ADHD & Success: Navigating Neurodivergence in the Workplace with Sarah Olaifa

Welcome to the Overgivers Anonymous podcast. My name is Angela Mondor, also known as the Geeky Girl. In this podcast, we're going to be talking about some amazing things to help you get over overgiving. Hi, and welcome to this episode of the Overgivers Anonymous podcast. My name is Angela Mondor, and I'm also known as the Geeky Girl, and I can't wait to invite our latest guest. Her name is Sarah Olaifa, the founder and CEO of CognifyMe, a human-first first performance platform, helping neurodivergent professionals and their managers work better together through work style matching, executive function tools, and burnout prevention insights. I, I love this. She is also the host and producer of the Divine Enigma podcast, a show dedicated to navigating the complexity of being neurodivergent in the workplace and business world with authenticity and purpose. With over a decade of experience leading complex programs and business transformation initiatives, Sarah combines her lived experience of ADHD and dyslexia with strategic leadership expertise to drive inclusion, wellbeing, and performance in organizations. I love that, Sarah.

Thank you for the introduction. Thank you so much.

Well, thank you for being here today, and I can't wait for us to get to know you better.

I know, I'm looking forward to this conversation. I'm very excited. So yeah.

That's awesome. And before we started chatting, you said you're in London, um, and then you said for now.

For now, yeah, for now. I'm, I'm navigating the idea of possibly moving away from London and moving to another city altogether. I'm kind of discussing that with my partner right now. And there's a few cities that we were quite interested, one being possibly Dubai, another being possibly Malta, but we haven't decided yet. So we're kind of thinking maybe the UK might not be for us anymore, although I do love the UK and I have lots of friends and family here. It's something I'm, I'm really kind of trying to figure out as a, as a someone with a very busy brain and busy business and navigating a 9 to 5 all at the same time and thinking, how is this going to work? So for now, I'm in London. I enjoy London. I love the opportunities that you can get in London. But I feel like there's a season that I need to change where I am right now. Yeah.

Fair enough. I mean, my husband's retiring. He's a teacher. He's also an automotive technician. But so he's retiring this year. And we're doing a season change too. So we're moving across the country. We're moving to the Far East. We're still staying in Canada. But we are up and moving and pulling up our roots, so we actually know where we're headed. So that's, that's at least good. We've been planning it for about 3 years now.

Oh gosh.

I actually, I actually know somebody who lives in Malta as well, so interesting.

I came, I came back from Malta just last week, and, you know, going there was so lovely. Like, I just feel the Maltese people are so friendly, so lovely. And it's just such a nice little small island where you can quite easily integrate. And I've also noticed a lot— they're very technical there, they're very forward-thinking in tech. Everything is technical, it's just much faster, much more efficient. So that's one of the cities I'm potentially looking at moving to. So, and again, recently this year I went to Dubai as well, and again, that's quite— they're moving quite fast as well, and there's a lot of opportunities there for growth and development. So yeah, these are things I'm thinking about and what the future might look like in the next couple of years, I would say. Yeah.

That's awesome. And I think it's interesting, like, from a, um, you know, from our business perspective, um, you know, deciding where we're going to work from. Obviously, with my husband being a teacher, I mean, his options are a little smaller than mine, right, in terms of like certifications and all that kind of stuff. Um, whereas, you know, as an entrepreneur who I mean, I mostly work online, so I can pretty much work from anywhere, which kind of opens up the world a bit.

Yeah, same. Like, when you got a laptop and you can connect with people that way, there's really a lot more freedom in terms of where you can kind of locate yourself. I still do appreciate the in-person, like, actually meeting people physically, getting to know them, but I feel majority of work that I do, I can essentially do it online. and really be quite productive at it. So options in terms of moving abroad will be quite easy for me. My husband, he's in a bit of a difficult situation because his, his job is very much people-based, so you have to be physically there. So trying to navigate that and figure it out if he can move and do the same thing in another country. So this is where the, the compromise and how to work that together is, is the challenge. That's what I'm having right now, but it will happen eventually. Because I'm someone that when I want to make a decision, it's just going to happen.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that having the knowledge of who you are and what makes you, what makes, what works for you and, and how you want to work also helps with making these decisions. Cause then you're saying this place doesn't feel right for me, but, and like you've mentioned a few things, you're like, well, I kind of liked the way this works and I liked the way that works and it plays into Uh, you being able to create your next best situation for you and your next step in your career.

