No Pain All Gain with Amelia Vrabel

I could, you know, I used to be very structured at like I could only run at this time of the morning and I had to have this and that. And now I'm like, oh, it's just like I could just walk if I wanted to. And then usually I go out for a walk. And sometimes that's another thing, kind of going back to the cold weather, when it's really miserable, just tell yourself you're going for a walk. Chances are you'll probably start running. But you know, that's the best way to just get outside and get started is to just do something easy. It's always easier to start something with something easy and then you You'll be like out 5, 10 minutes and go, okay, I can jog a little bit. And then pretty soon you've done a half an hour, an hour, and you go, gosh, I'm glad I talked myself into that.

Welcome to The Extra Mileage Show, where I interview different guests on the topic of how to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. And today's guest, Amelia Freybol, she's a senior certified chi running and chi walking instructor. So she has worked with and trained with Danny Dreher, the founder of Chi Running himself, and he was actually a guest on one of the previous Extra Mile shows as well. Emilia is also an active member of the Marathon PR Training Program, and it's been really fascinating to follow her journey over the past several months and see her progress. In today's conversation, we have a deep dive in all of the different things that she has seen and learned over the many years as both an athlete but as a running coach as well. What I really like about Amelia is how honest and humble she is about the different challenges that you can experience as an athlete. For example, when first starting out with low heart rate training, she had to slow down her pace significantly to about a 14-minute mile. That's about an 8:40 minute per kilometer pace. So that included a lot of walking, especially in the area where she lives in the hilly terrain at altitude in Colorado. But I do think quite a few people people actually starting out with low heart rate training experience similar things as well as what she describes. And so she goes into detail of how she deals with it and different mind shifts that have really helped her on her journey. I have one quick favor to ask you, and that is this: if you've ever gotten any value out of the Extra Mileage Show, it would really mean a lot to me if you can take 10 seconds to head over to Apple Podcast and leave me a quick rating over there. Or even better, take 30 seconds and write a quick review. At this point, I have about 40 ratings on there, and it is my goal to get that to 100+ ratings. There's two different reasons for this. First of all, it will help get the show in front of more people, so more people can listen to it and benefit from it. But second of all, it will really help legitimize this show as well. For 2020, I have a lot of great plans for the Extramiles Podcast, and I have a bucket list of high-caliber guests that I would love to get on my show. At this point, with more ratings, it will just simply help improve my chances of getting some of these next-level guests on the show. So your help with this can absolutely make a difference. I'll make sure to add a link to the Apple Podcast below and in the show notes at extramileast.com/27. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Amelia Frebel.

Amelia, welcome to the Extra Mileage Show.

Thank you. Good to be here.

Yeah, absolutely. It must be quite warm here being for you coming from Colorado and seeing all your snow photos on Strava.

Yes, we have pretty bipolar weather. So it some days goes from really warm to really cold and sometimes on the same day. So it's always nice when it's, it's when you can wear shorts in the winter.

Yeah, I can only imagine. I definitely want to jump later on deep into like running in colder weather and how you deal with some of that. But Before we do, I would like to hear a little bit more about your actual background as a runner, just to get a bit of a better understanding of, of where you came from.

Yeah, sure. Um, so I've been running since about 1996, I wanna say. Um, I was, I was 20 and I, uh, really couldn't run at all when I started running. I was really, um, I, I was not unathletic growing up. I did a lot of dance, but I really never did anything running related. And both my parents were marathon runners and I I remember my mom visiting me to run a marathon and somehow I got inspired to try to go out and run a mile. And I went out and it was impossible. It was just, you know, I'm huffing and puffing, I can't breathe, and I can't figure out for the life of me why my mom, who's almost 30 years older than me, can run a marathon every month and I couldn't run a mile. So I'm like, okay, this has got to change. This doesn't make sense. So I started running and I realized, you know, pretty quick, if you slowed down and you just kind of took it at your own pace. And, you know, once you get past the first mile and the second mile and the third mile, and then eventually it gets, it gets easier. But it was a very humbling— it's very humbling, you know, when, um, you know, you think people that are in their 40s and 50s are old and you're in your 20s and you're like, oh, why can't I do this? So, um, but yeah, so that's how I got kind of got started. And I had actually, you know, been going to races since I was very young because my parents were both runners. So Um, I really kind of thought back then, especially in the '80s, it was more of a thing that people did that were really fast. There was no like middle ground social running community back then. It really didn't exist. So it was kind of back then I, cause I never really could run easily. I never even wanted to try when I finally got into it and I, uh, decided to, to give it a go. I, you know, kind of. Found it was something I actually enjoyed. And it's, you know, still something I, I love that I can still run with my mom. And, you know, we're many, many years later, and it's just something that we can do together still.

That's really special. You guys get to run together.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, but it took me, you know, a good 5 years before I could even run faster than her when I started. And again, very humbling. But, um, you know, it's, it's, it was a good sport for me because I was pretty competitive. And, you know, it's something you do for yourself and you can set your own goals. And I think that's something that made a lot of sense for me to get into. So yeah. Yeah.

Right on. So 20 years of marathon running already.

Yeah. Yeah. So one day I remember thinking, well, I had run. So when I was in college, I was in college in Indiana and the biggest half marathon in the country, at least, you know, 20-some years ago was the Indianapolis Mini. And I think it is still the biggest one in the US, but if it's not, it's very close. And that was kind of something I needed as a goal for me. I just started running and I I was like, okay, I need to kind of have something else to focus on besides all these exams and these things you have to do at the end of college. So I said, okay, I'm gonna try to train for this half marathon. And I got into that. And then I ran that right before, well, it was like between the time I finished my exams and when I graduated, it was right around that time. And then that fall I had moved out to Northern California. And of course the weather's perfect. I found this great running group to run with. And one day I remember running 16 miles and thinking, what's 10 more? I should sign up for a marathon. Marathon. And so I, uh, decided to sign up for my first marathon, um, which was actually down in San Diego. And my mom ran it with me, which is something like— I, you know, I know I was very, very fortunate to have her, her there for me because she really made me start off slow and not go out too hard. And like, all the mistakes people made, I had somebody right there telling me not to make.

You were actually able to avoid them.

So I avoided them, and I had like a 7-minute PR. It was insane, like, because I just if I had run my race that day, I probably would not have known what to do properly, but I had somebody kind of there to guide me along. So, um, so yeah, then I did that. And then, you know, not too much longer after that, I, I joke, although it's true, that my mom peer pressured me into running the Boston Marathon because she had qualified, you know, for the— she'd run a bunch of times, but she decided she was going to run it again. And then I was like, well, I'll, I'll try to go, but I don't, I don't have a qualifying time, so I have to go get one. So then later on that year, I went to CIM and qualified. And, um, then, you know, you kind of get into it and it's fun and it's just something that I like doing. And I've had years where I've run no marathons and I've had years that I've run probably 3 is the most, but, you know, I, I've run 20 marathons. It's been over such a long period of time that it's not like, you know, some people run 20 marathons in 2 years and that's a lot different and it's changed a lot, you know.

How, how has your running changed over the years? Like, what have you noticed from when you initially were training to like now, like having ran several marathons more, having gone through different training cycles, what were some of the things that you've adjusted over time?

