#123: Why Most Runners Quit Too Early (Not What You Think) | Kerry Ward

I watched Kerry Ward say something to a friend who was falling apart, and it absolutely saved him. I want you to hear it in his own words.

This moment is what you paid your money for. This moment is what got you to this place. You are wading into the waters of growth fully. So you've got to embrace the lows, embrace it fully, experience it, and then move past it.

Kerry Ward has worked with over 150,000 people on the psychology of change. He has run every distance from 5K to some of the most brutal ultras on Earth.

Like, hey, get out the door. As soon as you're out the door, I'm saying 50% of your work is done. You've just— you're out the door.

And this conversation is going to change the way you think about every run you ever wanted to quit.

How do you keep going? You just keep going.

Whether you're training for your first 5K, marathon, or ultra, this conversation will stick with you. One of the biggest mistakes that I see runners make is that they're focusing on their training, but they somewhat ignore the hydration part. Hydration isn't just about drinking more water. It is also taking in the right balance of electrolytes, so potassium, magnesium, and sodium. That's why I've been using Element for years now. It really is part of my routine. And recently I've been using the 12-ounce new sparkling cans, which I really like for the in-between period. And for me, that's really after a run or in the early afternoon when the energy dips, or even just working at my desk. Instead of grabbing a coffee, I just grab a can of LMNT. The new cans come in flavors like black cherry salt, lemonade salt, orange salt, and pineapple salt. Each of the cans have 500 milligrams of sodium plus potassium and magnesium so that you're actually replacing what you lose through sweat without sugar or junk ingredients. If you want to try it, go to drinklmnt.com/flow and you will get a free sample pack with your order. That's a great way to test it and see how you feel. Our new running coaching program is live now. You can get a free 7-day trial at pbprogram.com. Really cool to see all the new members roll in from around the world. Also, my new book Running Breakthroughs is available worldwide now as audiobook, as printed book, and as ebook. You can find out links through florisgierman.com or you can find it on Amazon. Hope you enjoy my conversation with Kerry Ward. Kerry.

Floris.

That was a wonderful morning run we had.

It was good. Good to get out. It's always good to get out with a friend.

Exactly.

It makes it way easier, everything.

Totally. So Kerry, you've worked with more than 150,000 people to initiate some type of change. When you look at recreational runners, what is one thing that you often see is holding them back? And in what sort of way have you been able to work through some of that change?

People do things that they enjoy. And sometimes running is not enjoyable. It's raining, it's hot, you've got a blister, something happens. People can get bogged down in the small things. Oh, it's not a perfect day. Oh, I don't have my shorts on. I've got some reason that I can't go out and do this thing. And for me, I think one thing that I've done well working either through videos or working with people who are interested in initiating some type of change is making it such that it doesn't seem overwhelming. Like, hey, get out the door. As soon as you're out the door, I'm saying 50% of your work is done. You're out the door. Along the way, you encounter an obstacle. Oh my, are you going to give up or are you going to go, wow, that's an interesting obstacle. Here's something, it's a little bit of an opportunity. So I think recreational runners can either potentially try and avoid things, which is not necessarily going to serve them in the long run to getting to the next level if you just avoid, avoid, avoid. But relishing both the obstacles and the opportunities that pop up. So I'm good at getting out the door, saying yes to things. One of my mantras is say yes. Someone invites me on a run, yeah, let's go. I'm good with that. And vice versa, if I say, hey, you wanna come out on a run? And I run a lot, so some people are a little intimidated for whatever reason. And I'll try and make it so that it's easy as, like, I'm not attached to any pace, I'm not attached to any time, we can walk the whole thing, I don't care. It's just getting out and doing something. So I think for a recreational runner, it's starting to form some of those habits where getting out is something that you welcome. It's part of the process, it's part of your practice. I'm not a formal meditator per se, but running very much is a practice. And it's a practice I think that benefits most people who do it. And for me, it's a bit of a practice. You just focus in on breathing, you focus in on rhythm, cadence, focus in on seeing what your body does, just observing. Might be in a little distress and then getting over that distress. So you know in the future, hey, that's something I can deal with. I don't know if that's maybe more of an answer.

Yeah, no, it is. And I think there's quite a few people who might indeed be intimidated by going on a run. For some people, it's very joyous and like they go out and they look forward to going for it. And whereas for other people, whether the circumstances are indeed it's a hot day, it's a cold day, it's raining, whatever that might be. And there's that internal dialogue happening. And you and I have talked about that internal dialogue quite a bit. Meaning the first time you and I met was at Cocodona, the first year of Cocodona, which is a 250-mile race in Arizona. And you and Wes Plate, one of our mutual friends, he was running it as well. And yeah, we saw each other through the night and it was a multi-day race and we saw each other several times. And whatever distance you're running, whether you're running a 250-mile race or you're running your first 5K or a half marathon or marathon, you're going to notice at some point there's certain high parts and there's certain low parts.

Yes.

Do you have any thoughts on how you can best navigate some of these low points when you encounter that on race day?

This may sound funny, but the low points, that's special. And the longer the run, the more obvious it is. But even on short runs, as you say, when I first get out and I first start going, going up the hill or going on the run, and I notice myself, I'm getting out of breath. Oh my God, I'm already tired and I can still see the car for gosh sakes. I'm tired. And, but after a while you settle in. So one of the things that I talk about to groups sometimes is there will be high points and low points. Physically, I'm feeling great. Physically, I'm feeling terrible. There will be high points and low points in your energy level. Like in the long run, whether you have enough sleep or not, hey, the sun comes up, so all of a sudden you feel better. There are also the actual peaks and valleys, like your thing. You actually have to go up and then you have to go down. So there's these mental peaks and valleys, there's the energetic peaks and valleys. And the thing for me that makes a big difference is I've done it enough to know now that if I'm in a valley, I'm at some point gonna be okay in the future. One of the first long races I did was the Canadian Death Race. It features 125 kilometers and it's a big one sponsored by North Face. There are several thousand people. I made some poor fueling choices and just took too much in at some point. So I'm going up this Mount Hamel or something like that. I'm going up, up, up, up and I'm feeling horrible. And I made some miscalculations at the aid station. I thought I had enough water. I didn't have enough water. I can't leave until I get to the next station. And I've got to climb the entire mountain first. And I'm out of water. And I've thrown up several times on the way up. Part of me is thinking, all right, I gotta— I can't— I have to get to the next station. I can't just sit down on the mountain and just curl up in a ball. I come across a spring. And I think that actually looks like a spring at the side. I think I'm just gonna— I'm thirsty enough that I'm gonna take a chance. Drink from the spring. So I drink some of the spring water. So I've got water. Then I get to the top and part of me has checked out. Like, yeah, this is just— I can't, I can't. I had to finish it within a certain time because I had to fly away at a certain time as well. So I get to the top, I've thrown up all my calories, I've ran out of water, I've had some more, but then there's a downhill. I'm like, well, the next one's down the hill, so at least I can go down the hill. And running down, I like running downhill.

Same.

I like grinding uphill and running downhill. And I just start having fun going down the hill. And by the time I got to the bottom, I'm clicked back in. I've done that now enough times that I know if I run out of something during a session, I will probably have another peak that will buoy me up. And it might be, oh, I see some, you know, a beautiful picture or a beautiful terrain. I think, oh my gosh. Or maybe you see an animal. There's a, you know, there's a moose. Here's a good one. Going through, Mike McKnight was attempting the FKT on the Colorado Trail. And I ended up doing—

And for those listening who don't know what FKT is, it's fastest known time. So you wanna be the first person who sets the fastest time on that segment, right?

Yes. It's beyond me to set that, but it's within his wheelhouse to set, and he will need people on occasion to run with him. So I ended up doing about 100 miles with him. Fourth day in, we're marching along in the dark. I'm in front of him, and I can tell he's just like, he's almost completely oblivious, almost unconscious, but moving. And all of a sudden we hear this racket, like just stuff splashing. And both of us just immediately, it's like, what in the heck was that? And we look around, we look around, and not far off the trail is this huge bull moose that we have upset in the middle of the night.

Oh boy.