Yeah, I'm a very big believer of designing your own life. You live your life by design rather by despite of. Like, you don't have to live despite of your situation. Like, I have to live in this situation. And for some situations and where you are, sometimes you have to do it despite of because of where you are in your life, the season you're in. But I really do believe that you can live life by design, design your life exactly how you want. And it might take a little bit of time building that life, figuring out what it is you're good at, not so good at, what works for you, what doesn't work for you. Some people get there faster than others. Some people like me, I'm a bit, uh, you know, I'm a bit late to the party of kind of having that self-actualization of what I really want. But I think, um, it is possible to live your life by design, and you can have a little bit of everything. I think— I honestly believe it's possible to have everything you want in life, but just not all at the same time. And that's where the compromise comes. So it's, it's down to you to figure out how that looks like for you and how you want your life to be designed and the type of lifestyle you want for yourself. But it does take time. I mean, I think people think that they can live this, um, you know, this laptop life and, you know, you— they're making 6 figures, 8 figures, and their life is perfect. And it doesn't work like that. And the reality is a lot of people, unless you come from wealth already, um, work hard to build those things and make that life for themselves. So I'm quite realistic in how I want to design the life for me. And I know it's going to take a little bit of time. It's going to take a bit of discipline, which is hard for me with the ADHD brain that I have. So I have to put a lot of restrictions, um, with, with certain things that I do when it comes to spending. But, um, eventually you do get there by actually knowing what works for you and what is actually going to make you happy. And I think just enjoying that process as well, which I'm learning to do that. It's hard, but learning to enjoy the process even in the difficult times brings growth in you because you're always going to become, I think, a better person, a better version of yourself. Through difficulty, you can grow and develop and learn. So yeah, that's, that's, I think that's, that's where I am in terms of the season I'm in in my life. Yeah, yeah.

Well, and I think that it comes— you kind of mentioned this already— it comes easier for some people than others.

Yes.

Um, and like, I would say that I, I mean, I've always been a glass half full person. Um, and it This is what's interesting to me about relationships, right? My husband has, he's a glass half empty guy and I'm a glass full person. And so we've had to learn, of course we've been together for over 30 years, so I mean lots have changed, right? We've evolved a lot together. But so for him it doesn't come easy to say design your life. And for me it's always been like, well, I can design it. I can't have, like you said, I can't have it all right now, but like here's where I wanna head.

Yeah.

One of the things that helped us a lot, even in our marriage, like we both worked in this with, for the same company at one point. And one of the theories that comes from Stephen Covey is begin with the end in mind. And so whenever we've had this like, here's what I want, here's what I want kind of moments, and they're like, I'm not sure if they're— we want the same things, we've always reflected on that and gone, okay, but here's where I want to go. Do you want to go there with me? Like, are you here? Like, are you ready for that trip? Because this is where I want to head. And then we can say, for example, like there's— I mean, this is silly, but it's a really easy way to see it. I wanted to buy a trailer and I wanted to camp across Canada to go west. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

And my husband's like, I do not want a trailer. I do not want to camp. I'm over it. And I'm like, okay, but do you wanna go across Canada with me? Like, do you wanna do a car trip across Canada with me? Oh yeah, I'll do the car trip across Canada, but I wanna camp. Okay, well, if we did the car trip across Canada, that's still our end in mind, that's what we wanna do, we could stay in hotels. Would that work better for you? Oh yeah, I'd like that better, right? Like, so—

Mm-hmm.

When you're looking at designing your life, it isn't just about all the little tiny things, do they all have to be right? But like, are you still heading in the direction you wanna go? And for some people, it's just easier for them to see that, and some people it takes a lot more effort, I think.

It takes a lot more effort, I think, sometimes because of environment. So I think it depends on the environment that you're seeing around you and the people that you're around can determine how far you see yourself in terms of what success looks like. For me, a lot of the time, like, like I've entered this entrepreneur journey and before I was a 9-to-5er. And one thing, the thing that I learned about the corporate world, they put you in a little box where they make you feel like that's the whole world and that's how everything is like.

Yes.

