How to Run a Sub 3 Marathon with Jessica, Kelley and Gwen | Extramilest Show #12

I think that's an interesting takeaway too. When you're at the end of a marathon and all you want to do, because your mind's telling you to stop, it's like, try going faster. Because really what you need is just to change. Your legs need some kind of change. And so practicing that and just mentally wrapping your head around the fact that you're not going to die if you do that. And if it backfires, then you, you know, you pull back.

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of The Extra Mile Show. My name is Floris Gierman and today we're talking to 3 incredible women. Jessica Dorsey, Kelly Puckett, and Gwen Ostrowski. All 3 of them recently ran a sub-3-hour marathon, anywhere between a 2:59 and a 2:54. In today's episode, we're going to discuss what their training looked like, their speed work, their long workouts, even their cross-training. We're also gonna talk about their actual race strategy and the execution on race day. How they overcame tough spots throughout their training and during the race as well. And these 3 women have a lot of advice for other athletes as well looking to go after a sub-3-hour marathon, a Boston qualifier, or a marathon PR. All of the show notes of today's episode can be found on my website extramilest.com, and I'll make sure to include links to all of their Strava accounts as well so you can see the breakdown that they ran mile by mile. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Extra Mile Show.

Just want to say congrats, you guys just all killed it over at CIM Marathon. You all ran a sub-3-hour marathon. And, um, yeah, I want to hear all about the day of the race. Before we do, maybe you guys can talk a little bit more about your running experience and also how you trained for the race kind of leading up to this. So maybe we start with you, Jess.

Sure. Um, so this CIM was my 10th marathon, um, and it was a PR by a minute and a half. So I've done sub-3 before, uh, but just last year. So, um, been running kind of my whole life, sometimes more seriously than others, but, um, really, I don't know, just Yeah, mostly just marathons, no ultras or anything crazy.

What was, um, when you look at this race, what was your training volume like? Like what kind of mileage did you run?

Um, so every other marathon that I've done before, I've trained like low mileage. So anywhere between like 15 and 35 miles a week. Um, so this is the first time I've done more than that and first time I've had a coach. Starting out, we were just kind of building up. I had been about 20 to 25 miles, so that's kind of where we started end of summer and got up to— I think my highest week was like 58 miles. So that was kind of my volume.

So that was almost double what you usually train?

Yes, totally. Yeah.

How was that different? Did you feel in different shape? Did you feel—

Yeah, I felt totally different. And honestly, like, not good different. I was like not confident or excited going into the race because while I had done low volume before, it was like high intensity. So like every week I could— I knew exactly how fast I was and I was just going intense all the time. And I like that. And I was like also able to maintain like a lot of lifting and other stuff because my volume was so low. So I felt like really strong in the past and fast, and this time Um, he— my coach didn't let me do like any workouts, not even like lactate threshold workouts until like maybe halfway through the cycle. So even that stuff, whereas before like my 800 reps would be like balls to the wall, as fast as you can go, a nice long rest interval and maybe only 5 reps, this time he'd be like, your 800s are going to be at like 6:30 pace and you're just going to do them with 45 seconds rest until you can't do them anymore. So I would do like 17:800, like not very fast. So I didn't like it, um, but I guess it got me there.

Right on.

It worked.

Yeah, something to be said for the aerobic stuff.

How about you, Kelly?

So the marathon was a very late choice for me. Um, I had spent a lot of last year working on the marathon and, and, and trying to get faster, which And I've been running for many years, but after I qualified for Boston the first time, I just really didn't care about speed. I went into kind of ultra marathons. And, um, so last year I'd spent a lot of time working on the marathon and, uh, took off some time when I did Mountains to Beach and then was planning on doing Ventura and I fractured my foot. So I was bummed because I'd given up a lot of other races, you know, last year, but you know, it happens. So I was injured, fractured my other foot, and then I'd gotten into CCC over the summer, so that was my big race that I was training for. Maybe just to explain to the audience, which is, uh, which is 100K that starts in Chamonix, um, or actually it starts in Courmayeur, Italy, but it ends in Chamonix. Um, and it was a dream race for me. Um, so it's a lot of climbing, so I spent the summer going to Baldy and focusing on hiking and getting in some altitude. And so when I finished the race, I traveled around for a couple weeks and felt really good. My body felt really good and I felt energized coming off the race. And I did, I think at the end of September, my first partial road run that, you know, and I hadn't really done anything on road since last year and felt like I had a little bit of the speed back. And so Jess was running CIM and I'm like, well, I don't have much time to train for this. I'm not sure if it's a good idea. But I did my first long road run with her in October, mid-October, and jammed together a schedule. I think I did 70% of my runs on the treadmill for this race.

Was that also because that was easier on the body, or—

I think it was convenient. I have a gym where I work, and so I did all my tempo runs. For me, it was about getting in 3 runs a week that really were quality runs for training, which was a tempo run, some kind of speed workout, and then the long run, which I think the biggest learning has been that your long run has to be a workout too. I think when you first start out in marathoning, it's long slow distance is your, your road run, and that was something I realized last year was that run actually has to be a training run too, and it has to have purpose. So I really just focused on those 3, you know, runs every week and then cross-training, all the stuff I still love to do, and try not to sacrifice that, and keeping, you know, strong and trying to stay healthy.

The difference was that you already had quite a, quite a base coming off.

Yeah, that's what was surprising too, is just even the work that I'd done last year, that doesn't go away. Like, you don't necessarily start back to where you were, but once you've built that base and once I think you've learned how to run faster, that's something that does stick with you. And I think partially maybe that's a mental thing, that you get to that point where you accept and understand that you can push for harder speeds. Um, so I think maturing as a runner is, you know, a big part of it, and just realizing, hey, this is a possibility. So yeah, it was kind of a weird training cycle, but much different from you.

Yes, you had a proper plan for several months out.

Yeah. And in fact, we did some of our long runs together and we were doing completely different, different things.

Yeah, right on. All right, Gwen, now I'm curious to hear your story.

