HubSpot Loop Marketing Tailor STAGE Deep-Dive Part I

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Liz, before you get started, I actually have to ask Chat a question now that I've had a chance to. Of. Like, I. I just was looking at the screen. Does your technology keep having babies? Like, when we started the show, you had a printer, and now you've got a 3D printer. And I don't remember there being a TV and a massive sound bar in your background historically, like, what's. What's happening technology wise over at your house?

Chad, I just like the. You know, sometimes there's just. I mean, I had a TV sitting in a closet. I'm like, why am I going to leave that sucker sitting in a closet when I could just put it here?

Well, there you go, you know. Okay, so you're. You're kind of tailoring your room to your needs and how. Go ahead, Liz, kick us out, George.

I can.

I really wanted to express myself before that.

There you go.

There you go.

Okay. All right. You know what, guys? I already have the Washington commanders grinding any sense of hope or dreams I have into a fine powder. I don't need you guys helping with that, all right? I don't need any assistance there.

We'll behave today.

I don't know about that.

Well, George, you've done with such subtlety and adept grace, integrating what we're going to be talking about today. So we've spent the past few episodes having some feelings about loop marketing, which is the new playbook that HubSpot has rolled out. And we are. Over the past couple of episodes, we talked about express, right? The first step, the first stage in loop marketing. And that's all about clarity. That's about defining your brand identity and your tone and your values and the thing, right? And today we are on to the next chapter, and that is Taylor. Yeah, we are here. And I'm actually going to go ahead and have us dive right into my first question, because Lord knows where this conversation is going to go. And I want to make sure we maximize all the time we have. So, George, I want to start with you. Let's dig into the definition of what Taylor is. Right. So HubSpot says this stage is all about using AI to make interactions, personal, contextual, relevant. And I even pulled this quote directly from the HubSpot Loop Marketing Playbook. The Taylor stage uses unified data to CRM transcripts, web behavior to shape experiences that feel more like how did they know? And a little less dear, first name goes here, but a lot of words. So can you just wave that magic wand of yours to simplify the complex and really distill down for our audience what it is that we're talking about here?

Yeah, so listen, sometimes, especially historically, paying attention at scale has been really hard. And therefore we've done things like we've hacked our way to try, trying to feel like we know using personalization tokens, first name, company name, add the property in HubSpot that you've historically thought was the most amazing thing because you could reverse engineer it and dump the information into an email or landing page or whatever. AI. Because of course, we got to mention hybrid teams here. AI has made it easier for us to be able to pay attention or it can pay attention and then do things. So when I think about Taylor, right, And you know me, I'm, I'm, I, I like, I like helping people. I'm a helpful human, right? And I like to help the right humans right at the. At the right time. Now, I'm not making anything new here. We've heard this from 2012. It's helping the right people with the right thing at the right time. Like so, so nothing's really changing as far as that goes, but it's at the scale at which we can actually do this. And so, Liz, to answer your question, it's like Taylor means that we simply pay attention to what someone just did or what someone just said, and then we give them the next best thing that fits them. Kind of like we do as like the Hub Hero podcast. We're teachers, we got this loop marketing thrown in our lap as a community. And so we're like, well, the next best good thing we can do is try to simplify this. And so think about your portal and we'll talk a little bit deeper about this. But think about your HubSpot Hub, your portal. Think about all the humans in it. Think about all the things they could do or could say, by the way, inside and outside of the portal. I'll literally talk about prospecting agent and how that even Helped kind of tailor something, but it's paying attention and then thinking about the experience that happens and what needs to happen. But what needs to happen in between what was done or said and the experience you provide. That juicy middle is Taylor.

I love that. Now, Max, I want to come back to you because you dropped something super sweet and super adorable. And depending on your answer, I think we're going to find out where today's conversation goes. So last week, when we teed up that we were going to be talking about Taylor, you said, at first glance, the line between Express and Taylor for you was very blurry in that it wasn't totally clear to you where one ended and the other began. It's just, we're gonna, we're gonna walk into this safely, guys. Chad, George, let's link arms. Max, do you still feel that way? Okay.

I think I'm starting to get it.

Let it finish. Let him finish.

