Mastering Your Fear: A Guide to Understanding and Harnessing Your Emotional GPS

Here's the other thing that I need to unpack is that pain we always, many times, I'm trying to stay away from absolutes on this. We many times paint pain as bad, but pain isn't actually always bad. Many times pain is where it equals the most growth in our life. So this thing about fear, and it's good because we're trying to not lean into pain because we want to be comfortable. Now, I want you to hear the words that just came out, fear and pain and comfort. Because. Because the deep end of the pool that I need to unpack is you use the words manage your demons. Manage your demons. And I want everybody listening to this podcast to realize that generational demons is a real thing. If your grandpappy or your grandma had an issue with xyz, more than likely your parents have a problem with xyz, more than likely you're going to have a problem with xyz unless you take off the blinders. Unless you see those people that you're supposed to admire, supposed to respect and see them for who they are in all of their traits, and then decide to, and this is a word that we're using a lot this episode, choose which ones to be and which ones not to be. And by the way, if you focus on I'm never going to be that. I'm never going to be that. You're probably going to be that.

Welcome back to another episode of beyond your default. I am Liz Mourad, and as always, I am joined by George B. Thomas. George, how are you today?

I'm doing absolutely wonderful. I could say that I'm fearful of this episode, but I am not fearful of this episode. I'm actually interested and excited to see where we go. I know there's you and me and there's this topic, and I also know that I feel like I have turned myself into a person who may think about fear a little bit differently, a little bit weirdly. But I'm excited to see where we go as a duo on this topic.

I'm really excited about this as well. And one of the things I am going to say, though, and I would encourage you and our listeners to think about it this way. Even if you think about something differently, I would say let's make it a beyond your default rule that we don't pass judgment on how we interpret and experience the world. None of us do things weirdly when it comes to that perspective. Right? We're all just showing up every single day with our own unique fingerprint of experiences, perspectives, point of views. I'm in the same boat as you though. I'm very interested to see where today's conversation goes. And as you mentioned or teased a bit, we're going to be talking quite a bit about fear today. Fear is something that has come up numerous times throughout our by the way, first 10 episodes, we're recording our 11 today. How does that feel?

It's crazy. Time flies.

I love it. But over the past 10 episodes, fear is something that has come up as a cause, as an effect, as a looming little boogeyman. But I think the thing we have to keep in mind and let's start setting the table for today's conversation, right? Everyone has a different relationship with the concept of fear. And our own lived experiences shape what kind of role it plays in our lives. Whether that's big or small, insidious and everywhere are only showing up in pockets, specific pockets of our lives. But regardless of where on the spectrum we fall with fear, the one thing all we humans have in common is that fear can all too easily become an unchecked destructive force if we're not careful. The challenge, of course, is that in the heat of those moments, imagined fears can become all too real. They can feel real even if they aren't real. But fear doesn't come from nowhere, right? We're not just sitting here torturing ourselves. We learn to be afraid throughout our lives, right or wrong, through life's trials and tribulations. There's also millennia of biological programming as humans and in some cases people experience real life traumas that can take years to work through and dep program. And this is something we are going to be digging into a bit today. Is that how people end up in a space where fear can sometimes disrupt or in other areas control their lives? It's a nuanced discussion. It's not always as straightforward. So I want to be clear to the listeners today this is going to be a nuanced discussion that takes into account different ways in which we end up with fear boogeymen haunting our lives. Because before you know it, those moments of crippling doubt, the paralyzing anxiety, it can transition like lightning from temporary to something that puts a self destructive halt a stop in our lives. And that's where we're going to begin our conversation today. Because fear is the thing that confines us in a prison of the devil. We know that default state that we're always trying to get out of so we can truly live. So George, I want to open up today's conversation by asking You a question. When was the last time you were really afraid? And when I say really afraid, I mean in a way that made you potentially self sad sabotage or come to a complete halt mentally?

So I do want to answer the question, but I do want to be careful too, because as I was kind of listening to Wax Poetic on the intro, my brain was fighting what I was hearing. And not that any of it was wrong, but I literally was like, why are we giving it as much power as we're giving it? Why does it have to be years? Why can't it be months when we're even working through like trauma? Why do we allow fear to be this thing that we put on replay in our lives versus like dealing with it and then dismissing it? I'm sure we'll talk about that later. Liz, here's the thing. There are again, it's really weird, but there are a few times in my life that I can say I was fearful to this line of self sabotage or complete paralysis. Now what I will tell you is there are times in my childhood with the way that I grew up that I can say that I was, you know, paralyzed with fear. Whether it be, you know, getting in a fight with a bully and being afraid because I didn't actually, even at a young age, I didn't want to damage anybody. I didn't want to hurt anybody. But to have to stand up for yourself and to get in those mix were actually fearful for me even kind of understanding that the men in my life, it was the walk it off, brush it off, like, don't be a pansy, like, and I love both of you know, my father figures and my grandparents, but it was just a different. It was a different day and age than we live in now. And like, life was tough. We lived through kind of a tough life. And so there were times when I was younger that I was fearful. Heck, even when I was married, you know, there was a time in my life where I took action that I shouldn't have taken out of anger. And I was literally afraid that I was going to lose everything that I had in that moment in time. And that was paralyzing and fearful. And I'm talking about full body fear. But these things, the way that I grew up, the way that I kind of reached a point in time where I was like, oh, enough is enough. After that, it's really hard to kind of go into a certain thing, but I was able to think about this. I was able to like, okay, I've got to force myself to think about this. And I think one of the things that I want to unpack is it was very hard to think about this because it was uncomfortable in bringing back up that fear, to actually understand it and relive it, to be able to. To talk about it. Now, the first thing I want to do, Liz, is I actually want to break down the two ways that you went in this question. It sounded like one question. It actually was very sneaky. It was two questions because you said to a degree that resulted in self sabotage or complete paralysis, which is, by the way, two totally different things. Now on the self sabotage, what I want to share is it depends on who you ask and what I mean by that is there was a time when I worked for Marcus Sheridan at Sales line and we got acquired by Impact brand and design company that you used to work for. Company that I used to work for.

