Loop Marketing The Halfway Point with Chris Carolan

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I love how we're starting off with such keen professionalism. This doesn't give me any sort of anxiety about the conversation we are about to walk into. Today. We are thriving.

I was just giving it a little.

Pop, Little razzle, if you will.

It needed a little bit of a pop today.

Yeah, it did.

Well, we already have. Well, it's fair. This is a very special episode and we're about to talk about why. So welcome back to yet another episode in our extensive series about loop marketing. If you are joining us for the first time on this journ, Loop Marketing from HubSpot is, according to them, a new four stage approach that combines AI efficiency and human authenticity to drive growth. So we've gone through the first two stages, right? We've gone through Express and we've gone through Taylor. But before we move on to the final two stages of amplify and evolve, we wanted to take a breather at our midway point to unpack what we've discussed.

So so far, I'm a cutting breather.

You know, we've had a lot of feelings. I think that's a good way to put we've had a lot of feelings over the past several episode. We've questioned things like, do we even need loop marketing? Why is it here? What are we doing? Mom, I'm scared. It's dark. I need an adult. Like, there's been a lot going on. But we thought we would bring in a longtime friend of the podcast, Chris Carolan, to help us regroup and reframe the loop marketing conversation for our listeners.

But yeah.

Chris.

Hi.

How you doing, bud?

Hey, Chris.

Hey. I'm doing all right back.

Thank you. How you feeling going into today's discussion?

Hopeful.

Hopeful. What are we hopeful for? That was the most trepidatious, concerned hopeful I have ever heard.

It was a question more than a statement. I think I know.

I know who we're dealing with here.

He's questioning his choice I'm optimistic.

Oh, okay, good.

George, how you feeling going into this episode? Which, of course, I ask right as you're taking a sip of coffee.

No, I'm feeling great. I can't wait to get into it.

Yeah.

How the dog's doing, George?

Oh, well, I could leave it unmuted for a second. The dogs are freaking out just behind the scenes for the listeners. I'm muting a lot here at the beginning because we got a new fridge delivered this morning right about two minutes before we hit the record button. So there's literally somebody in my house, and my dogs do not like it.

What's your dog's name?

George?

Which one of the eight which.

The one that's barking right now, that's.

Maple and Hazel that are losing their mind right now. Skye's actually out in the backyard, so you can't hear her, and some are upstairs. Anyway, I digress.

I got a quick. I got a quick question for Maple and Hazel. Maple and Hazel, what do you guys think about the Taylor stage?

Yeah.

Oh, they love it. They said they love it.

Well, let them talk.

What stage are they in right now?

Really helping them get their. Get their mess. They're. They're amplified stage. They're getting ahead of us, guys. I'm sorry.

They're in.

Like, we gotta. Yeah, they didn't want to stop and have this halfway point.

They're like, what do you mean the Taylor's coming? I thought it was just the refrigerator delivery guy today.

Put him.

Prank him, John.

All right.

Anyway, I'll be here all week.

Do you have to?

Yeah, I'm gonna live in this Riverside.

As long as he makes it through Thanksgiving.

I don't know.

All right, chuckleheads, let's get this going. Okay, are we ready? So, Chris, I actually want to start with you because I would be so curious. When Loop marketing first came out, what were your first impressions of this new playbook? And then has anything shifted since then?

I hated the word marketing that was involved as it was described on stage. Like I think George has mentioned in the past, everything behind the. The labels made sense in terms of helping people understand what they should be trying to do right now to support this. This AI world we're living in. And I've only gone deeper in that direction. And I wasn't surprised that HubSpot finally came out with something as the go to leader of marketing best practices. And, you know, they. They had to do something because we were all having trouble keeping up and we knew the old ways were broken. So, you know, HubSpot had to do something. I just wish they wouldn't have attached that, that word marketing to it. Having said that, I think in organizations where marketing does own all of the communications with the customers everywhere, they're already doing most of this stuff. It makes more sense to them. They crush it because they have the jurisdiction and the authority internally to move all the pieces in the way that they need to move them in most organizations. That's not how it's going.

