Nutrition, Disordered Eating and Exercise Addiction, with Tawnee Gibson from Endurance Planet

What's tricky with endurance sports or any, like, high-level performance or any amateur athlete for that matter who just is trying to get something out of themselves is that we can see a very clear crossover between good athlete traits and traits of those with eating disorders. They all sound like great things, right? Like, they all sound like, well, that's what we want to see more of in athletes. Like, we want to see somebody who's mentally tough. We want to see somebody who's committed and pursuing excellence. And is willing to push through pain. However, all of those things have a direct tie-in with what constitutes somebody suffering greatly from an eating disorder. So it gets really tricky.

Hello, hello, hello.

This is Floris Geerman, I'm your host. Welcome to another episode of The Extra Mileage Show. On this podcast, I interview different guests about ways to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. And on today's episode, I'm interviewing Tawny Prezak Gibson. She is the host of the Endurance Planet podcast, and several of you might already be familiar with her. She's been hosting this for almost 10 years right now. She's an accomplished athlete. She has qualified for the Boston Marathon several times, and she has also qualified qualified for the Ironman 70.3 World Championships. She's a holistic health and endurance sports coach. She's a mother, a multi-sport athlete, and also a writer and speaker. She has a master's degree in exercise science, a bachelor degree in journalism. She's a certified sport nutritionist and a certified strength and conditioning coach.

So definitely a wide variety of experience in her background over there.

Tawny has faced several challenges behind the scenes, like in her own running journey. And so for the last 10 years, she really experienced disordered eating and almost like an obsession and an addiction with working out. So in this podcast, we actually discuss her journey, some of the challenges that she has gone through, and some of the things that— how she overcame it. And also, as a running coach, she experienced several challenges in some of her athletes as well. So we discussed that too. We talk about intermittent fasting, we talk about ketosis, we talk about fast last-minute runs. We talk about different ways of healing and so much more. Before we dive in, I want to let you know that I send out a weekly newsletter for Extramilers where I cover different running tips and different insights on ways to improve your overall health and fitness. And you can subscribe at extramilers.com/subscribe. If you enjoyed this show, please make sure to leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform or subscribe on YouTube. Without further ado, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Tawny Prezak Gibson.

Welcome to the Extra Mile Show, Tawny. I'm very happy to have you over here.

It's an honor. And, you know, I feel like it was super lucky that we had this divine intervention to actually meet in person before started happening. And if you— I don't know if you've told listeners about what we did earlier this year, but that's where you and I first got to meet face to face, and I learned a little bit about you, and I'm like, This guy is insane. He's like a math prodigy. And now to be on your podcast, even if we can't be together, it's still an honor to connect again.

Yeah, no, that was, that was really fun. You set up like a math test, a group, group run for basically a lot of local runners to come out and to meet you at one of the local running tracks. And it was Nathan, one of your audio producers, who actually introduced us. And that was such a fun event. It was really a lot of fun to be able to run a bunch of laps and talk low heart rate training with everyone over there. So that was a great initiative.

It worked out well. I mean, and we were— our original plan was to do another one. I think that one that we did was in January, and then our plan was to do one in April, and then everyone knows how that goes. So yeah, hopefully again one day.

Yeah, absolutely. So I just want to dive in because, uh, I think quite a few people are already familiar with your work through the Endurance Planet podcast. But for, for people who are not that familiar with you yet, I think it might be good to hear a bit of a background from you like about your athletic performance, like over time? Like, I know you have trained towards the Ironman, you have qualified for the Boston Marathon, and, and incredible, like even early on that you were already very passionate about running. Can you tell us a little bit more how that progressed over the years?

Yeah, absolutely. And I know you want to— I'm just going to throw it out there— I know you want to talk a little bit about eating disorders today, so I don't feel like I can tell my story of how I got into endurance sport without that piece because I think it was actually a very pivotal part of my journey into endurance sports. So when I got in, I've been a lifelong athlete, grew up surfing here, Southern California, all that kind of stuff, mountain biking, played volleyball in high school. So I've always been a very athletic person, but never into endurance sports, always just more into like power sports and all that kind of stuff. And then when I was a freshman in college, I unfortunately developed anorexia, you know, and we can talk about how that happened if you'd like. But it was not just one thing. It was probably a lifetime in the making. And coincidingly came the exercise addiction, or which came first, I'm not really sure, but definitely some exercise addiction that was going on there. So even though on the outward sense it looked all fine and dandy, oh, you know, Tawny's the one going to the gym all the time, working out, watching what she eats, duh duh duh. I'd actually gained the freshman 15, and I think that actually was like one of the final triggers that led to an eating disorder and this exercise addiction. And so I just became obsessed with going to the gym and running on the treadmill. Truly, like, I remember I went to San Diego State, so being at that gym and then being at the 24 Hour Fitness around town, all that kind of stuff. And even though I was starting to suffer from an eating disorder, I truly enjoyed running and I was pretty good at it. Like, I— my first 10K that I entered, I think I was on the podium and I'm like, I don't even know what that means, but it sounds cool. And so I really started just kind of pushing it more and more and more. And then it's important— that San Diego piece is important because that is the birthplace of triathlon. So it was probably inevitable that I would somehow get mixed into meeting other triathletes. And it actually happened through a spin class that I was taking. The instructor was a triathlete, and then kind of the rest is history. I thought, like, I had no background in swimming. To this day, swimming is still and forever will be my weakness. But biking, cycling, and running were definitely my strengths. And thankfully for triathlon, that's where you spend most your time and effort. So my graduation present to myself was buying myself a road bike. Did my first triathlon like right around the time I graduated from college. Had a life-changing experience at that triathlon. It was just— it felt like coming home in a way. Like it was just this— I, I— my major was journalism, so I was so far removed from being involved in exercise science or kinesiology or any of that stuff from what I was studying. But when I started training and doing this race, like, it just felt like something clicked to me. And I'm like, this is what I want to spend my life doing in some capacity for the rest of my life. So, you know, the eating disorder stuff's going on in the background. We can talk a little bit about the trend, like how triathlon both helped and hurt me in my recovery from eating.

