HubSpot Lead Scoring: Strategy, Rookie Mistakes, + Tool Updates

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Welcome back.

We're all together again. Yay.

Yeah. It feels like it's been a minute.

I know. How's everybody's weekend?

Good.

It was good.

Quite lovely.

Okay. I gotta be honest, guys.

I don't remember what I did.

I don't know if we're all just, like, missing each other a lot, but y' all are way too polite right now.

She's gonna say turn up the heat. Yeah.

Oh, just a little bit.

Just a little bit.

My weekend, honestly, it was crazy.

There we go. Now we're back to the show.

Yeah. Well, I had a really great burrito this weekend, so suck it, Ma.

Oh.

Oh, I know.

Burritos.

I'd like to suck a burrito right now.

Okay. I would like to note for the record, I did not say that. Yeah, I did not say that.

Yeah.

Thank you very much.

That was Dancing on the edge of Whoopsie.

You pushed us down this path and now.

And Max said yes. I'll go there quite quickly, as they've.

Been saying a lot lately around and find out.

Yeah, there's a lot of FAFO going on.

Yep.

My goodness.

Taco sounds like a gourmet popcorn. And speaking of gourmet popcorn, guess what we're talking about this week, guys? Look at that segment.

Oh, that was horrifying. Like, flawless.

I know. It's been a while.

Lead scoring.

Oh, is that what we're talking about? Yeah, we're talking about popcorn today. Yeah.

Well, now I'm hungry. All right. We're talking about lead scoring.

Yeah.

I don't know how we've gotten this far in this podcast without talking about it, especially given the fact that we had literally, what, two episodes with Bastion? Paul from Hubblead IO talking basically about the strategy behind this very topic, which is you get leads into your happy little HubSpot house. How do you know when they're ready? How do you know where they are in their buyer's journey? How do you know when it should go from marketing to sales? But George, you also mentioned that you were excited to talk about this topic because they've rolled out some changes to HubSpot lead scoring, which we're going to be getting to. So we're going to be doing a bit of a two for today. We're going to be talking about strategy and we're going to be talking about the tools itself. But George, I want to start with you. You are always my favorite person to come to with this question. Well, because you're the guy known for simplifying the complex. That's your thing. So what is the simple definition of what HubSpot lead scoring is?

I mean, honestly, when I get asked that question list, my brain gets torn in two different directions. Go figure. One, I feel like it can be like Johnny Depp and you know, the drunk pirate. But also it can be a treasure map. Like at the end of the day, when I think of lead scoring, it's a system that simply assigns some points to, and I hate this word more and more that I hang out with Chris Carolyn to leads. But let's just call them humans. It assigns points to humans. Although in the new tool that we're going to talk about, it could be humans contacts or it could be companies, organizations. So, so you have to think about that subtle difference. Again, we'll, we'll talk about like what went away or what is going away to what is now here. But, but think of this like assigning points to a human organization based on things like visiting a pricing page or downloading a white paper. Or maybe it's based on attributes. Again, something different. There's multiple types of scores that you could be doing because you could do something like job title or industry. And now you're getting these kind of different scores. So think numbers, think humans. Think that maybe the higher the number, the possibly the better fit is probably about the easiest way that I can say that. You could look at a number that might be a slight indicator to if that human is more ready to purchase or buy than somebody who has a potentially lower number. So it comes down to prioritization of the humans based on an indicator that is numeric. Is that simple enough? I hope so.

I got, I got another one thing, do something thing, be something, number go.

Up or down with configurability.

Configurability.

Yeah, you can configure it.

Can we make it up here a.

T shirt as the resident content. Blood is not coming out of my ears. This is fine. This all sounds like the English language. And I'm fine.

They do something.

They do be that way.

Sometimes new words are good.

Number go some way.

Yeah, I think it's configurable. Is really the big point. Like that number goes up or down based on what you decide. And then we'll also be able to talk about this later. There's an AI component depending on how much big money cheddar you shell out to that big sprocket.

You had to go there already, but okay, sorry. We'll get there later. We'll get there later. Yeah.

I just wanted to tease him for what's to come.

It did. Yeah, it's. It's coming. Trust me. Because I have feelings.

How many feelings, though? How many feelings though? Like 5. 17.

I've got a feeling it's some configurability number.

I love it.