And so when you're in a kind of like an incubator or like a kind of a box, I guess, that shields you from what is happening outside, you stay in jobs for maybe 1 year and you feel amazing, 2 years, 3 years, then 5 years pass and you're still in that same job and you feel like even if you come out, what could happen because the environment has conditioned you to feel that this is the only thing you can kind of do. And so your mind isn't open to realize that actually I can have different. But because you're so conditioned to the environment you're in, you don't think you can do anything different. And that's why I think some people probably— and I'm not talking for everyone, but I think a lot of the time some people struggle with the idea of how they can design their life because they're in an environment that stifles them to tell them, this is where you are supposed to be, and even if you want to try something different, it'll be way too difficult. So it's better that you stay in the safe, you know, safe place where you're getting your paycheck every month, you've got your benefits, you've got everything you need here. Why not go? Why go elsewhere? You know, and even going elsewhere, it's going to be hard. So do you really want to put yourself under that? And I think for me, I'm talking about myself, and I can't speak for everyone. But for me, I think what held me back and what took me such a long time to realise that I can do more was the fact that I was confined in an environment that didn't allow me to thrive. You know, ideally, you're in a system that doesn't let you thrive. And so therefore, you don't feel that there's anything beyond what you do unless you're around people that can validate what you're doing is actually going to make you a better person, or it's going to bring back the best in you because you're in the right type of environment with the right circle of people. And it takes strength sometimes to come out of that because it's a conditioning, and fear is what holds people back more than the faith in believing that things are better. So you're almost scared to leave that situation, so you stay there. So I think that's what makes it for many people. That's what takes them a long time to kind of believe they can design the life they want for themselves. And then another thing probably holds people back is probably as well the lack of discipline as well. Is the thing is people seem to think, and maybe I'm talking about maybe people that are Gen Zs or much maybe some millennials that are really young who feel like, oh, I can have this life. But don't understand it does require a bit of discipline. It does require a little bit of sacrifice. It does require sometimes you can't have everything straight away. You have to you have to sow seeds over time, and sowing seeds can look different for different people. That could be making sure that I don't spend all of my money at the end of the month and put something in the savings account, or that could mean. taking myself out of that, my comfort zone, and in the evening going to networking events to meet people so that I can, you know, better educate myself about what I can do. Or doing a course that means even if you're tired, you have to do that course so that can give you the skill set to do the thing that you want to do. So I think that's another thing that kind of keeps people from actually designing the life that they want. not having that discipline and that mindset to believe that you've got to do some element of work to get what you want as well. So I would say that's what holds a lot of people back in my, in my experience. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And, and for some people are naturally, or maybe even culturally depending on how you're raised, right, to work harder. But I think that one of the things I find interesting, I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was in my 30s, and my daughter was diagnosed She was in high school. Um, but I think the interesting piece to me in terms of this, this work-hardiness or whatever the case may be, like, I had to live my whole life and figure out— I had to work hard to figure out how to survive in the world. And nobody, nobody said, oh, it's okay, you've got this, that, or the next thing, and here's how we're going to help you cope. I had to figure out my own coping mechanisms. Um, and I think that it seems— and, and again, like, this is only just my own family's, right? Like, just like you said, like, my own family's experience and, you know, people I've chatted with. But, um, it almost— I almost feel like it's a gift that I didn't get diagnosed till later because I had to work so hard at my coping mechanisms that I knew that I had to work harder than a neurotypical for all the things.

Mm-hmm.

And so even though it was frustrating and you know, it sort of downtrodden in some places where it's like, oh, why do I have to work so hard? It was just that I know I have to, so let's go, right? But then learning how to do it without burning out, I think, is— that's the tweak, right?

I think for me as well, I was late diagnosed neurodivergent, and I had to make a lot of mistakes to navigate the workplace, to navigate business, to navigate Even making friends because I just knew I was just different. I felt like, I felt like for me that everyone was given this handbook on how to navigate life and I didn't get the memo. And I, I was just trying to figure out why is it that some people seem to have this straight route where they go, you know, they go to university. They get married, they get a good job, and I'm like literally failing in everything and not knowing what to do. And this is, this is another one I wanted to touch on, of the reason why sometimes people cannot figure out how to design their life. Those were 2 examples I gave, but one of the reasons is that maybe because you're trying to work— your brain is trying to work against a system that wasn't designed for you.

Mm-hmm.

It can cause immense overwhelm. You know, and you go into spirals of not knowing how to cope. One of the biggest problems I had was I was constantly job hopping. So, you know, I would do a job, I would mask and act like I could do the job. By the time I got to the job, it was getting too boring for me, or it was getting too hard for me, or I couldn't do it. So either I would quit before they would fire me.

Yes.

