Interview with Sonja Lyubomirsky | Rock Your Goddess Life

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Hello, everybody. Welcome to Rock your Goddess Life podcast. We are here with Sonia Liebermerski. Sonia is a distinguished professor of psychology at UC Riverside. She earned her bachelor's degree from Harvard University, her PhD in social psychology from Stanford University, where she began pioneering research on what truly makes people happy. She's the author of two groundbreaking books, the how of Happiness and the Myths of Happiness. And she has a brand new book coming out soon called how to Feel loved. So welcome, Sonia.

Thank you so much, Alexandra. I'm excited to have this conversation.

Yeah, I'm so excited to connect. As we were talking before the interview, like, my husband is a major fan of Sonia. I mean, he, like, her books are in the top. He's read thousands of books, and it's in the top list for his favorite book. So it's. It's so fun to be connecting.

Pleasure to hear that.

All right, so I do want to start off because we're going to be talking about kind of like the goddess journey, the heroine's journey. And I read in your story just with your mother of moving from Russia to the United States, and that she wasn't as happy. And that kind of sparked some of your, like, interest of, like, what makes people happy. So can you just talk about kind of the origins of how you've gotten to be one of the world's. That's Researchers of happiness?

Yeah. And actually, and also, I had a really unhappy childhood and adolescence, which I don't usually talk about, but, yeah. And I got really interested in. And then my mom was really unhappy, and I got really interested in, like, can people become happier? You know, is it even possible? You know, if with enough effort and intention, you know, can we. Can anyone become happier? And then when I went to grad school at Stanford, the very first day I met with my advisor. His name is Lee Ross, and he was one of the world's experts on conflict and negotiation. So kind of the opposite of happiness. But the very first day we met, we took a walk around campus and someone asked the question, probably him, what is the secret to happiness? Why are some people happier than others? I actually thought that's when it started. But my undergraduate advisor reminded me, I saw him a few years ago after 30 years, that I was really interested in happiness as an undergrad, and I just don't remember that. Anyway, and that started on this, started us doing research on, you know, like, what. What makes happy people tick? Like, what is different about happy people? So for the first 10 years of my career, I studied basically, people who are sort of happier versus less happy. Kind of what is really different about them? And then journalists kept asking me, like, well, what can we, like, tell our readers about what they can do to be happier? So, for example, I found that happier people are less likely to compare themselves to others and that happier people are more grateful. But that doesn't mean that if you are unhappy and then you do those things, you'll become happier, because those are correlations. And so I realized, like, what I really need to do is to do experiments where I randomly assign some people to express gratitude and other people to not compare themselves to others. And it's really only the experimental approach that can get us that answer. And so that's what I've been doing for 28 years or something. We call them happiness interventions. So see what makes people happy. So they're like clinical trials, but instead of testing like a vaccine or a medication, we're testing happiness practices.

That's incredible. So it was kind of out of a desire for you to want to become happier. This was also an internal maybe struggle, but also you wanted to do it for yourself and for your family.

Absolutely. Myself and my family. And then. But then, of course, anyone can benefit from this. Yeah. I mean, because some people don't believe you can be happier. Actually, my brother, when I wrote my first book, which is called the how of Happiness, I argue in the. He. He read it, and I argue in that book that you can become happier. You can like, learn to sort of train yourself to be happier. And he said, oh, that's so weird. Like, I thought happiness is something. You either have it or you don't. And I'm like, really? My own brother believes this, but I guess a lot of people believe that. And there is a genetic component to happiness, so there is that, but there's a genetic component to any human trait. So it doesn't mean you can't, like, overcome it, you can't raise it. So, yeah, that's how it started when.

It'S like epigenetics, Right? Like epigenetics. If you have a certain predisposition for something physio. Physiologically. Right. That you have to have the environment. So it's. Is it similar with happiness too? Like, okay, maybe a predisposition, but if the environment is different, then you. I think. What is it? The 40. 40% rule? Is that what you call it?

Yeah, I mean, I. I don't like to use that number anymore because it's just specific. It's. It's probably. I don't know. I Don't know what the number is really. No one knows. But it's definitely one of the big contributors to happiness is your genetics. But as you say, the environment makes a difference. Like, genes can be turned on and off. And also really what's important is what you do can make a difference. Right? So it's kind of like. Like, I like to use the. An example of like a. A set point for weight. You know, some people just like, it's just easy for them to remain, like, skinny. Like, they don't really have to think about it, you know. And other people, it's really not easy. Like, they really have to watch their, you know, what they eat and exercise, like, with intention. But it doesn't mean that the people whose set point for weight is higher than they, like, can't like, maintain a lower weight. Like, it just. It just. They have to work harder at it. And then once you work, work at it, it can become a habit and becomes easier over time. So same thing with happiness, right? So some people are just kind of less lucky that they're kind of set. I call it a set range for happiness is a little like lower versus higher. So if your set range for happiness is like here, it just means you have to really be intentional about it and really work harder at it. But again, it can become a habit. So like, you can become a habit to sort of be more optimistic or be more grateful or do things that make you happy, like, like socialize with people. It turns out that social. Any kind of social interactions on average make people happier. Yeah.

That's amazing.

