Email Marketing and HubSpot Part II

Do you live in a world filled with corporate data? Are you plagued by siloed apartments? Are your lackluster growth strategies demolishing your chances for success? Are you held captive by the evil menace Lord Lack? Lack of time, lack of strategy, and lack of the most important and powerful tool in your superhero tool belt knowledge. Never fear, Hub heroes. Get ready to don your cape and mask into action and become the hub hero your organization needs. Tune in each week to join the League of Extraordinary Inbound Heroes as we help you educate, empower, and execute Hub heroes. It's time to unite and activate your powers. Before we begin, we need to disclose that both Devin and Max are currently employed by HubSpot at the time of this episode's recording. This podcast is in no way affiliated with or produced by HubSpot, and the thoughts and opinions expressed by Devin and Max during the show are that of their own and in no way represent those of their employer.

There is literally nothing that gets me more hyped than safe harbor, language and fine print. Am I right, guys? Quiet. Quiet.

I. I really wonder. I wonder how many people have that memorized and say it word for word the way it is right now in this moment in time.

I don't know.

Four of us.

But I'm going to say this once more with feeling.

Yeah.

Quiet. Fives. A. Tennis speaking. I have returned. I have returned. I left you alone for a week. Somehow managed not to set everything on fire, which I was very impressed.

It was close.

And you also actually managed to have a pretty solid episode, which was exciting and hurtful. I don't. I don't know how to kind of reconcile those two things.

I need to meet.

You managed to have a pretty solid.

Solid.

I mean, you guys are all right without me. If I do say so, you guys.

Didn'T totally it up. Good job. Thanks, Mom.

And I. I did notice that George was a very good student and said humans about 18 times, so. Good job, George.

Except he said it very cute.

Hey, I'm here for.

He said humans, and that was adorable.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was okay.

That was adorable.

I mean, you have to know your place. And so I have come to realize that in this galaxy, it's. For me, it's all about the humans.

He's now gonna make sure to do that in the intro every single time, so I can't yell at him about it. But, George, trust me, I will find something else to bug you about. Just you wait. I'll be out on the davenport in the veranda. But actually, no, all. All Kidding aside, here's what I'm gonna say. I really enjoyed the conversation last week to the point where, dare I say it, we need a part two. We need a part two. I have questions. Okay. Because we are back. That's right, ladies and gentlemen, anybody listening out there in our hub heroes universe, welcome to email marketing and HubSpot Part 2. Electric Boogaloo. This time it's personal.

I love that movie. Oh, my God.

Olivia Newton John and Sylvester Stallone. The buddy cop team I didn't know I needed. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Fantastic. Anyway, my fellow hub heroes last week laid out a fantastic story about how email has stood the test of time in our marketing toolbox. It has outlived Toby Maguire's Spider Man, Low Rise jeans, Janco Jeans, Beanie Babies, in sync, the entire Harry Potter movie saga.

The only thing that is still hanging.

On, if you can believe it. I had to look this up. And Hanson is still a band, so apparently.

Yeah.

So I don't know how I feel in saying this sentence. I don't know how I feel saying the sentence. But apparently email marketing, in Hanson, they've got the longevity, which is horrifying. Anyway, email shows no signs of slowing down. It's estimated that this year $11 billion in revenue will be generated through email. And I don't know about you guys, but that sounds deliciously tasty. And I want that. I want that me. So you guys dug into a lot of the strategy in the last episode, right? How folks can go epically right or horribly wrong when it comes to the strategy, the human strategy.

Yes.

If you didn't listen to it, cue it up for come to listen to right after this. But this week, we're now going to dig into everybody's favorite thing, which is the tools, the tactics, the technology. More specifically, how to make email magic using HubSpot. Gentlemen, are you ready? Are you ready? Okay. No one can hear.

Thumbs up and everything. And it's like the listeners are just. I guess they're not ready.

I know you guys are thriving in an audio only environment. I'm literally like, are you ready? And I was, I was expecting George to do his usual like, yes, put me in, coach. And meanwhile, you're all just like, yeah, that sounds good.

Yes.

On your marks, get set, go. As soon as he pulled out that.

Soundboard, I keep forgetting he has it. And it freaks me out every time.

I didn't, I didn't. Because when we. Right when we started recording, I said, this is gonna be a problem. And then he just smiled and it Was really uncomfortable with that out of the way. George, how about this? Put down the soundboard, pick up your brain, and I want you to answer this question for me. Yeah. What are even the most seasoned users of HubSpot missing about how dope the email tool is?