Yeah, I mean, I am like the classic, or was the classic habitually injured runner when I started running. You know, because when you are a type A personality, and I always joke I'm a recovering type A personality, but my tendency is to try to push hard and go as much as I can and do what I can and, you know, get there and excel and all that stuff. Um, you know, you, you can sometimes lose sight of listening to your body and, you know, not really taking the cues early on. And I, I will say, if you want to know about a running injury, let me know. Cause I've had all of them. I, I, you know, when you're young, you can, you can get away with that a little bit more, but it definitely held me back, you know, and there were times when even when I was really at my best shape, I wasn't able to train in the way that I probably could have even been better because I knew that there was a breaking point for me that I was going to get hurt. And it wasn't a matter of. Of if, it was just what was gonna, what was gonna get hurt at that point. And so that is, um, you know, probably 10 years ago, I don't know that I would've known how much longer I was gonna be running because it was always something. It was like I couldn't go a year without some kind of big injury holding me back. And, um, so it's changed a lot because I've really found, especially in the last, you know, 6 years, as you know, as, as I, you know, got into chi running again and became an instructor, that I really became a much more mindful runner and really gave it a lot more of an overall holistic approach than I ever did in the past. Where, you know, when you're 25, 30, you can be a little more haphazard about things. They do catch up with you though. And, um, I really though wish I could have gone back now and established some of those habits back then because I just go, gosh, I, who knows what I would've been able to do. But, you know, I guess it's never too late. So a lot of people don't start running until they're older than me anyway.

So, yeah, it is so fascinating when you take a step back indeed and you start to realize that it's, it's not just the running component that's important, but the way you keep your stress levels under control, your nutrition, the way you have your mindset of you don't, have to always kill yourself on every workout. And when you kind of have gone through enough injuries, after a while you start to realize that there has to be some kind of other approach over here. And some people never come to that realization, and some people do end up experimenting with different things. But it's not easy to transition from indeed having that mindset of always running hard to like slowing down pretty significantly or taking a different approach like chi running. Like how was your transition initially when you started out with low heart rate training and with chi running? How did that go for you?

Well, when I first started chi running, when I first learned chi running was very long ago. So it was probably around 2000 or 2001. It was sometime in that timeframe where I got invited to a chi running clinic clinic in Palo Alto. I lived up there, and Danny was teaching chi running. He had this idea and basically just given free clinics all over the place, and I really latched on to it. I, I have an engineering background. The physics of it made a lot of sense to me, but I was also like 25 years old, and I didn't— I learned the things in my head, but I didn't practice them in my body because at that time in my life, I just wanted to run fast. I didn't really want to take 6 months and learn it and take a step back and figure it out and be more mindful. It was like, well, if I couldn't really get it into my runs the way I was running it, it just, it wasn't, I just didn't practice. I, you know, the word practice is something that's really key. Like, and so although I say I learned chi running a long time ago, I don't feel like I was a chi runner a long time ago. Like in my head I got it, but in my body I was doing something different. And it was hard because there was not— now there are instructors all over the world. There's books. There's tons of material. I have handouts that have like printouts from when chi running just started before the book was even written because that was all there was. And you know, it's so great how many resources there are now, but back then there weren't that many. And so I really learned it again in about 2013 when I was at a point in my life where I was so injured I couldn't do anything. And I was like, okay, I'll do anything now. I just want to run again. I want to walk again without pain. So I, um, that's when I went back and I learned. And then I said, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna practice. We're gonna, you know, I'm gonna go in every day and I'm gonna work on something and a little bit at a time. And just, you know, then when you kind of— I always tell people it's like making an investment. Like, you know, you put your money away in the short term, you have less money, okay? But in the long term, you have more money. Yeah. So you have to look at it that way.

That whole short-term sacrifice for like a long-term reward.

Yeah. And when, when I finally did that and I started to progress and realize like, oh wow, I can run faster without working harder and I'm not getting injured all the time and I'm feeling better. And, you know, I'm not wearing through my shoes as fast and like all these other little things that go along with it. Um, then, well, I'm like, why would I, why would I run any other way? And then once that opens up your idea to like, maybe the way you've been doing it is wrong, then you start to explore other avenues of maybe the way you've been doing it is wrong. Because although I will admit my mom used to tell me years ago I was training too fast and I should have listened to her. She's a very accomplished marathoner, ultramarathoner. And I was like, "Oh no, I'm not running too fast. I'm running a 9-minute mile and I'm an 8-minute mile marathoner. That's not too fast." And she was like, "No, no, no. If you're running a 9-minute mile, you should be like a 7-minute mile marathoner." And I'm like, "Well, I don't know. I can't run that slow." I, you know, when I took a step back and I really, really learned what it meant to run easy, then I was like, oh yeah, what I've been doing all this time was not easy. It was not even close to easy. It was like, you know, a 6 out of 10, not a 3 out of 10, which is probably where I should have been spending my time. And when you're running at a, you know, 6 out of 10 every day, 6, 7, 8, you know, assuming you actually have a scale of 0 to 10, like you can't do that forever. In fact, It's in many cases you're running too slow to recover, uh, sorry, too fast to recover and too slow to improve. And so I kind of say you're in no man's land at that point because, um, you're not really doing yourself any favors. And I would have been better off to just spend all of my running at like a 3 and do no speed work instead of just kind of this mediocre place that I was staying.

So what were some of those initial workouts like, um, when you first started out with Danny Dreher, um, and, and implementing that back in, because you have talked Like before we started recording, you've also mentioned a few different examples of actually integrating walking into some of your workouts and gradually getting into it. Can you talk a bit more about that transition?

Yeah, I mean, one thing I learned, especially as I was doing chi running the second time, the time I really learned it, was how important it was to learn to walk before you run. And the idea of walking is a funny one because sometimes I just go out for a walk and people go, "Oh, are you injured?" And I'm like, "No, I'm just walking." You know, it's somehow it seems if a runner is walking, there must be something wrong, right? So I really started doing— I followed a program that had some walking and some running, and there were focuses to work on when you were walking and focuses to work on when you were running, and it just kind of kept you fresh so that when You're walking, you're thinking about something. When you're running, you're thinking about something. You're not just bored out there because you're going so slow or trying to, you know, get through your workout. So I basically gradually increased the running and decreased the walking over time. And then that's ultimately how I was able to go from not being able to run at all until, um, you know, getting back to like even a 5K, which I hadn't, you know, and over time that would have happened anyway, but why not take the opportunity? To practice good technique when you're getting back into it instead of just putting headphones on and tuning out. And then are you really improving at that point? Are you just getting a workout in? So, yeah.

And I think even there, quite frequently I see people focusing primarily on what is that running pace versus when you're now getting some of these walks in or walks in combination with runs, you're actually making your muscles stronger, your ligaments, your tendons, your bones, and the whole foundation of your body becomes stronger. So when you are able to speed up over time, at least your body is able to handle it versus picking up speed right away, but your body is not there yet.

Right.

And that's, that's quite fascinating that I see frequently too.

And I think one thing that I've found is that if you have good technique running slow, you can run fast. You just— what the problem people run into is when they try to use a different technique to run slow, than to run fast. They go, well, how can I run fast? I've been running slow. Well, you know, with, with chi running, the technique is basically the same. You're just actually relaxing more to go faster. And, you know, you have to let it happen. You have to set up, set up the conditions to happen. You're not going faster because you're pushing harder. That's— and that's why when I— even though when I'm going faster, of course my heart rate is higher, I'm breathing differently, but there's no reason for me to be training at that pace because I can exercise all the same muscles going slower. And in the meanwhile, you know, improving my aerobic system and what really kind of, you know, convinced me of that to the degree. I mean, I knew that you could run even when I started becoming a Chi runner and I wasn't doing low heart rate training, I realized like, oh, I don't really need to run as fast as I've been running because I can run easier. But then when I started the MAF training and I had to really slow down and I was like, holy smokes, like, this is crazy. You know, I'm basically running slower per kilometer. Than I used to run per mile. Hmm. You know, and it was just, seemed totally insane to me that I'd have to go that slow.

What was, what was your training pace before that? And what did you have to slow down to at the beginning?

