How to Run Longer Without Hitting the Wall | Aaron Kubala

I think the biggest thing would be find like a community, because for 2 to 3, maybe 4 years, like 2018 to 2022, almost all of my training was, was solo, right? I think there's value in that. It's very important to have some runs and some training sessions that are by yourself. But once I sort of found these pockets of people that I wanted to train with, that I wanted to go on long runs with, that I wanted to have these adventures with, it's like the training became secondary. It was an afterthought. If you're not enjoying it, you don't— there's no need to do it, right? You don't need to be miserable training. But if you can find ways to make training as fun as possible, whether that's running with friends or making fun quirky challenges, it's going to make the rest of your, your journey much easier. And it's true in training, and it's— I think it's doubly true in the race— is enjoy it, right? It's, it's— you're seeking, even if it is at sometimes miserable and painful, you're seeking that rawness, and you have to go through the misery and the pain to get there.

Hello, hello, hello! Today's guest runs longer races than most people listening to this podcast. His name is Aaron Gubala. And he is an ultramarathoner who has been— he ran his first marathon in 2018 and then started increasing his distance further and further. In this conversation, we're going to take a deep dive into his training approach, his racing approach, but we make it very applicable to the everyday runner. Like, yes, I think sometimes hearing for someone who's running 300-mile races— he literally ran and won the race from Santa Monica all the way to Las Vegas, close to 300 miles in 75 hours. Insane. Normally it's a speed project like stage race, but he actually did it on his own. And then recently he ran like a really long ultra marathon in Chile. It was 304 miles, whatever that is, 589, 489 kilometers in Chile at high altitude. Some absolute insane feats, but we still make it applicable to the everyday runner because sometimes it feels so out of touch. And so he has different advice for people looking to improve for going further than they ever have, for going faster than they ever have, like overcoming challenges in training and in racing. Yeah, he just, he, he really shared a lot of good insights even around his why of running. I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you enjoy it as well. This episode was brought to you by Element. I'm actually very excited to mention that Element just came out with a new flavor, Lemonade, and it is absolutely delicious. It's my go-to flavor that I've been drinking daily. LMNT delivers essential sodium, potassium, and magnesium at levels 2 to 3 times higher than government recommendations because athletes need more than the average person. When you're logging serious miles or crushing workouts, proper hydration without the sugar crash makes all the difference. And now, just in time for summer, LMNT has launched an exciting new flavor: Lemonade Salt. It's salty, tart, and perfectly refreshing, giving you optimal hydration on your hottest training days. Mix it with water, blend it into an iced tea for a salty Arnold Palmer, or get creative with fresh fruit for the ultimate summer refresher. Head to the link in my description or go to drinkelemente.com/flow to get a free sample pack with any order. That is drinkelemente.com/flow. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Aaron Kubala. Yeah, Aaron, welcome to the Extra Mile Show. I'm glad you're here.

Hello, Floris. Thanks for having me.

You surely like to run long, very long races, and I'm really looking forward to having a deep dive conversation about how to run from Los Angeles to Las Vegas and how to run across Chile at high altitude. There's a lot that we're going to cover there in much detail, but I do want to make it relatable to the everyday recreational runner there too. So I would love to hear from you. What was like, I asked this question to Courtney Dauwalter a few weeks or a few months ago when I visited her in Leadville. And I'm actually quite curious to hear your answer on this as well. What was going through your mind when you were at the start line of your first marathon? What were you thinking? How did that go leading up to that moment?

Oh man, Courtney is quite a tough act to follow here. Uh, but I, I do love that question. I think my first marathon was 2018 in Boston, and I, I didn't qualify. I was just running with a charity. Um, but I was terrified. Uh, I think there's a question obviously of like, can you do the distance? And that kept running in my mind. Like, I didn't know that I could, and there was a lot of fear. Um, I do think there is a lot of joy in like embracing that fear and sort of existing in that liminal space of like, can I or can't I do something? My first 100 miler, I was also just terrified. I didn't get any sleep the night before. I was just ruminating thoughts. But ever since then, every race has been only excitement. And so I feel like there was quite an interesting switch where now it's just race day is like, it's the best day of the year.

That is, yeah. And that is very relatable right there. I think even when I think back of my very first marathon, I was so nervous the night before that it felt like someone was jabbing a knife in my back. It really felt like this tightness, this cramping and all of that. And then I think once started running, like, after a few minutes, you kind of end up loosening up a little bit and you're just more present in the moment over there. So, so how did that go for you? Like, you were talking about first marathon and then you straight up jumped to, like, first 100 miler. Like, what were some of those steps in between and how did you go about increasing that distance mentally and physically?

That's a good question. I followed the pretty traditional path of after marathon, you know, doing a 50K, doing a 50 miler, doing 100K, and then doing 100 miler. And almost with this plan, I knew after I first discovered what ultra running was that I wanted to do a 100 miler. Like, that was my goal. I read all the classic books, you know, Born to Run, and I was just set on doing a 100 miler. And so I knew that over the course of a few years, I'd have to like progressively build up. And so my path was, was pretty straightforward there. But there, there obviously, you know, there's, there's gonna be gaps, like 60 or 100K to 100 miler is a pretty big difference. Especially once you add that, the overnight component too, that makes a big difference as well.

Yeah, that's like such a different, different beast again. Tell me what in some of those earlier races, what were some of the biggest challenges that you encountered, especially as you are sometimes? Because there's a lot of people listening to this podcast that are on their own journey of going further or going faster or trying to grow in whatever way, shape, or form. Right.. And that can be from going from a first 5K to a first 10K, or that can be going from a first marathon to a first 50K. What were some of those challenges in those early races that you encountered and how did you overcome some of those?

