How to Run a Faster Marathon with Bill Callahan

Hello friends around the world, my name is Floris Gierman and welcome to another episode of The Extra Mileage Show. On this show I interview different people that go the extra mile in all different aspects of life. These are different endurance athletes and runners, these are different running coaches and endurance coaches that are able to get the absolute best out of people. For example, coaches like Dr. Phil Maffetone. And even health gurus like Wim Hof, the Iceman, with more than 20 world records. On today's episode, I'm interviewing Bill Callahan from New York. He lives there with his wife Lindsay and 2 kids. He has a busy full-time job and his wife is currently going to grad school, yet still he is able to get in 50 to 60 training miles with running every single week. And so it's quite fascinating to see how he has been able to improve from a 3:40 marathon down to a 2:53 marathon. Marathon by improving his training volume, by implementing low heart rate training, and by just gaining more experience through racing and through training as well. Bill and I had a very fun conversation about how he's been able to become a stronger, faster, and healthier athlete. All show notes from today's episode are available on my website extramilest.com. Without further ado, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Bill Callahan. Welcome to the show, Bill. How are you doing today?

I'm doing really well. Thanks for having me. I appreciate being here.

Yeah, absolutely. Maybe we can go back in time a little bit and talk about some, some of your background, some of your— how you first got into running and a little bit more about you personally as well.

Sure, be happy to. So I live right now in central New York, so outside of Utica. No one knows where that is, so everyone knows where Syracuse is. So it's about 45 minutes east of Syracuse, so dead central New York. So right now we're battling snowstorms and cold weather, so we're doing a lot of, uh, training outside where it's anywhere from 0 to— today was a warm day, it was 30. Wow. So, uh, it's always an interesting phenomenon trying to run during the winter, and then you get into the summer not that long from now and you'll be 90, no problem. So there's no consistency, but you adapt. So, um, my wife Lindsay and I live here. We have, uh, 2 young boys So one's going to be 5 in a few weeks, the other one just turned 2 last month. So between them, our hectic jobs, my wife's in grad school right now, so all that combined keeps us really busy. So I'm just trying to run when I can and to adapt and make time, and it's been enjoyable and it's been going well so far.

Much respect to how you're able to put off— like, put in like 60 miles a week right now. I know Like when I look at your Strava, I see consistently across the board and I'm like, I'm impressed, man. Thanks.

It's a lot of creativity. It's a lot of night running. 9 o'clock is the norm. We actually had our running club's award banquet last night and someone came to me, he goes, man, I see you running at 9 and 10 o'clock all the time. And I said, you got to do it. So I try to run during the day when I can and on the weekends I take advantage of you know, afternoons when our youngest is napping to try to get out then. So just got to be creative, break up some times and segments, you know, maybe a 4 or 5 here and then do like an 8 or 9 later, but also encompassing some rest in there and some stretching and things like that because obviously that's important as well too. So yeah, but, uh, yeah, on that running journey, um, it's all credit to my wife. I was not a runner. Um, I grew up playing soccer for the most part, played some basketball too, and then We met back in 2006, and she had come here once. She was from the Albany region, it's the capital of New York, and she said, "I'm familiar with your town. I actually was there last year to run a race." So it's the largest 15K in the country, it's called the Boilermaker. And she goes, "Have you ever run it?" And I just remember looking at her, I started laughing, I go, "I would never run in my life." I said, "I'm not a runner, I won't run." We met in January, so that July, there I was at the start with her running a 15K.

And this was, what year was this?

This was back in, gosh, 2006.

Okay.

So, but then the race was over and then kind of that was it. And that was the routine for several years. And then, so we would all start, training May, June, be like, it's a 15K, I'll put in like 20 miles a week. I didn't know what I was doing. I just grabbed a pair of shoes from the closet and then kind of went from there and just kind of showed up. But my family started getting involved and then it was kind of turned into a family event. But that was kind of the only thing. So fast forward a little bit. So back in 2011, my dad died. And— Oh wow. I'm sorry, I didn't know. Oh, thanks. He and my mother were always on the course as volunteers giving out ice and water around mile 6 or so. I said, "Geez, I want to run something in his honor for charity." It's the last thing he saw all of us do together. I decided to run a marathon in 2012. I trained for the Vermont City Marathon. It's Memorial Day weekend up in Vermont. I ran a marathon and then kind of got that away, raised a bunch of money for charity in his name. So it was a really good thing. And I kind of went back into that whole, all right, I'm just gonna go to the Boilermaker again. And but then like the following year, I had gotten injured a little bit before the marathon in 2012. And so I didn't think I ran that well. I got like a, gosh, like a 3:40, which is not bad for your first time ever and not knowing really what to do.

No, 3:40 is like more than half an hour faster than what I did at my first marathon, so that's great. Oh, thanks.

And kudos to my wife, she just gave me a training plan, sent me out the door, and I just kind of followed it. Come to find out she modified just a beginner plan for me. I didn't really know how to fuel, I didn't know anything. I look back at pictures of me and I had these like really bulky training shoes on and it just didn't go well. I had a minor muscle tear in my calf and the doctor told me not to run. I told him, I like, look, I've got to run because so many people had raised money for me. So I did it and finished pretty well. And then, but I wasn't satisfied. So we were living in New York City at the time. So I put in for the 2013 New York City Marathon, got in, and then ran that, did much better. And then, then eventually we moved back up here to Central New York, and then I just, for one reason or another, I said I'm just gonna do something beyond the Boilermaker, and I went to a couple races and I placed in a couple of them. I thought, this is really cool, like, oh, what if I do this all year round? And then, and the end of 2015, beginning of 2016 is when it started. So now it's, now I'm training all year round, putting in thousands of miles, doing a lot of races, and it's been so much fun. I'm involved in the club now. I'm on the, on the board of it. So that keeps me busy too. So it's just been— running has been a lot. And so kudos to my wife for introducing me, and then the fact that my family supports everything I've been trying to do with it is really encouraging too. So it encompasses all of us being together and cheering us on. I mean, my wife has surprised me a few times bringing our son at the end of a race, and I didn't know they're gonna be there. So you cross the finish line, there they are. It's a pretty cool moment.

That's so special. That really is. You put in so much time and effort to train consistently and then actually to seeing them come out like that to a race, I've had it a few times as well. It definitely is icing on the cake for sure.

Yeah, I remember I did a half marathon a couple of years ago and my wife was pregnant with our second child. I remember I was running towards the finish and all of a sudden I look to my left and I go, I could see my son with his hand out trying to give me a high five and I went, Oh my God, they're here. So I gave him a high five and then I ran and then I turned around, here he's running at, to me at the finish. It was amazing. So I had those photos, I had those photos up. So it's just something that, like you said, is very special.

Yeah, absolutely. So what has it been for you when you look back at some of your first marathons and some of your later training right now? Like, how has your training and your racing evolved over the years?

