MAF Training and Nutrition with Andy Hooks | Extramilest Show #21

And then it was all a step-by-step process. And you know, you're gonna have, you're not gonna really improve your times right then and there. It's gonna be gradual, but you would enjoy the run and you would get better. You become far more efficient with your aerobic base. And so since I started doing that, it would start from like 4 miles a day, 3 miles a day, and then it would slowly build up to where I could go 4, 5, 6, 7 at a time. And kept my heart rate below the 180 formula. Um, for me at that time, I think it was 150. And so I would just make sure and I would get my chest strap heart rate monitor. I got all that stuff. And then to me, it became a lot less about trying to qualify for Boston but became more of a love of running again.

Yeah, that is such an important switch right there.

Yeah. And I think that part is what allow me to become a better runner. It's, I think, you know how everyone wants to have this personal goal of getting to a certain, you know, a certain race, which is always a great thing to do, but I think the most important part is to enjoy it. It's hard to be with something forever and not, you know, not fall in love with it. I think that's the most important thing I found out of it was I was able to go every day and you get an inner peace with everything, with your job and life. Um, just by doing that. It was great.

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of The Extra Mileage Show. My name is Floris Geurman, and today I'm talking to my friend Andy Hooks. We talk about heart rate training, we talk about nutrition, and we talk about different ways to improve in your running. Andy himself has improved significantly over just the last few years. His first marathon was in 4 hours 22 minutes, and over time with a heart rate based training approach. He's been able to lower that to a 2:53 so far, and he's looking to break 2:40 or 2:45 at the Berlin Marathon in a few weeks. Before we dive into Andy's story, I want to give a brief update from my end because it has been a while since I posted my last videos and podcast. I'm very excited to start training for my next race. It's going to be the Sacramento Marathon, the CIM Marathon in December. Currently, I'm at the early stages of a new training cycle. I'm at about 6 hours a week, and soon I'm going to start increasing the training volume, and I'm going to start adding some speed work as well. Very excited for that. This summer, there's been a lot of great progress with our running apparel company PATH Projects. Besides this, I've spent a lot of time and effort on finishing the Marathon PR program. There are no ads on this podcast, but I do want to bring up some additional info about this program. As some of you may know, I'm quite often asked if I can provide one-on-one coaching services. And instead of doing this, I've developed an overall training program that is heart rate based that I feel really was a missing link out there. I see there's a lot of different training programs for marathons and different distances out there, yet I'd always been having a difficult time finding something heart rate specific. So what I've done is I've developed 30 new videos and 10 different training schedules that are all focused around heart rate-based running. It looks at 5 different fundamentals. So looking at low heart rate training and developing an aerobic base, limiting stress, the right nutrition, mindset, and the right race strategies as well. There are a lot of different training programs out there. I was just never able to find anything that was very heart rate-specific based fit right for me, and therefore I developed this program. We only launched a month ago, and at this point there's already runners from 25 countries that enrolled in this program, and the feedback has been very positive. More info can be found at extramilest.com/marathon. Moving on to Andy Hooks, he's an incredible runner, and I'm very excited how he's been able to open up and share not only about his successes but also about his failures and his injuries and how he overcame that with the right mindset. Several of the things that he mentions on the podcast I've been able to implement in my own training already this week. He brought up, for example, the importance of sodium and potassium intake, and this was a reminder for me once again to actually look into that. And I actually increased the intake, and all of a sudden I noticed that my energy levels increased as well, especially when I'm running right now a higher training volume in higher and warmer weather as well. I'm not going to spoil more. All show notes from today's episode can be found on my website extramileage.com/21. That's the number 21. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Andy Hooks.

Yeah, Andy, welcome to the show. I'm glad to have you here.

I'm glad to be here. It's been a long time.

Yeah, absolutely. We were talking before the show for a little bit, and it's always fascinating to me when someone is saying, I went for a recovery run of 11 miles this morning, and I will tell you, I'm in the building stages myself of training, and yesterday I did my longest run, and that was 11 miles. So yeah, it's all in perspective there.

It's all in perspective, but also it's also more of quality over quantity. So a quality 11 miles goes much better than a quantity 20 if you do it right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you're running in the heat as well, right? You're located in Texas.

Mm-hmm. We're in South Texas here in San Antonio. And right now I feel like now I know what it's like to be in the Congo region with the humidity and the heat.

Yeah. What was it like this morning on your run?

Oh, it was, it's pretty much if you feel like you're stuck in really in the jungle where you, it's, the humidity was 95% this morning with a temperature of like 80. And so it is. You're learning how to breathe properly because it's hard to. Yeah. And as soon as you walk out, you can be in air conditioning, and then if you're wearing glasses, everything would just fog up right then and there. Yeah, it was crazy this morning, but it's like this every morning.

So I can only imagine. Let's dive into that a lot more later on. Just so the audience can get a better understanding about who you are and what your background is, I think it would be good to hear a little bit more. How did you get into running? What do you do on a daily How is your training schedule like? Just a bit more about Andy.

Sure. Well, I'm originally Kilian Jornet's and Zac Bitter's trainers. I tell them how to do everything. I'm joking. Not even close. No, my first start into running was like everyone, when you do it in junior high and high school. And eventually when you go into college, you kind of forget or you kind of go away from running. You kind of do the normal life routine. And so, I think it was about 2013, I was starting to do, working a night shift as a nurse in the emergency room. And I became insomniac for those times because it's hard to really sleep if you're doing night shifts and things of that nature. So eventually I had to find a way, and a friend of mine kind of suggested to go back into running. And so then it kind of felt like just the on switch for it. Felt like I was kind of back to where I was when I was younger., and you run like 3 or 4 miles at a time. And that would just help me go back to sleep. And it's pretty much, that was the routine. And a friend of mine who I was very thankful for, she said, you should do a 10K. And I was like, well, I've never done any races since high school. And I never really even thought of like 5K, 10Ks, that they even have these. I thought, yeah, why not? Um, and just immediately then I just got hooked onto it because it was so much fun. It's— if anyone's never done any races before, it's a completely different form of competitiveness. Anyone who's ever done any races knows it's way different. There's not anyone trying to hurt or trying to beat other people. Everyone's coming together just to have fun, but you get this competitive nature against yourself. That kind of made me, "Oh, okay, so maybe I can do a 10K." One thing spurred after another. I thought, "You know what? Maybe I'll just try to do a half marathon," and I did it in Disney. And I thought, well, I did pretty well at that. So I thought, you know what, I'll do a marathon at Disney in January of 2016. And that was my first set with the humidity, even though it was in San Antonio. And that, it was a 4:10 marathon, or 4:19, it was something like that. And I thought, okay, I'm done. That's enough. No more. I think I now know what the marathons are like.

Okay, I'm good. Why was that in hindsight? Was that the training buildup? Training was not good or was the race strategy not good?

Well, there was really no training. It was just more of, you know, you run 3 or 4 miles. I never had a really good sense of training-wise. I would just, you know, it's just kind of more of doing a roundabout kind of thing, just, you know, go out there and run. And I thought, well, how about if I do the next month, like I really got hooked back on it, so maybe I'll just try to break 4. And the next month I ran this one race in Austin, Texas, and I broke 4. So, and I really got the bug for doing marathons after that, where everyone, when you run it, you hate it, and then the next day you're like, oh, let me sign up for another one. So, but, uh, but yeah, so that point I thought, okay, so I need to have a training program. And so you go through the list of all the trainers. I'm sure everyone's, you know, heard of Jeff Galloway, Keegan Fitzpatrick, and, um, Jack Daniels— not the drink, there's actually a person named Jack Daniels. And, and so you kind of go, go through different ones and you see which one works the best. And, um, for the most part, it was all more of like, you know, hard, not so much of easy runs, but there were a lot of ones where you do a lot of hard tempo, kind of fast, and you want to run your hardest. And then sometimes I'd be with running groups, people running hard. And to me, that just wasn't sustaining for a long period of time. And I was trying to find one that was set where I could do it every day and also do ones where I would actually enjoy running. Because sometimes with those running groups and sometimes with doing things that are beyond your capacity, you tend to burn out like many other activities. And I think it was like we were talking, like either late 2016 or early 2017, I went down the YouTube rabbit hole And just so happened your video popped up and it was talking about how to run a sub-3-hour or get into Boston Marathon. And what was interesting about it was when you were running, you were just talking like you weren't putting much energy out. You weren't sprinting. You were just like regularly talking. You were talking about heart rate training. And really that's where none of these, uh, other books would even talk about was your heart rate, but also effort-wise. And so to me, that just kind of more clicked at that moment where, okay, and then it was all a step-by-step process. And you know, you're gonna have, you're not gonna really improve your times right then and there. It's gonna be gradual, but you would enjoy the run and you would get better. You become far more efficient with your aerobic base. And so since I started doing that, it would start from like 4 miles a day, 3 miles a day, and then it would slowly build up to where I could go 4, 5, 6, 7 at a time and kept my heart rate below the 180 formula. Um, for me at that time, I think it was 150. And so I would just make sure and I would get my chest strap heart rate monitor. I got all that stuff. And then to me, it became a lot less about trying to qualify for Boston, but became more of a love of running again.

Yeah, and that is such an important switch right there.

Yeah, and I think that part is what allowed me to become a better runner. It's, I think, you know how everyone wants to have this personal goal of getting to a certain, you know, a certain race, which is always a great thing to do, but I think the most important part is to enjoy it. It's hard to be with something forever and not, you know, and not fall in love with it. I think that's the That's the most important thing I found out of it was I was able to go every day and you get an inner peace with everything, with your job and life, just by doing that.

It was great. It's fascinating how indeed when you focus on becoming a stronger, healthier athlete and you're truly enjoying your workouts, then the speed indeed will follow. Yet when you only focus on that speed component, it's hard to get it all moving forward.

And then, you know, especially with speed, I mean, with a lot of people, if you go at it too hard, you're going to get more likely to get injured. And I experienced that lots of times when I was trying to get into, to get into like all these races, because I immediately, that's what I thought you had to do was get all the, you know, it was to get speed, not your aerobic base. But once I got the aerobic base, everything kind of really fell into place. I think that was the most important part of the training. Was to get the foundation set.