Yeah. I think that would be an interesting topic to hear more about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean—

So again, You know, and I, I love tying in some of the research on this. So what I'm gonna kinda start off with saying too is not just my personal experience right now, but I think it's important to say that there are so many athletes and not just women but men as well who are dealing with these kinds of things. And what's, what's tricky with endurance sports or any like high-level performance or any amateur athlete for that matter who just is trying to get something out of themselves is that we can see a very clear crossover between good athlete traits and traits of those with eating disorders. And I have this wonderful study that I always draw on. It's over 20 years old at this point, but I think it really nails it as far as behavioral traits and trying to dissect like the difference between what leads to a great athlete and then what is something that somebody with anorexia, bulimia, or any of these eating disorders or disordered patterns are dealing with and the crossover. So like a few of those things include mental toughness, The commitment to training/excessive exercise, the pursuit of excellence and perfectionism, coachability, performance despite pain, and this whole idea of like no pain, no gain. So like reading that list right now, and this again, those variables all come from this study that I'm mentioning. They all sound like great things, right? Like they all sound like, well, that's what we wanna see more of in athletes. Like we wanna see somebody who's mentally tough. We wanna see somebody who's committed and pursuing excellence. And is willing to push through pain. However, all of those things have a direct tie-in with what constitutes somebody suffering greatly from an eating disorder. So it gets really tricky. And it's then, you know, takes us as coaches, as athletes to look inward and see, like, do we have an honest relationship with sport or do we have unhealthy habits that are, you know, influencing our approach to sport? And are we able to separate, like, some of these negative feedbacks that we're putting in, you know, you know, so it just gets— it's— it gets complicated. And so for me, when I started my— when my eating disorder started, it was purely just exercise addiction. And when I found triathlon, I actually thought at the time it was a path to healing for me because for the first time in that whole journey, triathlon felt like a way of healing in the sense that I wanted to now fuel my body to perform. And that was key. Before, it was basically burning calories and seeing how little intake I could get away from a caloric standpoint per day. And it was like this ongoing obsession that led to extreme weight loss and unhealthy, you know, existence. So triathlon was healing in the sense that I started to study sports nutrition and exercise physiology and realize, holy crap, I have to actually fuel to some degree in order to perform. Mm-hmm. However, then another disorder starts where it's basically then I still can't eat without triathlon training. So I still didn't have the ability to comfortably sit down and eat any amount of calories unless I had trained really hard that day. So like if I went out, was, had plans to go out to dinner with friends, for example, my whole day was centered around how can I exercise enough to earn that so I allow myself to eat. And if for some reason that I wasn't able to train or exercise that day, then I would make excuses of why I couldn't eat or probably actually go as far to even cancel plans because I was too afraid for being looked at and wondering, are people wondering like, why is Tawny not eating? Or why is she only eating that piece of lettuce or whatever it is? I know that sounds a little cliché, but it's honestly a bit true. So that's where the relationship with triathlon was good, yet not purely innocent. And I thankfully did not have a level of eating disorder that led me to have to be in any inpatient hospitalization or outpatient, you know, none of that. I was very committed to my healing and I actually made a relatively quick recovery from the worst of it. But those behaviors then stayed, those unhealthy habits, those traits, the mix of like what goes into an eating disorder and what goes into a good athlete. You know, it wasn't innocent and it stayed with me for nearly a decade. And so— and we can get to this point, too, because I truly feel I'm one of the few people who have been able to make a full recovery and not just physically, but mentally from my eating disorder. And that's— I'm about 5 years into that at this point. Like 2015 was a big year for me. And keep in mind, I graduated from college and did that first triathlon in 2007. So you can see that span, like it was a long time. And so on one hand, these patterns that I'm talking about, this like this underlying Type A-ness, perfectionism, this committedness, you know, for example, like in this study, if you look at what they're talking about, they talk about an individual, an athlete is able to persist despite circumstances or consequences and is uncompromisingly disciplined. But yet that's also something that is a negative thing for someone with an eating disorder because they can't learn to just be gentle with themselves and like say it's okay not to have to do all the things. Things.

It is so, so common, right, for athletes to beat themselves up like that.

It, it really seems to be the case. And like, here's, here's the part that I find so fascinating about your story is that not only have you gone through this yourself and you have, you have dealt with this for many years, but you're also a coach and you have experienced with different athletes themselves over time as well. Like, some of the challenges that they might experience with nutrition. And so, so you don't only look at it from your own perspective, you also look at it from another athlete's perspective sometimes as well. Like, the part that I'm curious about is, so over the years you started to realize that you had certain issues with disordered eating. Like, what was it that like changed your approach over time? Or what was it that, that was part of this recovery journey for you?

Yeah, exactly. Because so this actually can tie in Phil Maffetone a little bit. I know you have had him on your show several times and he honestly is like my godson. He is and he's been one of my biggest mentors in all of this. And I'm just so grateful for his existence and what he's done, his life work and everything. But really what started happening was that when you're pushing your body to those extremes and not taking care of it, you can only last for so long. Like you will burn out more quickly than you need to. And so, sure, I qualify for 70.3 World Championships. I got to Boston. You know, I did all these things, but it was a short, relatively short-lived athletic career. Like, as far as like my peaking in sport, it could have been much longer, I'm sure, but my body just couldn't keep up with the stress burden that I was putting on it. Like, my overall stress balance was way out of whack. So then you start to see the pieces unraveling a little bit. First, it kind of starts in like mood disturbances. Like, I would have these like epic breakdowns if I couldn't like go— you know, like El Morro Trail area. Like if I couldn't do my regular loop out there, if I just felt too tired, like I would just break down rather than just give myself a day off. Like I would just— it would be the end of the world to me kind of thing. And then you start to see it manifest more physiologically where my gut health was horrible. And thankfully women have this indicator. Men have a similar indicator but not necessarily as directly measurable as women do. But I had amenorrhea for 10 years. I didn't have a period for 10 years, which is horrible. And I don't— I've forgiven myself for that. I don't regret it. Thankfully, I've recovered well and I'm very on top of my health and know that things are operating very well. You know, as far as I know at this point, no long-term ramifications. But it's still like that eventually started to eat away at me, my like dirty little secret, right? Like especially as I was kind of up and coming with Endurance Planet and being this like voice who was an expert in all these things, yet like here I am like completely dysfunctional. And so then eventually like the race performance starts to tank. So then you like— and Phil talks about this a lot actually, where usually right before an athlete like kind of implodes, they'll have some of their best performances. Like they'll be so fit but unhealthy, and then literally like you— it's like you have PR at a race, and then the next thing is a DNF, and then it just all unravels. And that's That's pretty much how it went for me one year. And I realized like I couldn't just like grit it out any longer. I had to start to like really address what the heck was going on mentally, physically. And that just completely shifted, you know, my whole approach to training. And then it completely shifted my whole career and how I wanted to work with athletes. You know, I mentioned that my, my degree was in journalism. I later went on and got a master's degree in exercise physiology and kinesiology with emphasis in strength and conditioning. So, you know, I went back to school in order to do this the right way, I guess, and be— have a formal education in the field. And, you know, up for, you know, a handful of years, I was just coaching athletes more, you know, traditionally, for lack of a better word. And then it's transitioned now with my own health journey and realizing I'm not— this is what I'm— the story I'm sharing is absolutely not an isolated event. This is way more common and a lot of people are silently suffering, too scared. They have no one to talk to. And so I decided after years of being silent about it to just come out and start talking about what I had been through. And it really started kind of like opening this safe place for other people to then communicate with me. And, and then, yeah, like that, that health coaching side then took on that next chapter of my career.