Maybe they might fire me, I don't know. But like, um, a lot of the time I would jump hot because I didn't— I, I was just trying to think, look, I need to get money, but I know I can't stay in this job for so long. And a lot of the time where I stayed in places for a lot longer, what helped me was my personality. The fact I was very chatty, I was able to get on with people quite well, but never deep, never deep conversations. And this is what— this is the thing that people always kind of Misunderstood about me is that I had lots of people around me. I had lots of friends. I would chat to lots of people, but I never had, like, um, I would say high maintenance relationships. It would be very low maintenance. It'll be as a— I would text you, call you, I would meet you at a specific time and date, but never like a deeper friendship. And just going back in my life, and I've been going to therapy about this as well, I kind of realized like I do know a lot of people, but you know, I, I don't really have any like sort of really, you know, high maintenance relationships. And maybe that's— maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe it's the fact that I can't maintain those type of relationships because when I look back at, you know, a lot of, you know, my youth, when I would meet up with friends, I was the one always late. I would never be on time for things. You know, I wasn't— I wasn't— I didn't demonstrate, uh, I didn't demonstrate, um, you know, attributes of a good friend. And so I think after a while people got fed up with me. Oh, Sarah's always late, she's always never coming to places on time, or she's always— she never has enough money, and all these different things. And looking back and I'm like, that makes a lot of sense. That probably was my dyslexia and ADHD, but I didn't know that. the overspending of money, getting myself into debt, always late for appointments, not understanding like I need to be here at 7 but I'm leaving the house at quarter to 7 kind of thing, just having that time blindness.

Right.

And when you go— when, when I go back, I realize, oh, this is probably why I don't have deep friends and I have a lot of surface-level relationships. So it can put you in a very dark place in the sense that, oh, if I don't have friends, then what am I gonna do now as I get older? Are people gonna be around for me? But what I've learned is that— and through like speaking to my therapist and stuff— what I've learned is that you, you don't have to know someone for years for them to know you and really appreciate you. You can even meet them for a few months, and if that relationship is a deep relationship that you want to invest in It will— it would work, and it will—

it will—

it will work out, and you will have that friendship that you're looking for. But it just is— it's almost like I grieve that time because I think that if I had really made the effort— but then it wasn't my fault because I didn't know. Right, yeah, yeah. I would have much more deeper friendships. So some of those things can kind of hold you back in terms of building those networks to allow yourself to design the life that you want as well. And that's where the neurodivergency aspect comes into it, um, in terms of maintaining relationships and friendships and making sure you're there for people properly. And then feeling the sense that as well that, oh, I'm there for people but they're not there for me kind of thing. Because when I'm there for people, I'm there for the people. I'm just not reliable when it comes to timekeeping and all the other stuff. So yeah.

Yeah, well, and I think it's interesting because I look back at my, my youth and it was— I had a very different My mother moved every year, so I was in a different school every year, those kinds of things. So what that, how that impacted from an ADHD perspective, I have no idea. But like, from junior high to high school, even though we moved, I stayed in the same school because I was just sick of moving, right? And I got bullied quite, quite a lot. And I think a lot of the reasons why I got bullied was because, because of my ADHD. I also had like, what I saw, I said. I didn't think about, you know, what I was saying. But I think that what's interesting about what you said about that whole deep relationship thing. Is that I have great relationships with a very small circle of people, and we are all the kind of people who will support each other and be each other— be there for each other. And they know that if I don't call them, it's not because I don't love them. I just didn't think of calling, right? I have one girlfriend who— she's— she calls me, right? Like, she just— she just calls me. And there was one day I called her, and she goes— as soon as she picked up, she goes, you okay? Is everything okay?

Yeah, why?

She goes, because you never call me. I'm like, I'm sorry, I was just thinking about you, that's all, right? So where I've surrounded myself with people who just support my own bit of crazy, right? My own little bit of spiciness, so to speak. And, and I accept them for their spiciness, and they accept me for mine. And, you know, through that, we have great relationships. I have object permanence with people. I mean, I know some ADHD people do. Like, if you're not in my sights, it's not that I'm not thinking about you. It's not that I don't care. But you just, you know, I'm not gonna call you. And so I think that's important is finding out who, who you're going to most vibe with. And same with networking in your business too, right?

Mm-hmm.

I'm at a point where working with people who don't respect my own version of spice, It's just too hard because I just don't want to mask anymore.

