Training Like A Hybrid Athlete, Running & Strength Training with Matt Choi

I think the best way for me to put it, Flores, is that in my opinion, a hybrid athlete is someone that's hard to kill. Someone that's capable of doing a lot of things well. Maybe not the best. I won't ever think that a hybrid athlete's gonna be the next Eliud Kipchoge because it's not specialized enough. It also won't be a sprinter, right? But the ability to run far, run fast, jump high, lift weights, that to me is what a hybrid athlete is. It's someone that is capable of doing a multitude of things. Not just specialize in one category, but the simplest term and something I always tell myself and tell other people is you want to be hard to kill, period.

Hi there, my name is Floris Geurman. Welcome to another episode of The Extra Mile Show. Today's guest is Matt Choi. He is a Korean-American hybrid athlete combining endurance and strength. He is also an entrepreneur and a content creator with large audiences on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. He surely has made a lot of running and strength videos out there. In this conversation, we discuss how to structure your training as a hybrid athlete, mistakes that he sees many athletes make in training, and how to set yourself up for long-term success in training, racing, and everyday life. This episode is brought to you by PATH Projects. The main reason that I like these shorts is that they are separate shorts from the baseliners, so the shorts can ride up and down while the baseliner stays in place, and it actually wicks away moisture. It virtually eliminates all everything. And you can save 10% off your order of Path Projects gear at pathprojects.com/flow. That is p-a-t-h-projects.com/f-l-o. This episode is also brought to you by Element. Element is an electrolyte drink mix that has everything that you need and nothing that you don't. So there's plenty of sodium, potassium, and magnesium, and no sugar. I typically start my day drinking a large glass of water of about 500 liter, so half a liter, and I add one package of LMNT. It helps me rehydrate, it helps me with my focus and with my physical performance. Increasing my electrolyte intake has made a noticeable difference in my energy levels. No more brain fog and improved quality of sleep. Sometimes after harder or longer workouts, I would get a brain fog or like a headache in the morning, and this no longer happens either. LMNT has a no BS, no questions asked return policy, so you can try it for an unlimited amount of time, and if you don't like it, you can ask for your money back. You can even keep the box. That's how confident they are that you will love it. Go to drinklmnt.com/flow to get a free sample pack of 8 flavors with any order. This offer can be used multiple times. That is drinklmnt.com/flow. F-L-O. See also the link in the description. Hope you enjoy my conversation with Matt Choi. Awesome. Welcome to the Extra Mileage Show. Excited you're here.

I'm super pumped to be here, Floris. Thank you so much for having me.

Absolutely. Let's start at the beginning. Like, what is your age and how long have you been running?

I'm 28 years old. I've been running pretty seriously for like the past 2 years, probably. And prior to that, I was a former college athlete. I played college football. I played over at Monmouth University in New Jersey. Flores, that was like my background as an athlete, right? It's like a lot of football, right? Which is speed and agility and change of direction, explosiveness and power. And I never would have imagined myself running a lot of endurance miles and marathons and ultras. But it's been such an amazing journey for me to kind of tap into this space and this community. And it's been life-changing, honestly.

What a difference that is indeed. And it's been really awesome to actually watch your journey because you document a lot of your runs on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube and just seeing that progression. Like, you really have progressed so much even in just a 2-year period over here. So I'm curious to hear from when you just started out to now, like, do you have any advice for athletes who are in the earlier stages of their running journey? Like, some of the things that you wish 2 years ago that you would have known?

Yeah, I think the first thing is having a mindset of patience. As you start to get into this activity. And this hobby is something where a lot of people say it's the cliché of life is a marathon, not a sprint. And so many people, whether they see a content creator, they see Kipchoge or someone that might inspire them, they might want to start running immediately and they want to get into it very fast. And I think if someone can actually take this piece of advice of practicing patience, it's by far, Floris, the number one thing that running has taught me. It's to instill it not just in running, but in everything else I do in this world. But that would be the number one thing. And I think something tactical for someone to take is to start with their runs at an easy pace, building their base. That would be the foundational mistake that I made when I first got into it. Because, Forrest, every run I did was like a tempo run. I would try to run fast. And I realized that my body hadn't adapted yet. My tissue tolerance and my limbs and my joints weren't ready to take on that speed and that much volume. And it led to shin splints and plantar fasciitis. And these are injuries that typically happen from overuse. So that would be my number 1 tip is to instill patience. And then the tactical tip is to run much slower and finding that conversational base building pace so that you can then increase your volume over time. And then in addition to threshold work, which in this example would be like speed work.

How did that transition go for you from— you were used to training pretty intense, high intensity during the football, like you were doing a lot of sprinting, and then all of a sudden you want to get into running and the distances increased. What was that like for you at the beginning of this, at the beginning stages that you had to slow down a lot? How was that mentally and physically for you?

Mentally, I think it was actually harder than it was physically, Floris, because to your point, in football, we're measured on how much we can— the actual numbers. How fast are you? How high can you jump? How much can you squat? How much can you bench? So everything is a quantitative thing. When you're in running and especially in endurance, it's a lot more of a feeling, right? It's something that it's hard to really put on paper, but it's a feeling. And I think it was hard for me to adjust my mindset around, like, hey, let me not focus on my pace. Let me just focus on how I'm breathing, how I'm feeling after my runs and all of those things. So that for me was the biggest challenge. And as I got more into it and as I started to kind of really lay down my foundation, I started realizing, I'm like, oh, I need to lay a foundation down first. It's like building a house. If you build it with a weak foundation, then at some point it's going to fall, right?. And that's kind of how I thought about my training. But at first, the initial adjustment was like, I need to go out fast. I need to go see how quickly I can run. But quickly I realized that it wasn't sustainable and I needed to find a routine that I can build upon because I was dealing with a lot of chronic pain because my muscles and my limbs and my joints weren't used to this type of activity.

When I'm looking at your your different channels. I see you're running quite a bit, but you're also doing quite a bit of strength training and lifting. Let's talk about the hybrid athlete for a bit here, because realistically, that's how I see you, and that's what you often talk about as well.

So what—

for those listening who might not be that familiar, can you just explain the basic fundamentals of what is a hybrid athlete and how would anyone listen go about this?