What, what's so like, there's, there's a variety of different disordered eating patterns out there. Can you talk a little bit more about this? Because it's not just anorexia or bulimia, it is also people being overly obsessed with calorie intake. It is people doing intermittent fasting who shouldn't be doing intermittent fasting, or like whether that is for a shorter period or for extended periods of time. Can you talk a little bit more about some of these differences that you see out there?

It's such a good point because I've had to even kind of put like a disclaimer on some of the shows that we do, you know, if we've talked about intermittent fasting or keto or, you know, cle— clean eating and only buying organic and stuff because you're giving— you're breeding this whole new kind of eating disorder, kind of this umbrella term of orthorexia. So I think it can really then start to take on its own unique, you know, traits in each person depending on like what they sort of start fixating on. So really, like, anorexia and bulimia are some of the worst and they're relatively like clear, like diagnosable conditions. But now we have this like spectrum of disordered eating patterns where you're not clinically diagnosed as somebody with anorexia or bulimia, but you're subclinically suffering from some unhealthy relationship with food, body, and exercise essentially. And you're fixated on these unhealthy habits. You're fixated on this idea of control, the need for control, perfectionism in your diet. You can't waver from X, Y, Z. You know, again, like going back to that idea of like not going out to dinner with friends, like I hear this from people who are suffering from this idea of orthorexia, like where they will cancel dinner plans if they're not comfortable at that restaurant because that restaurant doesn't serve organic food or they only cook with canola oil and they don't cook with olive oil. And that's like a deal breaker for them. So I think to me then the question is like, it's okay for us to talk about the elements that, you know, consist of a healthy diet and approach to like nutrient timing or like how something like intermittent fasting can apply or when Going low-carb might make sense, but the key is not being overly rigid about it where it controls your whole life really. And so I think that's where people have to like dive inward in their own journeys because this is unique to each person. Like we can't— that's where sometimes I even struggle with my podcast because it's like if we're talking about keto or something, I like— I'm like, "But this isn't for everyone," or something. You know, it's like you may hear apply for this person right here, but you literally could be the opposite situation where I'd recommend literally something 180 degrees different. And so I think we ought to upon ourselves to dive inward and ask ourselves some hard questions of are we honoring our body's true needs? And often when you find disordered patterns, if you're real, you know, deep down, if you're really being honest and true with yourself, you've veered away from serving your best well-being like you are. In an unhealthy pattern. You're stuck in this mindset that you can't break free from. You feel this like level of guilt and shame because you know that like you're not honoring your, your, your true needs. Like you're just not being honest with yourself in a way. And so, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a hard thing to define because I think it manifests so differently in people. And these days, especially when You have one doctor over here saying intermittent fasting is the best thing ever. And this other doctor saying, like, don't ever touch that with a 10-foot pole. It's like, what am I supposed to think? But then meanwhile, I'm also not supposed to eat too much because I don't have high blood sugar and it can be overwhelming. So I completely empathize that, like, also the information and the input that we're getting these days is a bit overwhelming. And we're like now, like, completely frozen when we open the refrigerator. Like, what the heck do we even do?

Right.

100%.

I see it every single day between people going eating only meat to people going vegetarian or vegan. And yeah, high fat, low carbs to, to like eating many carbs. And, and left and right, I see so many conflicting messages over there. Yet at the other hand, also realizing that there's no one-size-fits-all approach to what works for one athlete doesn't necessarily work for another athlete.

So, yeah. So this is where I think it's really fun to work with athletes to figure out what they need. And this is where I think when my coaching career and even my, my approach to my own health took a next level step was when how do we figure all these answers out for the unique individual who wants to pursue excellence in sport and do so, like, if you're truly being honest with yourself and wanna do this the right way, We look at your internal state of well-being right now. We do a gamut of testing. We see what's going on. We see how you're functioning from a hormonal standpoint. How is your gut health? You know, how is your stress balance? How's your HPA axis function? You know, how's your immune function? Are you getting sick all the time? Are you getting injured and broken down all the time? Like, if you were to see my questionnaire that I send athletes, whether through consulting or full-time coaching, like, it's incredibly extensive. And it's because I'm trying to get a good picture of where they're at right now. And then I don't— I don't buy into one true diet or one true way. I want to meet people where they're at. And a huge percentage of that equation is also starting with the mental side of like what's going to be comfortable and make them like build habits that are going to be lasting for success, but also taking into consideration what their health needs are. And that really, we can start to transition to that if you want is like what are the common things I see and like what, you know, then how do I sort of apply like a good like eating plan or exercise plan or whatever it is to that? Because that's really I think the answer if you're trying to weed through all this information we have out there. Fine. It's all, you know, there's a study to support anything right now. So you, you know, like there's a lot of stuff out.

Let's dive, let's dive in. Like I think this is very interesting and I think it applies to many different athletes out there. And you just touch on it, so let's keep going.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I'm not a doctor. I don't claim to be a doctor. I'm, you know, wellness advocate. I'm a health coach. I'm in, you know, I have my master's in exercise science degree. So I'm not trying to sit here and replace a doctor but rather like work with a doctor, but I think it's important to have blood work done depending on symptoms like say someone has amenorrhea or has the symptoms of low testosterone from a male standpoint or or from a female standpoint has, you know, maybe she has a period but she has signs of hormonal imbalance, then it's important to understand literally functionally like hormonally what's going on. What are the val— like what are the numbers? Like what are the numbers showing us and what are the biomarkers showing us? And so there's a couple tests like, you know, you can get blood work either through your practitioner or you can get it through one of these third parties that are gonna have like these nice little packages that they just have every— figured out everything for you and you just pay a fee and do that.

And then what—

what one of those is the— the InsideTracker that I've heard you talk about a few times, correct?