So I don't know if I've told you this before or not, but in high school I was sprinter and a hurdler. So I ran my first marathon pretty early though in college, just because I was living in Chicago and there was a lot of excitement. And I ran just over 4 hours, which is a pretty good first marathon time, I think. Um, and then since then, I don't know how many I've run, probably 25, maybe more. Um, but the majority of them were all in that 3:30 to 4-hour range. And so once I realized I had kind of plateaued at around 3:30, it was like 5 or 6 years ago, I just said, I'm not running another marathon until I properly train. Because none of those— it was just trying to put in a little more effort without actually doing anything different. Um, so I just kept running the same time. Um, and for a very long time, I believed that tempo runs and the long, harder runs were just too hard for me because I just told myself I'm a sprinter, so maybe I can do 5Ks or even a 10K, but I just can't connect on the speed with the distance. So I just didn't do it for a long time. And then about a year and a half ago, I had two friends and I actually don't remember how we decided to train for a marathon, but we decided to do it together. And so that was my first time doing actual tempo runs. Trying to do speed with distance. And doing it with other people sort of gave me the courage to try. And I still think, you know, one of those workouts when I failed, I was probably a little bit hard on myself. But that training cycle a year and a half ago went pretty well. I felt like I had trained for about a 3:10 marathon. Made mistakes on race day, so I did not achieve that goal. Um, but then when I decided to try again for CIM, um, I decided to go for 3:05 because I felt like I could add on to what I had already done. Um, and then I also had, I guess, more confidence to do the training on my own since I didn't know that I would have people to do my tempo runs or long hard runs with. Um, and with those runs, I then also just gave myself permission to fail. I said, just go out and start it and try and like, don't give up partway through the workout because your legs don't feel good or you feel tired. Just keep pushing and see what happens. Like, even if, you know, people are watching on Strava and see that you messed up your workout or whatever, just don't worry about it. Just try. And then I was pleasantly surprised. I actually, the whole training cycle, I kept waiting for the really bad workout or to fail, and it never really happened.

That's good.

It just kept going okay. And so I just kind of kept going and kept going and then Through the training cycle, people watching and kind of rooting for me kept telling me that I needed to go for sub-3, and I resisted up until 4 weeks before. And kind of like the long training run that Kelly was talking about, where you need to have a long training run that's a workout, I set a workout for myself, and I said, if I can accomplish this workout, then I'll go for a sub-3.

I remember even not that long before it, indeed, you were still like, eh, 3:05.

And I was being honest.

Everyone around you was saying like, oh, you should be able to get on the sub-3, like what you're training at right now.

Yeah, people were telling me it for a long time and I just, I wasn't ready to accept that as my goal. And some people even said, oh, like, don't lie to me, I know that's your secret goal. I said, no, really, it's still 3:05 up until 4 weeks before, and then I changed my goal.

Good, I'm glad you did.

Thanks.

Can you guys talk a little bit about like, I think the long run and the workouts like the hard workouts, the speed work, were a very important part of your training, and some of the things that seems to be that you've done differently now in this training cycle than some of your previous ones. Can you describe what some of your longer workouts look like, or some of your speed work, like in training leading up to it?

So this is the first time I didn't really have longer workouts, so I used to do the same plan kind of that Kelly threw together, it's the Runner's World Run Less, Run Run Faster program, which most people say you can't run sub-3 on that, it's like crazy. But no, 2 people did, and I followed it like strictly. I did not do any extra runs on it. So, um, on that I definitely did the longer, harder runs where the last 20-miler of the program is 20 miles at goal marathon pace plus 10 seconds per mile. So if you're going for 2:59. That last 20-miler is at like 7 flat, and it's so hard.

What was the time you were aiming for this year?

Yeah, um, I wasn't really sure. So last year I ran 2:55, and of course like you always want a PR, but honestly like I didn't even think— like I was worried that I wouldn't be able to hit my time from last year on the training that I was doing this year. Um, like a lot of these workouts that they're saying like gave them confidence, like I wasn't nailing my tempo runs. Like I felt really tired from just the volume of training I was doing, even with kind of not as much, um, not as much intensity. I was just like tired. If I had— if my coach told me, okay, 10 miles tempo, um, you know, 6:30 to 6:40 pace, I would close to hit it, but I might not do the last 2 miles. That would be with some stoplights mixed in. So I was like really worried, like, okay, I can't hit this pace, you know, even without Brit. And so it was just like kind of messing with me. But then I did a half marathon. When was that? We all did the same half. It was October, and I ran 1:23 high, which was a huge PR for me. And I just like, even that, I was like, well, there was so much downhill. Like, I just like didn't think that I was ready. So I think like a couple days before, even maybe the day before, I was really like, no, like you have to shoot for PR. Like you have to at least go for it. I was reading this book and it talked about, you know, having concrete goals as opposed to wishy-washy ones. And so I was like, okay, like you're gonna go for 2:55. Like you're gonna set yourself up at the half to hit that. And so I did. But yeah, I wasn't really until like right before I had, I just didn't know what I was capable of with this total. This is just so different from anything that I'd done before. Yeah.

And then speed work, what were you—

so speed work, um, most of my workouts, like I think in September I started, like mid-September I started doing threshold workouts. So it was like either mile repeats or 800s every other week. They'd rotate. It was like getting so bored. And they were not fast. Like, I love to run fast, so like they were, you know, at threshold pace, like very short rest, so you get tired from the volume of it as opposed to the intensity. So that was kind of my speed work until then. I think the week after the half marathon, he started giving me like a VO2 max workout every other week, and like that was just so fun. I was so, so excited for that because I love that. So that's what I was doing for speed work, and then all my long runs were just long slow distance, like easy until— I think I did one long run before CIM that was like the last 4 miles like a fast finish. So easy 10, last 4 at like 6:10 to 6:15 pace, so that was really hard.

So you have to train yourself to keep energy until the end and then be able to dig deep.

Yeah.

Those are heavy.

For sure.

Yeah.

How about you, Kelly?

Um, I think like to Gwen's point, what I really learned in the last few years is that you have to— if you want to get faster, you have to train faster. You have to have a somewhat of a prescribed plan in there with certain workouts. However, I'm also a big believer in doing something that works with who you are and what makes you excited to run and works with your personality. Because I know like you've done the Mephitone and had great success with it, with heart rate training and all of that. I think you have to find something— at the end of the day, we all have jobs. This is something we do on the side that still gets you excited, that doesn't make you lose your mind. So I kind of took pieces of what Jen was— Jess was talking about with, you know, less mileage. However, I still did some trail running. I did my tempo, I did my speed workout, and I did my long run every week. And then I I think I mentioned earlier I love to go and box, so I still did that 2 to 3 times a week because I really enjoy it. Sometimes I skipped my track or speed workout for that, and I really did feel like it was an equivalent because it was working me out in the same way. I felt the same way, and you know, just using different muscles. But the tempo to me is always a very important run, and I did a ton of it on my treadmill at work at lunch. The great thing about speed is you're done fast. The bad thing about speed is it hurts while you're in it. But I could go at lunch, do 10 miles, and be back at my desk an hour and a half later.

So what was a typical 10-mile pace-wise looking like?