I think there's a lot of models of the hybrid athlete nowadays flourish. To me, a hybrid athlete is someone that is capable of running far, running fast, someone that could also lift weights, pick things up, functional things as well, like having mobility, having elasticity, right? So having the ability to do plyometrics. So I think there's a couple of different models. When I first thought of the hybrid athlete, it was from Nick Bare. Nick Bare's approach is a lot more from the bodybuilding world mixing in with endurance sports. Nick is a lot bigger than me, like, muscularly. But I think for me, because I came from the athlete background, Floris, for me, mobility was important. Elasticity, being pliable, being able to hop and jump and land in a movement pattern that was efficient was important for me as a quote unquote hybrid athlete. I think the best way for me to put it, Flores, is that in my opinion, a hybrid athlete is someone that's hard to kill, someone that's capable of doing a lot of things well, maybe not the best. I won't ever think that a hybrid athlete is going to be the next Eliud Kipchoge because it's not specialized enough. It also won't be a sprinter, right? But the ability to run far, run fast, jump high, lift weights. That to me is what a hybrid athlete is. It's someone that is capable of doing a multitude of things, not just specialize in one category. But the simplest term and something I always tell myself and tell other people is you want to be hard to kill, period. And if the world was coming to an end, you don't want to be someone that can just run very far. You also want to be someone that has to maybe lift weights. Like, you have to pick things up or carry things or do farmer carries or wear a rucksack. So to me, being a hybrid athlete is someone that's hard to kill.

And I think it's even if we're talking about healthy aging, at the end of the day, it even goes through my mind sometimes when you are looking at marathon runners who solely focus on running, running, running and might neglect the whole strength training because of fear of bulking up too much. I am wondering indeed, like, oh yeah, once you start getting well into your 40s, 50s, 60s and you start to lose more muscle mass at some point, there's so many benefits to having enough muscle to support your body over there too. So yeah, it's one thing from an athletic performance, but also from a healthy aging performance perspective as well, right?

I mean, 100%. I mean, typically when, when people get older, like their bone density decreases. And the best thing to do is actually to do some form of strength training or resistance training in some capacity. Now, when you just run, your body is obviously— it's maximizing its cardiovascular system. But when people start to have weak bone density, they get very fragile, right? So you get injured easier. And if you fall down, you're more susceptible to dealing with some form of an injury. So I think it's something that, to your point, Forrest, strength training for most humans in general is a great routine to have in their day-to-day life. Now, you don't need to go be a bodybuilder, but you also don't need to just only run or only swim. I think having a balance, and I think that's really where this conversation goes, is finding the balance that works for each individual. Like Forrest, my goal is not to run anywhere close to an Olympic qualifying time. I want to be a competitive runner in my own world and what it means to be competitive for me. But that also involves me doing strength training because when I first got into running, I didn't want to look like a traditional marathon runner. I told myself that. So I knew that the strength component was going to be a factor. I also am much heavier than most marathon runners, and it's something that I want to be able to challenge myself to be able to keep my muscle in addition to also running these races. And for me, the balance has— that's been my balance. And it might not fit for everyone, but I think more people are realizing that they're not suitable to be just a marathon runner, and they want to find the balance of having muscle but also challenging themselves in these endurance activities.

Totally. Well said there. How would you structure some of your training weeks? Like, in what sort of way would you go about that? Because there's several times a week I see you in the gym and I see you running quite a bit. So how do you make sure that, yeah, you alternate it enough, you have enough recovery in between? Um, talk, talk about that a bit more.

Yeah, I think like my typical splits have been 5 to 6 days of running and then 3 to 4 days in the gym Mixing the gym with Pilates and yoga. So I would say like this, there's 3 days dedicated that I'm following a program that my coach wrote for me where it's specific training in the gym, a lot of lower body stuff, a lot of hinging movements, squatting movements, single leg stuff, plyometrics. And then there's a day throughout the week where I'll do a form of Pilates or yoga where I'm doing a lot of lengthening. Or for Pilates, it's like working very small muscles, right, that you don't typically get when you're doing compound lifts. The running itself is kind of my base. That's what the training is for. All the stuff outside of the running is more for support for running. So I think for me, it typically works where some days I'm doubling up. If I'm running 5, 6 days a week, I typically run in the morning, and then I'll do a lift, a workout in the afternoon after I've fueled myself properly and allowed my body to rest and recover and repair itself. I also believe in recovery. I think that's the one thing, Forrest, that I do a really good job of outside of just the actual physical part of working out. It's the one thing that most people struggle with, whether it's getting enough sleep or eating enough nutrition, having the nutrition in place to eat a gram per pound of body weight so you're repairing your tissues and your muscle fibers are having time to heal. And I think that's something for runners that a lot of runners struggle with. A lot of humans struggle to get enough protein in their system. To actually repair the tissue. And I think it's something that over the time I've been able to do this. Obviously, I've had a background in strength training. I've lifted weights for a very long time when it came from football. And it was one of those things that I've kept that ingrained in my system. And I formerly was a personal trainer as well. So I have knowledge when it comes to kinesiology and nutrition and movement. And I've continued to just sharpen the sword of learning more and being curious to learn from experts. My coach is a former decathlete Olympian. His name is Trey Hardy, and he's the one that designed my strength program because for a long time, Forrest, I kind of did it on my own. But I like the idea of just being a student and just, hey, you tell me what I need to do. You have more of an expertise in this space of being very durable, being very mobile and strong and fast.. In that sense, a lot of it more recently has been being a student again and taking coaching when it's needed.

That whole recovery component is such a key one, especially when you're stacking running and strength training there. It's interesting to hear you say that you typically run in the morning and then do strength training in the afternoon with enough time in between to recover or at least to refuel. I definitely want to have a conversation about fueling in a little bit, but before we do, Tell me a bit more about what mistakes you see some people make as a hybrid athlete. What are some challenges that people run into? What are some things that you have seen? Because I know that you live in that world quite a bit.

I think some mistakes people make for us is like stacking up maybe multiple hard days in a row, right? Whether it's like having your threshold workout on a Tuesday and then trying to lift legs heavy on a Wednesday. I think it's actually better off for someone to stack up hard workouts in the same day because then you have more hours. Because really the recovery comes when you sleep. And I think, Forrest, that's one thing where most people don't realize. It's like, hey, yes, eating the protein is good, but if you're not getting enough sleep to actually let the tissues repair and to recover, then it's going to be very challenging regardless. I think what I've seen work well for people is stacking up hard run workouts with hard lifting days together and using the same day to then allow your body longer hours to recover. Other things that I think people struggle with is finding the balance of doing both. People then start to— if they have been lifting more and then they incorporate running in, when you start to getting nagging injuries, for us, it gets discouraging mentally. And you don't know how to balance, oh, do I just take off days or do I replace my running with a different form of cardio? Do I replace the running with just strength training or mobility or just not running in general? And I think it's when people get small injuries, it then discourages them because their focus is in the weight room. And I think there needs to be a conversation for anyone that wants to be a hybrid athlete. It's asking yourself, what's more important? Is it the running? Or is it the strength? And once you answer that question, I think it better determines how you can solve the adversity that comes your way, because there will be adversity when you train to this magnitude. But it's understanding what is the most important thing. And I think once you answer that, then you'll be able to determine, like, hey, if I'm dealing with this injury or if I'm not feeling as well, I think I should get rid of a strength workout instead of getting rid of a running day. Because if you want a specific marathon time. But if you're just running just because you're trying to get into the activity, like, I think the, the opposite of could be true as well, to focus on strength and ditch one of the running days and don't beat yourself up too much.