They're great because they're, they're one of the few companies out there that are very oriented toward athletes and performance. So I actually, as we're recording this, I just released a show today on my own podcast, Endurance Planet, on my holistic performance nutrition series, talking about my own blood test results. And one of the features that InsideTracker has these days is something called your InnerAge 2.0, which basically their team of experts have devised like what are like the top biomarkers that indicate longevity. And they're different for men and women. And then you basically through your own blood tests and then some other variables get an idea of what your internal age is. So we have our biological age, like when the year we were born and all that. But then they give you a number for your internal age to show that if, you know, things are going well, hopefully like your inner age should be well below your biological age. And so they're doing all these fun, like, creative things with algorithms and just, like, looking into the research more to help give athletes and people in general, like, a better picture of, like, what their health is from different, like, standpoints. Like, for me, for example, I'm 35 and a half and my inner age was 31 and a half. So, like, I'm technically doing pretty good if I'm, like, only 31 on the inside still. And so, you know, if we get these tests done and I see somebody, maybe they didn't realize— you know, female— I take the female athlete for example. She's in a postmenopausal pain range of progesterone and estrogen with low DHA and either skyrocketing or completely tanked cortisol levels, but she's like saying how she wants to do an Ironman in 3 months. You know, we're gonna have to have a serious conversation about resetting goals. And not to say that that Ironman can't happen, but let's talk about nourishing your body because it's completely depleted right now. And that's an example where in never in a million years would I recommend keto or intermittent fasting or truly like quite frankly any special diet. Like you just— we just need to nourish your body again and yes, gear toward healthy foods, but honestly like if we need to just build— build the cholesterol levels, build, you know, which are precursors to hormone or help make hormones, like we just need you to get to eat more and get comfortable with that. So then I really like— those conversations become a lot about mental well-being and like what's going on in somebody's life, because there's a lot of blocks we put up that keep us from doing that despite how obvious it seems, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And I think what you're touching on right there is such an important point that even for myself sometimes and for some other people around me, I've seen the part of like, does it make sense to do intermittent fasting? Like, because left and right you hear so many people say, like, the whole hype about intermittent fasting, like, it's almost like, yeah, you— this is the end-all be-all answer to live long and happy and all this. Yeah. Yet if your body is not properly functioning, if your body is not properly digesting food, Maybe at this point that is not the right call. Maybe you just have to heal your body first, and whether intermittent fasting is going to do that for you, if that's going to add additional stress on your body, like, don't assume that ketosis is absolutely right for everyone. Don't assume that intermittent fasting right away is right for everyone. And I think that's why that individualized approach is indeed very important.

Yeah, with intermittent fasting, you know, I'll take myself for example. Like you guys have learned a little bit about me on this show so far and I might, you know, I'm doing all these functional tests for myself. I've kind of always presented with chronically high cortisol in the morning. So my cortisol is like off the charts. I'm not the type of person who needs to be drinking coffee in the morning. Yet what I used to do was go out first thing in the morning and do a fasted run and then come back still on an empty stomach, start drinking coffee and then eventually get around to eating because There was a time there when I was kind of fed this whole idea that like having an inner— like fasting 12 nights or for at least 12 hours overnight, maybe pushing that a little bit more and then doing a run on empty will help develop all this metabolic efficiency and ability to burn fat for fuel. And it all seems kind of genuine and fun and everything until you realize like you're screwing up your health. And I've made a commitment to myself in years since where I refuse to run fasted in the morning. I refuse to drink coffee on an empty stomach even. Like, I will eat food first. You know, I still like to work out in the morning, but I find that for me, like, if I'm looking at, like, my circadian rhythm and just my natural circadian rhythm, it's best for me to, like, work out in the afternoons when my cortisol is a little bit more balanced out rather than pushing that cortisol up even more in the morning. And that's a presentation I see a lot of, again, going back to, you know, endurance athletes and especially a lot of my female clients. They also have, you know, often some gut issues. So then there's this whole convoluted thing where they're fasting before their runs because if they eat before, their stomach's gonna hurt. And so then they're screwing up their— like, I think that thing often starts innocently enough where they've purposely not eaten to avoid some gut distress during their run. And it's on me if they hire me to then dive into what's going on in your gut because we can't just have you fast forever. Like, we can't just fast over every run. You know, occasionally if you do a 3-mile run fasted, like, fine, that's not the end of the world. But if you're doing 7 days of running and sometimes even double days and every single one of those runs is fasted, that's a fast track to really damaging your well-being. So then we have to dive into gut health. And that is just, you know, such a tough one for athletes because we're all susceptible to our gut health getting screwed up through endurance training because technically none of us who are actually training for, you know, pursuing a higher level of fitness are giving ourselves enough time to allow our guts to recover. It would take us, like, I don't know, 48, 72 hours for our gut to fully recover just from one bout of exercise. And find me somebody who's taking 3 days off after every run. Like, it just doesn't exist, right?

Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. So, so you have worked with many different athletes over the years. Like, what are some nutritional deficiencies that you often come across in some of the, athletes you work with?

Nutritional deficiencies, I'd say the number one is protein, actually. And really, truly more just athletes not fueling well enough for what their actual, like, caloric expenditure is.

So as far as for calorie intake, just—

yeah, yeah. And I might be biased because I do tend to get the client who is, you know, suffering from low hormones or, you know, the stress balance is off. So I'm a bit biased probably in my analysis here and seeing that there, you know, I get my fair share of athletes who are just not fueling well enough. And nutritionally wise, then, you know, protein is a big one. Like it— the research shows us that we can safely consume up to 2 grams per kilogram of body weight. And if you actually do the math on that for yourself, like that's a lot of protein. Like that's actually hard for me. And I'm, I'm thinking about these things all the time, and it's still hard for me to, like, get that amount of protein in on a regular basis. Or, you know, another way to look at it is about 1 gram per pound of body weight. Like, that's, that's a lot of protein. And most people are finding it hard to get that amount in. And then you add these days a lot of diets that are trendy that are restrictive of one food group or type of food, you know, like whether it's fear of carbs to the point where now you're not even eating fruit because you're afraid of that, or, you know, you're vegan, um, yet, you know, you have B12 deficiency and you're just like unwilling to at least like give in a little bit, or, you know, all different sorts of equations on how that works. Um, as far as like things like vitamin D or B12 or iron, I, I see all that for sure, but what I try to stay away from doing is just isolating out one biomarker because I like to look at it in the context of the full picture of the person. So sometimes somebody's ferritin is so low, it's like 10 or something, and we do need to just focus on what's causing their anemia and their inability to absorb iron from food even if they are eating meat. And that is something that, you know, again ties back even to the gut health thing. When we see some of these deficiencies, it's not always that somebody's not eating those foods. It often is, but not always. I know quite a few athletes who are really trying hard to have a good well-rounded diet yet are falling short and deficient in some way, and that 100% ties back to some sort of dysfunction in the stomach, in the gut, and then it's about going down that huge rabbit hole because this is not just something you fix over the weekend and figure out what's going on and pursuing healing of the gut. And that's a tough one. Like, that one took me years for my own health. I've had it all, I feel like. I literally screwed myself up. I was my own worst and best client at the same time. I was the worst because I was just a wreck, but also completely committed to healing.