I think I was usually, I was usually around the 6:45 mark, 6:45 to 6:50. So it was really just holding that race pace. Because it was a treadmill, I would always rotate, I would take the hill up and down, play with the speed. So it wasn't consistent, but averaging out to where I wanted it to be. So I Tried to simulate the road, but I'm a huge treadmill fanatic. I always have been. I'm that person who could go and sit on a treadmill for hours and hours at a time and not completely lose my— it's not ideal, but I don't mind it. And so because it was convenient, I used that a lot. And then, you know, for the long runs, like Jess said, it was just the holding paces, or the last few I rotated between a little bit slower race pace every 3 miles or so, and then at the end would add in some kind of all-outs for 30 seconds. And again, training your body to be a little bit more efficient. And, and honestly, the strange thing was, I think, I think Jimmy said this to me at one point, is sometimes it feels better to go faster at a certain point. Like, your, your mind tells you to go slower because you're tired, but sometimes your body just needs a change. And so when I would do those pushes at the end of a workout, Yes, it hurt in some capacity, but my legs actually felt better pushing a little bit because you're in the same mode the entire time. So I think that's an interesting takeaway too when you're at the end of a marathon and all you want to do, because your mind's telling you to stop, it's like try going faster. Because really what you need is just to change. Your legs need some kind of change. And so practicing that and just mentally wrapping your head around the fact that You're not gonna die if you do. And if it backfires, then you pull back, but it is, it's true, sometimes your legs just need something else.

Mix it up. I think you made a really good point earlier about the importance of having fun in your training. In whatever way, shape, or forms that come together, whether that is going all out, like going all in on the running part, or if you're able to find the cross-training that that suits you, whether that is boxing or biking, swimming, running. Like, at least you're having fun doing it.

Yeah, you don't want to dread it, otherwise it's gonna beat you up for sure, more than it does.

Yeah, exactly. How about you, Gwen?

Um, so my fun is doing VO2 max workouts at the track. So actually, the training plan I was using, I was not supposed to do VO2 max workouts every week, but I did, um, every week I did. I don't think I missed a week at all. Even if I was doing a tune-up race later that week, I think I still did my track workout. Um, the one thing I changed about my track workouts though is I slowed them down a little bit. So they were still well within the VO2 max zone, I'm sure. But because I do my track runs with a group, you know, 95% of the time, what people have a tendency to do is that last interval, instead of doing it at the prescribed pace of like 5K pace or slightly faster than 5K pace, everyone just puts it all out there and just like eeks out every last drop because then you feel exhausted and it kind of feels good and you have that really fast mile time that you feel good about. Um, but then you're ridiculously fatigued the next day and maybe even 2 days later for a very, very, very small return. So I started just staying very controlled on that last interval, letting everyone fly by me. Um, so then I found I could get in an extra workout that week. So then I did pretty much like every other week I would work in either a tempo run of up to 7 miles, um, or a run with up to 12 race pace miles in it. So I think like one of my confidence boosting runs was when I did a 16 miler with 4 miles of warmup and then 12 miles at race pace. I was treating race pace as slower then, um, because I was still going for 3:05. Um, but still, I just, doing that run, I felt tired, you know, at about 6 miles into race pace. And I'm like, okay, I have to do 6 more at this pace, but I could stop and like, you know, get some water, go home, or I could just see what happens. And then I would just push and keep pushing and think about my form and lifting my knees and basically being a robot, just keep moving the exact same way. And. I finished the workout. I did collapse like on the floor in my living room, like watched a like puddle or maybe a lake of sweat develop on my stomach. But, um, so those were probably my key workouts, I think.

So being able to, to push your comfort zone out and so it kind of becomes longer that way during some of those workouts. What's interesting, both Jessica mentioned it and you're mentioning it, not going all out on some of the speed work. And I've had similar experiences too where initially I would go for broke and I would try to run really fast speed work, yet your recovery takes much longer.

Exactly.

Whereas even if you're 30 seconds faster or 45 seconds faster than marathon pace and do repeats on that, whether it's 400, 800, you already get a lot of benefits and you're teaching your body like a fast turnover.

You don't have to run that fast. Like, you don't have to run, you know, you're all out on the track.

Yeah.

And I know like Jess loves the track. Yeah, I know you love the track. I don't love the track. So the thing that excites me is I'm like, all I have to do is hold that tempo, and I know I don't have to run a 5-minute mile. I just know I have to run that 6:50 or whatever it is and just hold it. So I'm like the opposite of— I don't want to be on the track.

Um, let's talk about nutrition for a little bit. Um, we'll get to the race eventually, but what kind of nutrition worked for you during, just during the week on your normal days, but also throughout like longer workouts? Was there anything that you did different this time, or how, how would nutrition look like?

Um, I feel like I shouldn't share. I don't want anyone to copy my nutrition.

No, but this is all like good information.

It's not good. Um, I, I guess, um, I just, I like sugar a lot. Uh, I think, yeah, I don't have anything really positive to add. I tried like a couple weeks before, or maybe just a week before, like trying to get like a lot more quality stuff. And I guess maybe I'm not as bad as I think, like instead of just regular pancakes I'll do Kodiak cakes. But like my schedule's all crazy and I have kids and I don't like cook a lot, so it's usually just like stuff that I can eat fast. Like I'll joke with my husband and I'll send him a picture, like I call it Real Food Friday. I'll try to eat like a healthy salad or like eggs or something instead of like my usual cereal and pancakes and oatmeal, but it's pretty bad. But if I feel like I'm getting sick or if I have a race, I will try to eat more smoothies. And I do like before, like if I have a really serious workout, I'll make sure the night before I'll have kind of like my pre-race meal, which would be like sweet potatoes and salmon.

Sweet potatoes and salmon?

Yeah, that's like my go-to.

That's your go-to? Yeah.

Um, but in general, I kind of just eat what's quick and—

We all, we all have lives and that's one part of it. Yeah. As much as we all love to eat extremely healthy, it's not easy.

Yeah, I know. It's something that's like definitely that I need to really nail that down, um, in recovery. Like I'll sometimes finish workouts at the gym and then I have to like rush to school pickup and I'll realize like I don't end up eating lunch or like anything for a couple hours after my workout. So that's really bad and I know that doesn't help with recovery. So it's like my calories are maybe not the best and not like, you know, a lot in the morning and then a lot at night. So I find like my energy is kind of all over the place. So that's something like a needs improvement that I think that once I get that down maybe my training will be even better. But for now, please don't copy me.

How about you, Kelly?

Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I'd say the strange thing about— or not even strange— I've been a vegetarian since I was 10. I'm the only one in my family of 6, and I just don't know why I refuse just to eat meat. And I remember at the time I didn't know many vegetarians, or any, and I always used to get, "You can't play sports if you're not eating meat." So I actually think it's been a great thing because I eat a lot more vegetables and I've tried a lot more foods than I would have ever tried if I wasn't. But that can be challenging. And then from a running standpoint, and Jess will make fun of me, but I don't take nutrition with me on most of our training runs, or any of my training runs. Rarely even take water. I am a bit of a camel and I can go a long way without food. And I will say, and my dad's the same way, I've— but I, you know, I think just a long life of playing sports and being on the soccer field my entire life where we weren't taking a lot of breaks, I think I just got used to that. I will say a lot goes— a little goes a long way on race day because I'm not used to it and my body's just used to being able to work on its own. So when I start taking in calories, which I always do during the race, I try to take, you know, 150 or so per hour. It's, it's huge, you know, it is a huge difference. So that's something I have to dial into, but I just don't love carrying stuff in runs, and I pretty much know if I'm in that 20-mile range, I can go without it.

