Dr. Deep Sea: What Hyperbaric Oxygen Does to Your Bone Marrow | TUH #294

The simple truth here is that your life is supposed to be hard. Hormetic stressors are there for a reason. All these hormetic stressors put together, when you go to the gym, when you go to the ice bath, when you go to the red light, all that stuff is actually good for you. So when you do that, you can make the mitochondria more efficient.

So hyperbarics are providing a hormetic stress. This hormetic stress applied intermittently seems to be having a very positive effect on the mitochondria. Which to me would be the hallmark of age reversal.

Hyper means more than, baric means pressure. That's it. You just increase the pressure, you get that benefit.

Using gas pressure, hormetic stress, these are all things that we have a lot of data on in terms of strengthening the body and improving performance and function. And I think most people are after that cognitive benefit as much as they are physical benefit.

Hyperbaric oxygen doesn't cure anything. But it helps your body help itself. And that's what we want. We want an organism that will fix itself better.

Where do you see the future of biohacking slash recreational hyperbarics going?

The interesting thing that we just found out and we've come through and the science isn't done yet on it, but Ultimate Human.

Hey guys, welcome back to the Ultimate Human Podcast. I'm your host, human biologist Gary Brecka, where we go down the road of everything anti-aging, biohacking, longevity, and everything in between. This is an anti-aging, longevity, and biohacking and in-between podcast. Um, I've probably said this before, but I mean it today. I Don't recall being so excited about a guest coming on my podcast because it happens to be an area where of the biohacking community that I think is just in its infancy. I think the implications of this biohack, if you want to call it that, are profound. He is leading the way in research, conducting some of the largest TBI studies ever conducted in the world. He's done experiments on himself, experiments on other people. He has a background in this biohack, and I am so excited to sit down with Dr. Dottori, aka. Dr. Deep Sea, how are you, my brother?

I'm well, I'm well, thank you. You know where this introduction—

most people, um, uh, heard about you, a lot of people, was when, um, uh, Joe Rogan was talking about you on a podcast. He's like, you ever see this guy? This dude like lived under the ocean for like 100 days. Yeah, pulls up your, your, your story, um, and, uh, and I've gotten to be good friends with Joe. I've been on his podcast a couple of times, but I saw that, started going down the rabbit hole. Met your co-author, Dr. Saunders.

Dr. Saunders.

Yeah, this is the Bible of hyperbaric medicine. I'm so excited for this podcast. And, you know, your background as a Navy diver, you know, left the Navy, went to school for biomedical engineering. Yeah. You know, suffered a TBI, I want to say in 2023. 21. 2021. 2023 was when you set the world record. Yep. 100 days, 22 feet underwater, just south of me right here in the Keys. And if I recall, I remember reading some of the outcomes. This is what really zoned me in on hyperbaric therapy. You had a 71% reduction in your cholesterol. Yeah, yeah. You had like a 1,000% increase in stem cells.

Yeah.

You had telomere lengthening.

Yep, 17%.

A 17% telomere lengthening. Now, albeit this is an N of 1, I get you science nerds out there, calm down. Or not, making a medical claim. And then you lost like a quarter of an inch or half an inch, right? I don't know how you got shorter, but you did. So everybody's like, screw hyperbarics, I don't want to get smaller.

Yeah, yeah.

Is that what sparked your interest in hyperbarics? How did you get down the road of hyperbaric medicine?

In hyperbaric medicine? Oh, wow, that's actually a great question.

All right.

I was a Navy diver. We used recompression chambers. And then, you know, I got to Mobile Diving Salvage Unit. And when we're at one of these Mobile Diving Salvage Units, the doctor was like, hey, by the way, we're gonna treat this old guy who's got a little bit of cancer in his jaw. He said, we're gonna treat him. And I said, wait, wait, wait, you can treat these guys? I was young, right? I was like, you can treat other people in a hyperbaric chamber, not just decompression sickness? And it's like, we're going back a million years too, right? Yeah. I was like, really? I'm interested. Let me— tell me more. Tell me more. So she starts telling me more, more, more, more, more. All of a sudden I'm like, oh, at that time there were 12 approved indications. Now there's 15, right? On-label, FDA-cleared sort of indications. And now it's like, oh, wow, we can use this for other things. This is a very powerful drug. So I step back and I go, what are the mechanisms of action? And everybody's looking at me like I got 10 heads. And I'm like, no, that's how we prescribe every drug in the world is by its mechanism of action. And they're like, oh, so That's kind of—

we don't know. We just know that it works.

We know that it works. You know, I'm like, well, science wins over bullshit. Let's fix that.

Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's what— because you, you, you didn't get your PhD until you got out of the Navy.

Oh yeah.

Right. And, and so something must have, you know, led you in your later adult time to say, you know, I want to go into biomedical engineering and get, and get this PhD, which most people don't wake up midlife and decide that they want to do that.

So what had happened was, uh, what had happened was I'm, uh, you know, I'm retiring and we're talking with, uh, Admiral Bill McRaven and, you know, another friend of mine, Admiral Ed Winters. And they're like, hey, what are you going to be when you grow up, Aquanaut? And I'm like, well, you know, I don't know, but I don't want to come work for you. He's like, no, no, no, help me because can you sit on the Preservation of the Force and Family? And I said, okay, that sounds good. So we dealt with people with TBIs, and this is a great thing, right? Here we are, we're helping our guys, right? I'm retired. I'm the old graybeard sort of at this point. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can push you down.

Veterans with TBIs.

Yeah, veterans with TBIs and even active duty guys with TBIs. And how do we fix that, right? So Admiral McRaven was terrific because he wanted to look at the preservation of the Forsan family, right? So he was looking at this whole setup, trying to make everybody better. Okay, great. So I go back to after 6 months and I talk to him and I go, look, this is just not working. And he looks me dead in the eye and he goes, permission granted, Aquanaut, fix the problem. And I'm like, oh shit.

Yeah.

Now I gotta go back to school 'cause I'm not smart enough for this. So I go back to school, I get a PhD in biomedical engineering, and then I start doing clinical research in traumatic brain injury. Okay.

Wow. And now you're running the largest TBI study ever conducted at USF, right?

I'm not running it. I was one of the members when I was the assistant vice president of the University of South Florida. I stepped away from that in December only because it's now moving. All right. Now it's moving. It's time to— I'm a, I'm a doer, not a, not a talk about doing. So academia moves a little slow.

Yeah.

Yeah. I want to go fast.

Yeah, I did. I feel you. But this may be a very Profound study when it's published.

It will change things, that's for sure. And it was done with a placebo, randomized, double-blind. It's done the right way.

Well conducted.

Yeah, it's all the bells and whistles.

And as I understand, it's 73, 75 minutes, 5 days a week.

Yeah.

100% O2.

Exactly.

200 spheres.

100% O2 or placebo.

Or placebo, yeah.

Yep, air at 0 feet. And, you know, we're doing it the right way. It's 40 treatments long. So it's basically a 2-month-long, Protocol, if you will. And, you know, we'll see is the answer.

And can you tell us what— let's talk about mechanisms of action.

Sure.

Because I'm a fan of hyperbarics. I would say I'm a recreational hyperbaric user, and I would like to become more than a recreational user. I've got hyperbarics in every home, and I'm invested a lot in hyperbarics. Personally, I'd rather have a hyperbaric chamber than a Ferrari.

Oh, okay.

Um, because I don't, I don't have a, uh, car problem or a watch problem. I have a, I have a, I have a, like, a biohacking problem. That's why I keep telling my wife I have a little biohacking addiction. If you see my garage downstairs, it's like a biohacking hoarder. Oh, you know, it's like one of those, like, like, you know, docuseries, you know, on, on hoarding. But, you know, I understand mechanistically we're increasing atmospheric pressure.

Yep.

which decreases the size of oxygen and other gases, and therefore they should be able to perfuse tissues more thoroughly and probably in areas where they otherwise wouldn't get good saturation.

Yeah.

So let's say connective tissues, ligaments, tendons, areas of the brain that are not served by healthy vascular flow, compromised blood flow in people with vasomotor circulation compromise. I think the literature is super clear On, um, post-surgical recovery wound. Sure. Uh, you know, there's a lot of information out there on diabetic ulcer. Uh, you know, those, those types of things.

Common ones, right? The common osteonecrosis, the gaseous gangrenes. They're like, oh, they're horrible. But yeah, they're really well, really well looked after and they work.

Yeah. Especially if you have like an anaerobic infection, right?

Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Right. I mean, so Logically, you can put the mechanism of action with the treatment. So we have 13 known mechanisms of action. Let me step back and say that again. This is like a super drug. It's not like a super drug, it is a super drug. It's classified as a drug by the USP, right?

Right.

US Pharmacopeia says it's a drug. Okay, hyperbaric oxygen is a drug. But aspirin, what has that got? 3, 4, 5 mechanisms of action. Gabapentin, 3. There's a couple of these that GLP-1s, there's 3 or 4 of those, increase cerebral blood flow, it does the weight thing, But that's all great. Hyperbaric oxygen, 13. It is the super drug of super drugs. I don't even know what to say.

Wow. And, you know, I was talking to Dr. Saunders about this too. Is it dose-dependent, pressure-dependent? Do different things happen at different pressures? Is there an ideal pressure? Is there an ideal oxygen saturation? Because, you know, like I have a soft chamber in my bedroom. It goes to about 1.3.

Yeah.

