Rethink Your Training with Taylor Knibb & Lawrence van Lingen

First and foremost, you're a human being, and that's enough.

I went to a school where I was doing stuff every single second of every single day. And so it would be from one thing to the next, the next, the next. I was anxious all the time, which you say that time pressure creates anxiety. I feel like I'm a lot calmer this year.

I think that not many people get to live an authentic life and express themselves authentically. Quickest way to do that is change your environment. And if people are feeling lost or picked on, the quickest thing I can tell that person is to, um, get out of that environment and get into an environment which is loved and trusted and accepted.

If someone told you, and you're a triathlete, you can't swim, bike, or run for a year, you need to walk for an hour in the morning, an hour at night, be kind to yourself, eat well, develop a strong community for a year, and then you will get back to training and then you will have success. How many people would do that?

Are you willing to do what it takes? Because often that's not— it's confronting your deepest fears. You're a human being blessed enough to move. You know, I have to help my friend up the road get out of bed every morning. I have to help clean him. I have to put him in a wheelchair. We wheel him around. You know, I'm blessed that I am strong enough and capable enough to help him.

Today, a different episode than usual of The Extra Mile Show with movement specialist Laurens van Lingen. In with 3x Ironman 70.3 World Champion Taylor Knipp. Typically on this podcast, I interviewed different endurance athletes, different coaches and experts about ways to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. Recently, I recorded a conversation with Taylor Knipp at our friend Lawrence's home, and he is part of Taylor's team. After the conversation, we half joked around that Taylor and Lawrence should have a conversation together, and they should basically interview each other and just see what comes out of it. Completely unscripted, completely unplanned. And sure enough, they started talking. We already had the lights set up, we had the camera set up, the mic set up, so why not? And it was really cool to see what unfolded. The conversation between a world-class athlete and a world-class expert on both the body and the mind. There were a variety of deep, honest topics that came up. There was a lot of laughing involved as well. I really enjoyed this conversation. This is the first time in 98 episodes of the Extra Mile to show that I'm not the host of the podcast, but both Taylor and Lawrence did a phenomenal job, and I look forward to hearing more conversations of them after this as well. I will make sure to link to the other conversations that I've had with both Lawrence and with Taylor. They're separate episodes. They will be linked in the description below. But yeah, I really thought that this was a magical moment that unfolded. Sometimes you just have to slow down, and sometimes you just have to be open to see Like these things, when you don't plan them, that's usually when the magic happens. But I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you do as well.

Which would you rather do, a long run, hard Ks or like 1.5K sets, fast 200s, or an Ironman-specific run, like, like hard intensity drawn-out run?

Well, I've learned that I've never done a full Ironman intensity drawn-out run.

You have? No. I was there. I witnessed it.

Was that the 8x1 mile?

Yeah.

Okay. Can I do them all in a week?

Yeah. But no, which would you prefer to do?

That that's my week.

Oh, all in one week.

Uh-huh.

You're choosing all.

Is that?

No. Well, that's a bit. Yeah, it's a perfectly good. Okay, your turn. I'll think of a question while you're asking me a question.

What would be the situation, circumstances, personality, and discipline of a person who you agreed to coach?

I'm getting more fussy. Okay, so—

But actually coach, not work with, coach.

Like as in like a darn coach, the fact I was a triathlete coach and I did sets and reps and intervals.

Or running or cycling or rhythmic gymnastics, skiing.

Where do you come up with these questions? So I used to coach and I don't coach anymore and I'm kind of intrigued by coaching, But I think there would be a— because I did love it and I do, I was very passionate about it. But I'd have to make space in my life for coaching first and reintroduce that in, which I don't see like a big why not. It's just do I have the bandwidth for it? And then obviously the person just have to be exactly like Don. They'd have to be coachable. They'd have to be, I think, a level of intrigue. Some of them— and this doesn't necessarily mean elite. It just means I'd have to be pretty enamored and aligned with their goals. Yeah, coachable and then trust. The real sense of trust. Like, the trust is so important. You have to trust that your coach is smart enough to figure out problems for you. And if they're second-guessing, you know, just— that's what I'm really trying to cut out of my life now is lack of trust relationships.

Do you trust people?

I think I had trust issues. And yeah. I do, but not that many, and in certain ways. I trust you.

Well, thank you. I trust you.

There we go. There's a lot of people I trust not to trust.

Well, and like, what's the first telltale sign of that?

You taught this to me. There are three pillars of trust: logic, empathy, and authenticity. Yeah, and very often people will show trust— there's a breakdown in logic, or there's a breakdown in authenticity, or there's a breakdown in empathy. And so, so that's a really good way of looking at trust. I think there's a few more pillars of it, but I'm not— here's a good saying: when people will show you who they are, you just have to believe them. You have to believe them when they show you who you are. A lot of people were like not listen the first time or not accept, you know, but pretty— people pretty quickly show you who they are.

Why do people not accept or believe who a person is when they show them?

Uh, meritocracy. You see, another thing that you showed me— I, I think a lot of people are overwhelmingly influenced by their culture and environment and want to be homogeneous in their culture and environment. And so they think like, I need to act and believe in a certain way in order to be accepted or be included. And, and that's, that's often, I think, like in triathlon, because we're kind of immersed in triathlon, I think there's a, you want to walk like a duck, talk like a duck, and pretend to be a duck, you know. And so there's very duck-like behavior, um, you know, because you all, you want to fit in. Um, but there's, you know, you might be a swan.

Okay, so what happens if the ducks realize you're a swan and you are cast out? What are your next steps, hypothetically?

Hypothetically? Well, you read Hans Christian Andersen, the story of the ugly duckling. Um, yeah, well, well, I think we kind of talked about this. I, I think that not many people get to live an authentic life and express themselves authentically, what that means to them. I mean, if, like you were talking earlier, if they mean a nasty— perhaps you shouldn't express your authentic self. But I think that would be a— I mean, we're going to derail the conversation. I think most people authentically are— if you're mean and nasty, that's a trauma response or something you can work through. There's always dark and light in both, in everyone. But I think, you know, the steps of is to try and see the world as it is, not as it's been imprinted on you. And probably the quickest way to do that is change your environment. And if people are feeling lost or picked on, or— I know a person at the moment, you know, the swim coach is basically a bully and is very controlling, and there's not a great vibe, and she's leaving the pool in tears. The quickest thing I can tell that person is to get out of that environment and get into an environment where she's loved and trusted and accepted. And, you know, so changing your environment and just moving towards— some people are You know, we're all very blessed and privileged by and large. I mean, we have a roof over our head, we have our basic needs met, we probably have some sense of abundance, we have a purpose that we've just really, really blessed. There's some people are just living day by day or don't have enough food on their table. So generally trying to move towards a space where things are better and move towards where you're cared for and loved and seen. And as you start to change your environment, I think you can realize that you can find a whole pack of swans. Oh yeah. Um, yeah, so, so it's along those lines that I think— I had an extraordinary conversation with someone the other day, and they grew up so, so dirt poor, and it could have been so bad. And she had all the excuses in the world to turn out, let's say, an alcoholic or drunk or whatever, and she didn't. She turned out basically just has an amazing and blessed life because she just managed to always see the positive and bring the positivity. And she just chose life and growth and experience. And so out of these really, really dark situations, if you can start to reframe it in your mind just somehow, I, you know, I think they give you perspective. I mean, you look back, you don't have any regrets when you had a tough coach, you know, when you were in a tough environment, when you come out of that environment, you feel liberated and then you enjoy it, but you have perspective and you say, okay, well now I have a perspective and I don't want to go that way. I kind of want to choose this way.

So you're very good at seeing people for who they are and seeing people where they are, like in a positive way. I want to note, like, have you always been that way or is that something you've learned and developed?