Oh, my gosh. Like, okay, so I think everybody first of all fundamentally gets in a hurry when they think about creating and crafting email. And so one of the things that I love to teach is a preview process that one should go through. And in that preview process, I talk about how you can actually look at personalization tokens that you've put in based on the contact. You can also preview the smart content that you have in your email based on that personalization. And those contacts that you can look at the email in an email service provider that you have an audience that you know is going to open it up in seven different ways. And. And so there's this whole preview process. I don't think everybody misses the preview process. I think a lot of people miss the preview process. But I have seen. To answer the question, the most seasoned HubSpot professionals actually create a list of internal employees and then send the test email to an actual list of employees instead of leveraging the send a test email button that lives right up by the actions and previews button. Because I preach, I'll preach it till the cows come home. The only thing you do when you do that is jack up your email analytics, because no employee is going to open a test email the way that an email should actually be opened by the people who give two rips about it. So if you're sitting here listening this or standing here listening to this, or you're on a boat or you're on a plane, or you're with a fox and you're eating green eggs and hams and you're listening to this, that was a little too far. Just make sure you don't do that anymore.

I love that you mentioned the preview tool because I'm always amazed by people who don't take the time to do that and or review process of any kind of. I don't care if you're sending the email via smoke signals internally. You never want to be the guy, gal, guinea pig, hamster who's sending out the email where you're excited for someone's compuper skills. If we all remember friends, right?

Like, I'm always amazed by people who.

Do not take the time to actually review the stuff they're sending out. Because, George, you're talking in some Ways at five dimensional chess level.

For some of the people I see.

Using the email tool, they don't even bother reviewing it in the first place. There is no QA process. And I'm like, before we could even tell you, these are the different ways.

In which you can preview it. Look at things.

The test email part I found really powerful because if you're just opening up.

The preview link, it's not going to tell you where something gets cut off.

We can hear you. But I'm still stuck on pooper. What? What did you say?

There was an episode of Friends back when you would go somewhere and type up a resume. And it was back when Rachel was learning how to get a job and she didn't realize that she had printed up a bunch of resumes that said she had really great pooper skills.

Ah, man. I went to like a pooper scooper for like the litter box or something. I was just trying to figure it all out.

I mean, I think that's where everybody who got her resume went to as well. That's kind of the problem. What about you, Max and Devin? What do you think? What do you think people are missing even if, like they're the most seasoned HubSpot pros when it comes to the email tool.

For me, it's the fact that email within HubSpot and ideally within your strategy is part of a larger thing. Yeah, like it's, it's not a standalone email tool and it's not meant to be used as a standalone email tool. There are so many features that are packed into every tier of HubSpot marketing. Whether you're free or starter, you're pro, enterprise, whatever, whatever one that you're using. The fact that you can have your email integrated into workflows and then have these automated workflows work off of things that happen with other things. Like if you see someone's interacting with your brand significantly or if they reach a significant level within the lead scoring, you can automatically send an email. I'll never forget when I was actually on the HubSpot website. This was back 2015 and I was, I was just drinking all the information in and occasionally I'm getting these emails saying whatever about whatever page that I was just on. Like it was. And it wasn't saying, hey, I saw you were on our website. You should definitely check this out. No, what it was is, it was.

I need an adult. I need an adult. What just happened?

Definitely get a restraining order.

See, I don't need buttons. I just do it. But the thing is Whoa, whoa, whoa.

I'm sorry. Did you just hip check George and Max under the shade bus? Ever so slightly?

I really did.

My deep baritone has been little bit.

I flex when I can flex. You know, I do what I can.

Yeah, he flexed. He flexed.

But the thing is, is that the. The email came off as timely and relevant, and I came away. Or I would have come away with it as, oh, yeah, I was just looking at that, and, oh, yeah, I was just thinking. But because I'm a marketer and I know how it works, I was like.

I like what you did there.

But, yeah, the fact that the email isn't just about sending newsletters or prospecting. You can do so much more with email within HubSpot.

Yeah, Devin, you just reminded me of something I want to hit upon. And, Liz, I know you wanted to go to Max, but I got to jump in here for a second because I think one of the things that we deal with is as email marketers, we're always thinking, like, out, out, out, out, out, out, out, out. Broadcast, broadcast, broadcast. And so sometimes I think it's hard to get into the user experience mindset. But Devin reminded me of this podcast that I actually subscribed to, and I'll never forget, I needed some time out of the office I neighborhood, and I got finished with an episode of the podcast, and I kid you not, it was like maybe one minute, maybe 45 seconds, but probably a minute afterwards of me finishing that podcast, and all of a sudden I heard ding. And there was an email in my inbox. And it was literally the resources that I would want to have at my fingertips based on the podcast I had just listened to. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, that, to me, was just an amazing user experience, a great way to use automation and email in hand in hand with a podcast kind of strategy.

I love that. And you're getting to something where I know we're going back to the strategy. And, George, just go ahead and say humans for me once, buddy. Thank you. I love that. I love that. I mean, it's clearly not at Devin's caliber, which he's already made sure we understood, but it's pretty solid, George. Good, good work. Well, then I'll just talk like this for the rest of the podcast. Okay, that's enough. That's. No. Okay, that was a mistake.

