Content in 2024: AI, Brand Storytelling, + Content Program Breakdowns (an AMA with Liz)

Do you live in a world filled with corporate data? Are you plagued by siloed departments? Are your lackluster growth strategies demolishing your chances for success? Are you held captive by the evil menace Lord Lack, lack of time, lack of strategy and lack of the most important and powerful tool in your superhero tool belt knowledge. Never fear, Hub Heroes. Get ready to don your cape and mask, move into action and become the hub hero your organization needs. Tune in each week to join the League of Extraordinary Inbound Heroes as we help you educate, empower, and execute Hub heroes. It's time to unite and activate your powers. Before we begin, we need to disclose that Devin is currently employed by HubSpot at the time of this episode. Recording. This podcast is in no way affiliated with or produced by HubSpot. And the thoughts and opinions expressed by Devin during the show are that of his own and in no way represent those of his employer.

Liz, me. Where were you on January 6th?

Yeah, that's how that interview is gonna go, baby.

In an all day leadership team meeting going, hey, guys, have you seen what's happening on cnn?

They were calling it. They were calling it an all day leadership meeting. Yeah, exactly. That's what it was.

That's where they.

Peaceful and. Peaceful and patriotic all day leadership meetings.

That's right.

Here they leave.

So hang on, you didn't even say the year, bro. So does she have a leadership meeting on that date every year?

That would be convenient, wouldn't it be?

Yeah, it would be.

Yeah. Sounds like an alibi to me.

Would be convenient, wouldn't it?

Seems like a possibility.

Anyway.

Well, Max, I know.

Can someone explain. Can someone explain the topic of the episode so that joke works?

Yeah, I was about to.

We should probably do that.

Yeah. And I'm sorry for the guys. I'll figure out my camera. But welcome to a very special episode that I have already immediately regret agreeing to. A couple weeks ago, one of our listeners said they would really like to hear an episode where the guys just ask me questions about content. Whatever they want. My thoughts so. Hi, I'm Liz Morehead, content therapist. AI poet. Ask me anything. George, I'm going to turn it over to you to be the master of ceremonies while I just kind of get emotionally uncomfortable here.

Yeah, yeah. Get ready to be in the therapy chair for this episode. So here's the thing. What I want all the listeners to know is Liz and I have been working with each other for the last two years. A lot of what you see on sidekick strategies, George B. Thomas. Like, it's. It's that content. It's human centric, it's on brand, it's like super powerful. Like, we just, it's been a pleasure being able to create valuable content to the world together. And so I'm actually super excited that another human. Another human.

Oh, yeah.

Can we dive into Liz's brain? As scary as it may be? I added that last part.

They didn't.

And so we, we get to ask you questions around content and all that good stuff. So I'll, I'll start, I'll throw one out because I definitely want to make sure that we hit upon this and if we do it first, we won't run out of time. Right. So, Liz, here's the thing. Where we're at now, we have AI tools that are rapidly advancing. And so how do you see the role of content creators, content strategists evolving in the next three, five years? And I guess I want to add on to this. Will it become more about managing AI outputs, or do you think the human element will remain central to effective content creation? What are your thoughts on that topic?

You know that this, that my answer to this question has to start with the fact that, like, full disclosure, I was dragged, kicking, screaming, complaining, asking if I was being punished. Going into. Yes, George is pointing at himself. He got me there. He got me there. I was at first I was definitely one of those like basement dwelling mouth breathers. Like, but my art, but my craft, this will. But then I started sitting with what my actual fear was. I wasn't concerned about my job ever being taken away. My concern was that AI, in the hands of the many would create, quite frankly, much of what we are seeing today. Right? What we're seeing today is an uncanny valley effect. And for those who aren't aware what uncanny valley is, it's essentially this scientific principle that the closer something that isn't human is tried to make look human. Like, for example, we love Disney characters, right? Disney characters, but we know they don't look real. They look like a cartoon. They feel safe, they feel whatever. But then we see robots that are meant to look like humans and they freak us out. We don't like it, we have an aversion to it, we do not trust it, right? We're starting to see that with content. And I'm sure you guys have heard the same thing. Like, I don't know what's wrong with this content, but I can tell it's AI. I can't put my finger on it. Don't trust it. Something, something's off. So the reason why I tell this story is because when I think about where content, like the role of the content strategist is evolving, the content creator, I think there is, I'll say it, some of the fear is substantiated. I think for some people who have been coasting without having developed meaningful brand voice, strategy storytelling skills where they're not where, where they're sitting here saying, what is this blog post going to be? Instead? Who is this for? What do they need from us? How are they going to show up? I think for those people, yeah, maybe you should find a different discipline or maybe those skills you need to hone because that is really what we're going to be looking at in terms of AI. I actually have people coming to me asking me for more advice than ever about content creation, about content strategy. The content audit, George, that you and I did this week.