I, I think the biggest one for a lot of people, and especially for my own journey, was injury. People always ask, you know, how you run so far without getting injured, right? And I think for me, my background was more of as a soccer player, and I found a lot of soccer players have this commonality when they switch to ultra running, or if they switch to ultra running, they find there's fundamental muscle imbalances that maybe don't matter as much for under 20 miles, but once you start pushing a marathon, a 50K, you know, one hip is, is not as strong as the other, and then that's what causes problems. Actually, leading up to my first 50K, I had several pockets of like minor runner injuries, and over probably a period of 3 to 4 months, I kind of had to start from square one and start really building up and, and taking a different approach from, from just running. And, and I think a lot of people also have this experience of, You know, when I first got into running after soccer, I just, all I knew was like fast running and I'm just trying to like redline as, as far as I can, as long as I can and just whatever, maintain sub-7 mile. And that's not optimal training at all, right? I had no idea what I was doing and that certainly leads to injury. And so sort of taking a step back after getting injured one too many times and assessing like, okay, maybe people that know what they're doing could give me a bit of advice on how to not get injured. That made a big difference.

Yeah. Did you also change your approach besides, like, your running intensity with some of the other elements? Like, did you start doing some more strength training or mobility, or, or was there anything else outside that you changed there?

Changed my shoes. I realized I was wearing shoes that were not optimally fit for my feet. And a lot of local run stores, you know, will give shoe fittings where you can stand on the sensors and sort of see how your gait works. Doing single leg exercises was big for me because from a lifetime of soccer, I had quite a, like, you could visibly see that my left leg was bigger than my right leg from like a plant foot. And so starting to do like single leg exercises, I feel like for me made a big difference with injury prevention.

Yeah, that's a good one. It's kind of funny, I'm, I'm working out of the KOROS office over here, and I was just talking with some of the co-workers, and I was saying like, hey, I'm, I'm gonna have a conversation with Aaron. One of the guys over here, he actually had, he had heard of you, and he was like, that guy has got quads for days. And sure enough, I was looking through your, through your Instagram, and all of a sudden I see this massive quads indeed, like probably from, from soccer and then, then like all the ultra running training that you have done. But yeah, you, you're definitely built for, for the longer, longer distances there, man.

Yeah, I mean, especially like, I think I would never be competitive in a marathon distance. Like, I could still bust out a very fast marathon time, but at the top level, I don't think I may be built for that. But for something that, as you approach longer distances, it's way less about body type and it's more about all these other things, decision making, logistics, you know, training, all of that. And so I think that was actually something that was appealing for me, was that ultra running is for, uh, any body type in a sense. Mm-hmm.

And it becomes much more of a puzzle, right? I think the running component is just one thing of it, but it becomes a lot of creative problem solving. Along the way as well, especially some of those recent adventures that you've done where you're out for days on the trails or on the road?

Yeah. I think there are two pieces to that. And one is like the puzzle side, the logistics side, how do you manage nutrition, electrolytes, sleep, all of that. And then, there's the mental side of how do you enjoy it, right? How do you keep from getting bored? You're spending 4 days running. How do you find like the motivation to keep going? I find that piece the most interesting part. And so for me, that, that's like a lot of mental training, right? And so you sort of have to have this, this cultivated love for the run. And I think that's something that gets kind of overlooked is you have to teach yourself to like love this or love what you're doing. And it's, it's almost like it's a discipline, it's a practice, and it's not just, you know, it's not just going out for a run. It's, it's finding the things in the run that you enjoy and find meaning in. And I think that component specifically in hyperdistance ultras is gonna play a bigger factor because it is so mental.

It really, really is. Like, I've— the longest run that I've done was like a 100-miler, and I was running for 17 hours, 45 minutes. And even there, it was a new experience. I'd never run for that long. And there was that whole mindset of when you would mention to someone like, oh yeah, I'm like basically running for a full day, that often that part would come up like, oh, isn't that very boring? And I, Funny enough, never found it boring. Like, I think there's a shift that's happening in your mind that all of a sudden you do end up really enjoying being out there, being present. And yes, you're experiencing the highs and lows, but I think when you're very present, you can find creative ways to work through that. But talk to me a little bit more about when you encounter low spots on some of your bigger adventures that you're doing. How do you work through that? And what sort of advice do you have for other people when they encounter a tough spot, how to go through that in a race?

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I think that's pretty central to all of ultra running. 'Cause I think in any, any big distance event, even if it's not running, you're gonna go through some like very big lows and, and getting through them. So I think there's an art that's kind of letting the lows not deeply affect you, but still being able to ride the highs. So almost on some like higher operative mental level, controlling what gets let into your system. And if it's, if it's enjoyment, like you let that in, and if it's pain and the suffering, it's like you have to find a way to not let that sort of ruin your day or the rest of, rest of the race. I think for me, the most significant moment where I felt something like that was my big low in the Los Angeles to Las Vegas race. And it was the third night and I was going through this like intense patch of hallucination and I was miserable and I still had 30 miles left in the run. And there was kind of this reframing of like, okay, I know that I want to get this done. I know that I have 30 miles to go. I can either be objectively miserable, or I can try to find a way to make this enjoyable, right? And so I'm almost forced through like rote learning to finding a way to enjoy it. And in that moment, it was, um, the sound of my footsteps became this like very beautiful thing. And it was, it was like this meditative thing, right? And I'm, I'm trying to focus in on this one sensory input, and it's the sound of my footsteps on the sand. And at some point, that sound became like this beautiful thing. And that's, that for me was a very profound experience.

I'm so glad you say that because I sometimes really notice the same thing. It's either the footsteps on the ground Or it's the breathing, or sometimes the combination of the two where you find that pattern between footsteps on the ground and your breathing, and it really becomes this meditative, like, yeah, background audience or audio.

Yeah, 100%. I think a breath and step are when I'm in my lows, like the two things I remind myself I always have, I can always focus on. And, you know, a lot of it's like a directed focus. It's about attention and awareness. And if you could call your awareness as opposed to the pain you're feeling or whatever grief you're going through, like, to those two things, I think you'll be in a much better place during the run.

Yeah. So 2018 Boston Marathon was your first marathon. That's an interesting race for that to be your first marathon. Yeah. So here we are, 7 years later. You have, you have ran many miles in training. You have ran many miles in races. What advice do you have to your younger self for someone in the very early stages of their running journey now looking to improve either going further or going faster?