I would just love to hear a little bit more about what's your beef with the word marketing because you are being so exceptionally diplomatic right now and how you framed that. I. Chris, you're not going to get away with that with me. And it was very cute that you tried. So I want, I want the real feels holy field. What's the deal with marketing? Why do you hate what I do? Why are you personally attacking at me at nine o' clock on a Monday morning of Thanksgiving week?

I know pressure. It causes this disconnect for us to try and deal with the, the symptoms that is the, the label, the confusion that comes from applying marketing to this thing. Now we're, we're like, when I've heard you guys talk about it. Because that's where this is coming from. Like every episode so far about loop marketing. Like, I don't even get through the whole episode before I'm messaging George on Slack and I'm like, what the hell is going on? Like, what? I don't understand these words right now. How are we so off track? There's really smart people talking about this. And, and have you ever had those conversations with AI Especially now, but probably with some humans too. You feel like the conversation, maybe that initial prompt was clear. And then you move through the conversation and it's never fully like resonating and you're not getting the responses you want and you just can never get it on track. And then you look back at the prompt and you're like, oh, I understand. That's how the framing, like, we're not aligned on the framing of all this and that's why we've been having this disconnected conversation. That's how it's feeling for me. And the part that I struggle with is why the why behind this, this playbook. And every time it's mentioned, HubSpot looks like they're trying to build a playbook to support the product that they're selling. When for me, it very simply came from the execution of Inbound, was no longer working with SEO and all the traditional things that HubSpot had taught us to do. And the speed, like nobody could keep up with the speed. Yeah. Right. So this is, in my opinion, HubSpot's strategic response to those problems that their customers were having. Right. Of course they've already built the product to support this, but I was doing stuff all weekend in Google's workspace alone that is going to help me execute this Playbook. But that's where, if we could just adjust that framing and not the product driven focus of this conversation is where I've. Where I've struggled.

I can totally see that. Yeah. I mean, you know, if I'll just jump in, like if I put myself in HubSpot's shoes and I think we even mentioned that even when it comes up to, it feels like they're trying to utilize because like, Reddits are a huge thing now. And that's like a big point of contention for a lot of people. But I mean, I just go back to like, would I want to make the whole thing more expensive for truly everybody, even if somebody decides they just want to use CRM elements and that's it, or would I want to, you know, the amount of value that I'm deriving from it pay for that at a much reduced rate compared to solely human labor? Right. So, I mean, there's like a lot of those things. And I think if I was in HubSpot's shoes, like, my tool can do all these things to help people accomplish this faster, but it's just sometimes a little bit harder to get people on the same page of understanding how to use it to do this well and efficiently and fast. I totally understand that it feels very product focused because it is. It's trying to get people to use their product or something else in each of these steps to accelerate in a world where you have to do more to make better content with less.

Right.

Or better do better with. With the tools that are at your hands. Not even content, but just in general. Right. To produce more with less. So I totally understand that. I don't know, does that sound like. Do you. Are you jiving with that or does that make you want to scream little.

Column A, little column B?

Yeah, I think that's where like, I think in the last episode I took issue with the phrase, like, this is a playbook that is designed to teach you how to use AI to.

Is your position that the playbook is driven by the product?

Not at all.

Not at all.

Not at all. Because I need to be able to do these things with or Without HubSpot.

Correct.

Right.

Obviously they want you to use HubSpot, though.

And you can say that was true. The original inbound too, as well.

Yeah. I mean, the presentation of it is largely like most of the problem and the confusing parts that everybody's having. Right. Like the core of it. Right. And what I love about listening to you guys just. And anybody really talk about this topic is it helps me think through, like, okay, where are the pieces that are going wrong here? And I started playing with last week. This framing of which still aligns with what HubSpot is saying. It's just the way that they're saying it makes you focus on their product instead of the foundation, where it's like signals we have to get good at working with AI to signal capture, signal recognition, signal understanding at just this scale that we've never. We could never achieve by ourselves as humans. HubSpot is giving us the tools to do that. Nobody knows they exist or how or what to use with them. Where are the signals coming from? They're coming from conversations internally about when we figure things out as a business for ourselves and externally as we're con. As we're interacting with the market. And those things lead to the relationships that drive the value of the business. And if we could relate it to those things, I think we'll be in a much cleaner place to explain to people what's happening. And that's just where kind of my latest effort to try and simplify without reducing the complexity, I think is the challenge in most HubSpot explainer cases.