Configurability.

It's. It's a. It's a configurable number depending on how this conversation goes.

Oh, God. Okay, so, all right, moving along. When do you actually need to start thinking about lead scoring in HubSpot? Is there such a thing as starting too early or such a thing as starting too late?

There's definitely such a thing as starting too early.

I agree. Yeah, I remember.

Yeah.

When I was onboarding people. People haven't wrote a blog post yet. Get. Get no leads whatsoever. And then being like, yeah, we need to set up this complex lead scoring thing.

You're gonna score exactly how many people?

I'm like, what are we scoring? You're refereeing a game. That's not happening. My guy. Like, what the are we doing? And it was. Sorry. Yeah, I remember I had this, like, really brutal client that he. He came in and he was like the consultant or something for this, like, big pharmaceutical company that was like about to get off the ground. And he's like, all I need to do is set up lead scoring. I'm like, my guy. This thing is even connected to a domain. My dude. Like, what is going on? And we literally spent all of onboarding setting up the most complex lead scoring functionality I've ever seen. And I don't think there. I think at the end of it, he just. He quit or something. Like, it was so stupid.

This is back at like the score property version, right? The old school version.

Yeah. But like, you know, I think that's. That that truth still holds the same today. Right? You definitely can do it. Too early. I mean, really, the. The. The reason you need to me the big reason. And I'm sure there's Others. But the biggest reason that you need any sort of lead scoring or need to think about it is when you need to start thinking about prioritization, said contacts, companies, whatever it may be for some reason, whether it's, you know, something as simple as, oh, you know, Jamie, the sales rep, needs to be able to sort through all the leads they get today and prioritize the most engaged, or, you know, you want to build some sort of automation that says, oh, if score X equals certain threshold and they haven't done X, Y, Z, do something. Right. But, you know, usually. Usually I feel like you don't need lead scoring unless you've gotten some of the other stuff right. Really well. Like, if you really nail down content, you really nail down driving the right traffic, you really nail down conversion. And, like, you've got a lot of people trying to take the time of your customer facing folks. That's when you need to think about it, not before.

Yeah, yeah. I think the. The way that I would say this is the moment in time that the lead generation, meaning the amount of. Let's go there, the amount of humans that are interested in your stuff, eclipses your team's ability to have human conversations at scale. Right? Like, if you get. If you're getting five leads a month, Jimmy can keep up. Yeah, right. Okay. If. If you're getting 20 leads a month, Jimmy and Susie can keep up. Right. Now, if you're getting 500 leads a month, Jimmy and Susie might need some dang help. And so understanding the right fit or the high score or in a perfect world, high score and fit. Now all of a sudden, Jimmy and Susie can at least start at a place that might equal success quicker.

Okay, so I'm making this face for a reason, because I agree with what's being said here. And the.

She's about to not agree.

Is it an and or a but? Is it an and or a but?

It's neither. It's a question. I want to clarify something here because here's the disconnect I have. We have had multiple conversations where we've encouraged. Chad. I saw that.

You in trouble, dude. You in trouble now.

If he giga chats later, he knows I'm forgiving him, so it doesn't matter. But here's the thing. We have had multiple conversations with guests and without about the importance of marketing and sales getting on the same page about how leads are qualified as early as possible. So now we're saying, though, that those conversations should happen as early as possible. But the implementation. You maybe want to Be more strategic about when you put that into HubSpot. So it's not a, it's not a but or an and I'm just trying to understand where that bifurcation occurs.

Well, you can know that somebody is qualified without a score.

Well, okay. So yes. And now we're. Yes. Anding that answer changes depending on whether you're not. You're talking to marketing and sales. Like again. I gotta go back to that conversation with Bastion. Paul, we where you will have a marketing team member saying this is sales qualified. Why haven't you followed up with them? And this. And then as someone in sales, they're about as sales qualified as a sentient cactus. Like what, what are we doing here?

Right? So that's where sentient cactus, the sactus, if you will.

George, help.

Got him, got him, got him.