It's just hard, like it's hard work, like you just don't want to have to be someone you're not. It's interesting because I was on a panel before this call and one of the questions I don't really like people asking me but they love to bring it up is imposter syndrome and I just said, you know what, I don't think there's anything that— I don't think there's no such thing as imposter syndrome. I literally just said that. I think the whole system is an imposter, and everyone doesn't know anything, and we're all pretending. And, um, everyone's just pretending to be something they're not. Maybe we're like, what? But that's what I honestly think. I think, like, the only reason why you feel like you're an imposter— because you're in a room of people that don't get you, do you know what I mean? You're trying to— you're trying to fit into a room that doesn't fit with the person that you are. So you will feel like, oh, I'm an imposter, because You know, this room isn't with people that I'm comfortable with, you know. And I think that the good thing about having a business, or the good thing about, I guess, designing your life, is that you choose who you are around, and then you won't have to feel like an imposter, you know what I mean?

Yes.

Yeah, that's why I don't— I love that question, because it's just like, you know, I feel like it's some term that someone came up to make other people feel better about themselves. That's what I think personally.

But anyway, I like it. I like it. Well, one of the other things you talked about a while ago was like staying in a J-O-B because of safety. And I think that what's important in terms of sort of my own personal life lessons that, I mean, there's a financial safety, sure, for sticking around in a business. But there's a mental health safety that I don't think enough people talk about. I literally, the last actual J-O-B corporate job that I had broke me so bad that I literally got up in the morning, got my kids to school, and then just sat on the couch. Like, I just couldn't move for 5 days. It was just— it broke me so bad. And I think there's a— we need to talk about this safety piece in terms of not just the safety for your money, but like the safety for your mental health too, right?

Yes. So a lot of the time, and this is why I created Cognifinery actually, a lot of the time when you're neurodivergent and you're trying to navigate the workplace, and sometimes you just have to navigate the workplace because you need to get a paycheck, you need to live your life day to day. And I'm very realistic when I look at things like that. I try not to be so woo-woo like some people. I try to be very realistic. I just think, um, Cognify.Me was grown from my own experience of not feeling psychologically safe at work.

Yes.

And I wanted to create a tool so that people who are neurodivergent can literally navigate the workplace without being in a sense of being like having performance reviews or being surveyed in the workplace. And literally they can just have this tool that's running in the background that can help them with their executive dysfunction, that can help them in terms of managing cognitive overload, managing the day-to-day work, knowing when to take breaks. knowing when to hyperfocus, knowing to get the best out of them without a manager over your neck telling you you should do this, this, and this. And this is literally what— this reason why I created Cognify Me is to create that sense of psychological safety and to make people feel they can thrive in the workplace, like, ordinarily. I know that entrepreneurship is not for everybody.

Yes.

And sometimes people need to be in a 9-to-5, or entrepreneurship could be for you, but in this season in your life, it's just not for you. You just need your 9 to 5 to get through it. And people don't talk about this enough. They either say you are entrepreneur or you're 9 to 5er, but you could be a mixture of both. And sometimes you have to sway between both because sometimes maybe you— this area of your business isn't working and you just need to start collecting money so that you can, you know, pay your bills. So, um, yeah, the reason why I created Codify Me is to give people that sense of psychological safety where I know if I've got this tool, I can do my job effectively, I can do it well. I know my boss is not going to put me into a room and say, why haven't you got this done, Angela? You know?

Yes.

I, I've got something helping me. And so I think it's so important for now, before, you know, CognifyMe fully launches, is for neurodivergent people to find workplaces that really accommodate their needs. And I know that's not always easy, but it's for you to kind of do that bit of research to find out if that workplace is neuroinclusive. I know a lot of in the UK, and I'm not sure how it works in Canada. In the UK, we have you know inclusive employers. They have like a little disability sign to say that we are inclusive. That is just done because they have to kind of adhere to the Equality Act 2010, which is the the legal band that protects people. who are disabled or have a disability. The Equality Act protects you for being female, pregnant, um, you know, if you're transgender, if you are, um, sexuality, religion, race. It's the band that is covered and governed by the UK, and every company has to do that. But in reality, right, not everyone follows that. And so it's for you to kind of call up that company and go, oh, you know, how is it like to work there? Little questions that you will find out if they're an inclusive employer and they'll make those accommodations. By, by law, every employer must make reasonable adjustments, you know, for an employee to do their job. And a reasonable adjustment could be if you're dyslexic, having assistive voice text to help you read, you know, long documentations. It could be an adaptable chair so that you can, you know, sit in your, in a workspace more comfortably. And, you know, lights that are not too bright, the ability to wear headphones if you get overwhelmed by noise. All of that stuff is what in the UK is deemed as like reasonable adjustments. But the thing is, not every employer is going to stick to doing it. And if they do stick to it, they will do things that will, you know, I guess— and I don't know how to say this, but they'll do things that will be systematically—

It's like they, they just, they satisfy the smallest amount they have to, but they don't want to go—

It's, it's, it's like a little, it's like a little jab. very systematically jab at you where they'll— maybe you'll have a conversation. An example of that, maybe you'll have a conversation with your manager and he will say to you, oh, I know you've not been very well, or I know that we've done these reasonable adjustments for you and that's in place for you. And you'll have that conversation, you'll think everything's fine. Then the next day you'll have, oh, why haven't you— why haven't you come to the office? Or something like that. So your reasonable adjustments was to reduce your hours going to the office, for example.

