic skills and have the right equipment and the right training, those risks can all be mitigated. But the important part is that you want to learn from people who have already kind of been through it. Pacing, how to even run on certain terrain, nutrition, the gear to use. There's so much gear, it can be overwhelming when it comes to trail running because again, there's safety gear to consider. You're carrying extra things, especially when we go into the backcountry. There is a steep learning curve, but again, there are people who are more than willing to teach and to be your mentor, and you can learn from these people. And it's so much easier now than it was 15 years ago when it was a little bit harder to find communities. Now there are run clubs and group runs in any major mountain town, any city, going hitting the trails. Almost every day of the week. So that would be my number one tip is for anybody wanting to get started, because that's what helped me is finding a community. It really motivates you. You know, it's that, you know, I like to joke I kind of fell in with the wrong crowd because 50 kilometers, you know, people will say, if you think that's crazy, look at what Jackie's doing, or look at what— I mean, people, you start to realize that there are some really big, you know, really big goals that you can set for yourself out there. So it really becomes a motivator. But again, Finding a community, learning from others is way more important. I think that's also important in road running, but road running you can just do on your own very successfully. It can be a lone wolf kind of sport. I don't think that's the case with trail running. I think it hinges more on finding a community.

Totally. And what you mentioned earlier about some of these others that you'll meet with their goals in the running group, that makes all the difference indeed. Once I was surrounded by my first trail running community up in LA, you didn't feel like an outlier wanting to think about training for a 50K. That was the norm. Or there were some other people who were thinking about that as well, who had possibly done it already. Yeah. And that part alone, like, makes it more relatable, makes it— you can ask any questions at the beginning. There's so many questions that you just don't know how to carry your nutrition, how to carry your hydration, how to, like, go about this. What are salt pills? Like, all of these things, there's a learning curve throughout it. And every race distance is gonna bring their own challenges. Every terrain is gonna bring their own challenges. And so surrounding yourself with people who can help with that. And like you said, you'll be surprised how willing people are to share that information. Yeah. Because you personally wouldn't mind sharing some of that. And there's plenty of other people who are similar to that.

Yeah. I mean, I love ushering people, new people into the sport. And again, there's, there's groups and clinics and things that are structured very much for that, that, that purpose. And I think there's something else with trail running as well where it is less dependent on pace. And I think that becomes more, that makes it more inclusive and welcoming when it comes to group runs. Whereas with road running, I think it can be a little more challenging if you're training for a marathon, for example, or a 10K, whatever it is, and you have this very specific pace goal you're supposed to hit. And if a friend is just a little bit off, you know, one of you is slowing down for the others. Whereas on trail running, you might find that you're running with a buddy who's maybe you're a little faster on the climbs, but they're a little faster on the descents, but it kind of evens out. And so I think it's a little more conducive to running in groups on the trails. Again, there's a necessity I think to that as well when it comes to safety. But, um, I think just as far, as far as pace, it can be a little more welcoming that way as well. It's not as intimidating for new runners. Um, where I've seen that on the road where you can get kind of dropped a little bit easier and it's less, maybe less intuitive that you'd stop and wait a lot. Whereas on the trails, you tend to regroup at intersections. And so it's a little more, yeah, I think a little more conducive to running in groups.

So then the race started become, the races started becoming longer and longer.

Yeah.

And then you started not just getting into the 100-mile distance, but even the 200-mile distance. And one race that stands out to me when looking at your running portfolio is the Moab 240. As in a race where a lot of things went very well and some things also did not. And that's kind of the case with multiple longer races that we do. Can you tell me a little bit more about what is it like to run a 200-mile race? Like, first of all, what goes through your mind at the start of a race like that? And what are some of the main challenges that you encounter, especially on these longer races?