Yep.

There are certain things where AI is going to extend and amplify the power of people who understand there is a human component of the art of content that will never be replaced. You can get close, you can have facsimiles, but you will always have something that feels off if you don't do that level of work. So this is why, you know, I've talked to, there are a few content managers who I've known through the years who will periodically just do coffee chats with me. We'll just hang out, talk shop, catch up. And I'm finding the skill sets that I am referring to people in terms of how they differentiate themselves. And I'm like, is it human storytelling? Understanding that empathy is not the only way you show up as a human being in content. This is something you and I have talked about, George. Empathy is something that is so important and overinflated in terms of its importance in terms of how we do content storytelling. But that, that's where I see this going. It is placed a greater premium on people who have those skills. And if you find someone like a George who will drag you kicking and screaming and help you understand, you're not being artist, you're being a masochist. Just being sad to your like, you will learn how to extend your superpowers by amplifying the smart parts of the process that take the most time so you can do more high value work.

So many of those words bring me great joy to hear you actually say that. And the fun part is, and this is not a sales pitch, but like being able to do that content audit and give it to the potential client and them have the I like. I don't see Chatgpt having a discovery meeting and delivering it in a human way that actually engages and interacts. So love. Love that you came kicking and screaming love where you're at with this right now. So, Chad, Max, your turn. Let's just.

Why are we so sure that the human element cannot be replaced by AI Liz?

It comes down to what fundamentally happens in a human interaction. So I'll tell you a hypothetical, not so hypothetical story. There was a girl I used to know in my 20s where, like, she was the best bitch to brunch with. No joke. Always a great story, always something really good going on. But I always had her go to a very specific restaurant because I knew if we went to this restaurant at a specific time On Sunday in D.C. she would get a window seat so I could see what kind of tornado of hell I was walking into, right? Am I walking up? Am I seeing she has her head in her hands and we've already got two empty mimosa glasses next to her. She hasn't dumped Kevin yet. He's still an asshole. We're still dealing with a lot of problems, right? Or is she happy, man?

No one's going to hit the beat button on this episode. Oh, my God.

Butthead. Kevin was a butt head. All names have been changed to protect the marginally innocent, right? Or she might be in a great mood, there might be something going on, but I always needed to have emotional and situational awareness walking up to that table because I had to understand, based on where she was, what she needed from me. Now, this is where it gets really interesting, right? I am still always Liz, all the time, inserting Godfather analogies where they do not belong, talking about Nicholas Cage to a degree that is deeply unhealthy. You know, like all of these different things. But that is my voice, that is my all the time personality. But my tone will switch depending on where I'm at, right? Like if she's. If she's upset and she's sad and she's head on the table, mimosis, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? I'm showing up there like, hey, baby girl, what would Nicholas Cage do? You know? What do he'd steal the Declaration of Independence. If she's in a great mood, it's like, so we're going to the National Archives. The Declaration of Independence is ours, right? But that is a very human experience to sit and assess and understand what a human being isn't telling you and then understanding what parts of your personality you need to bring out what stories that you need to tell in order to do that. You'll also just make wildly different editorial choices. So where does AI come into this? The thing I've noticed with AI and maybe at some point this will change, you know, I am. I am notorious for saying, I said this six months ago. I've learned something new. Here's what I've learned. This is what's changed.

Yeah.

But as it stands right now, there are always going to be editorial differences between. I will tell you what Persona they have. I will tell you what they're feeling and why. Right now, this is my resume. These are examples of my voice. These are the things that I do. We'll get really dang close to that AI facsimile meeting that emotional human need where they are. But if I were to ask George to do the same thing, he'd probably start with, you know, this reminds me of a very specific time in my life where I was, you know, log cabin in the. Whatever.

Oh, yeah, right. Tell the story. Come on.

You know, it. It's the. It's the. It's the log cabin. It's the. And rapping. There's a lot happening. So when I think about what it is that AI lacks, it gets really close, Max. But what if I put two things down in front of me where we've prompted the crap out of AI and George has done this, and he gets this from me every time. I'm like, george, sauce is missing. Something's missing. There's a story missing here. There is the. Let me get down on your level as a human being and relate to you. Right? But this is where I think people get it all wrong, Max. Like, why are we trying to fake that? That is the most important part of storytelling. That is the most important part. That is the high value work you should be doubling down on and let AI deal with the stuff of. Can you give me a good pros and cons Salesforce vs HubSpot in a chart? Like, can you list that stuff out for me? Can you expand this section? You should be doing the work of building the human connections because that's how you make the sale. That is how you get people. Like, when people sit in front of you in a sales conversation, that is when they are getting you. That is when they are getting that most authentic part of you. The goal of content isn't just to educate. It's also to create that human connection and experience before they get in front of you, earning the trust faster.