Um, yeah.

And the manager's like, why haven't you gone to the office this week? But we had a conversation that we were going to reduce my hours. Go, oh yeah, we did, didn't we? And then you're going back on that, and that is like a small little jab that is making you feel a little bit uncomfortable at work rather than them sticking to it. So it's not like they're not sticking to it, they are, but they're giving you a little jab to make you feel a little uncomfortable. So Even though that means the board—

Or in the middle of a meeting, maybe in the middle, maybe in the middle of a board meeting or something, they go, oh yeah, don't forget that because Angela's got this, we've got to make sure to give this to her. Like, yeah, yeah, exactly.

And then you'll be like, but I thought we had this discussion and it was private, you know.

Yeah.

And now you've made it a big thing, you know. So this is what I mean about you really need to understand the workplace you're going to and This is why I created CognifyMe, to give people that ability to do their job without surveillance, without stigma, and with them to get the opportunity to just thrive in the workplace. And I think ultimately most people just want to feel safe at work. They want to feel like they can go to their jobs and do their jobs well. Not everyone wants to do entrepreneurship. Me, I want to do entrepreneurship because I love the thrill of it. I like the, you know, the hyperfocus of me building something, and I've Put it together, and I've got people to to buy this idea that I've come up with. That's just my personality. But for some people, they may not be in the right state of mind to do that in that season, or they just might not want to do that at all. And that's that's absolutely fine as well. So I I honestly believe I feel like I've gone off a tangent. I honestly believe that if you're going to a workplace and you want that psychological safety. you really have to ensure that you, you find out more information and research the employer before you go and work there.

Um, and then what is that company culture, right? Like, so yeah, understanding what are the things that you, that you need to be supported on, but what are the things that you also thrive on? Like, what are the things that, that make things work best for you? So like, when I was working corporately, I was a younger woman who had young children, and one of the things that I loved about You know, if I was to look at my favorite place to work kind of thing, was that they knew that I was working my tail off. Like, I was like balls to the wall working really hard all day long. And then if I needed to take some time off, it was like, okay, whatever, go ahead and take the time off because maybe I had to take my kid to hockey or whatever. Those things happened. But they knew that I was getting my work done and I had the support of the company because that was the company culture, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so, I like what you're saying about understanding who you are, what are the things that you need, and then being able to do that research Into the company to see, is this right? And then the other thing is sometimes we pitfall. We get into this company where we think it's a good company. We think we've got the right culture. But then if you understand the difference between company culture and your needs, then when you get into the situation where you're like, oh, I am not safe, this is not cool, there's less blame on you. Like you're shoulding less on yourself because you can go, oh, it's the company culture just isn't right for me.

Yeah, and it's, it's that. And the thing is, a lot of the time, I think especially with neurodivergent people, we, we know, we know what's inside ourselves. We need to just trust our instincts and our gut that this place isn't right for us. But a lot of the time, especially if you're a masker, an ex-masker, you are trying to like push yourself to kind of fit the mode. And the reality is it's not for you. You don't have to do this to yourself. Like, if I could talk to my younger self and say, Sarah, you don't have to be like this, you can actually just find something that works for you, then I, I think I would have been a lot more happier in the right jobs for me. But again, that comes from a form of, I guess, a bit of scarcity mindset, that again, you don't think that you can get any— anything better, or if you are to get something better, it's just going to take you a long time, or it might not happen for you. So you just grab onto whatever is there. And I, I get that, I get that, I really understand. Um, if anyone's listening, just know where you are is not where you have to be forever if it's something you don't want to do. And I, I get the fact that people have to pay their bills, I get the fact that people have to, you know, attain to responsibilities potentially if they're working at a job, but it is truly possible to, to design the life that you want by a little bit of discipline which I would say, and to just realizing, realizing who you are and where you may belong. And it may take time to research. We're so lucky where we live at a time where there's a lot more tools that can enable you to live a much better existence and do a lot more. When I was younger, there wasn't the tools that we have today, and this is probably why I muddled a lot of my way around. the corporate world just trying to figure things out. But, um, we are a lot more luckier now that there are tools that can give you that ability to kind of navigate the workplace a lot better. At least, at least in the last 5, I would say 5 to 10 years, you know, things make it— there's AI now, so, you know, you can, you can use Copilot to record your meetings if you need to, and there's ChatGPT to help you with your emails. Um, I, I have no qualms about using ChatGPT. It's okay, you could use it if you need help, you know, putting your emails together. But that wasn't around, like, you know, right?