Max, how do you feel about all of that?

I'm trying to. I. I can't understand if Chris has a overall net positive or net negative view of loop marketing. And I'm trying to discern that through his words. And I'm having a hard time understanding it.

We could just ask him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Since you're here.

Yeah.

So I think it's the first rev ops framework they've come out with. Right. If that helps. Like, and so it's a net, like, if it were loop growth playbook, with which I've seen Dharmesh say in a LinkedIn post, call it those. Those words loop growth playbook, I think this would be landing much easier in a lot of cases because it is an operational framework. Right. So my net, it's a huge net positive in that this is a framework. If you were to forget about the words that HubSpot was saying about it, like anybody could follow. And so my beef is with the way it's Presented, which causes a lot of distracting conversation around it. Like in my opinion. And we lose the thread, we lose the why. Like that. The hack for me is if you decide to show up every day and create value, you are forced to innovate into the processes that are described in the loop marketing playbook. Because no human, unless you have like five customers, can show up every day at this rate with value, with content, with distribution, with measurement. Right. And then take the time to understand it all and evolve. Right. So it's. It's a net. It's a huge net positive in that is a playbook. Right. But when you assign it, I think it's. Last week was enlightening how the Taylor phase seemed to be that is all about how do you use like segmentation and like, how do you get your lists together, how do you understand the segments so that you can tailor. I think it's too late at that point. That's a part of express for me. There's an internal expression and an external expression in that the market is expressing to you they feel about you and your position and what the solution is you're solving. Right. And all of that starts to create signals and I need some structure here. Liz. Sorry, I'm gonna go. Just gonna go all over the place.

Yeah, I think I remember that. At least last week in Taylor, we were kind of talking about one of the things you want to have is ahead of time, set up and do your due diligence and know who these. These types of people are, you know, before you even start your message the first time. Right. But that if you've never done it before one time, you at least have to do it by here. Because you want to express who you are to certain people. Right. Would be the idea. At least that's like how I would envision it through the lens of, you know, utilizing the platform. Like me being a. I want to do as much as I possibly can in HubSpot and branch out from HubSpot when I have to, just to like consolidate tech stack for the purposes of integration hell and tech debt. You know, I'm always trying to look at it from the lens of how do I do it inside a HubSpot first. Right. So I think maybe that's where a lot of that comes up from. From me anyway. I'm always looking at it. How would I do this in HubSpot?

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Chris. Is your. Is your. Is so like, I think the, the thing, the. The thing that I've been saying this entire time is that it very much feels like loop marketing is a playbook. It's very isolated within marketing motion and not necessarily something that's all encompassing. You know, like the flywheel was.

Right.

But it sounds like your position is that it is all encompassing or am I understanding you incorrectly? Okay. So I want to understand that better. Right. Because it almost sounds like you're saying this is the evolution of the flywheel versus something that complements it.

No.

Oh, thank God. Okay.

Because we got through died.

I'm like, we guys, we put that to bed. Three episodes. If Chris had said yes, I would have been like, well, I'm going into a tunnel. It has been a great episode.

Anyway, Chris, the one thing he said is like, this is the very first, like rev ops, like playbook that they rev up there. I mean, I would.

You mentioned.

I would. I would say the flywheel kind of covered all that. I don't understand how this is more of revopsy than the flywheel.

So inbound as a strat as strategy of how to approach business, first and foremost, when I could give leaders in an organization, when they would agree to take the inbound certification, I would start there every time. Because that is like a culture shift. It's just the highest level strategy. Right. That you're going to apply. The flywheel is still like more strategic in nature, but it starts to like, guide what you actually have to do inside of the business and what you like, want at each at these very high level, three stages. This is operational in nature and it needs to operate at all three places of the flywheel. So as an example, like if we can rally around the signals, conversations and relationships. Right. And a lot of what I've been doing with with Value first lately is trying to externally focus all the decisions that we're making, the processes that we're building. Right. So express stage. There is conversations that need to be had internally and externally to create signals to understand our current relationships.