Now, Max, here's the thing. And then. And then we'll go, Chad, to your question. Here's the thing, max. In 30 years, when you've had a robot buddy for 10 years, and the robot buddy can go. You remember that day when we were gonna go meet Susie and you saw she had three mimosas, and you just KE walking by. Now all of a sudden, there's a historical context, a historical timeline to where what Liz says is maybe a little bit different. But I. I'm. I. Man, the amount of times that I've heard, where's the story? Where's the story? Like, where's the pain?

This could be written by anybody. Where's the story? Where are you? Why do you care about this? That's always the thing that comes up. The other thing I will say, too, to just kind of add a little bit on top of that is that I could also tell an AI prompt like, hey, I want to write an article called what is a content strategy? Here is a deeply detailed, like, experience of my time as a content manager, the time I was asked this question how it feels, but it also doesn't get my brand of weird. Like, it's only ever going to eat what it's already consumed. It may not bring new metaphors or weird, colorful language. It may not know that I want to describe what it felt like to be asked what a content strategy is and where is it. When I thought that was my editorial calendar and I wanted to sink into the floor and become one with the tile, and I could not do that.

Now, I will say. I will say this, though, because I passed out. Then came to when I was generating something and it actually used the word ain't in it. And I was like, wait, what? Hold up. Anyway, Chad, what's. What's your question for Liz?

Yeah, I mean, I had, you know, kind of like an idea of a question before, like an e syncling of a question before concept of a question, maybe a question of a question. My own questioning mind. And I was questioning it, actually.

Within the context.

Now I'm questioning it. Yeah. But anyway. But I kind of have, like, you know, I want to connect a couple dots here because, like, I think what George was talking about is really interesting. And then I want to ask Liz a question, right? Because, like, what Max asked is, do we think, you know, why are we so sure that this can't actually become a human thing? And then, like, we were talking about a discovery call. Like, oh, well, if you have an AI do a discovery call, is it going to connect humanly? Right? And there's like a couple pieces I want to bring in here too, just like for, for context. But like if you could program an AI model even with like a video avatar that could do a discovery call or something, right? Like a video gets better video. Like if people knew that it was an AI, even though a superhuman person programmed it and built this model that was bringing it in, do you think people would pay for that discovery call or you know, like that service, right? Whatever service that you're building, you're getting an AI to do some of the more grunt, worky type front end stuff, you know, on that business service. And I mean, you know, this could be for providing content strategy. You take the brain dump of your experiences. I mean like for me, like every waking moment of my professional life is recorded in Zoom, you know, and like you just dump all that stuff up and it just chunks on it with the old brain wallet for a while and a whole bunch of Nvidia GPU cluster and then spits out like you know, Chad, discovery call extraordinaire, right? Or something like that. Or like, right? Is that like a world that could happen and like do you think people would pay for that it? Or is that like something that would be just too, is it like too spooky for us right now? It's going to become commonplace in the future. I mean like, you know, nobody had computers, nobody had just information highway in their pocket every second of every day. Like nobody had the ability to, to connect to the Internet anywhere in the world because there's like 7,000 satellites just beaming interwebs down everywhere, right? Like this is all stuff that just like in such a short period of time because AI is increasing faster than double every seven years like Moore's law would state. I mean it's just bonkers how fast it's going, you know, what are your feelings or thoughts about? Or are we really. Again, to reiterate what Max is talking about with like additional context, like would people pay for that kind of a service if it could be built? Or like, is that something that we should even be considering, right? So it's a hard have.

No, but I have more open minded thoughts here than you might think. Like I'm not gonna sit here, be like, but we should hug all the humans all the time. And it's all great, right? Like the reality is, I mean, I like hugs. I do like hugs. Me too. But the reality is it's gonna matter on about context, right? So when I think about like some of the transactions I have right now, that may not be AI. Maybe they are, I don't know. I think about like the little chat bots that I talk to when I'm dealing with customer service. You know, I'm thinking about more transactional conversations. Right. I think it depends on as an organization. These are going to be organizational decisions that you're going to have to make. Right. When you think about the value of a discovery call, is it just transactional information that should be given? Right. And I don't, I don't think that's the case. I think there are some people who will do that. But the value of a discovery call is kind of like to size each other up. It's not just about. It is not just about, at least for me when I have both been in sales roles and when I have been talking to someone on a sales team, I'm not just looking for, I'm not just looking for an answer to a question. I'm trying to understand how you problem solve. I'm trying to understand who's the oz behind the curtain and is there a vibe fit there?