I've got a hard shell in the gym that'll go to 2 atmospheres. I think it'll go higher. I think it's governed to 2 atmospheres. And I know that certain benefits occur at certain pressures, but one of the things that Saunders was telling me is like, it's not always more pressure is more results. It's different hormetic stress providing a different outcome. And I'd love to unpack that with you.

Yeah, it's huge. And nobody really knows the real answer. So I'll be speaking in tongue on this, And we're still kind of just trying to figure it out. But realistically, we know that certain pressures do certain things. And, you know, what mechanism of action do you want to work? The more powerful anti-inflammatory natures, that seems to be in the lower pressures, the 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, something like that. The brain seems to tolerate 1.5, 1.6, 1.7 better than 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, right? So, but if you want hyperoxygenation as a mechanism of action or leukocyte oxidative killing, you need to be in the 2.5 to 3.0 range, right? Mm-hmm. The bigger the bubble, you need the more pressure, that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of different things. You just gotta play with it, right?

Yeah.

Here's the interesting thing that we just found out and we've come through and the science isn't done yet on it, but varying the hyperbaric oxygen protocol does different things and it stimulates that hormetic response.

Well, now you're jumping to the XPRIZE, right?

That's right.

I mean, so let's jump there 'cause I— We'll go in order. some of what you saw when you were 22 feet underwater, 'cause that's not even quite 2 atmospheres, right?

Oh yeah.

So that's like what, 1.5-ish?

1.6, 1.7, something like that.

1.6, 1.7. 'Cause I wanna talk about that 'cause the outcomes were pretty profound and I—

We'll go where you want, you're in charge.

So let's jump to the XPRIZE. For those of you that don't know what this is, it's a $101 million winner-take-all prize. I believe this year's was to Extend healthy lifespan by 20 years. Yep. That was sort of the framework. About 765 potential contestants. That's down under 100 now, right?

Yeah, it got to 100. We were one of the 100 finalists that Team Arizona State University Healthspan, Team Healthspan.

Okay. Yeah. And has that 100 narrowed or you'll know?

Not yet. We'll know in July. So fingers crossed we'll be the final 10.

Yeah. If you split the $100 million with me, I'll grease some people behind the scenes for you. Do you know Pete? I do. Peter Diamandis, dude. Come on, buddy. Give it to this guy. Come on, Elon Musk. So $101 million winner-take-all and to add 20 years to healthy lifespan. And I love how they define that as not just lifespan, but healthy lifespan. So you're actually pushing the lifespan out with the healthspan, which I think is the hallmark of success in anti-aging. None of us just want to live another 30, 40 years.

Yeah, who cares if you're in a persistent vegetative state? I don't care.

Exactly.

I want to live shorter, not longer.

And we want to be independent. We don't want to be assisted with the activities of daily living. We want independent living. It's like, how many healthy, independent years can I have? And then God, call me back.

Exactly.

So in this realm, what I find fascinating is you, with HBO Tech, which I'm a huge fan— I have an HBO Tech hyperbaric chamber. I'm putting these in all my ultimate longevity centers. I think they're Fantastic manufacturer. You created and designed a one of a kind, at least today it's one of a kind, hyperoxic hypoxic chamber. And that means that you take a hyperbaric chamber and you provide the subject with oxygen deprivation and then oxygen excess.

Yeah.

Right. So oxygen, you know, for those folks that are watching, sea level is what, 21%? So hyperoxia is going to be above 21%. Hypoxia is going to be below that, or simulating altitude, right? I mean, the higher you go, the thinner the air. And you're seeing some pretty incredible results.

Really great. Really great stuff.

I was reading your report, like 8.2 years, 8.6 years that you guys are at right now.

Did they share that results with you?

I don't know. Somebody told me it's just—

You may or may not have seen it because I may or may not have been allowed to share it with you.

Okay, so you didn't share it with me, but that is profound. This is profound. You're not far into this study yet. This is not a years-long study.

No, this is— and the cool thing is, you give me 20 days, I can give you between 8 to almost 20 years if you give me 20 days.

20 consecutive or 5 on, 2 off?

No, it's 25 days on, 2 days off, 5 days on, 2 days off. So give me 30 days, technically. 28 days, right?

So 20 days of hyperbaric.

20 days of hyper-hypobariacs. But it's not just that, right? The simple truth here is that your life is supposed to be hard. Everybody's trying to have the easy life. Everybody wants the greased streets. Everybody— no, it's supposed to be hard. Hormetic stressors are there for a reason, right?

To strengthen us. To strengthen us.

Amen. Exactly. We go to the gym, right? And we work out, right? Look at the guns, the gun show. So, you know, we go to the gym and work out and we get that we accept failure in the gym 'cause we need failure, right? But we don't do that in the rest of the areas of our life. So hypoxia, hyperoxia, you know, red light therapy is a hormetic stress. You know, we have cold plunge, we have, you know, the saunas, right? So you can have several of these things, the hormetic stress from eating the right kind of food that is stressed, right? Like, what's the best tasting strawberry? The one that's been through the hard winter that really got stressed. That's the best tasting. And it's also the best for you.

Yeah.

So that kind of hormetic stress from eating that kind of stuff, it's— these are great things, but your body needs to go through this.

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Yep.

Compressing it. Yeah. Um, and then the atmospheric pressure is, you know, the, the multiples that you're providing this pressure. Just that alone, let's say not adding oxygen, not 100% O2, getting in a hyperbaric chamber, soft chamber, let's say that goes to 1.3 atmospheres. What are some of the benefits of that? I mean, more and more people are putting these in their house. They're getting these certified chambers, doing an hour, 90 minutes a day. What can they expect from it? What does the science say about regular use of hyperbarics?

So PhD researcher went in, did 5 treatments in an air-only chamber at 1.278 atmospheres. which is basically like, you know, 10 feet. It's 10 feet underwater, right? You got one that can go that deep too, right? Just using air, 5 days, 1 hour at a pop, he doubled the number of circulating stem cells.

Wow.

5 days. And this is— did the flow cytometry. This is real science. And you know me, science wins over bullshit, right?

These are stem cells migrating from your bone marrow into circulation.

CD34+ progenitor stem cells. Like, this is the good— this is the gold card, right? Wild card, right? This is what you need. So, you know, now what does that mean? I don't know what that means, but doubling stem cells is not a horrible thing.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And so, and that was at 1.27. And then, um, you know, a lot of these chambers, 1.5 to 2 atmospheres. So as you increase the pressure in a hyperbaric chamber, what's happening physiologically to the body aside from the gas getting smaller?

So look, you cannot You cannot squish the human body, right? I mean, basically, you're made mostly of water, and water's pretty much incompressible, right? At thousands of feet, it gets compressible, but that's not important, right? So, but you're incompressible, if you will. So as long as your gas spaces are full, you can— I mean, the deepest recorded dive is 2,265 feet or something like that.

For a human?

For a human. Oh yeah. My deepest dive is 1,947 feet.

Your deepest dive? That's like the— what was it, the Titanic thing that just crumpled like a can?

No, that was 5,000 feet.

Okay, 5,000 feet.

No, that was crazy.

You dove almost 2,000 feet?

Yeah, I mean, so the deepest dives that we do are, you know, we can go to 2,000 feet, we can go to 20— I think the French just went a little deeper than that, to be honest with you. So it might be like 2,300 feet now. But humans can go deep. That's not the problem. The problem is the gas mixture that you're breathing, right? 'Cause when you go to twice the atmosphere, you're effectively breathing twice the oxygen. Concentration, then the fire risk goes up. Then the right you know you have the nitrogen narcotics, the narcotic potential. You know we were talking about hydrogen gas. Everybody's like oh let's stack modalities. I'm like please don't do it inside a hyperbaric chamber.

Yeah, not in not in a chamber.

No. Let's put hydrogen and red light in a hyperbaric chamber. I'm like no no don't do that.

Yeah yeah definitely. I I mean I do them separately or in sequence. Yeah I love that. So so as you increase the pressure. Because, you know, what I do is I get in my hyperbaric chamber 4 or 5 days a week, 2 atmospheres of pressure. I am going to stop using a nasal cannulus.

Yes, you are.

And either use a sealed rebreather like the HBO Tech.

Yep.

Because now you've made a case that makes perfect sense to me where—

Thank you.

Oxygen is coming in, CO2 is going out, but it's not entering the chamber.

Yep.

It's just entering my lungs and then going out of the chamber. So you don't have this excess Because, you know, I've always been under the auspice incorrectly that 100% oxygen is combustible and flammable. That's how it's advertised.

Interestingly enough, oxygen says right on it, if you read on the side of it, on the side of the bottle, colorless, odorless, nonflammable gas. Oxygen's not flammable. It's an accelerant. It'll accelerate the flammability of anything that it gets in touch with. But it is non-flammable, so the oxygen itself won't burn.

Okay.

That's just an interesting tidbit of information.

It's just providing the resources for something that is burning. Right.

It's the third part of the fire triangle, right?

Right.

So it's like heat, fuel, oxygen. If you don't have any of those 3, you're not going to burn anything. When you have more oxygen, you're going to burn it more, better.

And higher and hotter.

Yeah, higher and hotter.

Exactly. Either if— so if you're going to increase the oxygen saturation other than using ambient compressed air, yeah, right, ambient compressed air, probably the safest.

Just fine.

Just in a, in a chamber that's not a dead chamber, that's circulating air. Yeah, your 2 atmospheres, you're getting enough of a benefit if you're a longevity nut like I am. Yeah. And you want to be doing hyperbarics for longevity, safe in, you know, up to 2 atmospheres just using regular compressed gas.