Can you define signals for me?

Yeah, I was going to say I don't know where.

I hear you and George say signals a lot. I don't know what we mean by signals.

Traditionally it could be an email open or a web visit.

So some sort of indication that someone is interested in something. Not necessarily your product or contact activity of some point, they're doing something that tells you some kind of story or action or whatever.

If they're an existing customer, it could.

Be indicates a shift towards a certain type of behavior, not necessarily buying correct.

Engagement on some level. Cool.

If you've been sleeping on the couch. There's been signals before that, Max. Just saying.

So now in a modern aspect, I think those are like mentions on Reddit, you know, social comments. Right. All these, this new area that AI can see in a way social listening never could. Right? Yeah. And that's coming through in all the chats and the whole AEO like perspective agenda is like this is what's behind that, I think. And those signals with the same people change throughout the flywheel if we're going to keep, keep to that. But I think throughout the life cycle of a customer, those, those change. Right. And in the ex. So in the express stage, you have the most control over that part of the loop in terms of we're having conversations to figure out what, who we want to be and what problems we're trying to solve and how we solve them. We are pinging that off of the, the market to make sure there's a fit. Right. To even understand which words to use. But they are involved. It's not just us deciding. Right. So that's, that's a conversation with ourselves. Let's say the next one, Taylor, is where we do all of these things and we understand relationships and the conversations on a one to one basis with individuals. Right. Then we move to amplify.

Wait, can you give me an example of like when you're, when you're saying like when we tailor, we do all the things and have one to one conversations with people. Like I need, I want like a hard. Not because I don't believe you. I'm just trying to understand it better. Right. Like what would be examples of that?

Sales conversations, specific like tailored social posts. Like if we've done all the work and we know that like our LinkedIn audience is this and it's like these demographics. Now we're going to try and fit a very tailored message to them and we're going to have everybody prepared to respond to the comments of individuals that, that come in there and those conversations like around that. Right.

So it's like putting a message out there. I'm not saying you're, you're saying that this is only just put out a LinkedIn post and see what people say. But it's more so putting a message out there and then understanding the conversations that come from it. When people bite, if you will, on.

The message and doing it at scale, would you say would be like having the ability to do multiple of those for multiple different either lines of business or types of buyer Persona, if you will.

This is where the new segments and segmentation in HubSpot enables this. Right?

That's.

Yeah, right. And as you move to amplify, it's the same signals, conversations, relationships with the entire market. Like a one to many approach. Like is it being amplified through others? It's not just us talking, having a specific conversation with individuals, it's other people talking about us at scale. Are the right things being said? Are the signals what they thought we would be? If so, then our relationship with the market is great and we're starting to get market share and drive more value. Lastly, evolve is having that conversation with the data. What signals are going to come out of, like when we sit down and start asking AI questions and bouncing that off of our internal teams, like is that, is that hitting or not? Is it surprising or not? And then us understanding, oh, it might be surprising. And are we going to change our try to adjust our product market fit? Like go back in the tank there. Do we have to adjust our messaging? Like, was there execution at anywhere in the process? Like the issue, instead of relying on these very high level KPIs like we usually have, like AI enables this scale of this conversation throughout to reveal these things and then human and AI work together to move in some direction.

Okay, so this, first of all, this has been. Hold that for one second. This has been amazing to be able to sit here and listen to this. And Max and Chad kind of pseudo interview, slash, have, have thoughts. Chris, you said something that I want to circle back around to is like if it was not loop marketing, but it was like Loop Rev Ops, which I hate that name too. But if we could name it something better, right? So I went in and you guys know from the last several episodes, I have my, literally my own project that I built to understand and think about loop marketing. I went in and asked it the question, Chris that you were proposing, like, what if this was for Rev Ops instead of marketing? And what's interesting is says first of all, yes, 100% exclamation mark. That's, that's how it started. To answer this question said, if you zoom out, loop marketing or if you zoom out loop is not really marketing. It's the way for a business to learn in public, personalize at scale, distribute that work and continuously improve. And it literally goes in to say how, how Loop changes when it becomes Loop Rev Ops Express becomes how does our entire revenue engine think, speak and decide? Taylor becomes how do we personalize every interaction across every team based on shared data and context? Amplify becomes how do we coordinate channels, humans and Systems so the best stuff reaches more of the right people and evolve becomes how do we learn as one revenue system and fix the right things in the right order? Instead of loop marketing equaling content and campaigns, you get loop rev ops equals strategy systems and behaviors across marketing, sales, CS ops, finance, and product, all tied to revenue and retention.