Totally, totally. And, and the part earlier when you said strength training and harder workout for running in the same day, I'm in the same camp over there because I also feel if you're doing that if you have, let's say, 2 high-intensity workouts in the week and you also do your strength training on those days, that also means some of the other days you can really have the easy days be easy, right? So it's not— because even when you have a strength day and you do a pretty hard strength session and you do a low-intensity run, you still had quite a bit of stress on the body and on the mind that you have to recover from. So even your low-intensity run day, still kind of became a high-intensity run to some, or like high-intensity day to some extent. And so I think stacking those, that the, the harder days truly become hard enough and then the recovery day is recovery enough.

I couldn't agree more. And I think something I'll add to that, Floris, is like, to your point, I didn't realize the difference between an easy run and an actual recovery run. And I think for someone listening to this to really understand the difference, like Everyone talks about easy pace, like 80/20 rule and all those things. Yeah, your easy pace should be conversational, should be talkative, something that you can actually hold a conversation. Your heart rate is under a certain amount based on your age. But then when you think about recovery run, it's even slower than your easy pace. And I think it's hard for people to contextualize what that means. It should be so slow, so boring that you're almost questioning, Is it even worth me being out here type of thing? And that was a big pivot for me too, Floris, when I was training for sub-3, where I was like, oh, shit. I just did a 10-mile workout on a Saturday on the track. On a Tuesday. I'm sorry. On a Tuesday on a track, a weekday. And the Wednesday workout would be a super recovery run. Really easy, really chill. It should be brainless. Those days allowed my body to still move, collect miles, but it allowed it to really recover. And I think a lot of people, they let their ego get in the way of like, I'm going so slow, this isn't benefiting me. But allowing your body to actually rest and utilize the blood flow and oxygen getting into your legs to recover is by far one of the biggest secrets I think that a lot of people when they're starting don't really understand.

The people who get to mile 20 and the wheels fall off, they do understand.

That's true.

That's true.

Exactly.

And I think we have all been there. Can you mention one race that went really well that you felt things were clicking? And when you look back at that race, how did that race day unfold for you?

Can you mention one example? Yeah, I think the best one I could think of is when I qualified for Boston at the Tunnel Vision last year. And I ended up running a 2:57 in Florence. It wasn't a perfect race, but I felt like a lot of things were going my way. The course was very favorable. The weather was perfect. Training in Austin, you're dealing with heat and humidity pretty much year round, maybe 10 months out of the year. And then going to Seattle where it was 55 to start, it almost felt like winter. And you couldn't really ask for a better day to run. And then to PR, it felt like I had been there before. When you're training and your process of getting ready for a race almost is more challenging than the race itself, you know you're in a good spot. And that's how I felt that day where I was just— I felt comfortable. I was looking at my splits. I was looking at my time. I wasn't breathing that heavily. I was very on pace. And it was one of those moments where I felt like the hours I put in prior, the 16 weeks of the training program that I went into it, I was like, yo, it felt smooth. I had to take a bathroom break at mile 11, and that was the one hiccup throughout the whole race where I was like, please, I hope that this does not risk my chance of actually hitting this time. And I obviously had 2.5 minutes to spare, and I think I probably would've been closer to the 55, 56 range if I didn't take that break, but it just felt like a good run. And I think for runners that start to get into this, you'll understand what I mean by that. The reason I respect the marathon distance, Forrest, is that there's so many things that are outside of your control. You can train, quote unquote, as best as possible and buy into the process of training, but some days you just don't have it. And I think it's the beautiful part of doing multiple marathons. Anyone could just do it one time, but the challenge of continuing to try to beat your time or even to run another race, that's the beauty of it. Because every time you come up to that race line, that start line, you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know how your body's going to respond. You don't know if the nutrition was right. You don't know if you slept enough or maybe the weather just wasn't favorable that day. And I think it's the beautiful part of it because you always have to show up to the challenge.. And it's easy to sit on the high horse of qualifying Boston one time or running a marathon one time, but the challenge of continuing to do it, I think, is what I enjoy the most thing about the marathon.

Totally. And every race day we learn something new again, and every training cycle we pick up new things again. And I think once you go into a race too confident, you often get your ass handed to you too. Sometimes like a long run can be a humbling experience, but a race day in particular can be a humbling experience. So talk to me about that. Have you had any races that didn't go according to plan, and how did you deal with that mentally and physically?

I love this. I mean, one thing that I think just comes top to mind is even when I ran the Houston Marathon this year, which ended up being the race that I got referred to as the bib mule, my goal for this race floor— so there's two parts to this, the physical component, of my goal was to run 2:50 at this race. I really wanted to set a major PR for us, really. I think I was in 2:53, 2:54 shape, but it was a really hot day in Houston. I felt like I wasn't in— the heat really got to me. And in Houston, it's always hit or miss. Some days it could be 50s, other days it gets up to the 70s and you really feel yourself sweating. So I ended up running sub-3 at this race, but it was like 2:59, barely hitting sub-3. And it was like the opposite feeling of the day when I ran the tunnel vision. And I felt like it was a hard effort to run sub-3, and the heat just got to me. I didn't feel like I was rolling on all cylinders. Now, in addition, it's a pretty flat course in Houston. The last 10Ks, a little bit of rolling hills, but nothing too crazy. I think it's still a great course for someone to go PR, but it just didn't go my way. And after the fact, I was documenting a video and I told everyone that was in my community, I said, this is part of life. You make a goal for yourself and sometimes you achieve it and sometimes you don't. But the last thing you should do is beat yourself up because you don't hit a time. I think that's really my message, Flores, with anyone that wants to get into running. You should do it for the beautiful part of running. Hitting goals and PRs and qualifying for Boston, these are great things. But if you get your identity lost in getting validated by just hitting a time, I think you lose the pure love and the sport of it all, which is the fact that you're even capable of doing this. So many people wish that they have the capabilities of running a marathon.. And I think at times when we only look at a time, we lose track of that. So that was my message to anyone in my community of like, guys, it's good at times to set a challenging goal and not achieve it. And I think the best part about it is how you respond to yourself. How you treat yourself is the true lesson and reflection that you should take away from it, not the time that you get. And I think that was my message. And then on top of that, Floris, I'm sure you heard of it that time of the year as well. Then I was ridiculed for being a bib mule. And I had to deal with the controversy of dealing with cynicism and negativity from the running community because I didn't realize that this was going to be that big of a deal. And obviously, I have grown a ton, Floris, and learned so much about myself of dealing with negative criticism and dealing with feedback that wasn't positive. So much of my content, Floris, is positive.

It's uplifting. That's how I always see you.

Right?

Yeah.

