What Is Quality Content? The Answer Has Changed, Feat. Todd Clouser

Do you live in a world filled with corporate data? Are you plagued by siloed departments? Are your lackluster growth strategies demolishing your chances for success? Are you held captive by the evil menace Lord Lack? Lack of time, lack of strategy, and lack of the most important and powerful tool in your superhero tool belt knowledge. Never fear, Hub Heroes. Get ready to don your cape and mask, move into action and become the Hub hero your organization needs. Tune in each week to join the League of Extraordinary Inbound Heroes as we help you educate, empower, and execute Hub Heroes. It's time to unite and activate your powers. Before we begin, we need to disclose that Devin is currently employed by HubSpot at the time of this episode recording. This podcast is in no way affiliated with or produced by HubSpot. And the thoughts and opinions expressed by Devin during the show are that of his own and in no way represent those of his employer, Devin.

Isn't it nice you get a constant reminder that you have your own thoughts also? Liz, before you jump in here, before you jump in here, Todd. Yes, there is a small audience. There's a small, small audience from the community. So, like, first of all, if you're listening to this podcast, we're not on LinkedIn, we're not on YouTube Live, we're not on like, any.

But.

But if you go to the community, go to community hub heroes.com, then you get the special link, then you can show up. And so there are some, some amazing troopers that show up on Fridays at 3 o' clock to kind of pay attention to our shenanigans. So. So there's no reason to be stressed. We're just gonna rock and roll.

Liz.

I know I hijacked the beginning of the show, which means there's probably going to be a poem or a limerick or some crazy ish at the end of this because of that, but I'll shut up now and you can go ahead.

You just don't summon the poetry beast. The p. The poetry beast does not appear. But you say it. You say it and you manifest it. Right.

I'm bringing it. Maybe I miss it. Maybe I miss it. I don't know.

I thought I must.

Maybe.

Maybe.

Oh, maybe because we have a very special guest today. Maybe I'll bring it back.

There we go.

I'll bring it back. Well, gentlemen, it is a miracle that we are back.

Wrong show. Wrong.

Wrong show. Wrong. A miracle that we made it through last week. Week's episode. Am I right? It is a miracle.

That was. We were really white knuckle in that one. That was.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My. My torture engines might have been a throwback to Max's steering wheel. Just saying.

Yeah.

Oh, my God. We don't need to be driven anywhere today. Okay, bud?

All right, well, I won't turn this car around.

First.

Devin gets a call out that his opinions are his own, which I feel like there's some sort of story behind that. It's like we need to. We need to call that out ahead of time.

If I start, like, Talking about, like, O.J. didn't do it or something, you know?

Oh, wow. This is going well so far.

Let the show begin.

How are you doing?

All right.

How are we doing? Okay.

Was that too. There was too much commotion happening.

Hey, I have. I have one question. I have one question.

Who.

Who's the cat wrangler in here? Can we get a cat wrangler, please?

George, Max, everyone zip it. I will turn this. I will turn this recording around. I will pull over. There are no bathroom stops until the next Wendy's. Todd, welcome to Hub Heroes. We are so glad you're here. Tell us about this. Thank you very much.

Hi, I'm Todd.

I'm sorry you're welcoming so much like a.

My friends call me Todd. Hi, Todd.

Don't hurt me.

Don't.

Oh, God. Did we scare Todd into submission? There he is. Hey, bud.

Oh, my God, I'm already dying. This is the best episode we've ever done.

And we haven't even gotten the car and drive yet, so.

All right, guys. All right, hold on, everyone. Dip it. Todd, we're actually super glad you were here because we've been trying to get you on this show for a while. But before we dig into the actual topic of science, substance, gentleman that we will be speaking to today, Todd, where are you from? What you do? What you all about, bud?

I'm. I'm from Pittsburgh. I do. I do marketing and some may say poorly. So that's a little bit about me.

I live in Youngstown, not that far apart.

I love it.

Have you told lavender that yet?

Hey, I just lean into it. That's. That's my whole thing, you know? Like if you. If you lean into being bad at something and they still hire you, you. They can't. They can't fault you. And when you do it jokes on them.

So what does lavender hire you for? What are you. What are you doing now?

I'm creating serialized content. So, like, I pitched Lavender on the idea that we were going to build this Netflix style content hub where we were gonna Take everybody internally and kind of run this playbook that me and a buddy of mine, Obed, created to build everyone internally into their own little influencer sphere around a series that they created versus like a lot of influencers are just known for a lot of one off, really good, funny, entertaining, educational content. Through my own content consistent assumption, I realized that I'm terrible at remembering people for their names and what they say, but more about what they do. So like for instance, If I'm scrolling TikTok and so like I'll say like, hey, have you ever, have you ever seen that guy that does those like green screen zoom videos? Now I know the guy's name's Frankie Lapena, but like I only know that because I've referenced his content a million times. So like I could always reference the stuff he's memorable for, not necessarily his name. So I pitched this idea that basically I wanted to create these series that everybody people could remember them for because I'm so terrible at remembering names. You know, I think a lot of people are that way, but people can remember a person for the content that they create and I think serializing the content makes it easier to do that.

That is really.

Yeah, this is gonna be a really interesting conversation. And Max, I know you and Todd go back. Do you wanna say hi to your friend?

Hey buddy. Well, I mean this is the first time me and Todd actually got to do something together. We've been, we've been like TikTok buddies and WhatsApp buddies and LinkedIn buddies for a long time, but we've never actually been able to be in the same live presence with each other. So sir, it's an honor.

I feel like that's a lie.

Not a lie.

Feel.

It'S not a lie. You're in Liar. Todd.

I'm going to. I feel, I feel like you don't. You don't. We were on a live on Tik Tok. We did a long time ago and you don't even remember.

You think you're better than me.

We did do that one. No, cuz that was probably like the one of the two LinkedIn lives I've ever done besides when I did it at or not LinkedIn Tik Tok lives. So now I feel like an.