That's how we met.

That's how we met. And here's the funny thing is I went from a team of four to like a team of over 45. And I was very uncomfortable. And I would even say I was fearful in where I fit into that scenario. And I jumped ship. I waited three months, I made sure my team got onboarded properly and I jumped ship. Now, can I say that I was self sabotaging myself at that moment? It's very hard for me to tell myself that, but maybe. But I know for sure there were several human beings that thought, he's self sabotaging the success that he could have in these walls. I'm fine with that. And I may have done that, but I was still able to grow even past or through if it was self sabotage. The other thing that I want to jump in here with is this complete paralysis. And there was a time where I was like, yeah, that's probably the most scared I've been in a long time. And it was on a family vacation, believe it or not. We had gone to Tennessee. We had rented a cabin in the mountains of Tennessee and we went to go do this local attraction. The only problem is to get to this local attraction, you had to do this ski lift up this mountain. And now as a child, here's what's funny. I did ski lifts all the time because I skied, but there was snow and there was this false sense of security if I fell off the lift, like the snow would. Whatever. The older I get, the more I realize if I fall, it's gonna hurt. And I'm deathly afraid of heights, like to a extreme. And we'll probably talk More about this and roller coasters and different things in life. But we're on this family vacation and we had to do this ski lift to get up to the actual thing. And the line was long. And I think this is why it sunk in my brain because it took so long for us to get get through the line that I was just like sweating the whole time of like, I gotta get on this thing. And there were ones that were like, there was a bar that held you in and then there ones that you could sit in and close the door. And I was like, well, I'm definitely going in one that you can close the door because that's a little bit more secure. But the one with the bar, heck no. And here's what I think allowed my fear to be even more as I knew that if I chickened out, I could have hopped in like a vehicle and they were driving some people up the mountain. But, like, I didn't want to look like a chicken in front of my kids, even though my kids knew I was scared as all get out. So I did it. But then when we got up to the main attraction, what's fun is it was actually like this thing where you could do things in the trees. And so I went through this massive fear factor of getting on the ski lift to then be in the middle of these like boarded bridges looking down at the ground and was like, I can't move right now. My body was frozen out of the fear of heights. Now I was able to push through it and get through, but like, I had to juke my brain. Like I had to fake myself out and not look down, but just look like, you know, almost like a foot and a half, two foot in front of me where I couldn't see through the boards. And it looked like it was a solid walkway. And so like there's a couple things in there. One, I had to fake myself out. That's going to be an interesting conversation as we move forward. Perception of others and yourself to if you are self sabotaging is going to be an interesting conversation. But those are definitely two pieces where I was able to tie back my life to kind of this question. But again, that doesn't happen that much anymore because of some things that I have purposely put in place to try to navigate and move through. Things that could come back up, could replay through my brain, could continue to be things that would drive fear in my life.

I want to dig more deeply into what you were just talking about. You made a couple of comments at the start about the longevity of fear, how long it takes to move through it, depending on certain backgrounds, we'll definitely get to that. But for right now, I want to stick to this point because you've brought us up to this interesting juncture where I just want to understand now, how do you define your relationship with fear in your life? What does it look like now?

Yeah, so I'm always battling, and I do feel like it's a battle, but I'm always battling to put it in its place. And there's this really cool quote. So Seneca the Younger was a stoic, and that's probably a whole nother conversation that we should have on a podcast at some point of stoicism. But there's this quote. We suffer more often in imagination than in reality, and I love that because fear is real. I would not sit here on a podcast and say it's not real, like, it is a real thing. But most times the stories we internalize, they're not. So there's the thing that happens which, you know, it induces anxiety and it induces stress, the fear. Right. But then it's the story that we tell ourselves about that moment, or it's the stories that we tell ourselves leading up to that moment that many times, again, are just internalized stories. Not necessarily what did happen or what will happen. Like, we've all heard that story of, like, somebody comes in, robs a store, and they get the feedback. Dude was 6, 5 XYZ, ABC, and then come to find out he was, like, 5 foot 4. But, like, people just don't remember, like, the right stuff when it happens. And so most fear, I've realized, especially in my life, I'm speaking of myself right now. Most fear is a moment in time, but it's not a reality that should live on forever. And again, we'll dig into that later, because there's literally a saying that I have embraced that you either love or hate, by the way, because I've actually asked people, when I say this, does it unlock your brain, or do you think this sucks?