So for me to deal with that ridicule, it was a true test of my own character. Of am I really about what I preach? And even in those moments of a low, Floris, I was never beating myself up too much because my intention was not what that article was talking about. So even for as hard as it was for me to deal with, I knew as a man that I could live with my own actions and the results of my actions because I knew that that's not my intent. And the layers of all of that, Floris, like beginning of the year, It was tough to deal with, but by far one of the most proudest moments of me in my social media career of like, oh, shit, I need to deal with negative feedback and criticism now. But how do I deal with this? Because now I'm not just getting admiration and love and positive feedback, I'm getting the opposite end. And it was a true test of just my own character in those moments.

It really is. It is one thing of how do you talk to yourself when things go well? When things go according to plan, when you're able to get out the door, you feel like you have wind in the back, you have a good race and things go well. How do you deal with yourself when the days are darker, it's colder outside, or you experience injuries, you experience certain challenges, or then there's the whole social media component to it all. So, yeah, it is that internal dialogue that we have with ourselves is everything. And I'm not going to lie, like sometimes, like, so I'm a running coach myself too. Like, I coach people in our personal best running program, and we often talk about being kind to yourself. And it is so easy for me to tell other people, oh yeah, like, yeah, like whether it's cheering people up or providing like the support system or anything like that. But once I start looking at when sometimes my own wheels fall off and how I can beat myself up internally. I have to sometimes snap out of it. Here's one example. Yesterday I was going to go to the track at whatever, 3:00 in the afternoon. Had like a bunch of meetings in the morning, but several things in the meetings, like customer support things going south with the printer going— my Oura Ring died. Like the printer didn't want to connect, literally Everything just— it was just one of those shitshow days, you know what I mean? Yeah. Went to the track and I was like, yeah, I'm going to go run on the track. I wasn't feeling 100%. I wasn't feeling like— but I was like, well, I haven't done any speed work. It's Wednesday. I kind of want to get out. I arrive at the track and like the body was feeling like 95, like 90%. I arrived there and there's a full-on ceremony with a marching band and 500 people. I'm like, all right, this is the sign. I'm just going to call it a day. So I jogged back home, ended up doing 3.5 miles. And then this morning I ended up doing a killer speed session and it felt all good and well. So it was just in that moment that I had to decide, like, let's be kind to myself and let's stop beating myself up and just be realistic. This is a stressful day and I just got to be kind to myself here.

Of course, I love that example and I love that that's like I love that you share that with your community because I think it's something that it's very hard for people. And it's almost a muscle that you have to train and develop. I think running has taught me to be more kind to myself because as I've entered this sport where I'm not an expert, I don't know everything about it. So you have to come in with a level of humility and come in with a student mindset of being growth-oriented and wanting to learn and figure out Hey, it's okay not to have all the answers, but the internal dialogue that you have is what life is all about, really. And it has now bled into everything I do, whether it's content or partnerships or business. And I think that ability to not beat yourself up too much is something that a lot of people need to practice more of. And I think it comes from a place of having self-love and self-awareness of who you are and understanding what makes you tick and what doesn't. But it's something that I think a lot of runners struggle with because I meet so many people that at the finish line, if someone comes and interacts with me or they don't, or if I just talk with people, you see a lot of people that are discouraged or they're beaten, they're mad because they didn't hit the time. They lose track of the fact that they just completed 26.2 miles, which 1% of the world ever completes. There should be flowers that are given to those people as well of like, hey, you didn't hit it today,, but that doesn't mean that's forever. There's always another opportunity as long as you tell yourself those things. And I think we live in a world right now where everyone wants the result. Everyone wants to hit the time or be having, getting admiration in certain ways. And I think that there needs to be a larger conversation happening with being kind to yourself and not having that negative internal dialogue.

And indeed thinking long term too, like thinking instead of this race, focus on the whole process. Indeed. And I think sometimes for me, one thing that's, that's quite helpful is when I'm doubtful of where I am in my training or where, where, where things are heading. Sometimes I just go back and I realize, like, gee, I've been putting in, like, a lot of training, like, over the last, whatever, 6 months or 12 months or however much. It's the consistency that counts. It's not that one killer workout. Indeed. And if you don't like, don't beat yourself up indeed over that finishing time. It's the whole process, the months of work, and you grow again through all of those experiences, especially those negative ones.

So I kind of like having, like, the adversities. Like, I kind of crave it, Floris. Like, I kind of like it in a weird, twisted way. It's like, it took me 4 marathons to qualify for sub-3. I hit a 3:08, 3:05, and like, I was just on the brink and I never had a proper set of training. But to your point, Forrest, it also makes a better story. It's awesome being able to call your shot like Babe Ruth and say, I'm going to hit this home run right here. I'm going to run a sub-3. I'm going to run sub-3:30, whatever. But people get bought into that fact of like, oh, he's human. It doesn't just come so easy for him. The struggle of the journey, I think, is why most people get bought into a story, whether it's an athlete or an underdog story or any of those things.. And I think more people leaning into that, they'll start to realize that they'll enjoy the process more when they stop putting so much pressure on them to execute a certain time.

Totally, totally. Sometimes I hear in the early stages of running journeys or like athletic journeys, not even running, it can be cycling, can be swimming, can be, can be anything really, is like, oh yeah, I'm starting out with it. I'm all excited.. And then after 4 weeks or 6 weeks or 8 weeks, that excitement or the motivation kind of fades a little bit. Do you have any advice for athletes experiencing that?

Like, how would you go about that? I think what people need to find is joy in the discipline, not the motivation. A lot of days, Forrest, I'm not motivated to go run, but I know that true freedom comes through form of discipline. And that would be my piece of advice is that you should stop trying to chase motivation because if that's the case, then just go watch a David Goggins video and you'll probably get motivated. But like, Flores, how long will that take for that to diminish? So I think for more people, it's falling in love with the art, the journey of it. And I get it. Sometimes it's not fun. If you hate running, there's actually power in leaning into that. I think it's actually the conversation again of like, yeah, I get that it's not the most fun. I get that it's not comfortable. But sometimes the biggest growth that people go through is through the discomfort. It's through uncomfortable things. I think the conversation should be more, hey, I know that I'm not the best at this. I know that it's hard for me to put on the shoes. I look at it for 30 minutes and I'm dreading the thought of putting them on and going on this run. But I think if someone actually internalizes that messaging and that framework of, but I'm still going to show up, watch what that does over a 30, 60, 90, 120-day period of time, you'll start to realize that this level of freedom and discipline is going to start to bleed into everything that you do. And then it won't feel like, oh my God, I'm not motivated. You're just going to show up because it's part of what you do now. I think for anyone that's starting out in this, don't look for motivation because it's going to fade. I would lean into building something practical, something that is routine-like and building your discipline. I think in this format, it's self-discipline. I always talk about this all the time, Flores, because I came back from the football world, which is the truest team sport, 11 on 11. It requires everyone to do their job. It's easy to be disciplined when coaches and teammates are relying on you. It's so much harder in this space where you have to be self-disciplined. No one tells me to wake up in the morning and go run. No one tells me that I have to go strength training. I am choosing to do these things, and I think it's the highest form of self-discipline that anyone can create, which then curates into freedom. I think truly, Flores, most people in this world, they're not chasing after money. They're not chasing after time. They're not chasing after materialistic things. They want freedom of their life and their mind and their spirit and their body. And I think it's by far the highest currency that anyone can get. So I wouldn't tell someone to be motivated. I would say lean into finding discipline because that's how you'll get freedom.