So even on your 20-milers, you don't take any water or No, really? Wow.

No. So I did take a Gatorade to my treadmill 21-mile run. I felt really proud of myself.

Fair enough.

But yeah, that's just like my quirky, quirky thing. But I swear on race day when I am taking it down, it, it actually just works really well because I'm not used to doing it.

Because you're body actually—

I don't know, I wouldn't try it, but Your body actually likes the calories. Yeah, it works.

How about you, Gwen?

So on a daily basis, I guess I did try to think a little bit about cutting out sort of like unnecessary sugar or things like that. I have a very big weakness for ice cream. So I think this training cycle, I, you know, maybe had 2 scoops of ice cream over 18 weeks, but like I can definitely just eat a whole pint of Ben and Jerry's cherries at once. So that was— I just had to go cold turkey so that I wouldn't do that. And that was more about just like not wanting to have unnecessary weight gain. Um, but then I didn't really think about much else. And I like Kelly, I guess I've, I've been vegetarian a lot. I'm not right now, so I probably ate meat like once a week just to try to get a little bit of extra protein. Um, and then I did practice race day nutrition a little bit on some of my longer runs. I don't think I ever took more than 2 gels on a training run though. Um, but what I did try to do is treat some of the, particularly like Saturday long runs, sort of as races. So I would get up instead of, you know, half an hour before going out the door, I'd get up an hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes before the run and like make coffee, have breakfast, and do something that resembled what I was gonna do on race day, just to kind of get into that prep of like knowing when you're gonna go to the bathroom and like how is your stomach gonna feel on that food. Um, and I tested the Clif gels because I knew that's what they were gonna have at CIM, and I wanted to be able to just take what they had on the course instead of carrying 5 gels with me. Um, so yeah, I tested those. They seemed okay. That's pretty much all I thought about food or nutrition the whole time.

It's nice to be able to test some of that though. You feel more confident, it seems, going into a race once you've gone through the cycles a few times.

Yeah. And I'd had Clif gels in ultras before and my stomach felt a little off, but I didn't know if it was from the Clif gels or from the ultra.

So it's a gamble.

So I think I'm actually fine with Cliff Gels.

So it worked.

Yes.

There you go. So you guys all went into the race with a certain goal in mind. What was your race strategy? Did you have anything in particular with, ah, this pace is something I wanna run at, this heart rate I wanna run at, or I'm gonna go by feel? How did you go into the race day and how did it actually play out? Play out for you on race day?

So I had settled on my goal, and my biggest strategy going into a race is not going out too fast. So, you know, in 10 marathons, like, I've really learned how your body feels at the end and how you can finish if you don't go out too fast. So that's just kind of a number one thing. But I also, at the same time, don't want to be too stuck on a pace because last year I thought on a good day I can run 6:49, 6:50 pace. I was shooting for that 2:59, but, and obviously when you start a marathon, it's going, you're going to feel comfortable and you should feel comfortable even if you're running race pace. So, but you don't want to feel too comfortable. So when you're feeling really good, don't be afraid to, you know, pick it up a little bit. So I did that and it really paid off last year. So this year I went into it saying, okay, don't run any faster than 6:40 this first half. And so I pretty much stuck to that, like 6:40, 6:45.

And that was with a 2:55 or 2:54 goal?

Yeah, that was with like a going through the half, I think, um, well, my, my goal is like 6:40 to 6:45, um, and I wanted to come through the half at maybe like 1:27.5. And so I had a couple miles that would tick under that, but at the same time I knew I was feeling really comfortable, and so I didn't freak, I didn't let it freak me out too much. And then typically once I hit the half, I'll let myself kind of start engaging a little bit more. And then with 10 miles to go, I really can kind of start racing. So that's when I start looking at people in front of me and kind of just start playing Frogger, you know, you just like keep moving up. And so that's something that I like to do. And it works, like I think both years, I don't think anyone passed me like the second half. If you can just hold back, like, 'cause it does, it feels easy early on, but the same pace won't feel that way like 10 miles later. So just being really patient.

And that takes marathon experience to go through that, right? Being able to hold back at the beginning to finish strong?

Yeah, it does. Um, like last year I think was the first year that I actually executed that way, and I was like so happy with how I felt that I don't think I'll ever have an issue with like going out too fast again.

Did you have any nutritional plans going into it, and did that go according to plan?

So my plan— I have had some really crazy GI stuff in races. So, um, I usually on my training runs like will take gels even when I don't need them. Hard, uh, long tempo efforts, I'll take them just so my stomach is used to taking in calories while you're working really hard. Um, and so going into this race, I had planned on starting at an hour and then every 30 minutes after that. And, um, It went, it went pretty close to schedule. I was a little late on the first gel and then a little more late on the second gel. And then at that point you're like at over 2 hours. So I had one more. So I think, well, I only had 3 and I think I was supposed to have 5, but it was, it was okay.

Right on. How were you, Kelly?

Uh, my goal was strictly sub-3. So I, um, the beginning half of CIM is rolling hills, which I love. It was a little bit difficult to gauge pace because of the rolling hills, so I actually went out a little bit faster. So sub-3 is like a 6:52. I went out a little bit faster in the first half, and I think I was around 6:46, 6:47. I took a bathroom break at mile 10, which I knew I probably would have to, but I just didn't let myself freak out about that. I'm like, this is probably— I'm probably gonna have to take a quick quick stop, so I knew I'd built up some time there.

You were able to get in quick.

Yeah, I was in probably 35, maybe lost 35 seconds or whatever it was. But the great thing was, because I mean, I had already just mentally prepared, if, hey, if you have to stop, you have to stop, not a big deal. So, um, I— and then in the second half, it was— I think I was literally 6:51 on the dot almost every single mile. So it was just literally about control. And I think one of the toughest things during the race is I would catch myself because the trail runner in me, when I hit a hill, I just want to get up the hill. And so I would start to feel my quads engaging on the hills because I was starting to go in that mode, and I'd quickly snap myself back and tell myself to stop because you could start to feel that strain you're putting on your legs. And while it's great at miles, you know, 4, 5, 6, there were some hills later in the course too, so I definitely had to keep reminding myself to just knock it off and then get to the downhill, and you know, the times would average out. So it was a lot of just control the whole time and just being in control and keeping calm, and I felt relatively cool about things the whole time and didn't let myself, you know, try not to freak out about weird things. And, you know, Gwen and I were talking about before this, stopping and grabbing my drink and actually taking a second to take the drink versus trying to be crazy and sprint through it. And I actually find you are— you kind of come off those stops a little bit more engaged and quicker, and you have these little bursts of energy. So whatever you lose there, you, you pick up pretty quickly. So I think just trying to keep calm, trying to keep in control, and then, you know, and just continually reminding yourself to do that. And, um, so that's what I really tried to do. And, you know, that worked well, and it was consistent, and it was not easy at the end, but it was like— I think you said it too— it was sort of machine-like. It was just, all right, just keep holding and just executing. You know, when you get to 21, can I go one more mile at this pace, and then I'll ring the process. Yep, I can. Can I get to 23 at this pace? Yep, I can. And giving yourself those little, you know, goals at the end when it starts to get tougher, so it's not such a huge, huge deal to process.