I mean, I mean, listen, listen. Yes, there. So I here's. I know and I don't want this to get super complex. Yeah, I don't want this to get super complex. But like when I think about this, there are, there are levels of qualification. Right. When I, when I talk to an organization, it might be like, hey, what are the job titles of your ideal client profile? What is the, you know, amount of yearly revenue that they should be making? What are, what are the, you know, and you could go Persona or you could go ideal client profile. But there's some high level things that air quotes qualify them before we actually have to sit down and figure out this like scoring conversation that we're having today. So I just want everybody to, to realized and they already do this. There's there's a pre this and then there's when do you take time to do and use the tools that we're talking about today? That's the differentiator that I would say is like at the end of the day, by the way, most sales reps who are killing it, it's probably a lot of like intuition and just historical understanding of like I can tell they're a right fit. So that's why I'm saying when you get to the point where you, you know, here's the thing. You ever get like you've been to a party, there's 10 people, there's 10 people, you know, you know everybody's name. Know everybody's name. That's in different part. That's, that's one party. You ever been to a party where it's like 50, 60 people and you're overwhelmed and you're like, why did I come here? That's A different kind of party. What I'm saying is the organizations that are at a party of 10, they're just going to be able to know who they're supposed to talk to and realize, oh, I'm gelling with this person. You would get into a party of 50 or 60, you're not real sure. You're back in the corner. And if I could put a lead score on all, above all of those humans heads in that 60 to 70.

Person, I only talk to 80 and higher.

Yeah. I'd know where to head. Right. So it's. Right. Yeah.

I feel like I could end up derailing this conversation, so I'm going to accept this answer for now. It still feels a little, right? Still? No, it still feels a little. I, I totally get what you're saying, George. I think depending on the size of your organization and how, what the influx is, you can kind of skirt the edges on when that conversation takes place. But, and I'll put it a pin in it here, I think it is a very delicate moment of figuring out when the time is to strike because as we've seen specifically with HubSpot, people will say, I don't need a process now until they realize, crap, I needed a process six months ago.

Yeah.

Yes. And I would say it's the size of your organization and there's some type of probably mathematical equation that can be added here and the size of your audience. And I don't mean audience just as like subscribers to your blog, but like, audience of like humans actively.

Your tam.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Your actual tam. Like all the people who want the thing you sell. Right. I mean, I think that's like one of the things is when you really look at it, two things can be true at the same time, I suppose.

Right.

Like you can have that conversation here or you can have it here, depending on what's best for what it is that you're trying to accomplish. I mean, I think, you know, going back to the, the original question there, it's like, like, when do we really implement this? It's like if our leads are a graveyard, you know, we have nobody kicking around in there. It's just desolate. Like, obviously we don't need scoring, just like Max said, you know, and like when it comes to, if our, if our reps are drowning and they're wasting their time with like 20s and 30s and 40s, like, we might know that these 20 and 30 and 40 prospect people, they might fit our profile of who we'd like to sell to, but they're not engaged and, you know, they maybe filled out a form one time six months ago, you know, but if we don't have any kind of lead scoring, well, they're going to be like, going for that person just as much as somebody who freshly filled out a form five seconds ago.

Right.

And I think that's just the differentiator. Like, they might both be well qualified people who fit our tam, who fit our icp, but this person's like, you know, live and kick in, and that one's been, like, dead on the hook for a long time.

Right, okay. All right, let's move on. We've talked about what we should be doing, we talked about when we should be doing it. Now I want to hear about the biggest mistakes you see people make when they're setting up their HubSpot lead scoring. HubSpot. Yeah, Max HubSpot lead scoring and HubSpot.

I think that.

Yeah, I think that the. Today, since they. Because what did they do? They split it between fit and.

Engagement.

Engagement, right. Which engagement, I think, solved the biggest problem that I had seen for years. Like back before this tool came out and it was just the. The scoring properties, right, Is that people would use a single number to measure two completely different things. Like, fit is not the same as how engaged. Right. And so they'd build these, like, elaborate lead scores that were like, oh, did they. They opened this email and their job title contains cfo and it's like, well, what caused the points to go up? Like, are they engaged or are they a good fit or likely neither. Right. So I think the split definitely kind of like solved what I think was one of the more, you know, core, core issues. Right. And I'd say the other, you know, other mistake you make is just like, doing it too early and wasting too much time and brainpower on it that you could be spending somewhere else.