Oh, I'm still learning. Um, there's so much, there's so much to learn and to try, and there's always new things coming out, uh, whether it be product related or you just find some different gear in yourself that you respond to. So if you look back at my first one, I just— it was just someone telling me what to do, and it was like, here's your plan, here's what you're gonna do on Monday all the way to Saturday. She had me resting on Sundays. I didn't know anything about nutrition. I think, gosh, I took like 3 gels to the marathon that day and some water, and I just really didn't know what I was doing. I took off too fast like most people do when you first start running. You just think that you're a ball full of energy, the adrenaline's going, you just take off, and then you slowly die throughout the race. Yeah. So looking back at that, I go, geez, and then I didn't respond well. So I mean, things go wrong as we train. I mean, there's a lot that can go on. You feel a little tired and you might have a muscle pull, and I just kept sticking to that plan. I didn't adapt and say like, an extra rest day is not a bad thing. I can modify this. So I was way too structured in the beginning. So as I've evolved throughout the years, going to my second marathon, I remember partnering with some other guy there in the race that kind of helped us kind of stay with us, so I've always kind of do that. If you know someone's with you and kind of the same capabilities, keep with you, 'cause you can kind of work off each other, so the miles go faster. And then I was definitely fueling a lot better, grabbing more water early. I dehydrate often, just the way my body responds, so I sweat a lot, so just making sure I'm doing a lot of water throughout the race. And then you look back into when I first started qualifying, or trying to qualify for a race such as Boston, I looked and said my pace just totally went down as the course of a race, so I got to be better at pacing. That was one of the biggest structures. When I looked online, found some of the things that you're promoting and some other literature that was out there regarding heart rate training, that I really embraced that because I go there's a lot of good feedback based on that, so let me try it. Trying to do that, starting back over, I mean, I wasn't that far into it, but then totally shifting and say, I got to do something different. And that's been a big difference maker. So I started doing that back in 2016.

That was the low heart rate training that you started in 2016?

Yeah, I thought so. Because if I looked back, I remember just going out and like, hey, whatever I felt that day, that's what I'm going to run. I'm just going to run. If I'm— if I run really fast, great. If I run really slow, I got to go faster. There was no— there was nothing. I mean, I was just going out there just blind. And it was— now looking back, I go, that was just absolutely the wrong thing to do. Um, so it was a great learning lesson that way. And so, so when I started the heart rate training, I think when people do it, they go, geez, I'm running really slow. Sometimes I'm walking, like, next thing I know, here comes a hill and here I'm walking. But just kind of stick with it because I know that you always said, like, stick with it, and other people say just stick with it. So I stuck with it and I go, all of a sudden you just start seeing those miles start to get a little bit quicker and a little bit quicker. And then the course of the— it's like say 4 or 5 months, you go, "Geez, there's some noticeable improvement." It didn't really help for the few races that I ran because I was used to running faster. So I go, "No, there's a plan. I'm trying to do a thing here. So just stick with the plan." I think just people change a lot. They'll try one book or one plan for like 6 months. They go, "Oh, I don't think that's working. I'm going to try something else." But if you come up with a sound plan and you stick with it for say a course of a year or two, you'll see marked improvement. I think that was the biggest key for me, just try to see what other people are doing and going with them. I just stuck to what I thought was showing improvement.

I think that is one of the biggest takeaways right there, because too many times, and I even hear it in our own Extramile Facebook group, of like, oh yeah, I'm trying the maffetone approach, and I also have a running coach who's having me run hard 3 times a week. So how do I compare? How do I combine them? It's like These are two methods that are contradicting each other. It doesn't always work when you're trying to do two or three different training methods and try to combine them. There's a reason why this has been developed or that has been developed. And it's funny how quickly some people draw conclusions of this is working or this is not working. Instead of indeed being patient and over time seeing some of these improvements happen.

Definitely. I think too is like, because we all want to go race. You train for a month or two like, "I just got to get a race in. My friends are going. I know someone else there. It helps charity, which is great." And they go and then they go, "It wasn't what I expected. So someone else at the race that won or did better than me told me about this training. I better flip over to that now." Which as you know, everybody's body responds differently. Some people are better sprinters. Some people are better longer runners. So it's whatever you find, you have to do your own thing.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Can you talk a little bit about what some of those improvements were that you started noticing with heart rate training? Like you said, over like a 5-month period you saw an improvement. Sure. Do you remember what pace you were at the beginning when you started out and what pace you improved until?

Sure, gosh, I won't know the exact time, but I wanna say I was in the mid to upper 8s maybe into 9 range depending if I was going up a hill. Um, so you go, geez, I'm used to running in the 7s or something like that per mile. What am I doing? But then I just said, let me just stick with it. So you start doing some ones, and after a couple weeks, I know they've come down for about 15 seconds or 20 seconds or so. I was using a strap versus it being on my watch, so I thought that was a little bit more consistent there. So once I started doing it and For some reason, I'm not a— I'm really not a good sprinter. So the fact that I can actually go out and enjoy a run, look around, and not be huffing and puffing, I thought that was better for me. So I came to appreciate, enjoy running a little bit more, probably because a little bit slower, you start to recognize things. I ditched the headphones, I got rid of music. Yeah. And so I go, wow, this is great. You're starting to hear your body, you start to hear your breathing, you start responding that way. So once I started seeing 10 seconds off, 15 seconds off, it was a lot better. So I'd say up until now, so in the course of, gosh, almost 3 years, I mean, I'm in the— granted, I don't train all the time, we go through blocks, but I want to say as of right now I'm in the upper 6s just based on just sticking with it for the course of some years. Yeah. So I think, uh, just consistently going through it, I think is important.

That's— yeah, that's really good feedback right there. And one thing that we had talked about earlier briefly is you are still putting in 60 miles a week. So it's not that you just train and then all of a sudden you fall off completely. Like, you will maintain quite a level of fitness right there. Like, I'm at half that training volume, and even for me, like, this week, I think I'm at about 35 miles or something. And I notice that's, for me, a good amount of training volume based on other projects that I have going on right now to at least maintain fitness level. But if you're able to put that 60 hours or 60 miles in, then, like, I look at through your Strava, I see consistently 7 to 8 hours of training. I'm like, wow, good for you, man, especially in those snowy conditions and everything.

Yeah, I mean, sometimes I have to jump on the treadmill. You just can't, you can't go out when it's a really bad snowstorm. But I mean, going back, I think 2017 I ran just over 2,000 miles. Last year I ran 2,500. So I think to your point is some people think, I mean, I take vacations. There's some days I go, "Geez, I just don't feel like running. I got some other projects I want to do." So there's times I only put 10 miles in a week. That's fine. Your body needs to recover sometimes and it's good to take some rest. But I think you consistently have to be in there and consistently have to change where you run. So you got to get the hills in. You got to get the downhills in. You can't just run flat all the time because oftentimes I see people saying, "Geez, I'm not improving." I go, "If you just run on flat courses all the time, you're not going to see improvements because if you get to a race and there's a lot of hills," It's not going to go too well. Yeah, right, exactly. So I think, uh, doing some variations in your training are obviously important. And then that too, for me, I've always trained with, uh, which the other part that I've learned a lot is my gear, um, in the last few years. So from when I first started running, like I said, I saw these old like training shoes are really heavy. So now I have 4 pairs of shoes in my rotation. So I'll do different types of drop levels, different types of weights. So if I want to run like really slow, I'll just put on a nice kind of mid-weight shoe that's around 8-9 ounces and run with that. And then if I want to do some quicker work, I might put on something that only weighs about 7 ounces and more geared towards speed. So I think the variation levels too with that kind of help because you're hitting different muscles in your legs and around your feet and your ankles. So I think that support changes, so keeps your body completely tuned down below. And then trying to do some stretching and some other types of drills that you can do on top of it. I'm a big fan of, uh, even on an easy day, if you run like 7, 8 miles, just doing a couple 5, 6 strides at the end just to keep your muscles kind of loose that way too, kind of helps.