I would say I was like, just kind of looking back from at least when I have Garmin Strava data, you know, I was pretty consistently training in Colorado, um, around, You know, 9, 9 and a half minute pace. I would say it was probably my average, um, at that point. And I felt like that wasn't like killing myself or anything like that. Um, you know, my, uh, at the time my 5K time was like 24 minutes at altitude and which is, you know, just under 8 minute pace basically. So I was running like, you know, 9, you know, day I thought I was slow, I was in the tens. And then, um, when I started doing the MAF training, I was like at, um, 13 sometimes on a good day, but mostly it was 14s when I really started doing the 2-week test. And that's hard to do when you've been, you know, accustomed to, um, burning a lot of sugar and drinking a lot. You know, I used to have toast and coffee where I ran every day, and I still have coffee, but I felt like I couldn't even go out the door unless I ate something. So When you kind of take that away and you experiment with, well, what happens if I just go out fasted? And then your body's like, what are you doing? You know, this is not what we're used to here. So that messed me up as well because it was a time where I had to get used to that. But yeah, I went from like a 9-something pace to like a 14-something pace. And, you know, I kind of some days go, gosh, I think I could walk faster than this. I'm pretty sure I could walk faster than this. And then I found it a little bit frustrating. So I kind of stopped and started it a bit, a bit. I kind of understood, like, it was like the chi running the first time. Like, I was bought into the idea in my head, but I really wasn't practicing it. So I, um, then I decided I'm, you know, when I did the 2-week test the last time and I went all in and I just, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to see, I'm going to see if I can improve. And, um, I did it actually for, this was a year ago. I did it for a couple of months of base training and then I started Training for a half marathon. Now in retrospect, although I do think it was helpful, I think I did not do enough base. I could have done more base training. Right. So then after April or May, when I finished the races, I really like May, middle of May. I didn't do any fast training until I started this last marathon, you know, outside of a couple of races that I ran, but one race actually. Um, but I found I was actually started to improve more just when I did the base training and really built up the volume. And, and, uh, and then what was the really the biggest thing and the reason I do it, the reason I do it. And the reason, even though I sometimes think, well, maybe I could run a little faster because I'm actually running pretty slow. I mean, I mean, I think, I think, you know, you, I think the slow running is helpful. I think there's a, there's a whole big range where you're going to improve and maybe you can improve more at the top end, but, you know, maybe you're a little bit better off to be conservative and let yourself improve gradually versus, is, you know, going over the top end and then setting yourself back. But really, even at the, what I would consider a very moderate conservative end, I was saying, well, shoot, I've run my best 5K since I've lived in Colorado 3 times this year. Uh, well, one of them was in Florida. So I will say, I guess I only ran it twice at altitude, but it was still the 2 fastest ones I had run in many years. And, you know, I've done my best half marathon in many years. And I'm going, well, okay. Even if I could be running faster, I'm not actually racing any slower. In fact, I'm racing faster. So of course I'm going to continue doing this because it's working.

So yeah, that's good. It's a, it's a fascinating journey that way where I think for a lot of people who start out with low heart rate training, they have to go significantly slower. And even what you're describing, going from a 9-minute mile down to a 14-minute mile is definitely like, I hear the question daily, is this really working? Is this like, I, this can't be right. I have to walk in order to stay aerobic, or I have to walk in order to not have my heart rate alarm go off all the time. And I think once you de-stress and you start seeing some, some improvement, you could see it work, but quite some people might not see improvements right away. Have you— because you have surrounded yourself with different people training this way as well— like, what were some of your observations when you see people talk or hear people talk about some of these frustrations? What are, what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I mean, I've, I've been there on a lot of them, and it's It's hard, you know, because, you know, you're kind of, you're kind of going, well, am I, am I setting myself back? Okay. Well, first of all, like, even if you only do it for a few months, a few months in the grand scheme of things is maybe if you, even if you were setting yourself back is really not setting yourself back in the long run. But, but I think, you know, there's a lot of people are trying to understand what they should be doing. And some people have a really easy time, I think, transitioning into low heart rate training or easier time because maybe they have actually been running easy. And then some people have a harder time, I think, when they're in the range where I'm at, where they're almost kicked back to the almost walking phase. And I used to not really want to run that slow. I mean, I want to go outside and run fast. And so I had kind of an idea where I said, well, either I'm going to have to try to run really slow and, or I'm going to have to figure out a way to just take walk breaks early enough that when I started the walk break. I didn't— I wasn't already to the point where my heart rate was going up, up, up, because you have to— I found that initially, early on, I had a really hard time managing my heart rate at any heart rate. Yeah, right, except for maybe the very high heart rate. But you give me a heart rate and wherever I stopped, I was going to go up 10 counts from, from wherever that was. And so once I learned how to warm up properly and I learned how to manage my heart rate, most of the time now if I start walking at any heart rate, regardless of like what I'm running at, I can keep it within probably about a 5-count range before it starts to go down again. Whereas early on, that's really hard to do. So, you know, I started running and walking. I live in a really hilly place. There's really not a flat place to train in town. I mean, even the flat places— I mean, people look at my Strava and it looks like I've climbed a mountain. That's our flat trail.

Plus, you live on 6,000-foot elevation.

Yeah. 6,000 feet, you know, 7 in some places. And so that definitely has an impact on heart rate training. So what I did was also just, as I got frustrated, I also sort of took with, with not having hills, sometimes I said, well, you know, there actually are places in town where the hills are so steep that I wouldn't even want to run up them. Yeah. So I found a couple of those and I just walked the whole way up the hill and then I could run down the hill. And then That's a little bit easier because you kind of are in going into it knowing that, you know, the hill itself will limit you from wanting to run. And then, you know, maybe over time it's like, oh my gosh, I can actually walk, run a little bit up this hill. That's pretty cool. You know, and so, um, I didn't have a treadmill. I don't have, I don't have access to a treadmill. So, you know, only time I ever run on treadmills, if I'm traveling, I'm at a hotel. And so I don't have something like that could keep me at a constant pace. You know, at a constant elevation or grade or whatever. So, um, I, I kind of just did what I could to, um, to be able to, you know, just make it enjoyable and go different places. And, and I found just different routes that I like to do where I'd go, okay, I'm gonna walk the first mile because it's all uphill, and then I'll be able to run downhill. Or maybe I'll start downhill first and see if I do my warm-up that way. And then how far can I make it uphill before I have to start walking again? And I have been, um, I use Final Surge as like a training tool. And one of the things I put in there, and I also can now that we have Elevate, um, it Elevate, I like actually a little bit better from the standpoint that it can measure cadence and break that out. But before I had access to that, I, I used Final Surge and I still use both of them. But one thing I identified was I found the pace kind of where I was definitely not running and definitely walking and the pace where I'm definitely running. And, and so I kind of figured out that. Somewhere right around about a 14-minute pace, I was walking. I mean, anything slower than that, I was not running, I was walking. And anything faster than that, I was probably jogging. So I started to kind of measure how much time I was spending in my runs above a 14-minute pace and below a 14-minute pace. And so I look at that percentage, and whereas, you know, it used to be 70% walking, you know, that's come down. I have days I still walk a lot, there's— but now I'm kind of in days where I'm in the 40s, and I'm like, that's a great day, that means I ran more than I walked. So I'm actually running— what's actually funny is I'm actually running fairly close to a similar pace that I was running. I would say most of my running, because I also can break that down with the app, most of my running I'm doing at, you know, around that 9, 10, 11-minute pace, you know, somewhere in there. It's a little hard to gauge, but I'm walking a lot. So my overall pace ends up slower, but I'm very encouraged by the fact that as I see the walking percentage go down and the running percentage go up, but I'm staying within my heart rate range. That I'm still practicing those same things that I'd be doing in a race closer to that, and it's helping me.