I love that question, and I wish I could go back to my 2018-year-old self and, and tell him quite a few things. I think the biggest thing would be find like a community, because for 2 to 3, maybe 4 years, like 2018 to 2022, almost all of my training was, was solo, right? And I think there's value in that. It's very important to have some runs and some training sessions that are by yourself. But once I sort of found these pockets of people that I wanted to train with, that I wanted to go on long runs with, that I wanted to have these adventures with. It's like the training became secondary. It was an afterthought, right? It's just, you know, I want to wake up on Wednesday morning and go see my 20 friends in the mountain instead of, oh, I have to get up and train tomorrow, right? And so that perspective shift, I wish I would have hopped on a bit earlier because it makes all the difference in the world.

I love, I love you saying that because I'm in a similar boat where literally you look forward to hanging out with your friends and the running becomes secondary. It really is. It's like, oh yeah, we got to hang out for 2 hours and we still ended up getting 12 miles in or whatever. Right. And just that whole part, like that was just a bonus that you ended up getting those miles in, but you got to spend time with your friends too. So instead of going to the bar and hanging out, you're now like just running the trails.

Exactly. It's also, I mean, you're in the middle of nature as well, right? So it's not just hanging out with your friends, it's hanging out with your friends in like a very beautiful setting. Usually exploring someplace you haven't been or, you know, very old familiar trails. And like, that's, as you said, I think it's much more meaningful than going to a bar on a random weeknight.

Yeah, for sure. What is your why? Why do you enjoy running so far, so long? Like, why do you put yourself through all this?

You know, I think that's a question that is always going to be asked of anyone that does distance. And I do think there are like 100 different answers I could give, all of which would be valid. And I think one important caveat to the question is I think your why changes like day in, day out. Like your why can change every year, it can change every week, it could even change in the middle of your run, right? And so I think there's this iterative process of like discovering new whys over and over again, and that's a beautiful thing. But to give a more traditional answer to that question, it started out as a curiosity, right? It's, it's, I think it starts out as like, can I do this, right? Can I run 100 miles? What does that feel like? You know, can I push more? And then once you reach that, I think your why changes a bit and maybe you found some things along the run that you're still curious about or you found meaning in. It's like, I find it beautiful that your why changes. But for me, it started out as curiosity. And now I think the answer I love giving is, I mean, especially with some of these bigger 300-mile races, is it feels like I'm like increasing my emotional color palette. And in terms of all these things that like in life I get to feel, it feels like you never feel more than in the middle of these runs, right? You're just a thousand thoughts, a thousand memories, everything coming in. It almost feels like you're optimizing life in a sense because you're just getting this really rich experience.

Yeah. And that is true. Your why does change over time. And it's even throughout different races, different distances, different race goals. And I think every race is different too. Like sometimes you have a very good build up to a race and everything goes relatively okay, wind in the back. But then more times than not, real life is happening and your training just gets derailed big time. Like, I was planning a run this morning, yet my 11-year-old was sick with a fever and she was coughing and we were up several times during the night and I ended up just staying home with her this morning for a bit while there were a few other things going on. It's like, all right, that was a derailment of training. I could either really fight it or I can kind of like change it around to be like kind of surrender to what's happening. So I think, yeah, that every training cycle is different over there too. And I'm sure that you have encountered plenty of challenges even in your own training leading up to some of these bigger races too.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've been sick. I have a race in a week from now and I haven't run in a week because I've been recovering from like an illness. And I like what you said, though. You kind of have to roll with the punches a little bit. And it doesn't really, doesn't really do you good to dwell on the fact that you're not optimizing training or whatever. It's I think it's true both in training and in the race itself is that ability to sort of just adapt on the fly is pretty critical.

How do you go about training? Because I think quite a few people are familiar with what it's like to train for a half marathon, to train for a marathon, or, or even some of the 50K, 50-mile ultras. But how do you currently, let's say your recent race that you just did, a 300-mile race. It was 304 miles, 489k, with 150 miles above 12,000 foot. So at very high altitude. How do you train for something like that?

I mean, I think, I think the simplest answer is just very slowly over a long period of time. But I think, you know, for something like this, the 6 months, let's say, leading up to it from the previous race, It's a lot of cross-training. I believe in that. And I think, you know, there's a lot of different schools of thought on the amount of mileage one should give. I actually tend to favor lower mileage. Um, and so I don't think I did more than like a 100, 110-mile week.

You called that— dude, my wheels will be coming off.

You call that low? There are people that are training for marathons that will consistently do above 100 miles. Right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's what I have in mind here, but—

So, 100 miles, 162K.

Yeah.

Alright. Go—

go on. I think supplementing that with— I usually do a few different work— like strength-based workouts a week targeting single leg, pliability. The biggest thing I've done the past year that's changing is daily stretching and yoga, especially for injury prevention. That's been massive. It's kinda dumb, but I always like— I always say ABS, like always be stretching. And so, you know, even if you're on a call at work or, you know, you're just hanging out with friends, just, just be stretching. It just qualifies as a stretch.

I like that. Yeah. Tell me a bit more specifics. Strength training and stretching, in what sort of way do you go about it?

So for strength, let's start with strength training. Um, I usually do 2 to 3 HIIT-based, like 20 to 40-minute HIIT-based workouts. Um, not exceeding more than 25-pound dumbbells, so mostly body weight and with dumbbells pretty pretty light. And it's usually a combination of like Romanian deadlifts, Bulgarian split squats, various just squatting activities. So usually it's targeting the legs, but, you know, I'll throw in some push-ups and stuff, pull-ups to keep general fitness, a lot of core in that as well. And so that's one side of the strength training. And now I also try to lift heavy once a week, which is deadlift, squat, bench, and never maxing out. Like, I think you're risking injury if you're pushing weight. It's mostly to just by feel. So there's that for lifting. For stretching, I have like a small yoga routine that I'll kind of do 15 minutes every day, which took a while to get into the habit of committing to 'cause it's always tough to form new habits. But actually, what's ingrained for me is when I stop doing it for a few weeks, I like tweak something. And so I'm not saying that's the reason, but on some like internal, maybe almost superstitious level, I'm like, oh, it's 'cause I wasn't stretching. And so now it's like almost religiously making sure to stretch even just 10 to 15 minutes every day. Iterations of like downward dog, warrior pose, you know, just various yoga poses really.