I gotta be honest, guys. I'm watching Max make so many faces right now, and I need to know what's happening.

I mean, we can make it whatever we want it to be like. And you know what?

Yeah.

As someone who absolutely did that with Inbound, I think I'm fine with it. Right. I think you can interpret these however you want. The problem is that HubSpot put this out here as a marketing playbook to get you to use AI. You know what I mean? And we can't change that.

Right.

And is there an argument that maybe that's needed? Yes. Do marketers exist?

Yes.

Does AI exist as tools they can use? Yes. Is it super freaking confusing to, like, figure out how to make sense of all this stuff? Yes. Do we have to make every strategy cover every single part of the equation like inbound does? No. But if we want to interpret that way, can we? Yeah, totally. It's a free country. We could do whatever we want. Right.

There's a difference between King.

I do like this idea. I do like this idea of taking these ideas of express and tailor and amplify and evolve. And I think there is an argument in there that you could apply that to a lot more areas of your business and not just like, marketing.

Right.

For example, I like to think in terms of the flywheel. Right. And something that I always told people was like, listen, this is how you get it.

Right?

People have to somehow find you because not everyone's going to know you exist. That's just the nature of physics. Right? They gotta find you somehow, and then at some point, you gotta have a conversation with them, and then they become a customer and you gotta keep them happy.

Right.

You gotta do at least those three things. How you do those three things is, is where the magic is. Right? And there's a lot of really good ways to do those things. There's a lot of really bad ways to do those things. Chris, I can see your argument that you could even, like, you know, look at one of those chunks of the flywheel and, and, and. And take these three, these four words. Express, tailor, amplify, and evolve. Right. And apply it to any of those things. I do. Right. And you know what?

This.

This is the reason I think this community is so great because we can take these ideas and frameworks and structures that HubSpot puts out there. We could look at what they think it is at face value. Remember at the beginning we all thought that Inbound was just getting an ebook, putting it behind a landing page, and then hopefully and emailing people enough that they go and do it and then we send them over to sales. That's originally what they told us that it was. But as we all did that, we kind of realized that's not really the thing that makes it really great. Right. The thing that makes it really great is really good content and educating people and like taking it to this whole different level. Right. And like the flywheel never really reflected that. The flywheel was just kind of like, oh, hey, customer success in sales is kind of important or is kind of important too. So let's kind of loop it into the. Not loop it, but let's bring it into the kind of the fold of like this entire business strategy. Right. But then everyone had their own ways of doing like each one of those things. I think this is a cool way of looking at it. Personally, I like this approach.

Chris, what's an efficiency optimizer? It sounds like what loop is is just like let's look at something and try and bring in all the efficiencies that we possibly can and hyper. Personalize hyper, you know, like really make it the best that we could possibly make it and continually and iteratively improve over time. Absolutely.

And the reason like the word marketing is the struggle is because I was brought into organizations as the person that's going to build out a great customer experience and a new digital marketing infrastructure that did not exist before. But I was always the marketing guy as I did that. And I would try to force feed HubSpot into the organization because I knew if I could get HubSpot adoption, it would naturally solve for some, some desiloing of the organization. It didn't work out well. And at the time I didn't have the language of revops. I also didn't have control over the CRM or the customer data. So it was this thing where, okay, marketing is going to go make digital transformation happen without any of the jurisdiction needed to change this layer. What I hear when I hear loop marketing playbook in most organizations, okay, go, go ahead and do that marketing, we'll be here when it's ready. And it's like, no, we need all of our subject matter experts, all of the people involved in creating the signals from the Conversations that they're already having. This is like signals in a. In a weekly meeting where we're talking to our team versus signals from the call transcript coming in and AI telling us what the signals are. Right. If we keep doing the weekly meetings, we're never going to keep up. Right. And this is where I understand the need to align it with the HubSpot product. Because you can do all this stuff with HubSpot, but we're still having trouble getting teams putting their call transcripts in HubSpot.