And we sort of have a quick conversation like, hey, I think that's a big moose. Yeah. Let's just keep going. Maybe we'll pick it up a little and go a little faster. And then we were awake. We're great. And like, that's a big snap out of it. But the, how do you keep going? You just keep going. And then the more times you've gone over an obstacle or gone through that hard thing, the easier it becomes.

That part, I think the experience or even surrounding yourself with people who have done it that you can lean on, I see that all the time because the first time I ever hit a wall in a marathon at like mile whatever it was, 18, 19. Yeah, the Long Beach Marathon. I literally thought I was going to die. And like, your whole legs become noodles and you're like begging a spectator for like a Gatorade. And yeah, eventually you get some energy again and you keep going. However, like that part when you've never gone through that, you would throw in the towel. Or like you might almost be like, I can't believe this. But having heard from people that this is something that could happen.

Yeah.

And there are some ways that you can work through it. Yeah. It might not be your, your best race you're ever going to run, but you're finding a way to keep moving forward. So I think that part, belief, plays a huge role there.

Being relentless to some degree. Like, I know it's just keep moving forward. I did the same thing on an LA marathon, I think like '21. And at this point, there wasn't, people weren't very sophisticated when it came to fueling and gel. There were no gels that you're getting at aid stations. Like maybe you get part of a banana or something, or who knows? And I didn't know what I was doing anyway. I was just running for fun. But I got to the point where my craving for some freaking candy or something was so intense. And I had a friend who was riding a bicycle along the course to kind of see where I was at a couple places. And I saw him like, David, you have to get me candy right now. And the intensity was like, oh my God, okay, I better get him some candy.

He's gonna die if not.

Exactly, exactly. And he came back with some, which gave me some immediate carbo, some sugar, and that, you know, I could start running again by the end. But yeah, if you don't think like there's, light at the end of the tunnel. It's like we got to—

you and I have previously connected on a few scientific studies on this topic as well. And I just want to talk about this one study in particular. In 1957, a study by Hopkins where they had a pretty brutal experiment with a bucket and they put rats in it with water and they basically tried to see how long would these rats try to fight to live, right?

Yeah.

And so within 10 minutes of these rats not being able to escape and just drowning in a bucket, basically within 10 minutes they gave up. Until the moment, like when they were giving up, like someone would actually lift them up and would basically save them and then just put them back in again. The ones that were saved that way were able to last instead of 10 minutes, they were able to last the second round 60 hours, 240x output based on the mindset of there is a way out of this potentially. And this is what I feel is happening sometimes with runners as well, where we are able to make a decision at some point in a race and it is that internal voice. But can you talk a little bit more about how you navigate that internal voice? Or what advice you have even for those listening over here to help them navigate that?

The rat interesting study is really unique in some ways because that's as extreme as you can get. You're going to die unless you see some hope. And a rat brain is maybe 1 or 2 notches higher than an ultra runner's brain. I'll give an ultra runner maybe a little more credit than a rat to be able to navigate and to know that, hey, there is some hope. And on occasion, you're in a race and you get into one of those situations where things start stacking up. The first time I did, I was out on the Moab course the first year they ran it. There was a section and it was a section I wasn't really looking forward to. It's 26 miles, mostly on the road, just a dirt road. So a marathon, in the middle of the night on the road, and the temperature was 8 degrees. So my—

8 degrees Celsius or Fahrenheit?

Fahrenheit.

Fahrenheit. Yeah. So for those listening in Celsius, that's -10 or like— yeah.

So it was, uh, it was so cold that the hose in my bladder just froze solid. So I knew this wasn't going to be something I would enjoy very much, and I picked a strategy, which was essentially I went for the full nuclear option, which was I put my headphones in. I had some headphones and I listened to, and this is what I said, I listened to music just to keep me awake, keep me moving.

And was that what we were listening to, Iron Man?

Well, I actually put it on shuffle and because you don't know how long the song is, right? And I thought, okay, so for the length of the song, I'll be running. And then for the next song, I'll be power hiking. Then the next song, I'll be running. The next song, I'll be power hiking. So that locked me into something. And it's just like these rats. Okay, you're saved for a minute. I can walk for a song. And then you're put back in the bucket. Okay, now I'm going to run for a song. I cannot tell you, like, that part of the race, I passed more people than in any other part of the race just because I had that. And I think ultra runners or any runners really break things down by segment. It's overwhelming to first 10 whole K and then it's overwhelming to do a half marathon. Then it's overwhelming to do a marathon, then a 50 miler, 100K, whatever. So if you think, oh, I just need to get to the next place where I can, Hey, I'm going to see a pacer. Or suddenly someone comes up with you and you think, I'm going to be able to run with this person for a while. All these are little landmarks. I'm going to run to the next corner. I'm going to run for the next 20 minutes and then it'll be— If you break those things down and you have a series of little goals instead of just thinking, oh my God, I've got 120 more miles to run. Then it becomes manageable. And I think compartmentalizing runs, even like the run we did this morning. So I, you know, up, up, up, we're going up for the run. And, but at some point I know, hey, we get to turn around and we get to bleed off that elevation. We get to run downhill, which is great. So if you're always thinking about breaking it down into a series of smaller steps. I think there's a law called Fells' Law, which is really an interesting thing. And it says that a complex system, like the system it takes for someone to go out and complete an event like this, doesn't happen immediately. It's not an immediate thing. So any complex system that emerges is a byproduct of a series of failures and experimentations and adjustments. And then finally, It all comes together, but it doesn't just happen magically the first time. I think having faith again that you have to kind of work your way towards that is key in choosing bigger and bigger objectives. Because I've been around for a long time in the 200-miler category, when I go to a 200-mile race, I hear from quite a few people that, oh my word, I took in your video, I watched it several times, and that gave me a good sense for what I was dealing with out here. And now, you know, we're out here running together, which is, I think it's like—

And for those listening, this is kind of an interesting one. So Carey is one of the OG YouTubers. He has been doing these vlog-style videos for like, on Ultra Signup, your first 100K shows as 2008.

Yeah.

And then your YouTube channel goes back 17 years with a cat video. And then from there on, it's a whole bunch of running videos, right? But it's being there at the first Moab 200. It's being part of the first Bigfoot. It's part of like all of these different races, but it's done in a long-form format. So there's no, no fancy editing. It's literally you with a camera showing an inside look of what is it like. And I think that your average view time on your videos is more than an hour and some of your— your Kokodona video is a 7-hour video.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so, but I think it gives an inside real look perspective of the highs and the lows of what you're actually going through.

I first started to do— well, my YouTube even predates YouTube. I used to do videos for— I used to work for motorcycle magazines And we started strapping cameras onto our tanks and going out way before YouTube. And we would like bring down networks with the amount of traffic that would try and take these in. The YouTube thing is interesting because much like we were doing then, to me it's a way of— like my wife, my family are not going to come out on a trail with me and go for hundreds of miles. Not interested. And friends who are curious but not really willing to commit to doing something like that get a taste for what it's like. And some of it, I have to be honest, is a byproduct of me being unwilling to just edit stuff out and try and make it choppy and nice. I'm like, this is the story. Let's just edit it chronologically. Here it is. We'll trim the little things here and there, prime, try and provide some context. The other difference is I will usually not turn on the camera until there's something to say or to see or some sort of comment on what's happening in the present. And contrast that with many videos that show like the beautiful drone shot and the walking away from the camera. And it's just quiet. It's got some music maybe. I, I don't think I had music in any video for a really long time, but that's also a practical thing because you get a YouTube strike. You do this video— I remember one video, there was an Icelandic volcano that blew up and shut down traffic over Europe, air traffic. Eyjafjallajökull or something like that, that's what it's called. And so I wanted to go check this out, so I go up there and at some point to celebrate being at the top, I do a little victory dance and my phone is playing some music for 20 seconds. Strike, got that video.