So how did your race performance and your training impact after that, after you made that change?

Well, it was a weird time before. It actually suffered quite a bit, but it wasn't because of the run. So it was like early, late 2016, early 2017. There were a lot of things I did hampered. So I did— so this was like the early beginning part of my experimental phase. So in 2017, I did a half marathon in Austin, and that was before, because I ran the sub-4 hours, but I just wanted to do a half and see how I do. Well, I started experimenting with coconut oils and the, the MCT oils because of the boost of energy. However, I Did not expect how much it could affect your gastrointestinal system. So I took more than double the dose and I was hurting so bad. So that part was not good. So I learned not to do that because I had to walk for like an hour.

And that was during a race.

And that was during the race. Yeah. So, so that was fun. And then, um, and then in March when I was getting ready to do the Myrtle Beach Marathon, um, I developed runner's knee or chondromalacia, and that part knocked me out for 6 weeks. And I had to miss another marathon race in, um, Dallas that was going to be the month after that. And so I had to drop out of those 2 races. And so I really didn't have a chance to run and do much of— or really much running. Most of it was just biking and swimming and things of that nature. But prior to then, I was still working on aerobic base. And then because of all that, I did learn how to become more of a forefoot striker and not so much primarily heel foot striker where my leg would be straight and it would be all that pressure was on my knees. So the following that May, so this was 6 or 8 weeks out from finally being able to run again, I ran the Cincinnati Flying Pig Marathon, which I ran the year before, which I think I ran 3:51, and this, that 2017, I actually ran 3:20. So I actually ran a half hour faster With almost a 6-week break, but during that primary, during that time, I was doing more math running. And then June, July, and August, uh, I kept going with the math running. And then September, I was going to then Boston qualify for this last race. Well, mile 15 happened, and then it was so downhill and so much pressure on my calves that I strained my calf. Wow. Yeah, so, so that one I had to— did not finish on that one. Then I had to wait again to get healed up. Most of these were not because of my math training. It was all because of external factors. A lot of it was testing patience quite a bit during that time.

That was fun. It's fascinating how you have experienced several different types of injuries, whether it's the knee or the calf, or not necessarily all injuries, but sometimes like a DNF. Even with low heart rate training and then the racing.

Yeah, yeah, but, uh, but mostly it wasn't because of the app. It was a lot— it's a lot like if someone were to throw you into a pool, you need to learn how to swim. So you just can't swim and then be a great swimmer without learning proper technique in running. And that— I think that was mostly another reason. So I, as well as the map, I learned proper running techniques, and I think that helped me out because I started to do month after month. I was doing marathons after marathon— Chicago, Honolulu, and everything else. And then, so then 2018 rolled around and I started to get 3:10s, 3 low 3s, and I thought, okay, so now I'm really starting to become a more efficient runner with my MAP training. So I was going about 60, 70, 80 miles a week during that time period and always keeping it below 150. And I would mainly do speed work 6 to 8 weeks prior to the race and then do it like once a week. Uh, really, if I'm not doing any kind of race up till then, I'm never going to do any speed work if I can help it. So, but that kind of gets me more on my experimental phase. And so, uh, so I was going to try to qualify for, for Boston. So the one race was going to come up was in July and this was in Mount Hood, uh, Portland Marathon. So I was always experimenting between nutrition and everything of that nature. So this came about with— I don't know if you want to talk about it now or later.

Oh yeah, because I love this part, like it's the 48-hour story.

Yeah, yeah, please do share. But this is also with one of your videos because you did the 100— the one I was most impressed with, but I don't know if that was your most hits on YouTube or not, was the 100-mile run. Yeah, that was a fun one. Yeah. So, uh, and you always would talk about the bonk, which was always about 18 or 20. And so, and I always, you know, you always hear about there's two halves to a marathon, the first half, which is the first 20 miles, and then the second half, which is the last 6.2 or 8, depending on the part. So I was like, you know what, I need to know where— and this was a, for me, I need to know where is my point, because at that time I was trying to get more into a nutritional phase of getting the right type of foods. And I was curious over if I didn't have any food. So I went on a 48-hour fast before the race, but, but the main goal was, is to, I'll stay at this heart rate at 160. That would be my average heart rate, uh, throughout the race and then see at what point would I then bonk.

So.

Were you even familiar with fasting? Was your body even used to fasting? Had you done much intermittent fasting or regular 24 or 48-hour fast?

Yeah, I actually did. So I started doing the intermittent fasting about February, January, February, March, somewhere around that time period during that year. And I was becoming a far more efficient runner because of If you kept your MAF below, you'd still be in the aerobic phase. You become more of a fat burner, more than a glycogen, because you're not running that hard. So you're not running to your lactate threshold. And I was feeling good the whole entire time. So I think for most people, if you don't have much food in you, because sometimes after a meal, the last thing you want to do is go run because you're just feeling groggy and you're just like, okay, I need to relax a little bit. But then like, I think that's why I like morning runs because You don't have much in you, and as long as you're hydrated, you feel really good. I was always wondering at what point is my breaking point on that. It wasn't a strictly water fast. I would take those salt tabs. Prior, for that 48 hours, I just took your regular electrolytes, and it was just that. Then during the race, I would just take water, and I would just take the electrolytes. And then see, but stay at 160. So then I could say, all right, so what would my nutrition need to be during, uh, during a marathon and before a marathon? Bear in mind, I'm still trying to Boston qualify, so why not experiment when you're trying to get a race? You know, that's the best way to do it. Yeah. Oh, I ran and I was actually doing pretty well, and I think it was about mile 18, mile 19, that's where The bonk happened and it hit and it hit hard. So I was just struggling just to get through, but I managed to finish in 3 hours, 3 hours and 20, 30 seconds, whatever. But it was at 3 hours and you hadn't consumed any calories throughout the race so far either. Nope. It was just water and just electrolytes. And, um, needless to say, that is there. I was much as I want to be joyed that I qualified for Boston because my time had to be 3:10 at the time. Uh, it's probably changed. I think 3:05 or whatever it is now, but I qualified for it. Uh, I couldn't really be celebrating. I was hurting so much afterwards.

I can, uh, I can imagine.

Oh yeah. And I mainly thought this was a really dumb idea, but, but it helped, uh, because then I knew, okay, I just need to have a certain amount of calories. And then also the one thing I also did learn was I needed— the one thing is, is the sodium potassium. So, and then also to make sure I got the right calories in me. So since then, I've kind of tinkered and toyed with everything with heart rate and then also in nutrition. So I think that has helped me out more so than anything where now I can go 100, 120 miles a week if I really need to and still feel good while training. So I wouldn't recommend this to everybody. If anyone says, oh, I'm gonna fast— no, please don't. I was being stupid. I was just— I can only say that was for me. Do not, please.

But, but then again, I do think sometimes through experiments it's good to kind of learn where your boundaries is and what's working and what's working not, whether that is with, with fasting, whether it's with hydration, nutrition, any of these things. I think I heard a story recently about Kilian, who went on for 5 days and he basically tried to see how long could he not eat while maintaining his regular training schedule. And on day 5, while still training hard, day 5 he passed out on a run and that's when he found his limit. And obviously that's very extreme, but at the other hand, I do it all the time, whether it is from like a type of food or type of shoe or how long can I sit in the sauna. Obviously you want to listen to your body and build up to certain things and be healthy about things. But at the other hand, yeah.

But I also think if you're going to do that, make sure there's people around just so that way if anything were to happen.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Because that's the other thing. Dangerous things can happen. You gotta be really smart about that.

Oh yeah, and I thought if you're gonna do it during a marathon, there's a lot of personnel for all that, so I thought that would help me out tremendously. So if anything were to bad happen, I would have help immediately.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. What were some of the other conclusions that you were able to draw out of some of these experiments you've been doing?

Well, just for the running side, I found how long I can go for just for the heart rate. So I then wanted to tinker a little bit with Houston this past year where this was in January and the temperatures were pretty cold. I think it was about 30, high 30s, low 40s, but actually surprisingly for South Texas and the Gulf, it had low humidity. So just as a gauge for when I was going into Boston, since I qualified, I wanted to see where my heart rate would be. And then also how, how would it be if I just had— so I had nutrition, a decent nutrition. So for the morning of about 2 to 3 hours. I would have, uh, really just some oatmeal, but also try to have something with a lot of potassium. So really, um, I had an avocado that morning and then also mainly just water. And then also at the time would be like a sugar-free, uh, energy, uh, not energy drink, uh, Powerade or Gatorade, something of that nature. So, and I would tell myself I would not go past 160 heart rate. I wanted to be in the 150s. Throughout.

So that was about 10 beats above your math.

Yes. Um, and also at that time though too was during the race, I did not want to take anything of Gatorade or anything else. It would just be water and I would just have electrolytes. So I did not want to take anything of a sugary substance. I had one gel, but it wasn't, um, it was a gel that didn't have a specific type of, uh, ingredient, which is maltodextrin. So we can go into that, why I don't— why I try to stay away from that. So I had 2 of those in my pocket. However, I only had 1 because mile 18, when I wanted to open it, my hand slipped, or it slipped from my hand and fell to the ground. So now I wasn't going to run back to go get it, so I just had 1. But I had a lot of electrolytes. But I think with having the right amount of potassium and sodium, more— which is to me the most important thing to have I ended up running a 2:53, which was my fastest marathon time. And I stayed throughout, like I said, 1:50s. And for most all my runs, thanks to the MAF running, my splits are usually faster in my second half than they are in my first half because I have a lot more energy in the back. So my fastest mile in the marathon at Houston was actually the last mile, which was, I think, a sub-6. And then my fastest split was the last 2 tenths, which was like 5 40-something, so I had a lot more energy. I've learned from that, it's like, okay, so I stay within this heart rate, and as long as I keep my potassium sodium levels adequate, as well as hydration, I was able to have one of my best marathons.

Yeah. Tell me more about the gels that you do take, or the gel that you do take.