So it sounds very recognizable because we have some very tall mountains over here. And if we go up to, let's say, Mount Baldy and it's 10,000 foot, some of the grades are very steep as well. And I can simply not run up them, like, and even at a 20-minute mile or 22-minute mile up some of those, my heart rate would be at 140 or 145. So it's even during a hike up, like, whatever grade that is, as long as you're, you're staying aerobic, you're doing a great job developing that aerobic base. I think the mistake that quite a few people end up making is, all right, there's a hill and you still try to run up it and you just see how quickly your heart rate shoots up, or when you start to do other sports as well, that, all right, in running you stay aerobic, yet you transition it to another sport and all of a sudden people are still riding their bike at 160 or 170 heart rate. And so, yeah, that's—

yeah. And those hills are, to me, especially at altitude, irrecoverable. If you start running up them too fast at the beginning, like all bets are off changing your heart rate for the rest of the run, you know? So I really, I try to run— I actually prefer to do all my runs where I can start off walking uphill and then running most of the downhill, and then maybe at the end get a little bit more as I've, as I've warmed up. I can start to run a little bit more, but you know, you're kind of running at all paces. You're walking. I'm not running probably ever at like a 13-minute pace, even if I'm averaging a 13-minute pace, but I'm always relaxed because I'm never getting into the zone where I'm working my body too hard and I think people again underestimate what walking does for you because, you know, you run the way you walk. So if you don't learn how to walk well, I don't know how you can expect to learn how to run well. And it even goes farther, like you walk the way you stand. So like, if you don't have good posture, you're not going to walk with good posture and you're not going to run with good posture. And that's something you can practice all the time. You don't have to wait until you're at your hour a day run to figure out how to have good posture. I mean, you could sit in your desk with good posture. And then if you're driving in a car, adjust your mirrors and stand behind your desk, stand behind your desk, walk around. I mean, there's all those— I always tell people, you, if you run for 1 hour a day, you have 23 other hours that you could be working on your running. I mean, some of that's rest that also works on your running, but even the hours besides that, you could be working on your running. All these little things that add up and just make it easier to run, make it more fluid and Yeah.

Can you talk a little bit more about running in winter conditions? Because it's one thing to be running here in California in the winter where it doesn't really get that cold, at least in Southern California, whereas in your area in Colorado, you're surrounded by snow 6 months out of the year. How do you deal with that training for some of your races?

6? No, more. I'm just kidding. But sometimes it's more. So yeah, it's, uh, well, so I started— when I started running, I was in college in Indiana. And, you know, back then it was also cold. And I used to tell myself, like, if it wasn't freezing, or like, if it wasn't below freezing, you weren't wearing tights. Because I don't know what I'd wear when it was 10, you know, if it was. So it's— but it's the same kind of idea where, you know, you have to prepare yourself to run in a range of conditions. Will I run in anything? No. I mean, there are points where I've run and I go, you know, that might be my limit. You know, when it's 5 below and, you know, 20-mile-an-hour winds.

You're talking 5 below in Fahrenheit. Yes. Not in Celsius.

No. And so, you know, there's, I'd say in Colorado, our biggest problem is not always the actual temperature. I mean, our temperatures do get cold, but our winds get really much worse. And so, you know, even when it's 5 above Fahrenheit and, you know, 20-mile-an-hour winds, it's cold. It's really cold. And so, um, you know, but for the most part, because I don't have a treadmill, I'll pretty much run in most conditions as long as there's not ice all over the roads. And when there is ice all over the roads, you know, I do have traction, so I'll wear that. It's not the most fun thing to run in, but it definitely feels— makes you feel a lot safer when you're ice skating through a neighborhood.

So as far as for traction, you mean the actual spikes below your shoes?

Yeah. They're ice trekkers. They're like Yaktrax. Some people use micro spikes when you're on a trail. They're a little bit more grippy, but for running around town, you know, because they don't really— our city actually plows our trails in some cases before the actual neighborhood. So if you're just going to run around your neighborhood because you can't actually drive anywhere, then I Sometimes I'll just put them on and then, you know, then you don't— it kind of takes a little bit of the worry out of I might slip and fall because, you know, you're going to hit a patch here or there and it's not fun, you know, if you go down. So, but for the actual temperature, I mean, I'll pretty much run in almost anything. And, you know, obviously you need to have the right gear. Layers is probably the most helpful thing. And one thing in Colorado for sure that's different than a lot of places is we have such a range of temperatures on any given day that it can change so much. That, um, sometimes you just have to prep, you know, you might, you might have to prepare to get rid of your gear. And so you'll wear a vest or something to stash something in your back, you know, when you have to get rid of it or bring something else on or what have you, especially if you're climbing or anything kind of changes. But it's, um, it's challenging because it's, you know, those first couple steps you're like, oh my goodness, it's really cold. Why am I out here? I'm freezing. And Usually though, when you get, assuming you're dressed properly, when you get past the first few minutes, it's not so terrible. And actually, I mean, I actually love running in the cold. I have run my 3 best marathons in the 30s. And that to me is an ideal. When people say 50s is ideal, I'm like, no, that's too warm. I need 30s. Like it needs to be maybe max of 45. And I find that to be totally perfect. When it gets too sunny or humid or these other things, it's very hard. But, you know, running in the 20s— I know. I mean, and that's one thing we don't have. So we trade in the humidity for the altitude. And so when I do run in humid conditions, it is harder for me, I think, because I know—

same here. Absolutely.

And you don't have that much here normally. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so it's, you know, but I, I think you got to have the right wardrobe and that also sort of helps you want to wear those clothes and use them if you have the right clothes and, you know, the right shoes. When I, when I moved to Colorado, I ran a race a few years ago in some snow, and I think my feet were frozen for like 5 hours.

It was, it was just dangerous too.

Yeah. So I bought a pair. Somebody kind of told me, well, you know, have you thought about buying a pair of waterproof shoes? And I'm like, well, I don't know how much I'd use them. She's like, but you live here. Yeah, you know. So I've had them for like 5 years.

What brand?

Ultra makes them. A waterproof version of their trail shoes. And those things have been lifesavers. I can wear them in, you know, a foot of snow and, you know, wear wool socks and at least my feet aren't cold. And that's really hard when your feet are cold.

It's not fun. Absolutely. It's like gloves you can wear and you can get around cold fingers, but toes, it's always my number one way. My number one reason when I turn around on the trail is because of cold toes.

Yeah. So wool socks and, um, some kind of waterproof or water resistant. I mean, Altra is not the only one who makes a water resistant, but you know, If you live here, maybe not such a good investment. I don't think you'd really get your money's worth out of it. But if you're going to do training in cold or snow or anything like that, then yeah, they're great. They save me when, you know, I use them probably 5 to 10 times a year and that's fine. Like, you know, they're in great shape and I'll probably have them for 10 more years and that'll be fine. So yeah, the gloves for sure. I wear hand warmer sometimes. When it's really cold.

Which gloves do you wear? Do you have specific running ones or do you have anything?

I have a bunch. Yeah, I have a bunch. Sometimes I wear gloves, sometimes I wear mittens. Usually when it gets around probably below like 20, 15 or 20, I wear the mittens just because otherwise even in the gloves, I'm finding myself taking my fingers out of the gloves to kind of grow, you know. And then, uh, like always a hat and a buff. The buffs are awesome because, you know, your face gets cold. And, you know, usually though, I find that just from a base layer, I don't often wear a jacket except for maybe a light jacket, but I find it more important to just have like a vest or something to keep your core warm. And, um, you know, some good tights, but, you know, you can also The upside of some of that is that, you know, when you wear these, this, when it's this cold, you really don't sweat as much. So you can actually wear your clothes. You don't have to wash them every time you wear them because it's, you know, they stay clean as they never really get sweaty.

So what does your warmup look like in the winter months like that?

I laugh when I say I'm warming up because I'm not actually warming up, but, um, my warmup is pretty much the same. Like I start, I walk for 5 minutes. Ish, you know, usually I walk somewhere, I would say somewhere between 3 to 5 minutes. Um, I don't time it, so I don't really know. But, um, now when I start my run, I always do a 10-minute warmup where I only run to like 20 counts below my math. So, um, that's 122. And so what I'll do is I'll just start jogging. And when I get to 122, I start walking. And then when I, when I, uh, and then, you know, when I get out of that, I'll start jogging again and walking, jogging, walking. And so I just do that for 10 minutes and, you know, I'm sometimes not totally warmed up, but I feel like I've done enough now where I've at least accustomed myself to getting out there and going. And then I do the same thing. I, after I do my run, I do the same thing on the 10 minutes cool down. And then, you know, try to plan it so that I also can walk a few more minutes back to my car. There are days though, where I skip the walk at the end, just because it's so cold that, you know, I just don't want to be out there any longer.