Like, oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a whole nother, yeah. Quick break. This is important. Coach Floris Gierman here, and we just launched the Personal Best Running Club. If you've been watching these videos and you want to apply it to your training, this is where it's actually happening. You get structured heart-based training plans, live coaching with me and our team, and a community of runners all working towards their next breakthroughs. We also have daily discussion topics to keep you consistent and monthly accountability challenges so you actually follow through. Plus, you have monthly masterclass sessions with experts like Coach Scott Johnston, Laurens van Lingen, Dr. Phil Maffetone, Mark Gugazela, and much more. You can get a free 7-day trial and there's zero risk involved. Find out more info at pbprogram.com. There's a lot of others. pbprogram.com. Let's get back to the conversation. One of my absolute favorite moments of you during one of the races at a low point of fellow runner Wes Plate was when he was far into the Cocodona 250-mile race and at day 3 he had a low spot. And I want to just show that video and I want to talk through that a bit more because this was such a powerful few words that you told them there at this low point. So let's, let's take a look.

This is what I tell them. This moment is what you paid your money for. This moment is what got you to this place. This place is a sacred place where you are are right now. The only way you can get to this place is by doing something ridiculously difficult, challenging, and so on. You are wading into the waters of growth fully. So you've got to embrace the lows. The peaks and valleys are both literal and figurative. Figurative valleys valleys, you know you've done enough of these that it's going to go back on the upswing at some point. And it might be that you have something good to drink, something jumps out the bushes and scares us, you see an amazing sunset, it might be the station is tremendous. Like the path projects. This right here, this quote-unquote low point, is what you paid your money for, my friend. So embrace it fully, experience it, get out and move past it. Yeah, I like that. You can go on.

That was beautiful.

See, that's why you need to speak these things. And normally when I'm feeling low, I don't bring the camera out because I don't know what to say. But thank you, Carrie.

I think that was a perfect example of realizing that these lows are part of the process, right? And I think too many times we're trying to focus just on being in a good spot. But when we do something really hard, this is what you're going to experience at some point. Can you elaborate a little bit more on your thoughts here and how that even works for shorter distances, like even not just on race day, but even on tough training days, I would say?

A necessary component of actually growing is always exploring boundaries. And boundaries are uncomfortable, meaning it might be that you are physically drained and you drain yourself again and again and again. Suddenly it's not so bad. Like, oh, I can handle this. You mentioned you are an enthusiastic cold plunger. It's not a fun thing to jump in right away, but eventually you think, I can handle this, I can get in and I can do that. Same with running. And the shorter distances, this definitely counts. If you want to increase your muscle or strength, you gotta shock your muscles to the point where they're stressed. And if you stress them enough times, then they say, hey, I've gotta react, I've gotta grow, I've gotta become stronger, I've gotta become bigger or whatever. It's the same with running. And long distance, like as Wes was talking about right there, To get that deep in a race and have doubts is natural. But if you pull out, if you say, "I'm done," you get to a point where to go back, you have to go through all that same thing again and then go beyond. So maybe it would just be better for this time, this moment, just to keep going forward. When you, it's a very profound place to be. Every mile farther that you go or every hour farther that you travel, it puts you into a place, you're peeling away layers until you're in, I called it a sacred state and it is a sacred state. When I'm doing an event like that and it takes 3 days to finish and I've slept very little and I'm continually putting out and just trying to make good choices and go up the mountain, down the mountain, stay cold, stay dry, stay whatever. You've gotten to a place that's just essence. It's so pure. Like going through a course during the night and all you, you might have the most tremendous landscape around you, but all you've got is this light punching a hole in the dark and you're following a flag and a trail. And all the things in the outside world kind of melt away and you have one singular focus. So there aren't very many times in life where you can get to such a stripped-down, pure state. And you also, whether you're the front runner or you're the, the last one to come in under the cutoff, you're gonna have a similar, potentially transformative experience. And that growth happens in those areas of uncertainty, in those areas where you've, I think we're 150, 170 miles in or something like that at that point outside of Sedona. And I know how long it's taken us to get there. And at that point you think, oh my gosh, I'm not having a good time. That's a choice. You can always decide that that's it. Or you can just say, oh my God, thank God I'm here. This is why I'm here. Because people don't get to do that unless they pay the price. And the price, is you have to do a hard thing and prevail through it and just keep pushing. And if you do that, then you have access to a place that is unique, which is why I think people like doing this kind of activity. They like going into an ultra event and experiencing something. I don't mind spending a couple thousand dollars to go out and do that because there's nothing else that gets you to that point. So I mean, longer it is, obviously the more extreme it is, but that same thing happens in shorter races.

And it happens in races, but it even happens sometimes in training. When I'm thinking back, for example, let's say I've done a period of low heart rate training and my pace perception is like, oh, I'm just running comfortable pace. And at some point I want to start adding some speed work. Typically those first few sessions of speed work, if you just go into some typical speed work, it might feel exceptionally challenging. Yeah, because your pace perception has changed, your effort levels have kind of adjusted. So sometimes I try to go out there, I try to hit certain splits if I want to like have certain race times or certain race goals or whatnot. And it's just not happening. And if that is the case, even the part of like, it's not— I either do it completely at this pace and I'm a success, or I quit and I fail. How about we're actually gentle and we're just adjusting our pace a little bit? Instead of having to run whatever speedwork at 7-minute miles, we just dial it back to like 8, 8:30-minute miles. And what surprises me time and time again, when you kind of approach it from that, let's be a bit gentle to myself, let's just keep finding a way forward. Then all of a sudden that pace becomes doable again.

Yeah.

And you're able to get some more wind, some more momentum, and eventually maybe after 30 minutes you'll be able to hit those paces or maybe not that time. And you just adjust to realize like, this is where I'm at currently. But I am still finishing that workout. I'm still finding ways to move through this versus I think that internal dialogue on being so harsh on ourself of like, you have to do this or it's not going to work, or like, I'm going to miss my time goal. And I think that's a really big part of this equation as well, how we navigate that internal dialogue.

I think my goal is to have a quality experience. And quality is different for different people. I'm not an elite, again, top, top level runner. So I'm probably not battling for a place on the podium in most races, unless it's a small race. And yet it's still important to me to go out and have a good experience. And if you have to reset your sights, as an example, I remember the Delirious 200 in Australia. I went out and I was training knowing that the season was different there, but also having done some research and figuring temperature-wise, it was gonna be decent. I was thinking like in Fahrenheit, oh, it's gonna be in the 70s. Which, fine, I can go out and run all day in the 70s. And so 23, 24 degrees, something like that Celsius. And I showed up and it was hot. It was, you know, high 80s, 90s and humid. And I, partway through the first day, another one of these experiences where Oh my God, I am just on that border of throwing up my calories and just starting to have a really bad time. And an ultra like that, I don't wanna throw up calories. I don't wanna then have to reingest them and lose my hydration and all that. So I ended up, even though I was somewhat near the front, not that many people in the race, and I thought to continue through this, I'm gonna have to back off a little bit and just power hike for a while. I remember going to the tops of— like, you'd come to the top of a sand embankment somewhere, and I would get just this little bit of wind, and I put my hand out and just try and soak this in just to cool off a little bit. And so my expected outcome and my actual outcome were a little bit at odds, but I tell you, I had some of the best connections with people. And I enjoyed that race tremendously, even though again, I didn't go, I didn't finish exactly as I had hoped to, but I got to the end of it. And again, for me and for I think most runners, especially recreational runners, whether you finish in the top 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, whatever, it almost is irrelevant. The goal is to get through the event and be able to get on top of some of the big challenges like I had with that particular race. So I think it shows character to me to get to a point where it's hard or you have to readjust and still make it a win because all the meaning attached to whatever outcome it is usually just comes from you, right? There's no grand expectation that you're gonna have to do something.

It's a lot of expectations on ourselves.

Hit this arbitrary time. It's great to have goals. It's great to hit them. I, you know, I've got goals. I'd like to, I like to hit certain times and I've got them. But if it gets away from me somehow, you said it very, very nicely. You be kind to yourself. Hey, great. You're gonna beat yourself up about that for a while. It's, you know, you're putting on some running shoes and going out and covering some distance. It really doesn't matter that much. No, it doesn't. What does matter is did you have a quality time? Did you make a positive impact on yourself, on the people around you, on the folks who you train with or your family or your children or something like that? Yes, that's to me, that's the most important part.