Spot on. And I also think that whole part of at the beginning, it might be challenging. It's like at some point when you can start finding small wins, small momentum, it starts to become easier over time. It is, it is not that it would always be like that. And some days you feel stronger than other days. And just the whole part of maybe narrowing it down a little bit, maybe instead of going for an hour run, going for a 10-minute run or going for a walk or picking a form of running that you do find enjoyable, whether that is running group or whether that is running on the trails or whether like whatever that is that brings you joy and leaning into that part too.. And then over time it becomes easier and easier. And before you know it, you actually start craving it. And I think that part alone, once people have that transition from I hate running to, oh, this is actually really nice and it brings me joy.

And, and yeah, that transition is incredible to watch sometimes. I, I 100% agree. I think as much as I love David Goggins' Flourish, I know that it's not everyone's cup of tea. And I always talk about this mindset of I've had Goggins downloaded in my software, in my DNA. And I think when I first started running floors, it was like 60%, 70% of my software. Now I've decreased it and it's like 15%, 20%. It's still in me, but I know it's not practical for everyone. It's not practical for someone to go run 100 miles or to do the Goggins 4x4x48 challenge, even though I've been able to learn so much about myself through that process. For someone else on the other side of this screen, Flore, to your point, it's just starting with a walk jog for 10 minutes. Maybe it's just doing striders on a turf field where it's less impact on your joints because it's grass or it's turf. I think for anyone, it's exactly what you said. You don't have to lean so much into the discomfort and the hatred of it, but there's layers of finding something that works for you that's also slightly uncomfortable. I think to your point, starting with something 10 minutes, 5 minutes, something very practical that you can keep consistent is one of the most important things for people laying down their foundation. And as you start to build more confidence, then you can layer on some of these other challenges. But I 100% agree. When I first started, I think that my Goggins mindset for us was a little bit— it's not as appealing to a lot of people, if I'm being frank. And most people can't really get on board with that. But I think there's the mindset approach of it, not the actual actions that Goggins took that is important for people to understand. Of leaning into the discomfort, that growth comes from the uncomfortability and all of those things. And I think those things are very tried and true. And I think every human should have a little ounce of that type of mindset because it leads into a lot of growth and limitless potential.

Totally. I'm really with you on that one. And I think in particular, it is such a fine balance between pushing yourself, becoming comfortable with discomfort from time to time, and at the other hand, allowing enough time to recover, to, like, progress. Even this morning, going to the track and doing, like, I started with 8 times 200s, then 4 times 400s, and then 8 times 800. And it was all with just 1 minute in between. So the recovery was quite short. And towards the end, it was like, oh, this is challenging. I'm not going to lie, it was not necessarily that comfortable, but I also wanted to run, like, at a pretty high pace and, like, a pretty high effort level. I don't get there that often, but so it is. But yet after a while, that becomes more comfortable too, right? And so it's such a fine line over there. And yeah, whatever works for you there. Sometimes instead of— I've literally been at points in a race that I tried to go Dave Goggins on myself and it just didn't work for my mind at that time., and it was more like, I have to be kind to myself, or I have to tell myself, relax more instead of trying to go all tense and hard and all that.

So it's like, whatever works for you in that situation, right? I agree. I agree. I think there's moments to pull from different energy systems and energy sources, right? Even if we're speaking about the actual nutritional side of pulling from fat and carbohydrates and glucose, right? In your example, it's pulling some maybe less of the stay hard mindset of Goggins, and it's more leaning into more of a mindfulness, of a meditational practice of, hey, let me slow down my breath. Let me speak something more positive internally so I don't have to— that internalizes in a different way. I 100% agree that it's important to maybe test some of these things because every race is different, Flores. Sometimes those moments of grittiness and who's going to carry the boat mentality is good. But also on the flip end, if you're seriously going through an injury and you have severe pain, I don't suggest having that mindset. It's just because then we only get one body and then you're disrespecting it. So I think there's that fine balance of, all right, am I pushing enough or am I pushing too hard and I need to scale it back? And I think for anyone that does marathons or that runs in general or does anything challenge-wise, the thing I love about physical activity, Flores, is that every human understands their gauge of a challenge. What's a challenge for me might not be a challenge for someone else right next to me. But they understand when they go through a workout how much effort they really put in. No one else can question it. I don't know if someone gave it their all. Only they can know that. And I think the beautiful thing with physical activity is as humans, we have to self-assess ourselves. And that's why, once again, with the marathon, I love it because at the end of every race, there's something in our mind that's like, I had a little juice left, or I'm completely exhausted and I'm to the point where I might need an IV, I might need to get air. And I think for every human, it's finding that balance of when am I going to push it my all and when do I need to scale it back?

Absolutely. Absolutely. One bit, I was going through some of your older YouTube videos and I always find it interesting when I, when I'm preparing like an interview, it does like a journey that athletes go on. And about 3 years ago you made a video about changes you noticed in your body after taking creatine. And I thought, I thought this was an interesting one because funny enough, I started playing around with creatine about 6 months ago or 8 months ago and I noticed several things. So I'm curious to hear, like, can you briefly explain some of those initial things that you noticed and if you're still taking it? Because I have a few things to share from my end there as well.

I love it. And the thing I would— what I want to say before I answer this question is I love that video, Floris, because it shows the beauty of authentic and raw content. Totally. That video was made 2 and a half years ago at my mom's townhouse in Maryland. And it was filmed on an iPhone and edited on iMovie. Fast forward, Flores, I have a whole production team that handles my YouTube. I never touch it anymore. And Flores, I haven't had a video that has gone that many views, million plus views. And I think it just shows, and hopefully it inspires other people, that you don't need a whole team. You don't need the best equipment. You just need to start and be able to storytell. And it's an amazing thing. It humbles me at times. I also challenge my team. I'm like, guys, We have all this stuff now and we can't get better than the creatine video. Nonetheless, I'm a fan of creatine. I think it's something that's very tried and true. It's been around for decades. It's one of the most studied supplements on the market. Previously, there's all the benefits for your body when it comes to recovery and performance. Now a lot of scientists are realizing that, oh shoot, there's actually a cognitive function as well. It helps people with performance with cognitive approach. So I think that there's multitude of benefits with very few side effects. And I think for both men and women, it's something that it's very affordable and something that they can implement in their everyday routine. When I did that video, I was more looking because it was COVID and I wanted to seriously see how much impact and change that it would have on my physique. I was somewhat on and off with creatine prior. I took it through college, but then I kind of took a break off of it. And then as I saw some other creators on YouTube do the same challenge, I wanted to just see what could I do with just pull-ups, push-ups, squats. I didn't have access to a typical gym, so the workout routine I followed during that time was a lot of calisthenics, a lot of bodyweight stuff. But I still saw a lot of an improvement. To this day, Floris, I still take creatine almost daily. There's some days when I'm traveling, I don't have access to my creatine powder. I'm kind of inconsistent with it. But if I'm home in my routine in Austin, I almost always take creatine as just a daily dietary supplement.