Yeah, no, I know. So yeah, yeah. If you were comparing documents, you know, 30 years ago, you'd have to have side-by-side documents in pieces of paper. Yes, definitely. Yeah, yeah, we've come a long way, baby.

Yeah, we definitely have, honestly. So I would say people that are neurodivergent now, they have it a lot easier than when you were neurodivergent. I would say even 10, 15 years ago, it was a lot more difficult.

Totally. Yeah, yeah, so very much so. It's interesting, right, to see not, not just the things that have changed, but to understand that we are moving towards the greater good. And yeah, there are still, you know, things happening in the world that are not so awesome. And, you know, DEI in the States, of course, they're struggling a lot down there. And I know that even in the UK, there's some issues, and Canada, in certain places, we've got issues. But ultimately, we are moving in the right direction. And for those of us who, who are in this DEI world, it's important that we keep speaking up, that we keep being present.

100%.

And it should be okay to say, hey, yeah, you know what, I have ADHD and OCPD, and to be open about it so that other people who are coming behind me or other people who are getting diagnosed after me, they're like, I'm not alone. I think that's the— I'm not alone is like the phrase that is so important for people to hear, no matter what you're struggling with.

Yeah, I, I honestly believe that when you talk about these things, like being autistic, like having ADHD, like whatever your neurotype is, or you might have a bunch of different ones because A lot of us have a mixed bag a lot of the time.

Me too.

It's important to talk about it because then it opens the door and someone out there may not feel so alone in it. Because honestly, when I had my diagnosis— because I was diagnosed twice in my life. So the first time I got diagnosed was in my 20s, and the second time I got diagnosed was in my 30s. In my 20s, I got diagnosed with ADD and dyslexia. Then I got re-diagnosed with ADHD inattentive about 3, 4 years ago. So it was like, um, for me it was like even though I knew I had these conditions, it was almost like I was trying to navigate the workplace and knowing who can I tell this. I couldn't tell anyone, do you know what I mean? It was just like I It didn't— for some people, when they find out that they're neurodivergent, they feel like, oh, relief. For me, it just made me feel really annoyed because it was like, I have this condition and I don't know what to do. I don't know if I should tell an employer I have this. I don't know if I should get help for it. What do I do with this information? Like, you've told me I've got this condition, what am I supposed to do?

Yeah.

So it kind of brought these feelings of I think I got a little bit angry in a way because it was like—

Fair.

In some ways, in some respect, maybe it would have been better if I didn't know because it's like, in some ways it's like I have this condition but there's nothing I can do with it. It's just this long form that says you are dyslexic and this is it and you have ADD and this is it and this is the information, there you go. And there was nothing I can do with that information. At least now.

And I think that the other piece that you brought up was important is, do I tell people? Um, there are some, there are some reasons we keep this to ourselves, some reasons why we won't get diagnosed. Um, I know that there's some professions where if you get diagnosed, there, it's going to impact your career. Uh, we still have those kinds of silly things, in air quotes, if you're listening to this. But you don't like— there's, there is still some stigma. There we go.

Yeah.

There's some stigma in some places where if you do say, hey, I have XYZ, especially corporately, there's some, there can be some stigmas, which again leads to corporate, you know, culture and those kinds of things. But there are reasons why people will continue to mask/hide and not even bother getting diagnosed just simply because of the career trajectories they're on. So there are, all of this comes into play, whether you choose to get diagnosed or you don't choose to, or who do I share it with when I do? Not everybody needs to be out. If you don't feel safe, if you don't feel like it's a good thing for you to be out, then that's fine. For me, it's safe to be out, so I just feel I need to be loud and proud so that I can support those, you know, anyone else who's like, I can't be.

Yeah, and that's the piece on psychological safety. I mean, for some people it's difficult because I don't want to be telling people they should mask, but sometimes you have to mask. So It— I think it's very important for you to assess the environment you're in, particularly if that environment is what you are highly relying on to pay your bills and look after your family. And if it's an environment that means, you know what, I cannot let people know that I have this condition please, please try to put a limit on that time frame that you're in there. I think it's very important that you do that. I know sometimes—

Or seek some psychological help. They'll help you to come up some coping mechanisms.