I mean, if it's, if it's simply because, again, I'm trying to, I'm trying to simplify this down for the blue collar marketer such as myself. Right. And make it a little bit easier to understand if I'm, if I'm understanding Express correct. And kind of where we landed on that, it was, it was really like onboarding your, your, your AI agent or whatever it is that's helping you, you know, create this content, be able to create it as if it was one of your employees that had the context of your business, your customers, who you are, and all those kinds of things. Right. And, you know, we haven't gotten too deep into it yet, but like, if we're looking at Taylor and saying this is the part or the space or the, the chunk in which you then, like, you know, are thinking a little bit deeper about, I guess, what we would kind of colloquially refer to as buyer Personas, like who you're actually making the content for. And creating the content for them started to become a little clearer to me, which is good. I think we made a breakthrough.

So I love that we're making a breakthrough. And let me just kind of add some additional stuff to what Max, what you just said, Express that we've covered. And by the way, if this is the first episode that you're listening to, I'm sorry, go back and listen to, like the multiple episodes that we've had about everything, but also just about the Express. But Express, it really comes down to, it's our identity, it's the point of view, the tone, the proof that that never changes. This could be for AI, it could be for humans, it could be considered like onboarding the human or the AI to those things. But it's identity point of view, tone Taylor really is the context. And, and I, I started out by saying, paying attention, what I want you to do if I go marketing nerdiness here, it's like the signals, right? So think of things like role or stage or behavior that has happened and then adjusting the message, adjusting the offer, adjusting the channel, adjusting the timing for delivering of the things based on the rule, stage or behavior. And what we need to think about or talk about is what is the set of rules based on the signals that gets the experience that we want to be desired. I want to add that piece in. There are some things that people might have wanted to jot down in that section to kind of think about as, as we move forward.

That was a writer downer.

Yeah.

Chad, where do you come down on all this?

Yeah, yeah, I think the thing that I'm like noticing is there's like, okay, imagine the first time through the loop. It's almost like CRM configuration in a way because you are going to be building the system for the hybrid team and then every subsequent time through the loop will be a little easier, right? Because you've already done some of the heavy lifting at the beginning and the purpose of the fact that it's in an infinity symbols, because you're supposed to go through it a whole bunch of times, right?

Yeah.

Every time you do campaign loop, every time you're running through whatever it is you're doing, loop.

Right.

But with this one, you know, especially even just right off the website of Loop Marketing, they're talking about, okay, you're going to need to enrich your data, you're going to need to build your audience segments, you're going to need to make your content personal, which pulls from some of the previous configuration that you did in Express because it's, you know, the AI systems are more aware of who you are, what you're doing and why you're doing it and who you're helping and then, you know, ensure human quality checks. So you're going to have to like work with more of these tools this first time to start working on your AI powered segments or hey, what in the world does the personalization agent inside of HubSpot do? Or how if I'm not using HubSpot, how am I going to kind of try to come up with some scalable personalization sort of system that will work with my process? You know, it doesn't all have to be inside a HubSpot, but it's easier to use some of these things. But these things can be obviously recreated outside of HubSpot with more work, you know, it is possible to do. So anyway, all that to say like, this first time through the Loop. Well, if you want to do Express, you really got to dive in deep and, you know, do like the, the, the George B. Thomas therapy couch and like, really understand who your business is. Right. Once you transmitted that, then next time you go through Express, the system's gonna know what you did last time and you'll either be able to build on it or you'll be able to use it. Same with this. Set up the segments, enrich the bulk of your portal, work through some of these other pieces, get through the system, and then next time you go through, it'll be a little bit easier to tailor that message because you'll be able to fire things into these existing systems that you built.

It's.

It's interesting, Chad, because the couple places where hopefully we get to either this episode or next episode one, I think there's literally where we could talk about the tools in HubSpot that actually could be applied in this Taylor stage. But also, as you were talking, I started to think about this idea of maybe there's. We have the gigantic loop, right? We have the. We have the Loop Playbook. Marketing Loop. Marketing Playbook. But maybe there's these mini loops inside of each of these stages. Because when I hear you talk about Express that we talked about, it's like maybe every three months, every six months, every year, you're doing an iterative loop inside of Express to see if that's still how you want to show up, if that's still how you want to sound.