The one gel I usually will try to take is called MySpring Energy. I think a lot of people, if they know about it, they especially for ultra marathoners. They have a lot more calories for that kind of races. The main reason why I chose that one over most of the others is a certain ingredient that most of these companies will put on is maltodextrin. Basically what that is, is that's a corn syrup derivative which is— most people, I think it's more because it's cheap and it allows it has a good taste to it and, and allows a longer shelf life than, say, like sugar. However, the problem with that is, is that if you look at the glycemic index score, which is how much your insulin gets spiked and how much everything gets utilized, it's actually a lot higher than sugar is. So if you're actually going to have something that was going to affect your body, sugar would have a less impact on you than maltodextrin. That's when a lot of people, if you take a lot of those goos, people say, "Oh, your stomach hurts," and how you have this— something's kind of turning. It's just not sitting right. If you look at all the goos and all the gels that you take, guess what's the main ingredient? If you always look at the main ingredient, it's going to be that. I've learned from that. It would also spike up. It just kind of give me this weird sugar crash when you get to— see, I take more and more and more. And to me it wasn't feeling healthy. And so I went to MySpring because it doesn't contain that. It's more whole foods puree kind of type of gel, and to me that was more natural. And to me, I would try it out, and to me it felt a whole lot better. Like, it didn't have any effects on my body as, uh, also the other gels would.

That's good. Do you, do you happen to remember how many calories it has? Because I saw some packages were that had 250 or 300 calories in it, if I believe right.

Yeah, because there's actually different kinds. There's some that have as low as 90 and some that don't have any caffeine. And there's another one that has 250 calories like you saw, and that was the one that I had, was the 250-calorie one. But that one I liked because it had like all these kind of nuts and coconut oil and almonds and As long as you don't have a tree nut allergy, it was great. I had 2 of those, but only had one, so I only consumed about 250 calories. Even from that, I learned that I really don't need that much calories per se, as long as, like I said, as long as I had my electrolytes, which I had all those salt tablets with. Now, especially being the summer, the dog days of summer here in San Antonio, I learned even more about cramps as well as energy levels and much everything else with, uh, just mainly just with that. And I think a lot of people, they don't want to hydrate as much in this time and a period. And I think, um, you know, hats off to some people who says they don't need to drink water or anything else. Uh, I would love for some of those people who say that could come over to the South and then see if that See if that holds up. I would really like to see that, but, uh, yeah, those temperatures and humidities are no joke over there. There's no joke. And, um, there's a lot of people who go to the hospital that I've seen, um, that do suffer from heat exhaustion and heat stroke. And it is definitely nothing, uh, nothing to play around with. You definitely want to make sure that you're well hydrated, but also more importantly, make sure you get enough sodium potassium in you, because I think If anything more than anything else, you need to have that in your system.

Yeah. How do you get that in your system?

Well, it was originally by salt tabs. However, so I would do these work commutes where I would run 15 miles to work and I'm just experimenting all the time. I run 15 miles back because— but the fun thing about it was is that I was able to do that. People think, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe you're doing that." Well, it's really not that hard, but it took me years to build it up. I mean, I tell people, let's get this in perspective. I've been doing this for a while. So, but I always start to get cramps because this was starting to get in June, July here in South Texas. And you know, you can have as much pickle juice, you can have as much of salt tabs, whatever, you're still gonna cramp up and I was cramping up. Bad and it was struggling to do 15 miles back. So the one nutrition I found, which was becoming my magic elixir basically, was bone broth. There you go. Yeah. And I know a lot of people are going to think that's crazy, but if you actually look at the bottles, uh, the ones that I have, it's like an almost 10-ounce bottle. It had over around 750 milligrams of potassium and almost 700 milligrams of sodium. And I looked at, if you look at a 32-ounce bottle of just a sugar-free power drink, they have, I think, 70, maybe 100 milligrams of potassium. So just in, that's in a 32-ounce. So just in one little bottle of bone broth, which really is, you're basically drinking chicken noodle soup without chicken or the noodles. So if you're a person who doesn't mind chicken noodle soup, and that's really what, we give to, um, you know, when everyone says they're sick, you know, have chicken noodle soup. But it's mainly because of the electrolytes. It's just loaded with sodium, potassium. And so drink that before, drink it after. And it really, it allowed me to become a much more efficient runner where I can do these 15 miles back and forth. And it didn't matter about the heat because even though I sweat so much, I would have all that in me. And it was a, it was a game changer for me on that sense.

How much of it would you take?

Uh, it would depend on— so if the weather got really bad and if I knew like how the temperature is now here, like it's anywhere between the mid to 70s to the 80s in the morning with 80 to 90% humidity, I would drink one of those in the morning before the run. And that would be my— basically be my breakfast is drinking one of those and maybe some water or some coffee. Yeah. And then on the way back, I would drink it also one before and at the end of the run on the way back, I would drink another one. So basically about 2 to 3 times, but it wouldn't give me any cramps. Sometimes if I didn't have that, I would be cramping up later on in the afternoon or late at night, or I'd get those charley horses where you get cramps in the early morning, late at night, and those are definitely not fun to have.

Yeah, those are rough for sure.

Absolutely.

The part I find interesting, going back to the to the gel topics for a bit. Like, I'm going through my own training cycle again now. I'm only in week 3, starting week 4 here of 18 weeks training for a marathon in December. And this is going to be a lot of experimenting in this one as well, whether it's with intermittent fasting, with the different gels I'm taking in. And so actually, I'm experimenting with the gels that you are talking about. I keep hearing more and more about it. I actually met some of the people who work there. I've been typically taking Googels and I take them quite frequently, but that is partly because my body— like, I think it is partly my mind that I've had a few bonks that were so horrific that in my mind I'm just like, I got to keep shoving sugar in my face because that will help reduce my bonk versus let's actually improve my fat burning significantly through a variety of different strategies and take in some, some different nutrition that works well for that. So I'm even experimenting with Vespa, with Yukon, with a bunch of different things just to kind of see what works well. And I think the long training runs work really well for me for that as well.

Oh yeah. And I think they're really beneficial, but also I like, I was curious about some of those Vespas and some of those ones you were talking about. Um, I looked at some, and a lot of them are really good where they have a lot of whole foods in them. And I think that's the most important part, because I think if you go with something like sugar and all that other stuff, you're basically more or less, you know, you might as well just be eating candy bars in some sense. Yeah, yeah. But, uh, but I think a lot of it though too is if you look at some of these, if you look at their nutritional content about what they contain per packet, and I think that's why if you say like you can have Venspar or MySpring Energy Gel or any of those others, you look at how, it's loaded with all these micronutrients. And I think for those long runs, that's what really benefits the most. And because I think, yeah, because I used to be on those, those sugar gels, and it gives that little bit of spring of energy, but there's really not much else it contains. So that's why you're always kind of going back to it and back to it and back to it. But if you get to these other ones that have like a whole natural food in it even though it's pureed, but still natural. And they are loaded. I mean, some are pretty well loaded with the essential micronutrients. I think that's what is lost in some people is the micronutrients because if you're a person who sweats a lot, you're going to lose a lot of salt. You're going to lose a lot of potassium. And how are you going to get all that back? Most of those ones have maybe 1% or 2% So you're basically having to just chug them the whole entire time to make yourself feel better. Yeah. And, and at the detriment of to your— the rest of your body with all that lower loaded of like sugar maltodextrin. Um, and that's what I've learned the most. And that's why I think like with bone broth and those other things, it helps sustain me for a lot longer time than I can just have my spring energy gel once Cause when I do my long runs, I'll do like 23, 24 miles. And most of the time I'll just have a bone broth. Then I go for a run and have one gel about halfway through. And then most of the time I can just have water and I like, and salt tabs if needed.

Yeah. Sustain me very well.

Yeah.

So tell me a little bit more. What, what is your current training look like? What are you training for at this point? And how does your average training week look like? And how do you integrate heart rate training in that?

Um, so right now, yeah. So right now I'm gearing up for Berlin, uh, September 29th. And then I have a few, I might be doing a few mini races here in October, November, uh, just to mainly just to kind of have, uh, fun, I guess. That will be more experimenting even more so. And then, uh, and then I'll be doing Houston again and then preparing for other races. Uh, I'm very interested in seeing what the Bigfoot 200 will be like next year, so we'll see how that one goes. So you're gonna, you're gonna go for it? I might. Um, we'll see if I can get into— if I get into London next year, uh, we'll see. But if not, um, I'm about 70-80% about just saying, you know what, just go for it kind of deal.

That's gonna be such an experience, man. I can't even imagine running 200 miles like That's a whole nother level again.

Yeah. And I'm just thinking, you know what? Um, if I'm just going to treat that as my Barkley, cause I know a lot of people ask me, no, I'm not even going to remotely even think about that race. That, that's a, that's a documentary and I'll just watch it. I am not going to do that one. That one's crazy. But, uh, but for my, uh, for my training-wise right now, um, prior I got a, uh, a little bit of a hamstring issue earlier, about a week, a little over a week ago, so that was a little bit different. For most of my training has been a little over 100 miles a week, but very sparingly was I doing any speed work. Most of it is just, uh, doing actually below math. So I think your, yours and mine math is almost about the same. It's just shy of 150 if you add the 5 for your endurance run. However, I've always experimented with that, but I'd still have like a little bit of soreness and sometimes, uh, it would be hard to do 10 miles consecutively, 15 miles consecutively. So what I've learned, I think most people even, uh, on this podcast and even on the, with your marathon PR program, which is really good, people should try that out and take a look. Don't blow it. But with all the runners that we've even seen, uh, we go below, um, below that. So mainly I didn't stay into the 130s. And so I would get about 100, over 100 miles a week of just doing 10 to 15 to 20, um, periodically through the day, whatever I can for my— for work-wise. And then one long run on the weekends and then a recovery run on Sunday. And to me, that's been more, far more beneficial to be averaging 130s. So even though I would do a 30— I would do a work commute run usually on Mondays and Fridays, which was 30 miles total, if I would stay, but if I knew if I stayed below 140 throughout the whole entire time, I could go the next day with zero problems, zero, with very, very little soreness, maybe just a little bit in my calves, but that's about it. So to me, the most important part of my MAP training was to have the chest rate, uh, heart rate monitor and stay within that parameters. And it was allowing me to keep going the next day.