Sound like you're trying to kill Roger Rabbit.

Just like your brother.

I always love how smart we are.

Best podcast ever.

Recording on a Friday. Always recording on a Friday. Such a smart move. Such a Smart move. No, so the human piece of it and the reason why I wanted you to break out the humans is when people look at email generally and say like it's a broadcast channel. I'll tell you what I told one of my clients earlier this week. When you sit down to write an email, don't create content to broadcast, create content to connect. Imagine a person is sitting across from you and think about them as once more with feeling. George, A what human?

Yes.

See, but you're right. Like if you're treating your strategy and the tool like a broadcast channel, that's going to be amplified across the way you create the email, what emails you think you need to create, how you use the tool. Again, HubSpot is only ever going to be as smart as your strategy. All right, who else has thoughts on what? Even our most seasoned HubSpot people.

Yes, I'm the only one left are.

Missing with that tool.

I'll go. Yeah, so I think we kind of touched on this. But like thinking about it just past like a selling and a promotional tool, you know, there's so much you can do to support internal processes using that marketing email tool, right? Whether it's internal email notifications, you know, ones that are probably kind of way better than the, you know, boring boilerplate ones you have if you just turn on your, your HubSpot notifications in your settings. So like just thinking about how like you support the customer experience a little bit more versus just like shove content down their throat, right? The other kind of piece of it too, like using it with the rest of the tool. Right. And not thinking of email kind of in its own sort of little siloed piece of, of your experience as a HubSpot user. You gotta remember like pairing HubSpot with things like the campaigns tool can help you give a much better idea of how emails, the emails that are built to support all this extra content you're creating and making, whether it's landing pages, workflows, blog posts, things you're doing with social, like whatever it is, like you can see how well those emails are performing when they're supposed to be supporting these other assets that you're building, you know, and then when you start thinking about things like multi touch revenue attribution in the enterprise in marketing hub enterprise and even now today customer journey analytics. Right. So you know, you pair something like email with like custom behavioral events. If you're like a email marketer for a SaaS company and you're trying to get people to go out and actually like try A new feature. And if you have that feature talking back to HubSpot and saying, hey, this user did this thing and it fires off a custom behavioral event, well, now you, as an email marketer at that SaaS company, can send out an email to your user base, tell them to go try this new feature, and then figure out if they actually did it instead of just looking at your open and your close rate. Right. So thinking about how you're tactically weaving email in with everything else versus just emails that are just like, buy something from me. Have you seen this blog post? Here's your ebook. Like, there's a lot more you can do with it. Just break you. George, what happened?

George, do you need a minute?

No, I'm good. But just like, first of all, Max just, like, wrapped up. And then also he changed his voice to, like, this other person, and I was like, I didn't even use my sound board. Yeah, that's all the bad stuff. That's all the bad email stuff that he just listed.

Maybe it's that new, new TV fireplace you have going on behind you in your new dick's. Max, it's just giving you a whole new vibe.

Purple lights getting y' all stout over here?

Yes. Well, let's. Agnes, what are. What are the anases.

No, I'm just kidding.

So what are some of the most common mistakes you see people make with the tool? So again, we talk now about the things that people that are missing in the tool, but what are the mistakes that people are making? For example, George, I just us know I am ready for you to spit a little bit of fire about people who are still using templates.

Well, yeah, I mean, there's. There's that the. The amount of HubSpot Hubs that I go into and they have not used drag and drop email. And it's like over what, a year and a half, two years old. And they're, you know, it's something that they bought from the marketplace or it's something that they, you know, paid a developer to develop. And it probably still doesn't work in Outlook the way that it should. Should. But everybody's kind of hanging on and doing the best they can. Like drag and drop email over templates in that email tool is by far the way that I try to get people to go in, show them how easy it is to build their own templates, multiple templates off of a single email by just dragging and dropping some stuff around. Not to mention, not to mention templates don't have saved sections. And the Fact that in the drag and drop email tool, you can have saved sections that go across all of your future emails. So if you want an image, left, copy right, copyright image left, two buttons into, you know, two columns, whatever. Like, you can literally build the. The brick blocks or Legos or however old you are if you know what brick blocks are, by the way, email me george georgeb thomas.com I'm super curious if you even know, like Roblox pre Lego. Anyway, it's pre Lego. Pre Lego.

Is it the davenport of Legos?

It's, it's. God, I'm old. Okay. But anyway, save sections. Like, you should definitely be paying attention to that and your drag and drop. And, and if you're listening this and you're on tem templates in your email tool, try something new.

Classic template editor, right? Is that what you're referring to?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's still a tab by the. I'm waiting for the day when that can just go away, but it's still a tab. People that love them and if they've not done anything with the drag and drop, it's what opens first. And when I see it open first, Max, I literally am like, oh, no.