Yeah.

Has the world changed? Right, And. And do we need to tweak it a little bit? And when I think about Taylor and I think about a tiny loop, a mini loop inside of this stage, it literally would be this. It would be signals, it would be decision rules. It would be the experience we provide, the results we got from the experience we provided, and then improve that over time. Because now if you see, like, well, okay, the experience that we did because of the rules that we set based on the signal that they gave us, it didn't quite work out, right? But if we change that to they visited the pricing page four times instead of two times in seven days now, maybe that signal is actually more of the right signal for the experience that we're providing for a salesperson to Reach out, let's change that, measure it, and see if we need to improve or. Now this hits it out of the park from an experience standpoint based on the signals that they gave us. Yeah.

I think another thing, like, in terms of thinking about how you sort of travel along this sort of loop thing, I think, like, a pretty sort of, like, fatal interpretation that I had of it at the beginning when I was looking at it was, you know, when I looked at the flywheel, attract, engaged, delight, it was really easy for me to look at that and say, these are the things you do. It was also really easy for me to look at that and sort of almost like match it to something sort of alongside the buyer's journey, even though those are totally, totally, like, completely separate concepts. But, like, you know, I could still follow that sort of circular pattern as, like, what a customer is actually experiencing as they go through it. Right? So, like, I. I get attracted to something by finding and consuming the content and all that kind of stuff. Then I engage with someone, then hopefully they delight me, and then I'll go tell other people to do it. Right. It was really easy for me to say, you know, to match this to, like, not only is this something you're doing on the back end internally, but it's also something that, like, I'm experiencing as a. As a customer. Right. And I tried to take that same mental model and apply it to this, and I realized that was a mistake because customer doesn't go through this loop. Right. A customer doesn't have any, you know, say, into, like, how you're express. I mean, maybe they do in, like, a tangential way, but, like, it's not a journey they go on. They still go on that same journey of, you know, that buyer's journey that we talk about. They still get, like, you know, through this content that's getting created, they get attracted to you somehow engage with you, and then hopefully get delighted by you. That still happens. This is more of, like, internally, what are you doing behind the scenes versus something that, you know, someone's, like, experiencing in the same pattern that we are in the back end, Right? Like, sure, they're informing it 100%. Right. Because you're going to take feedback from your customers and you're going to apply it to this, right? Yeah, but I think that was one of the big things that was really, like, confusing me that I didn't really realize until now, thinking back on, like, how I was first interpreting it. Because the more we talk about this, the more it makes sense.

Can we can we dive into that a little bit more, though? Because, Max, what I would even say is yes to everything that you said. Like, there's this us part of Taylor in the background, but then there's the buyer's journey part of the experience. And the experience, it's. It's gonna change. Like, here's something that kind of freaks me out but excites me a little bit about where we're heading. When you think about the buyer's journey historically, and. And by the way, Liz, Chad, Max, I'm going to say some things, and you just tell me at the end of this if you agree. When you think about the buyer's journey historically, what we did as marketers, as we did our best to try to understand that journey. So we would create usually a full funnel. We'd have some blog articles. We'd have three different offers. It might be a checklist, it might be a guide, it might be a webinar. Maybe there's a fourth one that hands off to a sales or a demo. But we're creating this content because we're trying to answer these questions. We're creating these offers because we want to start conversations, AKA have conversions. And at the end of it, it's like we're trying to attract people, get them to go through this information, be helpful for them to the end, where they book a sales call and they become a customer and we earn revenue. Would everybody agree that that's the. What we've done historically to create this, like, content journey that people can go through?

Yeah. Okay. I can get on that.

Okay.

Like, there's some nuance. I mean, that's like, you know, my nuances could take up a whole episode. But on its face, high level. Yes. Yeah.