So it's something that is in my routine in the current state. So for those listening, do you feel that creatine is helpful? You're a hybrid athlete, so you're lifting your running, do you feel it's helpful for runners like as in marathon runners as well?

Or do you feel it's more to help you like gain muscle strength and muscle mass? I mean, I think it's a, it's a mixture of both. I think a lot of people when they hear about creatine, they think like, oh, I'm going to gain weight because it's going to be water weight. Like the creatine itself, it holds water well. So a lot of people, they gain weight, but a lot of it is because their muscles are now getting filled out more. I think that it's kind of been debunked a little bit too by a bunch of different scientists and through data and stuff. But I think for me, Flores, there's a mixture of it helps with performance and recovery. So if I'm going out on a hard effort run on the track and then I'm going to get a hard effort in the gym, anything that I can find that will speed up recovery and have my legs feel fresher, I think is a win if you're a runner or if you're a hybrid or a strength person that's trying to lift weights. So I think that it's a multitude of things. It's not just like, oh, I'm going to get jacked and get big muscles. For me, it's more, oh, it's helping me be less sore the next day. It's helping my muscle and my tissues to repair itself. That to me is a win above all else. So that's kind of how I see it is more of like it's a two-pronged thing. It's helping with recovery, and it's also helping me keep muscle on. So I think for me, as a hybrid athlete, it works great in both assets. But I think if you're just a runner, there's a significant amount of benefits that it could help you with, even if you're not looking to put on muscle. In those 30 days, what did you notice weight-wise? Weight-wise? I mean, what I noticed was that I gained some weight. I think at the end of it, I gained like 5 or 6 pounds. Now, granted, I think when anyone does these challenges, Floris, it's always like they make it very skewed, right? Because even that picture I took was right after I did a workout. So when you look at the physique change, it's kind of jaded because I took a picture of myself and a video of myself when I was not flexing, when I was kind of just sitting there just like a normal day. And then if I take a picture right after a workout, right after getting a pump, clearly my muscles will be at a state that is more of a pump. So I think the biggest thing I noticed was that I was able to gain some weight and I still hover right around 190 pounds. And it's a comfortable weight for me where I'm able to continue to run and not hurt my joints or have any pain, which to me is the number one thing with running. And then I'm still able to lift and not lift to the strength that I was when I was playing football, but still hold a lot of my muscle mass. Um, but for me, I've always hovered around that range, high 180s to low 190s. So I didn't see like this drastic change, and I've kind of hovered around the same weight. So for me, Floris, it was a little bit—

I would say I gained some weight during that 30-day period, but it wasn't significant. One part that I want to share about the whole creatine was about 8 months ago, I started hearing Peter Attia talk about it a little bit more, like, oh yeah, I everyone should be taking creatine for the rest of their life kind of thing daily. And I was like, holy smack, what's going on here? So I, I had heard about it several times already, but I respect Peter Attia, I respect Andrew Huberman, and I'd been listening to them and it'd come up several times. And so just that part, I was like, okay, let me actually just start taking this. And it was, I just bought some and started taking at the time 5 grams a day. And I was like, all right, 5 grams a day, let me just do this. And it said something along the lines of, I think, 30 days you might not notice anything and like just keep taking it consistently. So all I did was add some of that powder like once a day in like my drink. And, and then I started noticing. So probably 10 years ago, my weight was about 175, 180. And that was before I got really into running. And then once I started running consistent, it dropped like to 150, 145. It had dropped significantly. And so it was always somewhere in the 145 to 150. And all of a sudden I started taking this and I started noticing over time, over like a few months period, I was like, oh yeah, I'm in the 150s now again. I'm like, oh, I haven't been there in a while. And then I became 152, 154. At one point it was 158. I was like, what's going on over here? It's just— and like, yes, I have a pull-up bar and I've been doing some pull-ups, but it wasn't that I was doing like— do some push-ups after the ice bath or like just But it's not that I'm excessive strength training yet. I felt like I was feeling like my size small shirts became size medium for some of the shirts. I was like, this is kind of different. But the interesting thing was that I didn't feel that my running was slowing down. I actually felt like a stronger runner. And that part in particular I found interesting. I'm like, I don't feel injury prone in any sort of way. Like, I feel the body is operating well. It's not just the upper body, but it's also the legs. Just I look down and I can see that my quads just seem bigger than previously. And it's like, yes, it might, might be the combination of increase in training volume in combination with eating some more protein or eating some like taking some creatine or what. Like it's probably a combination of things, but I seem to dial back a little bit because at some point, at one point I hit the scale and it was 162. I was like, all right, easy, easy there, tiger. I got Berlin coming up here. I went to, like, 2.5 grams or, like, 2 grams. Like, I kind of dialed it back a little bit. But right now, the weight is whatever, 156 or 157. It's kind of— it's finding this balance. But it doesn't seem like 145 or 150 to me seems very light now from where I'm feeling optimal. And it's one of those things how even the weight can change. And it doesn't always have to be like— I know endurance athletes sometimes aim for as low of a weight as possible to race fast. But we had the conversation with Ryan Hall about that too, that that's not always true. So you really want to watch out with the hormonal balance, with the increase in injury risk and all of it. But I just want to share that. That's amazing. I love that. What about— I do want to be respectful of your time over here. I have a few last questions. Talk to me about footwear, because I see you know quite a bit about footwear. And you have tried quite a few different shoes as well. So I'm just curious if anyone is listening and is trying to find a shoe that's right for them.