The drag and drop email editor is like really impressive from, from the times that I.

What's impressive about it?

It's just like you have so much control, but it's like really only the amount of control that you need. Right? Like, it doesn't really let you go overboard because the last thing you want to do in a marketing email is go overboard. Right? I mean, I feel like that's one of the best ways to get to a spam filter is like over design something and have so many lines of code in it and it just be so crazy. You know what I mean? But like, for everything that an email needs to be, I feel like it lets you get there really, really easily.

I like that you brought design, but even past design, we as humans. And that was normal, by the way. That was.

It was still hot.

It was hot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Devin, don't try to. Don't try to k.

We know what you did.

We know what you did. Listen, listen, Linda. We as humans, we make mistakes. We make mistakes. I know. I didn't mean to hurt you. I didn't really mean you, Liz. I'm just.

Linda.

Check the Internet. I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Listen, is it some other content strategist? Are you.

No, I don't know what Linda does. Linda, listen. Yeah, so I digress. But here's the thing. We as humans, this is the best podcast episode ever. We as humans, we. We as humans make mistakes. And so the fact that in the drag and drop email tool, you can convert a regular email to an automated or an automated to a regular. Like if you started to build that email and all of a sudden you, Somebody above you decided, oh, you know what? I don't want to do it as a one off. I want to make it a sequence. Back in the good old days, you had to like restart completely over. Now you just flip it over to the thing that you want to roll with and go. That is thinking about the end user. That, ladies and gentlemen, is magical.

What's a synonym for end user? George.

Human.

Thank you. Look at him. There he goes. Look at him fly. Max, you look like you're ready to drop some knowledge.

Well, I mean, I just, you know, I'm just still, I'm just still loving the drag and drop editor. Like, the really cool thing is like, when you think about, it's an email platform built on top of your CRM too, as well, right? So things like products from your product library can just be dropped right in. Videos that you have sitting inside your content management system can be dropped right in. Right. Just the button builder, like how it automatically takes care while you're like, yeah, meeting links. I mean, there's, it's, it's just. I don't know, I just think it's really cool and how much control you get over, like the sections and moving things around and like all that kind of stuff. I just, I like it a lot.

Well, here's the thing about HubSpot and George. You were the one who taught me this, so I'm gonna for once give you credits.

Oh, wow.

This one time, my gosh. You know, when George, George was the one who showed me, like, HubSpot, at the end of the day is.

Is just a CRM.

And I think where people get caught up is the quote, unquote, just of the CRM. But what, that's actually what makes it so freaking sexy. A parking ticket that has fine written all over it. Because when people look at HubSpot, they're like, oh, it's a blog tool. Oh, it's an email tool. Oh, it's to this.

I'm like, no. Imagine you can take the database, the CRM of every single human, you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt that your organization is built to serve and support and elevate and do all of those amazing things.

Email is just a tool in that tool belt to.

To bring your sales CRM to life. And that is what makes HubSpot, at the end of the day, so much.

Better than a lot of the competitors out there.

Because the other ones actually think, well.

We'Re just a CRM, but look at.

This great wiki we can make. No, instead, HubSpot says, Look at all the humans in front of you. These are the people you're trying to serve. Across every single hub, you will get a set of targeted tools that will enable you to serve them at. Across different areas of the flywheel. Look, Max, I'm saying flywheel, but. And email. Email is just one of those things. No, I also am on Team George too, so don't worry. But, like, that's what gets me excited about it. There's no such thing as just a CRM. And HubSpot.

The other ones, sure, I, I love all of what you said. I feel like I went to a little bit of like, HubSpot Church for a second. But there's two words. There's two words that you said there that are. I just want people to understand how important they are when you attach them to the term CRM, and that is. Liz, you said surface and support. When you come from those mindsets, whether you're creating email communication, feedback survey, a form for starting a conversation, AKA conversion, you come from a different place when you're there to serve and support.

Can I get an amen?

Amen.

Amen. Amen.

I love that. Speaking of amen, George, can you also make sure it's a little postscript to this section. Tell me that thing about sending domains again, that people tend to screw up a little bit just sometimes, which may get in the way of their ability to serve and support.

Oh, God. For all this.

Yeah.

So, like, you know how people just never read the manual? Like, you get it?

Yeah.

You mean like you don't like directions.