Something that's really interesting is, is, um, I spoke to someone and, and they can pick up when someone's in a bad mood just walking up the steps, and, and they can read the room very, very quickly and very good judge of character. And that's because they, they grew in a household where there was sort of basically domestic violence, and so you had to read very quickly who was coming through the room and what their mood was. And for part of my life, I was in quite a tough sort of boarding school. There were bullies, and like hardcore bullies, I mean, you know, pretty savage. And, you know, you had to read the room quite quickly So I think possibly from that, there's, there's an element of that. I think someone was asking me about movement and knowledge because like, I don't second guess myself when it comes to movement. If I think something's bad, it's bad. If you're, if there's excessive ankle pronation when you're running, I'm, we're stopping right there and we're getting into a shoe that's, that's more appropriate. I don't second guess myself when it comes to movement anymore. I trust. My instincts. I'm not saying I'm infallible, but I don't second-guess myself. And if it's good, it's good. Um, but a lot of that was just massive, massive amounts of experience. You know, I used to work with rugby players and I used to watch basically 60 people train, and we didn't have depth, so we had to keep the players that we had on the field because we didn't have depth. So I would regularly pull people off the field if I thought they looked tired, if they were rocking back on their heels, if they weren't moving well, if they weren't concentrating. And some, it wasn't, it was met with resistance in the beginning, but later on they realized, well, when they pull their hamstring 10 minutes later, they started to listen to me and we'd start to almost, you know, there was a trust build up. So I don't know, I've been in my, some people obsess on certain things. It's just movement and how people move and watching people movement is something I've obsessed with over decades. And so I suppose at some stage you got to get competent in that field, hopefully.

You're very competent, but like going from the trust and like almost responsibility, you talk about how you sometimes probably always feel like you have a sense of responsibility for athletes and when you see things, but on a team and like, how do you feel about the difference between athlete responsibility and coach responsibility?

That's a deep question. Um, You know, I think athletes do need to take responsibility for their situation. You know, at some stage, like, let's say we'll take it out of a coaching situation. If you're in a domestic violence situation, at some stage you need to realize that you're codependent, okay? As horrific as that sounds, or, you know, you need to get out of there and you need to take actionable steps. Because I don't think it's the co— I don't think it's an athlete's job to coach the athlete or to change the coach. I think, you know, so that there has to be some level of, okay, this is inappropriate, I'm standing up for myself, this is not good, or I'm leaving, I'm moving to— you know, you always have these decisions. A lot of people might feel they don't have agency or don't have an empowerment. I mean, what's, what's really bad is when you have a power differential, let's say like a high school coach and young female. I mean, I've, I've known of a situation, it is horrific, with a predator as a high school of, um, water polo coach, you know, working with young female athletes. I mean, that is just abominable, right? Um, but just in, in general terms, you know, I, I think people know, and I think you, you've, you've got to listen to that voice inside you, and you've got to take steps. And sometimes it means, you know, but we're pressurized, you know, there's guilt, or my friends are here, or they're— someone's told me they're a good coach, or you don't have resources. You always do have resources. And then I think coaches have a massive responsibility. You know, I heard someone saying the other day that, oh, it's ultimately always up to the athlete and it's their responsibility. But that's not true because you as a coach, you can put an athlete in a tough spot and then they can express to you that that was a bit much. I was tired afterwards and you don't listen, then you do it again. You know, how many times do you repeat that pattern before you've been an irresponsible coach? You know, you, you as a coach in terms of triathlon, you are responsible for the dose, the load, the recovery. You're giving them guidance on their form. You can see if they're tired, if they're not tired. You know, you had a friend look at you and say, you look really tired, you need to come and have a chat. That's the coach's job. Is when, I mean, you need to have enough trust in your ability as a coach to say, look, I think you should just get out the pool, go home and have a nap. But if you're a dogmatic coach and you want to print a formula, and like I say, you know, a lot of people are trapped in their mind or trapped by thoughts or trapped by programs or have so many conflict. Like, this is the plan, this is how we roll. I mean, I hear it at colleges, it's pretty dysfunctional. You say, well, at this college, this is how we do things. You're supposed to go to college to explore and open up your mind and unlearn how to do things, you know. But, but coaches are pretty dogmatic sometimes— not sometimes, often. And this is how we do things here. So I don't know. It's a, it's a complicated conversation, isn't it? What do you feel about that?

Yes.

Okay. So Taylor, when's enough enough?

Well, it was interesting because after Paris, when like, didn't have, I didn't have a great race and Don said like, we win as a team and we lose as a team. And so, and one member of the team had like a bit of an issue, like acknowledging that we lost. But I think it's like, if you win as a team and you lose as a team, then it's kind of just like, I think that's where the trust builds. And it's like, it's bidirectional. I know like my responsibility as an athlete is to communicate and like understand the session to the best of my ability. So then to understand its intention and its aim And did I hit that? And did the session allow for me to hit that?

Yeah.

Cause like, I think those are like factors that I consider. And if, if it, if that didn't happen, like whether if it was me, it was the way the session was written. Like I think last year I, I had some feedback for Don about like a session or two and then I stopped seeing them. Like I told him that runs off the bike were way too stressful for me, just like based on where I am, where like. I have access to and just like, it's just a lot. And I see like, I don't think that they're productive and I've grown up in the sport. So I don't think that they'll probably come back. I haven't seen them in 12 months. So I think it's like, it's a relationship. And so both are responsible for the health of that relationship or all.

Yeah. And, and you need to know your limitations, like what you're good at and not. At a pro level, coaches are often not coaches as much as there are managers helping you to express your talent, whereas sort of down in— you can get down to more age group level and the coach is more of a cheerleader or motivational person, or they get you through a race. So I think, you know, things do change when you start saying coaching and not coaching.

Really? Because that's interesting that a coach is a motivator, cheerleader. Because I feel like with a lot of my coaches, it's more like—

Holding you back.

Yeah. Like there's a leash, there's a collar, just like, yank, there will be some resistance. Like there's less now, but like—

Yeah. How many? Yeah. A lot of the time your coach is holding you back.

Well, yeah. Cause it's easy to do more. It's easy to want to do more. So that's, that's an interesting, but also one of the things that Dawn says, like the most out of any person I know is, Number one, well, like, I really don't know enough to answer that question.

Yeah.

This is one of, I would argue, one of the best coaches in the sport in the world. Like, I do not know enough to answer that question.

Yeah.

Or like, and so it's just like, okay, if he can say that, if he can have that humility, because it's also, he understands like that I'm a unique athlete and it's more, he understands what's worked for certain athletes in certain circumstances, but it's finding what works best for each. Athlete.

So I think Dan's starting to know you better and better, and then that gets better. Yeah, because it's learning. Some people just don't learn, they just repeat the same mistake, and, and I don't know, like, it can't acknowledge failure. So I think a lot of that trust comes if someone makes a mistake, is owning the mistake, and then you want to see a behavior change. And behaviors can be really slow to change, so you've got to cut them a little bit slack, you know. But I think what you tapped on earlier, You know, if you're going to work with an athlete and you're going to accept the highs, then you have got to accept that the lows are low. And also, you know, I think as a part of the team, the athlete is probably experiencing however high a win is for a team member and however low when there's a bad patch. You know, the athlete's experiencing that 1,000 times more than the team.

Maybe. Do you remember on December 14th this year?

That was 5 days after my birthday.

Well, your birthday didn't really happen in your life.

Oh yes.

But do you remember, like, it was what, like maybe 4:00 PM? The race started at 7:00, so I finished at 11:00 and you were like, Taylor, like maybe be a little happy. Do you remember that?

Yeah.

Like 5 hours after I'd crossed the finish line at 70.3 Worlds, it was like, You can be a little happy.

Yeah.

So.

You could. Jenna was a little grumpy. Why was that?

I don't know.

You still haven't, you must have thoughts.

I think I was, yeah, I don't know. I think I was frustrated by the last part of the race. Like I fell apart on the run.

You didn't hand in good homework.

No, it wasn't a perfectly executed race and I was nailing it up until that point. And that's what it like, it just like slips away. And I think I reframed my goals in terms of the plan. I didn't stick to it fully and it was just kind of like get across the finish line and then that doesn't. And then there are also some like external comments where I think, I think a phrase that I kind of say a lot now is like, that's not really helpful. Or even that's unhelpful. And comments about it was the smallest margin of victory and stuff like this. It's like, okay, not helpful. Like, and I feel those things and I see those things and like I acknowledge those things.

And so, you know, everyone's going to have opinions and it's easy to have opinions from the outside. And it's always the bad opinion that keeps you up at night, not the compliments.

So that's tough, you know. Yeah, but like, I, I always kind of wonder, like, the person who gives the bad comment, like, why? Why do you feel the need to go out of your way to send this negativity into the universe?