So that's what you did towards the end, just—

yeah, I would say smaller 20 on when it's— when it starts to get tougher, it was okay, so, you know, let's hold this pace for another mile and then figure out, you know, where to go from here. Let's hold pace for another mile. And then of course when you get to 24 or 25, it's like, okay, now we just got it, we got to finish this thing, you know. So, but, um, yeah, I think just trying to be calm and collected and not get too crazy.

And it worked.

Yeah, it works, thankfully.

What did you end up finishing it?

Uh, 2:59:20. So Yeah, I had a few people who were tracking me that were upset with me because it was stressful apparently to track me because I was too on the nose. And I'm like, that's what I was trying to do. That was the plan.

Good. How about you, Gwen? Your race plan and execution?

Um, so I probably spent a lot of time, too much time, deciding like what I wanted to come through the half in, whether I was going to negative split. I think I'm very comfortable negative splitting because I like to feel good, and if I start to do a positive split, can get a little dark mentally. So personally, I thought I wanted to negative split, but then a couple of people whose advice I really respect were telling me that a negative split is not a good idea for a marathon. You don't run your best race because physiologically, a positive split will mean you've left everything out there, whereas a negative split you probably had something more to give. So I debated it, I mean, even up until the morning of. And one of my other friends was planning on going through the half in 1:30 to 1:31, which would require a negative split. And I had decided, okay, I'll stay with you because it'd be fun to run together and everything. And then I basically freaked out a little bit and was like, nope, I'm not comfortable with a negative split. I'm gonna go for 1:30, so we're not running together. So my goal was then, like, as of, you know, the starting line, was to come through pretty much at 1:30. I ended up coming through at 1:30:49. I think it's about like 20 to 25 seconds in a bathroom, and I let myself make up a little bit of that time. I ran the next mile about 10 seconds faster.

Did that concern you that you were slightly behind on schedule at the half marathon point?

No, I mean, I would have liked to be a little closer to 1:30, but because I had spent so much time thinking about the 1:30 to 1:31 range, because I was still in that range, I was okay in doing some basic math. And I think, I think I at the time thought it was actually 50 seconds instead of 49 seconds that I needed to make up. And so then I just did some quick math and I was like, oh, I think that's like 3 seconds per mile or something, maybe 4, so I really just need to do like 6:47s for the rest of the race, and with zero buffer left. I know, right? Yeah, and it's not— it's fuzzy math too. So, um, but I had done my 22-mile training run with 10 miles at a 6:45 pace, um, and I didn't kill myself to get that, so I knew that there was a possibility that I could do, you know, those high 6:40 miles for the next 13 miles. So I felt— I mean, I didn't feel super confident or anything, but I, I definitely felt like it was, um, within reason. Um, yeah, and like Kelly said, I, I definitely had to hold back on the uphills in the first half. It was a very concerted effort to go slow on the hills.

Your body just wants to charge it. You do just want to charge, and it's like, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, and I was like, I think this is good that I'm holding back. And even on the downhill, I had to kind of focus on holding back a little bit because even though they're very, very gentle hills compared to what we're used to running on the trails, you still figure it must add up a little bit. For sure.

Yeah, it's nice to be able to use some different muscle groups though and kind of switch it up that way.

First half was actually— the first half was great. I did not like the second. I mean, it is the second half, but I thought the downhills and the second half, they weren't as distinct. It felt kind of a little no man's land a couple times. Maybe that was part of it too, but there was actually a couple large hills that were longer, that were longer, whereas the beginning was like a short hill and then you had that very clear down. You kind of, you could see what you were doing. In the second half, it was, am I on a downhill? Am I on an uphill? What's happening?

Yeah, this is terrible.

So Gwen, how did the last 6 miles go for you? Like, how did you continue to push yourself? And when it got tough, like, how do you kind of get through that?

Oh, so it was really nice. At mile 20, they have this arch that says The Wall on it. So I, I actually was hoping before I could read the words The Wall, I was like, oh, a giant arch. Hopefully that means that it's all downhill from here, because I thought the downhill was going to end it— I mean, the uphill was going to end at mile 13. But the rollers kept coming. So mile 20, I'm like, oh, maybe this arch means there's no more hills. Then it said the wall, and I said, okay, well, you know, this is fine too because I'm grateful right now that I'm not hitting the wall. Um, and then at mile 21, my right calf started to seize up, like I was almost getting a charley horse. And I've had that happen before in races or just in life in general. It's kind of one of my quirks, I guess. Um, and because I've had it happen during a race before, I, I knew I could work through it, but I also knew it was like potentially devastating because if it fully seized up, I would lose like 5 minutes trying to like be able to move again. Um, so basically from mile 21 on, I was literally just focused 100% on my calf and running with my foot flexed so that, you know, there was less risk of an actual full-on cramp happening. Um, and so I kept looking at my watch because it made me very nervous. Um, I saw even with my weird form, I was still hitting like in the mid 640s, so I still wasn't too worried. It didn't feel great though, and I thought about taking a salt pill because that's helped before, but I made the mistake of having my salt pills in like the little zipper pocket in the back of your shorts. And I don't know, my hands were cold. I just, I didn't have confidence in my ability to reach into that back pocket to get the salt out without taking a misstep and having my cramps seize up. So I just thought, you know what, this is kind of working right now. I'm making up enough time still, so I'll just keep going. And I mean, I just didn't really see any other choice at that point. I wasn't going to give up or anything. Um, like, sort of like my heart rate felt fine, like cardiovascularly everything felt fine, you know, some other little things were tightening but like nothing major. So I thought, if this is my only problem, I can still do this. Um, around mile 23, the time started to go by really slowly. It was like a time warp, I think, where I was like, okay, like, even though, you know, 7 minutes is 7 minutes, you know, 7 minutes felt like 14 minutes because it's hurting. Yeah. And so I really started to go slowly. So then I kind of focused on, um, I was still passing people even with my, you know, mini struggle. Um, so people who looked like they were really struggling, I would just say, you know, you got this, or like, keep it up. And people were really grateful. So it was just kind of been making me stay positive. The fact that then these people who are suffering more than I am, who are then cheering back for me and saying, oh, yeah. And then it was a little bit dangerous because when I'm focusing on that, then I'm not focusing on my calf. But, um, so I had some near misses with that seizing up, but eventually, like, you just keep seeing 400 meters to go, and I was like, I think I have 2 minutes more or less to do a quarter mile, so this should be fine. I really didn't even know until I like stopped my watch and then, you know, the screen changed over and I saw the time.