Do you have a set time of day that you do these? Is this like first thing in the morning you make a part of like instead of brushing your teeth you're doing this or is it throughout the day?

I wish I could say I did. I'm not a very routine-based person and so sticking to routine has never worked for me. But usually just having this like internal checklist where it's like, I don't wanna go to sleep unless I've done these things, right? So stretch or, or whatever it is. Yeah. So usually I try to get like an intentional 15-minute stretch session in every day. It's, it's helpful to do it after the run just to keep the momentum from training. And that's usually a combination of different yoga poses. You know, a lot of downward dog, a lot of, warrior and just moving through different states that's sort of targeting things that might feel tight. Um, and then I'll foam roll. I think foam rolling is huge and it's just an easy thing to do. Uh, even just 5 minutes a day is helpful. Um, but then throughout the day, you know, just always be stretching.

Yes. For, for those who are not that familiar, or for those who want to start doing some more mobility or some more foam rolling, but they might be intimidated by it, or they might not have ever done it. How would you recommend going about it?

I think there's, there's not really a wrong way to do foam rolling, uh, specifically. I mean, if you're getting a tight part of your body or any part of your muscle that feels like it's tight and rolling it on something hard, even if it's just a lacrosse ball, that's going to be useful. Um, obviously getting a foam roller is, is a pretty good investment, And they're cheap. I think with mobility, something that's been good for me is integrating that into my downtime. And so if I'm just sitting on the couch watching TV, I'll have like a resistance band and do ankle mobility exercises. Just move my ankle in counterclockwise, clockwise motions. I like spelling the alphabet. And just, I started doing that in the sauna as well because I started doing sauna to heat train a bit. And just combining, you know, finding little ways to save time here and there because training can be such a big time investment that when you just integrate it into the rest of your life, you know, even I could be like, actually right now as we're talking, I'm rolling my foot on the bottom of a top of a lacrosse ball. It's, it's, I was doing that unconsciously, which is kind of funny. I didn't even realize it's—

No, but that's, that's perfect. It's nice when you're able to combine those things. I had a conversation with Dr. Rangan Chatterjee recently, and he talked about while you're making your coffee and doing like 10 lunges, 10 squats, and 10 calf raises. And that just right there, like, takes you 1 minute or 2 minutes while you're making your coffee, and you've done some of the strength and mobility already integrated there.

So I think so that's encouraging is it builds on itself over time, where for me, getting into more regular stretching, right, it takes a lot of mental energy and decision fatigue to be consciously trying to do that over and over again. But the more you do it and the more second nature it becomes, it's just, it's an afterthought. And once it becomes an afterthought, that's how you know you're like in a good spot where you're just, you're doing all the things you want to be doing, but without really consciously thinking of them. You know, it's, it's an encouraging thing.

Yes, absolutely. Tell me more about the heat training too, because I think heat training is absolutely fascinating. One of the most underutilized tools for endurance athletes, not just for ultra endurance athletes, but even for shorter distances. What's your protocol? How do you go about sauna training? How do you, how do you integrate heat training in your approach?

I'm hoping to integrate heat training more regularly this next year, which— so I'll go to the rock gym and I like to rock climb, but kind of just as cross-training, especially if I've like, if I've run too much, it forces me from doing too many miles because it's different motion. But rock gym has a sauna. And so a lot of times if I go there, I'll do my workouts there. I'll always make sure to do like a 20 to 25-minute sauna session after. And so incorporating that. But another thing is, you know, It seems heat training is like going to be the trendy thing of 2025, and it's a lot of literature suggesting it's like a very important aspect, right? So other ways to do that are just, I mean, going out and runs and wearing warmer clothes, like deliberately wearing warm clothes even if it's hot out to try to simulate heat training. I think that's like a very cost-effective way of doing that as well.

It's a cost-effective way, and those first few runs can be quite a miserable-like experience too, meaning You have to be quite cautious with this sometimes. I've overdone it as well, where I've, I've gone out with multiple layers of clothing, with a beanie, with gloves, with all this stuff. And you realize how quickly your heart rate goes up. You realize how quickly, like, the heating up process is happening. So it's this fine balance. Like, it's good to push yourself, but you want to be very cautious because it can be quite dangerous too. It's this balancing game of, like, easing into it versus, like, going too far, right?

It has certainly an important caveat. Uh, let's return to an earlier point, kind of connecting it. Like, it is, you know, especially a first run during heat training can be miserable, but if you find friends to do it with, there's something fun about the shared misery. Or like, oh, look how ridiculous we look, we're both bundled up and it's warm out and everyone's looking at us. It's like, it's fun and it's bonding if you're doing that with someone, right?

Oh, totally, totally. No, that's a, that's a good way of going about it. So I do want to take a deeper dive into your recent massive run that you did in Chile. Yeah. So this is one of your longest runs you've ever done, one of your most challenging runs you've ever done. Tell me more about it for those who are not familiar with it, like the Speed Project. Just high level, tell us a little bit more.

Yeah. So there's, there's this organization called the Speed Project that started out as this underground race from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. And it was originally done as a relay and it still is predominantly a relay. And the Los Angeles to Las Vegas is about, about 300 miles. I mean, the one fun thing about the race is that it's basically get from point A to point B. So Santa Monica Pier to the Welcome to Las Vegas sign, uh, and there's no route. So you're trying to optimize the route as well, which adds more details. Um, and they've started, they've since expanded that, that ethos to, uh, Chile and to the Atacama Desert. And so this race, uh, was called the Speed Project Atacama, and it started in Pica, which is sort of an hour east of the coast and ends on the eastern border of Chile, uh, in San Pedro de Atacama. And you basically just skirt the Bolivian border and you are in the Chilean mountains for most of the time. And it's, you know, the— it has the tagline of being the highest driest desert on Earth. And so going into this, I knew it would be the most extreme thing I'd done. It was a pretty—

the whole premise of the race is pretty crazy, uh, in And so then, like, what you just left out in that Santa Monica to Las Vegas thing is that you ran the solo run already there and that you actually won that division, right? So you had quite some experience actually going into it.