And that comes through. Like when I look at you at— I've seen you at a variety of different races and whether you were running it last year, we're at Mile 108 managing an aid station and you came through and it was late at night and we're cooking food. And I think you are so present and aware and I think this whole part of awareness, this topic of awareness has come up quite a few times in recent months because I think we live in a very distracted world right now. And being able to focus on what's happening here in this moment and actually soak it all in. And it's you and I sitting here right now. We're fully aware. Yeah, we're not thinking about like the past or the future, but it's And I think if you're able to do that in a race day environment, that brings a whole nother level of joy, but it also feels like you're more connected with body and mind at that point.

100%. I think that ability to just be present, there's a lot to be said for just pure gratitude. Aren't we lucky we got to go out and get on a trail and navigate part of the hills of Irvine today. Aren't we lucky? I will very intentionally during a run just appreciate for a moment.

How do you go about that though? Because there might be some people listening who are like, when I go out on a run, some days it's good, some days it's challenging. How do you still navigate that gratitude or that appreciation?

It's intentional. You just make sure that that's a part of the practice. Thank goodness. Boy, it was hot out today. Aren't we lucky we got some heat training? That's literally it. Oh my gosh, it's raining. I live in Vancouver, so I run in the rain all the time. And I think, this is glorious. You think, oh, I'll be all wet. Yeah. You will be all wet. Embrace it. Guess what? You get to do that. You can make it a game to avoid the puddles. And then at some point you just give in and you just start plowing through the puddles. And those are both fun games to play. And that's, again, taking advantage of the fact that you have control over how you feel about your run or your training. Could you be— disappointed. Could you be? Yeah, 100% you could. But also, it could be the best day ever. When I work with groups, corporate groups that I, that I work with, they come in and you can tell, they're like, oh my God, what are we doing here?

This is it.

I had to be here. I have to be here. And I get it. And most people who are what I'll call smart rats— we'll go back to rats here for a minute— I'm a smart rat. I'll take a look and try and figure out a shortcut or the way out or whatever. I'll be— and if I have a room full of what I would call smart rats, I love that because smart rats, if you say, hey, we got 2 hours here or 3 hours, how about we just agree to make it worthwhile? Are you open to that? And they say, actually, yeah, because what are you going to say? No, I'm not open to that. I'm like, well, great. So smart rat will say, "Yeah, I'm open to that." Great, so what do we have to do to make this worthwhile? What do we have to do to make this into something that you think, "That was a win"? Same thing with training. What do we have to do to get to a point where you think, "This is leading me somewhere that I want to go, that I'm intentionally putting out there to go?" So with a group of smart rats, skeptical rats, rats who think, "Oh my gosh," you know, You get them and you offer them an invitation and highlight the fact that, look, you can create your own outcome. You can have the best time in the world doing chores around the yard, and you can absolutely suffer through a trip to Disney World. It's supposed to be the dream trip. You can come back and complain about the parking and the lines and the— whatever. Or you can again decide that whatever you're doing is the best day ever. So that potential for creating a quality outcome exists at the beginning of every single run, every single run.

It is so— I love how you're formulating this. And it almost like earlier you mentioned like, hey, Floris, I know you're into cold exposure. And one of the ways like that have found it to be beneficial. At the beginning, it is indeed challenging. However, you can even for those listening who are maybe less familiar with it, you can ease into cold exposure. So for example, you just take a warm shower and you finish the last 15 seconds cold or like medium, and then the next day, 20 seconds, the next day, 30 seconds. You like David Goggins, like is talking about like love him or hate him, but he talks about callusing the mind, but you literally make it easier that in the next 2 weeks you're able to take a full cold shower and you're okay with it. And that part, I think if you can do that in different areas of life, that you're not so much affected by, by the cold, by the heat, and you just embrace it. So even when there's traffic, you're sitting in traffic and you're like, oh, you're actually finding joy in it and you almost celebrate like just having a moment to yourself. Versus like hating that part. And I— you're so spot on in what you mentioned earlier.

I think so. I came— I was in, uh, Europe recently, and on the way back there was a snowstorm on the East Coast, so flights canceled. And two flights cancel, and I, I had the third option, which was flying through Turkey, but it involved a layover that was 13 hours long. And you can suffer through it or you can make the best of it. And obviously I chose to make the best of it. That's fine. Once you sign up for it, go with it. Like, hey, you're here, make the best of it. The cold things— I went on a run with my Sunday runner group a week ago, 10 days ago, and we— Vancouver spring weather. It's a beautiful sunny day and we go up, but it's cold, quite cold. And we're starting at Cypress. We're going up to a place called St. Mark's, and there's quite a bit of climbing. It's kind of technical. I'm with several friends, and there's always a conversation about going for a swim on the way. And there's a stream and a body of water, and there's snow everywhere. But in the pond, there's a couple open patches. And we're talking about, you know, are we gonna go in or not? 'Cause there's no changing room. You pretty much gotta strip down and go in with whatever you're gonna go in with.

Very Canadian of you.

It was, but it does feel good. It feels good. Like you have a good, and you know, I've never regretted jumping in, even though it's a hassle and you jump. So I'm there with my friend Pat and Ellie. Ellie and I are, are in and we're considering going in. Some of the conversation is how deep is it that we're gonna go? And while we're deciding, Ellie points out, "Oh, there's a hole in the ice over there that's about this big. Why don't you go into that?" And she was first joking. And I said, "That's a great idea." Suddenly it looked fun and interesting. Like I get to go into this hole in the ice. And so I'm like, well, okay, yeah, I'm in. And then she's like, oh, I was just kidding, but you're actually going to go in there? I'm like, yeah, I am. That's great. I'd love to get a picture of the hole in the ice. I'll show it to you after, the picture of the hole in the ice. And Ellie's like, hey, I'm going to go in too. So we both go in and Pat, who never goes in, sees us and he says, Carrie, I need to go in as well. Will you take a picture of me? I'm like, sure, no problem. So all of us opted into the cold plunge, made the hard choice after reframing it from, oh my God, this would be horrible. Get in the water? Are you kidding me? It's in the snow and we're going to get in the water and come out and then I'll be all wet and go back to the car. It turned into— it was fun. We had a great time. We jumped in the water. It's just reframing how you think about it.

And it is so contagious, right?

Oh yeah.

People you surround yourself with truly make an impact on how you navigate challenging situations. Do you even see it as a challenging situation, right?

100%.

And I see that when I surrounded myself with like runners, with marathon runners, I was not the crazy one anymore. Or with people who have done even longer distances, it's like you're one of them instead of like thinking, oh, this. And I feel that that applies to many different, different groups. You surround yourself with a community of like-minded people and you'll be surprised how much energy you can get out of that.

For me personally, I like the social aspect of running. For me to go out and on a regular basis do a hard run, if I have people around me, it makes it so much more interesting for me. I do like running and listening to a book or a podcast or something like that. But if I have people to share the experience with and those people are generally positive, it makes it so much easier. So some of my best training has been with groups of people. The only time I've really done dedicated speed hill training where intervals is with a group of guys who I met in Canada who at lunch every day, go out and they run minimum kind of 10K to 15K at lunch. And, uh, I kept seeing them go by and it looks like they're having so much fun, so I just ran in with them because they ran by my house. I'm like, where are you guys coming from? Oh, we're coming from ICBC, and you should come out with us sometime. Like, when do you run? At this time every day. I've run thousands of miles with them since and had some of the best times. And doing that type of training where you're running uphill for 2 minutes straight and then coming back down, then running back uphill. It's hard to do on your own. But if you've got a few people, kind of varying levels, so someone a little faster, someone a little slower, and you've got a person there who's enthusiastic and a driver, like, "We're out here, we're gonna do it." I'm like, "Okay, that's it." Then suddenly you are doing these things. So speed training, speed training, that's where I got my fastest 10K. We had this sunrise, 54,000 people enter the Sun Run, Vancouver Sun Run, and teams can enter. And a team requires the top 10 scores of the top 10 runners, and they average those out. And we would, with thousands of teams, our team was etched on the cup a number of times. One of the only things where I've actually, quote unquote, won something, you know, But it was just because of the energy of these folks getting together. So like finding a running group, that is what you need to figure out. Like finding a group of like-minded fools and folly folk.