And what was it?

2:59:43. And I started far enough back that when I crossed the finish line, you know, the big clock there said like 3 hours and 18 seconds, which is what part of why I didn't know.

Yeah.

So yeah, I'm like Kelly, I made people very nervous. And so like one of my friends sent me a picture of her and her husband and she was crying because like all the anxiety that I had caused her.

Yeah, we were trekking along as well and it was nerve-wracking. It really is. But how about you, Jessica? Like the last 6 miles when it, when it gets tough, like realistically, as much as you can hold back at the beginning, those last 10 or 6 miles, really you got to put in the work. Like how did you get through tough spots over there?

Yeah, um, so I'm—

I, I kind of become a little bit of a basket case in the end of a race. I do a lot of math, and, um, I like— I love that they do the kilometers and the miles because like you get to the next like checkpoint and it just like seems like it's even faster. So it felt like it was going by really quickly to me, but, um, it's almost like the closer I get to the finish line, the more my mind tries to negotiate with myself, like, okay, so you have this much of a buffer. Like, you could at this point run 10-minute miles and still come in under— like, I don't even have to be feeling really crappy to start doing that, but I do. So like, I go between thinking that and being like, you are so crazy. Like, you're fine. Like, just keep going. Kind of like what Kelly said, I'll be like, are you— like, you can, you can do this for another mile. Like, if then you want to do the math and see how slow you can run, like, do it then. But I never take it. I never like slow down. But I think just like allowing myself to have those thoughts helps.

Yeah, it keeps your mind busy. It's funny after the fact. It's very serious during. It's like, I had the same thought. I was like, well, if it took me an hour to do the last 6 miles, it's a respectable time, you know, and you say that to yourself, and but it's something to keep you occupied. And then of course you're not, you know, you're not gonna stop.

And like, and I, I think even up until like mile 25, I'm like, wow, like you've got a really good cushion right now. But like, you know, I'm not going to be the person walking the last quarter mile. Um, so I do a lot of that, uh, and Something that I think I used to be good at and this past training cycle haven't been so great at, and maybe that's part of why I didn't feel like I had a lot of strong workouts, was just like embracing the pain. I think I'm someone who needs to like anticipate and just like embrace it. And like, I think this past cycle I've been trying to be like too positive and like it doesn't feel good and there's that dissonance. And so You know, sometimes it just doesn't work. But this race, I really embraced like, no, like, this is hard, but like, that's okay. Like, you can do hard. And that really helped me like every time, you know, I started to hurt. And kind of like what Gwen was saying, there's definitely something to be said for trying to lift others up. Like, you see Desi Linden at Boston waiting for Shalane at the bathroom. It takes your mind off your own, like, struggle, and like there's an actual boost from that. So I like do the same thing. You see like elites cramping up at the side of the road, it's crazy. It's like, you can keep going, just, you know, like these things pass. Maybe they don't, but like, you know, trying to cheer other people on, it helps.

Just that energy boost that you get from that.

Yeah.

What—

even when I think of volunteer at a, at an aid station and you just send that positive energy and you get it right back at you. Or sometimes I even yell at the side of the road like, "Thanks for coming out!" And like, you just hear like this army of people like cheering back on again and it's—

Throw out some high fives.

Yeah, I know, I'm definitely a talker. Like, it helps. Like, I'm sure you waste like a tiny bit of energy projecting your voice so much, but the return I get I feel like is just so much stronger, so.

Sometimes even when I'm in pain, I try to smile a smile, a laugh, and as hard as it is at that point, something in your body is happening too that you feel a little bit better too.

Yeah, about the smiling, so I didn't— someone stole my sleeves. Like on my last long training run, it was cold in the morning, so I wore my lucky sleeves, and obviously it's LA, so I was hot like 2 miles later, took them off, hid them, and on my return they were gone. So I was like really bummed to not have my lucky sleeves for the race, so I ended up just buying some long knee-high socks and like cutting them for sleeves. And I went with these silly llama prints, like there were llamas wearing sunglasses. They were just absolutely ridiculous. Of course, when I would look down at my watch and like see this just goofy, goofy thing, it would like make me smile or laugh. And like, that helps. So like keeping things light when it gets dark.

Yeah, that's good.

What time did you end up coming through?

It was 2:54:26.

Nice, really fast. So you, you PR'd again?

Yeah, so it was like a minute, almost a minute and a half PR.

Nice, good. Kelly, what do you do later on in the week, in the, in the race? You already talked about it. Yeah, like breaking it, breaking up the race.

There's definitely a negotiation that happens, which is entertaining, and just in terms of getting, you know, well, it's a lot of it's breaking breaking things down and making it, you know, taking smaller pieces as opposed to looking at it holistically, which I think is always good, just moment by moment. And I think that's the cool thing about running is you really have to be in the moment because if you're thinking too far ahead, if you're thinking about something that happened before, you know, it's gonna mess you up in the long run. So try to break it down a little bit. I did, I have in the last 2 years spent more time than I ever have Visualizing, but also when I'm in moments and when I'm in opportunities where it's easy to quit, recognizing those moments. Whether it's you're doing a plank at your gym, you know, and they're having you sit in a plank for 3 minutes and, you know, your instinct is like, oh, this sucks, I want to get out of it. It's recognizing those triggers and starting to understand what do I do when I'm in pain or I'm not comfortable and trying to counter that and get better at it and put myself in more positions to experience that where you're uncomfortable. And that doesn't have to be just athletically. That can just be doing tough things in your job or whatever it is, and starting to get a better handle on your mental strengths and weaknesses because we all have them. And I think that's one of the most interesting things about racing and coming out of runs is you learn some things about yourself. Sometimes you don't like what you learn about yourself and That's why I think, you know, experience is a great thing in running, is you grow up and you learn from all the things that you've done wrong. And that's a really cool thing that comes out of it, is when you actually are able to push back on your own negative thoughts or, you know, whatever conversation you have going on. So definitely try to visualize those moments a little bit more and, and understand where I tend to lean in those times and try to correct it a little bit and have a sense of humor about it because it's funny too.

It has to be funny.

Yeah.

Otherwise, why are we all doing it, right?

Yeah, for sure.

Um, one part that I am curious about hearing— so you guys just all ran a PR. What are some of the things that you would do differently next time? Like you've already performed really well right now, but there's always things that you take away either from the training cycle or from the actual race day itself. Is there anything you would do differently?