Yeah, Well, I mean, if you're like. If your sales people are like, having a hard time knowing even who the right humans or companies are in the first place in your portal, like, you don't even have the backpack backing processes to sell setup, but they have like a ton of people in the portal and they don't even know who's who. I mean, like, you got to solve that problem, the business logic problem, the user experience problem in your HubSpot, the training problem in your HubSpot before you can even consider jumping into the score and then, like, making it way too complicated. Like, don't, you know, make your. In the new version of the tool, you could set your max score as high as you want. Don't make it like a thousand necessarily. Right? Like, a 0 and 100 score feels good between for people. Like, hey, 0 and 100 is like just an easy round number. And it's like normal. And I think just making it not too complicated. And then, you know, I think if you. With a new version, if you don't implement, like the score decay, then they may have had a bunch of engagement, but you want that. That score to tick down if it's way too old of activity so that it helps that engagement score, you know, work properly. To tell you about the fact that, yeah, they did things, but they haven't done anything recently. Right. And so it's just like a nice identifier, you know? And depending on what your marketing efforts are, I think that's what drives how you want to build that engagement calculation. Because it's unique to every portal, right? It's unique to every business in strategy.

So I agree with everything that Max and Chad have said so far, but I want to almost, I feel like back up 50,000 foot view. And one of the. I have two, by the way, that I want to mention here. One of the biggest mistakes that I've seen is people will set it. Forget it. Those, you know, you can't just throw some rules in, walk away and, like, expect it to work forever. Especially when you're probably dropping one or two new campaigns per quarter or per month, depending on your organization. Yet now you're not scoring anything of the new that you actually created. So, like, it's got to be this, like, growing piece. Also, like, Chad, you mentioned this score of 100, but then I'm like, man, if I had a score of 100, like, what are the limited actions that I could actually score to get somebody to 100? Like, should it be more? And that leads me to my second thing that I think people do wrong is they not. Not the hundred, by the way, just the score in general is like, what the F does the number mean? Yeah, like what. What does the number mean to it? It says, I don't know what that means. And historically, I've had this thing that I've taught called radar research revenue, which will break down this idea of, like, let's say it's a score of a thousand. Okay, well, 250 to whatever means they should be on your radar. Well, what does that even mean? Well, it means that you should probably be just like, you don't have to really put a lot of effort, but it the, the cream is rising to the top. Right. You know, then you get to maybe like 500 and all of a sudden they're, you know, research. Radar research revenue. Yeah. So their research. Well, what does that mean? Well, now you might want to go look at their social channels or you might want to go to look at their website or you might have like a defined process that you have when it comes to like understanding if it's time to like get them into a questionnaire or a survey or a certain workflow that like gets them to convert a couple times to get them specific information that you are trying to research. And then you get to this level that maybe at 750 it's like revenue. Well, what happens? Well, you get an internal notification. We should have driven revenue yesterday because they've, they could sell our ish to us. Like, they know, they know. They've read 50 blogs. They've converted on seven forms. Like, and so like having these action item ideas, these buckets around what a score gets to and then actually having actions like we literally built like lists and emails and workflows all around this thing. That is radar research revenue. So you could take action upon the information once it's delivered to you based on what HubSpot is doing.

That is a very involved. It sounds involved and it's a much more detailed answer to my version of my answer, which is, I am amazed. This is my simple version of this answer. It's not documented. Nobody documents their lead scoring. Nobody documents and shares it. Nobody documents it in a way that is digestible and understood by all. They just make the score and then expect people to understand it. I have been at, I have worked with and been with numerous organizations where that has somehow been the case. Well, they're like, well, it's a high number. We assume they just know. It's like 75 could mean anything.

What's a high number?

Right.

75 out of. Well, for a few of them, they assumed like, well, the best score would be a hundred. And so they're like 75, obviously, duh. And I'm like, that's not how any of that works. And then also another really maybe overly simplistic one is I love that they had the fit. Not fit, but for a long time there, people were just focused on putting score attributes that were positive. And so you'd end up with competitors who are all over your website and being very active because they're very curious of what your content is. And they look like the best lead of all time, but they are A competitor. So little things like that.

Yeah.

And like the, it's, it's really, really important. If it's a, what's the, I guess how would you say this? I don't want to say if it's a customer facing, if it's a user facing or like a, a rep facing score where it's like okay, there is a number. You are going to see the number on a record. This is what it tells you. Right? Like it's really important to educate people on that because like again, how are they going to know well, what's a high score? Like what if the score goes up to 500? What if it goes to a thousand? What if it's infinite? What if it's whatever. Right. You know, you should want to be able to like tell people like, hey, this is the, you know, threshold you want to look at. If it's this, if it's that.