Let's go ahead and talk about it. Let's go ahead and share it. That's where I was going next. Let's talk about it.

Well, before we do that, though, I want to draw the line because I want people to realize they have a choice. And in this episode, I definitely want to talk about good fear and I want to talk about bad fear. Because usually fear is just looked at as, like, it's potentially a negative thing, but there are good ways to harness it. And there's bad ways to let it be in your life. So I definitely want to talk about that. But one of the things that I have kind of drawn a line in is I try. I try. Key word here. Try. Because I could say, I do this. Listen. Absolutes are probably not a good thing when you're talking about emotions in life. But I try to refuse to listen to the voice of fear. My kids know I hate roller coasters. I hate roller coasters. Again, it's the fear of heights. But I've pushed myself multiple times to get on roller coasters, to push my brain out of the fact that I'm going to die if I sit in that seat. And I don't die, by the way. I always end up at the end. I always get off. Everybody's, like, laughing and having fun, and I'm like, whoo. Victory. I just did that. But that's the thing. If it's this battle internally that I have to not listen to the voice of fear and I have to confront it, I have to face it, and I have to attack it. And what I would say for the listeners is, you can have those choices to, like, this thing makes me fearful. Snakes, spiders, heights, whatever it is historical trauma. Again, we'll get into that later. You have the choice to confront it, face it, and attack it and figure out a plan to get after it. Now, diving into the saying that works for me but might not work for everybody is this idea of the word fear itself, F E A R. And for me, what this equals and what I've played in my brain to help me get past this. Because, by the way, I used to be afraid to get on stage. I was afraid to start my first podcast. I was afraid to step in front of a camera. Like, I have had fearful things that I've had to battle through. I've been afraid to die, by the way, but I don't want to go in. Like, I don't want to make this that heavy of a story. But, like, I have literally been afraid. Like, I'm gonna die. I'm. I'm going to die today. But what I want the listeners to know is fear. F E A R for me, I've internalized, and it's a thing that I'll put in repeat in my brain when I find that anxiety showing up, when I find that fear showing up, when I find any emotion that is kind of directly related to this thing that we historically call fear or, like, a negative energy, and that's false evidence appearing real. Because here's the thing most times, especially in my life, I've never feared things in the past. I've always feared things as they were coming up or as I was going through them. Like microseconds before or like in Tennessee, what felt like five hours to get through line to get on the ski lift. It's only in the things that are coming that I am fearful, other than, by the way, my wife and kids love to scare me. But there's a difference between shock and scaring than what I'm talking about today. And that's fear that is disabling you in life, that is keeping you from going in the directions that you need to go.

I love that. You know, when I'm thinking about this though, this is where I think we might have a good opportunity to slide back into some of the conversation that you started earlier about how long does it actually take to work through some of this? Could this be months versus years? And this is where, George, you and I are going to have to diverge. In some cases it's years, it's simply not months. And here's why. This is actually an area I have struggled with throughout most of my life. And I say that with the knowledge that. Well, not knowledge, it's fact. I'm turning 41 next month, so this is, hey, there you go, you know, whatever. And I'll just, you know, you've always been radically candid with our audience, so I'll do the same. I grew up in a very physically, verbally abusive household with my mother. She was an incredibly beautiful and intelligent woman who just could never manage her own demons. And I was her only child. And it's just, that's how that, that played out. And it was something that echo in different ways as I grew up and throughout my entire life. And here's where it gets a little bit tricky. When you are working through that kind of trauma, you can all too easily be going through the motions, right? I was seeing a therapist, I was seeing a trauma counselor. These were present forces throughout my life, both thanks to my dad and then just also personally as I was governing it throughout my life. But often we do not realize when you're coming from a trauma based background, what the implications are going to be. Because every single person is unique. There are some people who are incredibly resilient and they're able to move through these things with a little bit more ease. There are folks like myself where it actually took me years to actually understand how it was influencing my life. And the reason being is this is that there's always that joke, right? The first step is admitting we have a problem. Sometimes we don't understand the implications of those problems. So if we want to take this even a step further. I have been working through and seeing marked progress throughout my life as I've made the choice to do the work, embrace counseling, really try to move through this so I can break what is a generational cycle in my family. Like, my mother didn't just end up that way. And I decided, like, that's not who I'm going to be. This isn't just about fixing myself. It's about changing the story of my family going forward. I always thought that was something in the past until very recently I found out I was in an abusive relationship again. And so something that was very much the past suddenly became the present. And so a new fear emerged. Oh my God. Even, even when I'm doing the work, am I doomed? And that's where we get into these interesting little narratives, right? And again, my story is unique. The stories of our listeners are unique. But sometimes we need to admit we have a problem. But sometimes we need to be a bit more open minded about what that problem is because these challenges tend to leak. These fears tend to manifest in different ways. And you bring up a good point, by the way, that I want to point out. We have a tendency to overinflate the importance of fear in our lives. But I think we also tend to forget that fear is an important feeling. Like we, we demonize it to the point of, like, if you feel any kind of fear ever, that is bad. No, fear is what keeps us from dying or getting eaten by dinosaurs. Like, that's the whole reason fear exists, right? It is meant to keep us from getting killed or to repeat something that has caused us pain in the past. We're trying to protect ourselves. That's where this fear comes from. But we have to understand, A, that if we, we have these challenges in our lives and B, we have to acknowledge it's kind of like when we look at clients who come to work with us, right, George? It is so important that they don't know what they don't know. And they know it. Like, that's why you show up to work with consultants like us. The same thing is true in terms of a healing path when it comes to fear and trauma. Because at some point you have to make a choice about who you're going to be. And this is where I do start to fall in line with you a little bit, George. I disagree that we can simply say, by the way, this isn't to say that you were implying that. Well, just go see your therapist in a few months. Bada bing, bada boom. Fear's gone. I think it's just a bit more of a winding path because depending on someone's history, you don't know how windy that path is going to get. However, I think at some point we all have to make a choice about who we're going to be. And you have to make a choice to run at those walls full speed ahead and say, okay, if this counselor isn't working, why isn't it working? Why does this keep showing up, being brutally honest with ourselves about how these things are manifesting in our lives? Because that was the thing that I controlled, that I ignored for a really long time. I ignored the red flags. I ignored the fact that I was repeating these same cycles. Like, here's the unsexy thing that I'll share with you and our listeners, George. It is something I've said only to a few people. I can sit here and be devastated that I ended up in an abusive relationship, but I walked into it and I thought that was o. And what does that say about the mindset I showed up with? So that's where I think we have to start having these conversations, is that it gets a little bit tricky. But I think to your point, fear isn't always bad. Fear is like we would like to not explode or get eaten as cavemen, right?