Well, it's also in the mirror, you know. You see the world as a mirror, so it's a direct reflection of probably what they're feeling and where they're at. So here's an interesting thing, is like, kind of with Jan Frodeno, I think he had quite a solid fan base and a lot of supporters that were in— they were injured, he was injured, um, and they felt a strong connection to his struggles. And he was racing and then possibly not finishing a race, and then he was injured, and then another injury, and just had these setbacks. And there was almost the sense of people resented it when he overcame that and had one of his best races of his life. Like, people were not happy. And you see the comments about the, the pants and we should have been distant. He's not better than the sport. And it was extraordinary. And I think, you know, unfortunately, it's, it's hard when you're suffering or in a hard place to, to find joy and happiness for sort of other people. And in humans, 100%, we have this in-group bias. You, you're with us and you're part of our team, or you're not in our team. And it's very difficult to be very gracious and respectful and, and open-minded about people that aren't, aren't in your group.

So then how, how can you be really happy for other people while you're suffering? Like, what's not the trick, but like, I, I don't know, it's hard.

But like, let's say, let's say for me at the moment, um, my friend up the road has basically got an end-of-life crisis. And then that distills out, like, you know, you've got perspective. There's someone that's getting all cross about, you know, this technique or that technique and which one's better and should we do, you know, whatever. Be some storm in a teacup, you know. We, we— he's distilling out for the fact that we all have finite time on this planet and we don't know when our last day is. And I don't know, you can go and waste it on getting angry and shouty and frustrated. And, you know, there is this notion— we talked a little bit about this— like, humans at this moment have an information overload crisis, whereas information was always a scarcity. So you always had to seek out knowledge, you had to learn, you had to go and find knowledge. Now we have too much knowledge, and so it's perspective of knowledge or understanding of knowledge or seeing patterns in knowledge or how can we be effective in that. And I think, you know, the frustration of that is people are lost and don't know what to hold on to and don't know what to trust, let's say. So let's say in triathlon, you're like, oh, well, this is my run form and I like this form and so-and-so does that form and this is the way. And then someone says, has a a totally counter-argument to that, that will upset you deeply because you're putting a lot of time and effort and bias into your process, and you don't like someone not agreeing with what you're doing. And that's just playing out in so many spheres. We're becoming, I think, very binary in our thought, and we're not walking a mile in another person's shoes, and we're not saying, well, what if I'm wrong? Because I think we're so overloaded with knowledge, we don't have time for curiosity, or we don't have Time for perspective, I suppose.

So you have like, you have a way of doing things that you share with the world.

Yeah.

You don't ever tell anyone you have to do this. It's just an idea or a suggestion. So why do so many people get upset? With you?

Um, well, they're beholden to the worldview, they're beholden to a cultural imperative. I'm, you know, I'm quite fortunate is that I— one is I grew up in South Africa, which is not the USA, so, you know, um, you have a different perspective. And I've worked with athletes from all around the world, and, and I think one of the best— one of— well, so one is I worked with African athletes, um, that were obsessed with rhythm, flow, feeling. They'd almost never complain about an injury, and they said absolutely stopped them dead in their tracks. Pain they could deal with, discomfort. Their lives were hard, and they grew up very poor and very humble. I mean, a lot of them only could eat once a day, you know. I mean, I have people, they asked us if we had shoes to give them, and I said, well, my feet are too big for your feet, and my wife's feet are too small for your feet, you know. There were two of them, and they said, no, no, it's no problem. And they took our shoes. These are secondhand training shoes which which we were kind of done with, and they cut a hole in the top to poke their toes out, and they stuffed newspaper in the other shoe to make it the right size. Um, and 2 weeks later they ran a 90K road race in them, hard. Okay, so I think I have a little bit of a different perspective when people start talking about how important shoes are. Um, and, you know, and a perspective— we're working with a Russian athlete that was a doctor that was extraordinarily smart, and he just didn't see the world the same way I did. So I think Maybe I have a different perspective from, from that, um, but it's very hard if you've gone to college and you've paid an absolute obscene fortune for an education. At the college, people still have their license plates of their college, or like the alma mater, or what are their alumni, you know. It's like they've been branded and owned by their college because they paid so much money, so now they're loyal to them for the rest of their lives. And you got the best education because clearly your college was the best, that's why you went there. Yeah, so I mean, it's, you're in a space and you know, I think America's education is very homogenous, we're talking about Americans, like all the, you know, it's standardized across all schools. And so it's, I think it's not easy to think outside the box or to think creatively or to think what's the new approach. You know, it's very, very difficult, so it upsets people. Because you've put a lot of time, money, and effort into mastering something. And I was like that, you know, I wanted to be the best at what I was doing and I studied the hardest. I wanted to know the most. I wanted to know the most detail. And once you had sort of a formula, working formula, you were really not happy that someone did something in another way, you know. But there's always a duality and there's always two sides, three, four sides to everything. So it's tough. So we've talked about this, but it's one of the most stressful things in the world to turn around and break down your own body of knowledge that you've, that you've acquired. And it, it'll probably be more stressful than a divorce. And so basically scientists just stop doing it. So, so David Epstein, I think, has written on this, where specialists can actually get worse and worse and worse at what they do because eventually the emotional— it's too emotionally taxing or damaging or hurtful to turn around and tear your own body of knowledge down. And that is the scientific method. You have to be able to tear your own body of knowledge down.

And that's why you say it gets harder to question or change your beliefs when you teach them.

Yes. So if you're a teacher or if you identify with a certain body of knowledge, so if your Instagram handle is, you know, I don't know, the Barefoot Full Foot Runner, and then suddenly you injure your foot really badly and you have to run in shoes, you put yourself in a bit of a spot, you know, or whatever. It doesn't matter.

Matter.

You know, if, if you view the, you know, the— I don't know, what was that guy's name? The Liver King. There's a guy called the Liver King, right?

I mean, does he eat liver?

A lot of it. And then one day you realize, oh, you know, I have an intolerance to, to meat and I can't eat animal protein anymore. Like, it's going to be tough, you know. So you've got to be careful how you express your identity. You know, I've gone through— I don't talk of stuff that I don't work on. So I've basically shed my old brand, Inner Runner, because people were starting to think, oh, you only work in running, it's one type of person. I want to help all people. So I just let go of an entire brand.

Was that traumatic?

No, it was easy.

Did anyone give you a hard time?

Um, no, that's probably why it was easy.

For anyone who might be considering branding themselves like that, what would you tell them or ask them?

I think sometimes out of structure, like sometimes rules are good, right? So, so I would say a guiding structural way of thinking about it is first and foremost, you're a human being and that's enough. Just being a human being is enough. And secondly, you're a human being blessed enough to move. You know, I have to help my friend up the road get out of bed every morning. I have to help clean him, I have to put him in a wheelchair, we wheel him around. You know, I'm blessed that I am strong enough and capable enough to help him. Two people have put their backs out trying to help him already. So being a competent, functional human being that is blessed enough to move— and you know, Steve Hawkins couldn't really move but just did extraordinary work. So whatever you've got, you're blessed enough. And then thirdly is generally how everyone shows up in the world, is your identity or your shield or your, you know, your team colors that you put on, but that's not who you are. And I, from my perspective, I think the universe loves to take that away from you, you know, so to test who you are. I think it's in reincarnation, or it's definitely from the Eastern sort of philosophy. I'm not sure who it is, but in terms of reincarnation, they say in this lifetime you will repeat the same lesson again and again and again until you have learned it. So I tend to think, you know, if you strongly identify that as this, you will be challenged so deeply on your core beliefs until you let them go or die trying to hold on to them.

So what is the lesson that you're still learning?

Me? Mm-hmm. Um, things I'm working on.

No, no. Like, what's that lesson that you talked about? The Eastern philosophy that says—

Oh, oh, what lessons that I've got to do?

Um, no, no. What is, what is that lesson that you want? Like, you, you'll have to learn it and learn it and learn it again?

For me, at the moment, in this lifetime, we'll see what shows up. At the moment, I'm living really creatively and forwardly and pretty busy and engaged, and I'm pretty blessed and happy with how I'm showing up. So I'm, I'm sure the universe will put one in front of my nose that's rather large, but at the moment, I don't really have a big lesson that I'm, I'm not perfect. But I'm, I'm— and probably it's, it's probably more trust in others and increasing that sort of level of trust. Um, because I think I, you know, having been bullied, you end up being kind of a victim mindset, and then the trust is an issue from that point of view. And also, we're talking a lot about myself. We're going to talk about you after this. In my profession, I have helped many, many people that other people couldn't help. So at one stage, you, you know, you just treat everyone And then at some stage, you, you know, in my journey, I started treating people that couldn't help. And then at one stage, it was all day long, all I would do for 10 hours a day, see failed cases that no one else could help, basically. And so I think from that, and like with injuries, you know, like working with Jan was— Jan, I know the best in the world, and they can't help me. You know, so they want a different approach, but that's— so from that perspective is, yeah, I think I'm okay being a little skeptical of other people and their competence and what they can and can't do. I mean, you know, sometimes I have a situation where I say, look, I'm going to step back for a while, let all the people that say they can help you do their best, and if you need me, I'm here. And then hopefully they sort you out. But if they don't, you know, then we sort the problem out. Then that happens a lot in my life. So yeah, it's hard to, to, you know, at some point you're gonna like, what does Don say to you? I, you can try that, but I don't see that that's going to work out, you know what I mean? So I, I have a lot of those moments, and that's not trust. That's like, yeah, I don't think it's going to go so well for you. What do we call it? The hero's journey.