Okay. And here's what's fun about that, is you knew what the PDF, the ebook, the guide, the checklist had in it. Yes. And you knew exactly what was in the articles because they were written and that's what they were. Yes. You knew what was in the emails because somebody like Liz wrote the emails. And so you just knew this is the email that they got. Hopefully, yes. Okay. See, here's where it gets crazy, because we're headed into a world where none of that actually is what's going to be happening. And what I mean by that is if you pay attention to this tailor phase and you pay attention to what HubSpot's doing, I want you to think about this right here, which is a private beta, by the way, but it's AI email creation. Now, historically, we would write the email and so we would know what the email says and we would be like, okay, there's some confidence, reassurance, trust in that we wrote this thing. I want you to realize what HubSpot is doing here. And by the way, it's starting with email, but I know that it'll branch out to other places is. Look at this. Tell us about your email. The goal of this email is for HubSpot customers to join our yearly inbound. Here's the key information. HubSpot invites its customers to yearly inbound event. And then it says, AI, go look at everything in this portal and build out the the email. And so now a human didn't write this, but a human created the words. And this is why I brought up earlier this idea of decision rules because we have to start to think about if AI is going to help us pay attention, if AI is going to help us think, tailor the messaging that we set in the express. How comfortable can we get or should we get with prompts equaling the output for the thing that the people actually need or want to see? We got to understand we're entering or are already in a completely different world when it comes to what we as marketers do internally and what they see through the buyer's journey externally. I'll just.

Yeah, that feature scares the shit out of me. Like a B testing, right? Like when you have no idea the content that's in there, how do you even know like what's performing well?

Well this is like AB testing and.

Maybe we get to a world where we don't care about that is too much. I already think a B testing is kind of cringe and just not worth it. But like, you know, a lot of people don't think that way. Right. And you know, it. I think it does involve like a lot of people like sort of, you know, pick and choose in their battles, you know, in terms of like, does this make your life any easier versus like how much control do you have over like knowing what's successful and what's not? Right. So it scares me a lot. But yeah, it's an interesting feature.

Okay, so let's dig in here for a moment about. About Taylor from the perspective of. Right. So high level, we're getting personalized. That's kind of the thesis of tailored. Right. But this doesn't feel precisely like a brand new concept.

No.

Theoretically personalization is something we've been attempting to do with varying degrees of tone deaf to Big Brother, just sometimes getting it right. Right. So what is different here between how we've been talking about personalization previously and how HubSpot is talking about it now. Because what I'm really trying to understand here with this question is like, is the theory still pretty much the same and we're just talking about more sophisticated execution or are we kind of redefining or reimagining how we look at personalization to begin with?

Yeah, I mean, see, this is where it kind of like where I, I kind of get back into my like, mindset a little bit where it kind of like feels like, like it feels like we're kind of encouraging the use of, of tools here. Right. Which I think I need to get over one. But like we've been doing this like it's called building buyer Personas and creating content people are actually looking for. Like you, you always take, we've always tailored the content we've been creating. We didn't need to enrich contacts and build segments before in order to do that necessarily. Right. That is a process of thinking deeply about what are these people searching for and can you create what they're searching for and can the contents of that thing that they find change hearts and minds and get them to trust you? Right. We've been tailoring for a long time.

Also with smart content and tokens as well.

Sure. Right. You know, and the thing is, is like I feel like you can do that without enriching your data and building audience segments and like, like it's really just that third sort of thing you see inside of Taylor here from looking at the, the thing here. Like I can enrich my data all I want, but if I don't actually think about like who my buyer Personas are and like creating content that actually resonates with them, I can, I can get their, I can go get their job title through, you know, you know, through tokens or whatever in Breeze. And like I don't think that's going to help me that much. Right. I think, I think you could make an argument if you're, if you're doing like a lot of ads based stuff and things like that and really hyper focusing on that. But again, it's just like this is kind of where I, I, I'm, I'm stuck between this place where it's like, yeah, I get it, you want to tell your messaging. But like we're kind of throwing in an unnecessary hint there to go spend some Breeze credits. Right. Playing devil's advocate.

Go ahead, Chad. I'll, I'll, I'll bring up the rear on this bad boy.

Yeah, I'm nervous. I've been watching George pace now for about two minutes. But please go.

Let's let it, let's let it build. All right.

I love giving George agita is what I'm doing right now.