Yeah. Yeah, regular compressed air. It's called scuba diving.

Yeah. Am I missing anything? Like, I feel like I'm cheating myself by not adding the oxygen. Am I gonna—

No, it's what mechanism of action do you want at play? If hyperoxygenation is one of them, add the oxygen in the safe way, right? You gotta do it the right way.

Sealed rebreather.

Yeah, some sort of a rebreather recirculator. We call it a BIBS mask in a hyperbaric chamber, built-in breathing system.

I just need that BIBS mask, man.

You gotta have that kind of a thing.

Yeah. For 90 minutes, I'm like, get this thing off my face. Yeah.

I don't know. I love that feeling because it gives me that— so when I breathe in, what do I want? I really want all the oxygen, right? I don't want the 15% increase with the nasal cannula, right? I don't want the non-rebreather mask with this silly little bag doing this. And then where does all that exhaled oxygen go? Right into the hyperbaric chamber, which is only designed for air, not oxygen. So just, you know.

Ah.

Yeah. So you don't want your exhaled oxygen-filled gas touching any of the stuff in the chamber. I mean, it could be really dangerous, right?

Right. So now, so you can, you can use a chamber that's just circulating the air, 1.5, 2 atmospheres, safe, um, or use a rebreather if you want to increase the, um, oxygen concentration. The ones that I, until this recent accident, heard that, you know, really exploded were the ones that had 100% O2. Yeah. There was a terrible story of the young kid. I think he wasn't grounded and he was a blanket or something.

Horrible. And unfortunately, when you're in this business and you see these things, you can't unsee that video.

Yeah.

That is a horrible nightmare, right? Of we knew the answer, right? And most of these rules, they're really written in blood, right? Because oh, why do we ground people? Because stupid things like that happen, right? When you don't ground people. So it's like I didn't know. Oh, you knew.

Come on.

Everybody knew. So, right, yeah, it's unfortunate, but yeah.

So where do you see the future of, uh, biohacking slash recreational hyperbarics going? Um, if, you know, this, this adoption of hyperbarics seems to be going parabolic, I think that there is a paucity of information out there. Oh yeah, I mean, I would consider myself you know, very much among the know. And, and I'm not even aware of some of these safety risks, which is why I'm excited to do this podcast, because just laying it out there hopefully will help a lot of people use these in the proper way. They're not toys.

And you should be lauded for that, trust me, because the people that are out there that are just kind of faking it till you make it, this is not the thing. So thank you, thank you, thank you for going, hey, listen, I want to learn a little bit on this. Yeah, please. I really do.

I mean, I want to do it right. I mean, you know, Obviously, I'd love to be in there with my red light mask and my hydrogen running an NAD IV on my PEMF mats. But now we know that, listen, they're phenomenal tools. They are about to have some incredible science around longevity and aging, which I think is phenomenal. Just around even the 13 indications. And if people use them safely, they can get long-term use and long-term benefit out of them. And I mean, that's the objective, right? It's the same with like red light therapy, with cold plunging, with all of these things. More is not better.

No.

You know, colder and longer is not better. Longer in a red light bed, higher milliwatts of irradiance. You know, there's therapeutic ranges that the body responds to and just get that dose. Move on. You know, get your benefit and move on. You know, I have that sort of inclination too, that if some is good, more is better.

Yeah.

Right? So I want to resist that, especially when it comes to hyperbarics.

You say more is better, and it's just a funny joke, 'cause I treat a bunch of military guys, right? And these guys come in and they're like, I can do 5 minutes, I can do 7 minutes, I can do 12 minutes, I can do 15. These kids were up to 18 minutes in the ice bath, and I'm like, and we do 32 degrees, right? And I'm like, that's it, you're done.

Yeah.

Nobody can go over 5 minutes.

Yeah. You're done.

Yeah.

By the way, after that, the hormetic stress is over.

Exactly.

Right?

And they're out there like, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh.

Yeah. And that's not good. You know, I mean, I saw a video on someone on Instagram a few months ago. I actually, I won't say who it was, but I messaged him privately and said, hey, you should take that down. But what he did was he took a snorkel, went underwater in 35-degree water, for 12 minutes and was just breathing through a snorkel and then put it out on social media. I'm like, man, your brain is this far inside the surface of your skull.

This far, right?

Yeah. It's not good to bake it. It's not good to fry it. Not good to bake it.

Why do you think they wear hats inside the sauna, for crying out loud? Come on.

I do the same thing. So again, the more is not better. So soft chambers, great. Hard chambers—

It works. I mean, is it great? Is it going to cure your aseptic bone necrosis? Nope. Soft chamber will not do that. But can it help you double your stem cells? Yes, we have the science behind that. Can it help you fix, heal better? Yeah, it can, you know, but we don't have a lot of detail in there. But yeah, you know, we got to get more science.

One of the interesting things that I seem to be swaying towards too is how it's almost like a sleep mimetic because like during the deep phases of sleep when the glymphatic system is draining and you're getting, you're eliminating waste from the brain, cytokines, histamines through these glymphatic channels that are opening during deep sleep. Similar physiology is going on with hyperbarics, right? With oxygen perfusion into tissues. I'm not saying it's a replacement for sleep.

Yeah, yeah, I know. We're increasing the metabolism in the human body, right? So we're upping the metabolism, which makes you more tired, which, you know, so like you wanted to go to the, I don't know if it's this time, but, you know, talking about the underwater stay, right? When I stayed underwater, first of all, in the first 25 days, I lost 22 pounds.

You lost 22 pounds?

22 pounds. So my medical team said—

Metabolism was just—

'Cause my metabolism was through the roof. My medical team said, that's it, you're done. Now you're up to, you know, 1.75 milligrams per kilogram body weight of protein. We gotta double it. You cannot waste away to nothing. That's not gonna work here.

Right.

So, you know, that kind of stuff. But we talked about, you talk about deep and REM sleep. Normally a human sleeps between 30 and 33% in deep and REM. Underwater, 60 to 66% in deep and REM.

Wow.

Every single person that came back down with an Apple Watch or an Oura Ring or a Fitbit or whatever the heck they had, they all correlated almost exactly, 50 to 60.

So people would come stay with you?

Yeah, I had a couple of people come and stay.

How big was this thing?

It wasn't as big as your studio.

No way. Were you just going out of your mind after 100 days?

No.

It's like a bedroom.

I will tell you. So, so it was maybe this wide and maybe 17 feet long worth of usable space. So, and then there was another side to it exactly the same, and then a wet pod in between that you had to duck down in. Um, you know, I can get you pictures of it.

Where people could come and dock and come in.

Yeah, you come in and you, you know, you're getting— it's your wet room, if you will. Okay. Where you shower, where you go to the bathroom. Yeah, that kind of stuff.

Okay, so, so, um, deep and REM phases of sleep, because obviously you're sleeping there. Double.

Wow. So 70 million Americans alone have sleep issues, right? And I doubled my deep and REM. So then what else happened, right? So this is how we don't know where the results, what happened and how the results got so good, right? Was it the sleep that healed me better, faster? Was it the sleep that made me cognitively 13%, you know, 13% better connectivity and a 5% reduction in phase lag? I mean, holy mackerel.

And were you doing like EEGs?

Yeah, I was doing EEGs every other day. you've not set up your own EEG, your new EEG, beautiful, brilliant.

Thank you.

Mine, it was like 4 hours of your life that you'll never get back.

Sticking them on the head kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Trying to get the thing to work, you know, trying to push things.

It's crazy.

Yeah. So, but you know, we did those and the quantifiable data is there. Now EEGs are, they're okay, they're good, but you know, they're not perfect, right? You know, we're looking for the, the perfect telltale how to read inside the brain. But, you know, it's the one thing that we don't even open up.

Yeah, but you had a— you had an increase in telomere length. You also had a 71% decrease in cholesterol.

Yeah, I had a pretty substantial decrease in cholesterol. So I don't remember if it was—

That was the solution for Lipo. That would be great. Yeah, right.

So the, the cholesterol drop, everybody's like, well, it's because you weren't drinking alcohol, and, you know, you drink alcohol and stuff. And I said, no, that's They're like, what? I'm like, well, I'm a scientist, right? So like, you have to treat yourself how you do before, how you do during, and how you do afterwards. So, you know, I had a drop.

A couple.

I'm just saying, I'm not saying—

I wonder what the hell you do with all your time down there. I'd be drinking too, and I don't even drink.

No, no, no. So it wasn't like that. We were really doing science. I mean, literally, while I was underwater, I'd wake up every morning at 5 o'clock, and I used to drink coffee, like I told you. I don't drink coffee anymore, but 2, 3 cups of coffee would be my staple. And then, you know, protein in the morning, protein in the afternoon with salad, And then protein at dinner with something green vegetable of some sort, right? That's just the way I eat, right? So that's the way I eat on the surface. That's the way I eat underwater, right? Same stuff. Occasionally I have a drink. Occasionally I have a drink. I'm not saying that I did, but, you know, boss, don't yell at me.

Didn't make it into the study design, but that's okay.

Right. So, you know, but I would work then, you know, those are just the meals. I would work probably about 6 or 8 hours, you know, doing my science, you know, blood, urine, saliva, electrocardiogram, electroencephalograms, pulmonary function tests. I mean, we did all this great science while we were down there and pretty much every day. And then, you know, I'd do 3 hours worth of interviews a day. And then, you know, towards the end I was doing like CNN, ABC, CBS, Fox, right? So look, it was, oh my God.