Absolutely. That's a big one. Carey, you challenged people in your TED Talk to set some ridiculous goals. For those recreational runners listening right now who might be thinking, I'm too old and too slow, like I'm not talented, what advice would you have for them?

I'm going to go at this slightly differently. I've been fortunate to spend some time with maybe one of the most legendary runners of all time, Ann Trason, 14-time winner of Western States. I consider her a friend, and she's had some health challenges, and she's a little older. Recently, she ended up entering the Six Day over New Year, and she's using a walker. For somebody who's a top-of-the-food-chain runner to make that adjustment is a little bit of a shift. And one of the things that she has done or does is shows up and commits to having fun with it. Her pace might not be what it was, and her goals shift. I think originally she had decided she was going to try and do 50K, and then that shifted to farther than 50K, and it shifted to farther and farther, and she just kept going. And then she did another one recently, the Jackpot, I think, the same one I think where Ashley Paulson set the 100K. Mile, and Anne was out there with her walker, and the goal was originally, "I'm going to hit 50 miles over a period of time." I think it was 2 days or something like that. And she ended up going 72 miles, half it dressed in a unicorn onesie or whatever. So you can choose your own fun in some sense, and I know that she got had value from, like, for her that has meaning. Like, she has other goals right now to go and do, to climb a mountain. It doesn't matter the time, but to climb a mountain down in South America. And she's gotten a different walker now that's— so older, shifting goalposts, shifting guidelines. And as long as you're able to complete within the cutoff, or even if you don't complete within the cutoff, just getting out there and covering some ground is a win. So how do I tell someone who's in a rut to do something different? I'll talk briefly about the Burning Man 50K. I do very few races more than once. I will go and do the race, and then maybe I'll come back and pace it. I've paced races that I've run before. But I usually don't go back and do another one because I love novelty. I love doing different things. So the Burning Man 50K is a race I've done more than 10 times, 12 times, something like that. And it's not really a race. The first year I did it, it was one of the first years they offered it. It's run by, call her Cherry Bomb, Shari Yanik. She's a friend of mine. Who has a camp called Pink Lightning. And I remember rolling up the first time, driving to Burning Man just to get there in time to get to this thing and rolling up at 5:00 AM and parking my car actually where they were starting it, getting out of the car and running 50K. And I've since done it in a number of different configurations. I've dressed up like a musketeer and brought swords and fought people. I've run it in half of a suit. I've run it literally blindfolded as a mouse. I dressed up as a mouse. I put a safety vest on. I had a cane. I stopped in the morning of— starts about 5:00 AM. I stopped when I was within earshot of the start where they were making announcements. I put a blindfold on and I kept the blindfold on from the beginning until the end of the race. And I had no plan of— This is, you know, I'm going to have this person take me this. I had none of that. I just had my eyes closed and I was just feeling my way until I got— I hit a thing, which actually was the speaker. And I figured, okay, that's where it is. But there's several hundred other people. So I found them and I just sort of grabbed someone's hand and I'm like, are you running the race? Yes, I am. I said, you know, do you have any particular goal or pace in mind that you're running? Oh, well, you know, I'm— And I found somebody who was not committed to, "I'm going to go out there and just hammer it from the get-go." And I said, "Can I just hold on to you while we're running so that I can—" And I had an agreement. I didn't want to keep someone the whole time, but I ended up running that from beginning to end. I think I had about 9 different people who guided me. In fact, one person, guided me for a good distance. And at some point at an aid station, someone asked me a question like, you know, what do you— what's the story here? Because they knew I'd run this before. And I said, well, I wanted to try something different. And the person I was running with, who was helping me, said, what, you're not actually blind? I'm like, no, I'm not. Oh, I had no idea. So you can make something different. The other one that stands out is, again, how do you do this? It's not a run that I care about having, like, I'm not going to try and finish at the start. I want to have a quality experience. So I decided I would dress as a Puritan, and I carried signs that were like, "I disapprove of this whole thing," that type of thing. "This is a bad idea." "The end is not near, ye fool." So I kept trading the sign. It's a loop. And I ran against traffic on the loop and heaped scorn on everyone coming the other way. And there'd be these people who'd get all excited 'cause they'd see me, see me a couple times. I'm still running dressed in my Puritan, you know, gold buckles on my things. And I'm running along and they'd be trying to give me high fives and I would have none of it. Like, absolutely not. And by the time I got to the end of that race, I had all these people who were so excited that the Puritan was out there heaping scorn on them and judging them. And so you can always do something different, take a different route, bring someone else along, wear a funny hat. This is one of the funny things. I will go for a run sometimes when I'm not prepared to go for a run. I've got my dress shirt on and whatever, or I'll show up to do— oh, you're meeting out here. I haven't had time to go home and get my stuff, but I can throw a plastic bag together with a couple snacks in it and I'll show up. Everybody's in their kit, they're wearing their One Direction and their Salomon vest and they got all their poles. And I show up with like a plastic bag and a Hawaiian shirt or something. And they're like, "Are you kidding me?" I'm like, "No, I think it'll be good. It should be fine." And you go out and run. That becomes memorable and fun. So what do you do to break through those little things? Something different if you want, or bring a friend along or invite someone who's wildly out of place for some reason. And all of a sudden it becomes fun and interesting again, like a course that you've done a whole bunch of times is suddenly the most exciting thing ever to someone who hasn't been there, who hasn't done that.

I will say, Carrie, a few months ago you came to town and you shared with me the wonderful idea that in 3 weeks you were going to do your first Ironman. And you, you had zero experience swimming or on the bike, basically. Yeah. To a point that I was genuinely concerned for you going in the ocean for 2.4 miles. Yeah. Yeah. That I got 2 of my friends, Duke and Joseph, to come over. You joined our unplanned Tuesday night session, and we ended up spending an hour in the pool to teach you how to swim. Then afterwards, these guys kind of talk you through, like, what is a real Ironman experience like? And then 3 weeks later, you went out and you did it.

I appreciate that so much from your friends because there was no plan. I was just driving through, and Floris was like, oh, come out. I'm going out tonight. Well, you can work out with us. I'm like, great. "Hey, what are you gonna do?" And they hadn't decided yet. So when it became clear that I was running and that the swim was not my strong point and they had experience, we went to the pool and I got some pointers that helped me out quite a bit. So yeah, that was another one as a byproduct. My always say yes, my always say yes mantra. My friend Jeff is one of 7 people who have completed every single Ironman offered all over the world. There's a club of 7 people who have done that. And he was— I kept inviting him out to do— I invited him out to do the Montana Great Northern Circle Loop that I did, that there was some support there from. And I invited him a number of things. He kept saying, "I can't." He's a very busy person. He travels almost as much as I do. He's all over the map. And so he did the reverse Uno card to me and he said, "These are the 9 Ironmans I'm doing this year. Come do one with me." And I thought, "Okay, bastard." 'Cause he knows you wanna say yes. I will say yes, right? And I look and I thought, okay, so I had the Arizona Monster to do, so I couldn't do in the spring. And then I did the Mammoth 200, which I saw you at the PATH Project aid station, which was halfway through and freaking, that was so good. 'Cause the aid station, food selection up to that point was not good. So I figured right after that I can go and there's one in Mexico. And at first he said, "Oh, you know, I'll be able to hook you up with a bike and all that." I'm like, "Great." Then I had to find my own bike. So I had to do a lot of things and swimming is a challenge. So doing that with you gave me a little bit more confidence. I thought, "Oh, you know, bike, I can probably survive a bike ride." Even if it's a long bike ride. And it was funny, the advice that I was getting from him all circle was about the how to navigate the endurance portion of it, which I was not worried about. I was more worried about logistics and staying afloat and getting out of the water and having a bike. And so I went out with the expectation that it would be a long day and probably a hard day. And it ended up ridiculously windy on the bike. The swim, miraculously, I survived. I got out in an hour 39, even though I pulled a muscle within the first 5 minutes. And I felt like there was a current against me. I was looking down at the bottom of the ocean, and I'm swimming and swimming and swimming. Here's the funniest part to me. I'm swimming, swimming, swimming. They have all these— and I waited to the very end to get in because I didn't want to be in anyone's way swimming. So I'm in the very end, several thousand people ahead of me. And I'm swimming along, and my chosen path is I swim crawl freestyle for a given point, and then I flip over to my back and I swim on my back for a little while. And there's these people in boats coming, and one of them is blowing a whistle at me. Yeah. And she said, are you in distress? And I said, no. She said, I see you flopping around. I'm like, oh, that's my swimming technique. That's actually something I'm meaning to do. I'm swimming. So yeah, don't worry about me. It was planned like this. We're fine. I'm swimming. So I'll go back and forth. And she goes, okay, I thought you were maybe in trouble. I'm like, no, no, no, no, fine. I'm good. I'm good. And so eventually there were these big floating buoys and you just had to stay on the one side of them. And when I first was swimming, they seemed so freaking far away. Look how far I got to go to the next buoy. Then eventually they came quicker and quicker. And then, you know, you got into the zone and all of a sudden I'm like, by God, I'm going to finish this. I will get out of the water, which for me, that's a, you know, a huge victory. So I, you know, I got into that. I got out of the bicycle ride with some total of my bike training was 2 months earlier riding around Burning Man. And then doing one ride on a stationary bike in my gym, and that was it. And so my friend thought, oh, well, you gotta— I gotta tell you about how to fuel. I'm like, I know how to fuel. That's something I know. Well, about salt pills. I kind of know. I'm probably not gonna follow your advice. I'm gonna do— So I knew how to keep going to sustain. That was the easier part. And then the last part, marathon on the road with Will, I can survive that. So yeah, it was— but the swim part, you helped me navigate. That's one of those things where, again, people come in and they will support you if you need it.