I, I think for me it's always, um, like one thing I admire a lot about Jess is like she's super confident about herself and her abilities and she's like, oh, I'm gonna do this, and I really have to wrap my head around things And I think just taking risks more is something that I keep taking away and remembering that, you know, I have, you know, I know my weaknesses, but I know my strengths too. And not being afraid to lean into those strengths because I tend to be a little bit more conservative. And, you know, I know Gwen was saying 305 for a long time. I'm sort of the same way. I'm a little more cautious and like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And I think, you know, I'm learning more and more just to take more risks and, um, be a little bit more confident in both, you know, training and in the execution itself. Um, obviously you gotta be smart too because there are, you know, I know like for Gwen and I, the goal was to be sub 3 and it wasn't necessarily to be, you know, if I was having a phenomenal day, yeah, for sure it would be great to go faster than that. That, but I, you know, there was a bit of control. But I think risk would be something that I would want to take more of, just in all facets of it.

I would second that very much. I think I changed so much with my training for this training cycle, and it— the training went well, so I think I would just try to do the same thing again. Um, and then like in terms of race day, I think, you know, having my salt pills be more accessible next time, or even just taking them proactively. I hadn't really considered that. I take them during ultras, but I never thought about taking them during a marathon. And then also I quit caffeine like for long chunks of time leading up to the race, but then I had caffeine on race day. So even though I stopped drinking liquids 2 hours before the race, I had to pee because the coffee was acting as a diuretic. Because I probably— it was cold, so I drank like a full, you know, mug of coffee as opposed to a few sips. Um, and so then it was, I, I had to pee again later in the race, but I just didn't allow myself. I said, if I need to pee, I'll like pee on myself. And I just relaxed and I never peed on myself. So like the salt pills with the coffee, but then also taking more risk on race day. So that's a recent conversation I had with a friend who said, well, this is great. Now that you have a sub-3, you don't really have to be so cautious. So next time you can go out and you can go for 2:55, and you know, worst case you blow up and you run, you know, 3:05 or 3:10, maybe slower even, who knows. Yeah, but like, and then you don't have to feel like, oh, I should have just gone for sub-3, because you already have that.

You don't have to play it safe anymore.

Yeah, so I think— I don't know if I'm gonna run one soon, but the next time I think I would just kind of like try to really just go all out and see what happens.

The biggest thing I would have changed, like, for this cycle, um, was just kind of maybe take it more seriously or like have my heart in it. Like, last year was my big sub-3 effort, so I was doing everything. I was sleeping well, I was even eating well. I was just like doing everything because I really, really wanted it. I was doing the visualization, um, and this year, so like my big goal now is I really want to run 45, but I'm doing this whole new training and it's kind of like this cycle was phase 1 and I didn't really get to the mileage I wanted. I didn't really get to get to the exciting workouts that I think were going to help. So I think a lot of it was kind of just dragging my feet through and like, this is just something I have to do. Like, it's not going to be my big sub-3, it's not going to be 2:40, because I wasn't like excited about it. And I think, um, you know, If you're gonna do it, you gotta just do it all the way. And I think I'm really lucky that I was able to get a PR, you know, not doing all those things. And I feel like guilty kind of looking back, like, you know, you could have done something even better. Or just like, I feel like I didn't like respect it like the way I should have. So I would definitely, you know, moving forward, my next training cycles.

So Olympic qualifying time is the big goal?

That's my big goal, yeah.

What is it gonna take, you think, for you to go from what you're currently at to get to that?

So this race, I think, was— if I didn't break 2:55 or like I was, you know, a lot slower, I think I would have maybe reassessed whether that was possible. But the reason I switched to training with my coach is we're doing like a big aerobic buildup and where I'm actually, you know, getting that kind of base where I never did any aerobic running before other than like warm-ups and cool-downs for my speed work. So the plan is to continue building my aerobic base, getting my mileage up to about 75 miles a week.. And then hopefully once I'm kind of comfortably there— and who knows, maybe I won't be able to maintain that, it's just something so different than I've ever done— be able to do that with the workouts. Um, because this past cycle I kind of got to the point where I could, you know, handle about 50 miles and then throwing in some workouts with that, and it's just taking a little while to adapt.

So it takes your body time to get used to increasing training volume, especially when you're doing more road miles as well. It's harder on the body versus all the trails that we're used to.

Yeah, so, you know, hopefully I can handle that type of volume, um, and be able to start adding and maintain some intensity and strength training, which I had to cut out this last cycle because I was just like totally exhausted from like even 50 miles. So, um, time will tell if I can handle it. Yeah, and then obviously the sleeping and the eating, like, that's all— that all matters.

Yeah. What's next for you guys race-wise or not race-wise? Do you have any plans in the coming 2019?

Okay, I'll put it out there as part of this visualization sort of thing. I want to go for sub-18 in a 5K, so my first attempt will probably be February, and we'll just see how that goes. Boom, that's exciting. Yeah, so yeah, and then 100K in April.

5Ks and 100Ks, gotta find a balance. There you go.

I will not be racing any 5Ks ever. Um, uh, I don't know, I am kind of taking a, a beat on it, on this, and just seeing— I really try to now I'm trying to spend a lot— spend a little more time deciding what I want to do. I feel like the older I get, the more my body is precious to me in terms of not wanting to waste mileage. And so I'm trying to be selective about what I decide to race and run. And I really enjoy all the training, whether it's just training on trails, or we were talking about doing Rim to Rim to Rim before. Those are some of my favorite than not, you know, unofficial runs. And I definitely still have some of those in my head that I want to do. So hopefully some adventures this year.

And then, which you still have to train for, you still have to maintain fitness level for sure.

Um, and then outside of that, just kind of seeing where I, you know, what feels right, whether it's road or just trail all year. Just let my body decide and whatever I'm having fun with.

Good.

Um, so I'm, I'm aiming to do a spring marathon, late spring. Um, have it down probably Grandma's, maybe Mountains to Beach, but Grandma's is appealing because it's so competitive. Not like 200 women, or like probably 300 women below 3 at CIM, but it's competitive, so there'd be people to run with and feed off of. So probably Grandma's.

It's exciting.

It sounds so innocent.

I know, right?

And it's in the Midwest, like, yeah, it's nice to have the destination races and actually make a trip out of it.

Yeah, I don't know about all that. Like, I just like so anxious about wasting energy before a race, and then I can only enjoy it often afterwards once, once pressure is off. Yeah, totally.

Just, just was like the day before the race, you want to get dinner? And I'm like, I just, I can't talk about the race.

She's like, oh, maybe we won't do dinner.

Like, I just can't think about the fact that this is happening tomorrow.

Yeah, totally avoiding.

I totally avoid the week of race.

I don't think I normally am.