Once you had broken the Guinness Book of World Records and you were still down there, and then it became big news.

Oh yeah, it was nuts. I mean, Neil Cavuto came on board and told everybody in the world that my mother is a certain age. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You said my mother's age. She's 49 as far as I'm concerned.

That's great. And, and, and so when you got out and analyzed the data, yeah, um, what are you attributing this to, this prolonged hormetic stress?

The—

because part of me says that when you provide too much oxygen or too little oxygen, the body becomes adaptive.

Yep.

Right. So did you adapt to the increased oxygen saturation, and then when you got back to sea level, feel like a tree slug?

Absolutely.

Okay.

So I adapted. You know, I go in, I run really hot on the hemoglobin, right? So I'm like in the 15, 16 range, right?

Okay.

When I came out of the water—

Did you do a regular therapeutic phlebotomy?

Yeah.

Okay.

So when I came out of the water, I was in the 13s. Why? Because you're at an increased partial pressure of oxygen, thereby decreasing the need for hemoglobin, so your body stops making it. I was a little sluggish.

It was that.

But then when I came out, you know, a couple weeks later, I checked blood and I was like, oh, right back up.

Body came right back.

Yeah. You know, you gotta be able to bounce. So can we live underwater long-term? Probably not. But can it be good for you? Can it be helpful? Look, hyper means more than, baric means pressure. That's it. You just increase the pressure, you get that benefit. How much or how little, that's what you gotta figure out, right? And it's not more is better, right? Like you said. And thank you for saying that because too many people just believe, oh, more is better. I'll just go to 3,000 feet. 3, but these go to 11. I'm like, no.

Right, right, right, right. Listen, there's what I share on this podcast, and then there's what I share with my inner circle. If you've been following me for a while, you know how I hold nothing back here. But my VIP community, that's where the real magic happens. Picture this: you're struggling with energy crashes, brain fog, or just feeling like you're not operating at your peak, and you don't know where to get real answers. But here's what really sets this apart. You're not just getting my insights. When I have incredible guests on the podcast, VIP members get to submit questions for a private podcast segment. So that world-renowned expert we just interviewed, you get exclusive access to their knowledge tailored to your specific situation. This section is under the private podcast section in the Ultimate Human Community. And speaking of exclusive, you're getting my personal protocols, the exact tools I use for water fasting, gut optimization, and morning routines that have taken me decades to effect. This isn't theory. This is what works in the real world. The community launches challenges throughout the year where you get direct access to me and my network of experts. It's like having a personal health advisory board for less than $100 a month. Your health is your wealth, and this investment pays dividends for life. Join the VIP community at theultimathuman.com/vip and step into your ultimate potential. Now let's get back to the Ultimate Human Podcast. You know, when we talk about the, the, the research you're doing on, on TBI, which I wanna come back to and touch in for a second, Yeah. I wanna go back to the XPRIZE because there are these machines now that create intermittent hypoxia. So oxygen excess followed by oxygen deprivation. And there seems to be some real benefits. I've seen clinical outcomes where it's increasing VO2 max. And a lot of these are increasing VO2 max at rest, which I find really fascinating because VO2 max training is usually zone 2, 4x4s, all of the traditional mechanisms of increasing VO2 max. So this hormetic stress applied, um, uh, you know, intermittently— oxygen excess, oxygen deprivation— seems to be having a very positive effect on the mitochondria, um, maybe even increasing mitochondrial density or mitochondrial proliferation, which to me would be the hallmark of age reversal, right?

Because that's what's So if there was a really great way, I'm working with a company right now trying to figure out a good way to test mitochondrial stress and mitochondrial density right now, right? But this group is kind of coming through this at this point, but that stuff's in its infancy at this point, right?

Yes, yeah.

So, but yeah, mitogenesis is one of the known mechanisms of action of hyperbaric oxygen, right? So, oh.

New mitochondria.

Yeah, I mean, I'm making it more better, right?

Yeah.

This isn't rocket science. We just know the mechanism of action and we try and apply it, right? So, you know, when you're looking at, So, instead of working in the hypoxic state, oxygen deprivation, what we're doing is an altitude chamber. So, you made the comment earlier about people in the long-living zones being in the higher altitudes.

Why?

Better mitochondria. The mitochondria are working harder.

I didn't even think about it. This is going back a long time. I was in the mortality science space for years when I didn't really understand what mitochondria was.

Yeah.

We just saw these observations. Um, and, you know, increased life expectancy as you approximated the equator.

Yep.

Obviously relates to sunlight. Um, uh, decreased life expectancy as you approximated the poles. And these are broad, you know, big data terms, but also that, uh, altitude correlated to extended lifespan.

Yeah.

And at the time, I just surmised that the oxygen intake was similar or matched more with the oxygen expiration, you know, so that the use of the gas was more even because we knew that an oxygen singlet, you know, oxidative stress can be oxygen and a single oxygen molecule, you know, trapped in this phospholipid bilayer can cause oxidative stress. So if you were somehow to match the intake of oxygen with the outflow of oxygen, seems like that would correlate to longevity. That was a very basic view. So just so you know.

No, it's great. I mean, it's a decent first thought.

Yeah, it was a first stab. But what you're saying is there is probably increased mitochondrial efficiency. Like these people are using oxygen more effectively. There's less of it. The body adapts.

Yeah.

Probably by mitogenesis.

Well, you know, when you increase your VO2, you are effectively— not effectively, you are using oxygen better, right? You're using it better. And that's why— so this is the thing I liked about Arizona State University and Team Healthspan and the rules for the XPRIZE. The rules for the XPRIZE were not telomere length, right? 'Cause it's like, oh yeah, you're living longer. No, that's not it, right? Telomeres, yes, they will help you to live longer. You need those. Grip strength, right? VO2 max, right? We're gonna test all this data, and that is required by the XPRIZE. So when they say healthspan, they really mean it, right? 'Cause, you know, people go to the gym when they're older, they're better. Muscle's gonna help you with everything. I don't care what your problem is, what you come across, you need more muscle. I don't know what it is, but you need muscle.

Right.

You know, balance, walking, you know, you fall and you break a hip. Nah, that's the curse, right?

Yep.

You need that balance.

Yeah, I'm seeing it in my parents right now. I've been very vocal about it. We just walked by my mom getting her qEEG.

She's adorable.

Transcranial red light. She's great. I'm throwing the book at it. One of my parents' mind is great and body is failing, and the other one, body's great and mind is failing. And I think people find themselves in one of those 2 places. But I want to fight it incessantly because of what I do for a living. And I feel like I still have some control over And I'm a big believer in the transcranial red light and getting these cute EEGs to see where the active areas of the brain are. I will tell you, lithium orotate, keto diet, controlling her glycemic profile, getting her moving, hyperbarics have had a profound impact on this journey.

Oh yeah.

Mood stability, even the frailty aspect has improved in the last few months, less being less frail.

Oh yeah.

More robust, more conversational, easier to engage, you know, better short-term recall. This is all anecdotal, just an N of 1 with my mom. But hyperbarics has been a part of that journey.

Huge, right? So my mother's 49, right? Been 49 for a minute or two, right? But my mother goes to the gym every morning. My mother drinks a gallon of water a day. My mother, you know, works out hard. You know, works hard, gets out there, does brain games, does hyperbarics, right? She's like, "Oh, my son's the hyperbaric guy, so I got to do hyperbarics," right? Yeah. Wherever she goes, she just goes and does hyperbarics because she's a true believer. You know, even when she had some surgery, she had some knee surgery, and they were like, "Oh wow, you're healing really well." Yeah, well, that's because I'm in hyperbarics. The guy's like, "What?" Yeah, yeah.

So pain threshold for them down too. Oh. And And I've used it in clients of mine for post-surgical recovery, you know, for athletic performance. And in short bursts, it doesn't seem like you create any kind of dependency, you know, not 100 days underwater, but, you know, once a day, 5 days a week, 2 days off. But again, back to the XPRIZE, when you're now doing intermittent hypoxia in combination with pressure, you're not varying the pressure, you're only varying the oxygen.

No, I'm actually pulling you to— I can go up to 29,000 feet in my hyperbaric— my hypobaric chamber, right?

Okay.

So when I evacuate the air, I'm giving you that true hormetic stress, just like if you were at altitude.

Ah, so you're not just simulating oxygen saturation.

Yeah, yeah.

You're simulating barometric pressure.

Like, I'm changing the barometric pressure for sure. Like, so what we did is we— so look, you fly in airplanes, and, and this is the problem, you got to get things through institutional review boards, and they move it There's no speed faster than glacial, right? And I'm just like trying to convince them that it's okay to go to 10,000 feet, to go to 8,000 feet. And they're like, you're gonna kill all the old people 'cause everybody has to be over 55 and less than 75, right? Okay, great. But everybody flies on an airplane and nobody checks your age before you fly on an airplane. And every cabin's pressurized to about 8,000 feet.

Right.

Everybody goes to Colorado to go skiing once a year, but you know, 10,000 feet, 12,000 feet, nothing. And you hike, right? Like when I ski, I go out of bounds, I hike up to the top. And then it's going down, right? Because why? Because it's fun, right?

Yeah.