Sure.

Right. So I think it's going to depend, be heavily dependent on what your sales process is, what it is that you do and sell. Because if you're in B2C and it's product and it's a one time transaction, that may be something that's fine. But if we're talking about a discovery call, my guys, what is it actually that we're discovering? It sounds like what we're communicating is that we don't have enough time to talk to you unless you actually want to give us money. And I think that is a very hilarious stance to take, especially in a B2B space where everybody's a trusted partner, everybody's strategically on your side. Did you know our people are our greatest differentiator? Wow, Janice, I'd really love to know that if you could show me them. Right. Like, like that's the thing. This is, I think what we're going to see is the choices that organizations make with AI are going to communicate whether they like it or not, how much they actually value the partnerships, the relationship building. Again, you should be using AI at strategic parts of your process. What if you built a great AI tool on your website that had the answers to the most pressing questions of your customers that allowed them to get some of that firsthand knowledge in a self service way. But when they talk to sales, they are talking to a human being. Now again, I'm sure there will be creative ways in which we will see AI integrated into our lives. In fact, I'm sure we will find ways that AI will trick us into like. Oh my God. I didn't realize that wasn't a human. Yeah, congratulations. You just broke the trust of your customer.

So. So I know, Chad, you have a question you want to ask, but I have to dip into that if. If what Liz just said created some curiosity of like, Wait, what do you mean tricked that I'm a human or not a human in a world where that's actually a possibility. You should go listen to today's episode of Wake up with AI where we.

What day? It's because this will drop.

Oh, this is. This is 1018, the morning of 1018. Go listen to Wake Up AI where we talked about retinal scanners for humans versus bots.

Anyway, okay, nerd.

Chad, you have.

You have a question, brother Nerd.

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm just, you know, I was just saying, like, imagine a world like, this is where my brain went. Like, imagine a world where you have like, the ability to have a full beans. Like, here's a triage of everything that we offer as a B2B or a B2C space AI interaction. And it's a page on your site where when people are trying to learn about your business and they don't really want to commit to talking to somebody yet, but you have this super sick resource where they can interact with something almost like they're on a meeting, but it's all AI. That sucker spirit spits out some sort of a customer fit metric and then goes back into your CRM. And when they book a call, you already know a lot about that customer because of their interactions with your really helpful resource that tells them who you are and what you do. And honestly, it probably saves your team time, but the delivery mechanism is, I think, really awesome. Like that Liz was talking about, like, hey, we actually care about you because when you schedule a meeting with us, we're going to talk to you as a human. But like, we also have this super dope thing where you can tell we care about, like, giving our humans force multipliers to their day and allowing them to actually engage and, you know, be with you present. Like, I mean, man, it's funny at rbp, like, she talks about the human element. And at our company, roofing business partner, we have like a sales rep that like every time he's finally done and gets a guy like a salesperson, you know, across the finish line, like the. The roofing company that he sold, like the dude practically wants to marry him, you know, like, I mean, they just love him. He's like a van lifer. And he'll just talk to him for like five hours on the phone, you know, and just like, he's awesome. I won't name him, but he has been on tv. So there you go.

Okay, There you go. So I'm only. I'm going to throw down one more rule anyway. One rule as we move forward, because I don't want this to be the Liz AI Show.

Right? Right.

Any question that we ask moving forward can't have anything to do with AI, but everything to do with content.

I got one. All right, Liz, I've been saying this for a while and I want you to tell me if I'm crazy or not.

Yes.

So oftentimes when I'd be having conversation with customers, even back when I was like onboarding, right. There was all the. Back then it was like, get him to blog, get him to blog, get them to blog.

Right?

Because that was like the lowest barrier of entry, I think, to content creation back in the day. I still think to an extent maybe it is today too.

Right.

But I, you know, a lot of people would start to ask me about video and obviously as I started getting more into the. Creating video for. Hate saying the word B2B but, you know, tiktoking about HubSpot era of my life, you know, and people wouldn't ask me kind of, you know, how to get into it or why it's important. You know, the line that I would commonly refer back to is like, we're in the age of where people like to watch. Not ready. Right. And is that maybe just because I don't like reading or is there any merit to that statement? What do you think?