Well, I think one thing I learned, and I didn't rush into the longer distances. I mean, I started by doing a few 50Ks. I did a 50-mile race, roughly 80 kilometers. I did 100K, and it, I believe it was my third season of trail running where I finally did my first 100-mile race. And I knew that was a goal ultimately. I didn't want to rush into it. I figured give myself time. And a lot of the advice I was receiving was think of your running as a career. Don't think of it as a season. Get— take your time, learn the basics, learn about nutrition, learn about foot care, learn about some of these things that you want to get your reps in earlier on. And you can do a handful of 50K races in a season. I personally don't like to do more than 100 miler in a season or maybe 2. So it's harder to get those reps in and to fail fast, right? So, and also your body needs time to adapt. You know, it does take years for your body to, you know, you go through all sorts of— this is the same on the road. You know, I had all the I had runner's knee. I had all sorts of stuff early on. And it's only now where, well, even now I still deal with some overuse injuries, but my body has adapted to a point where I don't roll my ankles anymore, for example. My ankles are rubbery and I can bend them and they pop right back. But that's taken over a decade of my tendons getting strong and pliable. You know, it was a few years, By the point I ran my first 100-miler, I think that I was, again, I had learned the fundamentals. I had failed quickly on a series of 50 to 100-kilometer races. I then did maybe a half dozen 100-milers before I did my first 200-miler, which was in 2018, a big race called the Tour des Geants in the Italian Alps. Incredible experience. And what I was finding was, again, it was that reframing of it's not so much about how fast I can run, it's how far can I run? And so again, it's changing the goal, changing the goalpost. It's not a fixed time. How fast can I run that time? It's, can I go further? Okay, yeah, I can. Well, what about 200 miles? That race is actually 205. I did another race the next year that was even longer, 230 miles, you know, and then the Moab 240 was of course 240 miles. And that was a race back here in North America. When I ran that race, it was my third 200-plus mile race. And at that point, again, I've I've run close to a dozen 100+ mile distance races, stage races, a bunch of self-supported adventures. I feel like I've tackled most of the problems that come up in a race. And ultra running, even more so than road running up to the marathon distance, is all about problem solving. I believe that road running, at least the way I always approached it, was it was about doing everything perfect. Having a perfect day. For you to hit a marathon PB, you kind of have to have a perfect day. Again, if you stop to use the bathroom, you're probably not gonna hit your PB 'cause that 2 minutes is gonna make all the difference in the world. Whereas on a 100-mile, 200-mile race, I mean, there are ups, downs, left, rights. I mean, there is everything can happen. You're out there for multiple days. It's not about doing everything perfectly. It's about having enough tools in your toolbox to tackle all of the problems that inevitably will come up. So it's a completely different thing. It's a true adventure, true adventure where you are expecting problems. And the fun is, what are we gonna encounter on this one? Are we gonna get a sudden snowstorm that threatens to cancel the race? Are we gonna encounter wildlife? Will there be Trail marking issues, or maybe just lapse of paying attention and I go off trail often more than once in a race. And how do we deal with that? Um, foot problems, stomach issues, cramping. I mean, there are so many things, not that can, but that often do come up in a race. So it's all about how you, how you juggle all those. And that's the fun part for me. I mean, having said all that, I'm still trying to find what that distance is. What is my longest distance? But, That Moab 240 was all about putting it all together. And I didn't have a perfect race, but I had a very good race. And what was happening was people were falling off at the front. So other people weren't having a good race, or rather the problems that were coming up, they weren't able to troubleshoot quite as well. So we're having people with breathing problems because of some of the altitude changes and they were getting pulmonary edema and maybe having to drop from the race. People with major foot issues where You know, I had learned about foot care and was, I was doing regular foot baths throughout the race and really, really taking care of my feet. And so I had no foot problems, no blisters, and some people were not having that experience, maybe the opposite. So I found myself working my way up in that field from 20th to 10th to 4th to 2nd place. And at that point, I was racing for 1st place for the first time in my life.

Jesse Haynes, right?

With Jesse Haynes for the first time in my life in a major event. And of course we were documenting the whole thing for YouTube, which is something that I always do with my events. So that race was sort of just a fun way to bring all that experience I had together in an event where, again, it wasn't a perfect race, but things just, we were troubleshooting, I think, better than other people were troubleshooting, I think was what it was.

So it really does come down to challenges are gonna come up, it's how you respond to those challenges that the longer the race distance, the more like that troubleshooting becomes a very important tool. Whereas indeed in a 100-meter sprint or even in a half marathon or a marathon, yeah, there's going to be some troubleshooting, but less of that versus the longer distance. Yeah.