And probably it helps as well with just keeping somewhat of a quick turnover to some extent, right? Like I have noticed if I do extended periods of only slow miles, the other day I put in like a little bit of speed work and I started adding some speed work again. And even when I started picking up the pace towards a 7-minute and then like a mile at 6:30 and then a mile at 6, when I was running 6:30, it felt so fast, even though that was a pace that I was easily able to maintain for like a full marathon. I'm like, gee, it really is sometimes good to start adding some speed work once at least you have got a decent foundation built up. Get used to some of that faster turnover again.

Definitely, get that cadence up, the steps per minute up for sure.

Yeah, absolutely. Going back to the running in tricky conditions sometimes, whether it's snowy or whether you get your runs in at 9 o'clock at night, what are a few of the things that have worked for you motivation-wise to get out the door and to keep the mileage in consistent?

I think it's, so every year, I think what has helped me at the beginning of every year, I pick 2 or 3 races that are like my go-tos. So for this year, in this calendar year, it's Boston, and I'm going to go back and run New York City again. So, and I always have that Boilermaker one in the middle. So those are my 3 races this year. So I know if I want to do well at Boston, I never say what my time is going to be or my goal time is going to be. I want to keep that to myself because I don't need any added pressure, but I have that in mind, so I know based on training the last couple years how many miles I have to do. So if I want to get it, I got to go out and get it. So, um, so I know if, if it's, if it's cold out, there's— I mean, there's times where it's 9 o'clock at night, it's dark, the reel feels 8 degrees out because there's a 15 mile an hour wind, and I go, I gotta go. So I get my gear on and I go out the door with a big spotlight and some reflective stuff on and I stick to the neighborhoods just because the less traffic. Um, but if there's times it's not too bad, I'll run down to my basement and go hop on the treadmill. You just got to get it done. But even if I feel lethargic and don't want to get into it, once I get 1 or 2 miles in, my body's like, all right, you're good. So I just got to get over that little initial hump. And then once you get into it, then everything goes pretty well. Um, but as the course of it goes on, I think partnering up with people I think is really important. So if you know some people, whether they're running the same race that you are or they're running a race that's somewhat near yours— like yesterday morning there was 5 of us, we're all running marathons pretty close together. So if you got a 21-mile run that day and we had over 1,400 elevation change that day, if you got 4 or 5 guys together, it went really quick and it wasn't as painful as it is when you're by yourself. So I kind of think that, uh, that helps too with that motivation. There's a lot of camaraderie, which I mean, use the running groups. I've never met more positive people than in the running community. So the fact that I've yet to hear somebody turn anybody down for anything— like, if you need something, you want someone to run with, everybody always says yes. I've never met anyone that said no. Um, so I think that's always important too. And, um, and just thinking about the sooner I get done, the sooner I get back to my family, which is not a bad thing either. So I go, geez, if, if they're sacrificing some time for me, I gotta, I gotta do it when it's convenient for all of us. So I think about them and the time I spend with them. So when I have to get out the door, whether it be super late or super early in the morning before they get up, it's worth it.

Yeah, absolutely. And how did you decide what training volume is optimal for you to prepare best? Like right now you're training for Boston.

Yep.

And you have, did you run Boston before or not? Or is this gonna be your first?

So I ran it last year in the monsoon. So that was my first one. So hopefully we're gonna get some a little bit better weather than we did last year. Nothing could be worse, so it only could be better from here, but it was a lot of fun. So I just, I think it's based on how I've responded to races over the last couple years. I like to use Strava, so I'm looking back at 2017. I never was a blogger, never was a note-taker or anything, so I started using Strava just at the end, just for me. I really like that. I read a lot of, I felt like this, the weather was like this, you know, for a race. I said, you know, I took off too fast, I took off too slow, make sure you're aware of this. So then when I went through 2018, I went back and looked at races and I made marked improvements based on that. And then I also looked back at my weekly volume and said, all right, if I was 40 or 50 miles a week here, if I do— if I can find an extra half hour a day just to get a few more miles and add up to 50 to 60, 60 to 70, Could I see marked improvement? And that's exactly what happened. So I've used Strava a lot as a tool to both keep me knowledgeable of what I've been doing, how I felt, how I responded to different things. So my body knows I can take that on. And then when, of course, when I get to a race, I know exactly what to do. Because outside of— I mean, I do like races. I don't know what's going to happen when I've traveled around and say, hey, let's just go in blind. But the races that are local that I like to do, that I just look back for consistency. Efficiencies and find any little edge that can have in there to mark improvement. But I think the key is just saying— I've been in times when you get to a run, you go, geez, it's been like 6 or 7, and you go, geez, for another 20 minutes I can run another mile and a half. I've got 20 minutes. And then add it up over the course of the year, next thing you know you're a couple hundred miles more than when you thought, for not that much per day. I think if you break up the segments of each, each day adds up to a lot over the course of a whole calendar year. I kind of look at a marathon, so if you can shave off, you know, 10 seconds a mile doesn't sound like a lot, but the course of a marathon you got several minutes. So I think it's just the mindset change over the last couple years has kind of helped me saying this is where you can make some more miles up, this is where you can make some more improvements in your races. And I think the key is just being psychologically being able to adapt and just being ready.

Yeah, very, very well said right there. The small incremental additions per day, you don't see it in the moment. You just gotta believe in it that those small little things over time start building up, and that's such a valid point right there. Exactly. And I've even had it for myself that sometimes, like, let's say you run like 6.4 miles that day. And I would on purpose make it a point to get to 7 miles just to round it off, just to put in that little bit of extra, even when you don't necessarily feel like it. Just do that times 100 runs that year and you've run another 60 miles or whatever. And again, those little things start adding up. And the other point you just made about Strava, I love the fact that you're able to easily go to the calendar and just scroll back, not even like to last month, but even I've sometimes looked back to 2013, like I started logging my runs up there 2013 and started adding some notes in there every now and then. And then indeed, once you can see different actions you have taken and how you have improved over time because of it, or some mistakes that you have made as well. Sure. I remember I tried to make Phil Maffetone's Clif Bars or Phil Maffetone's bars, and I tried it 2 times and I had the the craziest stomachache on my long runs, and I was like, this, I had to make a pit stop. And that was on a long run, you know. But at least I was able to add that to, like, I knew instantly, like, alright, that obviously didn't work for me, and that's what we got the training runs for.

Right, yeah, I've been there, because I've even had it for races. I go, ate too much today, drank too much before the start, don't do that again, keep to this many ounces, keep this food level. Because like you said, you get in there and you go, geez, I tried something. I just can't do it again. And thank God for Strava because I was a terrible note taker throughout my entire life. And I do it when, as soon as I get back, you have to do it right away.

Yeah.

As soon as I get back, like I did tonight, uh, ran this afternoon, I was drinking some water, having something to eat. I just sat there for 45 seconds to a minute, just typed it up like a text message, popped it in, save, and you got it. You're good to go. Good.

Yeah. That's very good. Can you talk to me a little bit about your race routines? So before you have a race, like the day before, kind of getting into it, knowing that you're gonna race the next day, and then leading up to the start, all the way through.