Yes and no. So this, this reminds me of the conversation Max that we had during an episode a long time ago about. Is blogging dead? And the thing that always frustrates me the most is that we have this very binary approach to how we think about content modalities. Right. And I think mostly because for a long time it was so one dimensional. It is a blog. There will be a CTA at the bottom. Congratulations. Inbound. Right? Like, that was it. And then as we started adding smack that ebook button.

Sorry, I had to say that.

Bam. Smash that like button. But as we started introducing more modalities and different types of content, right. Even different types of written content, people get very antsy and say, well, okay, clearly this is no longer working anymore and we're moving to this. And very rare. And we see this not just in the content space. This. Marketers do this all the time. Oh, so we're not doing this anymore. We're doing this now. It's. No, no, no, guys, this is a yes. And this is a both. And this is a because. So, Max, I think for a lot of people, the ability to democratize educational video education by visual learning has opened up a lot of abilities for people who just aren't voracious readers. Right? Yeah, but let me. But let me get to my point here. Hold on, Because I see you winding up. The thing, though, is that I see a lot of people. Like, there's still people like me, right? Like, I really enjoy video. I enjoy it a lot. But for things I'm really learning, I'm an insane person who has a printer right here, and I have to print it out and I have to highlight it. If there are things I really need to learn. Exactly. If there are things I really need to learn, I need to also have written stuff, because I don't always catch everything when I'm listening to it. I don't always understand things when I'm watching it. But when I have a chance to stop and stare and look at something to see the words, I just learn better. So what I think is we're seeing the support of a diversity of learning styles. But also, in some industries, you may just have greater visual learners. You may have people who are more academic, so they may be more heavily weighted there. This is where I think it comes to understanding your audience. I don't think you're wrong, Max, in saying what you said, because I think for a lot of people, that's true. Thank God there's video, because I'm not listening for George, let's use a completely different context. How many books have you read this year, George?

Oh, don't.

Because you listen to them.

Yeah, right. It's. It's a lot.

I read a lot of books.

Right. But here's the thing. I can't do audiobooks because I won't pay attention. I'll stop listening. I'll zone out. So, again, this is where I'm kind of getting to the, like, it's a yes. And Max. And I'm not trying to, like, backdoor my way out of an answer. I. This is what I truly believe. I wish content creators and businesses would stop saying what. This is now dead because we have a new thing like, no, Diversify or understand your audience and what their preferences are and wait at the picture.

So But I want to throw this in there real quick because I have learned something about myself. Not that this podcast is about me, but I have realized that if I can listen to it and see it at the same time, it's. It's double, if not triple, the impact.

Magic. Magic.

So to me, I'm like, I'm getting the point where I think I want to buy the audiobook and the physical book so I can listen to it and look at it while I'm listening to it, and then also mark up, like, the. The book highlight and all that. Because I've noticed when I use something like natural reader to, like, read a blog article, I actually don't just listen. I end up looking up and watching the words as it's like, highlighting it and talking to me. And I'm like, oh, wow, I. I really. I understand that better than if I just listen to it.

Anyway, super attention at that point.

Like how we're listening to that keyboard right now.

I'm just going to throw that out there. But I had to make a note.

Sorry about that, guys.

Yeah, no worries. No worries. So who wants. I have a question, but who wants to go next? I'll wait and then go after that.

That. You go. I mean, you haven't asked a question, I think, in a while.

So. Liz, actually, I have two I want to ask. I'll ask this one and if we can fit the next one, and then we'll get to it. Liz, I want to ask you what you have seen as the most common silent killers of content programs, and how do you identify and address them before it's too late?

This is why I put on my content therapist hat and hold up a content doll and say, where in the doll does it hurt? And then we go from there, because it really is going to depend on the organization. So, for example, I look at. I think of it like symptoms, right? Like, if somebody's telling me it feels like we're reinventing the wheel every time we're creating content. That means you don't have a documented process with platforms that support the process, with people who provide governance, oversight, execution, and accountability. Like that. That's what it says right there. Like, one of the biggest killers is you do not actually have content infrastructure. You know how to write a blog article. You have a content strategy. You maybe use Google Docs. Maybe you use. No, guys, it is a machine. Like, you should be putting in ideas and content spits out. You should have frameworks in place with an owner overseeing it who says, hey, guys, absolutely Would love to do that, but there's no room in our schedule for that. So if we're saying yes to this, what are we saying no to? When I was the editor in chief at Impact, I had a very regimented 90 day cycle that I ran for a couple years where I literally put. And these are Bob Ruffalo's three flex spots where he could just blow up my life and ask for three things every month. They don't roll over. You can't keep them like vacation days, but they're there. Right. So it's about. Do you actually have a system? It reminds me of the book Atomic Habits. Right. You know, you don't fall to the level of your habits. You fall to the level. Hi, Max. So I would say that's one of the number one. That's number the one content program killers. Another one is you're not actually committed to content. Like, this is a very basic one. But like I remember in the, in a conversation we recently had George with a client, you know, I said, hey, I'm actually not here to provide any judgment on what's happening. I asked very few questions going into this audit intentionally because I wanted to just go fresh and see what I would find. And the symptoms I'm finding here says to me there isn't really a content priority. So probably the reason why you're seeing some challenges here is like, you pro. Like I think I'm seeing a symptom of we haven't committed one way or the other and we feel guilty about not having made that decision.