And it's not just that. I mean, again, that's part of the fun. That's what makes these races real adventures. Adventure in the sense that there's stakes, there's there's ups, there's downs, and that's all to be expected. Nothing, you know, no real adventure goes perfectly as planned. This isn't a day out at Disneyland. This isn't, you know, there's some risk to it. There's some stakes. There's a real potential for failure. And by failure, I don't mean missing your PB by 2 minutes. I mean completely blowing up and not being able to finish the race, having potentially a medical issue where fortunately there's always medical staff standing by. So it's typically, those issues typically aren't that serious, but things like, I mean, we were talking about the Badwater 135 where things like falling behind on your hydration or your electrolyte balance and getting hyponatremia, I mean, at that distance and in those environments, that becomes amplified to the extremes and can become a major medical issue. So, when you have enough experience and as you increase the distances, that's where it starts to become really fun because you have so much experience that you want to throw at these problems. And, the troubleshooting I think again becomes becomes the rewarding part of the race, especially when you can push through successfully to the other side.

How do you work through low points? Talk to me about any advice that you have to those listening when you hit a tough spot in a race. How do you deal with that?

First of all, I think, and this can sound cheesy, but I think it's important to know why you're doing, to find your why. Right? And we talk a lot about finding your why. And I think early on I maybe poo-pooed that idea a little bit. And more recently, I think I've realized I just hadn't recognized that I do have a strong why. And that really, really crystallized actually for me at the Mammoth 200. There's actually two pieces to this. And so the first thing I typically do is, first of all, I'll remind myself why I'm there. So it's not if things get hard, it's when things get hard. So if I'm doing a race that's gonna take me about 3 days, 72 hours, and we're mostly moving the whole time, we're running for the most part the whole time, maybe a few naps here and there. Inevitably the first day goes pretty well, that first 50 to 100 miles. The last day, and that's, again, we can talk, um, I wanna talk a little bit more about that. The finish, I typically finish really strong and for me that's the real fun part. But it's the middle. The middle is always a challenge. There's always a low point or multiple low points typically. When that happens, I just remind myself that I paid for this. I chose to be here. I trained for this. And I try to remember why I did those things, why I took time off and I sacrificed so much, not in the race, but in the training. And again, paid and invested all this time, money, and resources, and attention, and, And it's because I— this is my own why, everybody has a different reason— but I want to see how I'm going to rise to that challenge when things get hard. You know, it's maybe I have a particularly easy and sheltered life and I need to create these artificial challenges for myself. But either way, I want to see if I can rise to that challenge, if I can push through when it's I don't want to say painful, but very uncomfortable, where all you want to do is stop moving, sit down, have a nap, just sleep for 10 hours, eat a big meal. I mean, the things that are completely natural and normal for humans to do, and that's not necessarily moving constantly. And yet I would argue that there is a certain evolutionary drive to be moving for long periods of time as well. But for me, it's reminding myself why I chose to be there. And it's that moment. It's not to avoid that moment and to get to the other side as quickly as possible. It's to live in that moment and see, test myself, see how I do. If it wasn't for that moment, I don't think I would enjoy the experience as much, or at least it wouldn't be as rewarding in hindsight. So when that moment comes up, I don't go, oh damn, it's getting hard again. I go, okay, Okay, we're there. This is that moment I was waiting for, that I was anticipating, that inevitably was gonna happen. Now what you got? You know, what are you gonna do? And I'll sometimes talk to myself even out loud. Sometimes I get a little mad at myself if I feel myself getting complacent or lazy or wanting to quit. I'll actually like kind of get mad at myself and talk to myself on the trail and be like, this is it. This is what you signed up for. Come on, let's show, show me what you got. You know, this is the moment.

It.

There's a second piece of that though, which is what happened at Mammoth, where I realized it was a similar experience to my finish at Moab, which is this— something happens, and not everybody has this experience, but I always do at the last 10, sometimes 20 miles of a long race. And it's a combination of adrenaline, endorphins, dopamine, just everything coming together. I think being able to smell the barn, where I know deep down this is almost over over, and all I have to do is push to the finish, and everything else starts to melt away, and I start to really enjoy myself. And I often start to run my fastest miles in that last 10 miles, 20 miles, whatever it is, and all the discomfort of the previous days slips away. And I've realized that that's actually why I do these races. It's for the feeling that I get in that final 10 miles of what feels like a sprint. Sometimes it's not, but it feels like a sprint where it feels like anything is possible, where it feels like I could run forever. The first 200 or so miles, the first 190, is the price of admission for that final 10 miles, for that feeling. I can't skip it. I've got to push. I've got to go through it. But I realize I do the first 190 to have that feeling of— that's that feeling that anything, anything is possible in that final 10 miles. And there's just no cheating that or shortcutting it.