And so you, you really came to that decision of going X amount below MAP based on how your recovery feels, how you're able to run the And, uh, and I thought, yeah, I thought that was the most important part to me.

I value like you, and I think a lot of people, we value consistency over intensity. If you want to get too intense, it's kind of more geared toward, I would believe more toward the race that you want to do. Like, like I said, 6 to 8 weeks out, because you do want to get your lactate. You do want to kind of get used to the stress part. However, I don't see any benefit in trying to go full for trying to go hard all the time, or even when you're not really in training sessions. I just feel like that's way too much stress on your body, and I feel like it kind of takes away the enjoyment of it. And I'm able to do all these runs, and like I said, I just love doing it. And even if there was no race, I'd still be doing what I do just because you're outside, you're, you're feeling good the whole entire time. It's a, it's more of a euphoric kind of feeling. I think that's I think that's lost in a lot of people is that they think about the training, they go too hard. They just, yeah. I mean, they're just, but they don't, most people like me, even like myself when I was doing it, I didn't know any better. I didn't know how to really properly train. And then when I learned like from your program as well as from Phil Maffetone, uh, it kind of made more sense and it just made it to be where, yeah, I love running and it didn't matter about the race. So, um, I think that's the most part about the training is if you love it and you can able to keep going. That's the most important part. When you get to the point where you're not liking it, you're just feeling groggy, okay, you probably need to reevaluate what you're doing. And do it a little bit differently.

Yeah, I think it's interesting to hear you say, so 6 to 8 weeks out before a race, you'll start implementing some speed work. I think there's a few different approaches there too, right? Like some people have like, alright, you take a base building period and then you start experimenting with, all right, add 1 to 2 times speed work for a few weeks, see how you feel and adjust your training accordingly. When I had Mark Allen on the podcast, he often talks about as well the base building period and then indeed like adding 1 or 2 sessions a week in there. I think once again, like if I look at your training from an outside, I see you're actually able to put in those 100 miles consistent. And that alone, the amount of aerobic development you're able to do over there, if you're now going to be adding 1 or 2 speed work sessions even earlier on in the training cycles, yeah, your chance of injury, especially with you having experienced a few injuries in the past, you always have to be extra careful for that.

Oh yeah, but I also think you make yourself more attuned to what your body is. So if you feel like a tweak, you feel like this, It's like, you, okay, you know what it is before and you know how to, how to deal with it and you know how to say, okay, this needs to stop. I need to stop and rest. Um, you take your ego and once you learn about the injuries and you've learned about this stuff, your ego is now thrown out the window because you're not trying to say, oh, I can overpower it. It's like, you know, you've had that before and you know, this can be very detrimental to you. So just stop, live another day. You can go maybe another, because you're not going to lose, like I've When I said I was out for 6 to 8 weeks and I ran a faster or just as fast marathon. So I then knew it's like, it's okay to miss a day or two. You're not going to lose all your aerobic fitness in a day or two or a week. I know a lot of people think, oh my gosh, I'm going to miss 2 or 3 days. Like, no, you're not going to go from a 2:40— if you're a 2:40, 2:50 marathoner, you're not going to go to a 4-hour one if you miss 3 or 4 days. It's not how the body works. So Oh no, sorry. Oh, go ahead.

No, no, go ahead. No, like, so I found it fascinating because last week you and I were talking and you experienced some tightness in your hamstrings and you adjusted your training. Can you talk about that a little bit more?

Because I think that's so important. Oh, absolutely. Uh, so it was on my— so now I'm starting to put the speed work. So one of the things I wanted to do was do a high fast tempo run. However, wanting to experiment just a little bit, I decided doing the hot afternoon. I think it was like 98, 99 with about 40, 50% humidity.

Why not?

That's the best time to do a speed workout, isn't it? So I did a warm-up and I felt just a shade bit of tightness. I was like, okay, let me loosen up a little bit because most time, even like you, for warm-ups I really don't try to stretch or do any like static exercises. I don't think that's helped me at all. I think a good warm-up is a good, you know, proper like trot, jog, get your body get the blood flowing. And then for me, I'll do some dynamic kind of ones where just kind of moving around, like a little bit of like jump, like invisible jump roping, things of that nature, trying to get your body, uh, get the blood flow working. And I felt okay after all that. So then I ran. So about half, about a half mile into it, I felt the tightness in my left hamstring. So I had to shut it down right then and there and thought, okay, so let me rest a couple days. There's no need to push it. And so really it wasn't so much of a pull. I think it was just more of a back cramp. So I had to go back to just my low aerobic base running. And then I was able to just say, you know, give it a week or two and then try to go back. So yesterday was my other tempo run where I had to just do the treadmill and just take away all the heat and everything out of it. And I ran just a normal 5K, and I was able to run pretty well. I think, uh, it's on a treadmill with 1.1% incline, so I think I went at like a 5:45 pace, and it was fine after that. And this was after a 5-minute mile pace. Yeah, 5, uh, 5:45 per, uh, per mile, uh, pace. And that was actually— and this is that— and so I decided to go ahead and do some water water, aqua plyometrics was I usually do sometimes for my workouts. And then I decided to do like a little bit of weight training a little bit before I did that, just to kind of get the blood flow. And I was able to do fine with that.

And then 35 minutes of the sun afterwards, and I was good to go after that.

Nice.

Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, that's, uh, that's an important one to adjust accordingly over there.

Yeah. And it's very important. But, uh, so I'm kind of still tinkering with a little bit of experimenting, like I said. Uh, and to even go when we were talking about before, for nutrition-wise, I think I've done almost every single part of the experimenting fad that there has been. I think we talked before where I even did for 4 weeks I did the carnivore. Like, I've done all types of diets. So if you, if you heard about it, I've tried it just to experiment with it. Carnivore, uh, keto, uh vegan, vegetarian, like everything else. So I had to try them all out. Why not? And, uh, but it was also important because I could see what part of a diet works for me and what part doesn't. And I think that's what a lot of people, uh, have a problem with is figuring out the right diet for themselves. And I, I told somebody, it's like, well, one diet's not going to fit all, but you need to find one that's holistic but also, um, good for your body. Like, not everyone is supposed to have a set car. Some people need to have an SUV because they have a big family. Some people need a small economic car for what they are or for where they're living. And some people need a truck. Some people live out in the country and they need it. So everyone's different. However, if you look at what does everyone want from their car, they want it to be durable, fuel efficient, and also safety. So there's all these basic things. So every diet to me, I think, is sort of like that. Just make sure it needs to be suitable for you, but also that helps you become more efficient, but also healthy for you in the long run. And yeah, carnivore diet's not for me.

So that was only eating meat for a period of 30 days?

Yeah, meat, I guess meat and eggs and all this other kind of stuff. Yeah, there was some benefit. I could see why some people like it because It works more as a— to me, as a— not a cleansing, but as a restart kind of thing. Where if you eat a lot of junk food, which I haven't done in a while, there's just no way I can do any kind of that junk food stuff. I think that's the other reason why I know I can run the next day, because if I know if I have a pizza or slice or two or something like that, yeah, I'm not— I can't— it's almost hard for me to go the next day just because the inflammation.

It changes your gut, right? I feel super bloated these days after, like, I don't eat it. At all anymore, then you eat it and yeah, your gut reacts differently.

Oh yeah. It reacts to what your— to what's according, uh, works best for you. Um, and we talked about this before where I know a lot of people like to do keto and it makes them feel good. And I think that's, that's great for them. However, it's not going to work for everybody else. I mean, we talked about Zach Bitter, who, you know, is unbelievable as a runner and he does the fat burning and, and that works well for him, but I've tried doing keto and it works a little bit for me, but not as a marathon running-wise. It doesn't make me quite as efficient. And there's a lot of people who I know who are vegans who do fabulous, who run really well in that. I know there's some people who have a lot of carbs in their diet that can kind of help them. So it's all about finding the right balance. And I think if you get the right carbs, the right fat, the right protein in your body, I think that is the most important part because you can get carbs from vegetables, fruits, and things of that nature. Far better for you than, say, pizza or something like that. There's a big difference between those kind of carbs.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One part that I found very interesting recently, like earlier you were talking about the loss in fitness when you do take a few days off or when you do, or actually not much of a loss of fitness. And I've mentioned a few times already the Elevate for Strava app where this developer Thomas developed a Chrome plugin and you can actually see your different levels of your stress level, how it gets impacted, your actual, so your fatigue level, your fitness level, how it improves over time, and then your actual running form. And I've, I've found it fascinating to see sometimes after 4 or 5 days of nonstop running or like every day, if I then see my fatigue levels up quite a bit and you do take 1 or 2 rest days to see how quickly the fatigue level drops and the fitness level only drops very small. I'm actually interviewing the developer of the app in a few weeks on the podcast here. Oh really? His name is Thomas from France. Because I do find there's a lot of data available in that app, and I think a lot of people can benefit from this, yet quite a few people we see it the first time get quite overwhelmed by the data.

Oh yeah. I mean, that would just be mind-blowing to me to look at that. And I've seen some of your, uh, some of your parts on Strava where it shows that. And when I first look at that, I'm thinking, yeah, there's no way I'm going to be able to figure this out. That looks crazy. But But when you're talking about it, that would make the most sense in the world because I think a lot of people, when they feel like if they're going to miss a day or two, they feel like they're going to be out and they're just going to suffer. And I think that's the wrong mindset. Um, there, I know that there's a lot of people out there who can, who I guess sort of like me, but far better than me, obviously, that they can go every day, that they can do all those and not really miss much. But I mean, there's gonna be times where you're gonna have these kind of setbacks. And I know a few people that have a few setbacks and just to let them know, it's not going to be the end of the world. You're not going to go from start at day one, like you're saying, like it's a very minuscule amount you'll lose. You still have your aerobic base. As long as you got your base built up, I mean, you're not going to suffer as much, but it's also good to look at how much can I go without putting too much stress on myself. And I think that's the most important part. Like you were just mentioning. Um, Can you go 10 miles without, without much stress, or does it need to be at 6 and then slowly work your way up? Yeah. I think a lot of people think, well, I can, you know, I see this person do it, I could do it. It's like, no, you, you, you, not everyone's gonna be the same and it's okay. Um, like I said, uh, I mean, I feel great that I can do 15 miles and then I see like, you know, some of these other people that are doing like 30, 40, I'm like, wow.