But that's what we needed, and that's what we wanted to do. And when we simulated those altitudes and then pushed that hormetic stressor and then dropped you into hyperbarics, this is— bam. And then we did ice bath and red light therapy and being relaxed. So we did a whole novel combination where we have the key, we have literally the Click, right? Here it is. It's right here. This is exactly what you should do. Science-proven protocol. Yeah.

And so if I recall, it was 10 minutes of hypoxia followed by an hour of hyperoxia.

Yes, sir.

So oxygen deprivation initially.

Yep.

So that deprivation— so then you definitely run out of 2 atmospheres when you deprive them of Oxygen. You were—

wait, yeah, you were at 8,000 to 10,000 feet, I think was the protocol.

Okay, so 8,000 to 10,000 feet.

Yeah.

Then you bring them back down to what atmosphere?

To 2 atmospheres.

To 2 atmospheres, double the atmospheric pressure.

Yep.

And then increase the oxygen saturation.

Exactly.

Wow. Okay.

Right.

So 10 minutes deprived, 90 minutes.

If, if I had my druthers, it would be more like a half hour because I'm working with this girl who's on the deathbed.

What are you using, like a pulse ox or something to make sure Exactly.

We pulse ox monitor them the entire time. We're watching them. You have attendants that have to be there. They have to be trained. They have to know what they're doing, right? So when you're doing research—

It's a controlled environment.

Yeah, it's a very controlled environment, right? So we're checking people. If I had my druthers, I would take you to probably 12,000 feet and I would have you work out inside the hypobaric chamber. We don't work out inside a hyperbaric chamber 'cause bad things can happen with heat and movement and bearings and stuff like that and batteries and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Everything's got to be right in the hyperbaric chamber. In the hypobaric chamber, all bets are off, right? Because there's no risk of fire because there's less oxygen. It's even less of a risk of fire on the surface. Not that you can smoke, but, you know, right, it's not a thing. It wouldn't even— your cigarette wouldn't even light at, you know, 16,000 feet, you know.

So, but yeah, I've never seen somebody smoking on Everest, right? Yeah, exactly.

And, and then if you're working And if you're not breathing out, what are you doing? Look, what we're trying to do at altitude is a lot of things. That hormetic stress response, the increasing the number of hemoglobin response. I mean, that is your mammalian reflex, right? When I pull oxygen from you, you make more hemoglobin, right? That makes perfect sense. Why do you think the Dallas Cowboys go to Colorado to train, right? 'Cause they live at 5,000, 6,000, 7,000, 10,000 feet, and then they come down and they play because they're now full of red blood cells. Now they're ready to, wow, wow, wow, wow.

Of course.

Right? Legal blood doping. Thank you.

Yeah, it's legal blood doping. And so what you're seeing then, and I won't give any stats because maybe I shouldn't put those out there before the study is published, but this extension of healthspan and lifespan that you're seeing, and we won't give it a number, this extension of healthspan and lifespan that you're seeing, do you believe that that is coming from the Is it the increased efficiency in the mitochondria, in mitogenesis, the production of new mitochondria? Are you making the existing ones more efficient? Are they producing more ATP? Like, what mechanistically do you surmise is happening by depriving the body of oxygen? 'Cause I'm really fascinated by this because I have a hyperbaric chamber. I have an HBO tech out in Colorado. My house is at 10,500 feet. So I'm naturally hypoxic.

I love it.

So I have a gym upstairs, and working out there is very humbling because I do these HYROX-style workouts here with my son, and then I try to repeat the workout when I'm up there, and I'm like, good Lord.

You're like, I can't breathe.

I can't breathe. So I do a modified style of workout there, and then I go down and get in the hyperbaric, and I do have a sealed mask, a recirculating mask. Let me tell you something, when I get out of that thing, I can solve some complex math equations, right?

My PhD student and I just finished a paper on, is hyperbaric oxygen a performance-enhancing drug?

Dude, I am telling you, another N of 1, it is absolutely performance-enhancing. When I get out of there, I am calm, focused, centered, clear, awake. I actually want to challenge my— like, I actually feel like going back upstairs and working out again.

Oh, yeah.

But I also feel like I can solve complex problems, and I'm in that parasympathetic state of almost zen. Like, yeah, yeah.

I love that.

I love that, too. And it's hard to describe. I get the same thing when I talk about this a lot, too. Just putting on a rucksack, putting this little Aion— I'm wearing one now, this weighted vest. I have one that I use for working out, and I have this little 3.5-mile loop through the woods, 10,500 feet. Come back, I drop that thing on the deck, and I'm like, I feel like I found the Messiah. Like, yeah, I feel amazing. Got millions of dollars of equipment in this unit. Nothing makes me feel better than that.

Yeah.

So what is happening, in your opinion, by flicking this switch between hypoxia and hyperoxia? under pressure? 'Cause that's the key.

What we think, and this is pure supposition, we don't know anything, we think we're increasing mitochondrial efficiency, right? I think we are. I don't even want to say we, 'cause even the other researchers, you know, you see me, but there are 12 other researchers on this team, and there are great scientific minds on this team, right? So not just me. I mean, not that I'm a scientific mind at all, but you know what I'm saying? This team is well put together and perfect for what we needed. But all these hormetic stressors put together, all that stress that you want to put on your body, put on your body when you go to the gym, when you go to the ice bath, when you go to the red light, all the— all those stressors, man, all that stuff is actually good for you. So yeah, when you do that, you can make the mitochondria more efficient. And if you make the mitochondria more efficient, I liken it to a road, right? We want to pave the road, so we pave this much. Okay, and then I want a little bit more. Now I want a little bit more. I'm widening the road.

Mm-hmm.

I'm widening my ability to live, because right now you're a human, you can live pretty much 100% oxygen down to 16% oxygen. I want that more. I want to be able to live in 14% oxygen.

Why?

I want to be adaptive. I want to be able to go all the way up to 3.0, 300% oxygen effectively, right? I want to broaden that path. I want more muscle. I want to rip more fibers. I want to do this, you know.

Mm-hmm.

So it's, it's a, it's a wild thought, but, you know, we're, we're still trying to find the science and crack the code on this.

There's a lot Yeah, but I think that, you know, given the number of indications that it's approved for now, yeah, the relative safety, um, of it, and using gas pressure, hormetic stress, these are all things that we have a lot of data on in terms of, you know, strengthening the body and improving performance and function. And I think most people are after that cognitive benefit as much as they are the physical benefit, right? Athletic performance, great. But, you know, we all want to have our faculties, you know, going late into life.

2 things. So you said safety, and I just want to nickel on safety real quick. So we did a 102-year exhaustive study of every single accident with any kind of oxygen involved. And we even included Apollo 1. That's how complete this was, 'cause it was an oxygen environment. It was a hypobaric environment, but oxygen. Less than 150 people have lost their lives in 100 years. Now, that's a horrible number, trust me. But 150 years, or 100 years and 150 people, that is a very low number. That's way lower than aspirin. That's way lower than Tylenol. That's way lower than any of these other drugs, right? So it is not dangerous if done correctly, right? Like when you start to combine hydrogen and putting your red light therapy in and doing all the stupid things— In the hyperbaric chamber. No, in the hyperbaric chamber. Bad, bad juju, right? Take a class, learn, get your learn on and understand it, which, like I said, you should be lauded because you're doing it.

No, I really am.

Practice what you preach.

And I respect that I have such a large platform and I have to be authentic and intentional about the information I've been putting out there. And to the extent that it's been wrong, I want to correct it so that people don't follow me and start doing the wrong thing. I'm glorifying how efficient I am in my hyperbaric, right? Um, which, you know, I've done. And so that's why I'm so excited about this podcast, is like set the record straight, put some guardrails in so people can safely, um, so safely use these hyperbarics at scale. Uh, you know, we're, we're preparing to open 600 of these Ultimate Longevity Centers, and we have hyperbarics in all these Ultimate Longevity Centers. I know I don't want hundreds of thousands of people to come in and be a human experiment in our locations. I want 'em to get a physiologic benefit at a very high level of efficacy and safety and not take the risk.

If only you knew a guy to train all those people. You got a friend. Oh, he's asking me for a job right on my podcast.

This is great.

And the other thing is you talked about cognitive enhancement and especially cognitive enhancement in the declining age population. If only there was a paper that was There's a paper just written on that by Shai Efrati. That's exactly what it does. It's cognitive enhancement in a declining age population.

When you say declining age population, what do you mean?

We can't say elderly anymore, right? 'Cause it's the wrong word, right? So yeah, as you're getting older, you know, we did this, he did the study, right? So we're increasing cognitive function. We're increasing, you know, the multitasking and the single-tasking that's in that paper. We're talking, I wanna say it was 17 and 35. Don't quote me on the numbers, 17 or 35% increase in double-tasking, multitasking, and single-task work.

And this was in older ages?

Yeah, in the older ages, in the 55+ community, right?

I hate that you call 55+ older ages, first of all, 'cause I'm 55, right?

I'm 60 next year, man.

You can't tell me. Okay, well, just talk about yourself. I hate that, like, you know, when I started getting the AARP announcement, I'm like, screw you guys. Like, you know, I can get like a discount on my AAA. I don't want the discount.

Yeah, I hate it.

Yeah.

But that's all right, 'cause I wear it, man. I'm like, yeah, I'm 60. Come on, let's go. You wanna get on a mat?

Let's roll. And so how are you using hyperbarics in your daily regimen?

Sporadically, right? Because sporadically and, you know, a bit stochastically, right? So I'm doing this, I'm doing this. Higher pressure, lower pressure, higher pressure, lower pressure. 'Cause I personally believe that works. Like you, I have a Ferrari in my garage. Well, it's not a Ferrari. It happens to be a hyperbaric chamber. Same. Right?