I love how you're going for a 190-mile warm-up. Yeah, there is something to be said to get to a point in a race when you can tell yourself, this is it, this is that moment. And in a marathon, I often think that's around mile 20 where people are like, this is where you see most people either slow down or hitting the wall or getting getting into a challenging spot. But if you can find creative ways through pacing, through nutrition, through hydration, and with your mindset and adjusting things, when you can work through that, there's something so powerful when you come out the other end. And the whole part of hitting a tough spot and thinking there's no way that I can recover from this and overcoming that And then being able to run again and having like a second wind or during an ultra, even like having a third or fourth, like one of those highs and lows, that part, that feeling that you literally surprised yourself that you were able to overcome that. And I think that's kind of that period that you describe of why you do it, where you're testing yourself and you find a way to work through that. And I think it makes you show up in other parts of your life differently as well when a challenge comes up, because you know you can do hard things at that point.

We talk a lot about type 2 fun, I think mostly in trail running, because often— or skiing. I mean, some of these sort of more backcountry things where you can get into precarious situations that are harder to get yourself out of, and you have no choice but to push through. And type 2 fun is fun that is fun more in hindsight than it is in the moment. It's rewarding. Type 2 fun, I often, sometimes when we get into a situation where we're maybe a little lost in the trail or something happens that I've been in that situation enough where I can already see we're okay, we're gonna get through this. And I like to joke, this is the story you're gonna tell at a dinner party in a month. You know what I mean? This is the story that you're gonna laugh about. It's gonna be fun in hindsight. And that's type 2 fun. And for me, that's the most, that's the best fun. 'Cause those are the memories that stay with you. And that's hard-earned fun. Type 1, I mean, sure, that's resort skiing, that's going on a roller coaster, that's easy. But Type 2 fun is a little bit harder earned.

I even think for— there's quite a few people listening to this podcast that run road races, half marathon, marathons, and ultras as well. But I think even for many people, a marathon or initially the first few marathons are like a Type 2 fun too. Sure. Quite a few people are actually quite miserable. But I think it is the mindset that makes a huge difference over here when you either, like, want to work with the challenges versus the complaining part. I think one of the biggest things— I even wrote it on my hand during one of my earlier races— is whatever you do, do not complain. And like, I think it's just about switching your mindset. Because once you start complaining, you come in this negative self-pity, like victim mentality versus indeed, like you were saying, I chose to do this. I'm here because there is some type of fun in this, even though in that moment it might be challenging, like the leading up to it for months of consistent training. And then even the feeling afterwards, there's a lot through that. And some people can enjoy every minute of a race day experience and some people enjoy a lot less of it. But finding that and working through that is is a big one for sure.

I'm sure a lot of roadrunners can relate to that feeling as well of, you know, like you said, you hit mile 20 and that's largely, I think, a physiological thing. You've depleted your glycogen stores, you've hit the wall. That's a very physiological— there's a reason for that, right? But you do push through, and I'm sure most people have the same feeling of that final 200 meters. You come around the corner, you see the finish line, of a 10K, of a marathon, half marathon, whatever it is, and you just get this surge of adrenaline and you get tears in your eyes and you just sprint for that finish and then you collapse. But that 200 meters, that feeling, if you think about that, that's just when it comes to ultras, that's just stretched out sometimes over miles and hours, but it's the exact same thing as that last 2% of the event where You know, again, you can see the finish line, your body just leaves it all out there. And I think there's a physiological reason to this. I, from an evolutionary standpoint, I, it's believed that we were persistence hunters, right? We would chase down animals for days at a time, sometimes at a moderate to slow pace, and we'd wear that animal down. And we have the benefit that we can sweat, whereas animals have to stop and pant. They can't— most animals can't sweat. And so eventually we would cause the animal to be so exhausted that they have to stop. And after, again, maybe it's 60 hours of chasing that animal, we would go in for the final kill. We'd sprint after that animal for a mile, 5 miles, 10 miles, 200 meters, whatever it is, and we'd go in for that kill. And I think that's the exact same thing with some of these events where our body is just going, oh, are we almost at the end of the persistence hunt? Is this where we're going in for the kill? It's a very evolutionary thing. Maybe I'm looking too much into it, but to me that almost feels like I think there's something in our DNA. There's something driving us to having that feeling at the end, that surge of adrenaline, going in for the kill, going for the finish line of a race.

When this world is coming to an end, I definitely know who I want to surround myself with if we have to outrun animals to gather food.

It'd be you and me out there there were spears. That's right.