Yeah, so I'm very superstitious. So I finally found something that works. I will not alter it. It's just the way I am. It's, uh, right or wrong, it's just what makes me feel happy. I think, um, you know, if you always go back, I've always looked at when they interview athletes that make a Hall of Fame— like, I'm a big Yankee fan, I'm from New York— so they talk about Mariano Rivera just made the Hall of Fame. He talks about he does the same thing every time when he's warming up to come in to close the game, right? So the day before a race, I eat the same thing like I always do the night before. I have spaghetti and some meatballs, and I'll have a Gatorade and additional water. Before I go to bed, I have a little yogurt, and that's it. I go to bed. On the morning of a race, I wake up exactly 4 hours before a race starts. Wow, no matter what time— that's far. No matter, no matter what time a race starts, if it's a 7 AM race, I'm up at 3. If it's a 10 AM race, I'm up at 6. So I eat the Same thing. So I have some oatmeal, some almonds, a banana, a cup of coffee. I watch a little TV, I relax, drink a thing of Gatorade again. And then a couple hours— I had these little energy bars 2 hours before— and then I get ready to go. I dress the same. I have the— I have one bag, it's my racing gear. Everything I race in is always in that bag. As soon as the race is done, I wash it, put it back in so I know where everything is. I keep it out in the hallway at night so my wife doesn't hear me getting ready in the morning, the kids don't hear me. And I'm ready to go. I wear the same thing to every race, and then I get ready the same way. So when I'm driving to a race, I listen to the same songs, and I get there usually about an hour before a race starts. And then usually about 40 minutes prior to a race, I start a warm-up, which I usually run about 2.5 to 3 miles, get my race shoes on, and then grab a bottle of water, get to the start, do a couple in the corral areas, kind of up and downs, and then I'm ready to go. I think for me it helps because I'm so used to running at night so that when I'm doing that in the morning, both my mind and my body know I'm racing, which I think is key because there's so much that can go wrong in the race, as you know. So I do everything I can to control what I can control. So if it's a habit routine for me, I know I'm in control. I can't control the weather, I can't control something that happens. I had a friend that ran a marathon today and he told me that someone pointed him in the wrong direction. He ended up running a mile over. You can't control that type of thing, right? But how do you respond to something like that? So everything that you can control is great. I mean, the last 3 marathons I've ran, right? I ran Berlin last September. The start was 61 degrees Fahrenheit. It was warm. Boston last year, it was that monsoon. The year before that, I ran Chicago in October, it was up in the 70s and they had moderate conditions, but I can control everything that I can control. So I think both being physically and mentally prepared puts you ahead of a lot of other people, and then you just go from there. But if I got those routines down, it just helps me be better prepared.

Yeah, absolutely. And to some extent, it brings some sense of calm as well over you, right, when you know something that's previously worked, whether you have done it in previous races or whether you've done it in long runs. And it's just basically repeating of what has worked. So there's going to be as little surprises as possible over there. And whether that is the race bag that is ready, like this morning I went for a run and last night I, like, this was not a pressure run, but last night I didn't put some of these stuff ready. So at 4:00 in the morning, I had to go back into the bedroom, and one of my daughters wakes up, and it just throws the whole routine off. Whereas you, you just want to minimize whatever risk that is before a race because you want— you don't want that additional stress. The race is already stressful enough.

And definitely, because I, I've been there too, where you've gotten lost to get to a race, or somebody point you in the wrong direction, you get to corral late and you get stressed out. Like, you don't need any more stress. I mean, running is stressful enough. The last thing you want to do is run and know, where do I go? I still remember I went to a race and I didn't even know how to get to the corral. So last year when I ran Berlin, the day before I spent an hour trying to figure out how do I get to the start because everything was gated off. I go, I am not leaving until I find out because I do not want to stress out tomorrow morning. To your point, I mean, you physically— I think everybody gets enough miles in for the most part. I think the difference is between how people race and perform, whether it be a training run or a race, is how mentally prepared they are and can they adapt to anything they have no control over. I think that is the biggest key from what I've seen people do really well in a race versus people that say, "I just didn't have it today." Then when you inquire about why didn't you have it and you start talking to them, you realize things were going wrong and they didn't know how to respond. I've always found that to be a key. A routine that's always constant and I'm kind of into my own kind of thing and I'm not worried about what's going on around me at the start, I perform much better.

Yeah, talk to me a little bit more about the mental aspect. What do you do when things get tough for you in a race? How do you get through some of these tough moments?

I think it depends on the race. So if it's a shorter race, I don't like to do a lot of 5Ks It takes me out of my comfort zone. Like I said, I wasn't really a good sprinter, but I'll do 2 or 3 a year just because they, they're club runs or they help a really good charity in my area. So I'll go out and do some speed work. Like you said, like sometimes you just want some fast turnover. So when you're breathing heavy, I start going, geez, I can't do this. I'll do things along the way. I mean, mantras are always good. A lot of people talk about mantras a lot. I'm a big fan of writing things on my arm. So I do this for every marathon. The last 10K of a marathon, I put someone's name— it's usually all my family members— on my arm. So I dedicate every last mile to them. So like mile 20 is, uh, to this person, 21 to this person, this and that. So when you start struggling, your mind starts going, geez, I'm getting fatigued, my legs are getting tired, my breathing is getting heavier. You're like You watch your heart rate's going up. How do I calm down a little bit? So I just go, all right, this is for this person, and I start thinking about what that person did for me when I was training for that event. And immediately I start calming down, my heart rate goes down a little bit, um, and it's definitely worked. And then I always save the last 2 tenths of a mile for me because I think about, um, all the sacrifices we have to make as runners I mean, how often do you say like, I got to get up and do that run tomorrow, but there's a party the night before, and you either don't go or you have to leave early because you want to beat the heat and get out and run at 5 AM, and you go, geez, why did I do that? And it's for those moments when you're coming down, you see the finish line, and you go, that was all worth it. So I often do that. I write a lot of things. I'll write like on my sneakers and stuff to anybody that supported me over the course of a time period as well. I talk a lot during a race, right or wrong. People probably look at me and going, "Why is he talking?" but I will say stuff on the race to get me going, like, "Get up that hill," or things like that. I'm constantly pushing myself that way. If I see a little kid with their hand out, I'm going to high-five them. There's nothing better. That's going to be the future of running. Oftentimes during marathons, I'll try to high-five as many kids as possible. And kind of take things in that way too, because it's kind of fun. I mean, you got how many hours sitting out there, you can't just be focused completely on running the whole time. You got to kind of take it in a little bit too. So that's always a good part. But breaking everything down into chunks is obviously important for me.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that's well said. And, and I like the concept that you just mentioned about riding the names on your arms as well. I personally haven't done that one yet, but it sounds awesome actually. It sounds really something that I would probably start trying further down the line as well. Just dedicate them to different people that have been a part of your journey and yeah, or people that are special to you. That's a, that's a good one.

Yeah, it definitely helps because oftentimes if you look at my Strava account, you'll see I'll take pictures of it just so I have it on there so I can remember. I never ran an international race before. I know you and others are familiar with kilometers. I'm not. So on my other arm, when I ran Berlin, I did all the water stops and converted them to miles on my arm. So I— because I was looking at this, I go, I don't know where the water stops are. So I went and did everything. So every time I went one, I went, oh, there it is. I know exactly where the water stops is. I mentally got, everything's going to be okay. Um, and I took into like where I was going to take my gels. I'll mark them and where I'm gonna take my salt tabs, same thing. I'll mark them on my arm. So as you get fatigued and you forget forgetting things, I look down and I go, nope, now's the time. So I mean, use your body as much as you can to, I mean, you think back and like, can I make cheat sheets? You couldn't in school, but now I can when I'm running, so it makes it a little bit better, you know?