But at least you went through that experience. At least you fully understand what it's like.

Yeah. Yeah. It's good because I then ended up gaining a lot of colleagues and working with a lot of functional doctors, medical doctors myself. And that was, you know, very helpful in understanding these things more. And, you know, since— and then diving into more of the research and taking classes and things like that to then say, like, I, again, know this is not a unique condition to me. Like, let's figure out how to create more robust guts— gut health for athletes so they don't fall victim to, you know, these nutrient deficiencies.

So, so if you look at your overall approach to training in the early days when you were in your early 20s and you were going no pain, no gain, pedal to the metal all the time, and you look at the later years of training?

How has that changed over time? Yeah, I had a feeling you'd ask me something like that. And I would have this memory this morning that I hadn't really thought about in a long time. But here's a perfect example of my rigidity and my need for control and this like perfect training plan. I had like, I had this like thing in my head where I had to have 8 hours of training accumulated by Friday, like Monday through Friday, like it was like I couldn't feel good about myself unless I hit Friday and had already hit 8 hours of training and assuming I'd probably get another 4 or 5 hours of training on Saturday and Sunday to get myself at least 12 hours for the week. And yes, I would schedule in rest weeks where I would allow like myself to lift that a bit and decrease volume and intensity. But if it was an on week, like come hell or high water, that's what I had to do. And I wouldn't budge, even through injury, through whatever. Like, I just would say, like, that's how it has to be, otherwise I'm not going to be good. And then it's just this relentless, like, pursuit of athletic performance or perfection on so many different levels that you just never can give yourself a break. And then, but what you're doing in this process is you're not listening to your body, you're not listening to your feelings, your emotions, you're not honoring what your body's trying to tell you. So like, that's how I trained. And I think you can get away with it for a while. Like, you can get some good performance out of that because you're, you're doing all the things that makes for good endurance performance in that sense.

In the short term.

Yeah, in the short term, right? Like we talked about. So what's shifted since is that I'm so loose. And as much as I'd love to just be this free spirit hippie person, I'm not. But I am much more relaxed on my approach to training, you know, especially after having gone through being pregnant, having a daughter. Like, that was a huge turning point for me. I ballooned up to 180 pounds and I loved it. Like, I just embraced all the changes. I was not afraid of it. It was like awesome and I just felt so great and I laughed at myself when I would hobble around 2 laps around a track at like a 12-minute pace and it just was like, you know, this big old belly. And, and ever since then, like, you know, it's just we're all in a unique season, like we're— and the seasons change. And the best thing we can do is just kind of like honor what our body needs in whatever season we're in. And that's kind of my approach now. And that includes your mind too, not just even your body, what your body needs, but what does your mind need, like from a spiritual sense to like feel full and satisfied because like, I was depleted back then of so many things and just like running thin all the time and always on the verge of like a breakdown because I was just like, so overly like spread thin in so many areas. And now it's just like, I want to feel good all the time. And so if my training mileage is like, meh, then You know, I can be— I can celebrate the small victories, um, and just get excited about little things, like the micro things, the day-to-day things, rather than getting overly wrapped up in like a big picture of like, oh my God, but what if I can never run a marathon again because I'll never lose the baby weight? Like, never once was on my mind, period.

Not, not even. Yeah, wow. What— I feel we have so many things in common because is even that part there of, of putting in high training mileage and truly like pushing it to the limit to some extent. Yet after a while, other things come into your life as well and other priorities start happening and you just have to make choices like what is more important? Is it spending more time with your daughter? And for me as well with my kids, or is it putting in another long run? Or putting it on. And at some point, like, yeah, it becomes quite clear and obvious what some of those priorities are, especially if there's just a lot of other things going on in your life. And it's great if you can, if you have the ability to combine it all. But real life is often happening. And whereas even for myself, I had to put running as a second or third priority and put some of these other things in front of it.

Absolutely. I've had athletes, let me just say, like, because I'm the kind of coach like Phil where I want to coach myself out of a job. But in that equation, like, I've had several instances throughout my career where with an athlete, we've mutually decided that it's just not the best time for them to continue training because they have 30 life things and an intense job. You know, now these days you throw COVID into the picture and parents homeschooling everywhere, and it's okay to allow yourself to say, you know, maybe we just have to put that goal on the shelf for a while. Like, people are so reluctant to do that right now. But like, honoring our well-being in that sense is just so important. So I would urge anybody, don't feel that we— you need to prolong this, like, no pain, no gain, I have to do it come hell or high water. Like, it's okay to take a step back. And you know what, those races, even though they're not there right now, they're eventually going to be there for us again.

Yeah. So well said right there.

Absolutely.

I wanna pivot for a little bit to the Endurance Planet podcast because currently, like, you're episode 42 of the Extra Mileage Show, and I just think there's a lot of different similarities between past guests that I've had on the show. For example, the patience, the consistency in training, truly finding ways to have fun in your workouts. And then also many guests find it beneficial to write in a journal or just keep a journal online, whether it's in Strava or in another source. Do you have any high-level learnings or takeaways from all of your years of hosting the Endurance Planet podcast?

Yeah, absolutely. I think number one would be enjoy the process. Focus on the process. Don't be about outcomes. As soon as we start shifting our mindset into what the result is going to be or how we're going to be ranked at the finish line, that's where things go wrong. You know, and be okay with potentially failing in the pursuit of your goal. It's the athletes who are not afraid of failure that actually end up doing better. It's the athletes who are afraid of failure who subconsciously kind of mess up their chances, mess up their potential. So focusing on— and of course, that, you know, very much ties into outcomes failure and fear of it. So those of us— and you see this if you really were to dissect some of the athletes in any sport who are really honing in on their skill and at the top of their game, like, I think they're the ones who are really good at this mental process or mental, you know, understanding of enjoying and focusing on the process.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, besides that, do you feel that there are any other key— like, I mean, you have, you have how many years of podcasts have you done now with Endurance Plan?

Oh yeah, you know what, we're 10 years in January. So yeah, 2011, Lucio and I teamed up for Ask the Coaches, and it's history ever since then. And I literally cannot even tell you how many hundreds and hundreds of shows I've recorded at this point. Um, let's see, so Oh gosh, I'm kind of like drawing a blank right now, but I think that also, you know, having a good team around you is important. I think whether or not you choose to be coached is something, but making sure there's support in your system, like your, your, your tribe, um, whether family members, friends, or whatever, uh, I think that this is an important thing because even though we're talking so much about solo endeavors and all of these endurance races and endurance events, they're not just about you, the person. Like, there's so many other people involved in making it happen. And I think like on like maybe some— a small example of that is when we've come together and done Ragnar together with our Endurance Planet team and seen Lucho and seen all, you know, our fans and people that are somehow involved with the podcast coming together. And even though we're all off in different parts of the world, like doing things, We come together and just have this epic time together. And it's just so important to have your support system around you to help you and maybe even sometimes to call you out if they see you doing something that's probably not serving you.