Yeah. It's funny, you just served up a whole plate of like. And now I need to unpack some of that because my brain was going absolutely nuts.

Nuts.

So. And I'm gonna start at like the kind of light hearted and funny stuff and then I'm gonna get into the serious stuff. Listen, there are no more dinosaurs or saber toothed tigers in the world. Okay? So like that part of your brain at some point can be put to bait. Now, do I know that some of the listeners might live in Detroit, New York City, Boston, whatever. And there is a different type of something that you have to pay attention to for safety. Absolutely.

Saber tooths. But they do crimes.

Do I understand that? Heck, even in my own little town, in my own little house, that I have people who have fears of people being the wrong kind of people and doing the wrong kind of things. Absolutely. Like I have to understand that. But there is no dinosaurs, there are no saber tooth tigers. And so at some point this should be a switch that just flicks on and quickly off when you can feel that you might Be in a scenario or surrounding in which you need to pay attention. Attention to that. Now, here's the other thing that I need to unpack, is that pain we always. Or many times, I'm trying to stay away from absolutes on this. We many times paint pain as bad, but pain isn't actually always bad. Many times pain is where it equals the most growth in our life. So this thing about fear, and it's good because we're trying to not lean into pain because we want to be comfortable. Now, I want you to hear the words that just came out, fear and pain and comfort. Because the deep end of the pool that I need to unpack is you use the words manage your demons. Manage your demons. And I want everybody listening to this podcast to realize that generational demons is a real thing. If your grandpappy or your grandma had an issue with xyz, more than likely your parents have a problem with xyz, more than likely you're going to have a problem with XYZ unless you take off the blinders. Unless you see those people that you're supposed to admire, supposed to respect and see them for who they are in all of their traits, and then decide to. And this is a word that we're using a lot this episode, choose which ones to be and which ones not to be. And by the way, if you focus on I'm never going to be that, I'm never going to be that, you're probably going to be that. That instead of focusing on what you don't want to be out of the mix, you need to focus on what you do want to be, which is the negative of what you don't want to be. Because we are what we focus on. We are what we focus on. Okay, now here's the thing, and I'm sure I'm banging into, like, possible other podcast episodes, but, Liz, you even mentioned, you know, a therapist. I think going to therapy is great. If you need somebody to talk to, a therapist, your pastor, whoever, my best friend that you can actually trust is great. But here's the crux of the problem. Many people aren't managing those demons at all. They're walking around with blinders on. Many of them are just blatantly ignoring them. Some people are working on them. But one thing that I see that a lot of folks don't do is they're not replacing them. I'll take a book out of, like, if you're trying to quit smoking, what do they tell you to do? Replace it with something else. My father Actually replaced it with sunflower seeds. I've seen people replace it with carrots. I've seen people replace it with something else. That trauma, those historical demons, the thing that you're trying to not be or get away from. What are you taking in your life and saying? When I feel this way, I'm going to replace it with this. When I want to act this way, I'm going to replace it with this. And here's the thing. And then I'll just. We can move forward from this. But I totally had to unpack these things. Things. The reason that I was able to recycle. Recycle, Recycle. Youth, fear. Until it actually got me to a point in as an adult, that I made a really bad decision out of anger was because I was comfortable in that place. I was comfortable in anger. We gotta push against. Because again, we talked about there's good fear, there's bad fear. We're going to talk about that. There's good comfort and there's negative comfort. And sometimes we're more than willing to be like pigs in mud and just sit in what is our negative comfort. Because it's comfortable and it's hard.