Perfect, that's good. Can you talk a little bit more about the race where you PR'd, where you ran your personal best, and what your nutritional strategy was. You said that you have a nutritional strategy for your gels and your salt pills. Can you talk a bit more about that? Sure.

So would you like to talk about a marathon? Yeah. Okay. So that would be great. My PR was in Berlin last year. So my pace for the race was a 6:34. I ended up running a little bit over. In the beginning, it was very congested. I made the mistake of zigzagging too much. It got me a little bit over. So I ran like a 26.44, um, so a couple tenths over. But what I have found over the course of years, when I first started fueling, I started doing it around a gel like every 6 miles or so, and I, and I noticed as I went along during a race, I just didn't have it for the last 10K. So the next race that I did, I said, geez, I need to improve on that. I started going down every 5 miles, and I still didn't think it was enough. Now I'm doing them every 4 And I think 4 is like a nice spot for me, um, based on the gels that I use. And then I've been using— now it depends on the heat. So if it's really hot, I'll try to do a salt tab around every 6. But if it's somewhat like an average day, which, um, or above average, I might do them around every 8. I will not take Gatorade during a race. I will only take water because that's how I train. I always have my water vest on me. I don't know what they're handing out. There's different types of Gatorades or different other types of electrolyte drinks on a course, and if I haven't practiced with it when I've practiced a pace run, then I'm not going to do it. I think it's one thing if you say I'm out doing an easy run and you're doing, say, 2 or 3 minutes more per mile than on your race run. You can easily digest something like that. But if you haven't practiced under, say, race conditions for, say, 10 to 12 miles, I'm not going to do it because I'm afraid I'll upset my stomach. So I found that about every 4 miles for a gel, 6 to 8 for a tab do really well for me.

Good. And once again, you found out because of experimentation, right? Because of experience. And this is where I think having that marathon experience and doing several of them, all of them, you learn something new again. And Yeah, you don't want to overtrain and overdo the amount of marathons that you run, but I definitely think when you have run 5 or 10 marathons versus 1 or 2, you, you see a significant difference over time.

Yeah, so from when I first started, I don't know the exact— it was between 3 hours and 40 minutes, 3 hours and 45, and then I ran Berlin last year in 2:53. So that's a definite improvement, I would say, based on just Mileage increasing. I love the heart rate thing. I can tell you one great thing about heart rate training, thinking about that improvement. I ran Chicago a year and a half ago. For anybody that's out there that's run Chicago, all the buildings in the first— gosh, between 10 or 13 miles, your satellite is not picking up. Your paces are all over the place. Someone said, what are you going to do? And I said, I know exactly what my heart rate is for exactly that pace for the first half of race. I don't need the mile markers every mile. And I look down and I go, yeah, I'm good. I kept saying 145, 146, and it would come in like 635, 640, right around there. And I go, that's why I'm heart rate training. So if you can, if you can get that pace and you know what you're capable of, and then you get your nutrition right, I think you're going to be far ahead versus some others that just do kind of random things. And they'll change things up as they go. If you're looking for an extra edge or if you're trying to do something where you're trying to qualify for Boston, you always hear people that missed out by 30 seconds. I had a friend of mine miss out by 11 seconds last year. I was at that race and I go, this is amazing, 11 seconds isn't a lot. I wonder if there was one little thing that you could have done prior to that to get you in there.

Put that 0.6 miles in at the end of every training run. That might have been the difference. Right? How do you, just from a practicality standpoint, during a race when you carry 6 or 7 gels, how do you end up carrying those and how do you go about logistics with salt pills?

Sure, I found this, I don't even know who makes it, I found this great case, it's a waist belt, it's not super skinny, um, it has enough— I would say like around like this size. It has a zipper that goes across. Yep. I'll put, I'll put 2 in there, and then on the side it's got 2 loops so I can attach 2 there. And then, um, on my side, on my shorts, um, versus the back— I used to have them in the back where I keep 2 or 3 gels, but I found shorts that have them on the right-hand side. Oh, and then I think that's a lot better. So what I've done is I'll put my salt tabs in the front part of that racing belt with a zipper because I don't want them falling out. And I don't think the ones in my shorts give me enough time to go in there and grab them. Yep. Even though I'm only going to use 3 or 4 in a race, I'll put 10 in, 10 or 12. I just grab a fistful and put them in because you never know. Last year in Boston, most of them disintegrated because of the weather. Um, every time I reached down, there isn't any there, so, um, what are you gonna do? But, um, then I will go to my pocket in my shorts And then I'll grab the ones off of my belt that hang on the side, the two that are there in the later part of a race, because they're the easiest to grab. So I figured I'm the most tired, I'm going to pop them off last. Um, so far that has worked. Um, so I'm just going to stay with it as long as it works.

You got it well down, man. You tried, like, I like that approach as well. Like kind of work your way from the back to the front or from harder accessibility to like easier accessibility. At the beginning, like when I raced, I've even started with like a gel in my hand just to kind of get the first one kind of going because I was kind of running out of space myself as well. I was typically going through about 6 gels myself as well. And yeah, there was sometimes a bit of a mission to get it right. And once again, I had a few different races where I improved over time with logistics, but it, I think it's an important one and the long training runs come in handy on that one too.

Definitely. But I think the key is too is I like to do pace runs. A couple of times a month I like to go out and do a pace run. If I'm prepping for a marathon, you get anywhere from 6 to 10 miles of a pace race. Even if I'm only going to run like 13 that day, what I like to do is bring everything I would for a marathon so my body gets used to that. My body thinks is the first part of a race, so I just start practicing with it. And I've fumbled and stumbled, and like you said, I've come to find out what's the best spot for me based on where I am in the race. So I think the practice part, no matter how long you're going to run that day, carry everything. Just have it on you. If, um, if you're running in a situation where it's colder that morning and it's going to start warming up, bring stuff. I mean, oftentimes if you're in neighborhoods, you can throw stuff to the side and come back and pick it up later. Get used to throwing stuff off. If you know you're running an October, November marathon and you're used to throwing stuff off as you go, just start doing it when you're training. Even if it's a little bit warmer, because you know if you're going to do it in the race, get better prepared. Yeah. And then I'll even run my pace runs in my racing shoes. Like, I won't even use some of my trainers, just so like my body knows this is practice, this is practice. But you got to do it in order to make sure you're comfortable prior to going to a race. So if anything does go wrong, Go ahead, I'm sorry.

No, that's a good point because the race shoes you have to get used to as well. You really do. Sometimes they're a little bit thinner sole, they're lighter, and if you don't train enough with them, at mile 20 you might get in trouble indeed.

Right. I found that through trial and error and then reading literature about what to go into with a shoe to a marathon, at least for me, Based on stuff I've read, if you break them in about 30 miles before a race, the sweet spot of the shoes that I use anyway is around 50 to 60. So if I know if I can get about 30 miles, I'm going to be right into that sweet spot during the marathon based on what they tell me. So listen, I'll take it.

It's worked so far. Yeah, perfect. That's good. You train in different training blocks for some of these different races. So you have the New York Marathon, you have the Boston Marathon.

Yep.

What does a training week for you look like? If you're starting to get towards these peak training weeks, how many times a week do you run? Do you run 6 days a week? Sometimes you do doubles? How much speed work? How much low heart rate training?