Let's talk about Badwater because that was a very special experience. So for those listening who are not that familiar with Badwater, it is a 135-mile race through one of the hottest places on Earth. And you do a lot of climbing as well as basically running through the desert. And yes, you can have a support vehicle, that you can stop with every few miles and they can park on the side of the road and they can cool you down as a runner. But you're literally running through the hottest part of Earth at the hottest time of the year with temperatures reaching whatever it is, 120 Fahrenheit, whatever it is, 50 Celsius or something. What in the world made you want to sign up for that race? And let's talk about some of your highs and lows from that race.

Yeah, 135 miles, hottest place on the planet, hottest time of the year, but it's a very controlled environment. There are no aid stations. You're required to have crew, and that crew is with you the entire time, stopping every couple of miles. You can have a medic, and we did have a doctor with us. They recommend you do. On paper, it's one of the riskiest places in the world, but in practice, it's, um, all those risks are mitigated perfectly. So for me, again, it was that story of I have so many tools in my toolbox. Let's throw it, let's throw it all at this race. Let's use data, let's use testing. I got my sweat tested. I had exact targets for, I know, I know how much I need to drink, how much sodium I need to take with that, how many calories per hour I'm going for, how many, how many grams per hour I can process. I mean, we had all the data. I have all the experience I, I should need for that race. And so the, the question was, that I was asking was, can I throw science and experience and all that to tame, to tackle what is said to be one of the toughest ultra marathons in the world? Now, I think what I came out of that realizing was there are some things that can't be measured. There are some data points that are hard to analyze. There's some parts of this sport that are a little bit harder to quantify. And I think that's where I may have hit some of those limits. And it wasn't a limit in terms of distance, it was something else. It was, that was one of the hardest things I've ever done for sure. I did not finish with that feeling I normally have at the end, which was disappointing for me. That felt like a failure to me that I didn't have a strong final 10 miles. It was quite the opposite actually, or I've kind of very much faded towards the end of the race. And yet the first 100 miles of that race was a 100-mile PB for me. I ran that in 21.5 hours. That was my fastest 100 miler ever. We were joking at the time. I was like, if only this was a 100-mile race and not 135 miles.

I will say the last 10 miles was a straight uphill to Mount Whitney. That's true. So that is a little bit of a tough finish too when you have 6,000, 7,000 foot of climbing.

That's true. And in fact, realistically, I was, they said on average people take 3.5 hours. I think we took 3 hours. I mean, by no means was I, I didn't get past at that point or anything like that. So exactly. But again, it was— I couldn't quite figure out what it was. There was something out there that I didn't achieve at that race for myself. And yet, when I had enough time in the rearview mirror to look back at that race, I see that failure, if you want to call it that, as a success in itself. Because it was the first time I think I pushed myself hard enough in those first 100 miles, given the conditions, to kind of blow to kind of, maybe I often feel like I leave something out there. I didn't leave anything out there this time. And I think that was a success in itself. So I was able to reframe that failure, quote unquote, into a success, into its own success, and to bring that experience into then Mammoth 200, which I raced a few months later, not to jump back and forth too much there, but to realize, yeah, what I really want out there is that feeling that comes at the end of a race if you pace it right. And I got that at Mammoth. The thing that I missed at Badwater. So to me, those were— Badwater was the first half of the story of my 2025 season that was perfectly bookended with Mammoth, where I was able to have that feeling come to fruition. But yeah, again, Badwater for me, that was the price of entry this year. And we learned a lot. We learned a lot of that race.

One of the highlights for me, so just to, to loop the listener in here, We started the race at night. We had a start time of, I think it was 9:00 or 10:00 at night.

10:00. Yeah.

And so from there on, 10:00 at night, you start. So we had been awake during the day.

We got— mistake number one.