You get a new. Well, hey, now, slow your roll. You get a new. You get a new clock or a watch or Ikea, I don't know, a workout, something. And. And it literally has a pamphlet. It says this is. Is how you use it. And it's like you just kind of throw it to the side. There's a project in HubSpot that is like a marketing setup project in the projects tool. It is literally like the things that you need to do before you think about taking this Ferrari of a CRM out for a test drive. And sometimes I've just seen that people, like, off to the side goes the Little thing that you're supposed to, like, figure out before you go. Because they've been using HubSpot for three months, six months, wants two years. Plus some of the people that I'm talking about here, and I'll go to their settings, I'll go to domains and URLs, and I'll go to email sending domain, and it will be empty. Meaning for the last three months, six months or two years plus, they've been sending emails and there's been a nice little thing in people's email saying, via.

HubSpot, not if I set your portal.

Up, which is great branding. Which is great branding.

Not if you did onboarding with me. That was the first thing. That was the first thing everybody had to do when I was setting you up. All right, bro.

That I. Same, same, right. For two years, when I did HubSpot onboardings for HubSpot through Impulse Creative, we didn't step foot out of anything else that we were talking about until those setup tasks were done because it's, it's important. But again, if you're listening to this, go settings, go domain and URLs, go to email sending domain, and if it's blank or if it doesn't have a green dot, if there's a gray dot, chew all your fingernails off, start to sweat, and figure out how to fix your DNS.

Best part is that it takes eight seconds to do this.

Is it timed at eight?

Literally, you go in, you type in your domain, it says, okay, copy this thing over to GoDaddy. You copy it, you paste it into your. What is it? You're. You're. You're making a son an MX record. Is it.

Oh, God.

It's like two C names. Yeah, two C names or something in your DNS.

Yeah, C names.

It's literally so simple. Simple. It walks you through it. It's not hard.

Devin, can you just say something that unbreaks my brain? Because you and I just both witnessed what the. That was. Just, just, just, just fix my brain.

Sure.

Tell me something else that people are messing up with this tool. No, Max, you're done. We're good. You couldn't.

I want to give the easy way before, just for anyone listening, not knowing what you're doing, you're essentially giving HubSpot permission to email on your domain's behalf. That's all it is. It's setting emails that look like it's coming from your domain and you're saying, yes, HubSpot, that's okay, go ahead and do it. And Then it can do it. That's essentially all it is. Anyway. Sorry, Devin, go ahead.

Or.

Or you're broadcasting to your 50,000 people in your CRM via HubSpot.

If they even see it, it'll end up in their promo folder. Devin, save me, please.

Sure, in a second. I just need to jump on this train too. It's the ultimate in rookie moves, not fixing your domain. It is. It is it 100. I will judge you. 100. Absolute amateur hour. If that's what you're doing. Fix that. If your says from such and such via and then super long address, that doesn't make any sense. It's because you messed up.

So wait, guys, do you hear that? Do you hear the sound of everybody pausing, going, oh, no. Oh, snap. And they're like hitting pause. And they're like, what was my last email?

Yeah, I.

For those of you have rejoined us, we see you and you should feel ashamed, but fix it and it'll be all right.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Okay. So my contribution is people who send multiple content, multiple emails, instead of just using smart content.

Yeah.

You don't have to physically segment it as if you're sending letters to people. What you can just do is create the one email that has content that's relevant to specific people, and then you create lists of those specific relevant people. And then you send to those lists, but you make sure that your content only shows up for the people who it's supposed to. So you can literally have a red team and a blue team send one email. And blue only sees blue information. Red only sees red information. That's the simplest way I can put it. Sending out multiple emails is going to kill your email health. It's going to skewer, skew your numbers, and it's going to waste your freaking time. Stop it. You can just do it all in one place and just send it out.

And only because you got a CRM behind it. Right. That's another one of the beauties of your email tool and your CRM tool being the same thing. Are we on mistakes right now?

And now I want to.

Were we talking about mistakes?

I don't know. But here's the thing. I. I want to double down on what Devin was just talking about. Imagine what Devin said about the blue team and the red team. And now expand that out to your monthly newsletter where somebody could have picked out of 10 areas of interest, six of them. And now they only see the six things that they're actually interested in. Instead of your long newsletter with a bunch of sections they give no craps about. Like, it is automagical, ladies and gentlemen, what you can do with what Devin was explaining.

And the other side of that is, from your co worker standpoint, they're gonna hate you if they have to go back and find an email. If you have 10 sends for every email you send out, you're gonna have a bad time. The only time I ever recommend splitting it up is when we're talking about localization. And it just makes sense to have whoever's working in that particular language or that particular region to be the one that owns the translation and the sending of the email. Outside of that, there are. You can find yourself within hundreds and hundreds of emails and it's bad data all over again. Except this time it's not your contacts. Now it's your emails.

Oh.

Oh, you just reminded me of something. I didn't put it in our notes. No, no, I didn't put in my notes. But Devon, you just reminded me. And it's probably back in, like, what are the most seasoned professionals getting wrong? If I say this and you're like, wait, there's what then? It's one of the things that one of the seasonal. Whatever. One of the professionals get wrong. The fact that you actually can go to an email that you already sent and click on send to more, that you don't have to clone it, and then send a whole new email like that. Send two more so that all of your analytics stay in one place for one email instead of having like seven emails over time with the same dang information. And now your analytics are like, everywhere.