Yeah. So like, I mean, imagine, okay, AB testing or trying to figure out what works, what doesn't work used to happen at the like email level. Like I have one email with two things or a couple pages that I'm testing and it's to one or more, you know, lists or segments of your, your audience. And now with AI's functional power, like it costs to use AI just period. So that just is a reality. Right. And like when you want to, like, I mean, just from a tactical perspective, no defense or argument one way or the other, but from a tactical perspective, if you're throwing AI in and it costs inference compute on GPUs and you have to pay per token. Like do you want to make your entire product more expensive across for everybody who doesn't want to use this or do you want to let people derive value from it at the usage level? So that's one question. But then like think about your, your, your AB testing is more moving to the configuration of the loop a B testing rather than the per email AB testing. So like the inputs I'm giving AI to assist are my AB test because it's able to consider and hyper personalize that scale. Like you don't need to AB test because every person runs through, you know, the inputs of the model and comes out with an answer of something that's hopefully really personalized for that human at like an individual level or I mean there's like obviously buckets there. So between like your AI segments and what's coming out of the model, but really the AI, the AB testing is moving upstream to the configuration level. I feel like when you change the inputs on the model and what it does, everybody's going to get a different output for all of the stuff that it touches. So that's like a whole different kind of a B testing that nobody, including what's in HubSpot has considered at this time, I don't think.

Yeah.

So I love this conversation. And there's two different places that I could take this one. I could take this totally like content, which I'm not going to do. But. But if I was going to take this to content, I would tell you it is very easy now for me to use my AI assistant in HubSpot or AI assistant in ChatGPT. To say, hey, we did this episode of the Hub Heroes podcast. It's general information. Please write me an article for accountants, then write me an article for churches, then write me an article for xyz. And it, it'll, it'll personalize that content at scale based on the Persona that I'm directing it at with ease. I've tested it multiple times and it's pretty fascinating. That's not where I want to go though. We could totally have a whole conversation on that. Here's where I want to go. Historically, when we think about and Liz even mentioned tokens and smart rules, historically, when we talk about personalization or tailoring, it's what we want to do. I want to put these personalization tokens in an email. I need this segmented list because I need to be able to view as a marketer the amount of humans that have dropped into this list automagically. I want to create smart rules that swap out copy and images or forms based on like because they ended up in a certain Persona segmented list which to then I'm going to do some guesswork and hopefully this works the way that it should. And that's been like marketing. And by the way, it's, it's worked. I'm not saying it didn't work, but where HubSpot is going where with the use of hybrid teams with AI, it's different. And so like instead of just purely thinking about tokens, I want people to start to think about signals. What's actually happening around the humans that we're trying to help. So tokens, signals instead of just segments, I want you to think about this less of this is the list that I need to see and what is actually happening in the buyer's journey, meaning moment based next steps. So again, less about segmentation, more about moment based next steps. What happened today at scale that makes us do the next thing? And then instead of like, well, we want to swap out some copy or an image, like, what is the experience that you're orchestrating, right? And then it's like, what are these teachable rules that you can give your system, your CRM, your AI? I want you to think about buyer intent in the marketing dropdown. I want you to think about journeys in the marketing drop down. I want you to think about how it segments now instead of lists inside of the marketing dropdown. Because if we think about historically tokens, segments, swapping copy and guesswork. And we think in the future, in hybrid teams, we think signals, moment based next steps experiences that we're orchestrating testable rules and earned trust because we're building something that is better on the outward facing, less on what we historically needed to see. Like, this is where my brain goes when we're talking about the Taylor stage. Like, it's a totally different set of things that we should be thinking about, therefore, tools that we're going to be using. Which is why HubSpot has been actively building out these tool sets and attaching them to AI to be faster, smarter. The $6 million HubSpot tool, if you will.

Yeah, well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but like Taylor traditionally would have been smart blocks in an email.

Yes.

Or personalization tokens and the rest of the email, unless it was in some sort of smart content that segmented out a chunk of it, large portions of the email would remain static.

Yes.

Now, what's terrifying to a lot of people at the beginning is, wait, so you're telling me I have like some overall control with a prompt, but I don't get to say where the personalization tokens go. And I don't, you know, like, you get to say what segments get something and a prompt for that segment, basically. And then it, you just let her rip, brother. And like she goes, right. And that's terrifying for a lot of people.