Yes, but note it's hero's journey, not heroine's journey, because the women were always at home.

Yes, but Penelope had a heroine's journey. There's just no one— you could write her side of the story.

I'm not a writer.

You write every day.

There are a lot of other people who would be much better at that.

Uh, and what are you then, in your core, in your essence?

Well, as you just said, a human.

Yeah.

And that's enough.

That's a very good answer. I don't like, I don't like these questions. You're too clever for me.

How do you feel when I re-quote you back to yourself like a year later, 6 months later in a different context?

Yeah. I'm starting to get nervous about what I say around you when, like you say, a year ago on this training run, you said Oh God, the problem is I talk so much at some stage I'm going to say the— I used to testify in court, right, as an expert witness, and the rule was say as little as possible because you're going to trip yourself up. So perhaps I should just stop talking.

No, I appreciate that. But how— one thing you always ask me is you say like, oh, can I, can I come to your run? Can I see you run? Like, why is that valuable for you? You, like, you'll see me on the table, but then what else do you learn by actually— and why is that important? Like, if you're going to work with someone that they, they not grant you that permission, but they're like all in on that too.

Well, there's a, there's a part of trust. Um, I mean, I work with remote athletes on other sides of the— I've, I've helped people have break— the one athlete I think in mind, I've never ever met him. Face to face, and he had like a, a massive breakthrough in his Ironman marathon. I think, you know, something along— he dropped it from like a 2:58 to a 2:42 marathon. I've never met him. So I have, I have this all the time where people I've never met and never seen in the flesh have big breakthroughs, and I've hardly ever seen that guy running. So you don't have to— generally more data is better, more input's better, A lot of the time for you, it's to get the feel, to get— there's so many things when you're running. It's your breathing, it's your mood, it's the timing, the rhythm, the feel. Are you executing? Like, what's the intent? What's the environment that you're in? A lot of the time, you might not— you'll probably understand this more now. A lot of the time when I went with you on runs, it was to create the right environment around you, the right feeling. And now you're like, you know, you've got your own little wings and off you go and you're creating your own structure. Watching and feeling, but a lot of the time is to shape the right environment and feeling. So that's why it's valuable. Um, but the opposite is true. You can literally have a look and assess people, and, and I'm pretty good at predicting. I, I do it every now and again. I'll say, this is how you run. And they say, how do you know how I run if you've never seen me run? I said, because your body doesn't lie. It'll show you how you run it. You know, like, if you're—

yeah, I'm not sure if I should ask you this question. Maybe we could edit this, but you said you could Be gentle to scout out competition. You could tell a lot about athletes if you saw them walk barefoot.

Yeah. Well, I think you said competition. I said I can tell a lot, a lot about athletes by watching them walk and move and obviously watching them barefoot. And you've heard me say this before. I mean, uh, you know,, there's an athlete that springs to mind where someone was saying, oh, they're really strong and this is amazing. And I said, oh, I don't think that's on a sustainable path. It looks like it's, the trajectory is not great. That, that I didn't have to see them barefoot. I didn't. I think just with experience, you start to get a real sense of, you know, where people are heading and how they're showing up and what their mental and emotional space is.

But that's unique. Not everyone can see that.

Yeah, but not everyone does my job.

No, no one does your job because I've asked Lawrence, if you move or you go away, who's your backup? And you've given me that there's potentially a guy, I think, in the UK. That's it.

So for clarification, I think, you know, like fascia is a bit of a buzzword at the moment. A lot of people say they can treat fascia. It's extraordinary. When you treat fascia, you, you have to reprogram your brain, and it's not how we were taught to think at medical school. So you have to almost inverse the world. So it's, it's a feedback loop, and you're dealing with people's emotions and how they feel, because your fascia, which is this big connective tissue, it's the largest organ in your body, and it has more— 6 to 10 times more nerve endings in it than your muscles. But it's a feedback. It's the organ of emotion. So if you have a positive response, the fascia will typically respond positively, but never directly. So it's really easy— people are cupping and scraping fascia now and saying, well, you do what I tell you, I feel you tight here, and you should loosen up, and you should do this. But it's a little more complicated than that. And seeing someone and saying, well, Tension could be making your hip collapse, not just a weak glute medius.

Okay.

Why is the person showing up like that? Because we all know if you're in a really good mood, sessions can go easier. And if you're in a not a good mood, sessions can collapse in you pretty quickly. So, you know, I don't know, you're playing around with, with intangible things or with, with nuance, you know, what makes someone amazing to watch running? And someone that's running right next to me at the same pace, not amazing to watch. You know, what is that X factor? What is that fluidity? What are the, you know, these intangible things that make someone a beautiful mover and someone not a beautiful mover? It's difficult. It's like singing. It's, it's— there's a man, someone says, oh well, that's a very subjective opinion. I said, yeah, you know, but it's very subjective that everyone liked the Beatles. You know, and it's very subjective that if I put out a hit record, I don't, which wouldn't be a hit.

But it might be a hit to someone.

It might be a hit to someone.

Yeah. But it's like, it's kind of like, like, why do you love a given person? If you had the same person, like duplicated, you might not like them.

Yeah, exactly.

But so that made me think of the nuances to like what makes a good session or like, and you, you like to say you can't separate motion from emotion. Or is it the opposite way?

It's bidirectional.

Doesn't matter. You can't separate the two. Yeah. So like with the movements, like our emotions and emotions influence movements. But so the term high performance, what, what does that mean to you?

I have an image. My friend Ratboy tattooed high performance on his quad. So every time I hear like, and his friend did it and he had a bit of a shaky hand. Okay, so every time I hear the word high performance, I just see Ratboy's tattoo on his leg and I have a little chuckle, first and foremost. And then secondly, because I think I'm— maybe I know where you're going with this— I've seen the talent trained out of so many people so that I don't really want to get involved in a lot of formal high performance environments because I think they're not the healthiest environment to express talent in. In sport, in business, in life, in life. Yeah. And, and you, you can be a, a lot of very, very successful, driven people that are extraordinarily high performance or extraordinarily damaged, you know. I mean, it's not coming from a place of really healthy, you know. You, you can— we, we just understand. I don't have to delve into too deep into that, you know. And some of the greatest of all time in, in different things were pretty darn dysfunctional. So, so there's that. I'm into healthy high performance, so trying to elicit healthy high performance in a healthy way so that you can retire afterwards, have a life, and take the lessons that you learned from high performance into your next life. And I want people to be able to run for the rest of their life. So I don't want to do— I, you know, if we're working, you and I are working in high performance, any decision I make or or influence that I have on you is I want you to be able to, to run until you no longer want to run, not have a running injury end your career or life. Or life, yeah. Taylor's warming up. I know that. I'm gonna tell you, so when Taylor was in— when Taylor was time trialing in Charleston, okay, it was a really funny story. I'll tell a funny funny story about Charleston. So we get these two, we get the two drivers. So you get a driver and they have to be UCI ratified. What are their names?

Um, I think it was John and John.

Yeah, John and John. Okay. And, um, they're like, oh, you know, we get a triathlete.

They were friends of Patrick's. Yeah, they were friends.

Kindly. Kindly. Yeah. So they're kindly helping us out, but I think they got the B— they thought they had the B team because you've got a triathlete. Then the radio didn't work. So they're like, oh my, we have got the B team here in the car. C team. C team. So anyway, we're driving along and I'm trying to talk into the radio just in case maybe the radio's come on and Taylor can hear. And then I'm telling the one, John, I said, look, we're going to turn around, you've got to shout out the window, but I'm going to be very specific about what you're allowed to say to Taylor. Okay, so just say after me. I can't remember what it was. Data. Taylor wants data. They're like kind of shaking They're shaking their heads and then, then I, and she's, they turn around at a time. So they had a couple of comments, Taylor. So once I'm talking to the radio, so I say, okay, don't go out as hard as you can. The RPE is 8 or something like that. And the guy's just, I've never heard someone say, don't time trial as hard as you can. That's never been said before in cycling. Anyway, we come back and I'm at the hill. Okay. 'Now you can pick it up, Taylor. You know, you can be going or whatever.' And anyway, we turn around the corner and Taylor's smiling, right? And you know that, like, I've never seen someone smile in a time trial. And anyway, I said, 'Yeah, you'd be surprised. That's it, Taylor will be smiling while she sticks the knife in. So you'll be good.' And anyway, and then we were driving along, he looked at the speed and he says, But she's doing over 30 miles an hour.