Yep, I got another one here. Hold on. Just. And I just need to say this. And I kind of said it in the last episode. We're going to say it again. If you spend any time whatsoever getting mad about your previews in any version of Outlook because the margin of the padding is getting messed up, do literally anything better with your life than, like, spend any more time at all on it. Just listen. Everyone's getting used to emails that look weird in Outlook. It is not worth your time because no one's even going to notice it and no one's even going to care about it. The words are still going to be there. All right? You're not going to lose a sale because your margins were messed up in Outlook's email client shill.

So weird that.

Max, are you okay? Do you need a hug?

No. But there are a lot of people out there that will spend 14 hours trying to fix that when no one's going to look at the email for more than 14 seconds. Not worth your time. Not worth your time. Do something better. Go pet your dog. Don't do that. Yeah.

Yeah. They just got some nap time back, thanks to our boy Max.

Well, I want to say this also. I'm also. You guys, I need you to pep.

It up a little bit.

We're real low energy today. I need you to like starting, so.

We'Ll do what we can.

Also, I have to go back to something that Devin said before we continue on. It's George's favorite phrase that I say that makes him grab the pen where he's like, I gotta tell Noah to cut this out. 7. You said something that always makes me think of south park, and I have to say this out loud. You're gonna have a bad time. Gonna have a pizza, French fries. Pizza, French fries. See, George, you don't have to cut it out. It's about skiing. It's only about skiing.

It's. It's all good.

Are you sure?

Because I'm watching you have a heart attack in real time.

I'm okay. I'm okay.

You're okay. How about this? Do you want to lobby a little easy one to bring you back down to earth?

Yeah, that's fine. That'd be good.

Okay.

I love the idea of email being used to serve and support the humans. Love that. But we can't make assumptions that the emails that we're creating, even with the best of intent, are actually doing their job. So what are some of the most effective ways you can measure the success, the meh, or the failure of the emails that you're creating in HubSpot?

Oh, that is interesting. And I don't know if it's much as a. A law because it actually could get pretty in depth, but I do like this conversation. You know, first of all, just realizing that you can look at your email analytics as a whole. A lot of marketers I've seen historically go into one individual email at a time because that's what's on their mind, because that's what they just did. But going to that analyze tab and looking at the last three months, six months, 12 months of what you've been doing, and in that screen, there's a scatter plot that is my favorite. It's like what you've done really bad. What you've done really right. And when I teach that part of the tool, I'm like, these are things to pay attention, to do over and over again, and things to never say were a good idea. And, and really it, because it comes down to what are you gonna, what actions are you gonna take based off the data that you can see? Now let me swing back into an individual email to see if you're doing it right or not. Again, we always have to be challenging our assumptions. And so my. One of my favorite things on the end. Well, I have two. But one of my favorite things on the individual email is actually the click map app where I can see do. Does the audience I serve like to Click on anchor URLs or do they click on buttons? And the fact is, are you not having both in your email to see if they click on one or the other more times than not? Because maybe you should be testing that out. But seeing what they're clicking on is amazing to me. And then I'm a big advocate of paying attention to over time, what email clients people are actually using to open my emails so that I can modify my preview of the email service provider and instead of just thinking that HubSpot knows everything and the eight that they give me by default is what I should actually be paying attention to. No, you might have a large audience of people who use Lotus 7.9 still and you're not even looking to see if it works in that email service provider.

Come on, it's probably all Apple mail. Hey, speaking of Apple, I think we can. Is it, is it, is it time to stop paying attention to open rates? Yes. Okay, that's what I thought. I mean it's, it's click through obviously to me, I don't know. Yes, but like here's the thing. If Apple's opening every single friggin email, why are we even looking at it anymore when it's like by far the most popular client, isn't it? Or is Gmail on the browser? I'm not sure. I mean I feel like everyone's got Apple Mail on their phone, right? Or Apple Mail on their computer.

Yeah, don't even bring up Bimmy.

Bimmy.

Don't even. Bimmy.

I don't know.

Yeah, Bimmy and Apple and all the things that are happening around email. But, but I, I like that Devin fought back.

All right, Fight me.

I'm fighting back too.

Let's be very clear here because hold on a second. Okay, I understand that the, let's, let's be clear. First of all, that number has been suspect for a very long time. That is not brand new.

Yeah, but hasn't it gotten like ridiculously more suspect lately?

Max.

Max.

Yes?

Would you like to hear my response? Or do you want to sit there under your fire?

I'm burning. Hit me with it.

I love you so much, Devin.

I've never seen you make that face before. I wish other people could have seen it.