Did you black out during your Tik Tok?

I might have.

Did you black out?

I might have. I forgot we did, we did go live together. Oh, now I feel like an. Well, I know we wanted to do more stuff and then we never did. So anyway, here's the thing.

I had a brand new tagline too. Hub Heroes podcast. Bringing buddies together since 2023. Now that's Sean.

No, I still think we're doing it.

You guys already did something together.

I still love him, even though I forgot the one TikTok Live that we got to do.

It was a pretty forgettable live.

So, Todd, are you now calling Max forgettable? Fight. Fight.

I mean, as a combo.

As a combo.

All right, well, okay. Flawless segue. Are we ready to talk about what we're supposed to be talking about today, gentlemen? Because there is a reason why I am so excited to have Todd here. So, yeah, one of my favorite things about the inbound ecosystem is probably something that others love. But also, let's be perfectly honest, we're marketers and we just love to hate everything and complain about, well, everything. The world of inbound and HubSpot and content. What makes it exciting is that it's always changing in terms of what's in, what's out, what works, what doesn't. And that means these conversations that we are about all of these evergreen topics. So for example, if we're thinking about like content, email, stuff like that, we're often centering our conversations around the same questions over and over again, year after year. But as time marches on, as we continue to innovate, how we answer those same questions often drastically change. Which brings me to my favorite topic. Today we're talking about content. I'm a content nerd. If you have been here before, I'm not only a piss poor wrangler, apparently of hub hero hosts, I am also a content strategist. So I'm very excited because today we are talking about content. So let's think about the questions we have been answering. George, for you, since 2012, me since 2014, things that we have been discussing between eight and 10 years. You know, what are the correct answers to questions like how do you define quality content? And what does a great mix of content and media look like today? Because that's really what we have been trying to figure out, like make content. Well, how do we know if it's good? How do we know if it's high quality? How do we know if we're doing the thing that we're supposed to be doing? So that's why, Todd, I am so glad you're here because earlier this week you and I had a really interesting conversation where you were talking about this media engine framework that you have been developing and talking about. But the starting point of this frame centers around those evergreen questions which is talking about what is quality content and how do you decide what content you're going to create and what type of content you're going to create in order to satisfy that? So we've been kicking around do words still matter? Do, like, does video, like how much does video count? I love that we're already talking about serialized content. I love that we're already talking about these things because these are one dimensional questions that used to have one dimensional answers and that is simply not the case anymore. So that's what we're getting into today, fellas. How do we feel about that?

I'm excited.

It's an impressive intro. That's an impressive intro.

Yeah.

I mean let's, let's be honest. You, you had me like lock, stock and barrel when we actually quit being stupid children for a minute and Todd started to talk and he said serial content. And I was like, shut up class and listen. So I'm ready to rock and roll.

Let's do it. All right, so before we dig into what's true today, I actually want to throw this question out to everybody. I want to take a trip in the Wayback machine and ask you guys, when you think back to your earliest days as content creators inbounders, how did you define quality content back then other than, well, I'll start published. Published.

Oh, you stole my answer.

It was done.

Yeah, but you got to remember back in the day like that was okay for to be a goal like at the very beginning in 2012, 2013 of this like inbound movement arming the small to medium sized business, this solopreneur with a way to create content and create a content engine around the larger organizations. Like just publishing 400 to 600 words actually did something for you. So like you, it's funny, you say it as one word and make it a joke, but like it is a valid, valuable moment in time that happened. But like everything else, it just gets saturated and there gets to be so many people. But I would, but I would say this too, like, because we're talking about like what defined quality content. I think it was this idea of being able to even just be you in the content to position your organization. Because this really like being a human organization or humix, human centric organization, like didn't really start to be talked about or gained steam until we actually had the power to create content in a space where we could actually humanize the brands with what we were doing. So I think publishing showing up as one's authentic self and understanding that creating that four or 500 words, 800 words, that led to a conversion opportunity, aka a business conversation. Like, these are success points at the very beginning.

I'm pretty impressed.

Can I be brutally honest for a moment?

Yeah, Todd, bring it in.

So when I first started creating content, I started doing YouTube in 2011, and the two channels we focused on were YouTube and Facebook. And the CEO of my company would. We were in a. I was in like, a separate building from the rest of the company. So, like, because I wasn't. We were owned by like, this large manufacturing company. So, like, all the. Most of the offices were up in this large building. I was in this small little building with like, the mailroom and the executive suite. And I was. I would sit in this room by myself, and every single morning, the CEO of the company would walk into my office on his way in and be like, hey, how many views? How many views did we get on the latest content? And I, I would literally send my YouTube videos to every single person I knew and every single person in the. And be like, listen, I don't care if you watch this, just click play. Because I know that man is going to walk into my office tomorrow and ask me how many views this has. So my. My metric at the very beginning was not to say this is good, but it was 100% views. And I still remember he would walk in and I'd. I'd be like, we got a hundred views today. Yeah, and that was like, that, that was a. That was a. That was a good number back in the day.

Todd, I love that that you're going into like, like being able to pay attention to vanity Met. And I'm. I'm envisioning like the. The boss walking by and you're like, a hundred views and then you're like, thanks, mom, for watching this.

I appreciate was 100% the case, though. And again, this wasn't. This was in 2011 too, right? Like, YouTube was. I used to get like, isn't that for cat videos? Like, we don't remember that, like, as a thing now, but like, I used to get that all that was a. An objection that I had to overcome. So, like 100 views. Like, while it sounds ridiculous now, like, that was not terrible back then, so.

Shoot, for some companies right now, that's not terrible. Let's be honest. Like, especially if it's the. And by the way, this is. I'm sorry, I know I'm probably not paying attention to the Simon, because this is kind of leaning into maybe where we have to get to, but like if it's a hundred of the right views instead of like 20 of your mom viewing it, like, now we're starting to get into where we got to be now is like, it doesn't matter if it's a ton of eyeballs, as long as it's the right eyeballs.