This is the tough section.

And then we kind of got a glimpse that, you know, we got the first split and Taylor was ahead, and suddenly the whole car was euphoric and like, oh my God, let's go, she looks amazing.

And remember, we held back at the beginning.

Yeah, we held back in the beginning to unleash hell later on. But anyway, I can see that glint in your eye.

No, don't worry, I'm kind to people. All right, that's all right. No, don't worry, I have to see you tomorrow, so we'll be good.

Don't burn bridges. Let me ask you, so let's talk about time. We've talked about time a few times, and I feel like I've spoken at you about time a little bit. Because when I, I, I think on one of our first runs, we were almost trying to create content.

Um, wait, was this the mile repeats?

No.

Would, cuz I will remember, I think that that was the first run where it was just the two of us.

Yeah.

And you had just spent like a few weeks with Jan and it was like all over the place probably. And I don't know how he is when he is training, but I think we'd done 3-mile repeats. And I said, there are 3,000 seconds left or something like that. And I was like, oh God, he probably thinks I'm psycho. However many we'd done, there were like 3,000-second laps. And I was so excited. And then I realized, oh, I don't think any other athlete has ever told Laurence this before.

Yeah, but that's unique and cool. And I think that's wonderful.

I get very excited when there are 1,000 seconds left. That's 16 minutes and 40 seconds. So see the time to like—

yeah, I think that's beautiful. And your relationship to time is, is amazing. No, but one of the, one of the early easy runs, I remember everything seemed just a little hurried, and we started talking about the nature of time. And time can shrink and contract, and it can appear that you don't have enough time or that there's more than enough time, and your perception of time. So I'm going to ask you now, do you think your perception of time and your relationship to time, seen as it's very important to you and and you know the seconds in things, has it changed?

Definitely. Yes. I feel like I'm a lot calmer this year. And part of that is also, you say that time pressure creates anxiety. And so I think, so we talked a little bit about the American education system. I went to a school where I was doing stuff every single second of every single day. And so it would be from one thing to the next, to the next, to the next. And it would be like, I'd dive in for a swim and I literally had 60 minutes to get in however much. And it was probably a little bit of a stretch. So it was always like, I guess it's, that's probably the aerobic base that we were talking about earlier. Like when you have like, you wanna do it all and you wanna do it in that time. And so yeah, I think I was just, I was anxious all the time, which we talked about just last week. You said that like most people in the world right now are anxious and maybe that's a time thing. Because we're always expected to do stuff. There's always more to do. We're kind of at everyone's beckoning call at any second and time isn't yours.

And there's a lot of instant gratification going on, not delayed gratification.

Yeah. But the same thing, I think, like yesterday's run, like we finish and all of a sudden, like I probably wasn't very nice to you, but like it was like you reach your phone and it's like 15 messages and it's just like, Yeah, like you could see how it just like pulled me and yanked me, and it was like, yeah. So my relationship with time has changed, but it doesn't mean I don't fall back into old patterns.

Yeah, it's easy to fall back into old patterns. The nervous system tricks you like that. So, so, and would you say you were having a sense of lack of time or a low-level sense of sort of anxiety versus karma? We're just choosing arbitrary adjectives now because It's obviously a lot more complicated than just calm and anxiety, but do you think that energized you? Do you think it got you through the day? Was it a bit of a wired and tired situation or a bit of—

probably all the above, because I think at a certain point, if you're doing something that's not sustainable, if you don't have time to think about it and to really like question it, like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? And I think that Again, we'll go back to the American education system. Like, it's really easy to get good at school and follow it and then graduate and be like, now what? Because it's like everything's like the, like, do get good grades and stuff like, but it doesn't really prepare you for life. And so just kind of like following this like random plan of like what you should do. Yeah. That if you really think about it, like, like I remember in high school, I was like, distraught after getting a bad grade on one test.

Kind of like December 14th.

But then you, then you realize in the grand scheme of things, like, does it, does it really matter? Yeah, yeah. And so, but in that moment, like, why does it feel like it matters so, so much?

Yeah, well, that— now you remember we went back and we were talking about why do people get upset with a different idea? Because at that time it matters so, so much. You're creating that, it matters so much. I'll tell you what's really interesting. When I came to— so I was a chiropractor in, in South Africa, and for a lot of different reasons I didn't requalify as a chiropractor in this country, um, but a lot of my tools were taken away from me. And so like, let's say dry needling— I used to dry needle quite a bit— suddenly I couldn't dry needle in California. And then I was in a practice where I wasn't allowed to do formal rehab, whereas I used to be I used to do a lot of strength and conditioning in rehab, and I stopped that. And so taking the— I stopped kind of out of choice. I don't manipulate anymore, like as a chiropractor, I don't manipulate joints anymore. So taking away your tools often really amplifies other areas of your life. So now, you know, I'm really good at not big movements, at small movements, and I'm, you know, I can treat fascia without needles, and I can, you know, so for someone, it is interesting is you can create constraints. Like, let's say an analogy would be a blind person might have exceptional hearing or feel or touch. So sometimes losing the ability to do one thing can really enhance you in other areas of your life, you know. So it is. And so I was faced with that. I had a, um, a fracture in my arm, and we didn't know what it was. It wasn't good news. It was a tumor. Um, and part of the big reframing for me and and re-questioning my body of knowledge and reorganizing how I thought and showed up in the world, and was because I realized I might never be able to treat people again. And I had good hands, I was always good at treating people. And suddenly you realize, like, well, if you can't treat people now, how are you going to show up in the world? We're going to have to teach them. And so that's how Inner Runner started, was to realize I need to transfer my skill and try and teach people how to run because I might never be able to treat them again. So that's a good way of reframing things.

Well, thankfully you can still treat people.

But who says I'm going to continue? What happens if I become a coach and I stop?

Well, then for those athletes, it will be a great reframing period to learn and grow from a period that they didn't and dot their i's and cross their t's a bit better.

Hmm. And we want to empower you, you know, and it is, there is a notion of If you treat someone and take their pain away, that doesn't necessarily mean they learned. Or that, you know, I mean, so that happens often. Many times I've said to a person, you might feel no pain, that doesn't mean you're quite out of the injury and you have to modify your behavior. And that's, those are the hard parts actually. Sometimes taking people's pain away is easy, but their behavior of what to do without that pain is the hard part.

Well, when you say they didn't learn, they may not have learned what you wanted them to, but they may have learned to just come back to you.

Yeah, well, I don't know, because I, I, you know, at some stage I wouldn't treat people if they're too stuck, you know, and people don't like it. So I think a lot of times people— and you've experienced this— I'm pretty relentless in progressing people.

And so, well, at least I'm honest about it, and I appreciate the honesty and the authenticity.

You know, so I, I, you know, again, some people like cheerleaders. They don't want to come in and say, look, this was going well and now it's not. Why? They just want to hear you're amazing, keep doing what you're doing, and I'm going to take pain away so you can just do what you're doing harder. And so there's a, you know, like there's a massive amount of self-reflection. And I think one of your gifts, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that you, you work on yourself. You're pretty hard on yourself and you put pretty high standards of work on yourself. And I think the hardest thing— I mean, I said in the first team meeting we ever had, the number one thing that I think I need to do is work on self so I can continue to remain relevant in your space, because that's how quickly I thought your trajectory of change and self-improvement would be. And I was gonna have to pull my socks up to remain relevant to you.

It wasn't that quick.

It's 18 months later or so. You read me like a book.

You remember everything that I said. Not everything, because remember my, like, one of my rules for myself this year is listen to Lawrence the first time.

Because someone's going to tell me how controlling I am.

No, no, no. There have been, like, instances where you pointed something out And then like 6 months later, it's like, you had the idea of a gel flask, remember? And then a year later, I'm like, guess what? There are these amazing things called gel flasks. And you're like, oh, I remember a year ago. So yeah, listen to Lawrence the first time.

Yes. You can stay another week.

Until LA.