Well, I mean, I think a lot of times, and you know, maybe you guys have had different experiences with this, but like even just getting a whole team utilizing Marketing Hub, like at. At the whole thing, like people like use forms and maybe I put the cookie on my WordPress website, maybe I made a list and a couple of things, you know, and like campaign. Yeah, please. Then that's like all they do. Right. So. And then.

But like, all we need is leads, Chad.

Yeah, because all you need is leads. Just lead me, you know, and lead me to the sale.

Right.

That's all they want. But I think get. So framing it as loop marketing and applying a framework to trying to get people to fully utilize Marketing Hub, now that it really is much more extensive than it ever has been. I understand why. I think it's cool to look at it from the perspective of you could apply this to any kind of process.

And like, that reminded me of the struggle internally was they didn't know what else to ask me for besides more leads. Yeah, right. Even though I was very clearly, when I would come out of any conversation, why I was brought in, I knew the software, the tools, how all the digital worked to enable like the scale that was being asked for. Right. And nobody asked for, hey, can you help us get more efficient with quotes? Because it takes three to four weeks. Yeah, right. That's why I struggle with marketing ops and sales ops and rev ops. Like those three things. Like we need just ops. We need ops behind all this. We need a customer team and we need a finance team. And that's it.

Yeah, it's. It's hard when your organization starts to get bigger, right. Because you need somebody to do the marketing plumbing and somebody to do the sales plumbing. And if you have a SaaS product, somebody to do the like, data infrastructure plumbing back to the CRM to be able to like, understand user intent and like, that's a lot of technical work at a deep level at some points to really make that jive. But then somebody who understands the whole thing all the way through. Because like when people, people just know they need more revenue, right? Like business leaders are like, I'm a business leader, I need revenue because I'm the CRO and that's like my job and I make sure we hit the number, right. And. But to like care about the customer through that journey, which is the inbound methodology, and apply this efficiency multiplier to each of those segments while connecting the handoffs is the rev ops piece. And it's so important to get those handoffs and like define who owns all of those pieces and make it as painless as possible.

Right.

And that's like, I think the hard part for a lot of organizations is having somebody who can keep that whole mega journey from, you know, like at RBP they always used to say from lead to Google review. Right? But like basically from lead all the way to evangelist customer. Right? That's the whole journey where they're bringing you more people all the way around. The flywheel and you know, like the flywheel is not dead, boys and girls.

Right?

Yeah. Do you know what this reminds me of a lot? Remember when Attract, Engage and delight came out and you know, they were, they were kind of in that awkward place where they were struggling of like using that graphic that they also had kind of used to say marketing sales in service and like CRM was like the dot in the middle. Right?

Right.

And they were, they were fighting this battle of like, oh well, we use this flywheel to, to illustrate this idea of attract, engage and delight. And what happened is it made it sound like attract was marketing job, sales job was engage. And then you know, the, the service team's job was delighted. Right. And like, is there an argument to say that like maybe kind of like that's like a little bit true? Sure. But the point that they made was that everybody marketing, sales, service all have a, all have a responsibility to attract, engage and delight in their own way. Right. Like for example, you can create delightful marketing. Right? Like there's a, you know, you can, you know, just because someone becomes a customer doesn't mean marketing all of a sudden stops talking to them and they did their job. Right. Like marketing can continue to engage and delight those customers. They do it through a number of different ways. Whether it's, you know, switching the messaging away from, you know, content that's trying to sell versus content that's trying to, you know, educate people to get the most out of this brand new shiny toy that they have. Right. Or you know, delighting people by doing non shady things. Like when someone unsubscribes, actually unsubscribe, like, you know, things of that nature. And I think sales is the same way. Like you could delight people in sales by not having a scummy sales process and ensuring there's a really great handoff over to, you know, support and things like that. Right. And you know what, it almost kind of sounds like we're, we're birthing here. I think could be a community led movement of us reclaiming the loop. And basically is this the formation of loop Inbound at this very moment?