But it is like the universe cooperating in a nice, gentle way at that point. Like, you and I were not even going to meet up. You literally called at like 5:30 on a Tuesday, and at 6:00, I'm always meeting up with my friends. And then we were talking and this came up and let's just go to the pool and This is interesting how life works when you say yes and when you're just leaning into some of these kind of things.

For those listening, by the way, that culminated in your book party, which was amazing. Oh, get his book, The Running Breakthrough. That's right.

That's right. You came to my house afterwards and there was a surprise birthday or a surprise book launch party.

I was all of a sudden super concerned because your friend goes up and comes down. I was like, oh my God, you got to come upstairs. Something's happened. And I thought, oh my God, this is horrible. And so you go running upstairs and— wasn't Duke who came?

Yeah, Duke literally said, there's an emergency, they need you upstairs.

And so Duke runs up and Floris goes— and the other guy sort of waves at me enthusiastically, oh, come on. I'm like, should I be worried? Am I— I don't know quite what happened, some family emergency. And I go up and as we go up the stairs, surprise! That was so funny. I love that.

That was— yeah, I literally thought that my kid was choking or there was a fire in the kitchen. And here we were having a surprise. That was all on that same day. That's funny. So for those listening, how can you encourage them to say yes more? Is there any type of advice you have there?

One is the super simple. Just say yes. If someone— I'm the person who, if someone says, Oh, you know, I am at this particular place. I've got this cool thing. You should come by and do it sometime. I will say, okay, beware, I will actually show up. I've got friends who think I live in places that are thousands of miles away from 'em, 'cause they see me. I go out and I do things. So saying yes to things means opening yourself up to being invited or asking, hey, can I jump in with you on that? Even people you think would say no will often bring you in because you've shown some initiative. Some people— I have an Instagram account which is very eclectic, much like my YouTube channel. It's selfish in some way in that I'm doing this just to record for me and I'm doing this to share with my friends. It's not very focused on one thing. Like, if you go and follow it, you will see acrobatics, you'll see travel, you'll see family stuff, you'll see all this different stuff, but people will reach out and say, "Hey, I notice you're in the Canary Islands. I'm actually in the Canary Islands. I'm a runner." I'm like, "I will 100% meet you. Let's go." And all of a sudden you're running with a local, which is great. It's fantastic. So that's the first thing, just say yes. The other thing is create opportunities for other people to say yes, but that takes some initiative on your part. Like, hey, I'm going to go out and do this thing. This is why it could be fun and cool. Do you want to come? And eventually people are going to jump in. And if people say yes, guess what? You're going to do that then. You're going to do that thing. So create opportunities for people to also say yes and encourage people to invite you or to become somebody who's a positive enough impact. You contribute to Everything to some degree is what I'll call transactional, right? We have an energy interchange, you and I. You roll up to a toll booth and you've got someone working in the toll booth. There's an energy exchange. You can leave it positive-positive, which is the objective, positive-negative, negative-negative. A lot of the world sees this as kind of like a polarity, positive-negative. Someone's getting, someone's giving, someone's getting. But I think it can be positive-positive. So yes is, "Hey, that sounds amazing. Let's go. Let's do that." And then not worrying about, "Oh, I didn't get to do this other thing." Just appreciate where you are in the moment and go do that one thing, whatever it is. If your running is around your block, great. Make the best of it. If you don't get to go to the mountain or the trail or the trip, don't worry about it. You can make your own fun. Fun with it. Like, you can turn anything into engagement, into fun, into something memorable with a little bit of effort.

Absolutely. You have decades of running experience, teaching people transformation, and you've seen this in yourself and you've seen this in a lot of other people. What advice do you have to your younger self if you would go back in time? Right now you're 58 years old. And you could go back to Kerry being 20 or 30 years old, what advice would you give that Kerry?

Hard things are worth doing. Risks are worth taking. When I first moved out to Southern California, I was, you know, in my 20s. And a thing that appealed to me is I wanted to, I like motorcycles, I rode motorcycles. I thought a dream job would be to go and work for a motorcycle magazine because you get to test everything, you get to go out and do these cool things. And but I'm, I'm some kid living in Michigan or New York or something like that, and, and all the motorcycle magazines are in California. So I just kept showing up and showing up. And that's a good example of picking a hard thing to do and then just following it through and doing it. If you could sustain that and keep paying the price to do the hard thing, that's a milestone or a key highlight for you. Like, it's awesome to have a book. Congratulations. Like, literally, that's amazing. That's something I have not yet done. So you're an inspiration to me. I think Okay, Kerry. And I don't care that I'm 58.

You have stories enough for 10 books, man.

I probably do have stories enough for 10 books, but I haven't done it like you have. So I will at some point do that. So here's 58-year-old Kerry encouraging 58-year-old Kerry to just get the book done. Because I think if you do those hard things, things, they become these almost like pillars that you can build from. There are these stakes in the ground which show that's where you are, who you are at that time. And even doing the videos, doing videos for me, it's important to record them. And it's like, you're well aware, it's a bit of a hassle. You got 3 cameras, you got the lights, you gotta have all the sound, everything. Someone's gotta edit all this together. It's work, it's a hard thing. And there's got to be some intrinsic benefit to you to share that. You have, in my opinion, a fairly holistic life, quality life, meaning you've got work, which is rewarding, the PATH Projects. PATH Projects is a great brand. I love what you do. I love the gear. Even if I put the Bomb Baby Yacht Club on this one. Love that shirt. I like the gear. You run yourself because you like running, go out and doing the adventures. You have a podcast, which we're on right now, which centers around running. You have a coaching business. You have a book. This is all— it's so beautifully related, but every single thing takes time and effort. Just being able to have that volume of content. Gives you, in my view, gravitas, weight, credibility, so that when people look for someone interesting who's in the field of running who might be able to contribute to something, like you contribute to people in a profound way, very profound. You make a positive difference to people because of what you do. And you can only do that if you've chosen or opted into doing the hard things. So you asking me, what would I tell my younger self or anybody? What would I tell somebody? Pick some hard things to do. And those are character building. Those are defining characteristics. People remember those things. And my approach is I will try and stack as many of those things as I can up. Like, I want to travel to all the places. I want to do the hard things. I want to have the friends to go out There are all these circles in life. Like, you've got your social circle. Do you have connections with people in a series of different circles that are interesting to you where you can give to them and they can give to you? If not, maybe go out and do that. Like, the people you surround yourself with to some extent define you. And if you're surrounded by an eclectic bunch of folks who are inspirational, That's the best way.