Yeah. Yeah. So that was so— oh yeah, I guess that's what I neglected is that it's usually a relay, but there's also this solo field of crazies that are trying to do the whole distance., you know, 280, 290 to 340, around that, depending on your route, by themselves. And yeah, in March, this was my longest distance, and I'd gone out and we set the record on that course.

How many hours was that?

That was 75?

75 hours, yeah. And that was— okay, so you started in Santa Monica at that point, ran all the way to Las Vegas. You had a You had a crew, support crew with you, correct?

Yeah. I mean, especially I love this idea that like running is a team sport, even though it's this solo effort, because I had a team of a crew of 6 and I could not have done it without any of them. We had RV and a 4x4, and the RV was kind of like the main vehicle and the 4x4 was a satellite. And, you know, they're, they're my crew is pacing me. They're giving me food, water. They're providing the route. Like, I'm just running. I actually think that my job is the easiest in that situation. It's just move forward. Like, it's, you're never more spoiled than when you're crewed in a run.

All right, and so you ended up getting through that race in 75 hours, got to Las Vegas all fired up. Before we move over from there to the more details of the Chile race, I do have to ask you a question that got brought up by someone over here at the office who said there's something about the casino afterwards. That happened, and that was a story that I had to ask you about. So I'm very curious to hear more about this, but there was something about everyone chips in some money about predicting the finish time and then go to the casino, black or red, or tell me more.

It's actually— this is a pretty critical part of the 75-hour story, is they have something called the side bet where everyone who's running can write down like a $5 or $10 bill what they think the winning time will be. Right? And so I came in pretty cocky and I was like, ah, 75 hours. Like, that's the winning time. I'm going to set the winning time. And the previous record I think was like 84 hours. So most of the time guesses were like a little bit ahead of that. And my buddy Ian, who was crewing me, he let me use his like new RAV4 car as a crew vehicle. And we just, we wrecked it. I feel so bad. We got the car stuck in a ditch. Like we had to get it towed at 3 in the morning. And in my mind, I'm like, I can win this side bet by getting exactly 75 hours because it's Price is Right rules. So I'm on pace for faster than 75 and I'm like, I need to slow down because I need to win this side bet so I can win Ian his money back to pay for his car damages. And I ended up, I think, walking the last 3 miles to hit exactly like on the dot 75 hours. But the downside of the story, I mean, this is the sad twist is that Tradition is whatever bet you win, you have to put it all on red or black at a casino. And we put it all on black and lost it.

Oh no. Oh well, at least, at least you really tried.

So yeah, I know it's, I think I could, I left a little bit on the table. I don't, I almost want to go back and post a slightly faster time. Just knowing that I was trying to hit the 75 hours to try to, try to win my friend some money from his car.

Well, breaking the course record by more than 9 hours is definitely legit there as well, so that's a, that's a win in my book. All right, and then fast forward to the whole Chile race. So this is an entire different experience, and I still want to make this relatable to people listening because obviously this is a race that most people listening would— even a marathon is a very far distance for most, and we're talking about 10x of a distance of a marathon. So What goes through your mind, like, at the start line of a race like this? And how did you keep yourself calm and controlled for, for a big race ahead?

I mean, mostly there's a lot of, like, excitement at the start line. And the way I see it is, you know, I've put in months, years of training, and this, the race day is like, it's a canvas, and it's like my chance to actually sort of show what I love and do what I love. And so reframing it like that, race day is the best day of the year, right? It's, it's, it's, it's a canvas and I'm the painter and I've been training and practicing for years and years and this is my chance to like make art in a way, you know? And so I think seeing ultra running as an art, even abstractly, I find to be a useful tool. Um, but to your point, I think there is, there's a lot of maturity that I, I probably didn't have 5 years ago and I, I don't think I still have. I'm still looking to get a bit more of, of of not going out too fast and not letting the excitement carry you. And especially in a race, you know, this is a 304-mile race. It's gonna take over 3, 4 days, right? And so there's just, there's no rush. There's no reason to rush anything or get ahead of yourself or get too excited. Like, it's more about settling into the run, right? And it's almost trying to normalize it. It's like the next 4 days my life is running. Why get all excited and sprint out the gate, you know?

The discipline and pace. The whole pace discipline is such a big one, and it's so easy even in a longer race like this to start too fast. I know people in shorter races start often too fast, um, but then yeah, here there's, there's plenty of walk breaks, there's plenty of sections where like walking is the only thing you could do, whether it's the altitude or whether it's like changing up the muscle groups. So how does a day like that look like? You're running, and then what do you do eating-wise? What do you do sleeping-wise? Just tell me a little bit more about some of, some of things you experienced that way?

Yeah, eating, eating is one of the bigger challenges in these races because you have to be fueling as much as possible, really. And so there's almost like this idea of if you can stomach more food, generally it's going to be, it's going to be better. And so I'm pretty constantly eating, which is also one of the appeals to these things, is like because you're going slower in a 300-mile distance, you don't have as much like stomach upset in this. I mean, you still have it, so it's certainly still part of it, but you can process like real food in a way that if you're racing a marathon, maybe you can't. And so, taking in— I mean, I'm still using gels and goos and various run products, but I'm also eating a lot of like real meals. And that could look like, you know, literal pasta meals, hamburgers. Like at some point, day 3, I had about half a Papa John's pizza we were able to find in the one town that we went to. And so, that was actually one of the highlights of the race for me was having real food., during that. The sleep is another interesting component where that in these distances is, I think, one of the separators from people that are really trying to push the pace. So for example, in the Vegas race, in 3 days, 75 hours, I slept 3, like under 3 hours.

Um, and so that's—

Holy smokes, dude.

Part of it. Yeah. How, how do you, like, how?