Do you have any high-level thoughts around that topic? Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing I always tell people and I always say is like, you know, get a, get a 3D scan of your foot, go to a local running shoe store, just get an idea of like, you know, are your feet the same size? Most people don't realize that one foot is a little bit bigger than the other. Do you pronate? Do you supinate? Do you have a neutral arch? There's so many things within the foot that I think a lot of people don't have an idea on. And it's easy to see me talk about the Nike Pegasus 40 or the Saucony Speed and be like, I want to go get that shoe. Matt's wearing it. I want to go get it. And it's super easy to do that. But every runner is different. Every runner has a different running gait, a running form that Maybe we don't strike the same way. So it would be ignorant to think that what works for one individual is going to work for you. I think of footwear kind of like a diet. It's all individualistic, and that's how every person should think about it. So if you're listening to this right now, like, if you live in a metropolitan city, there's probably a Road Runner store or Fleet Feet or a boutique running store that will be able to help analyze and give you some more insights on the type of shoe that you need. From there, there's the gamut of all these lovely brands, Floris, that there's so many goddamn brands now, which is such an amazing thing because running has gotten pretty cool. And for me, Floris, I'm the guy that wants the craziest color. I want neon. I want yellow, red, anything that is flashier because I feel like running was a sport that not many people were caring about style.. But now it's becoming the sport where you could wear fluorescent pink and yellow and it kind of is cool. Nonetheless, I've tested a lot of shoes. I've realized some that work better for me than others. And it's that process of going through training and going through marathons with them. For me to understand that the Nike Alphafly isn't the best for my foot because the midsole, the stack height is so high that it causes my Achilles to flare up is something that I only could know by running a marathon in them and then dealing with the injury. So now I found a good balance of I'm always in barefoot shoes when I'm not running. And I always talk about it on socials of, guys, you want to strengthen your feet. You want to make sure that your feet are mobile, your ankle mobility is really good because it's going to help you with running and stay injury-free. When I put my foot in these really high stack shoes, The angle of my foot is changing now. So I'm not just barefoot, I'm kind of slightly up, which then causes a lot of friction in my soleus and my Achilles tendon, which then causes irritation after running 26 miles. So I will never tell someone the shoe that they need to get. People ask me this question all the time, and I always answer it the same way, which I just told you of go get analyzed. From there, I always suggest I like I like some of the Nikes, I like some of the Sauconys, I like some of the Asics. And I think for people, I understand that I'm also fortunate. If I showed you my shoe wall right here, it would have every brand you could think of. Not everyone has the capabilities of testing this many shoes. So I think it's really important to get an analyzation of your shoe, of your foot, I'm sorry, to then get a better idea and to make an educated guess on what works for you. There's also a lot of companies like Road Runner which allow you to test shoes for 90 days. So you can also test it, gear test it and see if it works for you. But I would not ever blindly just follow someone that's on social, myself included.

Anyone, if you follow me, guys, like, don't just get a shoe because I make a video for it because it's not going to always be good for you. Spot on. Like, what, what different types of shoes do you have? Like, not, not necessarily brand or model, but you talked about you wear minimal footwear during the day. I think you're lifting in minimal footwear as well. Yeah. Do you have separate shoes for road running, for trail running, for racing?

Talk to me about that. My minimal shoe, I work— I, I use Vivobarefoot. That's what I'm in all the times when I'm not running. When I'm running, um, I like on my easy days a more cushioned shoe. Or I'll use a still like a relatively like, like just like a daily training shoe, right? So whether it's the Nike Invincibles, I'll use those for an easy run. Super cushioned. You know, you really feel light on your feet. It's like, it's like kind of running on clouds. Or I'll run with a daily trainer like a, like an Endorphin Speed or a Pegasus 40. And the good thing with those two shoes I just named, they can also be used as easy runs, but, but also you can use them for the track. Like, if you want to get in some speed work, you could run pretty aggressively at a fast tempo in Pegasus 40s or the Hoka Mach 5s or the Endorphin Speed. I used to do all my speed work in carbon fiber plated shoes, but I kind of reduced my intake of using carbon fiber shoes. I like the fact of I'm able to wear any shoe I want and still understand I can go the distance. The past couple marathons I've done, I've actually done them in daily training shoes to prove to myself and to show other people that, hey, if you don't want to invest $300 in a shoe, don't. You don't have to. Now running has gotten so commoditized for us that everyone's like, oh my God, I need 8 pairs of shoes. I need to do this and that. If you're just starting out, get a pair that's going to be consistent that you can wear in all different areas of your life for races, for easy runs, for speed work. I think getting a shoe that is multi-use is always a good thing. Obviously trail shoes are a little bit different. I formally on my ultramarathons use Hoka Speedgoats, which I think are one of the top ones in the industry. I also like the Nike Pegasus trail shoes. So once again, it's like kind of finding that in between of like what works for you. But as you start to take running more seriously, you will start to have a collection of running rotation. And I think it's good. It's an investment upfront.. But if you think about the lifespan of the shoe itself, if you're not using it every single day, you'll actually be able to use those 2 to 3 shoes that are in your rotation over a 16-week training program or even half a year, depending on how many miles you actually put on it. And I think that's something that, that's kind of for someone that's an intermediate runner. If you're just starting out, find a shoe that you can use as a daily trainer that can hopefully be used as multiple, like as a multipurpose shoe as well.

Very well said right there. And I like that approach too of during the day being pretty minimal. I'm married to a Korean. I'm not sure if you knew that, actually. I didn't know that. Yeah. So it's always like shoes off in the house and we like whatever, 15 hours a day it's barefoot over here. And so, yeah, I think the foot does Relax more, strengthens more. And then when you do run, I've experimented with running in a Vivobarefoot. It just was challenging to go any longer or faster or anything like, yeah.

So that's a whole nother conversation. It's a really big challenge. And I think to your point, I mean, Floris, there's nothing that breaks my heart more than seeing someone wearing Alpha Fives or Vapor Fives in the gym and they're squatting and they're deadlift. It's just like most times it's not even a runner. It's just someone that just got the pair of shoes because they thought that it looked cool or they didn't really have the full understanding. And if there's one thing that, like, Forrest, not many things upset me, but that is something that triggers me is when someone wears carbon fiber shoes in the gym or when they're walking around Target And it just— I don't know what it is, but maybe it's because I'm deep into the space now and I have an understanding. But yeah, my challenge for people that are runners is like, try your best to get out of running shoes when you're not running. It's like you wouldn't wear football cleats just to go to get a coffee. So don't treat your running shoes the same way. And I think we live in a space now where the running shoe becomes the walking shoe. And I understand it, but it makes—

the technology is so great now that our feet don't have to do much work. Work. Totally, totally.