Yeah.

Color code of now.

Yeah, the new, that's exactly what I was going to say is the new version of the scoring property has color coded thresholds. That's pretty essentially level off. So you, you know, whatever your max score is, you say like to 50 is low or 51 to 75 as medium. And it's like a, you know, just like you can with the drop down properties these days as well. You can implement the tags or the labels or the colors and that's, that's.

A really easy way to tell people it's a good number without necessarily putting them through a big training saying what it is.

That was one of my favorite favorite parts about like in reporting. I know this is just a tangent but like when gauge visualizations came out and you could put the bands and gauge visualizations and just give red, yellow, green or whatever colors you want in that gauge visualization. It tells you if you're within your KPI target or not. It's like immediately able to make somebody who doesn't know how it's calculated understand that you're at least in the zone. Now they might not know how to make it go up or down, but they know it's in the zone. Now. One last thing I want to mention too is like, you know the deal score on Deals, that's the newer feature that they've added that's really helpful because it tells you little pluses and minuses as to what made it go up and down. And if I'm not mistaken on this current score property, you still kind of have to look at the details or the history of the property to see what made it go up and down. But I hope that maybe it'll come into like its own custom card that's similar to that kind of a function, like it is on the deal score, right?

Yeah.

Well, let's stick with the tool here for a minute. George, I want to turn it over to you because there are some of us who have been in the HubSpot portal game for a really long time, some of us who may be new, but what is new with the HubSpot lead scoring tool? What's happening in there?

It's a whole new tool, by the way, because that's one thing that we probably should have said at the very beginning of this episode, is like, if you have HubSpot property score in place, you need to go and revisit that real quick, like, because it's getting ready to sunset, which means any system that you have historically built on that, that property is just not going to work anymore. And so instead of a property, it is a real tool. And when I say it's a real tool, what I mean is it is a tool that one. If you have Enterprise, you could create a score with AI In Pro, you can't do that. But if you have Pro, you can literally create a contact engagement score. You can create a contact fit score. And these engagement or fit scores could be based off of contacts or companies. I alluded to that. It could be human or organization. At the beginning of this episode, again, if you have Enterprise, you could even create a Contact combined score. Which, by the way, that right there gets real interesting because it's like, it.

Goes right back to the original problem Max just mentioned.

It's the right for them and it's the right for us. And it's all in one kind of score. And so there's a. There's a higher level of granularity or a deeper level of granularity that you can go to when you're actually creating these scores. Because you have these things list called event groups. And then in an event group, you can add criteria. And this could be anything from like calls to CTAs to documents to like. Then you could even get into like, web events. And then you can literally filter the web events on like page visited. But then after that, you can even filter it down further than that. And like, you can add time frames and you can add frequencies. And so like, you quickly realize that this is not just a positive attribute. Add five points, negative attribute minus 100 points. Like, it's way, way past that. You even have a thing in here where you can score every time or you can limit to certain things as well. So again, I would just say like actually, what was that word? Custom of whatever.

Configurability.

Configurability.

Configurability, yeah.

The configurability of this thing to what you're trying to do. Now here's one thing I will say warning, I need a. If you're on pro, if you're on pro, you get five scores. So you got to be real careful of like the, the five ways that you're going to implement this. Unless you know that you're just gonna put five in place because you're gonna add more when you go to enterprise, that's not a sales pitch. I'm just letting you know, like the limitation here is one, one without AI or with AI, it's enterprise. With that multi score, it's enterprise. And if you're not on enterprise, you get five scores.

And on that AI assisted one, it's supposed to like analyze successful conversations is kind of the tagline of what it, what it, what they say. So like it's supposed to look at things that influence the likelihood to close and help try and recommend. And it like, you know, even in the doc, like the, even the paywall, it shows like, oh, we're training a model on this. Right. If you're looking at the paywall, but they're like trying to make the advanced scoring as intuitive as possible. I'm not exactly sure how that AI piece works with the combined score. If it helps like alleviate the issue of the original score property, which was both the fit and engagement score, or if maybe that's one that would be best used in the background for kind of the marketing team to get an overall health or score of the contact. But maybe not, you know, work with the sales team. Or maybe that one would be better for the sales team, I'm not too sure. Also, with those Legacy Score properties, July 1, 2025, you're no longer going to be able to edit your existing score properties. And then apparently August 31st, they're deprecating them entirely, I think. Right. Or they'll stop updating.