I'm way more proud of my hyperbaric than a Ferrari.

Exactly, right? So I do this on a regular because I believe, right? And I'm taking blood, urine, saliva. I'm doing all the, you know, the mitochondrial function tests, working all this stuff, trying to figure all this out. There's a lot that goes into this. But look, why don't we have great research funded in hyperbarics? Who's the claimant for it? Who's going to make money on it?

Yeah, it's the problem. It's the same thing with peptides and a lot of these other things. It does not make them It's naturally occurring.

The trees make it. Um, yeah, it's not like, not like drug companies can make a million dollars on it. So there's no, you know, double, you know, there's no phase 2 clinical trial in hyperbaric oxygen therapy. My N at the University of South Florida was 420, and that's the largest one that's ever been done. The largest clinical trial in hyperbaric medicine history.

420. The TBI at USF.

The TBI at USF, right? So that's it, 420. And you think about a Phase 2D trial, that's like 40,000 or 50,000. No.

And when we talk about traumatic brain injury, is this at the time of a concussive injury, or is this traumatic brain injury from past traumatic brain injury and you're trying to recover function?

Yeah. So I just wrote the book Shattered to Strong, which is in editing right now, but you'll see that come out really soon. I'll give you a copy. But a concussion could be a traumatic brain injury, but all that involves, you know, could be mild, it could be moderate, it could be severe, right?

Right.

And it depends on how many, what the frequency, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, all that ties in somewhere with repeated hits or just a single hit, right? You could get laid out with a single hit or have repeated really bad hits and you can get away with it, right? So there's a lot in there that we don't know, right? Even when we're doing the endpoint of the study and we went to the FDA, the FDA was like, oh, we don't like the way you solved the traumatic— a cured traumatic brain injury. I'm like, well, what do you call it? And they're like, no, no, no, we don't have a cured traumatic brain injury, but we're just gonna tell you that we don't like yours.

Right.

We don't like your endpoint, but we don't have an endpoint, so make a new endpoint. And I'm like, oh my God, it's so stupid. But, you know, look, since papyrus, since the days of papyrus, 2,000 years before Christ, we had traumatic brain injury on the So we have had it on the books for 3,000, 4,000 years.

Yeah, of course. I mean, minimum banging their heads against stuff.

It's been written down. We don't have a cure. We don't have an endpoint. It's the only thing that I keep saying, we don't open it up. Look, if you look at the knee, I've done knee surgeries 'cause I've ripped up my knee, but you've had this little plica inside the knee, a little bursa sac and a little tip on the end. You can't even see it on the images, right? And that's a 1 millimeter thing that's causing hate and discontent in your knee. And, you know, the orthopedic surgeon's like, Wait till I get in there and I'll see. I'm like, what do you mean see? Well, we don't open the brain. We don't go look in the brain. We just treat it on the outside and go, ah, you'll be fine. What you need is a tincture of time. You wanna piss me off? That's how, when I got my traumatic brain injury, that's what they told me. You just need a tincture of time. And I was like, I'm like, I'm gonna kill somebody.

I don't want a tincture of time.

Yeah.

How did you get a TBI? Was it—

So I was driving my 1947 Chevy. Why? Because I dove 1,947 feet. So I bought a 1947 Chevy. Oh, that makes sense.

Okay, there's actually a correlation there.

I love it. So I got T-boned at 9 o'clock in the morning on September 7th of '21. T-boned in an intersection. I'd just come back from the gym. Knocked out.

Head hit the window?

My head hit the window. You know, no airbags in that car, right? Bam, bam. Thank God it's made of steel because the other car was totaled. My car was totaled. I'm locked inside. Shaved door handles. They can't get me out. I'm in the driver's seat.

Wow.

Out. Somebody ripped the door off the hinges, thank God, throw me in the back of the ambulance. I wake up on the way to the hospital. They're like, hey, you okay? I'm like, who am I? Who are you? Where am I? What's going on? I look, I'm in a pair of scrubs, right? I'm going to teach. I'm like, okay, all right. I get to the hospital and the guy's like, oh yeah, you had a really bad hit. 8mm hemorrhagic stroke, prefrontal cortex, left side, right?

Wow. Bam! Hemorrhagic stroke, bleeding.

Yeah. So they had me in the ICU for 2 days looking, you know, fall risk, the whole bit detailed in the book. It's a great story. And then 5 more days in the hospital. So 7 days in the hospital total. And then they're like, tincture of time. That's all you need. And I'm like, that's what you got? I'm like, I'm a TBI researcher. How about hyperbaric oxygen? They're like, well, you really don't want to do that. That's, that's a lot of blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you can't even spell hyperbaric oxygen. You're telling me not to do it? Right. Come on. At least know what you're talking about.

So you start— you did your N of 1 again, put yourself on high alert.

So I did my N of 1. So here's the bad part, right? Like, so that was September 7th. I get out of the hospital September 14th. By the end of October, I'm ready to take my own life. I am literally suicidal because I'm just like, I can't— I couldn't think anymore. I couldn't reason. I couldn't function. I couldn't read, right? So it's like, oh my God.

You couldn't interpret the words? Like, you could see them, but you just couldn't reason what they meant?

I had strabismus surgery when I was 5. So part of that strabismus surgery, they pulled the eye in, right? So when they pulled the eye in, I'd have a lazy eye, right? But they pulled it in and now it looks good, or it used to. Well, when you have this surgery, it's common to see 1.5 images, but then that goes away. Your compensation, your compensatory reaction in your body compensates for that double vision and you phase it together and you see one.

Ah.

Well, when I got hit in the head, I lost all that compensatory behavior and I went right back to ground zero, to the 6th grade, right after the accident. And I'm looking at people and I'm like, there's your nose and there's your nose. So when I'm reading, I'm reading the first line here and the second line with this eye and the second line here and the third eye with this. And I'm like, I can't understand anything. And I couldn't even understand enough to figure out what was going on.

Mm-hmm.

So, and then I wasn't sleeping. Common with traumatic brain injury sufferers, right? It's like, oh, it was horrible, right? So now I got despondent, but I needed to get there to get back, to get better. And that is the impetus of every single one single thing that I've done since then, right?

'Cause you never forgot that.

Hyperbaric oxygen, the ice baths, the saunas, the neurofeedback therapy, the cognitive behavioral therapy, structural energetic therapy, all that stuff came from my traumatic brain injury because I needed to fix myself. The lifelong aging, anti-aging, healthspan cure thing, it all came exactly from my TBI. Thank God I had that. It was the best thing that ever happened to me.

So I've been working out with my son lately, trying to keep up with him. as HYROX competitive athletes, and I've been starting to use this Perfect Amino pre-workout. I really like it. It's got BH4, it improves nitric oxide output, but it actually seems to stay after the workout and not crash. There's no stimulants, so no caffeine, no ma huang, nothing that gives you that kind of amped feeling. You just feel like you're maybe better able to move during the workout, like you have better blood flow. So if you're in the market for a pre-workout, check out the Perfect Amino pre-workout. It's my favorite now. Now let's get back to the Ultimate Human So let's talk about some non-brain benefits. A lot of people are touting healthier skin or youthful appearance to the skin. You know, the oxygen being provided to these dermal, subdermal layers of the skin actually improving the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles. Where do you fall in that?

Yeah, I mean, look, it's collagen synthesis, right? Fibroblast proliferation, collagen synthesis. We need that. It's not just a thing that the girls inject in their face. It's real stuff. Every cell in your body, most every cell in your body uses collagen, right? So if it's the skeleton of everything, so you need it. So hyperbaric oxygen makes it. I mean, you know, science wins.

Right.

Now, how it gets applied, yes, I have seen it. Yes, I've seen it reverse DNA damage. Yes, I've seen it.

You have?

But these are, these are Ns of 1, 2, 5, 10, right? These are all small numbers, right? So preclinical sort of data, but, you know, we've also seen it reverse diabetes. Diabetes, you know, type 2 diabetes. I've seen it reverse type 2 diabetes.

So improving insulin sensitivity.

Yeah.

Wow.

And this is insane to think. And, you know, I don't want to get killed or anything, but like, if we could do this, we could stop people from taking drugs. We could get people off of, you know, all these things. But it takes work. Why, why don't we have people going in it? Because you're a believer, you go in it, but how much does it take you? 80 minutes a day?

Yeah, 60 to 90 minutes.

And, you know, by the time you get there and you change and you unbox it and you drive there, like, nobody can have it in their garage like you and I do. But, you know, it's 2 hours out of your day. Who's got 2 hours in their day to go to a hyperbaric chamber for 40 times?

Yeah, right.

That's 2 months of your life you're never getting back, right? So not a lot of people have it. So patient compliance winds up being a real problem.

So, but in the, in ambient air, compressed air, do you think it's safe for, 'cause I'm thinking of like, if people could bio-stack, could they use a phone or a laptop under compressed air?

No, and the reason why is because those batteries are designed for— do you remember we were having problems on the planes with the batteries that were just blown?

Mm-hmm.