Well, that was the conversation I was actually having with somebody recently, earlier this week, about content. And how do you measure the success of a piece of content? Well, if it's content piece meant to drive traffic, then, yeah, you want to look for higher, higher traffic commensurate with the amount of search volume that a particular term is getting that month. But if you're talking about a sales enablement piece that's meant to be used by the sales team and an assignment selling capacity where they're sharing content in advance of a sales call and it's not a traffic keyword, you're not looking at views as your metric for success. You're looking at how many deals that have closed that that particular piece of content was tied to. So I think that's always that fascinating metric of. To your point, George, what you said about eyeballs, are they the right eyeballs, but also understanding what is the purpose a piece of content is meant to play. George, you said something that was interesting to me, that I was actually kind of surprised, like, you were that early on thinking about humanity in terms of like, getting to show up as yourself in a piece of content. But I would say for a lot of people, especially in the B2B space, who were just starting out, they weren't necessarily trying to showcase a lot of razzle dazzle personality. They just wanted to be accurate. Like, it was very much like Wikipedia style. This is your Encyclopedia Britannica entry of this is the information. But we're not going to give you too much because we want to put a hard pitch at the end of the article.

Accurate and searchable.

Yep.

Devin, what about you, bud? What do you think?

Oh, quality content. Yeah, Back then it was all about SEO. Back then I wrote for the robots. I mean, I wrote for the people too, and wanted quality content that, you know, would resonate for with whoever I was trying to reach. But in 2011, all I cared was about gaming the algorithm and trying to get people to find me. Like, I was just talking to somebody about it. On the YouTube team here at HubSpot, there is this video that I have that has 371,000 views and it was shot with a potato. And this was like 2000, like 2010. Right. And it was MGK. It was when MGK had first gotten signed and he had beef with another rapper named Yellow Wolf. Wasn't even really beef. Yellow Wolf said something about MGK and mgk. Found out about it live on the radio station that I worked at. And there was a guy who was there filming, you know, professionally. Filming professionally. Editing. I was shooting it with my 1P cell phone. Not even 1080p, not even HD, just D. And I got like four times the views he did just because I gamed the algorithm. And so for me, it was a proof of concept as well as a small revenue generator because that was back when everyone could get monetized and there were no thresholds. But yeah, back then, any content I created, be it video, be it written, all I cared about was gaming the algorithm and getting numbers just because the robots allow it.

How do you define quality content?

Well, I mean, I feel like I didn't really start thinking about content until like 2015 when I was onboarding HubSpot customers. And that was like the one thing stopping them from actually being successful or not. And I'm almost like wondering if my thinking is outdated because I'm saying still very much in the same mindset as I was back then. Right. I think I quickly came to realize where it's like, oh, cool, you could optimize the crap out of this article as much as you want for a search engine, but a search isn't. Search engine isn't buying your product. It really doesn't matter, like how much you, you know, go hog wild on the, on the, on the SEO side of things. If people find it and it doesn't change their hearts and minds, it doesn't influence them to do something or change their mind on something or educate them in any way, like, what's the point, right? So for me, it was always just like. I'll go back to the thing that I always say and like, I've believed this ever since I started thinking critically about content, is that quality means that whatever that person's consuming, whether they're reading it, watching it, read, watch, listen, I don't know, whatever ways you can consume content, if it doesn't help them, you know, overcome some kind of challenge or get closer to, you know, achieving some sort of goal that they have, right? Then it's not quality, it's just a waste of time. Now, again, I think people define quality a little bit differently. And, you know, when you think of goals or challenges, sometimes your goal is just to laugh a little bit, right? Sometimes you're you know, you're. It doesn't have to be like this crazy B2B thing, but, like, you know, you go on YouTube or TikTok and you scroll because your goal is to break away from the, you know, craziness of your day or, Or. Or laugh at something or whatever. Right. But, you know, I think those same physics applied in the world of, you know, B2B and inbound and all that kind of stuff too. So I don't know, my ch. My thinking on it hasn't, like, evolved or changed that much. I still think that fundamental stuff is, like, really still super important.

Well, here's the thing. I. It doesn't surprise me that that hasn't changed because of the word that you just used at the end. It was fundamental. It's the foundation, it's the philosophy, it's the reason. What has changed is the, the tactics, the strategies, the spaces, the conversations, the length, depth. Like all of that has changed, but because of that underlying mindset that you just listed, like, you shouldn't be like. Well, I, I'm. I'm questioning myself if I'm even. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Foundation is foundation. Like life principles are life principles.

Yeah.

It's how you then apply that to the, the place and space that you're gonna do what you're gonna do.

Yeah. I mean, the, the people wonder why I spend so much time trying to be like, you know, a HubSpot, Twitch streamer type person on LinkedIn or make a bunch of content on TikTok. And I think the thing that I've always said that I think is really aligning with what you just said in terms of, like, the method and the delivery and the. And how you do that content. It's like, listen, the next generation of B2B buyers are currently growing up on Twitch and TikTok and Snapchat, and they're consuming information and finding information and learning about stuff in the ways that you're. You. You didn't. Right. And that's where your audience is going to be, you know, even in some of these more boring and traditional, you know, sectors and industries and stuff like that. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I mean, that's definitely changed. I think it's. It's, you know, I've kind of gone from like, oh, you got to write, you know, specific blog posts that solve for a goal or challenge and do this and that and, you know, got to show up in like, the Google search to like, saying it's like your buyers are somewhere different now, or more and more, they're going to be somewhere different. And you got to adapt to that.

Well, that moves us really nicely into the next part of our conversation. Todd, why don't you talk to us a little bit about how you speak. See, that definition of quality content has evolved. And I know we're about to start digging into the. The specific qualifiers that you use to. To determine whether or not content is quality. But first, can you talk to us about what you've observed is the changes in that definition?