We were in the car. We start at night. Yeah. And literally what we do is there's a long road that basically goes all the way to where we're going to finish. And you are running and we are in a support vehicle with myself, with your partner Audrey, with the doctor and with the filmer. And so we're there meeting up with you every 2, 3 miles, cooling you down, giving you something to eat or hydrate or whatever you wanted. And then we'll do the same thing again. It was like a 30 to 45-second pit stop in and out. Very efficient. And that would happen frequently until eventually you want to like take a little bit of— no, there wasn't even any naps or anything. Like the entire time we just kind of kept going and it started getting a little bit cooler at night. But then during the day it started getting really, really hot again. So one of the main things with some of these races is the sleep deprivation, not just for the runner alone, But even for me as a crew member and a pacer, one of the first things that I heard is don't get yourself in trouble as a pacer or a crew member that you're going to become a liability to the crew because it is quite hard on the body and on the mind. As in, like, you're sleep deprived. It is extremely hot. Yes, you're in an air-conditioned van, but you're going in and out the whole time and you're, I think, paced you for about 40 miles throughout some of those sections as well. And so I was nervous going into it and I was only doing like 1/3 or 1/4 of the distance that you were doing. But then just seeing you working through that, I think heat cannot be underestimated. As much heat training as you can do, heat just tires you out a lot. And so that's like a whole nother element. But one of the key things that I remember after we had gone through Like we started at night, we went through the whole day, we're going into another night. And so we had all been awake for however many hours. And yes, we could take little naps of a few minutes in the car while you were running nonstop. We got to the town of Bishop and we were all super sleep deprived while you were still running over there. And we decided to like order some pizzas, have them in the hotel. We needed a bit of a reset. Because I think this was one of your lowest points that you had come in where it was like, oh, we still have to go through the town and we still have to go all the way up to Mount Whitney portal. Can you talk to me about what some of those resets are? Because you, you have those sometimes throughout a race where you need to take inventory of what's going on. And I think this might be helpful for some of those listening when you hit a low spot, kind of how you can rely on your crew, how you and do some self-talk? And talk me through that.

What I mean, physically speaking, sometimes closing your eyes for a minute or two. You know, this is something I did a lot at Mammoth, having little dirt naps. And I'm talking literally, I would find a comfortable bush that looks like I could lie down in it. I'd set my alarm for 2 minutes. I would close my eyes. I would actually sleep, and then I'd wake up and keep moving. And that reset of only 2 minutes It's really about close, just having a chance to close your eyes and rest your brain because you're so active in these races, thinking and looking and focusing on things and moving, and your brain never has a chance to take a rest and shut down. And I think we take that for granted that we're able to do that for hopefully 8 hours a night. So for me, sometimes those little resets are all I need. And in fact, I've had moments, and I've had to warn pacers about this in races that I've had where I've said, you know, I might stop all of a sudden, bend over my poles, and just close my eyes for 10 seconds and then keep going. Don't worry, I'm fine. I just need to close my eyes for 10 seconds and let my brain just kind of reboot. There's another aspect though to this as well, which is I think what we encountered at Badwater, which was as a team, we needed to reset and we needed to recalibrate. We had a very aggressive A goal going into that race of 24 to 25 hours, a still somewhat aggressive B goal of sub-30 hours, and it became pretty clear at one point that we were not going to hit that B goal. And I hadn't really set a C goal. I normally don't need one. I'm normally pretty good at hitting my A goal, if not then my B goal. Usually I exceed my A Again, usually I'm— I don't set aggressive enough goals. That happened to me at Moab, for example. Um, Mammoth 200, again, I, I set an A goal of 58 hours. I came 5 minutes under that. I mean, it's, you know, I should be setting more aggressive A goals and swinging for the fences at these events. So we did that at Badwater, and when we— when it became clear we were going to miss that, first of all, our planning got a little bit screwed up, and we were— we started getting worried about supplies. We were running out of food, ice, water, and there's very limited resupply points on that course. So I think even our planning might have been a little too rigid because we were planning based on that A and B and not a C goal. And I think mentally we started to question like, well, what does this mean? Can I even finish? When in reality I was still in 25th place. I mean, we had tons of time. We had a whole— I finished with a 16-hour buffer, you know, but it's in the moment it felt like, like everything was falling apart. And I think that's where maybe something we learned there was it's great having a really well-planned, well-oiled thing that when it's working, when you're just checking those, hitting those box, checking those boxes, hitting those milestones, man, you can do well in some of these events. But I think we see this with a lot of the elite runners as well. When things fall off the rails, that's when they tend to drop. Because their plan was to finish on the podium or not finish at all. They don't have a plan for finishing 25th, you know, in these events, the elite runners. And I think as well, that's where we had to recalibrate and go, what would it mean to have a C? What would the C goal be? How do we execute the C goal? What does that look like in practice? What pacing do we need? How— what do we need for supplies? Wait, now we're into the next day again. We thought we'd be finishing middle of the night. So we as a team had to recalibrate and replan. And I think that's where I realized Yes, I want to have more aggressive goals, but I think also we need to talk about what is the worst-case scenario, not just the best-case scenario in these events, and make sure everybody's mentally prepared for that.