That's the initial knee jerk reaction. And you're right, because when I first, if I circle back to the first time that we started to talk about this update on the customer platform show that I do with Chris and Casey, I got this gut wrenching, like, I think I need to go use the bathroom, I'm gonna throw up moment. But you have to start to think about how good can you get, how good can the system get and how better is the experience for the individual human. On the other side of this, if it does, if I'm using air quotes, it does what it's supposed to do in the way that it's supposed to do. But, but this is going to be something. Chad, like, I wanted to say this as you're talking, like, will there be a day where dumb air quotes emails don't exist? No, because there will be people who don't subscribe to loop marketing, There will be people who don't subscribe to HubSpot. So you'll still have everything all over the board. But like, does this become easier at some point than it historically was to create dope experiences along the way?

Yeah.

Well, and that's why it's like to me, anybody who's trying to generate those kinds of wonderful customer experiences on the output. Your A B testing is going to move to model training.

So. So it's. Yeah. So, Max, here's what's. Here's what's interesting is, like, you can train a model. You can train an assistant. Like, there's two variations of things that I want to do or three variations of things that I want to do. Then it knows, like, here's the two or three different variations. Therefore, when it goes to actually give the output, it knows that it should give the output in one of the three or two ways that you've actually trained it to do the thing in its simplest form. That's how I would explain that.

Yeah. It's basically just like giving it parameters and guardrails around whenever you give it a prompt. You prefer XYZ to happen. And that's exactly what, you know. What you feel like onboarding the employee in Express is you're training the model. Like, that's what you're doing. You're telling the model how to act.

Right.

And what you want the outputs to be. And I think that is ultimately where a B testing is going to end up for us when we're using this platform to do these things. Right.

Yeah. I think I'm starting to develop my easy way of explaining these four things the more that we talk about it. And how about you guys help me figure out if I'm on the right track?

Okay.

Right. Express. And I think I'll evolve this more as we keep talking about it. But here's where I am right now in episode three, halfway through the steps we've gone through. Right. Express is like, teach your AI how to sound like you. Right. Taylor is think about who your actual customers are and start creating the actual content. Amplify. Sounds like how you actually get it out there, because there's so many different ways that you can do it and then evolve basically means learn from it and do better next time in the.

Most simplest basic forms. Yes. Now, what I add in, it's not only AI, but it's humans.

Yeah.

Hybrid teams.

Right?

Yeah.

I think, like, there is. I don't want people to, like, look at this, because I feel like I was kind of fallen victim to this a little bit. Again, I'm in a very reflective state as we have these conversations. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who may have been thinking of it the same way that I do. I. I think I'm. I'm pulling myself out of the idea that we're just letting AI create everything, I think people watching this should, should realize you could still have completely human generated content and go through this process.

Without a doubt, the AI can assist.

You with that, with all the parts that are really hard and really sticky and really difficult. Right. But you still can have complete control over your content through this strategy. Right. I think what it would, it feels like to me is everyone, I think is going to kind of have their own way of harnessing this framework to figure out how much AI plays a role in that. Right?

Yes.

And let it have as much of a role as you want it to. And then I think for some people where the content creation side of things is a little bit more difficult, you could dial up that AI involvement a little bit more. Right. You know, for those folks that have very talent, naturally talented, maybe not naturally, but have access to talented writers that really understand their product, really understand their audience, that's great. Not everybody has that. Right. And so in those situations, you may dial up the AI generated content creation a little bit more, but if you're not in that situation and you have the luxury of people who have the ability to create content that really resonates with folks, you can amplify those people's abilities more by reducing the amount of minutia that they would have to go through without the assistance of AI as well, and maybe amplify their efforts a little bit more. Not amplified in the, in the stage amplified, but like, you know, how much better could those already skilled content creators be when they have this AI framework sort of acting as like a teammate for them? Well, in whatever capacity that looks like.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I agree with what you're saying, but where I would challenge people to push their minds to is rev ops AI sales, AI. Like what I'm talking about here is yes, you're, you're leaning because you're very content brained and so am I. I love content. But like it, it can be way past just content. It's, it's process. It's like, like there's so much more that hybrid teams AI. And I know we're just talking about loop marketing right now, which is probably maybe one of my biggest gripes is there's these loops in every department of your organization. By the way, in, in every hub of HubSpot, there could probably be a loop that you're. Everything is a circle that you're putting circle of life. Okay, nevermind, I'll shut up.