That is honestly one of the reasons why I enjoy doing this podcast so much. Oh, heck yeah. Like, I end up connecting with all these fascinating people. Like you were saying, I'm making videos for myself on my YouTube and on my Instagram because I want to document it. Yeah, that's similar to me. Like, these are literally people that I genuinely enjoy the conversation with, that I'm learning things from, that I'm taking things away. And then I'm like, let's just put it on YouTube because I think some other people might enjoy it. Yeah. And so—

Dude, you're winning. I'm going to call it the win. Like, you get to speak to some of the most amazing folks out there, like best of the best, top of the food chain. And they will come and talk to you because you have credibility, because you've done those hard things and you've built that up. You've built up the relationships, you've built up you have that background, so they can sit across from you and they're eager to share because it's beneficial for both of you. And as a byproduct of it being beneficial for both of you, everybody else, the audience, gets to see that and also benefit from it. Like, I'm— I think it's so cool. You're talking to Elliot Kipchoge, you're talking to Kilian Jornet, you're going out and doing the 72 Peaks thing with him. I'm reading it and you're going out and doing it. That's amazing. You're talking to Rachel Endrickson, Jakob Ingebrigtsen, all these people. It's like, dude, high five. It's amazing.

But the interesting thing is this, right? When I think back about 12 years ago when I started the podcast, I was so incredibly nervous to reach out to a first guest. I would have these questions prepared. I was just reading them from the screen. I would not even be able to hear what the other person was saying. And then I would already think about the next question because there was going to be. And once again, leaning into hard things, stacking some of these skills on top of each other. And over time it becomes a conversation. Over time it's not an interview anymore. And I think the more we can just lean into that discomfort and be okay to like, this is not your perfect interview. This is not, you know, like don't care what other people think.

Just— it's interesting you describing it like that because I do, I work with groups. Corporate groups all over the place. And usually there's some sort of team building, some sort of training component. There's always this, uh, desire, if you will, to make a shift. And when I consider a potential facilitator to come in, sometimes we've got multiple things happening in different places. Like, we've got two today, one in City of Industry, one in San Diego, uh, But I will look for people who are able to adapt seamlessly. It's never gonna be a perfect run. If it is, freaking miracle, right? But if you can adapt so that it works, like the best facilitators are folks who don't get ruffled if things go off the rails. And I think for you talking about, Having your first podcasts be such that you're nervous and you're trying to make sure, oh my gosh, I've got a person of note sitting across from me and I've got these questions. I got to read them right. I can't even hear what's happening because I'm just trying to be aware of what's around me. But eventually you become comfortable. And when you're comfortable and confident, then you can have an organic conversation that's less scripted. An organic conversation that's less scripted is almost always more compelling than just, okay, I'm reading. People know when you're reading a question, right? But if you're having an organic interchange between people, then suddenly that's interesting. But it's dangerous territory and it's a risk because you don't know where that's going to go.

Yeah. And you just got to lean into the unknown. I think you were talking about gaining experience and because of experience, it becomes easier leaning into hard things, saying yes, even when you feel in your stomach, like, ooh, I'm nervous for this. Like, should I do it? Should I not do it?

That's the moment you got to lean in. That's the best place. That's where the growth happens. I love it when there's something that gets me like, oh my word, are we going to be able to pull this off? I don't know. We're going to— let's go. Let's see if we can. Yeah. That's a fun one to do. Earlier this year, we did an event, our biggest event, 10,000 people. And there's a charitable component to it. Making a charitable event for 10,000 people is logistically mega complex. And our client was very demanding, wanted to know exactly everything that was happening. And based on the experience we had, we figured we'd be able to do it. It took some unconventional methods. We rented a house for a month so we could order $100,000 worth of items that would then be donated to charity. 140,000 different things that would go into bags. Ultimately, every bag would have 25 items in it. So we donated 5,000 bags to these charities. Remarkably, even though it didn't go perfectly, it all went according to plan. And And afterwards, the feedback we got from the client was, I can't believe this went as smooth as it did. I can't believe this actually happened. And that was largely, again, because we'd done it enough times that you can see how it will go in your head, even though you haven't been there. Like visualization is an important thing in athletics. It's also an important thing when you do an event like this. So people will have the confidence that, hey, you'll be able to pull it off. So whether that's completing a 200 or doing an event for somebody, it's with a lot of people, 10,000 people. At the core, it starts with just that little shift. Hey, I'm going to do this. I'm going to write a book.

I'm going to run a 5K. For those listening, recreational runners from beginner to advanced, how would they go about visualization to finish a training cycle or a race?

So thought is a creative process. Nothing happens unless you first think it. If you can perhaps conceive, hey, I'm gonna finish this half marathon, I'm gonna actually get there, I will be able to accomplish it, I'll run every step, I'll do it within a certain time, and you can work through some of the potential problems that will come up, and not be cowed or give up when the problems jump up and problems you might not have even thought about jump up, then you're in a place where it's very likely that you'll be able to complete your thing. So it's that mental shift from this thing doesn't exist, it's not possible, to I'm gonna do this. And even if you're not 100% confident, you're still going to go out and do this and recognize, hey, there's going to be hurdles, there's going to be hard things. Like yesterday on the loop that I run, it's a long uphill to start. And I haven't done it in quite a while. And I know it's hard to go up. In the beginning, I think I can probably run this, but I don't know. And so immediately, first thing going up the hill, my heart rate's going. Am I gonna be able to get through this thing? And then you just settle in. It's like, I'm just gonna keep motoring, keep motoring, keep motoring. And then again, by the time I got to the top of the hill, I'm like, I'm gonna just keep running this whole course. And there's quite a bit of climbing and some bits technical, but it's again, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna give it a crack. I don't know if I'll be able to do it. I'm gonna encounter some obstacles. When I encounter those obstacles, bless 'em. Yay, I get to go through some obstacles. This is amazing. Good, I had a hard time. I went through a hard thing. Next time I have a hard thing, even today running up the hill, at some point you're like, "We don't have to go fast." I'm like, "Great, I don't need to go fast. I don't need to prove anything to anybody. I will absolutely walk up a hill." So I think if you are contemplating doing something, there has to be that shift. This is where it's always, the answer is always yes. Do you wanna go out and do this thing? Yes, I do. I want to go out and do that thing. Okay, then that shift has happened. Now you need to picture, how am I going to do it? And you can envision— I read a thing yesterday that talked about one of the most profound things that in training, way back when, I think it was Greek wrestling or something like that. And the visualization that they did was, they pictured themselves losing because they were afraid of losing. So they pictured that. And then when they went back out to wrestle, they'd already pictured the loss. So they'd been there. They know what that's like. So they're not scared of it. So that fear factor that limits your performance just went away and they performed at a much higher level. So I'd say that's the same thing true in running. Like you've got the fear factor. So what if you don't finish?

Like, if you don't— it really is like what I sometimes ask that question, what is the worst thing that can happen? And very often if you're going on a run, you can just start walking. Yeah. And as long as you're prepared, bring enough water, bring some snacks, like just make it a power hike and just make it back. And so of course, don't do anything stupid. But on the other hand, maybe a little stupid because that's fun.

Yeah.

No, but for example, next last week, I'm driving out to the Grand Canyon. Yeah. And like, this was one of those things. There was an invitation to go run the Grand Canyon 26 miles with Ryan Hall, with the Believe in the Run guys, with Mount to Coast, and like just 8 friends running the Grand Canyon. And my initial reaction was like, 26 miles, 7,000-foot climbing. I'm in no way shape. I have not trained in any sort of way. But literally some of the conversations that you and I have had where you always come back to like, just say yes and you will find a way to work through it. And literally that conversation went back and forth in my head. What is the worst thing that can happen? It's probably that I'm just going to walk it and still have a wonderful time in the Grand Canyon. And even at that point, like there's several other people who are also not as physically trained as someone like Ryan Hall, the fastest marathoner back in the day, who's still an absolute beast. And so thank you for, for sharing that. I think that's a really big one.