So if it— why do you, um, warm up until math minus 20 and not until like the MAF zone itself?

Well, because I found that when I started— and this is probably something I could evaluate what I'm doing still— but because a lot of times I don't actually run all the way up to my MAF. So I have a lot of days where I just do MAF minus 10 or MAF minus 5. So because for me, if I'm gonna run up to 122, you know, I'm really gonna get up to like probably 126 or 127 before it starts to come back down again because that's such a such a slow heart rate that it's like, you know, so I guess for me, I find that usually when I do that, it kind of keeps me somewhere in that, I don't know, almost to MAF minus 10 or 15 range before. Sometimes I've also experimented with, I used to do like MAF, I'll do the warmup and then I might do MAF minus 10 or MAF minus 5 or MAF, but then lately I've been experimenting setting my watch so that I just start off at MAF minus 10, and then I might go to MAF minus 5, and then back to MAF minus 10, or like not commit to one in the whole run, but maybe kind of gradually build it up. And it's sometimes funny when you run at MAF minus 5 or 10 and you're at the same pace as when you run up to MAF, because you just kind of are more— I don't know if it's just I know I'm running slower and I'm more relaxed about it or, or whatever, but But I've just kind of played around with it mostly because I feel that it just mixes it up if nothing else. And even I think to run up to MAF every day is like, it's boring and it's always the same thing. And so, and especially as you get fitter and MAF gets harder to reach, then it's going to be harder every day if you, if you continue to do that.

So it's definitely nice to mix it up. And I think what you were saying earlier too, that you have those hills. Very close to you so you can actually hike up the hills and run down. I think that's another good way to kind of mix up the pace too that way.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, and that's fun cuz then, you know, you're actually, but even, I mean, there's hills that, I mean, mountains, you know, you, you need to hike up them slowly or you're gonna go over your math number pretty quick. I mean, people are always amazed at like, you know, you look at the outside of the winners that run the Pikes Peak Marathon, you know, the, a great finishing time is in the 5, 6-hour marathon finish. And it's amazing to think that that's a great finishing time if all you've ever seen is a flat marathon, but you have no idea what it takes to go up and down that in 5 hours. And the fact that the guys who win it can do it in 3-something is just mind-blowing because it's, you know, that's an 8,000-foot climb that is, you know, on a rocky trail that isn't that easy to run down either.

So it's, and a steep grade and thinner air of being on higher altitude. The combination of the two is no joke.

Yeah. And dealing with a trail that you've got to watch your footing both ways and other people.

Let's talk about speed work for a bit because yes, you are training quite a bit at low heart rate. However, you are incorporating some speed work as well. What type of speed work do you integrate?

So I've done Um, I would say the most common thing I've done about, I guess I do two kinds of speed work. So usually once a week on some weeks, not every week, cause I do take a week every few weeks to just kind of drop back and, you know, I'll do a few minutes at like 10K pace. I might do like 3 or 5, 5 sets of 3 minutes at 10K pace. Um, you know, in the middle of a run and with, uh, with usually with equal recovery. Um, and then I like that because although I, I like to do it because, you know, once you, when you're running slow for a long time, there's a nice relaxing thing about running slow, but sometimes it feels good to just kind of open up your legs and run fast. So when you're only doing it for 3 minutes, you're really not getting tired. And I don't really focus so much on the pace as much as I actually set the pace on my Garmin mostly so I don't exceed it. Because sometimes when you've been used to running so slow and then you, you kind of open up and run fast, like I don't really need to be out there running 5K pace during this. But so I try to make sure I'm not running too fast during the intervals. Um, and sometimes I'll also, because I'm, I mean, I'm cheating a little bit, but I'm training for a marathon at sea level and I live at, you know, 6,800 feet. So, you know, I will do sometimes my speed intervals down a slight grade because I really don't need to be also doing them uphill when I'm not training for something where it's uphill. So the goal is really, you know, I'm getting my legs turned over, but I'm not trying to kill myself breathing. So I'll do that. And then sometimes I've also experimented with doing like a faster finish at the end of a long run. I've experimented with doing some faster workouts in the middle of a long run, like a 20 minutes, 15 minutes Those are harder for me. I had a little challenging one a couple weeks ago when I tried that. And, but I really love the fast finish long run. I just, I did, I did a, a 16-mile run on Sunday and I, first of all, haven't run 16 miles since probably a year and a half when I did a marathon. And, so, and I picked a really hilly course to do it on. Because it's a great course and I love, I love training on it, but I decided I was going to try to run the end of it like a little bit faster, like just not really with any specific pace in mind, just more, just kind of like pick up the intensity. I'll do it for half an hour. Okay. So I didn't, when I realized that, I also kind of forgot that the whole end was going to be mostly uphill, but it was actually amazing how good I felt as I was finishing this run. Cause I'm thinking, oh my goodness, I'm running uphill. I'm still, you know, under a 10-minute pace and it doesn't really feel that hard. And I haven't even done this distance before, but because I kept the first 12 miles so slow, so easy, it was like, it kind of simulated more of like what you might feel like at the end of a race going harder. And I just, you feel strong when you do those runs though, cuz you're like, gosh, if I could pick it up, you know, 12 miles in on a 60-mile run that was 1,100 feet elevation gain, then I'm like, okay, I'm feeling good today. Because, you know, and it was uphill at the end. And then I think mentally that gives you a lot of confidence. I am not, I'm kind of grappling around right now with, you know, at my pace, I can't run a long run at 2.5 hours and get a lot of miles in still in math. So, you know, as I'm preparing for the marathon, it's a little challenging to think, oh goodness, like I'm going to be running a marathon for like an hour and a half or 2 hours longer than this. And I won't have done that before. And, but I think that sometimes that's more mental than anything. I don't know that I needed to, you know, I don't know that I need to run another, you know, 3+ hour run other than in my head. Because after doing one and going, well, okay, this is like the longest run I've done by like an hour., and it still felt pretty easy. Then I think it was kind of more mental, like feeling like I needed to do.

Well, plus I think as well, when you are in training mode, you are running like more volume in that week, right? So your legs over several months have become more used to actually running, like even though it might be an hour here and an hour and a half or 2 hours there. At the end of the day, the overall training volume of that week might be 5, 6, 7, 8 hours, and on race day, you typically have tapered legs, you feel fresh, you have support on the side of the course, and just all of those little things give you more energy as well that you are able to push beyond certain boundaries of what you have been able to do in training.

But I think in your head, that— Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, I've always kind of felt like I had to do a 20-mile run or a 22-mile run. And even my last marathon that I did not really do, I did low-intensity training, but not to the degree of the building volume. I didn't run anything longer than 16 or 17 miles. I was just fine, you know? And it was really, it's really more in your head that you feel like you have to do that. And I think one thing I've also learned, and I'm kind of digressing here, but is I used to put a lot of value in the long run, and I still find it to be a very valuable run, but it's not everything. And I think too many runners, I see them put so much stock in the long run and then kind of forget what they're doing for the rest of the week. That the long run is important, but if it's not everything, and if you're not doing the volume in the rest of the week, it really won't matter what you do for your long run. And, you know, I don't even know if it's there's definitely a number you probably need to get to or a time you probably need to get to, to make sense. But I see so many people, you know, thinking, oh, I'm doing an 18 and a 20 and a 22, but then the rest of their runs are like 4 miles. And I'm going, well, that's, that's really hard on you that one day a week. Cause you're not really doing the rest of the volume to build yourself up for that long run. And I, you know, I found that like, as I've gotten older, I've done my long run has become a smaller percentage of my overall run, and that seems to work.