Okay, just for everyone listening that's a triathlon fan, Taylor has negotiated my participation in triathlon until LA 2028.

Well, not in triathlon as a general thing, just with me. It doesn't have to be with everyone.

Would you, again, would you prefer me— because so here's something that's interesting because I mean, I don't think I'm speaking out of tune to say that you use me, or part of why you work with me is as part of high performance because it helps you, it helps you with a competitive advantage, right? Yes. Okay, so how come— I've asked you before because you— I said to someone, I mean, we have a relationship where you squeeze a lot of juice out of me, or you can extract a lot of value out of me. Some people don't extract as much value out me, but I have asked you before, is there anyone that I— you wouldn't prefer me not to work with? And you've said there's no limitations. Why don't you unpack that? Because Kobe Bryant, I think, famously told his fitness trainer, or one of his personal trainers, I don't pay you to work with me, I pay you that salary to not work with anyone else.

Well, so I'm not Kobe Bryant, first of all, but, um, but I think it's coming from a place where like my aim, we talked about like mastery, not medals, and to express my potential. And I try not to ask anyone something that I wouldn't ask myself. I'm not perfect. I probably do ask people to do things that I don't ask myself of. But so if I'm going to say, if you have a massive opportunity to learn from someone or to help someone, whichever way bidirectionally that relationship would be, like, that's why would I stop that? And because also at the end of the day, like, if they're the better athlete in the world and they're gonna walk away, like, finishing ahead of me in the race, like, fair play to them. So it's like, but that's where the mastery, not medals comes into play in terms of it's like, I just wanna be the best that I can be and I wanna express my potential., and I want everyone who I work with to be able to express their potential. And so like, if you were to say, oh, like Taylor, you can't do this, like that's not really fair, I guess. Like if you're like, no, you can't do the time trial if you're doing the triathlon or vice versa, it's more like game on. So if you're like, if you wanna work with every single one of my direct competitors, game on, I'm gonna have to level up or get left behind.

Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a lot of, we could unpack that for a while, but one of the things I do know is that that you pay attention to what I say because you wanna make sure that you understand what I'm, what I can bring to the table is maximized and optimized. And I think not everyone has that opinion, but that's very nice of you. So that leads me to my next question 'cause now I've got you on the ropes.

Oh wait, but one more thing is also it's, but it's also, it's a trust in you and a trust in myself in that like, regardless of who you work with, I trust that you want me to get the best out of myself. And so working with someone else, doesn't take away from that.

No, it often enhances because you can learn from other people valuable insights that help me grow as a practitioner, if you want to call it that. And the better I'm at my job, the more you benefit.

But also, like, and so it, like, it shouldn't affect me. And if I think it does, I probably need to reassess. Is that just me? I might have a really different answer in 2 years' time, but we're all good.

When you go through the mean phase.

I think that's this week.

No, I think you're just practicing the mean face.

I don't like it. I really don't like it.

Okay, so something for me is, um, do you, do you feel— and you don't have to say yes now, I mean, don't— I don't know, and I know you'll be honest, but like, do you feel in your position at the moment that you're a role model to people? And would you like to be a role model to people, or do you want to aspire young tailors to have healthy relationships with the sport? Do you think there's some sort of burden of obligation to do that, or what's your thoughts on being a role model and how that shows up for you and, and what does that mean?

I don't think of myself as a role model, but I recognize that people are watching. And like, not in a way like that I'm gonna change my behavior, but I also think like there's a level of responsibility for that. So Like I can think of a, I don't wanna name names, a pro runner with a massive following who had an injury and was single leg biking the next day. And like, I think that, you know what, there's some things that like if you need to do that, which I think is more of a coping behavior than a training or health behavior, if anything like that. Like if you need to do that, please don't post that or show it because you've just given at least one person permission to do that. And like when I got surgery, it was very hard, but I laid on my bed and I rested. And was it frustrating? Was I feeling like I was falling behind? Yes. But also was there like some strength that I gained from it? Because it's like, if you're really willing, people will say like, I'm willing to do whatever it takes. Yes. And it's like, okay, if someone told you, You can't swim, bike, and you're a triathlete. You can't swim, bike, or run for a year. You need to walk for an hour in the morning, an hour at night, be kind to yourself, eat well, and like develop a strong community for a year. And then you'll get back to training and then you'll have success. How many people would do that?

Yes. Now, now, you know, yeah. Yeah. This will take, come back to some of the questions before.

Yeah.

And so like, are you willing to do what it takes? Cuz often that's not, it's confronting your deepest fears.

Yeah. And so like, it's really easy to do like long rides and hard rides and big sessions and these like really impressive hero workouts. But like, is it, how, how easy is it when like you're in a pool with a lot of athletes who you might be racing against and You have a zone 1 swim that day and they don't, and, but you're still in the pool with them and you need to stick to your paces and do what you need to do and stick to your plan. Like how many people do that? How many people can do that? Very few. Yeah. So it's like, in terms of like being a role model.

Yeah.

So back to like the role model question, like I don't, I don't view myself that way, but.

But would you post something along those lines or do you feel like just you being you is enough?

Not right now. I don't think I— Because then it gets into the teaching and preaching. And like you said, it's learn, earn, give. And so, I feel like I'm still in the learning phase of my career. And I hope that if I do like what I want to do, that I can get to the point where I'm giving back. In a meaningful way. But right now it's like, right now I actually had a conversation with my dad like a few months ago that was like, oh, like I just want to be doing so much more with my life. Like, and he's like, no, Taylor, like focus on what you're doing. Like you'll just like work yourself thin. And I have a lot of time in the day. You talk about time and the anxiety. Like I have a lot of hours in my day where I'm like, what am I going to do? And like, but that's, I know that's a privilege and that's an honor and that like it's a choice that I make because I value what I do in the other hours and I don't want to take away from that.

And what's your favorite downtime pastime?

Reading. I'm loving reading right now because it just like, it relaxes me to a different level. So you always tell me like, it's time to read.

So yeah, let's try and add a little bit of an interesting thought into the world which might help. People are saying like, you know, when we talk about teaching and coaching, so we were going to talk about run form And I'm interested in your feedback, so I'm just going to ask you publicly. And I said, Taylor, get into book mode. And you said, what is book mode? Well, you know, the energy that you bring to this conversation is not one that would be aligned with reading a book, right? You seem, you know, you were pretty excited and animated and we weren't really getting anywhere with instruction. How are you? How does that feel like? Do you— does that relate to you when I say like book mode? Because that's when you learn, when you focus, when you're kind of calm, when you're present and you're in the moment, which is, which is how we try and we want to teach people how to move or think. Like, you can't teach a drowning person or a very anxious person how to swim because they're going to try and not drown, not actually relax in the water and work on technique.

So does that make sense to you? Yes, I think I may have asked what it meant, but we were even talking yesterday. I read a fiction book and a nonfiction book. Book and my fiction book relaxes me to a different level. And so my getting-to-book mode is more like learning mode and that's more my nonfiction book. But I think just like figuring out your body and how your brain works and I need a certain level of, and I know you don't love the term activation, but like it needs to be moving to a certain extent for me to relax.

Yeah. That's a very good answer. And that's— you also touched on something that's really, really interesting, is like learning and understanding who you are, like what your spirit animal is. And what I mean by that is, you know, we're all different. And like, I have very fair skin. I'm never going to be— win the darkest skin on Earth competition, you know what I mean? It's like, there's probably better examples of that.

Technology's changing, you never know.

So how important do you think it is to learn and understand your body and your sort of idiosyncrasies or your individualities? And how much closer do you think— do you think that's been a lot, a big part of your journey over the last year and a half?

Incredibly. But I think it's also realizing that if anyone asks me about what I'm doing now, I guess, or what works for me, I like to have a little like asterisk that this is what works for me right now. And this is what I'm doing right now because So if you, if you like did a whole scan of my life in the past 18 months, like put me back 18 months ago, first of all, you say I would jump out of my skin. Like my body's very different and I move differently and I see the world differently. So to put me back in that position, especially because like I have been in that position before, I don't think I would like it. I don't think I'd like myself, but that's also been a process of like learning and experiencing, and I've become the person I am because of those experiences. So like, I just wouldn't— I don't think I'd relate to myself because like I've lived a different life then. And then even the people who I had in my life, like some are constant and some are— some I don't— some of the people who I talk to the most, I don't like anymore. And so Also those, like it'd be like, like there were some highly controlling relationships in my life and that's like they worked for me at that time. But well, the nice thing is I don't think those controlling relationships would be, I'd have to deal with them for too long if you put me there 18 months ago. I would just, I'd be, I think I'd be just good walking away.