Yes.

So that you're not feeling so bad in the situation. Like, there are some— for example, like, I don't think that pilots in Canada are allowed to be diagnosed with, uh, autism. And, and I just think that's— I mean, first of all, I think it's stupid, but that's just that's just whatever. Um, so, but if you're really great at being a pilot, you love to be a pilot, you think you might have autism, you're never going to go get the diagnosis, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like, if you love your job, you love your work, and you're, you're successful at it, but you know that this diagnosis is going to cut your, your job short, you're never going to go get the diagnosis simply for that reason. You don't want it on your records. So for those reasons, you can still be, you can still love your job. But yeah, you're right. If you are masking and hiding and, and it's not good for you, then you've got to find Either a way out or a way through.

A way through, yeah.

Psychological help is good for that.

Yeah, so yeah, maybe finding a trusted therapist that can help you navigate that, that complexity of that environment that may stigmatize you for what it is you do, even despite the fact you're very good at it. And you could be doing it for years and very, very good at it, but because people hold that sense of No, you like you've got autism. It's too dangerous for you to do this job. You've got to learn. You've got to get the balance of protecting oneself from doing just the thing that you love and navigating the world in that way. And it's difficult. It's a very difficult, I guess, road to tread because naturally, as neurodivergent people and autistic, we want to be honest and open with who we are. But yeah, not everyone's going to accept you for who you are in that moment, and sadly that's how it is. And this is why I think it— you have to come to the decision. If you have to do something and you're having to mask, maybe question if that thing is for you.

Yes.

At the same time, it's difficult because if you love what you love, you love what you love and you want to do it. But if what you love is, is going to cause you to be something you, you're not, you've got to figure out, can I live with that? And can I navigate that? Am I okay with that decision, being someone else at work and being someone else at home? And if I can—

Yeah, yeah.

Do that, and I guess decompartmentalize the two, and you're okay with doing that, that's absolutely fine. And I think I think everyone has to navigate that journey of how they want to do things in life. Me personally, I've learned that I can't, I can't decompartmentalize things very well. I'm either one, one person here, here, and here. I can't be too many different people. There is a version of me at work, obviously, and there's a version of me when I meet people, but I'm literally Sarah. That's just who I am. And I'm not gonna try to deviate from something I'm not. I'm more or less the same there. It might be a small tweak in terms of I've got to be a bit more formal or how I present myself, but I'm literally the same person everywhere I go. So I can't—

otherwise you're just like, you're having to be a method actor. Okay, when I'm here, I'm this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I can't—

yeah, I can't pretend to be something I'm not. It's very difficult. So Some people can do that, but I, I just find it very difficult. I think I'm always the same person all the time, and I have to be in an environment that can serve me and I can— and people are comfortable about who I am. If I can't be in an environment that I'm having to be something I'm not, then I'm just going to be very miserable and there's no point. So, but we're all different. That's just me personally.

Right, yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's been fantastic getting to know you. I, I could talk to you for hours. We're actually having a good time. But tell everybody about your app and where to find you.

Oh yes, let me tell you about the app. So currently, if you're a small business owner, we're doing Cognify Me pods. I will send you the link, Angela. So if you're looking to get support for your employees, we're looking for people that have employees of between to 250 employees working for you that may need neurodivergent support, please contact me at hi@cognifyme.ai, or you can go to my website as well. Just send me a message and I'll send you a form to make sure that we are designing the pod for your organization or company. So that's basically where we are in the business. We're also fundraising as well to try and basically build more pilots and get a full version of the app ready for everyone to use and download. So yeah, so that's how you can find me.

So yeah. Awesome. And we're gonna put all that in the show notes so that everybody will have a quick and easy way to click and get to, to get to know you better. So thank you so much for being here. It's been awesome.

Thank you so much, Angela, for having me. I really enjoyed my time here.

Beautiful. Okay, have a great week. We'll talk to you next week. Thank you so much for listening to the Overgivers Anonymous podcast. Your support means the world to me. You can find show notes You can find the show notes for this episode and other goodies at overgiversanonymous.ca. And if you enjoyed this episode or you enjoy the podcast in general, why not join us in the Overgivers Anonymous Facebook group where you can connect with overgivers from all over the world? Head on over to geekygirl.ca/group.