Yep.

Because they're basically like lists in a property, multiple lists in a property or something like that.

And you used to work and you can find out more information on that. And I'm just doing this because you should be checking this out anyway. In the right hand side drop down, there's product updates. You can go to product updates and you can look at the score property sunset information. If you Are somebody who has that score property in place right now. Yeah.

Your workflows. If you're using it in a workflow, your workflows actually page throws it up in lights and like, hey, you're still using this. Check it out.

Yeah. Yep.

Is there anything that we wish was different with the tool?

I wish it. I wish it locked it out until you've successfully used other tools.

Like you have to earn it. Like a five.

Earn it?

Yeah, it's a badge. It's like, like a game unlock. That's amazing.

Yeah.

You have to get these three achievements before you can even start working on capture X.

Amount of leads to unlock this tool. It's like I paid for it. Exactly.

It's amazing.

Performance based. It's a performance based dlc.

I'm trying to think if there's actually anything. I'm sure there are. I. You know what I would do? I would ask the. I would ask the listeners, is there something currently that they wish that it would do? Because then they could let us know. I feel like it'd be, yeah, maybe.

I'm wrong about this, but I feel like I tried to use it a while ago to be like, oh, like how would I go use that new lead scoring tool to say, you know, if a person went to like an event, give them a score. And the way I was like going to try to do that is say, like if. If the contact is associated to a custom object of a certain name with a certain label at a point. I don't think I was able to access associated object data to build a score, but this was a long time ago, so I don't know if they've added it.

Yeah, the new one. You can do associated object information for your score and custom objects too, if I'm not mistaken. I was just looking at building a score property a minute ago.

Yeah, I mean, it's been a while since I looked at it, so it wouldn't surprise me if they built it in.

Gentlemen, if you can believe it, we've come to the end of our time together.

Oh, wow.

What?

That.

I know.

I literally can't believe it.

Yeah.

Help us land.

Yeah.

For the fit score. It can.

Sick.

Sorry, I had to interrupt because I had to tell. I had to tell Max that it could be done. I'm sorry.

So it's fit instead of engagement.

Damn.

It actually makes a lot of sense. Okay.

Yep. Okay.

We're done by knowledge.

Knowledge.

Awful.

Take that. Lord Lack.

What is your between 1 and 27 things you want our listeners to remember? From this episode today 28 please, no.

One thing maybe. So I'm torn. I actually, it's funny, Liz, you know me so well. I'm. I'm kind of torn because my initial knee jerk response is like, when creating lead scoring for your organization, please document it and train on it. Like, that's the first knee jerk response of like, do that. But the other thing I would say is like, there's a. There's probably a large set of listeners that haven't even dipped their toe into this bad boy. And so the other side of my brain goes to, you know, don't just ignore it like Max, even in, in this episode. Well, it's been a while since I've used it or looked at it. HubSpot is really good at not being the HubSpot that you tested. HubSpot is really good at not being the HubSpot that you used six months ago. And so anybody listening out there that is like, that thing's janky because they looked at it when it was in beta, it's time to re look at it and think about is it the right time for you to start using lead scoring in your organization? And if so, build a process, document it, train it, and actually go forward and use it for what it's meant to be used for instead of just a piece of your navigation that you ignore. Like it doesn't exist.

Like HubSpot project.

Oh God. Shots fired. Okay, Hub Heroes, we've reached the end of another episode. Will Lord Lack continue to loom over the community or will we be able to defeat him in the next episode of the Hub Heroes podcast? Make sure you tune in and find out in the next episode. Make sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest episodes and become part of the League of Heroes. FYI, if you're part of the League of Heroes, you'll get the show notes right in your inbox and they come with some hidden power up potential as well. Make sure you share this podcast with a friend, leave a review if you like what you're listening to and use, use the hashtag hubberospodcast on any of the socials and let us know what strategy conversation you'd like to listen into next. Until next time, when we meet and combine our forces, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble human. And of course, always be looking for a way to be someone's hero.