I think that's, that's a really good point right there. Like the consistency of the training and just putting in the hours throughout the week as well versus banking 50% of your training volume on one long run might, might get you in dangerous water there for sure.

Yeah. And also I think, you know, when you live in a place that the weather is a bit unpredictable, just from a practicality standpoint, you can't bank your long run on one day. Things go south, that, yeah, you know, that's, that's your day. And so, I mean, yeah, I definitely always encourage people to really build up a reasonable long run, but I really feel like if you train properly, it becomes probably less important how long your long run is. If you're doing— if you're able to get up the next day and do it again, then you've done a lot more for yourself than to go run a long run that, you know, I used to run a 2 or 3 hour run and I'd be I was like, done. There was nothing else I was doing that day except eating dinner. And so was I really doing myself any favors? I mean, mentally I was, 'cause in my head I said, okay, well, I know I've run 20 miles, so I know I can do it in the marathon, but my body was depleted for a few days after that and I really wasn't able to do anything else.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do wanna say thanks for introducing me to Danny Dreher. Because that was really nice that you were able to make the connection. And because of you, we're able to interview him on the Extra Mileage Show here. So, so that was very nice. What was it like training as one of the coaches under Danny? What was that experience like for you?

I mean, Danny is such an amazing person to learn from. I mean, he's always still coming up with different ways to, you know, teach people how to run better, how to move better, how to live better. I mean, it's— and, and so, you know, I always learn so much. I teach with Danny every year somewhere. Um, he kind of goes around the country and even around the world in some cases and does workshops. And, you know, as part of keeping my certification, I have to, um, you know, instruct with him and, you know, learn from and continue my continuing education kind of idea. But I would do it if I didn't have to, because every time I do one of these workshops, I learn so much. And so, you know, he is— I still remember some of the stuff he said to me when I was young. And I was like, you know, I remember him telling me that if I could learn to run slow well, I'd be able to run fast well. And I'm like, I can't run slow. And I remember him telling me to— I didn't need my knee brace or my orthotics or all these other things. And they, you know, and when you think you need them because you always can come up with an excuse in your head why you're different and why you need something. And, and really when you kind of take a step back and go, well, maybe I don't, maybe I can think about this differently. Maybe I can improve the way I'm running and I won't need it anymore. And, um, you know, it kind of makes you rethink what you need to be doing.

And I mean, Danny is, is still running phenomenally and, you know, even at age 70.

Yeah. He's amazing. So, um, Um, and I ran with him a couple of years ago and he was hauling down trails in like pretty much canvas sneakers.

I've seen some of the footage and I'm so impressed by his running.

It's, it's incredible. Yeah. So, I mean, it's amazing. I mean, all the instructors I learned from, so it's always great to spend more time with other instructors because, you know, we all teach different types of people. We all have different backgrounds. Um, and we all have, you know, just a different, you know, some people are triathletes, some people do a lot of walking, some people train, you know, uh, all women, some people do, you know, fast runners, some people do kind of whatever, but it, you know, and their backgrounds are different because, you know, you don't have to be a fast runner necessarily to be a good runner. And you may just choose not to spend your time. And then there's people who are actually really, you know, accomplished runners and, and have found that, you know, chi running has enabled them to be accomplished runners for longer than they probably would have versus, you know, there's so many more people that burn out over time and, you know, don't have, uh, don't have the ability to run anymore because, you know, I always hear people telling me, I used to run, now I'm a biker because I can't run, my knees hurt, you know. I hear it all the time, all the time. And, and, uh, you know, or they start running, but because they don't really give it any thought, they just kind of go out there and do what they think they need to do. It's hard and they think it has to be hard. And that's a big problem too, is like No, no, no. You don't just go out there and like go hard every day. Like no other sport practices that way, you know? So why would we do it that way? So, um, but yeah, I've, I've learned a ton from him just in terms of like just the whole approach, but then also just little things, you know, he'll point out things. I'm like, oh, I never really thought about how that would affect my running. You know, the fact that my wrist was drooped, you know, it was like, well, I didn't realize I was introducing tension all up my arm. Arm, but it does. And then that plays into how tense I am and probably has an effect on my heart rate and other things.

It's all related. It's fascinating. When Danny and I spoke last time, he mentioned about the importance of, for example, having your body move all in the right direction. And even with arm swings, for example, truly being able to have the arm swing on the side of the body instead of left and right. And it's funny because after that conversation, I went on a few runs and now I'm very analytical and looking at everyone's arm swings. And all of a sudden you start noticing how much inefficiencies there are out there with running, even with little things like an arm swing alone already. And just tweaking some of those things were like being able to run more efficient. Like, yeah, you can have an aerobic engine that's really good, but if you're running inefficient, you're losing so much energy right there already. That was quite fascinating for me to see as well.

Yeah, the arm swing is probably for me the number one thing I work on because I've gotten better, but I used to really like to carry my arms out to the side and—

Yeah, mostly like that.

You see it left, right? Or just mine were like hanging out here. You know, it was like somehow I thought I was at 90 degrees, but like they were not. Actually, interesting thing about the arm swing though is that I have I have, you know, my Garmin heart rate strap has sensors on it so it can tell your left-right balance. And so when I first got it, I've had it for a couple of years now. When I first got it, I was consistently harder on my left side. And I just sort of racked that up to, you're going to have a strong side. And, you know, if you're right-handed, it's generally your left side that you're going to be a little bit harder on. And it wasn't anything that bothered me. I wasn't feeling fatigued in my left side. I didn't really notice Notice it probably because I have a stronger left side, but I, um, I realized that I tried so many ways like to focus on it and see how I could get it to 50/50. Cause every once in a while I'd get it kind of close. Well, then I started really working on my arm. My right arm likes to kind of hang down a little bit lower and out to the side. Sometimes I think I would see race pictures and I'd be like, you know, that would be the thing that would get me on the race, especially in the later stages of the race, right? Where you start getting sloppy. Yeah. In the later, but it was pretty much consistently I'd see it. And of course, nobody else notices those things except for you. You're like ultra particular. But I started working on my arm swing and really focusing on like, you know, could I even see my thumb? Because if my thumb's down here, I can't see it. And so I really started working on that. And what actually happened is as I worked on that, my left-right balance improved. And I didn't really realize that what I— I mean, of course I knew what I was doing with my arms impacted my legs, but just sometimes where you need to make the improvement, you put your mind there, but really that's not the best place to put your mind to make the change. Yeah. So by putting my focus more on my arms, I corrected a different problem that, you know, I thought was a leg problem when it probably wasn't at all a leg problem. It was just because my arm would be down maybe for like a split second. I would be spending more time on one side because Cause you know, and so it's interesting to sort of see how it all plays together with, I mean, I'm a little bit of a data geek, so I kind of get into that stuff, but you know, so many people, honestly, I have to convince that their arms are important when they're running because they don't pay attention to it.

Yeah, absolutely. I love, by the way, that you're a data geek because I love data as well. What is the heart rate monitor that you're running with?

So I am using the Phoenix. The Garmin Fenix, and then I have this HRM.

HRM Run. HRM Run. Yep. Perfect. That one is nice.

I have the same one, actually. Yeah. It's not bad. It's my second one. They do wear out after a while. And, you know, I've replaced the battery a couple of times on it, but I have tried— I mean, the optical one for me is totally useless. I have tried multiple watches. I have actually run with two watches on and a heart rate monitor on at the same time just for fun to see what happens. At one time I had no battery in the heart rate monitor, the strap, and I ran a 5K and it told me I was at 135 running as fast as I could. And I'm like, well, that's not right. So, and then I've tried, I do have an armband as well. The Scoochy bands. And I find those to be better than the optical on the wrist, but not as responsive as the chest strap. So when I can, I use the chest strap, but I do have the other one as a backup more for—

Yeah. I've had this HR, like the soft strap one before. Like that was, I think the version before the HR Run. And now I recently just bought the blue one as well, which is the Garmin Tri. Yeah. Just so I can go swimming with it and kind of test out the heart rate that way as well.