Yeah. So as far as changes, I think there's been this. There's been this mix, right. We've seen it in B2B, where, like, for the longest time we were creating, like, what Devin said, like, content made for the algorithm, SEO, all of that. And more recently, we've seen people kind of. Then it evolved into, like, educational videos and that sort of thing. And now as we see, like, Gen Z start to work into, like, the workforce, you see more entertaining content, that sort of thing. But I don't think there's ever really been something that defines how and why all of those things can kind of work together and be successful. So when Obet and I were creating this framework, we kind of set out to define, like, in our books, what defines good content. Because, like, you can have a really good SEO blog post and that can be good content, and you can have a really good skit that can be really good content. But, like, what kind of brings those things together? So how we define it is at the very base of all content, there should be some sort of insightful substance. Now, as you get more into that entertaining realm, like, it's going to start to play more of a backseat, obviously. But, like, those are the, the skits that do really well, at least in the B2B space. Now, like, purely entertaining content for, like, creator, totally different. But, like, when we're talking about, like, entertaining content for a company, the reason a lot of that stuff hits so hard is because, like, it resonates so much. Like, one of the. One of the most successful skits I ever did was if sales and marketing were a married couple. And the reason that it worked so well is because, like, it was based. The. The insights in that were like, all of these things, I was poking fun at putting them into this, like, ridiculous situation. Kind of brought out how, like, stupid all these things that all of us do on a daily basis. So, like, there's an insight at the bottom of it. So, like, at the base of anything, you have the insightful substance right after that. And these things, it's not like graduating from one to another. This is just like three completely separate types. We say insightful substance with an interesting format. So, like, think of. And I don't know if if these examples will land or not, but like Papela on LinkedIn does a series called do youo Even Resonate? That's like he, he does like this.

That's an amazing title.

Yeah. So like he, his, his brand does message testing. So he has this like, show around, like, how his tool works and it's entertaining to watch as a format. I created one with, with my salesperson called 3 Minute Sales School, where he does email rewrites, but we gamify it. So, like, we turn that into a game show and then like, we use the tool as the judge. So we've taken an insightful substance of how to rewrite these emails and we've inserted a format. So, like, it's just more interesting to watch than someone saying, like, hey, I'm going to take this email and here's what I'm going to change. Here, here, here, here. Kind of boring. But like, if we, if we insert this format now you've got that, it's a little more interesting. And then the third one, same things, but now we incorporate the entertainment. So, like, for instance, a lot of people know lavender for lavender Joe for people that don't. Like, we kind of embodied all of like the terrible tactics that sales people do, like, into this character and then like, put him out in the wild, like on a bench in Toronto and like, film these skits around him. And again, like, people look at that and they say, like, okay, like, where's the insightful substance? It's just comedy. But again, same as before, the reason that comedy lands is because it's based in the things that salespeople always do. So we're, we're showing you how ridiculous it is by putting it in a different scenario. So, like, it's just different ways to make that same message land. And the beauty of all this is I can take the exact same topic and plug it into all these different things and create content around it over and over and over and over again and just like nail that message into your head without you getting bored of it. Because I'm, I'm giving you all these different formats.

Todd, can I ask you a question? And I'm trying to think of how to, like, frame this up. And I think we like, kind of hit on this on like an earlier, like one of the past episodes that we did. But like, what do you think the, like, what's the psychological mechanism that humor adds to, like, educational content that makes it more memorable or seen more positively or I don't know the word I'm looking for. But it definitely, I think, like, plays a role in enhancing what we would kind of consider the quality of content. Like, what is it about humor that just like, adds to like the educational stuff that makes it so good?

I think this is going to be a super basic answer, but I'm going to try to, I'm going to try to elaborate on it. I think the thing about making entertaining content or humor is that it's just a hundred times more memorable.

Yeah.

So like, so like, like what I. When I was at Refine Labs and a lot of people didn't even realize, like, this was my personal content strategy. But whenever, whenever we would do, we had a weekly webinar where Chris Walker would do Demand gen Live. And then whatever topics he talked about, like, his videos were always very like straight education talking head, like kind of no nonsense talking, like his facts. Right. Every week those would become my top. And he didn't even know this. I don't think those would become my topics to poke fun at from entertainment. So like the goal being if someone saw him talk about a certain topic, they kind of like understood it and they got the point. And then I would come over the back end and create this specific, like super entertaining or try to make super entertaining content about the same thing to make it stick in their mind.

Yeah.

So like the, the combination of his educational content with my ridiculous content together, I think was a good combo.

Yeah.

So. So Max, I love the question and I think the question that you're asking is actually less about content and more about humans. And so while Todd was actually answering around the content side, I wanted to do a quick search because I was like, this is a really interesting question that Max just asked. And if you think about work, for most of us, most humans, work is stressful.

Yeah.

Okay. You're just, you, you've got to perform. You've got things that you've got to do. And so one of the first things that you find when you search humor in, in the way that you would do, like, for, like, how is it good for humans? A. It talks about when you're laughing, there's organ stimulation. Like a good laugh improves your intake of oxygen rich air. This in turn stimulates the organs such as heart, lungs, muscle. Your brain actually releases endorphins during this time of Laughter, it release reliefs stress. Right. Laughing activates your body stress response mechanism relief from tension. Laughter also stimulates your rapid blood circ. Long term benefits boost an immune system. It actually helps with pain relief and positivity. So when you ask like how come humor helps us with our educational content? It's because all of this internal stuff that is just programmed to happen when we actually find something funny is now attached to the content that we're actually consuming from an educational level. Yeah, that's, that's the power.