Oh, they can at some point. Trust me. But we'll talk about that later, okay?

No.

Okay.

Anyway, here's what I will say.

I don't look at it and say it is absolutely 100% like 26.7 open rate. But what I will say is, like, if I know that it's capturing approximately the same amount every time, whatever that number happens to be, if it starts contracting and getting big and contracting and.

Getting big, I'm still able to spot trends. Even if I don't know definitively what that number is. I can still see whether or not that number is going up and down. I do agree that people take a lot like look, if you're looking at your open rate or your click through rate or anything for that matter, because the privacy rules are wreaking havoc on your ability to trust the numbers. Some numbers are still getting reported and it still can give you some trend data, even if it's soft, even if it's more stuff that you have to extrapolate from. But this idea that suddenly every number has absolutely no meeting, I don't buy that, don't trust that it's absolutely 26.7%. Yeah, like that's absolutely insane. And if you've been doing that at all, guys, that changed in like 2015.

This is not brand new.

That would be my argument.

So, so I, I agree with you on trends now, Max. I do want to double down here though, because there is a place where this fundamentally falls apart with HubSpot. And what I mean by that is back in the good old days, I used to love to talk to sales reps about how they could watch this little widget that would fly out on the right hand side of their monitor and say, Billy just opened your email and it was a, it was glorious. I would talk about, wait 10 minutes, then reach out and say, hey, you just happen to be on my mind. I wondered if you had any questions and be real human about it. And now I tell people when that thing slides out, ignore that crap like the plague and wait to see if they reply to your email as a sales rep, then go have the conversation that they actually want to have with you because there it just fundamentally is broken. And yes, a lot more now with what is Apple is doing. And there's this thing called Bimmy that's out there that you need to Google if you don't know about it, where open rates are getting real, real dicey. And especially when we're trying to do, like, any type of automated CRM sales stuff off of it, like, you got to be careful.

I just think, like, to me it's a lot more interesting to say, like, okay, cool, we're looking at click rate in an email. Because if I can get someone to like, actually open up one of my emails and then actually click it, I did something really correct, right? Because, like, they saw what they needed to see and then they made a conscious decision to stop doing what they're doing and actually go check this thing out. And sure, like, that's a good metric. But I think what's even more interesting is going and actually taking a look at like, the bounce rates of those pages. Because if they go and take a look at those pages and they immediately come off of them, that means there is a huge disconnect about what you're promising in that email versus what's actually showing up when you get them there. And you're measuring kind of how, like, deceptive you may unintentionally or intentionally be being there. It's kind of the same way where. Same thing, like when you're looking at, like, how you run ads. If you're running an ad that's saying, like, click here to learn more. Then they go to a landing page, it says, request a quote. And they go, well, that's not what I expected. I think kind of like testing that sort of transfer on how, how much is what they're actually seeing when they clicking, lining up with what you were promising and was that actually valuable to them? And did they actually spend any time there? Did it get them to convert? That like, looking at the kind of connection of all that to me is always, I think, just so much more valuable than, like, did my subject line get them to open up the email? I mean, like, I'm the person who opens up all the emails to get them to be unread. That doesn't tell you anything, you know, so I don't know, skeptical.

So I'd like to jump in here with my little, you know, pushback. My thing, open rates are a metric. They are even a performance indicator. I would not make open rates a key performance indicator if I were asking for a report. My thing is always about interaction and engagement. The thing is with open rates in HubSpot, there is a little nifty thing in HubSpot where you can just scroll down and see time spent viewing email. And that will give you a lot of insight into how the emails are being utilized. But open rate, and the thing is, I want to preface this by saying it's as a channel manager, as an email marketer, it's really easy to get locked into your individual metrics and just kind of lose the forest for the trees. The thing that you want to focus on, you want to take a step back and look at whether or not your emails are generating desired outcomes. Open rate is not enough of a desired outcome unless it's a transactional email about a service update or something. What you should be doing is focusing on engagement beyond just opening the email. Are people clicking in your email. If you have a hilariously low click through rate, then chances are that your content is not that compelling. Subject line. You know, fantastic. Good job.

Yay.

But the thing is, is that you haven't done your job as an email marketer. Your job is to get that person to take the action that you're calling them to or to keep them informed and, and full transparency. I'm not a huge newsletter person. I don't like getting updates. I don't read them. I don't care. I mean, I'm sure you're a wonderful person. I'm just not going to read.

Devin, Devin, you betray me.

With the exception of the Hustle, the single greatest newsletter I've ever read, I.

Absolutely is that big sprocket talking. Is that big sprocket talking.

Sounds like it would be, but they appeal to me on so many different levels. But both the content, but also as a marketer. You can see what they're doing as marketers and how they're incorporating like the video and everything. It's just dope. But back to open rates. Open rates are one small metric in a much, much larger picture.