I don't talk about it.

It's like Fight Club for me.

How do you guys taper? Like, for this, for this race in particular, what does your taper look like? You're probably still running 70 miles a week.

I, you know, I followed this plan and the mileage actually was substantially higher than I expected. So 3 weeks out, I only went down to 58 miles, and then the 2, 2 weeks before, I still hit 48. So it was really only the week of that to me felt like a true taper. So it was really like a 10-day taper. So I ran a 5K on Thanksgiving, so that was I think 9 days before. So that was like my last workout Um, and then the week of, I think I did— I took Monday off, did 7 miles Tuesday, 7 miles trail on Wednesday, and then essentially took Thursday and Friday off and did a few miles on Saturday. So it's really only that last week.

Yeah, terrible at the taper. Um, but again, I'm just embracing like the craziness of who I am, and so I definitely backed off. I didn't run a lot But I still went to my spin classes and, you know, tried to do a little bit more low impact and boxed and all those things even 2 days before. Um, but I, I just, I need to let out some of that energy and it's just who I am. I had a horrible week leading into the race with just life and work and personal stuff, so that shook me up a little bit. I was texting with Jess, I'm like, I don't know if I can do this race and was traveling. There was just a ton of things that were not great in terms of rest, but in a way maybe it wasn't a bad thing because I was thinking about everything but the run. Drove up the day before, which felt like a terrible idea, but you know, I think—

so you drove 7 hours the day before?

Drove 7 hours, but that's real life and you know, we all have real lives and at the end of the day It makes a great story for afterwards and, you know, we, we still have to do all the things we need to do and that's part of it. So, you know, it is what it is, but I do not like the taper.

How did you survive the taper, Jessica?

Um, I actually loved the taper. Like, I was— because I used to only run 3 times a week, so like this training cycle getting up to 6 days of running a week. Like, I would run one day and the next day I'd have to run again. I'd be like, but I just ran yesterday. So like, when it was taper and I was only running like 4 times a week, I was like super pumped. I fully embraced it. I think like when my highest mileage week was 3 weeks out, 58 miles, but then I think I went down to like 30 the week before. I had, um, I still had a track workout, but it was a like 5 1000s, um, which I was a little nervous about because normally I like to like just not run that much the week before. I'm like one of those people just like, okay, this is my rest week, like full rest. So I did it. I didn't want to, but I'm just like fully trusting in my coach. So, um, yeah, I was like 5K or 5, yeah, 1000 repeats on Tuesday. Um, I don't know, maybe like 20 miles race week in addition to the marathon.

So, right on. So in the audience, and I want to be mindful of everyone's time, in the audience there's quite a few listeners who are looking to qualify for Boston or run a marathon PR or run sub-3. Do you guys have any tips, any advice, recommendations besides what you guys have already mentioned over here? Anything for people who have maybe maybe not reached that level yet, but who want to get across that?

I think the biggest thing is like intention with your training. Like people can go out and run, like Kelly's one of them, she used to run a ton and like I knew for years that she had a very fast marathon in her, but she wasn't like training for a marathon. Like if you want to train and race for a marathon, you have to find a program. There are so out there that will work, like anything from 3 days a week, all high intensity, you know, to Moffatone, where it's like all heart rate based. So just like finding a program and sticking to it. Don't try to mash everything together where, you know, you're kind of going hard all the time but not as hard as you could if you have lower volume. So that's like the biggest thing. I think there are a lot of ways to get there, just find one and stick to it.

Agree.

I think intention is huge. Gwen talked about it earlier where you'd hit like a plateau. I think until you're really ready and you've really, you've really got to make a decision you want to do it. And once you make that mental decision to do it, then find a plan because you do need to have a plan in place because speed is a completely different, you know, beast and it does require proper training. But find a plan that works, you know, for you and, and makes you excited to train. And then, you know, just understand that there's gonna be ebbs and flows and that not every day is gonna be— you might have a great training cycle where everything goes perfectly, and you might have ups and downs. And just not to take it too personally and to, you know, just keep putting out your best effort. And if you keep doing that, if you keep showing up, and eventually, you know, it's it's gonna work out. But yeah, I think just really making the decision to want to do something and really wanting to do that is a really important first step.

Yeah, I would say to— if you're trying to get faster, run with people that are faster than you, and nice people, but people that are faster than you. And you don't have to always, you know, apologize for being slower. You just work hard to keep up and there are different ways in workouts, um, for people can kind of go out and back to meet back up. So you're not necessarily running side by side the whole time, but just to know that you're out there with other people, you know, who have similar goals than you are faster than you and striving towards something I think can be really helpful. Yeah.

So true. One, one thing that I have noticed as well is a lot of runners for some of the earlier marathons, they train maybe 3 or 4 times a week. For me, it became easier once I started training 5 or 6 days a week and just spread out that mileage, maybe increase the mileage a bit, but then also just spreading it out over more different workouts. So almost every day you activate your, your systems, and you— it just almost becomes like second nature to be running, versus you take a day off and then you run again, you take a day off run again.

Like, maybe still throw in a run that's not about time. Leave your watch at home. Yeah. And just enjoy running so that you always are grounded in the fact that you do like running. Because there might be times where every run on your calendar is a workout and can get really monotonous, and it, you know, it's tiring and all those things. So it's nice to, to have that fun run written in every week where it's I was like, oh yeah, I like running.

It's awesome. Yeah, yeah, your why has to be very strong, you know. To run a marathon is very hard. To like race and get everything you can out of a marathon is just like, if you don't want to be there and don't know why you're out there, it's like, yeah, you just can't do that. Like you need to, you know, be grateful and really like want it and remember why you're out We're out there for you. When it gets hard.

Yeah, exactly.

I think a lot of people underestimate how hard it is to run a sub-3-hour marathon until you try and blow up at mile 18. And then—

yeah, it's a long 8 miles.

It really can be. Yeah, I've definitely walked the last quarter mile of a marathon before. I've reached 26 and I walked made that decision. Yeah, very consciously I walked, so it can, it can go either way.

Right on. Well, what I will do is I'll make sure to link to all of your guys' Strava, so anyone who wants to look up all of the details, Strava or it didn't happen, but we can see all of the mile breakdowns and everything in there. So awesome. Good. Thank you guys very much. It was a lot of fun. We'll have to do it again next year or in 2 years. Alright, cool, good stuff.

Thanks.

Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of the Extramilest Show, all focused on the sub-3-hour marathon. It would mean the absolute world to me if you can leave a very brief review on iTunes. This helps with the overall ranking of our podcast and get it even in front of more listeners. All of the show notes from today's episode can be found on my website extramilest.com with links to the Strava accounts by Jessica, Kelly, and Gwen as well. And if you have any questions, feel free to let us know in the comments and we'll get back to you. All right, you guys have a good one. Bye now.