It's not necessarily that it's comfortable. Let's dig into this a little bit here because you brought up a number of good points and things that I feel like you articulated better than I could. Let's go back to a couple of things. Number one, it's not comfortable, it's safe, and it's no.

Yes.

Think about the book Atomic Habits that I'm sure a lot of our listeners have read, because that's a lot of the type of audience that we speak with. It's all about the known neural pathways. It's the path of least resistance. It's the known. And when we think about it, particularly from the trauma perspective, knowns, even when they're terrible, are safer than something unknown. However, the big light bulb moment in my life is something that you just touched upon. What made this change? When I realized I have a choice. I'm either gonna let my trauma define me and let it be the thing where I'm always like. But this is a thing that happened to me and I wasn't necessarily going around and like advertising. This is what happened to me. This is my childhood. This was my upbringing. This were. No. At some point you have to make the decision to put it behind you. At some point you have to decide you're the artist behind your own masterpiece and accept that you are the one in charge of Your life and life is not happening to you. There are going to be circumstances outside your control. Some of them excruciatingly painful, last for years. Maybe it's just a one momentary trauma thing, but at some point, you have to make the choice to move forward. But I love what you said about the pain piece and how sometimes pain can be good. There's this incredible video that I will put in the show notes for this. And there is a rabbi who talks about lobster. I think I've shared this with you, George. Lobsters. I think a lot of people think their shell grows with them as they get older. And that's actually not the case. Their shells are very rigid. So periodically throughout their lives, they'll start feeling a lot of pain. And that pain, pain is a signal to them. I love lobsters. Thank you for being a literal metaphor for growth. They then go under a rock, hulk through their shell and grow a new one. And the rabbi in this video talks about the fact, thank goodness those lobsters aren't humans, because the moment it would start feeling pain, we would ship it off to a hospital, give it a bunch of Vicodin, a Percocet, and treat the pain as a negative instead of being like, my dude, you just need to go under a rock and bust through. It's temporary, it's painful, but you will be fine. The point that we're making here, and I love that you brought it back to this, is that I say this as someone who devotes a lot of time, energy, money, volunteer hours to causes that are rooted in my upbringing. And at some point, y', all, we make a choice about who we're going to be. We make the choice about whether or not we're going to let these things define us. Are we always going to be the people who say, but this thing happened to me, and I'm not trying to diminish what has happened to other people. But at some point, we make the choice about what defines us and what doesn't. Now, George, I want pivot the conversation here momentarily. You said to me once something that I want to dig into a little bit more. You said to me that when you succumb to your fear, you're choosing your head over your heart. What does that mean?

Yeah, so it's interesting. I don't think I've ever been fearful in the middle to lower part of my body. Body. It's always like neck up where I feel like fear lives for me.

Did you peek at the chart we're going to talk about later?

So the chart was very interesting. Me, I did peek at it. I actually had a holy crap moment because. And by the way, what Liz is talking about is we're going to talk about a chart like where anxiety shows up, where fear shows up, like on a body level. And so I always felt like. But I didn't really have an eloquent way to show it until this podcast in the show notes that people can go to to is I always just felt like it was like the top of my chest to my head is where fear would always live and it would never get down into my heart or my core. And so, Liz, when I talk about this, though, where I go with that is I know that my heart, my core, I have worked really hard to manufacture that as the creative system of love. It is where the cylinders are going full bore to this principle of life that I believe in. That is love yourself, love others, put love into the world. You reap what you're so, so, so love, like kindness. And that's so bundled up in what I would call the middle chest and heart area that I always kind of felt like fear couldn't get there. This is not your home. Your home is up there in the head. That is like talking to yourself that has the negative narrative going on. And I feel like many times as I've older, my brain, my head has been the last frontier that I have had to conquer. Because I know if I can conquer my brain, if I can conquer my fears, if I can conquer that inner voice, now all of a sudden, I can get real good at keeping myself accountable, going for those walks, not allowing negative talk, doing actual, like headspace meditation type things, building an actual dope routine that one can be proud of, of understand, shutting the door to negative fear, opening the door to good fear, if I can tame that frontier. And so the saying for me was always just this thing of like, there's one place in my body where fear exists and that I right now would say it calls its home. And that is my brain, my head. I never go, oh, shoot, my fingers are scared right now. Now. Oh my gosh, my ankle. My ankle is scared right now.

Like, no, my right metatarsal is terrified.