There is literally steam coming out of Liz's ears right now.

I'm just gonna say being told that I understand.

Liz, you're wonderful, but you'll never be dope like the Hustle. That's fine, Devin. I won't remember this forever. It's fine.

I'm fine.

You're dope to somebody, Liz. Somebody.

But not for not to.

You are just not, not not newsletters. Just. I don't.

Oh, I love you to death.

I'm not, I'm not gonna read the newsletter, Liz.

Yeah, more shots fired. And on that note, well, Liz, to be fair, how do we know that you're not here shilling for big newsletter? You're a spy.

I don't know, but let me just grab my skim mug.

Oh, man. Oh, my gosh.

You know, as much as this chaotic energy has just really, you know, made my day, it's not like I haven't had my heart broken now just with a hammer. Thank you, Devin. Just kidding, right? If. If people walk away from this I episode, only remembering one thing about executing email in HubSpot. Other than the fact that Devin is meanie, what should it be and why? Devin, you will go last. George.

Yeah, mine's real simple. Take your time. That's it. Take your time. Quit being in a hurry. Design it right, Write it right. Think of the user experience. Preview. Test, test, test, test some more. Test. Take your time. Send.

I'm gonna say yes. Take your time. But don't spend. I'm sorry, you say, yeah, take your time. Yeah, but don't spend too much time.

Analysis.

It's not your turn yet.

Margin. Margin. And padding paralysis. That's chill. It's all gonna be okay.

Okay.

Gonna be okay.

All right. I'm going to break my own rule. Instead of one thing, I'm going to say two. Thanks. One, don't forget the humans. Don't. I don't care how great a tool is. If you're not thinking about the humans you're serving first, you're gonna have a bad time. Number two, when it comes to measuring the success of your emails, don't go in blind trying to let HubSpot tell you whether or not it was successful or not. Maybe go into creating each email with, I don't know, let's say, a.

A goal.

So that way by the time you're getting to the reporting, you know what you're looking for.

Devin, now you may speak.

Thank you, Liz. I feel warm and special inside.

You're very welcome. So you don't. Don't do that.

The thing is to remember with email, and I've said it like a couple times already, email is part of your larger marketing strategy. Your marketing strategy should not be email marketing and statement. That's. That's. That's not a good strategy. I mean, I. In this day and age, I can't think of a business model where sending emails alone works. I mean, unless it's extreme word of mouth or you're extremely famous. Like, if Ryan Reynolds sent me a personalized email right now, I would read it. I would read the heck out of it.

I would open.

Oh, okay. So it's hustle and. And Ryan Reynolds.

Got it.

Okay.

Anything. Like, literally anything I've been A fan of his since Van Wilder. Like in. In a. I liked Green Lantern. That's how much of a fan I am.

Yeah.

Of Ryan Reynolds.

So anything he sent me, but send nudes.

If you get an animated green suit, that. That might bring you up to Ryan Reynolds. Closer.

Plus one, plus one, upvote, upvote.

I'm not enough. That's all I'm hearing. I'm not enough.

You are enough, Liz. We love you, but you're enough newsletters.

Yes, we love you. You is smart. You is kind.

But I'm not important. And on that note, you're so important. I'm not gonna even just not. I'm not gonna pretend to be happy right now. You know what? I'm not gonna give you all an AI generated haiku this week. I just want you to leave.

Wait, hold on.

You.

You. No, I've been. For a week. I've been waiting for the two weeks, Liz. I've been waiting for this.

I. I know. Go ahead.

Yeah. Cuz God knows I didn't do no AI generated haiku last week.

That's all right.

Hold on.

You shouldn't have asked me to do this, Devin.

Oh, we're in trouble. Because you know it's going to be about newsletters. It's going to be a haiku about freaking newsletters. And then she's going to get the last word because it's like the recording will stop. And that's where we're headed.

Ladies and gentlemen, what would be in Ryan Reynolds's newsletter? Sorry.

Oh, juicy goodness.

It has nothing to do with newsletters. A haiku. Heart aches. Love Unrequited Devin's affection. Distant lonely heart yearns on. Please leave.

Wow. Okay, Hub Heroes, we've reached the end of another episode. Will Lord Lack continue to loom over the community or. Or will we be able to defeat him in the next episode of the Hub Heroes podcast? Make sure you tune in and find out. In the next episode, make sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest episodes and become part of the League of Heroes. FYI, if you're part of the League of Heroes, you'll get the show notes right in your inbox, and they come with some hidden power up potential as well. Make sure you share this power podcast with a friend. Leave a review if you like what you're listening to, and use the hashtag hubcast on any of the socials and let us know what strategy conversation you'd like to listen into next. Until next time, when we meet and combine our forces. Remember to be a happy, helpful, humble human. And, of course, always be looking for a way to be someone's hero.