This is, this is, so for me, To take it back a step, like, I think that most people would find some sense of real benefit in a 100-miler, and that most people should attempt that at some point in their life. Like, I'm not going to prescribe that, but I think most people would find some value in it, right? But once you get to 200, 300 miles, I still think there's immense value. I find a lot more value in those personally, but the sleep deprivation is a piece that I think some of it might be genetic, some might be disposition. You have to be okay with being very out of it and loopy and very okay with the possibility of hallucinating, which is going to happen if you're pushing that level of sleep deprivation. But even then, I mean, there's an art of trying to balance, like, if I sleep more, am I going to be faster versus can I still push and still move? And so a lot of it, you can try to be very precise with your planning before, but it's going to be in the moment making decisions. And that's, that's actually, I think, the importance of crew because, you know, night 3, I'm loopy, I'm not in a good headspace to make great decisions. And so my crew is to step in and be like, no, you need to sleep 20 minutes now. Right? And so having someone to delegate that is actually, I think, super important. Absolutely.

How do you go about optimizing a 20-minute sleep? Like, I'm sure that you have some strategy to be able to—

Yeah.

Make, make it happen. So talk us through that for anyone listening, wanting to do an ultra, wanting to find a way to at least take in some sleep here or there.

How do you go about it? I think there's two main parts to that for me at least. And the first is running until you're at a place that you're so beat tired that you're going to fall asleep instantly. Like if you are not tired, even if you haven't slept in, you know, 20 hours, don't stop. There's no need to force sleep if you don't need to sleep. Right. And so the other thing for me is I love— I find it very helpful to put my feet up and elevate them above my heart. And so in that nap, like just putting my luggage or luggage, whatever you call it, whatever, whatever I have under my feet and kicking my feet up and just getting off my feet with them up. Like, that'll actually decrease the swelling a bit as well. And for those 20 minutes, and then wake up and, and go. So that's 2 things. I think a 3rd thing that's important is if you are— let's say you've portioned out 20 to 45 minutes of sleep or whatever, and you sit down to sleep and you can't— like, you don't waste that time. If you can't sleep, get up and go until you can sleep, you know? So almost being able to like cut your plan short and say, you know what, I can't sleep, I need to get up and keep moving. But again, the sleep part is very difficult to navigate. And my general theory these days is push until you absolutely need to sleep. And for me, that looks like mild hallucinations I can deal with, but this happened in both Chile and Vegas. Like the outside of my vision starts going a bit like black and gets darker and darker. And so for me, if I can't see, then I need to go to sleep.

Do you have any concerns health-wise?

Yes, that's a great question. So I think my concerns health-wise are specifically all around the sleep deprivation, because that part does not strike me as healthy. But the concerns are sort of assuaged by this idea that in order to successfully run a distance of 300 miles, you have to be so healthy in every other aspect of your life that I think, relative to someone that is not running 300 miles, right, it's there's, there's this extreme health from having to do it, and it gets brought down a little bit by the sleep deprivation, but that level is still overall like a healthy thing. I do wonder about that. But again, every, every once in a while, you know, once a year, twice a year, I think there might be value in, in pushing your body and mind to that limit.

Um, it's an interesting one. You say that though, even, even there, even when I look at sometimes the question comes up in a running coaching program, like we have a Personal Best Running coaching program, and the question comes up like, hey, is marathon running the healthiest for you for longevity? And I think like even there, I think running multiple marathons and training like X amount of miles a week, is that necessarily the most optimal way for health? Or is it All right, you do X amount of running, but you don't necessarily go over 90 minutes, 2 hours. You do X amount of strength training. And like, I think there's different goals, different— they align to some extent, but they don't completely overlap either. But the person who even trains for marathons, that person generally lives a lot healthier than most of the other people that might just be sitting on the couch or doing other things. And so Yeah, I think it's still generally a net positive, even though sometimes we might be overdoing it or might be pushing it.

So it's, it's a really interesting question, right? And I think especially for something that's extreme, it's an important question to ask. And I think I'm of this camp that there is both a healthy way to run this distance and an unhealthy way. And I see a lot of people who end up running in a very, like, unhealthy manner. And it's, it's almost like this compulsion to be doing 100+ mile weeks and this need to run. And I think the solution, quote unquote, would be you have to really evaluate like what you're doing it for, what you get out of it, and is it worth it? And for me, I think, you know, maybe these 300-mile efforts where I don't get sleep, maybe that is not terribly healthy for me, but I think the value that I get out of it is more important than the hit to the health that I take from that race. And again, I think, you know, it's just like the marathon, you have to be healthy in order to make it work, right? You're training more, you're getting outside more, you're, Ideally, you're eating healthier. And so in every other aspect of your life, you are being healthy. And this is like your, your one vice, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more about your gear, head to toe, running watch, like shoes, like sun protection. In what sort of way did you go about this race? Because there's a lot more to think about with a long race like this than there is with shorter distances. So I think gear does play a big role.

Tell me more there. It does. I mean, let's— okay, let's start, let's start bottom up. Let's start with shoes. Uh, I like the idea of changing shoes every 50 miles, and I'll do this in most of my races no matter how I'm feeling at the time, and doing a sock change. And I'll use like— I, I like to use toe socks. Everyone that I know that is not a runner thinks they're like aesthetically abhorrent, and I'm okay with that. Uh, but every 50 miles I will put like Body Glide or Squirrel's Nut Butter, so like an anti-chafe cream all over my feet, put on a new pair of toe socks, put on a new pair, not a new pair, but like a separate pair of shoes, and then just keep riding that process. So I guess I switched, I had 4 pairs of running shoes that I cycled through for this race.

And is that a separate pair of, is that a separate pair of shoes just so you have dry feet?

Is that why? That can be helpful in a race with river crossings. In this Chile race, you know, driest desert on earth, my feet didn't really get wet, but it's more for the repetitive motion and for micro changes in your form. And I don't know if this is like a generally accepted thing, but this is personally just how I approach these distances is it's the repetitive motion that's gonna cause the chafing, the blisters, the injury, and even changing shoes to one that's like, you know, I was, these were all Hokas that I was racing in, but 4 different models. Like I feel myself changing my gait ever so slightly and I think that's useful. To break up the repetitive motion. And I probably, 'cause it was dry, I didn't get a single blister in this race.