Like we're good.

There we go. Yes. So anything that might work, quote unquote, it's just now, but it's a process that's changing. So even understanding myself now, I realize that I won't be the same self in 6 months, maybe not even 3.

Yeah. And you're comfortable with change?

It's in phases because I think that there's like the hardest change is the change we don't want. Like some change is like really easy. Because it's like in a positive direction in that moment that we think. But as you say, like any, any event or happening can, regardless of the valence of it in that moment, can actually be the same or the opposite in a different time frame.

Yeah.

So do you feel you're more fluid and capable of change, more adaptable? I'm just asking.

I mean, yes. And you feel like yes and no? Yeah, because I think it depends in the area.

Like you're defending and protecting some areas?

Yes, I'm very— because like my training, like in terms of what I protect and defend, that's because I've learned. Um, and I've done it wrong a lot. And so when you've done it wrong a lot, like I'm not I don't want to compromise that, I guess. But like, I don't know how comfortable I would be moving.

Yeah. And you do like routine.

Routine is powerful for you, right? Yes. But I think like having the faith that you can learn to love almost anything and you can learn to form a new routine and you can— by you, I mean me. Like I'm confident in my abilities. And then it's like, okay, so if I can Like, like, like even if it might be challenging, having that faith that in a few weeks, months, years' time, it'll be okay again.

That's a very good answer. I'm thinking that was too— I'm tired. Maybe I've got one or two more good questions in there. Okay.

Your turn. Are you good with change?

Yeah. Cause I think we've, well, on some, exactly like you say, so probably on some things change. I, I, I like to think, and you know, we've all got blind spots, hence why you need to coach. Generally speaking, you know, coaches tell you what your, what your blind spots are. And then a lot of what we do between you and I is me pointing out your weaknesses, which is very, very hard because, you know, you, you come to someone, they're always saying, okay, we need to work on this, this needs to be improved, this, you know, I mean, it's just like I say, it's relentless. But if I think obviously there's a way of doing it, hopefully you feel more empowered and, you know, more confident in your body so that it is worthwhile change. I mean, it's got to be done sort of well, but I think for me—

maybe can we pause on that one second in terms of I'm so used to it that I think probably you can say like, oh, it's, it's challenging because like there's always something to work on. The day you say we're good enough, there's nothing to work on. That's when I'll lose it. So you've got to understand, like, as hard as something might be, the alternative, which is, oh no, there's nothing to work on— yeah, I think that would be harder. So it's like hard and harder, not like— life is not easy. That's the great myth.

It's not easy. Yeah. And I think hopefully as well is like, you know, every time we've had a problem, there's been a gift out of the problem. So if you've if something was a weakness and you've strengthened it, you've gained from it. So once you start learning, I think you're very good at, like you say, ripping the Band-Aid off or working on, on some problems. And because there's upside to, to downside, and if you can find something that you can trust to help you get the upside out of possible problems, and then, then that can become quite self-fulfilling and rewarding. Or you can start to get confidence that, oh, when we have a problem, we solve it and then there's upside. Like, I think that's a real nice gift in life.

But I think those are the key things that— and those are the key steps. Problem, solve it or address it at least in terms of the steps you need to, and then there's an upside.

Sooner rather than later.

Yeah, but it's not problem, oh, this will be the greatest blessing ever. Like, you can't just like, you can't skip that step of like addressing it. Because that's a really important thing. And sometimes things are just tough and hard, and like acknowledging that and sitting with that.

Okay, I know exactly my next question for you, but what I am gonna say is, for me, I think I do a good job of holding knowledge lightly in my hand, and as soon as there's a new and better way, I will shift and pivot towards that way. And as soon— if I ever find out something doesn't work or has downside or or— because I, I really do believe, and I try and live, first do no harm, then I let it go. So in terms of that, I'm fluid and constantly just trying to self-improve in whatever doesn't work, which, you know— so I'm— I think I'm reasonably good in that department, but I'd probably need a life coach to point out my weaknesses.

But now let us discuss— oh no, this is getting dangerously long. Platitudes. Platitudes.

Oh goodness.

I used that word to someone yesterday. In what context? Well, actually, because I said something and I'm like, I'm not just speaking in platitudes. Like, I want to make sure like that, you know, that I believe in you. It's not just like this fake cheerleader.

Okay.

Ooh. Well, because I think like a real cheerleader, like, like as Dawn said, like we win as a team and we lose as a team. So if you are like really there in support, you're there through the highs and the lows. And like, just as like you accept a whole person, it's not like you can like pick and choose pieces of people and assemble this ideal human. It's like, that's the human. Yeah. So what's your question about platitudes? I love the word. You love the word. I don't love them as a—

Okay. So, so, well, we can, we can, there's a, there's a lot of things to unpack here. So, so let's say in a race shouting for motivation, you prefer data rather than, than being told to speed up or encouragement. Yes.

Okay.

And is that an absolute, do you think?

I can probably learn, and I think it'd have to come from like the right person in the right context. Because I think, so like if you want to talk about like that specific example, if—

What specific example? I have one in mind.

No, no, no, no. Like if you, if someone on the sidelines tells me to speed up, I think like, I hope there's enough trust on the team that like I'm doing the best I can in that moment. And if I could speed up, I would. I'm sorry. Like there's not a world where You're going to have that big difference. I'm sorry. I appreciate you a lot, but it's like, that's like, and that's where it's like, I'm very aware of what's going on. I'm aware of the race and I'm trying to do the best I can. And so if it's like, like speed up, it's like, oh, I didn't have that idea. And that's why it's more like, it's, it's more like, especially like when it's hard in a race, like. Feeding to that almost like instinctual nature of like, if you said like, this person's 5 seconds behind you, like, I know what to do. I'm a racer in a lot of ways. And so it's like, let it kind of come organically and that'll like express itself. But I think the telling what to do is a little bit of a trust issue.

And so let's go to Milwaukee.

Yes.

What about it? There was a finger-pointing incident. Oh yes.

Yeah. But not to you.

No, not to me. No, I'm not gonna, I'm not, I'm not gonna throw myself under the bus or in a bad light.

We're on a podcast. Well, yeah, I was told to speed up and it was like, I was aware of the gap off the bike. There were 5, I think it was 5 laps and I was like doing the math and doing the breakdown and also realizing that I'm probably gonna pace the run evenly. And so if, if the gap's decreasing at a decreasing rate, then also like you have to take, you have to understand like the context of that. But I also understand like you don't want to, you don't want to let them smell blood.

I know that. Okay. So that's interesting. So now like just with the platitudes, um, Jan said to you, believe in yourself. And you received that well. But then, so what I guess what I'm asking, what— that, that can be really superficial too. That could come off as like not land well or land well. Do you think it was that Jan said it to you? Was it his conviction? Was it the right thing at the right time? Because I, I promise you someone else would tell you believe in yourself and you were like, well, that's not helping.

Well, yeah, I think it's, it's walking the walk and understanding that and realizing that, like, I forget, I forget the context of the whole race, but like, I don't think that every moment of the race the prior day, Jan had thought he was going to win and he won. And so like, when you're like, someone has, like, someone understands, someone knows. And I think that that's like the greatest gift you can give someone is like understanding them and knowing. Like, it's kind of like, also, I don't know how it hit me immediately. I don't remember that because I do know in like in Dubai, my dad told me something. He said you said it falsely. So he threw you under the bus. And I am like, I like, I literally told him, I'm like, that is not happening as I'm like riding by him. And then like a little, like maybe 5 minutes later, I'm like, that's actually a really good idea. So that's the other thing. I come around to things, but if you want action in the moment, It's different from like, like action over and like, and just like going back to things because there were also moments in that Milwaukee race where I didn't believe, but then like you find it again.

And would you say like in terms of when a platitude lands or sticks is, and the context of that, because I think it's important, like a lot of people want to motivate and help motivate, but it doesn't land or it's not helpful. Do you think like it's really helpful if someone's walked a mile in your shoes or like really understands what you're going through and then offers advice? Do you think that's part of it?

Yeah, I think when it's like, when it's unique, like when it's tailored to you, not like, pun intended, when it's like, so when it's like, when it's unique, tailored to you and like very like specific, those are when they hit. It's not just like, like if you could apply it to every race that year, like, okay, maybe that's your theme, maybe that's like an inside joke. But if it's like you told someone like to run with an open heart and that hit well, and that was like within the context of what was going on. And if you told that to him the year before, I don't know what place he got in Kona the year before. Like it might not have had the same effect. Yeah. So there's like, the timing and the understanding and like, what, like, and also, cause also like, what have you just been through? And what have you, what have you done to get to that start line such that like, this will be meaningful.