But then I'm like, They're on a whole other level and I'm fine with that. Well, and that's once again, once you start comparing yourself to other people or even how you used to perform previously when you were in a different stage of a training cycle, right?

Yeah. And that's the— but I think that's the most important part, like with data, is that you can look at, see where you were from a year ago to now. But also, I think that's also true, like with weather that we're experiencing, is that you got to look at the weather in relation to your stress level. I think, uh, with one of the people that we had on, uh, that you had on before, uh, Bill Callahan, um, he had on Strava and he had that climate part that was out there that talked, that, that showed that. And I thought that was actually very useful because, uh, you can then see, okay, if the weather's like this, I know my body's going to react to it this way. And so then I now know I should not, or I should not go hard at all. This is going to be detrimental. And, or if the weather's just nice, the humidity is low. Temperature's low and I'm used, and I know that I can run fast. Like this would be a good time to, if I want to do a speed workout, this would actually be a good time to do it.

Or if I want to go longer, this would be the right time to do it. Absolutely. So for those listening, there's a small plugin called Climate. Uh, it's a climate app plugin for Strava. And basically it auto-features your weather data and it goes straight into your description of your, every Strava workout. Yeah, it's really nice to compare apples to apples that way and see, see how your body reacts different weather temperature-wise.

Oh yeah. And I think that's been extremely helpful in that. And, and I've now had to realize when I was saying before, I'm on a recovery run for 11 miles and I was about to die because it was like 80-something degrees with 90-something percentage humidity. I'm like, all right, I got my breaking point here with this. So I thought, okay, maybe I'll, I'll stick with the, the treadmill, uh, for the mornings, but then the afternoons, even though it's hotter, like 90-something degrees, humidity is like 30-something. So I'll probably keep my longer runs in the evenings and stick with the morning runs. It will probably just have to be more water plyometrics.

Yeah, absolutely. Tell me a little bit more about that part, the water plyometrics.

So, uh, Yeah. So I know a lot of people, they normally will run and some people like to do weight training. So everyone has like their own, uh, forms of aerobic endurance, aerobic training. And one of the things I found was, was to learn how to build up speed and learn up, uh, stride length. And that was, and I was very curious about that, but, um, and so I would learn different forms of methods. So one was like the deadlifts and the squats and things of that nature. However, doing a deadlift. 4 weeks prior to Boston, uh, strained my back really bad, very bad, where the point where it took me, I think like 15 minutes just to get dressed, just to go to work. And so that was fun 4 weeks prior to Boston.

Yeah. Confidence, boot count, confidence booster for sure. Yeah.

So why not just get— something's always got to happen for me in a race. So I knew that wasn't really working for me. So I started to look up ways to build up fitness without hurting or basically improving my longevity, um, say with knees and cartilage and things of that nature. So I came across, uh, uh, Laird Hamilton and he was talking about water plyometrics and how he would do these jumps and do all these other kind of drills in the, in the water. And he would mention like you can go for a lot longer period of time. And it's going to be less on your body because there's no gravity. So you're actually getting all the benefits from doing these kind of training methods without any of the drawbacks like with hurting your knees. So, yeah, I started it where you're in a pool and basically you can go as low as your chest size where the water is and you start to just do all these weird kind of jumps. And you're either doing high knees or you're doing some butt kicks and you're doing some lateral kind of jumps. And then sometimes you'll get fully submerged where you're like 10 feet under and you have like these little weights, you jump up as hard as you can because you need to breathe.

Yeah.

Fair enough. Yeah. And, um, and you just do it for like 15, 20 minutes a day. And it's a really great benefit. You have all this energy still left. You don't have any soreness and you still get the benefits of, uh, of basically strength training without any stress on the body. And just doing the 15, like I said, 15-20 minutes a day, and I do it like 2 to 4 days a week maybe, um, just depends how much time I have. And it's been hugely beneficial for me is to do something like that, something that's less stressful on the body, because you're already running, you're already putting enough stress on it as enough as it is. And so I wanted to do something where I can get all the benefits without, you know, with, with having as much longevity and as much as I can. To me, it's helped out tremendously. Good.

For anyone listening who wants to learn more about it, do you have any resources, any place where you found more info?

For me, it was more from Laird Hamilton's parts on some— some parts on YouTube, but then also it's just kind of been more of— it may be through a personal trainer in that sense that I've been talking with, and I mean, you can go on certain websites. I'm pretty sure there'll be something to find. It's hard to really get like a good set. And so what I'm mainly doing is just doing like 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off of doing 3 to 4 sets of either lateral jumps and high knees. And mainly for anybody, if they can, I mean, it's so hard to find because it's, it's kind of more new to the, to the world of fitness. So for that, I can't really be descriptive on them.

Yeah, no, no, fair enough. I'm sure like even if you punch in Laird Hamilton, oh yeah, you'll be able to find a few options on YouTube.

Oh yeah, and then you'll find his surfing on there too, I'm pretty sure.

He's gnarly.

And then some.

Let's talk a bit more about your profession because you work in the medical field and you see firsthand a lot of different scenarios coming through. How has this impacted— first of all, what do you do exactly for work, and how has this impacted your viewpoint on, on health, on nutrition, on exercise, on all of these different things?

Oh, it's impacted quite a bit. So I've been an emergency room nurse for, for a long period of time, for a number of years. And like I said, I used to work in the night shift and day shift, so I work between children and adults. So you see all types of different types of emergencies. And now I kind of gear more toward like a coordinator area where I kind of look at stroke and also look at sepsis, which is basically an overload of bacterial infection. The one thing I have learned, especially as a nutritionist, what, what comes in when I was in the emergency room is what comes in all the time. People having so many disabilities, so many different injuries. And also you look at their nutrition because one of the things you ask them is if, you know, do they smoke, drink, you know, all those kinds of things. And what I've learned is that, and it's, it's, it's important to know is like I never met an obese 70-plus-year-old really, because no one ever lives that long. And you look at people's nutrition and most of the time there's They're either having a hard time breathing, they're requiring oxygen, some who are diabetic, they lose their feet, they lose a lot of part of their appendages. It's because they don't properly, and I'm not gonna blame any of them, it's hard to really know what anyone's life story is. And when you see it every day, you think to yourself, okay, this could easily be anyone else if they don't really watch themselves properly. And I think that's one of the things I've learned mostly about nutrition, because a lot of people, um, and through no fault of their own, some people are really stressful and some people could take the in-and-out burger, like, you know, the fast foods and all those. And I'm, I'm just as susceptible to that as anybody else. But I think the thing when I look at now is that nutrition is probably going to be the most important aspect of anyone's life. And that allowed me to do all these kinds of experiments when I was doing it myself. It's like, what diet works for me? Not only for marathon and running-wise, but also what, um, for overall health. And when you see people who, you know, like I said, no fault to them. Um, but you do see like, okay, if you don't watch what you're eating, you don't watch what you're doing, you're setting yourself up for a lot— long time of a lot of problems later in life. And some will sneak up on you because a lot of it is also a family history. Um, I know that there's a history of cancer in my family and everything else. I always try to get periodically checked, but I also look for ways to keep everything as healthy as possible. And I think that's the most important thing is that people try to I'm not saying no one should ever have a cookie or ever have some ice cream, but I don't think that should be your 3 main course, so to speak. That's one of the things I've learned though, and that's helped me out because now I'm probably— gosh, I mean like 8 to 12 servings of vegetables a day. I'm a vegetable fiend in that sense.

How do you get that much vegetables in?

Oh, you find ways. Um, it's, I mean, it's basically between two, because usually I only eat like two meals a day, sometimes only once, because the, the bone broth, what I found, I mean, it, it's satiating. Like, you don't feel— and I don't want to force-feed myself, but you drink one of those, you're like, yeah, I'm not hungry at all. I have enough. It does have protein in it, so protein is very satiating, but also has all the potassium as well as sodium. But for vegetable-wise, uh, I just have to make sure I get a big bowl. Like, I could take a whole big bowl of spinach and kale, and that's the most things I'll look at is look at the potassium levels. So I get like a big old bag, like 3 or 4 servings of that, and then I get a whole bunch of 3 or 4 servings of broccoli and just mix it into a bowl. And then already that's 8 servings right there. And I'll also put celery if I need to, or some grape tomatoes, and then I'll add a little bit of eggs or something to it, and then That's a big meal right there.

Yeah, it surely is. For me, the Vitamix has been a lifesaver. Oh yeah. That thing is amazing. The blenders, and the whole family enjoys it as well. Oh yeah. Just throw in as much vegetables with some of the fruits in there and got yourself a good drink in the morning or in the afternoon or whenever.

Oh yeah, great, and it's a great post-race drink too because sometimes you're on the go, And plus it helps with digestion, so you can drink that. A lot of times I'll have like a little, make a little protein drink where I'll have like an unsweetened almond cashew milk or anything like that nature. I'll add some, some stevia to it, then some almond, almond butter, some blueberries and stuff like that. And to me, that's just a, it's a great recovery kind of drink. And yeah, it to me makes you feel a whole lot better the rest of the day.

Without feeling groggy. Yeah, yeah. Let's talk a little bit more about your actual running, your training, and leading up to the next race over here. So what's your age at this point? My what, I'm sorry?