True, true. But it's not like a square. Square has corner. A circle. Wow.

Be really cool there.

I can't remember. Liz, what's going through your head?

What's going through my head is that I had a really adorable thought that maybe we get through Taylor in one episode and. Absolutely not, because we haven't even gotten to the house. Haven't even gotten to the strategy portion. We haven't gotten to the tools and technology. I think what is going through my head personally right now is that to your point last time, Max, and something I said at the beginning of this conversation and maybe just have to be something that I accept, this is not where a group of people in HubSpot sat down and said, we need to build a new playbook based on the humans. They were solving a product problem. And that's what has become even more clear to me as we go along. Right. Like, we're having these very big conversations, and we're using lofty language about, you know, making them feel seen, heard, and understood. But when you hear Max, simplify it down to what actually it is that they're trying to do. This is about getting to people to use the product properly. That's what it comes down to. And I understand that. I understand also with the integration and introduction of more sophisticated tools, whether we're talking about HubSpot or other platforms, because HubSpot, you know, it's. We love HubSpot. They are not the only ones innovating with these types of products in their platforms for marketing and sales automation. Right. So I understand that as we move through inbound and as it continues to evolve, from a definition standpoint, it does become more complex. We have to think about new and different variables. But it's just interesting to me. I. I can't believe ever I'd ever say this. I missed the flywheel. I missed the good old days.

It didn't go anywhere.

I don't think it went anywhere. But I hear what you're saying.

That's the thing. Still here. The week we could. We. Next week, we could decide we're gonna just break down the flywheel for eight weeks.

But here's the thing. I would love to hear HubSpot come out and say that and acknowledge that the flywheel's still there.

Right now, we have two infinite loops. The flywheel was designed to be infinite, and the loop is designed to be infinite. Please tell me how all of my spinny objects work together.

True. Here. Here's what I'll say, because I know that at the beginning.

Yeah. Help us land this plane, George.

Yeah, at the beginning of these conversations, I was like, well, this is the first time that felt like HubSpot was launching something that was pretty product led instead of like methodology or, or inbound religion led. Right. I, I'm teetering on that because here's the thing. I, as I dig into this, I do see where if we change our focus on the things that we're actually able to focus on how we can actually impact and change the experience that those around our business will be able to experience. And so part of me is teeter tottering on this of like. Well, it just so happens that yes, HubSpot has been building these tools to do these things to fix the pain points that they were feeling like, let's be honest, SEO is very difficult right now. The hottest thing is trying to figure out how to get into LLMs journeys. Buyer journeys have always been super crazy and difficult and hard. And we, we would do our best to say they were a bowl of spaghetti but not a straight line. But when you have something that doesn't have to create or talk in a straight line hybrid AI team does then the things that historically been hard because you have the tools to do it get easier? I don't know. Tune in for Max has been drawing.

I think this is how the loop goes together with the flywheel.

Oh God, look at that. If you're listening to this podcast episode, we're going to put a screenshot of this magnificent artwork. Go check it out on the show notes.

Yeah.

Ladies and gentlemen, all I have to end us with is we'll see you in episode two.

Two.

Yeah.

Of Taylor.

Yeah. Okay, Hub Heroes, we've reached the end of another episode. Will Lord Lack continue to loom over the community or will we be able to defeat him? In the next episode of the Hub Heroes podcast, make sure you tune in and find out. In the next episode, make sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest episodes and become part of the League of Heroes. FYI, if you're part of the League of Heroes, you'll get the show notes right in your inbox and they come with some hidden power up potential as well. Make sure you share this podcast with a friend, leave a review if you like what you're listening to, and use the hashtag hubbyerospodcast on any of the socials and let us know what strategy conversation you'd like to listen into next. Until next time, when we meet and combine our forces, remember to be a happy helpful, humble human. And, of course, always be looking for a way to be someone's hero.