Yeah, it's, it's the, the, the thing that I thought was like so interesting, at least what that I saw when I started taking these just goofy ass tick tocks and posting them on LinkedIn, is that like it was, it was such a pattern interrupt for the people that I was like posting it for. And I think it's interesting because, you know, it, it. Seeing something unexpected and funny like that I feel would often like take people out of whatever kind of droney work mode that they're in when they see something that's like unexpected. Right. And get them to pay attention a little bit more and kind of forget what they were doing for a second. Devin, you also had an interesting take in there too, that the dopamine makes it stick. I don't know if you wanted to toss in anything on that too.

That was gonna be my question. Because I love that we're getting on the science kick here because I think we forget like it's all about the humans, right?

Yes.

And humans are biological creatures.

Yeah.

So Devin, take it away. Talk to us about that.

Absolutely. So I'm sure I've mentioned it more than once here, but I am ADHD and we are dopamine addicts. And so doing anything, my brain wants to shut down completely, whether it's learning, whether it's doing dishes, unless I am enjoying it and getting that dopamine rush from it, it's not going to work for me. But also conversely, being adhd, it means that I'm really good at hyper focusing. If there's something that I'm really into like for right now, my current kick is learning how to program a bot in order to play the cell phone game. That's basically like a city building game. And so that's the kind of thing that I can spend hours focusing on and it sticks. But it works like that for everyone. It's just for people like me, that's the only way it works. But for everyone else, you get that good feeling that you get while doom scrolling if you can incorporate that into whatever content you're creating. At that point, it's less learning by grit, and then it becomes more fun, like Sesame Street. So I am always a fan of, like, incorporating humor, incorporating just silliness, non sequiturs. Feel free to break up the monotony of whatever it is that you're saying or doing just by just sheer silliness. Like, for instance, if you're watching Max just breaks out his steering wheel because he just needs his fidget spinner while we're talking. And it's just that kind of. I know that Andrew Huberman said he doesn't like the term brain hacking, but I freaking love it because that's exactly what it feels like I'm doing is hacking my own brain. Just incorporating that methodology and that mindset where I'm not trying to give you information for the sake of giving you information, but I'm going to enrich your life in more than one way. And by adding that dopamine kick, that satisfaction in the. The video. Like if you, for instance, if you're looking, if you're on Instagram or TikTok, you're. And you're watching these reels where they're just reading content with the subway surfers behind it or doing Minecraft parkour behind it, what they're doing is they're giving you information along with something that's giving you satisfaction. And it's just a really, really simple dopamine hack.

Zoomer edits. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so, Devin, I'm so glad that you said all of the things that you just said, but most importantly, I am glad that you brought up a reference around Sesame street because I, I have always dreamed about on this podcast being able to go one, one funny video.

Ah, ah, ah.

Two. Two funny videos.

Ah, ah, ah.

No. But more importantly, before I get kicked off the show, I do want to hit the chat pane. By the way, that was the Count. He's one of my favorites from the Sesame Street. I'm just gonna throw that out there. But I do have to go the chat pane before I get kicked off the show because Chris in the chat pane literally says when you're having fun, you're more open to new ideas, insights, exploration, etc, which is like super dope. By the way, thanks for the kind words. Kind of like this podcast. And he even leans into, for example, I, I very bad, sadly want to multitask with this on, meaning this podcast that he's watching. Impossible. Yeah, because it's so fun. You have to Pay attention.

Here's the thing about multitasking. With this kind of content, there's two types of things that you can do simultaneously, especially if you're adhd. It's one where you're using your brain and one where you're not using your brain. So if you're going to use your brain and listen to into something like this, go do the dishes, go vacuum, go do something where you can put your body on autopilot and then actually save the fun stuff for what you're doing. And then another thing that will happen is that if you go back and listen to this podcast, not only will you be remembering what's being said and how you felt during the times it was said, you're also going to remember the dish that you were watching during this particular point. You're going to remember where you were on your lawn while you're cutting the grass. It's so weird. But then conversely, if you're doing something that requires your focus, then turn on what I like to call cartoons for your brain. Just something else that will just shut off the other stuff that just kills the background noise because it's just sitting like, ooh, pretty sounds. Lo fi. Edm. Yeah, that's my jam. That movie that I've seen 8 billion times, that is basically background noise at this point. Absolutely. But as far as doing two higher function intellectual tasks simultaneously, don't even bother me.

Liz, Liz, before. Because I know you really want to move us on to this next section. Hold on. Because you content queen, I can't let you move us on to the next section without hearing your take on this. Because we've been talking a lot. But I want to hear what you say about this.

Anything in particular that you want to hear me say? Anything particular about?

Wax poetic. Just on the whole, like, you know what we just. The takes we've been given. I want to hear your end of the whole dopamine humor, all that kind of stuff.

It's nice that you asked me that because it actually leads into my next question here, because here's where I struggle with this. No, I'm serious. I'm loving the conversation that we are having right now. And I also know that one of the biggest no no's that I see a lot of content creators make is they try to be funny when it's not natural to them, where they sacrifice authenticity as a human to gamify, to be entertaining, to do things that just don't really make sense for them. And one of the things that I've coached a lot of folks on whether they're doing video content or whether they're doing written content or whatever type of content that they're doing. I always tell them not to freak out too much, not to get too caught up in what the Joneses are doing across the street. Street. Because how they connect with the humans they're trying to serve may be wildly different than what it is that they're doing. It also may not be in line with what your brand is, because the thing that we have to remember is that your brand's content and how you show up authentically as humans should be in alignment with the experience that people will have with your brand. So if you are an established financial services company where you may serve an older clientele or maybe, just maybe, you have a lot of compliance hoops that you need to jump through, and you need to be a little bit more stayed in your execution, your way of showing up as a human is going to be fundamentally different than a B2B SaaS company that gets to have a lot of fun. And it's. But here's the thing. I think those more human moments can also be fun as well. So when I'm hearing this conversation, there's part of me that really loves a lot of what we're talking about. My concern, though, is that we are walking this line of, I love brain hacking. I also have add. I'm hearing all of these things. And also, sometimes I don't want to laugh. Sometimes I'm looking at something that stresses me out because my job is on the line. Something. And maybe I also want to laugh in those moments, too. But sometimes the most powerful points of human connectivity are not just because you're helping me release endorphins and dopamine in my brain. It's because you looked through the screen and somehow read my mind and made me feel seen, heard, and understood. And I don't have to laugh to feel that.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It's almost like you're saying relatability is the important mechanism. And, like, humor is one of the best ways to deliver it, but it's not always the way to deliver it too well.