Your age. Oh, I'm 37. So I'll be 38 in December. So just by the math formula, I think it'd be 143, but with the 5 pluses and minuses, it'd be 148. So it'd be close to 150. But I still want to keep it below 140. So throughout my whole entire training, uh, for about, if I went about 16 weeks out, I was always trying to build up to about 100 miles a week, give or take a few miles. And so when it gets to about the 6 weeks, this is where it starts to get a little bit more intense, where that's where I'll start to incorporate speed. So really it'd be about 5 days of, uh, easy math running. Like I said, try to go below them or actually below the math where I'll say in the 130s. So that'd be anywhere between 10 to 15 miles. 5 to 6 miles per day. Then on Saturdays, it'll be more of a speed workout where I'll do anywhere between 6 to 8 miles of a tempo run or 5 to 6 1 by, uh, 6, uh, 1 by 1 mile runs or something of that nature. But usually I try to have at least 4 minutes rest. I think if you're going to do these kinds of runs, you need to have a proper rest time. Otherwise you're going to overload and risk a lot of injury. So you do need to have some type of, uh, Recovery period. Then on Sundays will usually be the recovery run after that, after a speed workout, which would be about 11 miles. And then sometimes on— because if I'm doing these work commutes, I can get a long run in, about 30 miles during that time period. So it's about one decent long run, about 20 miles or more, one speed workout, and then one recovery run from that time period. And this will lead up to about, for Berlin, which is September 29th. So about almost about 3 weeks out, we'll increase the intensity a little bit more during that time, which is, um, more up-tempo, that slash down-tempo where I'll go 6 miles per hour or 10-minute mile pace. So at 1 mile, that's a tongue twister, and then slowly build it up. So then this, then I will do 2 miles, uh, a little bit faster. We're basically saying we're on 1 mile, go 1:30. 2 miles at 140, 3 miles at 150, and then 1 mile at 160, and then go back the opposite direction. Because I feel like slowly kind of building up my speed work and then slowly bringing it back down. That way it's not too hard on my body, but also getting used to the stressors slowly, each bit at a time.

So even the speed work is heart rate focused in that sense?

Oh yes, absolutely. I don't want to go really— if I do these kind of runs, I don't want to go above 170 if I can help it. Um, if I do, then I want to make sure that I have proper hydration or proper nutrition or something that's maybe causing this. If it does, then I really want to, you know, pedal it back a little bit.

I really like, let's say in the 160s. And that's purely so that you can run the next day again and not—

yeah. And that's usually where I want to keep my— and I think if you have like a goal when you do your marathons, like especially for heart rate training, I want to stay at this heart rate.— or want to average this kind of heart rate. And so that's why I want to keep that no more in the 160s, because if I keep in the 160s, then my body's used to that marathon run. Yeah, yep.

But also— oh, go ahead. That's quite a tremendous amount of running you're doing. What is your actual— which is awesome, much respect to you for being able to pull it off.

What is your actual race goal for Berlin? Um, I want to break 2 hours. No, I don't. That Ilya Kipchoge, I thought he was going to run that race and he's not. Oh well. Uh, no, my— so my goal, hopefully, if everything goes to, to the weather part, like everything's dictated upon weather and nutrition. So if everything was right, I would like to go possibly sub 2:40, at least 2:45, because like I said, um, when I was at 1:50s through for Houston, I was able to run 2:53, and that's not even trying to get near 1:60. And then Boston, I ran 2:54, and that's after a month of basically of trying to get my back well. Yeah, and, and it was still reasonable, um, center of fact of the hills that Boston has, which is— everyone talks about Heartbreak Hill. No, there's 3 other hills right before that, and Heartbreak Hill, that's just the cherry on top. People need to realize that those hills are no They're no joke. Yeah, but, uh, but with Berlin, from what I'm told, especially with some of the people who have run it, they say it's mostly relatively flat, pretty cool. So if those are act— if those hold true, then yeah, 2:40, I think sub-2:45 as well within means, and sub-2:40 possibly, um, just as long as, like I said, there's no other factors that can that can, I guess, hamper the race.

Yeah, yeah. What are some of your recovery tools, like when you have tight muscles or when you, like you just talked about doing some of the exercises in the water, do you do any other specific recovery workouts?

Yes, so those will depend on what happens. So if I know that, if I did a lot of hard impact or if I know that it's going to be pretty sore the next day just because of effort-wise. One of the things I'll definitely need to take is Epsom salt baths. And so I'll be in the bathtub for about 20 minutes. Usually I put like— a lot of people see the recommended dose sometimes on the packaging, it'll say like 1 cup. No, I'm putting like 3 or 4 cups in. I'd rather make sure I get all that magnesium in me. And so, and that's helped out quite a bit. So But like I said, that's any person, if they can do it with one cup or whatever they want, that's fine. Yeah. I'm putting a lot more in there, but, but it's helped out quite a bit.

And then, uh, these are hot baths, no cold baths, right? Yeah.

Oh yeah. And then, um, if there's anything around, definitely a hot sauna. Um, I feel like that's helped out quite a bit as well. Uh, I feel like it's more of a relaxation, so I don't feel like you're too tense and it brings your stress level down. I know a lot of people think that it would be kind of weird though, that a hot sauna would bring your stress down. But actually, you do feel relaxed. And I think with the cold, the ice bath in the morning, and I think those help out tremendously because it allows you to focus a lot more, focus better, but also it feels like there's a lot of weight that comes off when you have that.

And I think the combination indeed of hot exposure and cold exposure definitely activates a lot of different mechanisms in your body. Releases of different hormones. And I just feel incredibly good, whether, whether it's after sauna, I can sleep really well, or even after a cold shower or an ice bath.

Like, oh yeah, it's just, I mean, to me, yeah, it just feels like there's a lot of stress that comes off it. It really feels like a cloud was just being lifted and you feel a whole lot better and just feel more relaxed. But at times too, I'll do like a few, uh, stretches, uh, at night. I really don't just to make sure that I'm still kind of loose. And then other times they'll do a bone broth for me as well. I think one of the things is when a lot of people work out, the last thing they think about is making sure that they're— they think hydration, which is very important, but I think most people make sure that you do have all your micronutrients because you lose a lot of it if you're going to be working out quite a bit, especially with sauna too because you're sweating so much. Yeah. So if you make sure you keep all, uh, specific type of ingredients that will help you feel better the next day. I think that's very important. I'll have that. So yeah, bone broth and a little bit of stretching just to make sure everything's loose, but also like a calm meditation like you kind of do. I think that helps out quite a bit because it kind of takes away the stress. I think if you can limit that stress, you can feel good the next day as as well. How much do you sleep per night? Most of the time, if I can, I try to get— it ranges, usually averaging about 7 hours, give or take. Other times, if you drink quite a bit of hydration, you wake up and you have to go to the bathroom. I would say on average, it's about 7 hours.

Does 7 hours feel enough for you, even with that high volume?

Yeah, it actually feels pretty well because I think as long as, like I said, if you— it's not so much of 7 hours, but how quickly can you get into your REM sleep? Because I know a lot of people, they can toss and turn, but I don't think if you relax enough, you don't get that proper hydrate— or you don't get that proper REM sleep. And I think as soon as I get on there, boom, I'm ready.

Yeah, you're able to go to bed quickly and you're able to wake up feeling refreshed. Yep, exactly. So good. Let's see, is there like— obviously you have come across quite a few people around you who are starting out with low heart rate training or getting into running. What are a few of the different things that you have seen throughout that? Like, is there anything that— any recommendations?

Is there anything that that you feel can help guide some of these people along the way? Oh yeah. Uh, in fact, uh, we're, um, training with someone who's, uh, getting ready to, uh, wanting to do a Boston qualifier. And I think she's going to be running SIM. And I think that's what you're going to be running too, uh, in December. So yeah. So the main thing we've been training for with her and also with another, uh, uh, girl. So I'm training two of them and The, I think the most proper thing is what I've been noticing is, is with the heart rate training is to get past. I think that's what a lot of people though, too, is, is to get past this idea of you're not getting any progress. I think that's been this, this huge barrier because you're not running as fast as you want to, or you don't think you're running as fast as you want to. And I think, uh, so with them, I had to bring it on kind of slowly, 40. 40 miles a week and then for a month, and then kind of slowly bring it up to 45 to 50. And so that'd be like monthly. And that's just more of just going straight, strictly aerobic, no speed work, nothing else. And just going with that. And I think what I've learned though from them is, but also too, is how much they, they enjoy the running though too. And I think that, cause they're always texting me and calling me and say, hey, you want to do, let's run this route and everything else. I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, they're almost running me ragged. I'm like, oh my goodness gracious. But, but they love it, and that's the best part. And I think that's like I said, we were talking about before, it's something you really got to love and something that you got to be sustainable with. And I kind of tell them, um, with anybody else for training-wise, like, if I were to clone you, so I have two of you, and let's say— and I didn't say like your math run is 150 and I'm gonna force you to run 10 miles, and one of you is gonna run— and I say you're gonna run 25 beats over your math, and so that's 175. So you're going to be going at it pretty hard, that 10 miles, and you're just going to kill yourself. You might be able to get to do that 3, maybe 4 times a week, maybe that. And I said your clone is going to run 25 beats less, so 125. Your clone's gonna be able to go every single day because there's not much stress and they're gonna have a far more aerobic base than you. So at the end of the week, the person who's running 175 is only gonna run 30, maybe 40 miles, maybe, so maybe 4 times a week at doing 10 miles. Maybe the other one's going to run 25 beats less, is going to run the whole every day. So 70 miles. So already one person's running 70, one person running 40. We did this for a year. Who's going to be more, far more efficient to run the marathon? It's the person who runs it lower. And, and I think that part finally got into them with the training-wise. And so they're able to see their gains slowly progressing over time. And I told them like, you didn't have to do hardly all that much, did you? And they're like, oh, yeah. So that's, that's been pretty much pretty interesting to see when, when I'm around people. And I think that kind of blows their minds that they think that they have to go hard. I'm like, No. And a lot of people think, why, why are you running so slow sometimes? I'm like, well, cause I'm running, getting ready to run the next day. And I know some of y'all are, you know, I can run another 10 miles the next day or another 15. I'm not gearing toward running a race right now.