Wow.

I lost, I lost 2 toenails, but no, I'll take that for no blisters. Okay. So shoes, that's, that's to start, shoes and socks. Um, I think a point there is the chafing. Like you have to be putting on anti-chafe cream, um, especially for any pressure point, especially for even weird things like the neck, you know, the way the CamelBak tube runs against my neck. It's like little things like that are easy to overlook and you wanna be proactive with that as much as possible. In terms of like gear and pack, I always have like a run pack with me. Muling is allowed in these speed project races and muling is where someone else can carry your stuff for you. Usually in like an official 100-mile race, you have to carry all your own stuff. So a lot of times I'd have my pacer, so someone that's running with me carry my pack, but I always wanted to be holding a water bottle just because if you're holding it, you're going to be taking in more fluid and sipping more. For the desert, I think one of the biggest things is coverage. And so, you know, this— you're both at 12,000 to 15,000 feet and it's, it's exposed and you're outside for however long it's light. Right. And so if you're not, I don't think you should even really be running in like tank tops, sleeveless, all that much, except in pockets where it's not crazy sunny because you're gonna get terribly burnt. And I was putting on sunscreen as much as I could every few miles, and I still had, like, my lips had the worst burn of my life. You know, it took like a few weeks for them to heal. But I think for gear, like, having breathable, comfortable run gear that, like, is long sleeve and covers your skin is super important.

It is a fine line, right? Because you would think sometimes with some of the apparel that less is more, but sometimes more is better. Meaning when you're protected from the sun and you have the right fabrics, then at that point you're much better off and you don't get burned to that extent. And that keeps your body temperature cooler as well. So it's this fine line.

It really is. Yeah, I think in these multi-day events especially, going the coverage route is much more important. I mean, also, you, you lose— you're losing less energy from skin being exposed, right? I think getting burnt would be a pretty devastating setback if it's you burnt day 1 or 2, and then you have to ride that out for 2 more days. Um, day 4, I always say you could do whatever you want, just, just get to the finish line.

But first few days, you know, yeah, I even, I even saw you wearing like long baseliners and compression sleeves and all sorts of stuff just to keep the sun off, right?

Yeah, yeah, I just didn't want— I wanted as little bit— as little of my skin exposed as possible, especially between like 11 AM and 4 PM. That, and then I had a bunch of like cooling towels and an ice bandana, and my crew was like soaking me in ice as much as possible. And so core body temperature is a really big aspect in these things, especially if you're running for, you know, multiple days. And, you know, this is the driest desert in the world, and I didn't want to take it lightly.

Yeah, no, I, I can imagine. So does that— what about, were you able to get everything on one Strava segment? Were you able to record everything on one run or did your, did your watch run out on that one?

My watch was good, but the key is when you're sleeping, if you have a crew, you want your crew to charge the watch while you sleep. And so the Coros in particular, I use Coros. I think Garmin's pretty similar as well. Like their battery life is just insane.. And so usually I think the battery life is like 72 hours. And so if you can get even just one hour-long charge in there midway through the race, like I was able to get it all in one run. Yeah, I think it, I, I used to try to map on my phone and on my watch, but it drains so much battery on the phone that I just do watch now.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is fascinating. What, What was your lowest point of the Chile project and how did you work through that?

Oh man, I don't even know which day. I think I, I wanna say the second day. It's crazy how it blurs together, but it's pretty early in the race, right? I'm, I've, I've gone probably like 100-something miles and I'm just feeling so altitude sick and my crew is struggling from altitude. And I, I'd come down from this mountain, I was meeting with my crew, and I only saw one car. And it turns out that like one of my crew had to emergency descend, so we took one of the vehicles and, uh, one of the crew drove another one down to a lower elevation town because he just wouldn't get better from altitude sickness. And that, you know, was the right move, but it threw a wrench in the logistics and which things were in which car, and just group energy was low, my energy was low. I tried to eat like a pasta meal and keep going. And this was maybe 10:00 PM. And I just, I puked everything. I had just changed into a new pair of shoes and I puked all over them. And that was this low where my crew had driven a few miles ahead. I couldn't stomach any food. I was just like sitting there wondering what I was gonna do. 'Cause I had 200 miles left in this race. And it's, you know, it's simple and it's like everyone knows this, but you just have to keep moving and trust that things are gonna change. You know, and so I think the big— that low, it was tough though, because it's like, I just knew that I had to keep moving, but I didn't know if I was gonna be able to finish the race because of health reasons. Because if I couldn't stomach any food, there's no way I can move for, you know, 2 more days. Um, and it was night and it was cold and I was by myself and, you know, little things you start to get mad at, like your chafing. And I think, but yeah, that just moving and getting through that was big. The other low, Um, which was maybe more significant was I didn't really go into this race caring all that much about like the outcome. I wanted to do the distance, but on some level I obviously I wanted to win, I want to set the record. And I had been in first place running, and at some point via the live Instagram updates that the Speed Project was giving, I found out that there was a person that had taken a shortcut because you can take whatever route you and was now thoroughly ahead of me in a way that I couldn't catch them. And so I think there was this big mental reframing that I had to do of like questioning like why I was doing it in the first place. You know, it's 3 days into the run, I'm exhausted, I've gone through the craziest physical experiences I've been through. And I think that, you know, I'm getting to the home stretch and gonna win this thing. And I find out that I'm not. And I think there's this, I don't know, I think it almost forces you to double down on why you do these things and what you care about. And so it was a low, but I think it was a meaningful low in the sense that it was like, well, this was— it was never about winning. It's never about, you know, this singular place or some sense of like personal glory. Because especially in 300-mile runs, like, the vast majority of the world doesn't care. There's not this like immense amount of glory. It's a very self-motivated endeavor. And so it allowed me to like double down on, on the joy that I was getting in the experience and the run and being in the desert with 6 of my friends Right? And so that was, that was a very meaningful low.