Right. I might have something to say about. Listen, the next episode.

Listen. The community could take this and make it what it should have always been and say, how do you loop? I think loop and attract is very much like if we were to draw the loop around the attract phase, that's very much what this playbook is. Right. But like, how does sales apply the loop? How does service apply the loop? How do you engage with the loop? How do you delight with the loop? I think there's. You could, you could take these stages and I think we could come up with our own. You know, what are the steps in each one of these, like micro stages.

Right.

To basically really help you pump that flywheel using this four piece framework for each one of those stages. Right. And you could probably apply it, you know, across an entire business, I'm sure. Right. But this first version that HubSpot came out with, it's. It wasn't built for that. Right. It was built for marketing.

Right.

Which is fine because let's not forget Inbound was originally built for marketing too.

I love to go. I love how with one minute to go, Max is like, I'm just gonna say, like, let's start a revolution. No big deal.

Maybe that might be what you need to do. We need to take all this anger and confusion and turn it and. And reclaim it.

Mission accomplished.

Typically speaking, we end Maximus.

No, it's okay.

Chris said mission accomplished. And so I wanted to know if we agreed on this or if he thinks I'm crazy pants.

We need to help Pub spot do this better or do it better on their behalf.

I mean, let's be honest. And then, Liz, you can, you can change the way that we're ending this because I, I got a couple things. One, this has been fascinating to sit here and listen to this conversation. Just. I'm kind of glad the refrigerator guy came when he did. And I was able to be quiet and just listen to this. Chris, will you come back after we do the next two stages, and you get a chance to listen to the conversations we have during that.

I would love to.

Okay, beautiful. We'll plan on that. So, like, that's probably going to be. Let's see. Let's. Let's say we do what we've done before, where it's like two episodes per actual stage to get through it.

We'll see you in late 2027.

Let's just say maybe five weeks from now. Right. Like, well, there's holidays and stuff, so it might be more weeks than that. So let's plan on you coming back and. And doing this again because I absolutely love this conversation, but I love this idea of capturing this running and helping HubSpot with the like, listen, why have we done four episodes on the first two now? Five episodes on the first two stages? Because HubSpot needs help.

Because it also took us two episodes just to talk about loop marketing.

Yeah, humans need help.

Right?

So let's go ahead and kick us out of here and. And let's roll with this.

So normally.

Let me share my screen.

Wait, what?

Oh, hold on.

What are you doing?

Look at it. It's beautiful.

Oh, my God.

Look at that. Oh, dude, look at that grouping at every stage, baby, is the hydron collider of it. Prank them, John.

Love that. That's beautiful.

Amazing.

All right, gross. Has everyone said their piece, or do we need to continue talking? Am I allowed to end the show?

I think we need to get put on hiatus. Get us out of here.

Get us out of here, Chris.

Normally I ask George to help us land the pit plane, but I want to ask you to do that today if you want to leave our listeners with one thing they need to remember from today's conversation. What should it be and why?

You are already having all of the conversations you need to be having to support this playbook. You just have to apply what the playbook is suggesting. Do those things so that AI and HubSpot and whatever system you're using can help you understand what's actually happening in those conversations at scale.

Okay, Hub Heroes, we've reached the end of another episode. Will Lord Lack continue to loom over the community, or will we be able to defeat him in the next episode of the Hub Heroes podcast? Make sure you tune in and find out in the next episode. Episode. Make sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest episodes and become part of the League of Heroes. FYI, if you're part of the League of Heroes, you'll get the show notes right in your inbox and they come with some hidden power up potential as well. Make sure you share this podcast with a friend, leave a review if you like what you're listening to, and use the hashtag Hub Heroes Podcast on any of the stuff socials and let us know what strategy conversation you'd like to listen into next. Until next time, when we meet and combine our forces, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble human. And of course, always be looking for a way to be someone's hero.