I'm looking forward to running 2 the next day. Yeah. And well, here's something else. You're, you're talking about running 10 miles, running 15 miles. Like I'm getting back in a training cycle. And it's very humbling again. I used to like, like you, I was running 10, 12 hours a week and then life got in like priorities. I was finishing the marathon course and was working and hanging out with the kids. And so realistically, the last few months I've been running maybe 25 miles a week, maybe 20 miles a week. So like only running a few hours. And for me, it was very humbling to even I would run 3 or 4 weeks ago, like 45 minutes. And at the end, even at math, I was like, oh yeah, I had a really good workout. I started feeling tired at the end. Now I'm like 3 weeks further and I'm already built up to 90 minutes again. And now that is my, my next base again. And that feels comfortable. So how quickly some of these things can build up again and start become comfortable. Like once you have some kind of base there, it is much easier to get back into it again too.

Yeah, and I think that's the most important thing is that, but also like when you're doing what you're running, I know a lot of people think, well, I'm only, you know, I'm only going like these 3 miles when I kind of get back into it. But you already have, you yourself, you've already had that base, you've already had your blueprint. Like I always tell like the people that I'm running with, I've already put my pennies and nickels in the bank account, so to speak. That's already been built up in that nice little safety deposit. So when you're starting to come back, your body is now starting to, you know, kind of get re-back into the system. So, you know, you've ran that 100 miles, you've run— like, remember that one video you had where you're just running just on just a regular run and you're, I'm gonna run a sub-3 hour marathon on my own. I'm like, oh, that's nice. I wish I could do that. Just, hey, I was gonna run sub-3. That's cool. Yeah. But you've had that, and so, and it's always about quality over anything else. And like you're saying, you're able to get back into it because you're doing a quality kind of run each and every time. And for anyone else, I mean, you— it becomes the surprise to them. But for someone like you and, uh, myself and maybe others who've had that built up with that math running, yeah, it takes time, but we now know— but we know that it's going to get there. It's not something you just lose overnight if you're going away for a period of time. Yeah.

And I think even if you have never— if you haven't built that up yet, even just going out for 20 or 30 minutes, but doing it consistently 4 or 5 times a week and then gradually building it up. And yeah, at the beginning you might be walking like half the time and your walks will become shorter and your jogs will become longer. You You build it up to 35 minutes and 40, and look how much you can accomplish by just doing that like 4 or 5 times a week.

It's incredible. Oh yeah. It's not— but I mean, that's incredible because you think about it and you're like, man, it's just— and then when you go back, you're like, man, I can't believe I was walking and I was doing that other stuff, and I was like, man, that—

That was only 2 months ago.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think a lot of people that— and when they kind of go into it, they they should see a more perspective. I think like when we— when I'm looking at our Facebook page with all the people that are in the Marathon PR program, is that we see all these posts, which is actually extraordinary to see, like all these people who are like, man, I, I don't even know if I can do this. It's— but then they do it and they're like, oh, I can go the next day. And, and I think once they see it over a period of time, you're like, you look back on, you're like, man, I can't believe that I was only running for 20 minutes and then that was like a month or two ago. Now I'm running like 3 hours, 4 hours a week, and then, you know, as time progresses, you're like, man, I can't believe I was only running 3 hours. I'm running like 6 to 8 hours. And I think that's what's, that's what's mind-blowing. That's why I'm just loving this kind of program that you set up. It's, it's just so cool to see all this feedback from all these people. And you're thinking, yeah, I was there.

I was, I was that person. Yeah, no, exactly. It's, uh, it's fun how that goes for sure. I just want to be respectful of your time over here. Is there any, any other recommendations that you have to people? Like, obviously you have qualified for Boston, you have run a sub-3-hour marathon, but you have also been there running a 4:11, 4:19 marathon. Any other recommendations to people looking to improve their overall running and performance?

Yeah, I think the most important thing is, is that Uh, you gotta love it. Um, I think if there's anything to take from, from anything, from either this podcast or all your other great podcasts— I mean, like, yeah, uh, Callahan and Josh and all those others— I mean, I think the most important thing you always look at is people love it. Um, you look at Mark Allen, you look at Maffetone, they love running, they love doing what they do. And I think that's— if I was to recommend anybody to anything is is don't try to beat yourself up over it and don't get lost in the forest of, you know, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. Do it. If you can only run 2 miles and that makes you feel good, stick with that. And then eventually, if you're patient enough, it will get better. 2 miles becomes, like you were saying, 2 miles becomes 3 miles, 3 becomes 4. And life will get in the way, of course. Gets in the way of everybody. And the thing about it is, is not to let it get to you. And I think that would be the most important thing. And I think what helped me from the 4-hour to a sub-3, and then, you know, going beyond that because of wanting to do more, is because it then becomes an addiction—

in a good way.

I don't want to say in a bad way, but you want to challenge— it becomes something you want to challenge yourself with because now you have that love, you have that training. And then you want to, you know, you want to pull that thread just a little bit more. Like, what else? What can I do? And that's the thing I'm thinking about, wanting to do the Bigfoot 200 because I want to keep pulling on that string a little bit because you want to see how far can your body go. And I think that's, if there's any one recommendation I want to say to somebody is to, is to have that. Once you have that and you get your patience in, because it is a process, it's not going to happen overnight. It's taken me a lot of failures. I think I kind of showed that before. I mean, I've had so many injuries with, but not with them with the Maffran. It was all because of, you know, all fun stuff happens. But as long as you can learn from everything, learn from your failures, 'cause there really is no such thing as failure to me unless if you didn't learn anything from it. And I learned a lot from it. And, but I still had that love. And I think by having that, I was able to keep going. And I think that's the most important part, is the love, but also being patient with it. I mean, it's like being in a relationship, basically. You have to love being with who you're with, but you also got to be patient with who you're with. It's the same thing with running. At least that's what— from what I've gone through. So I would say that's pretty much about the big things I would like. And then also, um, I think the other most important part though too is, is, uh, not only that, but I think a lot of people kind of lose it is to have great form too. I don't think most people learn how to run properly. I think that's another thing though too. If, if there's ever a place, there's always stores around that have running stores. They always talk about having proper running form, proper gait and everything else. I think that'd be valuable to some people who are just going into running. They may not know how to, uh, to have a proper foot strike. Cause like I learned the hard way of, uh, learning how to run the proper form. And I think like barefoot running helps, but I wouldn't recommend that to go long distance. Um, if anyone's ever run barefoot running, they know you don't want to go for a long distance at the very beginning. You keep that thing short.

Yeah.

It will, it will test your calves and everything else about your body.

Yeah, you definitely want to slow into that for sure. When I first got into longer distance running, what helped me quite a bit was the whole chi running movement. There's some great YouTube videos about that. Mark Allen speaks quite a bit about running form as well with his True Running treadmill and several good videos and drills out there as well that he has done.

Yeah, I think those have been really great. I think that's another thing that most people, uh, not really think about. They think about shoes, they'll think about everything else. But I think, I think that if you learn your form properly and that will also help avoid injury, but also, um, like I said, uh, if you can keep your heart rate. And I think you and I and everyone else on this podcast, even though they talk about, you know, your set math heart rate would be like, say 150, it's always kind of good to, if you're going to go on easier runs and you want to go for a longer period of time is to, you know, it's good to scale back even more so, like 10 beats or more, because that is helping me to go for a lot longer period of time, but also able to go the next day as well as the day after that.

So here's one question though that does come up, and I just want to bring it up and I want to hear your input. So let's say you're a 55-year-old runner and you're going to be running at 125 heart rate. And at that point, like, some people are looking at running form and they want to use a proper running form, but they have to run at 125 or 120 heart rate. At that point, they're going between possibly a walk into a slow jog and still trying to maintain proper form like that. That can be challenging at times, I think, especially starting out with low heart rate training.

What, what are your thoughts on something like that? Um, so with that part, yeah, I would say you are going to have that, but that's, but, uh, but to me that's almost the same thing as say like for you and I, when we first start running, it's easy for us if we start to get into that part, we may be at 140, 150. So it is a challenge for someone who's like, say, you know, 55 years of age. I would think, yeah, you still got to get used to the walking, but that also tells me then, were you a good runner? Were you a proper runner during that time period? Because if you were— because we, you and I, we, I can, we see all these reports about these 70, 80-year-olds that are able to run sub-3. I'm pretty confident that they probably are doing it correctly, and I'm pretty sure they started like at probably 110, 115, 120. And I'm— and I know it's going to be problematic for some people, but get used to that walk, get used to that run, because I think 'Cause to be 120 at that kind of slow pace, it means that to me, you either haven't really properly hydrated or had proper nutrients in you, and you're probably at a low point, or you may have not exercised properly in that sense. And I think for them is to get past that idea to stay at 110, 115, 120, and it's gonna suck for the next month or two, But I think they will see gains like we were talking about before. It is a, it is a process. And I know a lot of people are going to say, yeah, they're going to have to get proper form and all that kind of stuff. And it's going to be challenging for them, but they, I would tell them, you will see where you're able to run a lot longer. You're just going to have to be extremely patient. Yeah. Um, yeah, I've seen that a few times too on there that, uh, some people like in their 50s or 60s, 60s, sort of like that.

And you're still improving a lot even by going out on a 30-minute walk. Yeah, doing that consistently, like 5 days a week, 6 days a week. And then as you can start integrating a 30-second jog and then a 1-minute jog. And yeah, over time you do start seeing those improvements.

Oh yeah. But then we can even talk about like, like with you and you're saying Like we were talking about, you had that 100-mile run, like you've been really good at road, and you ran 2:40 in Boston, and that was before. Yeah, yeah. So when you had to get back, you said you can only go 30 minutes. And I think for some people who are 55, they're thinking, oh, we can't do that. It's like, well, look what we did, and look how if we come back— yeah, we— if I come back from an injury, I have to start back at 1:10, 1:15, 1:20. So Yeah. I mean, they just got to look at, say, yeah, we've done it before. And we're, I mean, I like to think you and I are pretty aerobically fit, but you know, if we've been gone for a period of time, we have to go low. So I think if you're someone who's a little bit older, yeah. I mean, it's, it's hard, but yeah, you do that. Like you were saying, you do that 30-second or 30-minute walk and that becomes a 15-minute jog and it becomes a 30-minute jog. It's, it's just one of those processes we all have to go through. It doesn't matter what age really. I mean, it's. It's universal where you have to walk, you have to crawl before you walk, and you have to walk before you run. But it's also really rewarding. I think my father, he even says he wants to get back into running. He may have to have a knee replacement. I don't know if he wants to run. He's in his mid-50s. He's gonna have to walk for a while. I mean, there's no way he's gonna be near 120, 130, 140 heart rate. While running 10 miles.