Yeah.

And so often, like, it's just a lack of commitment. And I say that actually with no judgment. I'm not sitting here saying everybody should have a content program. No. One of the other clients that George and I work on together, and I'm there for content. We don't have a content strategy running for them currently. We're doing plenty of other stuff that is really geared toward their bottom line. We're doing tons of sales enablement things. We're doing a lot of website stuff. Like that's just not the priority right now. So I think sometimes what will happen is that you will have organizations who believe they should be doing content, so they start doing content, but they don't. They're not bought in. And it's not buy in. It's just like maybe it's actually not right for, for them. So they're kind of doing it 50% to see if it'll work. But if, again, if you don't put the systems in place with the owner and you actually commit to doing a strategy that is built around your business. Like, if you're not doing it and you're doing it 50%, it's always going to hurt. So just have a conversation internally. No one's going to judge you. Content Santa isn't going to put you on a naughty list. Like, just, you're either doing it or you're not doing it it. And the other thing I will say is that this is the greatest content sin. And George, I haven't even told you this one. Oh. I believe two things are true about great content.

I hope this is.

It is selfless. No, it is selfless education. And we need to stop pretending we're not in the business of persuasion. We have had so much blowback. I don't like sales. I don't want to talk to sales. I don't want to feel like I'm persuading. We're not here as, like, charity robots, guys, just, like, doling out education. Do we have conviction and firm beliefs about what it is that we are teaching and educating? About 100%. Do we have a very specific point of view that we are bringing out into the world and for the right people, this is right for them? Absolutely. The number one killer I see of content is we've stopped trying to make an argument. We stopped trying to have an opinion because we're so afraid that we're going to be seen as selling. Make an argument. Like, George, you and I have been talking about Aristotle's rhetoric and how I've been studying it.

Yeah.

It's the art of persuasion.

Yeah.

That is what rhetoric is. And it's ethos, logos and pathos.

I love it.

Logos is your facts. What it is that you're talking about. The way you're making the case. Your ethos is actually not your values. Yeah. It's not your values. It's not. This ethos actually is what. What is your authority to be reporting on these facts and pathos? Emotional appeal. Are you recognizing the human beings in front of you and are you showing up accordingly? And empathy is a small fraction of that. We have to stop pretending we're not in the business of persuasion, guys. What that's like. I remember when I stood on stage impact live at 2019, and I put on a giant screen behind me that says, I like content that makes money. And people started laughing and they got uncomfortable. I'm like, we need to stop pretending that we're here remaking them, aware of our brand so they'll Want to go to lunch with us? No, I like, we want their money. I like sandwiches and lunch. But like that's not what we're here for.

I don't know.

We're here to persuade.

Hugs and lunch on this podcast.

Maybe I just need a hug and I'm cranky and hungry. But yeah, those are my thoughts. Those are my thoughts.

That's good.

Anybody else have a question? Because if not, I got, I got one more. But I want you guys to like.

Have an opportunity here with content, that whole thing. Talking about the strategy, I just was like, so, you know, captured by that last little bit. I mean it, you know, because like I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm all on the technical side. Like I don't really do anything with websites. The, the, My content is like orchestrating a structure of a HubSpot portal for somebody to use so that they like to use it so they want to do their job. So it's a for multiplier for the business. Right. That's like my kind of content guy. Like I make the UI look good and work well and do the things repeatably. Right. That's like for me. But I, I was in, in that vein. I, I guess my question for Liz is like, does the out of the box HubSpot marketing hub, like calendar and tasking and all of that business cut the like does that actually get the job done or is it like, is that a big turd or what? You know, like what?

God, I really hope, I really hope no one from HubSpot is listening because.