Yeah, having honest friends or support system right there is such an important one as well.

Yeah. And this day, you know, even with COVID era, two of my athletes, they're like obsessed with Zwift. And so they're doing all these like team time trials and interacting with people. So even if we're living in a weird time right now, I think it's still 100% possible to interact with fellow athletes and get that sort of uplifting feeling that you get from having a tribe. And you've even seen it since I've been around in this sport, like the rise of triathlon teams. I think people are truly just craving those people that they can share these experiences with and find that common ground together. And I think that's a huge part of it. It keeps it fun.

It keeps it fresh. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about van life for a little bit because I think this is such a fascinating topic to dive into. Several months ago, you moved out of your place in Laguna Beach into a van to travel around with your husband, John, and with your daughter, Cora.

What made you decide to do this? This idea is a long time in the making. I actually— so John and I have lived in Laguna Beach for like 10 years or so, or I moved there and then John quickly followed when we met. Um, and it's paradise, right? Like, who doesn't love this amazing little beach town? Yet there was just this piece of me that felt like this urge to travel, and not just like go to Italy for a week, but like actually like experience different areas outside of what I've known, just being a beach girl my whole life. And I hate to say it, but I was just even getting kind of bored of like running my same and don't get me wrong, gorgeous little loops around Laguna Beach. But I was like, gosh, I just like want to experience something new. Even some like field of corn in the Midwest would like be more interesting than this to me right now because at least it'd be different. And it was also around the time when social media stuff was getting a little bit more popular, and I just saw these people like living in a van. I'm like, we could do that. We both, you know, thankfully John and I both work for ourselves. He's a, um, a business lawyer and he doesn't do litigation anymore, so he can talk to all his clients remotely. Um, and so I'm like, we could technically do this. Like, we have already the job situation set up. And literally January 2018, we bought a van. So like, it was— I, as soon as I mentioned it to John, he was 100% on board. Um, and so we actually did the— we did our build of our van. We bought a cargo Mercedes van. Um, it was just a shell, not even any windows. And over the course of 2018, we got the build dialed in, uh, and started kind of— we did some bigger trips that fall 2018. Then we had Cora in 2019. So yes, I did travel while pregnant up until my third trimester, and that was pretty intense. And then we took a little break when Cora was an infant, and with the idea that we would get into it full-time with her. I was actually really reluctant to get into it full-time because I just thought it was going to be a disaster. But we did this like summer trip, a quick little trip up up to camping in Oregon this year, and Cora loved it. Like, she wasn't walking yet, but she just— like, I could tell she just really enjoyed the vibe. And John and I were just— we're like, we, we looked at each other and we're like, it's time. And our lease was going to be up, and we— so we had the chance to either renew or, um, you know, say goodbye. And we chose to say goodbye. And honestly, like, it's been the best decision, but also one of the difficult things we've ever done because now Cora is walking and she's a toddler and she's like, she can't sit still for 2 seconds. We eliminated all child care, so we're just in these remote places by ourselves. Our van is built so it's completely self-sustainable. We run off solar power, we have a shower, we have a toilet in there. Um, we could literally be off the grid for a number of days. Uh, you know, we have a refrigerator, we have a 3-burner stove because I'm such the chef. I'm like, I need to be able to have a good place to cook. Truck. We have it all in there. We have a great bed. It's actually almost the size of a king bed, and Cora co-sleeps with us in there. And it's been, you know, as we were talking about running and like kind of how my mindset has shifted about it over the years, like it used to be about logging the miles, right? Like getting to that 8-hour mark a week or whatever it was. And these days it's like we're traveling all these places, I'm running all these new places, and especially now that we've kind of figured out our routine, so I'm actually have space to go out for runs again. And I just run with gratitude these days. Like, you know, we were in Bryce National Park and then Zion, and we kind of decided to be more on the outskirts because we didn't want to be in the mix of where all the crowds were. And, you know, I'm having these runs by myself out there, and I'm just like, I can't believe I'm doing this right now. Like, this is just incredible. And, you know, and it's— I wanted to share, I knew you were gonna ask me about van life, and A lot of people will look at this on Instagram or something and just think like, oh gosh, I would dream to do this. This is my fantasy. What a glamorous lifestyle. And no, it's not. Let me just say it's not glamorous. You have to get very comfortable with being with your people in a very small space all the time. And everything— it's like camping. Like, everything takes longer. And one thing I wanted to share with you guys and your audience I keep going back to this. I went to this meditation retreat a couple of years ago and it was out in Colorado at the Shambhala Mountain Center. It was a week-long retreat and it was life-changing for me from the meditation standpoint. But what I had no idea was going to be part of it because I just didn't read the fine print and getting myself into it was that they had every meal. We had to do this special, the special style of mindful eating called Orioki.

Have you ever heard of it? I've heard of it, but I've never done it.

Okay, so it's called Orioki. It has roots in Zen Buddhism that was eventually carried over west, and basically it's to promote this synchronicity of mind and body. And it's absolutely like, if you're looking at this, especially from like a lot of us like Western people who are just like looking to get like things done quickly and efficiently and like don't bother with, you know, little things that make no sense, so you would look at this and you would think it's absolutely absolutely insane. It's this whole eating style where you have your little group of like 5 or 6 or something that you sit with and in this retreat then there's all these little groups kind of scattered around the floor and yes, you sit on the floor and then you have your set and it's a set of bowls, napkins, and utensils. And it's just incredibly meticulous process that you have to learn that we all had to learn, you know, in a couple days and then do it every single meal where you have to unfold each thing at the right order and then do blah, blah, blah. Like literally it, I don't have it memorized at this point, but we all had it memorized at some point and it just takes forever. And so you're sitting here at first in this meditation retreat, you're like, why are we doing this? Can I just grab a bowl and a spoon and like get my freaking meal please? Like seriously, like this is dumb. Like there's literally no point to do this. But then if you're looking at it in the context of this meditation retreat and like being more mindful, it starts to click. You're like, Wow, I'm actually having like this experience where I'm fully present with my meal, with this whole— this whole process of laying out my dishware and everything. And sure, it takes a long time, but it's just— it's literally like one of the most like present mindful practices I've ever had. And yes, it takes forever. And then the kicker is, is like You, you're served food and you have to tell the server how much you want knowing that you have to eat all of it. Because if you do not eat all of it at the end of the meal, you don't go wash your dish. Everybody gets a bowl of water in your little group and then you all share the water to clean your bowls and then put them away. So if you can't have leftover food in there because it'll just create a giant mess. So it's also a mindful practice in thinking about like, how much does my body need right now to eat? And how much do I want in my bowl? So long story short, like, it's, it's this just very, very meticulous, long process. It combines this idea of like mindfulness, presence, like no waste, you know, community, all these things. And often when I'm about at my wit's end in van life because things are just taking forever, I come back to that, this Orioki, and I'm like, okay, slow down. Yeah, slow down, enjoy the process. There's so much about van life that I think goes against the grain of like my being, and that it just takes forever. But it's been one of the best like life lessons for me to just truly slow down, take a deep breath, like go through the process, enjoy the simplicity of it. Because even though things take a long time, it's all just so simple, you know. And, and so we're just kind of doing that right now, and we're just sort of doing things differently and not necessarily, you know, feeling like we have to fit into the societal norms right now. And with the COVID theme, you know, we're doing this a lot more off the grid, away from, you know, densely populated areas and stuff. So there's a lot of time in nature, which has been really good for our souls.