Yeah. Well, eating a pizza at whatever, 3 in the morning in the hotel lobby where everyone was completely delirious out of their mind. I remember having a photo or a video shot on my phone at some point from some of that.

Yeah.

And then still seeing you get up and I was going to like pace that last bit with you or like the last whatever. You already took off. You're literally like you're ready to go again. And I was so amazed to see like we came in at a low. You had some food in you and like you were ready to go again. And then we got out of there and yes, it was an uphill climb and I was definitely working through different elements to get to the finish line there. But just seeing you get a second round, a third round, a fourth round of wind and keep moving. And then this is the interesting thing, I think, about a race like Badwater, where when you go to some of these world major marathons, you have crowds of support, right? You literally have 5 rows of people deep at the finish line, and it's like all this noise. And here you come up like this this Mount Whitney portal road and there's like 3 people standing at the side of the road and there's like, it's such a different experience. It's not like the grandioso, but you end up finishing there together with your crew. And I think it's not until you pass that finish line that you realize like, okay, you actually did it kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you, I mean, that getting up from the nap and just getting moving, I mean, I didn't have to think about that. I've done that hundreds of times in these events. I mean, that's where the experience comes in. My first 200-miler, Tour des Géants, it's in the Alps, and you're doing 3 Everests throughout that race. It's a lot of climbing, very long. I mean, that race took me over 100 hours to finish. I mean, that was a very long event, and I finished in the first top 10%. So people are out there for up to 150 hours. The thing you learn is being able to get up when you're in a delirious state, you're stiff, you're sore, just getting moving. And you need to get moving and you'll start to feel better, right? So that's just what you do. And then you start to loosen up. If you're sitting there waiting until you feel good enough to run again, you're gonna be wasting a lot of time. So I think that's the resilience you learn, it's not even just troubleshooting, it's just learning to push through tough moments comes with experience. And I think that's the part that's transferable maybe to everyday life, right? So the more you do these hard things, the more you're able to push through and troubleshoot. You can take those lessons with you. Maybe not the tactical lessons, like blister care doesn't necessarily apply to our everyday life, but I think just mentally you're able to kind of get up and try again.. And you can— that resilience is definitely, I think, a character-building thing and something that you can carry with you to business, to relationships, to whatever the other challenges you might face.

This was my first time going through 2 nights of no sleep, and I cannot recommend it. And seeing you, like, you have more experience with that. Like, yeah, you were able to get up and go, and I was like half about to get into a coma because I was starting to get comfortable after the pizza. However, do you ever have any concerns health-wise with this stuff? Because it can't be healthy for you. Like, like how many of these do you want to keep doing? And is this something that at some point you're saying, like, yeah, you've, you've done X amount of races. What's next after this? Like, does it only become longer? Do you want to— because now you started doing several things that I think are super cool too. Like, you're guiding people on different mountain adventures, you're doing like hiking trips, you're doing running trips. Like, tell me a bit more about how you think about all that.

I do think the sleep deprivation is the— well, for me, it's the biggest challenge. There are some athletes who can go for days on very little sleep or no sleep. For me, that is the biggest challenge, and it's not getting any easier with experience. In fact, I feel like it might be getting harder with age where I'm having a harder time going more than 40 hours without a nap. And that nap might only be 25 minutes and then I can push through another 12 hours. But still, in some of these very competitive races, that puts me at a disadvantage where the difference between first, second, and third might be a matter of minutes at this point now, or 15, 20 minutes. So that one nap can make all the difference. So that's a challenge that doesn't go away. Having said that, you have time in these long events to take longer naps. I mean, you don't need to be racing for that those top positions, you can take longer naps. So that's something to be said for that. But either way, you're never sleeping as much as your body needs. And I think that's— I don't think we quite understand maybe all the negative effects of sleep deprivation. It's a hard thing to study for ethical reasons, for safety reasons. It's a hard thing to study on a large scale. So I do think sleep deprivation is maybe something that should be done in moderation. That's why for me, I would never run more than one 200-mile race in a season. A lot of people do, but for me, I don't think I would. I had a doctor years ago when I first started doing these events who made me promise that I wouldn't do another 200-miler, and so I had to find a new doctor, of course. So yes, that is a challenge, and that's where now I think long-term, I don't see doing more and more of these. I see doing less of these kind of big events, and I enjoy maybe stage racing, or even better is doing some of these things as multi-day fast packs. I mean, I talk a lot about UTMB as a big trail race. It could be considered the Super Bowl of trail running, beautiful course. It runs basically on the Tour de Mont Blanc with a few deviations, but you can also just go and fast pack hut to hut, run hut to hut, the Tour de Mont Blanc. I find that to be a way more rewarding experience. You see it all during the day. You get to eat incredible food and drink coffee and desserts, and you're not rushing through all this stuff. So there are other ways to get similar experiences in the mountains, maybe in a less competitive environment, and in a way that's much healthier and more sustainable. And that is something that I would see— I am slowly shifting towards. But I do love the idea of pushing myself physically and mentally to the brink, to that edge, again, in a controlled environment where if something was to happen, somebody's got my back. You know, there's something about that. And I still haven't found the answer to the question of how far is too far?