Like, yeah, yeah, because you don't use it. Oh, oh. Because like I look at it, I'm gonna make you want an admin. But I don't know the things, so I don't know if like I'm like, oh yeah, this is where you do your tasking and here's where your posts are scheduled and here's where your content, you guys can work on it, you can mention each other, you know, or is that not going to cut it for them? Right?

Yeah. So here's my realistic and honest answer. And I say this as someone who.

Just don't get a suit.

I love HubSpot. And my answer is informed by two very distinct use cases. I have been a content leader inside for a, for an in house company. So I was at a HubSpot diamond partner agency that also had a massive media company side of the business and I exclusively ran our content that included five to 10 new articles a week, four different podcasts, videos and digital curriculum. Okay, so not small stuff. I have also been service side where I am using HubSpot to develop, build and execute content strategies. I will tell you I find most of it to be window dressing. I don't really find the SEO content strategy tool, for example, to be terribly helpful. Mostly because I think, for example, that tool in particular has a bit of an identity crisis. Is this here to help me track a campaign or is it here to help me build a strategy? And it's here to help me build a strategy. You're doing so with a lot of assumptions about, quite frankly, the strategic know how of the person clicking the buttons. Like it's not really built for that. I also find the content tracking in the campaigns tool to be much more effective. I have used it sometimes if I really want to track the growth of a topic cluster overall, but for the most part that's just like an extra step. Now also, here's where we have to get into the human side of the business, right? So I work for chuckleheads like George and I say chucklehead as a sign of endurance. I love you so much.

Holy no mackerel.

Where's the ding ding? I don't have my thing.

Do you want to know why I say chuckleheads?

That rhymes.

Because every content manager who rises up in the ranks is going to deal with type A executive folks who need to know answers. Now. They do not want to click in to 18 different tabs of HubSpot in a navigation that is constantly changing to understand where something is or what's happening. They are not interested in that if they are even inside the tool at all. So the way like you have to come up with a communication strategy with your leadership, with your executive team, and I guarantee you the moment you're making a C suite executive click on their own into somewhere in a HubSpot portal to figure out where something is. You've already kind of lost the battle. So often I'm going to be doing my project management where my C suite is going to be doing most of their work because I need to be able to do 80% of my communication with my C suite, with my leadership, whoever I'm reporting to as a content leader within my organization, where they don't have to proactively ask me where something is or what they need to click. It needs to be something native, quick, fast, immediate, boom.

All right, so here we go. Here. Here's what I'm gonna say.

My trouble.

No, you're not in trouble. And I don't disagree with anything you said, chad, let's get nerdy for a second. And specifically to what Liz said, C Suite, if doing it right, should be in HubSpot. Because HubSpot is the all in one place for their team sales marketing service. It should be the home base for their reporting. So they, they should be in there. Here's the thing. If somebody at HubSpot is listening, anybody in there?

Oh, that poor, poor Mike.

Yeah. If, if, if anybody is listening. If we were to take the projects tool and graduate it to what it could be and actually like there, there is a world where you could have like a ClickUp Asana teamworks inside of HubSpot.

Yeah.

We would just take the time to code projects to be what projects could be. But it's sat there for the last four or five years.

Yeah.

And not been changed or turned into anything. And so could the content strategy tools. Because by the way, Liz was talking about the topic cluster tool, the SEO recommendations. Because by the way, SEO recommendations are very valuable and useful for you as a HubSpot user and your website and making it good. But like, so imagine a world where it's topic cluster campaigns tool, SEO recommendations, and a project management system for content around. Especially now that you got podcasts in HubSpot.

Right.

So now you got podcasts, case studies, articles. Yo. We need a way to manage all of what you're building over here, so can somebody please catch up anyway?

Well, I mean, on the marketing calendar, you're supposed to be able to like add tasks and do a couple things. Right. But like, that seems like it's. Those tasks aren't connected to projects. Like I remember being at Inbound, I think it was like the HubSpot Academy timeline. Right. And it's like, oh yeah, in 2019 we released HubSpot projects and it's like a footnote in history because it's there. But like. Okay, great.

Yeah. The, the fact that you have sales tasks, marketing tasks and projects.

Yeah.

And they're not the same and they're not unified. Yeah.