I can only— I can only imagine. I've never done one of the multi-day meditation retreats. I've been meditating daily for several years and several of my friends have shared their experiences of multi-day meditation retreats and how much of a positive impact it made on them. And even hearing you say this again, it's definitely something that I would still like to do one day.

It's easy. I mean, really, you know, a week long. Unfortunately, where I just— when I found out, unfortunately, they were affected by some of the fires over in Colorado. It's devastating what this country has been through with fires this year and previous years. But I think these things, I would urge, I know everybody's got families and we got busyness, but also setting aside time for yourself. And that's something I've recently had to really get real with in van life too, is that I was still kind of working at full capacity when we started and we eliminated childcare that we had prior to this. We were doing all these random chores that are involved in van life. And I realized that my self-care was being neglected. And John and I had like a long talk of having to sit down and just kind of reevaluate like what was on each of our plates to make sure that each of us were having time and space to take care of our own needs. And I think that's a huge part of then even tying back to the athletic equation. Like, it's— as much as people like to think that going out and running is a great stress relief, It's technically not from a physiological standpoint. Like, it is an added stress. So having something else in your life that can at least offset that and make sure that you're honoring your self-care is important. And that's, you know, again, a lesson I've learned the hard way. So, you know, my ego wants to be able to do it all right now. I know that I'm limited. And keeping a little tiny space of time carved out for myself is important. So if you're thinking about a meditation retreat, again, unfortunately, I don't think any are probably happening right now.. But when they eventually do again, I, I really think you learn a lot about yourself. And, and what I like to do, I don't meditate, meditate as much these days. I'm, I've kind of explored more Stoic philosophy, which is a bit similar in the sense that, and it's, but yet instead of having to meditate all the time, you kind of just carry that into throughout the day.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I've been I've been a huge fan of Ryan Holiday and I subscribe to The Daily Dad and several of his books and blog posts that he has written. There's so much to learn over there, absolutely. Recently, you lost your phone and you decided not to get a new phone for probably about 10 weeks, I believe it was. Then I texted you and all of a sudden, I got a text back, so I knew you had your phone back again, which is great.

How was that, not having a phone for 10 weeks even though you were so connected always? Oh my gosh, yeah, it was— it's so funny to be talking about this on a podcast because like in my own little nothing life, it's like, why does it matter? But I think it is an important thing to think about because how addicted and, uh, you know, um, how much we're reliant on these little devices. And especially in the context of van life where we're not connected to Wi-Fi, so I can't even just necessarily open up my computer and have Wi-Fi streaming to get me connected. I'd have to tether off Jon's phone and we have this like funny story. I'm not gonna go into too much, but his phone is super old because he likes the stupid small one, and it's on the verge of dying. So once mine died, his was like hanging on by a thread, and we're like, how is this possible in 2020 where we find ourselves in this position with your phone about to die, mine dead? I wanted to get it fixed, but due to— and due to just our remoteness, it was literally impossible to get in to get it fixed. And once we did finally find a place that we could get into safely, Uh, it was gone. It was a goner. And I was just kind of like, you know what, I literally wasn't upset about it. I think the thing I was most upset about was missing out on all the pictures I probably would have taken of, you know, Cora and all these like places we were visiting. But I felt like it was a perfect opportunity, especially because van life got off to a pretty like aggressively paced start for us this time. Um, I'm like, I don't need it. Like, I can just now focus even more on being present with my family. And explore what it's like just to kind of be disconnected right now. And I wasn't even really looking forward to getting a new phone that much. Like, I could have pushed that easily another month or two. Um, I'll admit, like, like most people, like, I easily get sucked into scrolling on social media, and I have to watch myself. And I don't necessarily put a timer on myself, but like, I try to like step away from it. And especially when we do these drives or something, it's like, I don't want to just sit there on my phone and like scroll through social media for like 3 hours. So it was a welcome break. And I think it, it really truly— the bottom line of it is that you realize how much you've become reliant on that phone and how much easier it is to be present with your family without it, and how we all probably could use a little bit more of that at this point. And especially with like, you know, the, the climate in the world right now with so much going on and just so much like updated news every 2 seconds. Like, it was so great. I don't really follow a lot of news because I just, I can't put myself, I just can't. And but still, to even have it completely like out of my control where it wasn't even an option was just like really refreshing, quite frankly.

Well, that, that right there, that you don't even have the option, I think it's such a key one. And that's why even on purpose, sometimes I leave the phone at home. Even if we leave the house sometimes for a block of 4 or 6 hours, I leave it at home because I do notice because when I have it in my pocket, you just tend to grab it sometimes. And then the photographer inside of me comes out again with every opportunity versus just actually totally being present and enjoying it.

Yeah. And we travel with this great Canon camera. I'm no photographer by any means, but I finally, once the phone was dead, I was like, John and I took a lesson about a year or so in photography, hired an instructor, and I'm like, I just kind of gotten lazy with that because I could just use my phone. And so it was also kind of this moment of like, you know, let's like challenge my brain a little bit and like see what I can do with the actual real camera and like play with an f-stop and the ISO settings and all these things. So I think it also— it was like a little bit of this extra like brain-boosting activities that I brought back into my life a little bit more. The downside was now like sometimes in van life, you know, I'm the navigator and Jon's the driver most like, and usually I'm the one like, you know, getting directions or helping or whatever. And to eliminate that phone caused a little bit of complications here and there, but minor at best, thankfully.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Earlier you mentioned Dr. Phil Maffetone has made a big impact in your life. Do you have any other heroes or mentors or people who have made a big impact in your life? Lucho?