There's just no way. Yeah, but then again, he doesn't have to go for 10 miles either. But yeah, I'm gonna make him.

Yeah, but he did football in high school, so I'm gonna get a whip and say, no, no, no, you're— you did this to me when I was growing up, so now it's my turn to do it to you. And guess what?

You're older now, so get used to it. Classic. No, but even, even indeed, just for him to go out and to strengthen those muscles and ligaments and all of those things.

Yeah. But that's another thing. Yeah. Like you're saying, like the ligaments. I mean, a lot of your body's not really adapted to it just yet. So I know for some people, no matter what their age is, their body's got to get used to it. And I think to slowly do it, to get used to it, then like I said, you'll be able to go longer. And I think you look at some of the people who are like, that are just crazy to me. Well, I mean, not crazy because I want to be one of them, but you know, so go figure to be at 70, 80 and just run 3 sub-3-hour marathons. I mean, Yeah, that's— and that's impressive. And I know I would love to ask some of those people, like, how much of joy do you get out of doing it? I'm pretty sure that they say that they love it so much. And I'm pretty sure none of them are going for, I'm trying to get a sub-5-minute mile or something like that. Yeah. And so I think for some people who are like that in their 50s, they just need to look at that and just think, yeah, Slowly work your way up and eventually your heart rate is going to go down and you're able to go a lot faster, quote-unquote faster and stronger. I love it. Absolutely. And there's nothing more than seeing yourself lose to a 50-year-old because you're like, what the heck? They're like, yeah, I've been doing this for a while and I'm just going to go do something else. I'm like, do another race, please.

Makes me feel bad.

No, I'm joking. I don't mind losing. I'm doing all these races now. I'm losing I'm listening to all these 18-year-olds. I'm like, wow, I'm ready to see some older people that are going to be around my size.

I'm like, you young whippersnappers.

Yeah. Right.

That's funny. I thought it was a very good point that you said earlier as well though, how basically, and I totally recognize and relate with this as well at the beginning when you're starting out and you're running shorter distances, even, even the 20 minutes might get you very tired and then 30. You can't even think the half marathon distance yet or the marathon distance yet. Yet indeed, as you continue to progress, I think very often the limitation lies where the imagination is and people just can't imagine even running the Boston Marathon because it seems so far away. Yet there are different stepping stones on the way to get there. And once you set your mind on it, there's going to be ways that you can set yourself up for a higher chance to succeed. And that's the same with you right now. It is so scary to sign up for a 200-mile race, yet that's the exciting part as well, I'm sure.

Yeah, it's incredibly scary, but I think that's the, that's the best thing about running. And for some people it's a, it's a never-ending chase of of what your mind is capable of and what you think you can do. And I love that aspect because when I first started out running, um, for anybody, you think, oh, a 10K. When I first started, it's like, man, there's no way I can, I can even fathom 6 miles. And then you do it, and then it's like, oh my gosh, I don't want to do that again. And then the next day, and it's like that. I'm pretty sure for everybody, you're like, you, the day you race and the day you're done, you're like, I am done with this. Too much. And the next day you're like, okay, what else is— but, uh, but yeah, it's amazing how limited, uh, you think before, but then afterwards you think, wow, I can do this. So let's see, can I, can I do this? Can I do this? And that's the best part, is that, like you're saying, like when you're— when you first start out, like, oh man, I can't imagine running 2 miles And then you get there and then you're like, man, I wonder what it'd be like to run 4. Then you're training for 4 and that becomes a curiosity. But I also think that's what I'm saying, that's what a love is, is that you want to keep doing it. And I think the— and that's just a, it's a really cool thing because then, because now you're— now I'm thinking 200 and right now, and I think as they get closer to them, it's going to be dreading. I'm like, ah, 200. And then Yeah, and 200's done. You hear like all these people, they want to do a 500-mile. There's got, there's got to be a limit somewhere. I got to see where this limit is.

I think, I think, I think the limit is Pete Kostelnik, who ran from Kenai in Alaska all the way to Florida. That must be the limit at this point still.

Yeah, I saw him when you were talking to him.

I thought, oh no.

Yeah, just people are taking, people are taking the extreme limitations to a whole other level. Exactly. Exactly. But I loved it when you're talking with him and all that stuff because it was so cool to see like that there, that there, there's no limit you can set to yourself if you do it right. And the way how he was doing it. So anybody who says it's gonna be so tough to run a 5K or something like that, or to walk 2 or 3 miles, you never know. And you could say it's tough, but then you can look at some of these people and how they're able to do it, but also know for them there's a process. Um, that gives— that should give someone a little bit of hope, but also a little bit of a motivation. Yeah. And, um, as dreadful as that is to think about, right from that to Florida, but it is, uh, it's also very, very inspirational, I would think, with, uh, with people like that. And that's the only cool things, I think, with you and with everyone else, is that it's a true inspiration. To think that yeah, you can go from point A to point B to point C and then keep going and keep going.

I think that's what's really cool. Absolutely. Well said.

Where can people find more about you, Andy? I guess for most people, if you're going to be in San Antonio area, I'm always going to be around somewhere. But also sometimes I'll get on Instagram and Facebook just for my name, Andy Hooks, and if they want to go for there. And I think also though too, if you want to get some advice or for more of anything else, shamelessly plugging in for your deal, for your PR, Marathon PR for people. If y'all have any questions, if y'all sign up for the program, advertising I guess, free advertising for your deal. But I think usually you and I are on there wanting to talk to people. So if anyone wants to get any information as well as some advice, I think for going on that program. I try to go on there with you and just try to talk to people because it's really, it's inspiring for me to be in touch with these people because I feel like, yeah, that's where I was before. And that's, for some people, that's where I, where I want to be with them. So I think going on, yeah, on either just, just my name on Instagram, Facebook, also to go on that Marathon PR program on Facebook is—

No, it's very nice to have you very active over there. And I see that you're in the Extra Mile Facebook group, you're posting in there several times as well. So definitely appreciate all your input there. And obviously you're on Strava as well, right?

Oh yeah. So I'm on Strava, uh, publicly. So if people want to see, uh, see the runs, um, and I also want to tell people, I think enjoy seeing the runs because of, I love about it is because you'll see that most of my runs are not going to be 5, 6 minute mile pace. They're going to be like, they're going to be time where it's 9 or 10 or something like that. And someone tell people. To me, that doesn't matter. Uh, what was my heart rate and did I love it? That's all that matters to me. Whatever the pace is, that's a, that's a pace. That's, that's for anyone who wants to look at those kinds of times and that kind of stuff. I'd rather just try to focus on mostly on the heart rate as well as how do I feel afterwards. And I think if you ever go on Strava and you see me on there, uh, most of the time I'm usually happy, not so much now with the weather, but once the weather cools, I know I'm going to feel a whole lot better on that part. Because I'm looking at Irvine, California on there, on that, I see like 80 degrees and 60 degrees. I'm looking at London, I'm looking at Berlin, and I'm seeing all these like 70 degrees. I'm like, oh, for once I'm just waiting for that to show up.

I miss those days.

Yeah, a few more months and it's going to be winter in your zone again. Oh yeah, that's the funny thing too. Yeah, we're so used to the heat, we're like, oh, come on, people. It's only 80 or 90 degrees, but then once it gets to around 40 or 50, we're like, oh my gosh, how can we survive on this coldness?

That's when people on the other side are like— Yeah, while the East Coast, Bill Callahan and those guys are texting me photos of all the snow and they're sending me hate texts when I'm like running by the beach with my shirt off.

Yeah, and now I think about that with the snow, it's like if you get that near Texas lines, people are just gonna go, oh my gosh, what happened? Exactly.

We're gonna freak out. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for all the insights, Andy. I'll make sure to link to your Facebook, Instagram, and Strava as well. And then, yeah, you might see some people contact you with a few questions or comment away on this YouTube video.

Oh, that'd be more than cool to see. I hope most people get to see it as well as see you on Strava as well. I think a lot of people will see that it's a growing trend of people, you know, not trying to go hard but trying to go quality over anything else.

And I think that's really cool. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll see you in Strava and probably Chicago and CIM possibly as well.

Possibly.

Yeah.

So CIM is going to be interesting because I told, I told my friend, So I know you're gonna be running and my friend's gonna be running it. So I said, I'm only gonna go just to watch and, you know, cheer them on. But I did tell them I'm either gonna possibly do that 5K they have on Saturday or maybe run that marathon for them on Saturday. So I'll run the marathon on Saturday possibly and tell them what it's going to look like. Watch out for these turns, watch out for here. So I might just go and just do the marathon.

I'll do it the day before. Might as well get your mileage up.

Yeah, why not? I need to get my long run in before Houston the next month anyway, so that's how it's done. It's like, you know what, I need to get a long run, why not do the marathon the day before? Perfect.

Well, we'll see you for the shakeout run over there then.

Yeah.

All right, thanks again, Andy. Appreciate it. You too.

Later. Bye now. Wow, you've made it all the way to the end. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this conversation. I hope you learned as much as I did. I did. All show notes from today's episode can be found at extramiles.com/21. That's the number 21. And more information about the Marathon PR program can be found at extramiles.com/marathon. In the coming months, I'm going to visit several cities in the US that I'm going to set up shakeout runs. So little group runs, and I would love to meet you over there. First one is going to be around the Chicago Marathon, so that is somewhere in early October, second week of October. Then I'm going to be running the New York Marathon, I'm just pacing someone over there, so I'm going to be out there in November. And then heading over to Sacramento in California in December. More information is going to be shared as soon as we lock down the exact date and location. Location is most probably going to be the day before the marathon, a short 30 to 40 minute shakeout run there. Many more episodes and podcasts are in the works. Many more videos are in the works as well. So make sure to subscribe and hit the notification button to be the first person to know when a new video drops. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation and I wish you a lot of fun out there on your runs.

Later.