I will also say, though, like, George, you've talked a lot about a talk that you gave a long time ago where you stood on stage and you opened with, so I'm a high school dropout. And everybody kind of laughed. You, like, you just stood there and hung on to that silence.

Yeah, I'm like. And really wasn't a joke, yo.

Now, to be fair, I'm also, I love that you called me the content queen because yes, I am royalty, but also like I do teach about the thing that most people run from. So very early on in my speaking and education career, I learned that if people did not like me, they were not going to to listen. But the most powerful moments that people would come up and tell me about my talks were very rarely the shift that they're like, yeah, you're funny. But they like be like, ma', am, when you talk about content managers or relationship managers, first, that it's all about the people. The human like that really resonated and jumped out at me. So that's where my thinking goes. And cmx, this is actually what was leading into my next question. Because Todd, I saw you head nodding. I always love when people agree. But how do you help organizations square that circle? Because I know there are, there are people listening to this podcast right now where it's like, well, I don't work at a lavender, I don't work at a HubSpot, I don't work at a happily. And it can feel like screaming into the wind to really try to create content that is educational, that is insightful, that is entertaining, that potentially, oh my God, has a bit of humor. Or maybe they don't feel like humor is that right path for humanity for them? So how do you encourage folks to lean into that kind of stuff where maybe it's just not as straight of a path for them?

When you say, how do you convince people? Elaborate on that a little bit.

So like, are you asking, let me redirect the question. What advice would you have for people who are listening to this, who are nodding along with us, saying, but they're going like, man, I would love to, to be able to do that. And I'm not sure what the buy in might look like for insightful education and educational, entertaining content. I'm not sure how much people would be interested in gamified content. I'm not sure we have a content production or operations team that would enable us to do these things at scale. So like, what are those micro ways that people can get started? What are the micro conversations that people can start having internally to move the needle in this way? Because this is where content is going. It's already there.

Yeah. I think in order, in order to do that, like for instance, when I was at Refine Labs, like nobody was creating entertaining content. Right? Like, no one came to me and said, hey, we need you to create entertaining content. It's a gap that we have I think, like, if you want to test something, a lot of people will like, try to go out and get either budget or approval to do it. But I think the beauty of where we're at, like in this like, content journey we're all on, is like, you can create your own personal content now.

Yeah.

You know, like, you don't, you don't need to go and get permission to create personal, to create personal content. So like, for example, with, with my own entertaining content, I took Chris Walker's stuff, he didn't ask me to do that, and I turned it into skits. And then like, one of the things we did at Refine Labs was we had self report attribution. So like, people would tell us, hey, I saw Todd's skit. Like, that's why I'm coming here. So like those, they're little, little tests that you can run yourself. And then once everyone starts seeing it, like, it's also this thing on internal marketing, right? Like, if it's not super transparent in your company, you have to be your own best advocate to show people the effect that it, it's having. But at that point, like you start running these tests yourself and once they start working, then in my experience, people start coming to you for help. Like, at that point, you don't even need to sell it because you're building in public. And like your leadership and your co workers, they all see that and now they come to you asking to help them do the same thing.

Yeah, 100%. Devin, you got something to say? But I want to follow, I want to follow up on, on what you want to throw down here.

Oh, me? Sure, go. I can do that. Okay, so the thing is, is that. And my camera died, so you can't see me, but the thing is that I'm waving my hand in front of my face and everything. With your own personal brand is your opportunity to not only experiment, but to establish yourself as a thought leader in the space. There's this one guy I know whose name precedes him in every room he goes into. Huge influencer in the partner space. But his issue was that all of his content was always attached to a brand. And so if he would move on from that brand, the content would stay with that brand and the brand could and sometimes did remove that content. And so everything, everything that he would create would no longer exist. But the thing is that if you create this content, not only does it allow you to establish a proof of concept and get buy in and budget, but it will also be yours. That you own that you can take anywhere with you and that will be evergreen. So you can be this established thought leader with historical content and relevance to show as an example. Now, three guesses who I'm talking about in the first two don't count.

Yeah. So let me follow up on what you just said. Here's the thing, because there's a couple things when Todd was talking, what I hope everybody understands is that we now live in a world where you have the power to create your Persona, your person, your brand into anything that you want it to be, whether it be on YouTube, whether it be on LinkedIn, whether it be on TikTok. Like you have the power. It just takes time. It doesn't even really take money, to be honest with you. Yeah, a little bit of gear here and there, a little bit of education over here, a dose of this, a dash of that. But you can build yourself into a brand. And when you do that and you're working inside an organization, you can make a brand powerful enough where they can't but help to have to listen. They can't but help to have to plug you into some type of system of content creation in the organization because they realize how many conversations you'll start. Now, Devin, to your conversation. What where my brain went. And I hope that everybody that is working in other organizations doesn't let the excuse of, well, they could shut it off or they could turn it off or I might work somewhere else. That like, that shouldn't be an excuse. You should just become a content creation machine no matter where you're at, and build your brand into what it can be. Understanding, it's a stepping stone of where you're gonna eventually be at and become. Because here's the lesson I've learned along the way. You can erase it from the Internet, but you can't erase it from their brain. And they've watched my content, they've learned from my content. I've already reached their mind, I've already reached their heart. And even if they can't find it on YouTube, they know that it's in there.

I'll think about, think about all that.

By the way, if you weren't paying.

Attention, Todd, what were you gonna say?