We learn a lot from the lows and we learn a lot from the highs. What was, what was your favorite point? What was your favorite experience of, of that whole race?

Of the whole race? It was actually, it was pretty soon after that low, cuz it's crazy how quickly these things can swing. Like you could feel utterly devastated and then 5 minutes later feel on top of the world. And that's just the nature of these runs. And it was probably about a couple hours after I'd found out that that I was not going to win the thing. And I still had to move. We still had probably 30, 40 miles left to get into San Pedro, which is the town we finish in. And it was the sunset on day 4. And I just, I had this like transcendent moment where I felt myself just kind of like dissolving. And I was with, I was with my friends. I felt just sort of this presence moving forward. And it was, it was certainly an ego death. And I think it's something that is very akin to like a psilocybin experience. And it's crazy that you can achieve that from, from just running. But I think there's a lot of parallels there where you feel this sense of love for, for the world, for self, for others. You see, you feel a sense of connectedness, right? And the fact that that comes from running— I mean, I think the sleep, sleep deprivation is also part of it, but mostly running—

is a very beautiful thing. So well said. And I think the part you just mentioned too, I want everyone listening to realize that part. Sometimes you're in the lowest of low, and this can come by in any situation of life. This can be not only in a race, this can be in training, this can be in your daily life. And you really think like it's going to be hard to get out of that, yet something can change, and within a short period of time you can be feeling on top of the world again. And sometimes it's really hard to see that when you're in the moment. And I think All you can do at that moment is like focus on what you can control. What are those few things you can do at that point to keep moving forward or to keep adjusting or to keep making little tweaks and believing that it could get better? I think sometimes just you lose belief, but I think this is where either relying on others, we're relying on self or relying on like God, like, like whatever spiritual connection you have, I think can help. Help give you that additional boost to keep going.

100%. I mean, it's, it's almost this, like, you have to have this trust that everything you're feeling is not the whole view, right? And even in that moment, like, in those deep lows, it feels like the most all-encompassing thing. But sort of being able to take a step back and look at it from this, like, higher order perspective of, I'm feeling these things right now, but like, in 20 minutes I might not be, is a very, very important exercise.

So yeah, I love that. It is. And I think those moments, it's like this big onion, right? The whole race, like you're peeling off layers and then you get to the pure core. But very few people get to experience it to that deep of a level. Like whether that's in the end of a marathon or whether that's at the end of one of these longer runs, it's like where you truly discover yourself and it's so raw. And I think the emotions are so raw, like the highs and lows. It all comes out purely from within. But that's, that's a beautiful experience, man. Yeah.

And that metaphor of these layers being peeled back, that's what it feels like, is over days and days, every part, like even all these defenses you put up, thoughts you put up for whatever it is you're going through, like it just all gets stripped back and you're left with this like very special inside that is very difficult. I don't, I think there are other ways of accessing it. I don't think running is the only way, but I think it's, it's one avenue to feeling that level of rawness.

Yeah, it really is. It really is. This is really fascinating. This is, this is awesome, man. What do you possibly do after a race like this? As in, what, what will be your next? Because you have gone bigger and longer every time, but what, what would be one of your next bucket list items from here?

That's a great question. Um, I think the, the longer things would be, you know, FKTs and any sort of, uh, significant FKT would be, you know, something like 800 miles. It'd be interesting. Yeah, that's, that's what I'm looking at. I'm kind of doubling down this year on the 200 world and seeing if I can kind of try to optimize for those more. So I'm racing, it's called the Triple Crown of 200. So it's Tahoe 200, Moab 240, and Bigfoot 200. And that's definitely, I mean, that's my focus, but even after that, I think I have to ask the question of like, I'm like, you know, what's next? Then what? And I don't know. I'm excited to figure out what it is, but I find that the longer the distance I've gone and the more— it's really about the more I have to push, the more the reward is, right? It's very proportionate. And so, I would like to do something even more difficult than Chile, but I need to figure out what that is. So, I'm keeping my eyes and ears peeled.

I'm excited for you, man. Do you have any closing thoughts? There's quite some people listening looking to become a stronger, healthier, happier athlete. Do you have any advice for people, um, that you would like to share from your experiences and on your end?

I think the biggest change for me as I sort of went from ultra running more as a hobby to taking it a bit more seriously and trying to figure out what that was, um, was leaning into those elements that I enjoy. And, and if you're not enjoying it, you don't— there's no need to do it, right? You don't need to be miserable training, but if you can find ways to make training as fun as possible, whether that's running with friends or making fun quirky challenges is it's going to make the rest of your journey much easier. And it's true in training, and I think it's doubly true in the race, is enjoy it.

Right?

You're seeking— even if it is at some times miserable and painful, you're seeking that rawness. And you have to go through the misery and the pain to get there.

So well said. So by the time this video and podcast is out, there will also be a video recap of your speed project in Chile. Where can people find that? Where can people find your social channels?

I'm mostly on Instagram. It's just my name, @aaronkubala. And we'll be posting sort of some reels leading up to the overall video once we release that. But excited to sort of tell this story from— you get to see the behind-the-scenes footage of the race a bit more.

Awesome. And I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. Aaron, thank you so much. And next time we're in the same spot out of San Francisco, Chicago or Austin, we'll definitely have to link up for a run. So, oh, absolutely. All right, have a good one, Aaron. Thanks so much for watching. Aaron is an absolute beast, and I hope that you enjoyed some of these lessons that apply to runners of all levels, really. Let me know in the comments what was your favorite takeaway, quote, or lesson from this episode. Really love reading all the takeaways and would love to hear from you. The next episode after this is going to be with the Believe in the Run crew. This is Thomas, Megan, and Robbie, and we're going to take a deep dive into running gear, how to find the right running shoes, underappreciated or underrated running items, and their advice for recreational runners looking to improve. So I think you will enjoy that one. It's going to be launching live soon here as well. Have fun out there on your runs, guys. Have a good one. Bye now.