Right? And they now even have a bag that they've invented to seal inside of it in the unlikely event it has a problem on an airplane. The problem with that is you're sealed inside a hyperbaric chamber. So if you have a device in there and something goes wrong with it, you can't get out. And people are like, well, when you were underwater, Joe, you had a camera. I was like, yes. And if the computer caught on fire, I would take it and I'd throw it in the water. I had a hole in the bottom of my thing, and I'd throw it in the water, right? Not like in the ocean. I'd throw it in the ocean to get rid of it, right? And it wouldn't be in the habitat anymore. How are you getting out? That's the problem. And then what happens when you increase temperature? Oxygen comes out. You increase pressure. You increase pressure. Now you're pressurizing your unit. You can't even unzip it or open the door. I mean, you know, you can't get away from, you know, 15 pounds per square inch. You can't open that door. There's no way, right?

Right.

But, you know, you can't get it when it's increasing the pressure 'cause you're increasing the temperature. So yeah, it's, it's a no-go, right? If you have an issue, just keep the vol— like, look, the, the new hyperbaric chambers that are coming out, your HPOtek, it's ASME PVH 2. That's why I like them. They're going for FDA clearance right now. They're still in the process, whatever. But the ASME PVHO— I'm an engineer, right? It says engineers do this this way, right? We keep the, you know, the voltages down. We all— everything that goes in there is low. So you can have a type of a TV in there. You can have a monitor in there. You're allowed. It's just it has to be done the right way.

Yes.

So if you're— so what's the one thing we haven't had on us? Right now, our phones. My thumbs feel great. I don't have my damn phone on me.

My thumbs feel great.

Well, like, how much do you take a break? So you take a break from your phone, I hope, right? In the hyperbaric chamber, right? You take a break from your phone. Guys, you need a break from your damn phone. Your phone is causing most of these problems. This electromagnetic interference. I mean, there's a whole conspiracy theory behind all that, right? But like, boy, get away from that damn phone. Relax, take it down a notch, breathe. When you say you come out and you're like, Yeah. I feel great.

Yeah.

You feel great 'cause you haven't had your phone. That's part of it. And we see the healing is much better when people have no external stimulation. Don't go in the chamber to watch movies. Don't go in the chamber to— go in the chamber to have your alone time and keep that and cradle it and make it yours and be like, nobody's touching my hyperbaric oxygen time because I'm in here. 'Cause it makes me feel better. And if it makes you feel better, keep doing it. So ditch the phone is my whole thing.

Where do you see the future of hyperbarics going? Do you see it being common as a multivitamin in 10 years? Do you think that the research is advancing to a place where it's going to be a must-have? Someone's bio stack, obviously price dependent, space dependent, time dependent. I get all that. But for that person that is on that longevity biohacking anti-aging journey, you see it as being one of those must-haves?

100%. I do. I do. I see it's ubiquitous now. It has to be done the right way.

Okay.

The reason why we have such a great safety record in 102 years, less than 150 people gone. All right, we have a great safety record because we follow, build to this standard ASME PVHO stuff, right? And so we got to kind of get away from those, you know, hodgepodge ones, the ones that aren't being made right, and we'll continue to have a great safety record.

Coming in from China, they— and everybody just, you know, wants to buy it based on price. And I feel like if you're paying $100,000 for a hard shell—

Oh, you got to negotiate price with me. I'm like, Really? You're the guys that I'm talking to that I'm like, you are multi-multi-millionaire and we're talking about the difference between $120,000 and $30,000. What is your life worth? To me, it's a no-brainer. Now I get it. I'm not trying to be a big man on campus, like, but I get it. Price is an independent variable is a thing, but your life is not worth taking that risk. So have it engineered the right way and do it the right way. But if you do that, I see it everywhere in every home for anti-aging, for whatever we're calling healthspan now, longevity. I think that it's truly, it's the one true force multiplier that everybody, like guys like Bryan Johnson are saying, oh, it's the one true thing. And I mean, I talk to him.

Myself too.

Huh?

No, myself too. I mean, I've had some of this stuff.

Yeah, so like guys are saying it's the right thing. I even got in an argument with Dave Asprey on stage over it.

Really?

Oh yeah. No, you know, Dave did the whole intimidation thing, right? Like, he stands up on stage and I'm like, bro, this ain't gonna go the way you think it's gonna go. But, you know, uh, in all lightheartedness, we had a good time afterwards. But, uh, you know, it's the kind of thing that I believe is gonna show up everywhere because it moves the needle. Everything else is like, oh, put this magic cream on and it does— oh, come on, really?

Yeah.

I see way too much of that garbage.

Yeah, me too.

So unfortunately, look, science wins over BS, and the mechanisms of action work. And if you need collagen, this synthesizes collagen. That's all there is to it. I mean, let's not, you know—

Overcomplicate it.

Yeah, it works for problematic foot wounds. Does that mean it's gonna work for a bad arm wound? Probably. Is there data on it? No. Is there science behind it? Yes, right? Like, so like, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let's not confuse, like, your industry was, you know, You know, your lifespan or your, how long you're gonna, when people are gonna die, right? So like, let's not confuse your health insurance with somebody that actually cares about your health and is gonna make you live longer, right? So like, this is the kind of thing that, look, it's gonna make you live longer. It's gonna increase your telomere length. It does that. It's gonna increase your cognitive function. It does that. We know it. The papers are there, right? So stop with the whole, oh yeah, I'm just gonna let insurance pay for me, you know? Yeah.

No. Area. I saw a video by Dr. David Minkoff in Tampa, and he's somebody I hold in very, very high regard, by the way, at LifeWorks. I have personally seen him work miracles in oncology patients. And his whole approach to cancer is don't just go after the villain, the cancer, also treat the host. Host. You know, um, I use this analogy a lot. When a fish gets sick, first thing we do is clean the tank. His whole approach is keto diet, uh, cleaning the tank, getting rid of heavy metals, mold, mycotoxins, parasites, viruses, all these things that are causing these low-grade inflammatory infections, and also treating, treating the cancer. And he uses these different stalking horse, uh, methods of, you know, driving, uh, blood sugar down, uh, with a keto diet, further down insulin, introducing chemo in conjunction with glucose to increase the uptake. But he swears by hyperbarics in oncology patients. And I don't know if that's something where you want to tread, but—

No, absolutely. Look, I am intrepid.

Cancer is a metabolic shift, right? All cancer was at one time a healthy cell. It's not something that happens to us. Something happens within us. Something caused that cell's metabolism to shift. Maybe it was radiation, maybe it was toxicity, you know, maybe it wasn't, you know, genetics, number of things. So it's not this rogue DNA. It is, it is metabolic shift in the, in, in the cell from healthy metabolism to—

Yep.

Sick metabolism. And he, um, uh, I, you know, has been out saying, listen, hyperbarics are a part So, hyperbarics is a big part of our oncology regimen. We treat our cancer patients with hyperbarics. Where do you fall on that? And what evidence have you seen, if any?

Right, so John Feldmayer wrote a whole bunch of papers on this oncology thing, right? So we know that chemotherapeutic agents are made more toxic in a hyperbaric environment, which kind of stands to reason. You increase VEGF, vascular endothelial growth factor, With VEGF, yeah. With VEGF, right? So with VEGF, but you're getting VEGF from hyperbaric oxygen therapy. It's one of the mechanisms of action. So, okay, if you are feeding that and you're doing chemo, you probably don't want to do drugs like cisplatin or disulfiram because those are 2 absolutely known that they are made much worse in hyperbaric oxygen. So here was my thought, and Feldmayer and company were like, you're an idiot, right? And I'm like, okay, I'm just a young researcher, right? So I said, instead of giving this much chemo and then letting them go off and do their thing, give them this much chemo, less, and then do hyperbaric oxygen therapy if chemotherapeutic agents are made more toxic. So I said, oh, that seems more better. And he's like, look, jokingly, he said, you're going to get yourself killed, man. Some big pharma guy's going to whack you. I'm like, no, come on, man. Seriously.

Yeah.

He's like, no, the problem is we don't I don't know how much. It's made more toxic, but so stay away from those. But I'll tell you this right now, what we're doing is I just finished a pre-paper proposal to a pediatric cancer foundation to talk about neuroblastoma and glioblastoma.

Mm-hmm.

And taking beta-hydroxybutyrate to induce ketosis and remain in a ketotic state, and then do hyperbaric oxygen on top of that without chemotherapy, to shrink tumors. So there's some pre-work done by Prof. and D'Agostino on this, which is great stuff. And it looks good, especially with the beta-hydroxybutyrate in combination. Look—

Ketone body, yeah.

Yeah, ketone bodies, right? So oxygen is not helpful to cancer, right? It's hurtful to cancer, right? And then sugar, cancer loves sugar. So if we take away the sugar and we give it the oxygen, which it doesn't like, It's gonna start shriveling up, right? So we're gonna see this proposal, but that's in rats— or in mice, actually, technically. So we're gonna do this proposal, and, uh, from what we're— the, the pre-data, the preclinical data says that we're gonna shrink tumors. So can you help? But remember, this is like a traumatic brain injury. Cancer is kind of like, do you have testicular cancer? Do you have glioblastoma? Do you have, you know, myeloma? Whatever, you know, you could have any kind of cancer. So how do you treat cancer? 84 different ways. I mean, you know, but you can't go wrong by oxygenating and reducing the sugar. I mean, sugar's the devil in my opinion.

Yeah.

I'm just saying, right? So get rid of the sugar in your life and up the oxygen. Like I keep saying in the book, says hyperbaric oxygen doesn't cure anything, but it helps your body help itself.

Yeah.