Yeah. I think for the Fenix though, I always tell people if you're going to spend the money for this watch, you might as well get the strap because if you don't have the strap, I mean, one, I actually don't trust the optical wrist monitor. And then you also, even if you did trust the optical monitor, it still gives you all those running dynamics part of it that if you don't want all that, then why did you spend the money on this watch? You know, there are cheaper watches you can buy if you don't want all those things. So I like that about it. You know, there's things in there. I really probably pay more attention to the left-right balance because I don't really have— my ground contact time is pretty low in general. Um, I think the chi running is really plays a lot into that. My cadence is pretty high and so, or, you know, in the range, but it's more the, I like to see how I'm doing from the left-right standpoint and I like it from that perspective.

So, yeah, that's good. And then, yeah, there are, there are quite a few different data points that you can look at, even stride length and cadence and all of those kinds of things that show up, which is fascinating.

Well, some of those are calculated. It though. You know, it's calculating stride length from your cadence. So it doesn't really know your stride length. Um, and I've also found that when you have a more, like, I have a pretty constant cadence when I'm running. It varies only a little bit when I'm racing because I'm, I'm running kind of the same no matter what pace I'm running with a metronome anymore. No, not really. I don't really find that I need it. And honestly, with as much walking as I do, It's a little frustrating because I'd have to turn it on and off. Now, when I'm running, where I will use it is if I'm running consistently for a long period of time, sometimes I will set it because I find it to be somewhat relaxing to kind of keep you in that zone. But, um, like what I also find, because I run at a fairly consistent cadence when I run a treadmill, my pace is often— it overestimates it because it doesn't really understand that, like, I'm not running, you know, because I think it assumes you're gonna run at a much lower cadence at a slower pace, on a much faster cadence at a higher pace, and not everybody runs that way. Yeah.

So right now you have had many years of running experience, and if you would have to go back and you would have to give to yourself some advice of when you just started out with running, with all the knowledge that you have right now and the experience, what would you recommend to your younger self that I wish I would have kept that heart rate strap on so that my math would have been 155 or 160 when I started instead of trying to start it at 140-something.

Because although that probably would have been challenging, um, I think it probably would have maybe slowed me down. But, you know, at the same time, I, I try not to look at those kinds of things because I go, well, gosh, you know, getting hurt and making me really get into chi running has been like the best thing that ever happened to me because because maybe I wouldn't have become an instructor. Maybe I wouldn't have learned it again. Maybe I wouldn't have done all these things. And so I try not to look at things and go, well, if I had done this or I'd done that differently, then— because I think all these things happen for a reason. And you kind of sometimes have to take the long road to find out where you're going to end up. But yeah, I would say I was training too hard on my easy— I didn't know what easy was, basically. And I think that's a major problem with people. When I see people say easy, okay, easy is not marathon pace. Okay. If that's easy, then your marathon should be faster. I don't care what pace of a runner you are, but easy and marathon pace are not the same pace. And easy is definitely not faster than marathon pace. So, so, you know, that's kind of where I, I, I had, um, I would say if I could have done anything, it would have just understand that the value of what the real easy would have done, because I think what would have, what I would have been able to do would have been to have more volume and I would have been a better runner for having more volume, but I always had this volume limit because I knew that once I exceeded X, something was going to give out. And, you know, that I feel like would have been a thing to keep me running better.

So what, um, if you would give any other recommendations to people looking to improve in their running, because there's a lot of people listening to this who are looking to become not just a faster runner, but just like a stronger runner, a happier, healthier athlete. What are any other thoughts besides what we've already mentioned here that you would give as recommendations there?

I think get out of your own head. You know, I think so many people struggle with trying to do what everybody else is doing and feeling like they need to be at a certain pace to be— I mean, funny story, when I was little, because I would see my parents go to breakfast and, you know, sit with all their friends after races when I was young, I really thought that if you couldn't run a 10K in 40 minutes, you had no business running. And I find that so humorous now because I know actually very few people who actually are faster than that for a 10K. Um, but I think people tend to think, well, what's a good time for this? Or what should I be doing for this? And it's like, you need to start where you're at, wherever you're at, you gotta start there and trust the process and realize that, you know, your goals need to be long-term because having a short-term focus on running is just going to frustrate you because, you know, you can't improve in the short term to the degree that you want to. And so if you can't keep it up, you won't improve. And no matter how you choose to go about running, the bottom line is you're going to get better running if you can do more running. And if you're always hurt, you're not going to be able to do more running. And so like, there's so much, there's so much focus on what people's training paces and where you should be for this and where you should be for that. And I'm like, okay, look, I, if nothing else this year, I've proven to myself that I can train at a 13-minute pace. And when I need to run sub-8 in a 5K, I have no problem doing it. I mean, is it hard? Sure, it's hard. The bottom line is I was doing much harder effort on a day-to-day basis and I wasn't running any faster when it came down to racing. So I think that's kind of a big thing. It's hard to get your head around that though. I think there's a lot of thought that like, I have to, you know, I have to do this every day, just like I'd be in a race. And, you know, there's a lot of focus on no pain, no gain, which is, I'm totally anti no pain, no gain because it doesn't work. And I think when you take a step back and you realize, like, you know, whatever your favorite football team is, do you think they play a game every time they practice? No. You know, they do drills, they work on their technique, they work on little speed things, they work on endurance, they lift weights, they do all these things. And then they do all these things, and then when they're ready to play in, you know, the Super Bowl, they're ready mentally, physically, everything. And it's, it's no different with running. You know, the only really cool thing with running is it's the only sport where you can compete against the best athletes in the world because you're never going to play football with Drew Brees or play golf with Tiger Woods, but you could hypothetically run the New York Marathon with the world record holder. And that's pretty cool. I mean, no other sport really has that, um, has that ability and yeah, you might not consider yourself a competitor, but heck, you're in the same race.

So, you know, we all got the same conditions and circumstances.

Yeah. And that's the other thing is, you know, So don't get too caught up in the conditions and the circumstances because everybody has those conditions and you've got to make yourself resilient for as much as you can within reason. You know, a friend of mine in Minnesota posted on Facebook that she had gone running and it was 5— what was it, 13 degrees and it felt great compared to yesterday when it was -5. I'm like, "That's why you run when it's -5." You know, and it's like people in Minnesota get that because they have to train in the really cold. Like, yeah, when you run in the -5, then 13 feels awesome. And then you've got to like, when you're having a hard day and you get a really hard workout, I try to tell myself, well, I got that one out of the way. I don't have to have it come out on race day. Cause you're going to have good days and you're going to have bad days. It's a numbers game. It's like that with anything. And, you know, hopefully you get them in a, in a workout that you can learn something from. And yeah, you'll have them on race days too. I've, I've had plenty of races where I go, oh my goodness. The bad day came out and there it was. And, you know, all you can do is try to learn something from it though. Cause you know, it's only a race. They're going to have it again next year. You know, can't get too focused on, well, I signed up for this, I got to do it, or I got to get to the next one. It's like, you know, every race they run every year. So once they start it, they very rarely stop doing them. At least, you know, most races that you're kind of be big things. So you, you know, you got to get out of that short term. And I always tell people like, I'm, I'm planning to run when I'm 80. So if I thought short term, I would not. Be there. And it adds so much to my life when I can have it become a de-stressor, not a stressor. When it starts to become a stressor, then, you know, nobody really has time for that because they've got lots of other things to accomplish.

And yeah, what's, um, what's your next race for you is coming up January, right?

So yeah, my next real race is the Carlsbad Marathon, which is actually my first marathon. Was they, they They've now changed the name and changed the course. So this will be my third time running the race. The first time I ran it 20 years ago, it was called the San Diego Marathon. Then I ran it again about 14 years ago and it was called the Carlsbad Marathon. And so I'll be running it again. And, um, you know, it's, it's a nice marathon. It's fairly small, easy to get to. My parents live close by, so it's convenient. It's at sea level, which is awesome because I just don't want to run one at altitude. Altitude if I don't have to. Um, but yeah, that's kind of my next race. Uh, I always do a run on New Year's Day, which I guess will be my technically my next race, but, um, that's fun.