Yeah, right now. That's not what happens, right? It's literally the information system of my entire being goes and just fries out for the time period in which I let it fry out. And again, I use the words let it because I am deeply rooted in the choice voice. And I also have this weird thing about my brain where I think of it less of this thing that can do what it wants to do randomly because I've programmed myself in a way to think of my brain with switches. Turn that off, turn that switch off. We don't need that room to be lit up. Like, let's just go, nope, shut the door. And some people, I don't know if they have that thought process yet because it's just like all these things are firing and there's no control and there's no compartmentalization in there yet. Maybe it's because they haven't thought about it that way, or maybe it's because they don't want to do that. But for me, I literally have this thing where this is the place where fear lives. And now since I know that I've. And I'll use the word trapped, I don't know if that's the word I want to use. But now that I have it trapped there, now that I can see it, now that it's not this mystical thing that's hiding from me, I know where you live. I know who you are. And now I can start to take care of you, you in the way that you need to be taken care of. This quickly leads me into the conversation of like, good fear versus bad fear, fear behind us instead of fear in front of us. Things like that.

I love what you said there because here's how I described it once to a friend of mine. You remember the book Traction by Gino Wickman?

Yeah.

Right, okay. And for those of you in the audience who haven't heard of it, it's just a book that outlines an operating system of how to run a company, particularly in a startup culture. And one of the things that they talk about are these two very distinctive roles that exist within a company, often the CEO and the CEO, but really it's about the visionary versus the integrator. So the CEO and the visionary, that's where like you're talking about your big picture strategy. What is the vision for the future and what's possible. Da da da da da. Then you have the integrator, right? Your coo. They're responsible for like, okay, visionary. How are we actually going to get this done? How do we take this big picture pie in the sky thing and turn it into day to day tactics? Are we sure this isn't going to bankrupt the company? Things like that. The way I always like to think about it instead of demonizing my brain is my inner cupcake, my intuition. Because that's what I call my intuition. Right? Some people call it Source. Some people call it divine. Some people call it intuition. I'm like, it is a baked good that lives somewhere near my stomach. So my inner cupcake, my intuition is my CEO. It is the thing that sets the vision for my life. My brain is my coo. And in some cases, it's gonna be like, great, we've done this before. This is the plan. These are the logistics. And then sometimes it's gonna kick up what you just said, right? It's gonna turn into this little thing where it's like, but one time we got hurt in sixth grade, and it was very scary, and I don't want to. And you gotta tell it like, your job isn't to the vision. Your job is to help me get to the vision that I set. The other thing I want to mention here that I think is really, really powerful, and it kind of speaks to what we're talking about is that this map of where fear lives in the body. So a friend of mine who is a trauma therapist, I was having these feelings that I didn't know how to articulate, and she's like, well, what is it that you're feeling? And I said, I don't know. I can't tell if I'm happy. I can't tell if I'm excited. I can't tell them if I'm afraid, because physiologically excited excitement and nervous energy and fear can often feel the same. So she shows me this chart. And fear and anxiety tend to be feelings that center very deeply in your upper chest. It is radiating, but it often doesn't extend into your arms, your legs, or your head. And she said, if you're feeling it right here, you're likely dealing with fear and anxiety. And that really flipped the switch for me. I noticed if I started having thoughts that originated as a response to feeling feelings in this upper chest area, that was fear talking. That was not my intuition. That was not logic. That was me having a fight or flight response. And I will tell you, for our audience, that is a great way. If you suddenly feel a surge of feeling that makes you very uncomfortable, and it's centered mostly in your upper chest, you really want to be thinking about, is this a fear response? Likely. The answer is yes.

Yeah, it's interesting. I want people who are listening this to go to the show notes. Because the interesting thing for me was how akin surprise, fear, anxiety, but then also the map of disgust, Those four things, if you look at this, like, kind of heat map, if you will, it's very interesting to me how they're kind of aligned with each other. And what's really interesting is if you look at this heat map, and the reason I'm bringing this up is because we probably need to do a whole episode about anxiety, dealing with anxiety, like, what truly is anxiety. It almost looks like if you look at the heat map, that anxiety would be more detrimental to one's bodily ecosystem than fear is. Like, it is lit up like a freaking Christmas tree. Anxiety versus fear is a little bit more tamed down, but definitely check that out. Liz. It's interesting because. Because again, we talk about lit up. I did just now. And I want us to be careful because, again, green is go, red is stop, Red is bad. We use a red pen to, like, edit things. This heat map is in reds and yellows. So I want to be careful that we state, yes, this is how your body might react, but it could react this way to good fear, or it could react this way to bad fear. We're not saying these heat maps are showing here's what bad fear is. We're just saying here's what fear looks like or you might feel in your body.

So talk to us about good fear versus bad fear. We've teased this quite a bit. Talk to us about that.