Yeah. And that's probably empathy and trust because like, if the person's, and I hate, well, not hate, you know, I think you gotta be careful of empathy. I think it's a misread or misunderstood word where people say, oh, I'm an empath and take all these feelings on. Um, you know, but I think empathy is more being able to sit with someone and hold a safe space for them and be on the same level as them. But it's not sympathy, you're not feeling sorry for someone.

Yeah, like not pity. Yeah, more like, I see you, I hear you, I understand.

Yeah, so then that wouldn't be, you know, like a superficial platitude, like Jan knows exactly what you're going through, went through the same I'm saying yes today, it's kind of resonating with you. Yeah. And it lands well. Yeah.

You know, but like, you got this. But I also think that like, you got to understand that I think probably the most successful platitudes, if we're going to call them, also like we feel things from other people. And so if Jan is saying something or just, we're not going to say it. Like if someone is saying something because they want to be that person who made your race and turned things around. That's never gonna land well. I'm sorry.

You're like, you, but you're very sensitive.

I don't think it's gonna, I don't think it's gonna land well with anyone. Because if you're concerned about being the person, the singular person in like a world where like sometimes people will say like, oh, like tell me like, oh, they care about me like more than anyone in in the world. And I'm like, well, I think my parents do. Like, unless you're my mom or my dad, like, you really, you're not winning that battle. Sorry. You can, they win. And it's been since like before I was born even. Like, and so yeah, like, but wanting to be like, but like, if you want to help the person and you're like, you're okay with, you know what, this could help or they could discard it and you have no feelings. If it helps, great. And if it doesn't, no harm, no foul. That's when it's going to land. Probably not speaking from direct experience, but hypothetically. What's the recent one that's landed well with me, do you think? From my side with you? Yeah. Or not directly from you, but even on my team.

And well, it's interesting, like whatever Dan says, you really do take to heart. Yeah, sometimes with me, if I say something, it takes a while, like a year. In fact, a strategy would be now I'll say to you, I'm bringing this up now so that at least it's not a foreign concept for when we do start working.

Yeah, you do. Like you'll say like, well, tight to the— but like, I think the concept of like even this fall, like holding my goals lightly. Yeah. Like that really resonated and that was really pertinent and relevant. So that was something. Like you just don't know what's going to land when. But if you're trying to like jam it down and make it land, like it's also, I think it's also coming up. From a place like the basis of trust that we talked about. Like, it's demonstrating, okay, so like Jan's belief, for example. Like, I don't know, like, that, like, it felt like there was, like, because he'd gone through it, there was somehow some trust that, like, I could do it too. And so, like, just like this random, like, oh, trust the process, or like, believe in yourself, or whatever, like, I don't know, like, you have to have, like, I guess, the respect and trust mutually.

That's a very good answer.

You make me think a lot about these platitudes. But so, has anyone ever told you, like, I don't think something's going right in your world, and you've had to make a change?

I know it sounds weird, but I think I was extraordinarily short on role models that saw me for a long time. Now I'm very, very blessed. I seem to have extraordinarily amazing people appearing in my life and mentor. I've, I have had mentors along the way, um, you know, as, as an intervention. I don't think— I'll give you an example. My brother told me I needed therapy. I need to go to therapy. And it hit me harder that he said that because, like, what do you mean? Like, I don't need therapy. And also I thought it came from a bit of a place of judgment, or, you know, you, you 'You need mental help.' You know, in South Africa, like, we don't just sort of go to therapy.

I like California, you know.

And I took it personally, and then I was kind of offended, you know. But what landed much better was, you know, he told me he'd gone through 6 months of therapy and he found it extraordinarily helpful. And then that was totally different. Then I was like, 'Oh, wow.' 'Wow, okay.' And then I think that started me on like some serious introspection and serious, like, me thinking about how, how much sort of I carried from my past and how much it was affecting my behavior and how, how important it was to deal with that. So yeah, there have been, um, but you could be very, very careful who you take advice to from now, you know. Um, but now, now it's, I don't know, like the rules change. I think you're experiencing this as you've grown, evolve, and you kind feel more secure and self-confident. And, and we understand that this is a way— the more you think you know, then suddenly you're going to go down in the pit of despair and realize you know nothing and have a bit of an existential crisis, probably. Um, but I do think like you get to, you get to a point where suddenly you start having really high net worth or high value interactions with human beings, and then that's when the drama and the platitudes and the superficial conversations and comments start really, really falling away. And so I'm, I'm seeking that now, and I'm very lucky. I mean, I went and spent a wonderful week with Sheikh Sultan, who's just an amazing human. You know, Rangan found me on YouTube and we had a great chat. And you know, I'm just— I've got these really cool people showing up in my life and believing in me and seeing in me and telling me to, to do more of what I do. Because it's not always that way. A lot of people really don't like what I have to say and why I say it, and I'm strongly opinionated about how wrong I am. So it's nice to have really influential or experienced people, or I think deep thinkers with really good perspective, valuing what I say and wanting more from what I'm saying and asking me for my advice. That's extraordinary, very healing and very empowering. I think I told you before, I— when I first met you, it was abundantly clear just how big your heart was, how big your dreams were.

Um, but you did an imitation of me about a week or two ago. You did a walking imitation.

I don't think I would have done that when I first met you.

I might not have looked I wasn't for a few years.

You weren't a pushover, that's for sure.

Took your time. But I also wasn't like, yeah, I didn't stand my ground either. No, you did. Yes and no. It's coming more now. I think there's like something this summer. It was like the Order of Eikos, which is like, I'm going to say that wrong, which is like walk with me. And I think that's a crucial piece that you talk about in our relationship is that you'll always be there. And it's like a calming presence when you're next to me on a run or there, but it's very much like a walking beside relationship. And so as a movement specialist, it's interesting that you use the term walk and not— it's not running beside you. No. Yeah, exactly. It's walking. But that might be down the wrong angle than you wanted. That's on my Instagram handle. What, Walk With Me?

Yeah. Really? Yeah, it was before there, before summer. Oh, well, yeah. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I, I, you know, just to paraphrase it, I feel Taylor is courageous, brave, which is not the same as courageous, intelligent, And creative. I, I don't know. Taylor's, um, like I say, is, uh, I, I said this the other day, I said you were a lot, and, and I mean that. I think you show up with— no, you, you, you, you know, you're just a large presence with big goals, big dreams, and you, you, whatever you do, you do with a depth and vigor that's extraordinary and inspiring. And so, you know, You love hard, train hard, feel hard. The highs are high, the lows are low. I think you live it extraordinarily. You live, you know, so I don't really know how to put all that in a bundle, but it's amazing. And getting to express that in a safe way in kind of chaotic world. And if I can be some part of walking with you and helping you frame and shape that lotness, I think it's, um, it's a privilege to have the faith and trust from you, and it's a privilege to know you. And my life has certainly improved and changed and deepened since I've met you, and you make me pull my socks up and work on myself. And I got a lot to think about after this podcast.

I'm sorry, because I feel like you allow me to express it, and that's the thing, and that's like Like I would describe you as very joyous and caring and smart and intelligent and very much a role model, but not preachy. Just like you say, this is how you can live and you kind of open up the universe and show it and kind of like what's possible. It's liberating. Actually, that's probably why, we'll go back to our podcast of like, why it's been liberating in life. So I guess life-changing. That's a catalyst. Yes, whatever word you'd like to use.

That was really cool to be a fly on the wall at that conversation. Normally I'm the host of the podcast, and now I just let it up to them to work their magic, and it totally happened. Thanks for tuning in and for making it all the way to the end. Hope you enjoyed this conversation. It was definitely different. Me not being the host and just sitting on the sidelines over there. But I really loved watching all of the magic unfold over there. And I can't wait to actually listen to more conversation between Taylor and Laurence. I know Laurence is going more into the podcasting on his own YouTube channel too, so make sure to tune in there as well. Thanks for watching. Several different more podcast episodes in the works. Was there one thing that stood out to you from this episode? Let us know in the comments below. Very curious to hear. Have fun out there on your runs, guys. By now, I should probably actually say have fun out there on your runs, on your bikes, and on your swims. Yeah. All right. Have fun out there on your bikes, swims, and runs.

Later.