And that's what we want, right? We want an organism that will fix itself better, right?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I talk about this theory of immunofatigue all the time, where it's a slow, progressive overwhelming of the immune system. And, you know, as we become less capable of defending ourselves and also less capable of policing ourselves, you know, the immune system is watching the senescent cells and cellular autophagy and, you know, making sure a CTC, a circulating tumor cell, doesn't slip by. whoa, that doesn't have the right metabolism. Let's kill that. You know, natural killer cells can kill other natural killer cells that are not performing right. It's like having the SEAL Team 6 unit inside your house all the time, just making sure everything's running efficiently. And I think the immune system doesn't get enough credit for that because most people think of it as only protecting us, not also policing us.

Right.

And, you know, nothing can go wrong, in my opinion, by having a healthier, more efficient immune system.

Yeah, 100%.

This is why age is itself a disease.

Yeah.

All right.

It truly is.

Yeah.

I know, I think they just renamed it as a disease, to be honest with you. Did they really? Yeah, I think they just renamed age as a disease. Interesting to me. You're young, come on.

Yeah, I thought I just came up with that on the podcast, so apparently not.

We have an overactive immune system. We really do. I mean, right now, what's the worst stress that you have? Like somebody didn't like my Facebook post or somebody said mean things to me in the car. I mean, our ancestors used to get chased by saber-toothed tigers, for Christ's sake. Come on, let's be real here. We don't have a lot of stresses in our life, right? So when we see something, we go like immediately overboard, right?

Right.

All these killer cells, everything pops to attention. Everybody starts like doing the thing that they're doing, right? And it's like, all right, all right, calm down. So you see systemic inflammatory response as a consequence of people with an overreactive immune system. So we just kind of want to quell that down a little bit.

Yeah. Finally, I want to round out this XPRIZE again, and then I've got a bunch of VIP questions for you. The VIP community knew you were coming on and they've got a bunch of questions for you. Um, hypoxia.

Yep.

And, uh, pressure is the sort of staple of this, but you are also using other therapies.

Yep. So red light, red light sauna.

Um, and, and red light, do you recall the nanometer wavelengths you're using?

No.

Okay, so usually red light therapy, uh, sauna.

Yep.

Uh, ice bath. Yeah. Are you, um, going, uh, sauna, sauna to ice bath?

No, I'm not doing the back and forth. Okay, we just did the one, right? So the one exposure Look, we're looking for that 13% increase in brown adipose tissue, the, you know, the cold shock proteins. We're looking for all that stuff.

Yeah, so cold shock proteins, peripheral vasoconstriction.

Yep, exactly.

Release of norepinephrine, dopamine. Yeah, activation of brown fat.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, all those hormetic stresses which are free, um, when you expose yourself to cold water. I talk about it all the time. I'm like, guys, you don't even need to spend whatever, $7,000 to $10,000 on a cold plunge. You can take a cold shower.

3 to 5 minutes, you're done, right? Yeah, like, let's, let's not overkill it, right? So sauna, 20 minutes, you know, something like that. 20 minutes.

So how are you stacking these modalities? Are they on alternate days? So hyperbaric is consistent 5 days on, right?

Yeah, hyperbarics is 5 days on, hypobarics is 5 days on. If I had the perfect world designed, right? Hypobarics in the morning, hyperbarics in the afternoon. And between that time, in that 4 or 5 hour time, go to the freaking gym, get your gym on, right? Then drink water, then do your red light, then do ice bath, then do— yeah, it's hard because I don't like to do ice bath and the sauna before and after one another. I like to give that space. That's my personal opinion.

Yeah, I do the ice bath in the morning. I do sauna night before bed. I actually find that it has a marked increase in my sleep score. I just got back from a crazy trip in Europe. I spoke in each day. I spoke in Utah, then I went to New York, then I went to London, then I went to Cannes, then I went back to London, then I went to Maine, then I went to Alabama, then I went to Hamburg.

So it was like getting scheduled immediately.

It was brutal. But, um, I got back and I did, uh, red light. I did about 25 minutes in the, in, in the sauna.

Yeah.

Took a cool shower. Didn't want to cool myself off too much. Took a cool shower, went to bed, and pegged a 97% sleep score and 97% recovery. Felt amazing the next day.

Holy mackerel.

And I noticed that when I do sauna close to bedtime, dry off, I allow myself to cool off in the shower. Don't do the ice bath, or maybe I'll do one, 15 to 30 seconds to bring my temperature down a little bit. I sleep so much better. It's like a secret sleep hack.

100%. Just do it. That's exactly what I would be winding up doing if, if the world was perfect. Now granted, we know the world isn't perfect, right? And hyperbarics in the afternoon is the best for— from your cycles and everything. But when can I do it? I can only do it in the morning. That's the time that I have the person watching me, because somebody always watches me in the hyperbaric chamber. I'm not a, you know, not do as I say, not as I do. No, that's not me, right? So somebody's watching me, and the only time they can watch me is in the morning. So I got to do it in the morning, right? So you work out if it works out sort of thing, right?

You know. So do you have one of those HPO Tech single units. And then, yep, you're sitting in there and you're doing your—

Somebody watches me and all I do is breathe. Everybody's like, oh yeah, you can watch TV in those and they have a tablet that you can— I'm like, I don't care. I don't care. I don't— A, nothing with a battery goes inside my chamber at all, ever.

That thing has got to—

It's wired, right? Less than 28 volts per ASME PVHO code. But I don't do any of that TV watching. As a matter of fact, I don't even— I stopped subscribing to cable because I don't even watch TV anyway. So what the hell did I subscribe to cable for? So I don't subscribe to any of that stuff. I don't watch TV. I don't try not to look at my phone if I can possibly avoid it. Although you know you have to text and so forth. But you know, I mean, and you're using the yep the closed mask. I'm I'm using the bib system and I'm breathing in and out, right? Repeating as necessary, and I take those deep because look everybody when they do ice bath they do the whole ha ha ha ha. Well, what's this? This is sympathetic nervous system. This is parasympathetic nervous system. So I wanna relax. When I come out of that, I am so zen-like. And that's the one thing, like being underwater for 100 days, the one thing that I had to do was I had to look in the mirror every morning at myself. And there wasn't a lot of people visiting. I had a couple of visitors, but not a lot. So I did a lot of inward looking during that time. And I was like, dude, you better chill out. You got some things you gotta fix. I'm looking in the mirror at you. I don't like you very much. Let me change that crap right now.

Yeah.

Right? So relax. That's the key, man.

I love it.

So that's what you do in there. Make it your time. That's, you know, look, that's what we need. We need decompression time, right? Phew, let me out. Let me off that phone.

Maybe people, maybe people start to think of their hyperbaric time as that meditation time, that zen time, that alone time, that quiet time.

Please.

Yeah.

Please do your meditative breathing in there, whatever. I mean, you know, do your Wim Hof breaths. I don't care what you do, you know, just like Chill out.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the— and then maybe it's not such a detractor from your day, you know? Right. My, my, my old, uh, approach was how can I be more efficient in there and bio-stack things while I'm in the hyperbaric? And you're really reframing my—

No, but if you want to stack, stack by breathing, stack by meditating, because you got to meditate anyway, right? I mean, it's all a mindset thing. We know we got how to meditate, you are a captive audience, bro. You're going nowhere.

And it's only you. Yeah. No, nice thing, my wife loves it because no one can talk to her while she's in there. She's all about the meditation.

She's my people.

Yeah, she's— you would love Sage. She's like, yeah, don't anybody talk to me and I'll just go in here by myself.

Yeah.

Um, Dr. Dutra, this has been amazing. You're a savage. Um, and, um, I, I, I wind down all of my podcasts by asking my guests the same question. Um, There's no right or wrong answer to this question.

Oh.

But what does it mean to you to be an ultimate human?

Oh, wow. What does it mean to be an ultimate human? So I'm guessing for me, for Joe, it's living up to the potential that the good Lord gave me, right? So every morning I hit my knees, I thank him for the day, and I say, take my hands, tell me what it is you want me to do. And I go off and do whatever it is that he kind of guides me towards, right? So maximizing that potential, I think I'm doing good by helping. I hope, I hope that's what I'm doing is helping people. So, you know, being a good human is a rare quantity today. So just kind of try and help as much as you can and be around long enough to help more people, right? If I can live to 110, which is my goal year, I'm going for 110. So I'm barely halfway through my life right now.

Well, let's see how your research comes. I mean, if your research comes out the way It looks like it is. You take the X Prize, 110s in your mirror.

Easy peasy, right? They're like, "Oh, they just approved resveratrol in rats and da da da da da." Now they're going to move it to humans. And I'm like, "Yeah, it's the wrong thing." I realize that's a hormetic stress, but that's not what we're looking for, right? Everybody's looking for the quick fix pill.

Yeah, it's not going to be a resveratrol or NAD or. You got to work.

Yeah. The ultimate human works, right?

Yeah.

I see what you do here.

Yeah.

You walk around this place, you live it.

Oh yeah.

You literally live it. So thank you. You gotta live it. And that's the way, it's the only way.

Thank you so much. I'm gonna follow your journey. Hopefully you are going to be the finalist for the XPRIZE. I'll have you back on.

Pinoli, I hope so.

Excited about your research and where it's going. Thank you for shedding so much light on hyperbarics, this biohack that really doesn't have an authority in the space. And you and Dr. Saunders, I consider, he was your student, authorities in the space. And I really appreciate you coming on and clarifying.

Thanks so much.

Anytime, anytime.

Anything you need.

Thank you so much. And until next time, guys, that's their science.