Mm. Yeah, it's. I mean, that goes back, I think, to some HubSpot architecture. Like not every object is a first class citizen object. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think the other reality is, is that if we think about, and I'm thinking about the C suite folks who I have worked with in different organizations. Right. Like George getting you to use HubSpot in the way it's possibly intended with the projects tool. I don't see that as a problem for you, but that's because HubSpot is in your DNA. But if I think about businesses where HubSpot is not part of their daily workflow, that's where I tend to run into problems. Because the moment I have to ask a CEO to open up a different tool that they will never use except for this, they're going to get cranky. Usually what they want is a link that is public facing, that is a single source of truth that they could take a look at at 3am when they're wondering where something is. And I really don't want them texting me. You know what I mean? Like it's stuff like that. Or we had a client for a long time where like they are just more relationship focused people. He wanted to talk to me. He wanted to have conversations on the phone. So this is where I, I know, but this is where I would say content managers. This is the thing I always teach when I do. Content manager training is always the first module. You are a relationship manager first. That is what you are. If people see you when you're coming down the hallway, virtual or otherwise, and they start running and they don't want to work with you, your job is already done. Your Joel, your goal is to understand what people need from you. And, and I mean that in the needs that they're not telling you. You need to go out of your way to become fluent in the language style of their communication. Your job, yes, is to get them to see the value of the content of your creating. But like, don't be the food blogger who tells me 18,000 paragraphs about grandmother and the meatballs before you actually give me the meatball recipe. I don't care. Don't make people work that hard and then be upset when they don't get what they do. Like what you do. Like, that's just the reality. Your goal is to be a relationship manager. Oh, Max.

Max, what do you now, Max, we're moving into the questions that can be answered in one minute or less because we're quickly running out of time. But what's on your brain?

No, I'm just about to have like a. You guys mentioned the projects tool and I, you know how like there were some tools that were just hidden behind like the global search for a while I went in there to be like, oh, where's the. How do you even get to that project's tool anymore? Like, does it, does it still exist? And stumbled upon the knowledge base article about it and I didn't notice it until right this very moment that this projects tool, which arguably hasn't Been touched since I was onboarding customers with it.

Yep.

This glorified to do list on your iPhone sits right below the product updates tab in the main. Top right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yet we're stuffing playbooks in the library tab in the menu. Who made this decision?

Oh, God.

To put up another episode.

Oh, my God. Next episode, Max Cohen airing of grievances.

Right next to the HubSpot academy link. Somebody call 911 and they put playbooks in the godforsaken library tab. Oh, I remind me of Max am going to explode. I didn't even know that was sitting. I didn't know you could access this tool anymore yet. I got it. I'm going to shut up before I do.

You know who you remind me of right now? You remind for my. For my chronically online tiktokers out there. The guy who screams at people to wash their rice. That's who you were just now.

Okay, I am just. Sorry.

I'm. You need a minute?

I'm over. I'm overcome with rage.

I think I saw a vein about to blow.

Man.

Of all the decisions. Of all the decisions that were made about HubSpot's navigation this past.

Right. Yeah.

I'm just so glad.

Projects tool sitting in the main nav. I'm speechless.

Well, not really.

You're the opposite of speechless.

I just.

I don't know if you know what that word means, but 10 minutes later, I'm so confused.

Oh, it's.

Yeah, let's. Let's land the plane list. What's the one takeaway that you want to leave people around? Content. Before we get them back to their regularly scheduled day?

And a lot of tools and a lot of things can become distractions. They are very shiny bells and whistles. There are going to be lots of new ways to. To create content, to distribute content, to ideate, to do all of those different things. But at the end of the day, content is your way of creating a connection with the people, the humans. You are trying to help with, what it is that you do or sell better than anybody else. You either care about helping humans or you don't. And you can't fake that. And what's going to happen is that we are now finding greater ways to have more shortcuts put in front of us. The companies that actually give a thing about the humans that they are serving. Look, we can pers. Two things can be true. We can admit we're in the business of persuasion. We can also be people who are genuinely trying to help. Genuinely trying to be of service. And I think the distinctions between the companies that are actually that way and those who say they are that way, it's going to become much more abundantly clear. Content is all about the art and artistry of what you never see. It is the iceberg that is only strong because of the peace that is under the water. There is art to this. There are tools now that we have at our disposal to automate, refine and scale certain parts of our process. But you're still an artist. Don't forget it.

Okay, Hub Heroes, we've reached the end of another episode. Will Lord Lack continue to loom over the community, or will we be able to defeat him in the next episode of the Hub Heroes podcast? Make sure you tune in and and find out in the next episode, make sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest episodes and become part of the League of Heroes. FYI, if you're part of the League of Heroes, you'll get the show notes right in your inbox and they come with some hidden power up potential as well. Make sure you share this podcast with a friend, Leave a review if you like what you're listening to, and use the hashtag hashtag hubbyheroes podcast on any of the socials and let us know what strategy conversation you'd like to listen into next. Until next time, when we meet and combine our forces, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble human. And of course, always be looking for a way to be someone's hero.