I typically try to do that as well, whatever kind of adventure it might be or whatever fitness level you're in. But what do you end up doing on the first?

So we have a local race called the Rescue Run and it supports our local search and rescue. So I, I run it every year because I always feel I better, if I support the local search and rescue organization in case I'm ever stuck on a mountain somewhere, I will feel better myself that I supported their race. Um, and they do a great job. I mean, you know, when you live in a mountainous area, you know, these are volunteers who, you know, are finding people, mostly people that are getting themselves above, you know, but you know, conditions change, you know, things happen out there. And so, yeah, every year we do this. Um, it's, it's titled Rain, Snow, or 20 Below. And we've had, I've never seen it rain, but I've definitely seen it snow and get very close to 20 below. So hopefully we don't have that. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's always a fun kind of start the year, you know, 5K, 10K. So that's technically my next race, but I, I more or less, you know, more do that to support the community than, than anything else. But yeah, that's kind of what I have planned. And then, you know, we'll see how— I wish I had a little more time for this marathon. I feel like, gosh, I wish I had like a few more months, but I also, again, you gotta look at it like, well, Well, whatever it is, you learn something and then you wanna do another one. You can do another one. And you know, it's not like, you know, you, you're done. Yeah. You know, unless you, you know, decide to be done. But, um, yeah, I'm interested to see how this goes and, and how I do and more, more how I feel. I just wanna finish strong. I really don't have a time goal. Um, you know, my, I'm still working on my aerobic fitness. I mean, my half marathon prediction to a marathon is one thing, but I know that I probably need to be, aerobically fitter to really use that. I've been looking at that Tanda Marathon Predictor, and so I'll be interesting to see if I can, um, somewhere in that range, which I would think I probably will be, but we'll see. It's just, you know, it's all a learning process.

So, yeah. Well, and I think this, as you continue to train this way as well, you should definitely see further improvements because realistically You've only been base building right now for X amount of time. And with the progress that you're already seeing right now, it will be fascinating to see that even further, another 3 or 6 months with base building and then like some, some speed work integrated as well.

So yeah. And honestly, at some level, as long as you're not getting slower every year, you know, you're, you're, you're gaining on a lot of people who either are getting slower or aren't running at all because, you know, that's the biggest challenge is just staying in the game. Absolutely. And so, yeah, I feel very encouraged that I will continue to improve. And if nothing else, I'm enjoying it. You know, I'm not— I could, you know, I used to be very structured at like, I could only run at this time of the morning and I had to have this and that. And now I'm like, oh, it's just like I could just walk if I wanted to. And then usually I go out for a walk. And sometimes that's another thing kind of going back to the cold weather, when it's really miserable, just tell yourself you're going for a walk. Chances are you'll probably start running. But, you know, that's the best way to just get outside and get started is to just do something easy. It's always easier to start something with something easy and then you'll be like out 5, 10 minutes and go, "Okay, I can jog a little bit." And then pretty soon you've done a half an hour, an hour, and you go, "Gosh, I'm glad I talked myself into that." So, that's always the most fun part of it and just, yeah, it's great to continue to see improvements, but just as long as you're having fun, that's the most important thing.

Yeah. Yeah. So you are very active in the Extra Mile Facebook group and in the Marathon PR program group. I see you in both of there, either comment or, or post. What are some other places that people can find out more about you?

Well, I have my own page for my chi running. You know, practice. I try to— I try to put most of my running-related things on Facebook there. My website is Focused Footsteps. And I actually— but I use the Chi Running page. Obviously, it's running, mostly running-related, but I think a lot of these concepts really apply to anything, right? I mean, you know, anything you're going to do mindfully, you're going to do better. And so even if you're not a runner, you find as you get more in tune with your body and more you become mindful at doing things, like, it improves all your quality of your life. So, you know, that's probably where I put most of my running-related things on that page. So if anybody wants to follow it, feel free. I try to be inspirational and, you know, it's, it's, it's, we're all on our own journey and, and we can learn a lot from each other, but you know, you've got to not compare yourself to other people. Yeah. You've gotta find inspiration from people and encourage people, but not to try to say, I should be there because you've gotta start where you're at. If you just try to skip ahead, you're just gonna take 3 steps back, so you didn't accomplish anything. So yeah, that's kind of where I tend to—

I, I will have to say, I love the honesty that you put in several of your posts as well, where you would talk about things that go well, but you are also not afraid to share things that might not go according to plan. And I think that that's a very a good thing.

Well, I'm a big believer in like, you're only going to learn if you fail. So if you don't remember what you failed in, you're probably going to do it again. So sometimes for myself to go back and remember like what went wrong there. And, and, you know, it's, it's sometimes we remember the things that go right a lot better. And, and yeah, things happen that are outside of your control, but how you respond to them is really the key. Again, that's in anything, right? You're going to throw challenges at work and how you respond to them is going to make much more of a difference than whatever the challenge you had to start off with. So when you can take those things and, okay, next time I'm going to make sure not to do that, or I'm going to be more mindful of that. And when you find those, it's like, even when I teach people chi running, when they— some people I can identify right away. I'm like, oh, you know, you need to be like really focused on, you know, reaching for the crown of your head or, you know, keeping your core engaged or whatever it is. But when I find something really early on with somebody, because it's really an area that they can work, I'm like, that is the best thing because you can fix, you know, you've identified something that you can change. Because the hardest thing is actually when you don't know what you can change, right? Like when I was struggling with why is my left-right balance off and I couldn't figure it out, I just was like, well, I don't know what to do because I— but when you can identify an area where, okay, now I know I have this tool and, and I can't— I always tell people you can't come to a workshop and expect to be a Chi Runner the next day. I mean, all I can do is give you some things to think about and give you some tools in your tool belt so that, you know, when something's hurting or you're feeling tired and you can reach into that tool belt and go, oh, that thing, that drill or that exercise or whatever, and that can help you. And then you just keep practicing that. Then that's how you'll eventually improve by, you know, repeating something over and over again. So you have to accept what what, you know, what isn't working. And I honestly look at the heart rate training as like, okay, the fact that I can, the fact that my, I have been able to actually race consistently quite a bit faster than like, if you look at the math predictions and what, you know, uh, they say like if your math pace is this and your 5K pace is this, well shoot, my math pace is like way over here compared to my 5K pace. That's frustrating, but at the same time, I look at it as an opportunity because I'm going, well, that means I have so much more room to improve. You know, it's, it's encouraging from that standpoint. So that's why I'm going to stick with it because I feel like it's, it's, it's already working. You know, it could be working faster. Sure. Yeah. But it's better to be working slowly than not to be working at all or to be going backwards.

So awesome. Thank you very much for sharing all of your insights. I'll make sure to link to the different, to your website and your social channels. Um, your Strava as well. And yeah, hopefully we can, uh, pick up the conversation again further down the line.

Yeah. And thank you for all your encouragement. I really, I mean, I've, it's, it's great to be part of the marathon PR community. I really find that there's so many people of different, you know, different levels and, um, just a lot of great thought into what people are doing and, and just, it's a different approach and. And, you know, it's, it's really interesting to see how people are improving and it's really cool. And so thanks for leading that up because, you know, it's, it's not something that was there 10, 20 years ago.

And so, yeah, it's, it's been a wild journey and I think we're just getting started. I agree. And just seeing how many more people are becoming aware of low heart rate training and not necessarily the no pain, no gain mentality, but looking at some of the alternatives out there as well, uh, through chi running, through low heart rate running, like the combination of things.

It's very exciting to see. Yeah, for sure. If we can finally get rid of that stigma that running is bad for you, that would be awesome.

Exactly. All right, good. Thank you, Amelia. Thank you.

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