So good fear, healthy fear, if used right, fear can be a direction, a motivator, a GPS to go away from things or go towards things. Not always running away from things, but going towards something or away from something. If you fear or you feel that sense of fear, how do you make this work for you versus working against you? Fear can open things. Instead of always thinking it, that fear is closing your life. Because many times we fear me heights. So I don't do ski lifts, roller coasters. Like, it's closing the possibilities in my life. But how can I use that fear to push me in a direction that actually opens my life? Because I refuse to listen to the voice of fear when we talk about good fear, too. One of the things that's really interesting here, if you do a search for good fear, like, on YouTube or whatever, you're gonna find that it goes right into the spiritual realm of things. Like, you'll start seeing pastors preaching messages and what the scripture says about fear and all that. And so I definitely want to dip my toes back into, like, something that I found very interesting as I was unpacking this and growing through it and even researching for this podcast. Couple little things. One, good fear, right? Fear of the Lord. And again, I'm not saying you have to be religious, but if you were to lean into something that was like, hey, that would be a good fear. Fearing a greater universe, fearing a God potentially that created you, whoever you call that God. It's a good thing to fear because it's like, listen, I would fear Hulk Hogan. I would fear Muhammad Ali. These people are bigger, they're stronger. Obviously the universe is bigger. Stronger God is bigger.

Strong taxes. When I have to go meet with.

My accountant, the government, government is bigger, right? But here's the thing. Proverbs 15:33. Fear the Lord is the instruction for wisdom. Now, if we think about wisdom, it's the ability to understand one's brain and make wise choices based on things that we've learned along the way. So it's very interesting that fear could be the instruction for wisdom, which actually, then we can get this reciprocal kind of thing happening with the wisdom that we're using to get rid of the fear that we have inside of our brain. But it goes on to say, and before honor comes humility. Humility. Now, Liz, you know me, I'm always about the happy, helpful, humble human. As soon as I saw fear of the Lord and wisdom and honor and humility, I was like, I love this verse. One more that I'll throw out here. Then I want to dive into negative fear. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom and instruction. Nobody wants to be a fool. We don't wake up in the morning, be like, I want to be a fool today. So there is a good fear. Another good fear is if there were dinosaurs, if there were saber toothed tigers, if there are in your community people that you should be watching out for, places you should be staying away from, those are good fears. Now when we think about bad fears, it's unhealthy. And what's interesting is as I think about this, I start to think about the word doubt. Doubting ourselves, doubting others, doubting the structural integrity of a roller coaster, doubting the fact that we can stay upright, not fall 1,000ft, or doubting the fact that the spider is probably more scared of us and the snake's more scared. Like, just this word, doubt. But here's the thing. What's interesting is we've talked a little bit about goals on this podcast, and I bumped into this TED talk by Tim Ferriss, and I was like, oh, my gosh. And he talks about, like, we always want to define our goals, but Tim Ferriss talked about defining your fear years. And he had this framework that I would beg the listeners to maybe Dive in and look for the TED Talk. But he had this framework where he talked about define, prevent and repair. And what was cool is define, was like, define the worst case outcomes. I'm afraid of roller coasters. What's the worst case scenario? I'm right, this thing blows up, I die. Okay, like that's a really bad worst case scenario, by the way. But then prevent. Well, what's the possible solutions? When's the last time this thing had a maintenance check? Is my seat belt buckled? Do I know where I'm going if I were to die anyway? Okay, I've done the possible solutions to this problem. And of course I'm kind of waxing funny with the fact that I'm afraid of heights here. But repair, then know your what ifs. Right now, my what ifs in this scenario couldn't be like, well, I'm going to fly away to safety because I'm not Superman. But in a real world, how can you define, how can you prevent? How can you repair? And then he had this one little other piece that he talked about the benefits. Benefits. We're really bad at understanding or thinking about the benefits of pushing through the fear or what we feel is going to go wrong. But what are all the positives once we get to the other side of that? And if you can define, here's my fear, here's how I would try to prevent that fear, here's how I can repair it, and here's the benefits if I make it through it. That to me was like a dope mental unlock of defining your fear. Fears instead of just defining your goals along the way of your life.

You know, you hit on two things there that I want to really double click on. Number one, really getting clear on the language we used to talk about fear, because I think this is true and I think we've touched upon this in other episodes. The language we use to talk about ourselves is so incredibly powerful. And it goes beyond just the ideas of these are the stories that we tell ourselves and da, da, da, da. But if you are constantly talking about things in highly negative terms, all you will look for is evidence of the negative. You will never look for evidence of the positive. The other thing you noted there actually leads me to what I would say is our final question today, George. And it's a bit of a trick question, and I promise to answer it as well. So you're not the only one on the hot seat for this. How often have your worst fears turned out to be true?

So this might be the last question But I do have one thing that I want to, like, wrap up with at the very, very end of this.

Of course.