It kind of depends. I mean, this week I juggled a little bit, so I ended up getting a cold and didn't feel good, so I took 2 days off. I said, you know, sometimes I've run through, sometimes I haven't.. It just depends on how I feel. Once my legs start feeling a little off, I'll shut it down for a day or two. I'd rather be safe than sorry. But it's in a normal week. So Mondays is usually like an 8 to 10, just kind of take it easy because Sundays I usually did my long run. I just want to kind of ease back into it. Um, on Tuesdays it's usually right around like my MAF rate. So for me, so I'm 42, so I do the adjustment. So if I'm in that low to mid 140s, That's kind of my sweet spot, so I like to do that. Um, you got to have some fun. So Wednesdays I like to sprinkle in a little— I mean, I'll warm up for a couple miles. I might do a couple repeats. I might just do run a little bit, you know, kind of slow, run a little bit fast, just kind of mix it up so it's not just the same thing all the time. Maybe I'll go out and do a couple hill repeats if I'm training for something like Boston or like New York that have bridges and they got hills, so I kind of get used to that. Thursdays, back to kind of like an easy day. Now this is just an average week. There's no kids, no work assignments, no going someplace on an airplane or anything like that. Fridays, I'll try to shut it down. It just kind of depends. Just to have one day off, do some stretches and things like that. Saturday, I like to encompass some type of pace for whatever I'm training for, usually Like right now it's marathon training, so I'll go out and do some pace runs. Um, yesterday didn't happen because some guys want to go out and do the long run then, so I adapted. So today instead, I, I ran 15 and I did a 3-mile warmup and then I did the progression for the next 9 and then a 3-mile cooldown. I think for me, no matter what, if I do do some faster work, that you do a proper warmup and a proper cooldown afterwards. Oftentimes I see people just run out the door and they just go right at it. And then you see a month or two later they go, oh, I'm nursing something, my hamstring's not right, I'm not, I'm not feeling that great. I mean, luckily for me, outside of like a little fluke thing that happened last year, I've been pretty injury-free the last couple years. So I think doing the proper warm-ups and stretches and getting your body ready to go, you know, for a few miles— for me it seems to be 2.5 to 3 miles is a nice sweet spot for me just to feel like, all right, my heart rate's up and then the 140s, I'm feeling pretty good. And then, then kind of let it go. And then afterwards, just kind of enjoy it. Like, geez, I just put in a great effort. I feel pretty good. But let's kind of celebrate that a little bit. Look around. You didn't really do that for the last, like, hour or so. And, uh, kind of enjoy everything that's going on. I mean, especially on the weekends. I mean, most of the time I don't get to see the sun that much when I train. So, and the fact that I can look around and say, wow, spring is almost here, and kind of enjoy a little bit, it makes it a little bit better on the way back. But I think, uh, And not doing those, uh, kind of cool downs too fast. Just kind of making sure that everything's good and you're clearing that lactic acid out. And that, uh, when I get back to my car, um, because my— when I park out front, I just get back to like my car to open the garage door to get in. I just make sure I do a bunch of stretches before I get in and everything like that because I know once I go back in, it's, it's gonna be me and the family and, uh, going at it again. So I gotta make sure I'm ready for them too.

Yeah, yeah. The cool downs will help quite well with the overall training volume as well, that you're recovering much quicker too, right? If you would just stop running, it's gonna be much harder to get out of the door the next day.

I see it all the time, especially the cool downs. I think people have gotten better about warming up, but then I see after a race, people just go and they're either hanging out or they go to their car and leave, and I think they're missing that critical component. A couple times I've done it just based on, even for a few hours, so last week, I ran some miles, I had to go get my kids at school, came back, I had a meeting, and then I wanted to do some miles afterwards. Didn't get a time to stretch or cool down after that, and I was so stiff, and it took me a couple miles just to get going again. I go, geez, I gotta make sure I— I would have cut my time off by a mile just to stretch a little bit more. It was my fault. I mean, it's something I, I've marked down on my account just to make sure that, you know, cut it a little bit so you can stretch because Oftentimes I feel good the next day. I mean, I ran the last 3 days in about 2 days. I ran about 45 miles. I did the proper stretching afterwards. If I didn't do that, I think I would still be so stiff I wouldn't be able to run today. Anybody out there does not do that, start doing it.

It's, it's interesting because I think that there is 2 different thoughts on, on the stretching, right? Like personally, I don't, I don't stretch. I haven't stretched in 5 years and I've been injury-free for 5 years. But then again, I do very low amount of high heart rate training and I do a proper warm-up and a cool-down. I do know, on the other hand though, it's like I have a lot of people around me who have had a lot of success with it and they feel it's benefiting them significantly. And so it's one of those. Can you talk a little bit more about what kind of stretching you do and in what sort of way do you feel it benefit you?

Oftentimes if I go out before I start running, I even get my whole body into it. Think about it. You're not just using your legs. You're using your arms. You're using your back. You're using everything. So if I just reach out and then put my arms above my head and kind of reach out and just a couple of times and do some deep breaths just to kind of get some more oxygen going. Oftentimes I will say if I'm outside, I grab my car. My hand on my car, I'll do various amounts of leg stretches. So left to right, back and forward. I'll reach down and kind of touch my hands to my, uh, by my ankles just to make sure everything's kind of loose. I'll do some knee-ups to try to hit my chest just to try to get going. I kind of jump around in place a little bit too. That just helps. I mean, it only takes a couple minutes And for me, I don't know if it's a mental thing. I don't know if like it's a placebo effect where you just get going. I'm like, oh, I feel a little bit better. I'll take it. I can't do— I can't be like you. I can't do ice baths afterwards. I tried it once. It did not go over too well. It was way too much shock. I'll put some ice bags on my leg, um, if I'm really sore. But I think in lieu of that, I think stretching is just something that worked a little bit better for me. Um, so if it works, I don't want to change it. There might be a better method, but if it— I don't want to change it if it works. If it comes down to the line where it stops working, then I will look to change it.

Yeah, and I think that is one lesson that we can draw here anyways, is that whatever works for one person doesn't work for the other person necessarily. And when you're saying like, ah, I stretch and I see a lot of benefits from it, and you feel it works and it brings you benefit, perfect, you should totally do it. And personally, I don't. Or for example, for you, pasta before a race night works well. For me, I haven't had any processed carbs or refined carbs or any pasta or anything before a race. And for me, I've had a lot of veggies together with some beef and some beans, and that works for me. And so I've used that for so many different races that most probably if I try something else, it might have the same effect. But mentally, just that part, it's an important part of the whole process too, I guess.

Right, right. I hear it all the time. People say, what do you do, what do you do, what do you do? What do you do? Just stick with what you do. I mean, you're definitely gonna get problems from people. I'm not saying that you don't. But once you find that sweet spot for you, That's it.

I'm sticking to what works no matter what. Yeah, and, and not just blindly copying whatever someone else does. I've heard some people like trying the exact same things as what other people are doing, and it might not necessarily work.

I tried that once. So I tried the beet juice because I had so many people saying before a run, you got to do it, you got to do it. Okay, so I did it last year, and I did it before some training runs. I go, it wasn't bad. Let me try it for a race. Now, it wasn't a race I was committed to, it was just a race I was trying to practice with. It was last May. I never felt so awful in my life. And I go, I'm never doing that again. Yeah. So every once in a while you go, geez, am I missing out on something here? And I tried it in a couple runs, but I never did it in a pace run, and that was my downfall. And it was shame on me because I'm one that always says stick with what works, but look what happened the one time I did it last year. I go, not anymore. And that canister is still sitting there.