What's your approach as a hybrid athlete to nutrition in training and towards race day as well? Like, there's some tried and true principles I have when it comes to nutrition. Like, I'm not very restrictive with certain foods. Luckily, I've been super blessed that my mom was— I'm full Korean, so she's like really gave us a, a large palate as kids. I, I'm not really allergic or have allergies to anything, so I'm not like off limits, nothing triggers my body in a negative way. But I've also done a lot of education and learnings of eating a whole food diet, trying to limit processed foods. So a lot of what I eat now is following a Mediterranean diet where I eat protein from meat, from fish, from anything I can get my hands on. And at the same time, I eat a ton of vegetables and get fiber from vegetables and things of that sort. But I think bigger than anything else, it's eating as much whole foods as possible. Now, granted, you'll see some of my videos where I go to In-N-Out Burger and I'll crush a Double Double because that's part of my 20% of being human. And I think it's a good balance for a lot of people. I think there's some rules that I just follow, whether it's to eat 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. I weigh about 190 pounds, so I do my best every day to get at least 190 grams of protein. Whether it comes through a supplement drink or protein shakes or mostly from real food. That is kind of like my one benchmark a day. Then it's like drinking a gallon of water and mixing in electrolytes to make sure that you're replacing the salt that you're losing through sweat and through working out. Then it's just like I intermittent fast, so I have an eating window where I'm trying to get as much calories in through those windows. And something that Trey actually has been in my ear about is the refeeding windows. If you're going to get in between a workout, make sure you're giving your food, your body calories to then repair itself. And he's also challenging me at times to go run in the morning and lift right after. So then I have 2 or 3 eating windows where I'm not physically tearing any muscle fibers, but I'm just giving my body calories and opportunities to repair itself. So I think the biggest thing for me is following the whole food diet approach that has allowed myself to be very stress-free when I'm traveling on the road floor. It's like, clearly there's like, I'm less in my own environment and I'm not in much as like, I'm not in full control and I just don't stress about it. Those days they come and you try your best to hit these benchmarks. But I think the beautiful thing about following the 80/20 rule, whether it's in running or nutrition, is that there's a reason that there's a 20%. You're not going to always be in control of everything. And the less anxiety, the less stress you put on yourself, it's actually benefiting you in the long run to not psych yourself out. And I think so many people psych themselves out if they don't have the meal that they've always been eating before, if they don't eat right. And I think for me, Floris, I just do not allow that stuff to dictate how I perform. Now granted, I understand that there's levels of variables that you would like to have in your control, but sometimes you don't. So like, what are you gonna do about it?

And I think that's kind of how I approach nutrition prior leading to a race in addition to day-to-day life. What is your, um, what is that feeding window for you? And how, like when you're talking about intermittent fasting, how many hours is that? And then also the feeding window itself.

Um, like curious, like do you take it within half an hour of working out or an hour of working out? Yeah. So I typically go 16 and 8, and it's very loose. Some days I eat a little bit earlier because if I ate super late at night or vice versa, if I ate super early, then I might need to push back the window a little bit. I try to get 20 to 30 grams of protein after a run, whether it's coming from a liquid form or it's coming through real food, something just to get the body kind of stimulate it to kind of get the process of the digestive state going. I get at least 20 to 30 grams right after a workout. I'll kind of start working a little bit, drink my coffee, and then I'll eat a really big brunch right around 10:30 to 11-ish. I'll try to get 40 to 50 grams of protein in through eggs, through ground beef, or through kielbasa sausage or something. And I'll just try to get a really big brunch in. I'll then get a smoothie that is mixed with spinach and fruit and protein as well, mixing in dates and honey and milk. And it's a very dense shake, anywhere from 30 to 40 grams of protein in just that shake. You throw in peanut butter, it's a lot more calories. And then for dinner, I'm super simple. I'll eat a lot of protein through ground beef or bison. If I'm a little bit cleaner, I'll make a bison bowl and mix in some kimchi and some fermented other fermented vegetables, whether it's pickled onions or cucumbers or things of that sort. And then evening-wise, I mean, I would typically say I eat 2 to 3 meals a day, pretty dense meals, and that's where I'm getting most of my nutrition from. And obviously there's other days where I go out and eat and then I'm just kind of like a victim to whatever they have. And once again, you kind of like don't have a choice. You got to kind of make do with what you got. But yeah, those feeding windows, I try to eat all my meals for us. It's sometimes hard when I'm traveling, But by 9:00, 9:30, I'd like to cut out any solid foods. And I have an evening tea at the end of the night, and I just use that to kind of simmer down the day. But I try my best to cut food out before 9:30.

But obviously, some days there's exceptions. Totally.

I know how that goes. Matt, where can people find more about you? You guys can find me on Instagram and TikTok, mattchoi_6. I also have a YouTube channel where I post a lot more of my races and more day-in-the-life stuff and what I eat., and you can find that just at Matt Choi on YouTube. And then you have a running coaching program. Where can people find more about that one? Yes, you guys can find that on my website at mattchoi.co. Also, if you follow me on Instagram, there's a Linktree that has a link to a lot of my, uh, resources, programs. There's a lot of free stuff on there too, like 5K programs, or if you're a creator looking to get into the process of like becoming a creator, there's also a free program that you can download there that has a bunch of resources.

Absolutely. In closing over here, do you have any last thoughts here for anyone listening here looking to become a stronger, healthier, happier athlete?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing, I think it's one of the first things that I said, it was leaning into patience. I think a lot of people in today's day and age, and a lot of it has to do with technology and the devices and social media, everyone wants the quick fix. People want to run a sub-3-hour marathon in 30 days, or they they want a ludicrous result in a very short amount of time. And if people could actually understand that what you want is going to take some time, it's going to take effort and sacrifice and discipline, and it's going to take you enjoying the process of doing it, I think so many people would live much more happier and fulfilled lives because they wouldn't put so much pressure, a time pressure on them to achieve this goal. And I think it's one of the biggest lessons I've learned from running and building a brand online. That nothing happens overnight. I didn't become this runner in 30 days. I didn't build a content brand because in 30 days, like, all these things took time and discipline and accountability and consistency. And I know, Flores, that these things are not sexy. Like, it's so much easier for someone to buy a program and think that they're going to get the result in 30 days than to be like, I need to instill patience and consistency. And like, I understand that it's not sexy.. But from all the entrepreneurs and business people and endurance athletes I've learned from, it's quite frankly the ingredients of success. And it would be the one thing I would want anyone that listened to this podcast up to this point.

If you actually instilled patience, you would achieve so much more than you can believe. 100% agree. Spot on, Matt. Thank you so much. I honestly really appreciate this. And it's interesting for me to hear that that you've only been at it for 2, 2.5 years really with the running journey, and you've already have so much great content out there. You've grown so much as an athlete. Appreciate you sharing all this, and I'm really excited to watch your journey here over the next 3, 5, 10 years, man.

This is just the beginning for you. I am so pumped to be a guest, Floris. It's my honor, and I'm super pumped as well. And I'm sure our paths will cross very soon.

I'll see you in Berlin. I'll be at the Berlin Marathon..

That's going to be awesome. We'll hang out over there. Cool.

We'll talk more soon. Thanks, Matt.

Amazing, Floris.

I'll see you later. Bye. Hi there. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this episode? Please let me know in the comments below on YouTube. We're actually giving away a few different prizes over there. If you'd like to learn more about my running coaching program, the Personal Best Program, check out pbprogram.com. Those are the letters pbprogram.com. Also, if you'd like to save 10% on your favorite running shorts, on my favorite running shorts, check out pathprojects.com/flow. That is pathprojects.com/flow. There are 4 more upcoming podcasts in the works right now, so, um, stay tuned on those. But if you enjoyed this episode with Matt Joy, I'd I think you will really enjoy my conversation with Ryan Hall as well, and I'll make sure to link to that as well.

All right, have fun out there on your runs.

Bye now.