I think that's how you got involved with running the Badwater too, with our mutual friend Jeff, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna take some pictures. Can't just take pictures, you gotta actually be crew. Oh my God. And I remember talking to you on the way, 'cause you were driving there and you're like, I guess I'm now gonna be pacing. I'm like, wow, that's great. That's so cool. I mean, I don't know how much heat training you've done, but my guess is none. And you're just showing up to do Badwater.

There was actually some heat training in advance, but I literally called you because once again, this is an interesting one. Surround yourself with people who have done things before. Yes. So even though I was there for you to get you in the pool, to get you swimming. Yeah. You have much more experience with heat training. Yeah. And so this is— or like with heat events in the desert, in hot conditions. So I literally, on my drive to Badwater, I called you. I called several other friends who have done Badwater before, who have done different races. I have not done Badwater.

No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, but I know you've been out there for long races. And I think surround yourself and you get some interesting learnings.

A total side note, but related exactly to what you're saying. I'm running the Cocodona with Pam Reed, who is— she's done more than 200 ultramarathons. You're running Cocodona this year? No, no, no. Oh, this is the first year. Oh, yeah. And Pam Reed and I are kind of in the same— and I see her a few times and we chat. And we get to the point where, and she's saying, "God, it's hot out there." I'm like, "Yeah, but you're, you know, a badass from Badwater." And she's completed a whole bunch of times and won it outright. And she says to me, "I think this is a lot harder than Badwater." I'm like, "Pam Reed, you did not just say that to me." She said, "I think it is, 'cause in Badwater, every few minutes you've got somebody that's there, and here you are just exposed for hours and hours and hours and nobody's around you." freaking an inferno. And at that point, she was also sort of developing a little bit of the lean, the side lean.

I remember seeing her. Yeah.

And, um, I thought, wow, if Pam Reed says this is tougher in some ways than Badwater because of the format, okay, I'll take that. Like, it's— I'll take that doing a hard thing. So freaking hard things, you got to embrace them.

And special people. And once again, like it was in a conversation with Courtney DeWalter, where she used to fear the pain cave and then she rephrased it that she started looking forward to it. And that's once again going back to the Westblade thing. That's where what you signed up for, that's where the real work starts. Yeah. And how are you going to show up for those moments and find ways to work through that? And that's where you grow as an athlete and a human.

Freaking legends. Yeah. Courtney also in Moab, that was her, I'm gonna call it her real coming out. Breakthrough race. Yeah. I remember running that with my friend, Dylan was pacing me and we were getting updates like, hey, Courtney is way in front of everybody. And I thought, oh my God, that's amazing. And Dylan had known of her before in her 24-hour I think she had the mark, the American woman's mark for running a 24 hours. And she finished 20 hours ahead of me and 10 hours in front of Sean Nakamura, who was the male winner. And I thought, like, unbelievable, unbelievable. And then because there were other people in that race of note, like Cameron Haynes, to put a lot of eyeballs on it. So then Joe Rogan invited her out and then this, like, I think this has just been a blossoming of the ultra world to where it's— I don't think it's mainstream at all because people still look at you like you're an alien. You do what? That's ridiculous. Do ridiculous things and all of a sudden you create a life that feels much more exciting, intense, rewarding. It gives you again that that depth of character. I think just again, breaking out, breaking out, breaking out.

It's so funny. You and I were going to record for an hour. Here we are. We ran for an hour. We've been recording for close to 2. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to be respectful of your time. In closing, just one question here. Quite a few people listening that are at different stages in their training and their racing. Do you have any closing thoughts for recreational runners looking to become a stronger, healthier, happier athlete?

Again, I'm all about intentional creation and responsibility. Wherever you are, you'll be able to find your circle, your people, your tribe. And for me, that makes a big difference. I know it's not for everybody. Some people like to be solo lone wolf, which is great as well. But if you find your tribe and embrace that, and both be tough on yourself and yet kind to yourself. Meaning, yeah, if you're not having the greatest day, push through a little bit, but at a certain point you can say, okay, I don't have to prove something to myself, or it's not gonna be a complete failure if I don't run 10 miles, I only run 8 today, or whatever it happens to be. There's a thing called the Pareto principle, the 80/20 rule, which essentially says that 80% of your value usually comes from 20% of your effort. And the remaining takes an inordinate amount of time. Like, you can get 80% of the way there, and that won't take too long, but then the last 20 takes forever. Getting out the door is immediately the 80/20 rule. If you get out the door, you say, "Hey, I'm gonna meet you at whatever time." Like, even coming here this morning, like, goddamn, I'm up at 2 whatever, and I know I've got to get up at 5 to come here. But you commit to it, you show up, and then you do it. And do I have regrets that I woke up in the morning? No, I don't. I'm super pleased. So for a recreational runner, get out the door, get a tribe, be kind to yourself, and introduce some sort of novelty into it. Do something different. I remember during the Olympics with my lunch running group, my ICBC running group, we run around and I found like this torch and the Olympics were in Vancouver in 2010. And so I brought this out when we're running and they're like, what are you doing with this torch? I'm like, this would be great. We're just gonna hold it up and we're gonna be running through and we'll take the road that has more roads on it. And so we got like 8 people running and one of them's got a torch on the front that's running and we're all running. People are beeping and getting all excited. It was so fun. Just that stupid little thing you do. Like, if you can do something like that just to keep it, again, engaging and fun. And if you're a highly competitive runner, you could still do this, insert that little bit of fun into your run. And suddenly it's not just nose to the grindstone, trying to crank, crank, crank.

How can people find their tribe? How can people— because I know you're a very outspoken person, meaning like we go anywhere. Like you and I went to Mount Baldy a few years ago when we ended up in the, in the waterfall and whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. Regardless who you come across, you have like this interesting conversation with. But for those who might be listening, who might be less extrovert as you are, like I'm way more introvert than you are. But how do you go about finding your tribe?

Common interest connects people, and people are often eager to share the things that they're excited and passionate about. So if you have an interest in running or trail running or sprinting or fell running or whatever it happens to be, there are people you just need to reach out. There's local running stores, there's Reddit groups, there's podcasts, and, and, and places where you have bulletin boards where runners go. Those are the places you can— and some of these are local too— you can, you can find those people. Or you just take a chance like I did with the people running by my house that I end up running with for years and run along and say, where are you going? What are you doing? If you have something to contribute and you're not an energy vampire taking in energy, they're going to welcome you in. Take an interest in people. Ask them questions. Share stories. Ask about their stories. Then you can start to find a tribe. And then again, say yes to people who invite you to do something. And give people an opportunity to say yes by putting something together that they might jump in on. And then even if it's a small race or a small event, or, you know, if you've got people who are going out and doing a thing, best day ever. Yeah.

Best day ever. Gary, thank you so much. You're welcome, Floris. Love you, man. This was awesome. Same here. Much love, man. The only thing that you and I will have to talk about at some point is some of the future adventures that we're gonna plan, but that's gonna be— I'm in. I know you're going to say yes. I think I have to start saying yes some more to some of these things you're throwing my way as well.

So yeah, I would love for you to come out on a proper one. I'll put you into the uncomfortable place. I'll take you literally into the deep cold water. You'll like the cold water part, but I'll take you into like some places. Good.

Yeah, well, that will be part of video number 2. At some point.

Yeah, yeah, that'll be awesome.

Thanks, Carey. You're welcome. Carey is such a legend. Never a dull moment with him. I would love to hear from you. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this conversation? Let me know in the comments below. My new book, Running Breakthroughs, is still available and now also available as audiobook, printed book, and ebook through my website florisgierman.com or Amazon globally as well. It sells at 20 different websites globally. So the shipping cost is kept low there. Our new running coaching program, the Personal Best Program or the Personal Best Running Club, it's very community-driven. It is available through pbprogram.com. I just got back from the Grand Canyon, had an absolute epic time running with Ryan Hall and our friends from Believe in the Run and Mount the Coast. We jumped all the way into the river. We ran Yeah, it was a hot day in the canyon. I will be making a video out of that soon. Also got a chance to meet up with Molly Seidel at her house to record a podcast and with Ryan Hall to record podcast number 2. Had a blast diving into strength training, um, for athletes, for runners in particular. So more to follow there. There's a lot of good podcasts coming up soon. So stay tuned and have fun out there on your runs. Bye now.