I haven't touched it since I'm a coach.

Lesson learned.

Lesson learned the hard way. Right there, yeah, perfect.

Yeah, well, people ask me, they're like, what do you do with speed work? I think you just get used to it. Not to say that once in a while I don't stay up till 1 in the morning 'cause I'm just on such a kick, but you wake up still with the kick going, so it's not a bad thing either.

It's just funny because you're talking about the evening routines that you're into, you're getting your evening runs in right now. I'm working on this big project outside of work, like a personal project. And every day I've been waking up right now at 3:58. And so between 4 and 6:45 before the kids wake up, I get like 2 hours 45 minutes of like basically 15 minutes of morning routine and then straight into 2.5 hours of productive time before even the kids come out, you know what I mean? And so it's a complete shift, but I have to be in bed by like 9 o'clock, I'm gonna be wrecked.

So that's the hard part. Yeah. And then sometimes when I do those doubles, I know, so if I get up and like run at like 6:00 AM, that by 3:00 in the afternoon my body's not used to it and I start getting a little bit tired and I go, yeah, yeah. I'm like, geez, I go, I gotta start moving again.

I have noticed the more consistent you're able to go to bed and wake up at the same time, the more that becomes the norm. And to me it screws me up if all of a sudden I go like, sometimes I have Every Friday I'm trying to send out a newsletter and if on Thursday night I don't have it done yet and I end up having to work till like 11, 12, 1 o'clock, it screws up the whole system, you know what I mean? Like what you were saying, if you have a party at night and you end up going to it.

So in the wintertime I like to run in the afternoon because that's the warmest part of the day. I don't want to wake up— like today it was 5 degrees at 8 AM. I'm not going to go run outside. So I want to run outside as much as possible to get the hills, get acclimated to being outside and everything. But in the summer, you want to beat the heat, so then I have to flip it. So especially when you do your long run, so, you know, when you go out 5 AM, 6 AM, I go, oh geez, I'm not— I got to get going here, I got to get going. And then next thing you know, it's, you know, you get back at 8:30, 9 o'clock, the kids are ready to go, and you just ran 20 miles, and your legs are tired, and they're like jumping on you like, hey, let's go. Like, you got to give me a minute. You gotta just give me a minute. I always tell my wife, her name's Lindsay, and I go, Lindsay, you gotta give me 5 minutes. I go, I gotta take a shower. Let me just stretch my legs a little bit. Let me just lay down. I found that there was some literature on it too, that, um, if you rest for an hour after your long run, how much more marked improvement you have.

Oh, I bet.

I bet. Um, no, the other thing I didn't say when we were talking that I think is big too, that I've been really focusing on this year for the last, you know, the second half of last year into this year is form. I remember reading an article after the Rio Olympics where they said that Shalene Flanagan should have won versus coming in 6th because technically she was faster, but her arm angles were only in the 50%, like coming back, and her bobbing up and down was costing her time. So she actually ran farther than the women that podiumed. Wow. And I go— and I noticed it. So I started doing this, you know, kind of drills with my arms going like this and just kind of running the same pace and how I normally was, and then started swinging my arms more, how much faster I was going for the same pace. It's just my leg started— the cadence started picking up. That's like, geez, there's some— there's— that's one thing I like about running, like I get geeked out by science stuff. It's just because I have an engineering and business degree, so I get geeked out by that stuff. So I go, there's so many nuances. That's why I like heart rate training, like the biofeedback stuff and all the stuff that you can just go, wow, there's some pretty cool stuff in here science-wise that you can do. Then when you start doing it and I go, man, you guys are right. I'm like, I'm glad they put these articles out because I would have thought they like— they, they took photos of her form and showed the angles and then showed everybody else.

It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, and those are all the tweaks that can make quite a difference if you do it over 26.2 miles, whereas once again, in the short term, it might not be much of a difference.

Right, that and the tangents. I've— because I kept looking at my watch versus everybody else, I go, geez, I keep running farther. I wasn't running the tangents very well, so I really have tried to map out what's the best route when I'm running along the way. Like, don't zigzag, stick to the tangents.

It's better off in the long term. But one, one part that I've noticed that's important with that though is being able to stand pretty much to like towards the front of your corral. Yeah, because whenever you start towards the back, you're zigzagging regardless because you can have slower people in front of you, especially when you, you have a certain goal pace that's rather aggressive. Um, and you have to run 0.3 miles extra, that's like Well, 2 minutes right there.

They did that in Berlin. So I was in the 2:50 to 3-hour corral, and the 3-hour pacers got to the front of the corral. So everybody was behind them like geese, and we were trying to get around them, and that's why I ran 0.2 over. So I remember getting to the halfway point, my watch went off, and I still had another 0.2 to go. I got on that blue line afterwards and probably ran that true afterwards. I just spent so much time zigzagging.

I've made it a point that I go to a thrift store before a race. I'll buy an outfit, so I'll buy like an old pair of jogging pants and I'll buy a running, or like just a long sleeve shirt. I'll try to stand as close as possible within reason within my corral. And as much as I've warmed up beforehand, I will make sure that I'm one of the earlier guys in the corral. 5 minutes before the gun goes off, I'll take off my clothes, do a few in-position warm-up jogs or whatever. Okay. And I take the first mile about 20 seconds slower than what my actual pace is gonna be those first few miles. Okay. And just to kind of warm up into it. Okay. And I've noticed that 20 seconds that you slow down that first mile, but at least you're standing in front of the slower people. Saves you later. Saves you later, it really does, because you're not zigzagging for 2 minutes around it.

That's a good idea. How much do you, how many miles do you usually run before a race in terms of warming up?

Probably about what you were doing, like 2, 2.5. I try not to do much more than that, but it takes me typically, like you were saying as well, about 3 miles to warm up, but then again, I kind of in a race use those first few miles as well to truly put the brakes on it a little bit. 'Cause you're like a happy dog in a cage that just wants to run. You just gotta put the brakes on and know that you're gonna need it at mile 20.

[Speaker] Sure, 'cause I know, so for Bryn Llyn last year, we were a mile from the start, I ran to the start, just like a slow jog, got in there, and then it was right in the park. You've been to Central Park, I know, in New York City, so it was just kinda like starting there. And I just sat by a tree for like an hour, and then I just ran a little bit, got right to the front. And these— those guys, to your point, I'll probably do that next time for Boston. But then those guys wedged in front, it was— I go, they can't be doing that, because all of us around us is like, what are they doing? Yeah, yeah. But what are you gonna do? They have special treatment, you know. It's, you know, it's a big race. So, but I'm gonna try that thing. I'll see if I can get there like 20 or 30 minutes beforehand for like Boston, as long as the weather cooperates.

Yeah, I will tell you this about the weather cooperating. Go back through one of my previous podcasts and watch the end of what Pete Kostelnick was saying about Boston weather. It was so funny because he's basically saying like, you have a plan A, but make sure you have a plan B, C, D, and E as well. Because he said, for example, at Boston, yeah, you can have a plan that the weather is going to be good, but 9 out of 10 years, the weather at Boston is going to be shit. And it's so true because I ran it in 2015. And no joke, we had like 20 to 30 miles headwind the entire time. So it's one of those, it just seems like every year people are hoping for better weather, like, ah, hopefully next year. It's like, good luck, man, it's Boston in April.