I was just going to, I was just going to give an example of that. Not necessarily that this is like company content by any stretch, but like, just think about all of the like one hit viral things out there. Like even if that, I mean, no one, no one goes out and searches for that content anymore, but we still all remember it you know, so just kind of. Kind of another way to think about that.

Yeah. I haven't searched for the Dancing Baby in, like, a decade, but I can still remember it in my brain.

Funny, I have in the gift. Gift that's out there is not the one that I remember. And so it's. You're exactly right. The original Dancing Baby gift that I've looked for because I remember that dance move because I've watched that thing hundreds of times in the 90s. It's not the same thing. These kids have been cheated.

Oh, my gosh.

My baby.

The baby had way better moves.

It was lower resolution and we liked it.

That's right. Eight bit baby all the way.

Speaking of lower resolution babies, what do we think are the essential mindsets we must possess today to create truly quality content? Don't you like that? That's authentic.

Yo, lower. Lower resolution babies is like the ultimate insult. You are a low resolution baby.

My God, Max, just.

Just drive your car and get us somewhere. Max.

Come on, old man. All right. No, I actually want to know, though. So if we're thinking about the types of mindsets, and we all know we love a good mindset on this episode, right, fellas?

Love a good mindset.

That's right. We love a good mindset. What are the mindsets that inbound practitioners need to possess today that is different from before in order to create quality content? How do we need to be thinking about this now?

Well, I think there's one thing that hasn't changed, and it's you need to know what keeps your customers up at night. First and foremost, you need to know what is bothering these people and what the issues are. Because you can speak all day and you can get excited and nerdy about what excites you, but if it's not about a problem that they're trying to solve or a problem they're not even aware of, it doesn't matter. The mindset that I like to have is going into it as the salesperson who is not actually trying to sell anything, just being the old wise man in the room that somebody's like, hey, I have this problem. And I'd be like, oh, yes, I remember when I had that problem. Oh, way back when. Let me tell you how I solved it. And then just like, you know, go all mentor and sage and in my outline, and then, you know, just add non sequiturs and just deadpool references.

I love it. George. Max, what about you?

What about Todd?

George, sir, we're closing on the heavy hitter. He's our anchor. He's saved us in ourselves.

Okay, okay, okay. I was trying to be a polite guest in the Hub heroes house.

Just cut it out. Just cut that part out.

All right, Max, you want to go? You want me to go?

It's the mindsets question, right?

Yeah, it's the mindsets question.

I mean, it's for, for me, I, I, you know, I, I, I have that, you know, big, long technical spiel about the, you know, thinking about the buyer's journey, right. And, and the dual mindsets and all that crap. And I won't bore anybody with that, because that's a, that's another episode we've already done. But I just think the mindset that you've got to be in is your. It's your, it's your customer's mindset, right? Like, you got to be like, what's going through their head, right? What's, what's important to them? What are they trying to figure out? You know, be someone who's there to kind of just educate them on stuff versus just to sell a product. But then you also got to be able to, like, tie that together and say, how is this going to help us down the road eventually to sell some kind of product? Because that is your job, at the end of the day, as, like, a marketer that can be a byproduct of whatever it is that you're doing to, like, educate folks, you know, so it's just like, I think the mindset is like playing the long game while being an educator and just ensuring that, like, each piece of content has a job in terms of, like, how it shapes hearts and minds and how it educates people and, you know, how it ultimately, like, does have a good downstream benefit on the company in some way, shape or form. So I don't wouldn't want to say that's like, one mindset. But, you know, it's just the mindset you got to get out of is that I'm just creating content that shows how cool our product is. Right. So if there's anything, it's just get out of that mindset and get into more of an educator one.

Yeah. So, you know, if you're gonna have a batting average, you have to step up to the plate. And so many people go at this, especially, you know, middle to large organizations, is like, how can we, how can we create a viral hit? How can we hit a home run? And it's less about a home run about being viral. It' about a thousand at bats that are of value. Right. Just getting a, getting on base a thousand times. And so one of the things that I've always fought against, I've never allowed the expectation of anything becoming viral even to enter my mind. In all the content that I've created, I'm simply in the mindset of I'm going to create this one piece of value, this one piece of value, this one a thousand times, two thousand times, four thousand times. And understand it's that layering of that value over time that makes you the individual, a potential viral sensation in whatever realm that you might live in. Right. That one piece of content wasn't extraordinary. The fact that you showed up for 5, 10, 15 years consistently makes you extraordinary. And that's what people remember. That's what people, who they want to talk to, that's why they want to be involved in whatever that personal or business brand is, that is, that can do that. So quit chasing being viral and chase being of value being of significance to your audience.

I love that.

Todd.

I think mindset overall is kind of what we were talking about before with like defining good content. I think this kind of weaves into that. But I, I want to, I want to kind of piggyback on what Max was saying about like creating product content versus, like educational content. I like to talk about this as in, in the form of like, product association. When I'm, when I'm in like the ideation stage of any of these series that I'm creating with, with my subject matter experts, I try to figure out how can I associate the product without taking away from the actual content itself and more so than actually taking away. But like, how can I make the product natural into whatever that series is? So like, I use three Minute Sales school a lot as an example because I think it's one of the better examples that I have of this. But like I said, like, he, he does these email rewrites. Okay. So like picture, you know, someone submits an email, he has three minutes to rewrite that email and then we have to pick a winner based on that. Right. Our tool grades emails, like with AI, that's one of it, gives emails a score. So without our tool, that game that we're playing is just opinion, right? So like the tool is a necessity to the format of the show and without it, it doesn't make any sense. And the beauty is like, as people watch and watch and watch and watch and he continues to win. And like, they see our tool as the score, people associate the winning emails with the tool and people that don't even know what the tool is. A lot of. A lot of times, like, we'll get DMS that'll say, like, hey, I like your show, but, like, what was the tool that you used? Like, that was interesting. What was so, like, product association, but in a way that adds to the content instead of take takes away from it.