How far can I go? Amazing. That's exciting. What advice do you have here in closing for those listening wanting to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete?

I think it's just to find what drives you. I mean, again, I mentioned I realized I was getting diminishing returns and I could see I hadn't quite lost it yet, but I could see that I would lose eventually my motivation when it came to, say, the marathon, chasing 2, 3 minutes here and there. If that drives you, great. If it's not, if you're losing motivation because of that, then find something else that can drive you. Community, it might be just that you wanna hang out with your friends and all your friends are runners now because you've been running for so long, and that tends to happen. A community is a great way to stay motivated. Or again, it might be adventure in the mountains or being alone in the mountains. I mean, that's fine too. Maybe it's— maybe community isn't for you, but you want to just get out there and, and be in nature. I think it's just important to define, to find that and define it for yourself. It is a little bit different for everybody. I think that's where variety is important. Try different things, try different distances, try trail if you're a road runner. Trail runners, do the odd road race, you know, keep it, mix it up, keep it, you know, there's so many new events these days. There's Travel as well. Some people love to combine— I love to combine travel and trail running. I love running in a new place. It's a great way to see a new town, a new environment, a new mountain range. So for me, we love to travel through the lens of trail running. So I think it's just really important to define success for yourself. And that's, I think we, you know, we try to apply this generalized version of success, Boston qualifiers. I think that can be different for everybody.

I think the traveling and running combination is awesome. I used to travel a lot and use my skateboard to explore new cities and new areas, and that transitioned over the years to running, where you come to a new city and you just put on your shoes and you go run, or you explore new trails. And I think it's a wonderful way to get around.

I mean, I could see as a skateboarder going to a place because it's a good place to skate and they have a good skate park. And it's the same thing. It gives me, I mean, I think some people who don't have a thing when they travel, whether it's a love of food or photography or art, maybe you like going to museums or art gallery, I think some of those people don't tend to enjoy the travel as much, I think, because they don't have a lens to see it with. I think having a perspective, I mean, you could imagine going to the same city as somebody else and having a completely different experience because again, maybe you spend the entire week week at the best museums in the world that the city might have, whereas I'm out in the mountains because they have some of the best trail running in the world. So having, I think, a perspective and a lens to see the world through, I think, can make those experiences quite rewarding as well.

So totally. And it's a great way to meet the locals as well when it's through, through their local running groups or whatnot.

So yeah, exactly.

Jeff, where can people find more about you?

Well, my YouTube channel is probably the best way. So if you Jeff Peltier on, on YouTube. I have a film coming up from Badwater. We're recording this mid-January, hopefully late January, early February. That film's gonna be, gonna be out and that'll be featuring Floris as well.

And it's gonna be a fun one. Absolutely. Looking forward to some more trail miles with you soon. Next time you're in LA or I'm in the Vancouver area.

Definitely. And if I can ever return the favor and pace you in an ultra, then I'll be there.

I can't wait. All right, thanks so much, Jeff.

Have a good one.

Thanks, Floris. Jeff is such a beast of an athlete, and I really enjoyed watching him firsthand at some of these races like Badwater 135 and Mammoth 200, just to see what an athlete like that goes through mentally, physically, and work through some of these challenges. Would love to hear from you. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this episode? Please let me know in the comments below. My new book Running Breakthroughs is available on my website florisgierman.com as limited signed copies, and you can find it on Amazon in your country and other bookstores as well. It is really a compilation of 10 years of podcast lessons from the elite athletes, recreational runners, and the experts Thanks so much for all of the positive feedback I've received about the book so far. Next week, another podcast episode about mindset, stress management, and some really cool techniques to calm the nervous system. Can't wait to share that with you. Have fun out there on your runs. Bye now.