The only person, so I have a good friend of mine, he ran New York City last year, and I was so jealous. They had 45-degree weather, no wind, everybody was PRing. I go, well, of course you did. I go, I've been praying for that for years and I never get it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or if the wind in Boston would be the other way around, you got 20 miles an hour wind in the back, that would be amazing too.

But so the next day we were leaving, so on that Tuesday my wife and I were driving and it was a west wind, it's like 15 miles an hour, it was cloudy, it was in the 40s. I go, why couldn't we have the race today? Yeah, what are you gonna do? Nothing.

You can't do anything about it. Exactly. You can't control what you can't control.

No, I remember I was sitting there in the village in the beginning. I looked at this guy, he's shivering, he's like this. I go, you having as bad a time as me? He goes, I'm from Florida. He goes, I haven't run anything in less than 55-degree weather this entire training block. I just looked at him like, good luck, man.

Yeah. I want to be very respectful of your time. I think we've almost been talking for an hour already here. I would like to close it off with There's a lot of people in our audience who wanna run a sub-3-hour marathon, they wanna qualify for Boston, or they wanna run a marathon PR. Do you have any advice for people who are currently not there yet, but they're truly looking to improve to get there?

Sure, I think I've been there, we've all been there. You start at some place, and then things go on, whether it be positive or negative, but we always think about the negatives. Don't let that deter you from anything that happens. So say you went out and I'll just give example. Say you ran out and you need a 3:05 to qualify for Boston and you ran a 3:20 and you start getting down on yourself. You know how many people would kill for a 3:20 just that are out there running? So think about all the good things. If 1% of the population runs a marathon, there's not that many people that can run a 3:20. So I think that's Always think about the good aspects that could happen, um, and just say like, that's a snapshot in time. What am I going to do from that snapshot in time to get me prepped for the next one? I think too is like what we've discussed over the last hour or so is that come up with some type of routine for you that works. So whether it be a training program, like you and I obviously like that heart rate training, so stick with the heart rate training. It might take you longer than somebody else, but stick with it because it works. Then making sure that you have the proper gear. One of the things that we didn't talk about that I learned was that I was running in shoes that the drops were too much. I was running 3 to 4s and I remember getting hurt in a race. Now I'm up to drops that are 9 and 10 and I've responded much better to them. Everybody always says shoes, shoes, shoes, which is important, but 2 things: find the proper ones for you not just because it's a brand or it's a fad that's going on right now, but make sure you find the proper ones. I'd rather spend more money on a properly fitted shoe than ones that are cheaper and are gonna do me harm. So that's just me. And then once I find a brand and a style that works, I've got 12 pairs of shoes in my closet right now. So I always hear people say, this is my favorite pair of shoes, they don't have it anymore, I don't know what to do. If you find a shoe that works, buy as many pairs as possible because you never know when that style is going to upgrade to the next level. So all these different Adidas, Nike, they all do it. They go, oh, we're going to make the 4, the 5, the 6, and everyone complains they weren't as good as the 3rd. So, um, just go buy as many as you can. Find a group, find a support group. There's so many people. If you haven't joined a running club, there's running clubs all over. My club is great. It's— I— gosh, there's hundreds of members in it. There's always something going on. There's always so many people that are rooting you on, cheering you on. We had our banquet last night. There's always people to run with, which is, which is really good because you find so many people at your level, learn from each other, um, go out for runs together, support each other, because then you can go on the journey with someone with you. That's even better. And then, uh, make sure you got that support at home too. I mean, I couldn't do this without my wife and kids. And the rest of my family. They support, they come, they cheer me on, whether it be on at a race, on social media, um, they're always kind of rooting me on. And so you go, geez, I got everything I need. I got support at home, I got my friends and my club that are behind me, I've got my routine down, I got my training down. You're at the race and you're ready to go. You can't control the weather, some of the other things, you can't control the water stations, but if you're 90% there there's so much more you can do. And then once you get into a race, the muscle memory and that everything you've been working towards, it just, all of a sudden you just get to the end like, I did it. And that's awesome. It's just awesome. So that's what running has done for me.

Yeah, and then it's all worth it indeed. It's a lot of effort that you put into it, but yeah, it's that whole journey towards it, you gotta find that way to enjoy it. And then celebrate once you do it.

[Speaker] Oh yeah, and it's a long journey, but I think like we talked about before is that always set just a couple realistic goals for the year. Things can happen, your job, your family, you might get sick and you have to take a couple days off, it's okay. So if you only pick a couple and you're a few months out, you have room to make it up and room to adapt, and so you're not getting caught up in, oh my God, I want to sign up for this race, 6 weeks out. If you'd identify where you want to be earlier in the year, you can set that up and then just go along and take the good with the bad. I mean, running can be a grind. I mean, no one's going to deny it. It's months and miles and weathers and all the things we have to deal with. But, um, once you get to the end and realize where you started to where you finished, it's just that much better. I'm, I'm being there with everybody that supported me along the way, so it makes it better. So it's kind of like a celebration at the end to get me across that line.

Absolutely.

Well said. Thanks so much for considering me and reaching out to me and stuff like that. I mean, I tell my wife, she goes, who's this guy? I go, if it wasn't for him and me finding his article, I wouldn't have qualified for Boston.

Awesome. Well, I'm glad that we're both able to help each other out in some way or another. Right. The beautiful part about running, everyone is helping each other out. Yeah. And that's why I think it's so good. We can all learn from each other. Like, I learned from, from different runners every every single day, and that's the beauty of this community. I think everyone giving back that way.

So I think so, because that was one of the things I tell people. I said running is an individual sport, but it's also a team sport. Yeah, it's a weird thing because there's so many people that you can train with, work out with, do all these things. But I've had it where I'm running against somebody. I had a good friend of mine, we were running against each other, but 2 days apart, and he was ahead of me in a race. And then I came up to him, I could tell there was something wrong. I'm like, you okay? It's like, yeah, my side's kind of hurting, this and that. I went up and then I started struggling. He came by, you okay? So we're competing, but at the same time we're asking how each other's doing. So that's kind of a cool thing. And then we ran afterwards and everything's— once the race is over, you're like, you're friends again, you know? So, but, uh, I've seen so many people stop, help, and do things along the way. I'm like, man, this is a really cool sport.

I'm so glad I got into it. Yeah, absolutely. Same here, man. What is the, the best way for people if they want to check out some of out some of your runs. Would Strava be the best place for that?

Yeah, definitely. Yep, they can check me out on there for sure.

Cool, so I'll make sure, I'll write a blog post with some of the show notes from this interview and I'll make sure to link to your Strava in there as well.

Yeah, and then if anybody puts anything in the comments or things like that, they wanna ask me questions, I'll definitely connect with them that way too.

Awesome, perfect. Thank you so much, man, really appreciate it.

Thank you, Floris, you're welcome. Glad to be here.

Thank you for watching. If you enjoyed this video, please make sure to give it a thumbs up and subscribe. I want to end this video with a 2-minute running clip by Path Projects. My friends and I have been spending a lot of time lately on the trail to film this little video with Billy Yang, and I just want to share it here because I thought some of you might enjoy this beautiful trail running footage as well. All right, have a good one.

It's a simple question. Why do we run?

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