I love that. My answer to this in terms of the mindset is simple, is that we've been talking a lot today about. And it goes back to what I was saying before Max, when you prompted me about this. You know, as we start looking toward the diversification of content and the types of content that we can put out there and getting quicker and snappier and more gamified, I think the thing that people need to remember is that there is one evergreen mindset that will never change, is that if you aren't creating substantive content. And when I say substantive, I mean it's meaty, it's thorough, it's accurate, it's transparent, and it's built 100% for the needs of your audience. You're not doing vanity work here. You're not just doing giggles and stuff because it makes you laugh. Everything you put together is done in service of the humans you are meant to be helping. So the mindset is quality. The mindset is actual substance. You could have the funniest videos of all time, but if it's the funniest videos that never address the true problems or questions that your buyers have about what it is that you do or sell or the thing that you specialize in, you're done. That's it. It's just not gonna work. You. It's kind of like when people are like, I'm gonna build stuff. It's for brand awareness. It's different. I'm like, what do you want them to become aware of your brand? So they ask you to. To go to brunch. Like, why do you want them to be aware of your brand? True guy.

Yeah. I like brunch. I'm just.

I love brunch. I'm a girl. I love brunch.

You know what I really like, though? I really like that we've done this entire episode, and I do feel like if we go back and listen to it again, that Liz has actually said the words humans more than I have this episode, and that was the first time that I said humans this entire episode.

Human brunch.

Doing your work, George. You're welcome. And on that note, Todd, thank you so much for joining us on this episode. This week, we really appreciate it. We'll have to have you back.

Yes, I appreciate it as well. It's. It's perfectly unhinged.

There.

If you, along with other people, could go to your local finest podcast establishment and leave a review that says Perfectly Unhinged, five stars all the way.

Yeah, maybe Delightfully Unhinged is about.

I would frame that. Or a shirt. Yes.

100. I love it. Well, gentlemen, until next week, listeners. Also until next week. I have nothing else for you. Goodbye, everyone.

Thank you.

Seriously?

Like, what?

No limerick? No.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I need. Lace, I'm going to ask Chat GPT what I just wrote in this. In the thing. Hold on. We're gonna do it.

How are we gonna end with not no Palmer limerick.

Hold on, hold on. I'm getting one together. We're gonna make it happen. One second.

I mean, I kept saying.

Server errors.

No, no, Todd. It hasn't happened for months, and it makes me sad.

You have been scolding me about poetry. I was scolded. You've put me off before I've been able to do poetry. Let's not pretend you're suddenly some poetry advocate.

I love poets.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm gonna get Chat GPT to give us the poem right now.

Oh, no, Max. Poetry. I'm a little bit nervous.

I'm a little bit worried because, like, when you said. You were literally talking, by the way, and you were laying it, like, down, and you said something about a meteor, and then Max leaned over to his mic, and I was like, no, Max, No, Max.

No, Max.

No, no, Max.

I think we were all wondering what was coming.

Oh, my God, please don't say anything, Max.

Hold on. I'm trying to chat. Huh?

What?

What?

What?

All right, all right, hold on. I'm telling Chat GPT. Write a poem about a perfectly unhinged human brunch with low resolution babies. All right, ready?

Use. Use the word Delightfully. Unhinged. Use delightful.

Okay, all right, all right. Okay. Hold on. About a delightfully. Oh, all right, all right. Here we go, Here we go.

We'll see if this stays in the episode.

Yes, it does.

Okay, Ready?

Yeah. Now, it's got to be in your, like, deepest of, you know, passionate poetry voices.

Okay, hold on. Let me see what I got. One second.

Okay.

How's the sound? Is this good? Do this.

I mean, are we all sitting in, like, where are we?

We're in church. Ready?

I mean, all the time. Okay, Max, read the poetry amidst a brunch.

Unhinged we sat with low res babies a delightful chat. Their pixels danced in laughter's grace in this whimsical pixelated place. The table adorned with Mitch Mc mismatched cheer plates askew cups without appear delightfully unhinged. We indulged and played in this brunch where norms begin to fade. Low res babies with their digital grace brought a surreal smile to each face. In their blurry world they found delight as we shared stories in pixelated delight Our conversation a kaleidoscope of thought. In this brunch where oddness was sought we babbled and giggled with hearts unbound in this whimsical world we have found they're using like the same exact words in every single Anyway. Mimosas sparkled in fractured beams as we dreamed improbable dreams with low resolution babies we let whimsy and wonder be our guide. The brunch was a canvas beautifully strange, a masterpiece in constant change. In this pixelated realm we felt alive with delightfully unhinged spirits to thrive. Last paragraph. So here's to the brunch that was wonderfully odd where pixels and chaos made us applaud in the company of Lorenz babies we say let's cherish this moment, come what may.

So. So I have to jump in here before I stop this record. I gotta jump in here before I turn this off because I don't know about anybody else, but I feel like I went from a monastery to a Scottish bar to an episode of like Harry Potter of some.

I was gonna say it was like Christmas.

I don't know. My. My mind is broke. The episode's over, everybody. Have a good night. And please don't have nightmares after that.

That's. Was that substantive content or low quality? Have we decided?

Okay, Hub Heroes, we've reached the end of another episode. Will Lord Lack continue to loom over the community, or will we be able to defeat him in the next episode of the Hub Heroes podcast? Make sure you tune in and find out in the next episode, make sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest episodes and and become part of the League of Heroes. FYI, if you're part of the League of Heroes, you'll get the show notes right in your inbox and they come with some hidden power up potential as well. Make sure you share this podcast with a friend, leave a review if you like what you're listening to, and use the hashtag Hub Heroes podcast on any of the socials and let us know what strategy conversation you'd like to listen into next. Until next time, when we meet and combine our forces, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble human. And, of course, always be looking for a way to be someone's hero.