So here's the thing. It's not going to be a long winded. Answer the question. Question. Almost never, Almost never. Like, I'll have this fear and then I'll get to the other side of it and I'm like, well, that was nothing like I thought it was going to be. That wasn't even as painful as I thought it was going to be. That wasn't the response that I was going to get from someone. Now, I will tell you, I can't say never because one of the things that I always wanted to do from a very young age was I wanted to be married and I wanted to have a family. We're talking like, like 16 and a half, 17 years old. I was already thinking about wanting to be married and have a family. One of my biggest fears in life. I've never talked about this. One of my biggest fears was actually that I would end up being divorced. I literally said at a young age that I'll never get divorced. Because, listen, I'm one of a kind. Ladies and gentlemen, they broke the mold. My mom and my dad had me. And now I have the pleasure, the joy of having a mom and a dad and a mom and a dad. You can make that sense. Like, I hate the word stepmom and stepdad. I have two moms and I have two dads. I'm very blessed in that. And by the way, all of them are still alive, which I'm very blessed with that. And so I get to have these relationships. But when I was younger, in my younger brain, I was like, well, I don't want to be like that. Which now there's traits that I want to be like. I picked the different ones from all of my moms and all of my dads, right? But I don't want to be like that. And I got married and I got divorced and I was like, oh, my worst fear came true. One of my other fears is that my kids would end up like me. Now what I mean by that is that they would end up being high school dropouts. Because if I could go back and change anything in my life, well, I wouldn't change it. But that's usually the thing that I would have told people, hey, if I could go change something. And I want to dip into why I said, don't ever say I don't want to do that or I don't want to be that or don't Focus on the thing that you don't want it to be. Focus on the thing that you want it to be is because all of my kids, pretty much all of my kids, two out of four, maybe even three out of four, struggled with school. And so I always felt like I was on this like, teeter totter of like, oh, crap, they're gonna be me. And that was another one of my biggest fears. Now, not the truth, right. There's diplomas, they're through school. They're all young adults at this point. Now they're on this journey of becoming whatever they become with the resources and brain and education that they put inside themselves. But that was like two sticky places in my life were like biggest fears and are they going to come true? Are they not going to come true? Like, oh my God, like, what I want the listeners to understand is I understand the wasted time of worry. The wasted time of worry based on fears that could, did, could maybe not happen. All right, you said you to answer this, so I'm super curious.

I have the same answer. Well, yeah, almost exactly identical. I have like a 99.9% failure rate when it comes to predicting the outcomes of my own life, particularly when the predictions I'm making are from a place of, you know, a place of fear.

Yep.

And I think that's something I want our listeners to remember and ask yourselves, how often have you been right about the worst case scenario? Also, my favorite thing too is the instances, those rare occasions in which the worst possible what if I don't get that job? What if, duh, what if I also get a divorce? Same thing. And I was raised Catholic. You didn't do that. Like, you didn't do it. There has never been a situation which I wasn't glad about the outcome, never. Now, to be fair, when we're talking about broken bones, physical harm, this is a horse of a different color. But the fear we're talking about today, the stuff, the little fear prisons that we build in our brains, often the thing that we actually fear is not an outcome. It's having to sit with uncomfortable feelings. And the moment you can actually master that, the moment things become wildly more possible. And I'm not saying that from a place of having mastered it. There are times where I still drive heave into a little mental paper bag and I'm still baby stepping, I'm still doing the work. But I would challenge everybody listening to ask yourself, how good are you at predicting the worst case scenario failures in your life? Now, of course there are going to be Ones that come out of nowhere where you're like f that was a big ass failure but you survived, you didn't explode. And what was the good that came out of it? I had the same thing. I left college. And what you said there is like, oh, I would have gone back and changed that. Well actually no, I wouldn't go back and change anything. That's what happens. At some point, the thing that was catastrophic, that we allowed it to define us for years becomes the thing that was the gateway to greatness, the gateway to the what is possible, possible that we could have never dreamed. Now George, you mentioned you want to leave our listeners with something today.

Yeah, it's funny when you use the word gateway, Liz. My brain went immediately to oh shoot, if they haven't checked out the episode on finish lines that are actually starting lines that almost dovetails into the conversation that we had there. So here's the thing. One of the things I want to make sure that we cover is next time you get into a place of fear, I want you to understand what I'm going to to do and maybe this will work for you. When I get in a place of fear moving forward, there's really three things that I'm going to do and a mindset that I'm going to challenge myself to have. And of course you guys and gals out there already know like I have this program that I run, False evidence appearing real. This is a little bit different than this or different than that. So the first thing when I run into fear moments moving forward, the first knee jerk reaction that I want to program or force myself into is quite question it. Why? Why am I fearful of this? Why am I feeling this way? Why is this happening right now? I want to question that moment in time and if I can ask why questions like 3, 5, 7 different directions around it, I start to understand it a little bit more. Because once I understand it now, I start to weigh it. Meaning is this a like deep level of fear, light level of fear? Is this a saber tooth tiger? Or is this the fact that you're two foot the ground on like a box or something? Like where are we at here? And then the third thing I want to do is understand the power of avoiding it or diving into it. So it's question it, it's weigh it and it's understanding if it should be avoided or dove into. And what I mean by avoided or dove into is the mindset that I really want to go into is understanding should this fear be behind, behind me and be a force pushing me through life, pushing me through the discomfort, pushing me into the places that I actually need to be. On stage, on roller coasters, living a full life, whatever it is. Or is it the fear that should be in front of me because it's designed to stop me from bad situations in life, whatever those might be. But instead of just fear being a stopper, fear being the thing in front of me always, I want to have that choice. And I literally want to program myself to be able to say behind me or in front of me in these moments that I've questioned and weighed the situation that is causing fear in my life in those moments.