Yeah, for the last 10 years. I kind of— I tried to just go with like the first person that came to my mind on that one without overthinking it. And really, I think Lucho has been my homie, man. Like, he is just— he is my— he's so consistent. Like, he's been such a rock in my life from, you know, a friendship standpoint. He was my coach for a while, but then also as my co-star on Ask the Coaches on Endurance Planet. And I just have a lot of respect for the guy. Like, he, he's not afraid to say what's on his mind. He's brilliant, even though he won't necessarily admit it. And I've learned so much from him. Like next to Phil Maffetone, those two guys have helped shape me more than I can say. And, you know, Lucho— and still with that said, as I've kind of come into my own philosophies over the years, I very much have areas where I differ with Phil and Lucho. Like, I— and maybe that's because I come from a female athlete experience with a different history than they do. So I have very like clear areas where I differ. And we can engage in constructive debates about it on a very healthy and, you know, amicable level. But overall, I just, I think that we need more people like that in this world that are just not afraid to say what's on their mind, you know, passionate about what they do.

And just consistent over time.

Yeah.

Yeah. Is there anyone else that comes to mind? Anyone?

Any other people that, that made a big impact? Oh, you know, okay, here's another one. I didn't think about this before. I think I saw it on your— on some— we had something we had talked about, but I didn't put any thought to it before. But I'm just gonna go with the first person that came to my mind. And I think Chrissy Wellington, who won Ironman World Championships multiple times, um, she— I just have a lot of respect for her because she, you know, in very different levels of sports, she and I have similar stories where she went in hard, won a lot of things at the top, top level sport, and then kind of quickly retired. I had a shorter career. And because she's battled a lot of the same demons that I've battled as far as eating disorder stuff and disordered patterns and not necessarily genuine relationship between, you know, exercise, body, and food and all that kind of stuff. So, and I appreciate her for being more open about it over over the years and talking a little bit about her journey and everything. And I just— I think she's a great role model to women. And even if she did have a relatively short career in the span of triathlon, like, you know, she's a force to be reckoned with.

She's a strong person in so many ways other than just, like, her physical body. Yeah. Yeah. I want to be respectful of your time here. I got 2 more questions for you. Where can people find out more about you, about your coaching, about Endurance Planet?

Yeah, Endurance Planet, EndurancePlanet.com. And we, at this point, going back to the whole self-care thing, we're, we're doing a little less, fewer shows right now, but we're releasing shows every other Friday. And that you can follow us on Instagram, Endurance Planet, or Twitter to keep up with when shows come out. And then we're easy to get a hold of via social media and stuff. And then me personally, I'm at CoachTawny.com. Is where you'll find probably one of the oldest websites around that still functions, but I'm just too lazy to do anything about it right now. But that is where you can find me. I don't even know the last time I updated it. And, but it's there for if anybody was interested in, I do both consulting and coaching services for endurance athletes and sometimes even branch away from just athletes if it so happens.

Great. And I will make sure to link to that in the show notes as well. And then in closing over here, we've, we've covered a lot of topics in particular around like disordered eating and about like a more holistic approach to training and racing. Like, do you have any in closing, some thoughts about other ways for athletes to become a healthier, happier, and stronger athlete?

Sleep and rest. Don't deny the recovery that your body needs because you are human and your body needs to recover and you do need to sleep despite what you think. So even if you're like a late night owl, cause some of my athletes, we will have this like debate. Even if you cannot for the life of you go to bed by 10, then, oh God, that's a tough one. That makes me so angry. But I'm like, just go to bed earlier. Um, you know, figure out how to, on average, try to get that 7 to 8 hours a night. Yeah.

And most nights, and you like, that's, that's the part. Sometimes you, you come across people who think they can get away with 6 hours and it just will catch up with you sooner than later. And, and your athletic performance is, it's gonna suffer.

And yeah, that is such a valid point right there. Absolutely. Absolutely, man. Let me ask you a question. How's your running going these days? I know when we saw you in January, you had come off by doing a self-supported marathon.

Yeah, that was funny enough. That was, I think, the beginning of the year. Yeah, I started that. That was a fun one. I actually just came back from Zion, funny enough, hearing you talk about that you were recently there and what an incredible place to run that in. We were out there for, uh, for 3 days for a photo shoot and we were running through the park and outside the park and that was incredible. Um, honestly, my own mileage hasn't been that high. Um, a lot of other priorities going on, but still love going outside and running even just to clear the brain, going out there for 45 minutes, 60 minutes, or then getting the group runs in with our friends. And just like what you were saying earlier, just surrounding yourself with some other people and having that either accountability or just for me, it's just I'm catching up with some friends and I'm getting my run in. The run is almost a secondary and it's catching up with friends, but they both bring me a lot of joy at the same time.

Yeah. One thing I'll say on that, as my body's kind of healed from the postpartum phase and then we started out in van life and everything, it was literally impossible for me to get away for a 4 or 5-mile run even in the beginning. But what I was doing to at least just be mindful of movement was we'd be hanging out in a field and I would just do like 10 sprints, not even timed, just like run from one end to the other. And I find that like if you're in a season where you can't really focus on the training per se, like there is plenty you could do that takes less than 5 minutes. It could take as short as 20 seconds and you just figure out how to do that 10 times over the course of the day and you'll still get something. And honestly, those days that I did that, even though I didn't have a dedicated workout or even need to put on exercise clothes or sweatshirts, wet or anything, it still just felt very gratifying, and my body just still felt like good, like I like moved the way that my body needed to move. So I feel like no matter what season we're in, we always have an option. It's just whether our mind allows us to like get out and do 5 burpees or whatever it is, you know.

Don't make the excuse, just do it. Yeah, absolutely. Tawny, thank you so much for sharing all of your insight. I really enjoyed it, and I look forward to, uh, getting a run with you again sooner than later.

Yeah, sounds great.

Let's hit up some of the trails around here. Sounds like a plan.

All right, we'll talk soon. Bye now.

Bye.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. If you would like to find any of the links mentioned in the show notes, check out extramiles.com/42. That is the number 42. And I would love to hear from you. What was one lesson or key takeaway your favorite quote from today's conversation? Please let me know in the comments on YouTube. Also, if you would like to subscribe to the weekly newsletter from Extramileist, you can go to extramileist.com/subscribe. And typically every Friday I try to send out a newsletter with different insights, different running tips, different ways to improve your overall health and fitness. Also, if you enjoyed this conversation, please make sure to subscribe and to leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform.

Thanks so much and have fun out there on the run.

Later.