I love that.

And I think some people could feel like if you're like, oh my gosh, I just. It's hard for me. Like there's kind of like a. Well, kind of is a bummer, right? Like, I have to work harder because I know I have that with, like, health. Like, I'm just more sensitive. And there is times where I'm like, that's just kind of sucks. But then it's also like a superpower because you wouldn't probably do these practices, right?

Totally. And, you know, we're all lucky in some things, unlucky in other things. That's just how life is. And so, yeah, it is a bummer. But yeah, then you learn it's kind of like if English isn't your first language, people often become like, better writers because they're like, very intentional. And like, they. They kind of put more thought into writing. And so, yeah, you can actually become better at it, at happiness if you're not if it doesn't come naturally to you because you become like very. Yeah. Intentional and precise about it.

Okay, so I'm curious about your journey as well. So you decided you were going to start study happiness. Right. And I don't know, 1980s? 89. 89. Okay. And that this wasn't like popular then, this was not mainstream. And you were also in a very male dominated field. Right. So what was that like for you? Was that like a. Was it a no brainer, I'm just going to jump in and do this or did that take courage? Did you have fear about it? What was that process like for you?

Such a good question. Thank you for asking. So when I was a grad student, yeah, I was very insecure about it. I, I felt like everyone was thinking, everyone was telling me like, oh, happiness is this fuzzy kind of unscientific thing like what are you doing? And I was at Stanford where like people I know, Amos Tversky was there who's like, you know, this incredible sort of figure in psychology. And like people were doing these like really amazing, like exciting, precise experiments and I'm like interviewing people who are happy and unhappy. So I just felt like, what am I doing? So looking back on it, like I'm so happy I did. So I think it did involve courage, but I think at the time I just kind of like did it. But I actually saw a friend from grad school years, years later and he's like, sonia, I'm so impressed about what you did in grad school. That took a lot of courage. I'm like, really? Yeah, I guess it did, but I didn't think of it that way at the time. But yeah, at the time there really wasn't a field of happiness. There's Ed Diener, who's kind of the father of happiness science. He was doing research on, well being mostly correlational research and he was the only one, so it was really just him. And then I started doing these experiments and so now it's this like huge field that cuts not just across psychology, but other neuroscience, other areas. Yeah, it's like this huge field. Lots of people are now are doing happiness interventions. So years. 30 years.

But you were, I mean you were essentially like a pioneer in this. I mean you, we have you to thank for a lot of this work.

Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

You probably wouldn't ever say that, but we can say that about you.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, because it's. And it's also I think brings like, I love the science because it brings Somebody's practice into, into the science. Right. It's not some woo woo, like there's something wrong with me or you're weird because you keep a gratitude journal or you imagine your best self or you practice acts of kindness. Like I talk a little bit about how you are actually researching this, improving that these things are good for our well being and happiness.

And I think the science is so important. In fact I give a lot of talks on the subject and a lot of the audience I talk to are audiences like doctors or engineers and they really want the science. They don't like a self help guru talking about whether it's self help. Gurus have a lot of wisdom but I just try to. Everything is driven by an evidence base. The happiness interventions that my lab pioneered, you know, which as I mentioned were like basically like clinical trials but we're testing happiness practices. So we might randomly assign some people to write a gratitude, gratitude letters every week or maybe graduate or like we did the first study we did, we had people count their blessings so like write down five things that they're grateful for. But we varied whether they did it three times a week or once a week. And it turned out that it was only the once a week group that actually got happier and more grateful that three times a week turned out to be too much, maybe too, too often, too frequent, maybe it became mature. So that was interesting to find out. So now we do lots of studies like that sort of looking at kind of the, what we call the moderators. Like what are. Yeah, like what? How do we actually implement these strategies? Because on average, by the way, these are all average effects. You have to remember that scientific findings, at least in psychology, they're all about averages. So if I say to you it turns out that counting your blessings once a week is better than three times a week, it's an average. So for most people that's going to be true. But, but for some people it's not going to be true. And some people like to count their blessings every day. So. And that works for them. So it's an average. But now we're, you know, we've done so many studies, we actually are doing a gratitude study with AI like just to see if like some people just don't like to write gratitude letters. They're uncomfortable. So maybe we can ask like ChatGPT to help you write the gratitude letter and then like send it and then either like reveal that you used AI to help you or not reveal and see like the response to that. So we're Doing like so many studies like this. We found out later that it turns out just having a conversation with a stranger makes people happier. And other people have found this. So we're doing studies where we're having people like have conversations on zoom, you know, with strangers. So there's just so much to research, you know, and so many experiments that can be done. Not all the experiments have been done. Oh. Acts of kindness are even more powerful than writing gratitude letters. Ask people, for example, in the next four weeks, every Monday, do three acts of kindness for others that you don't normally do. And then people feel more connected, they feel good about themselves, they get happier doing acts of kindness. Or we ask people act like more like an extrovert this week or for the next four weeks and people get happier. Even introverts get happier when they're asked to act like an extrovert. So yeah, lots of questions remain to be answered.

Yeah, I love that. And then I think you also had some research that showed, I read that like you would think receiving the acts of kindness would make people happier, but the people who were giving it actually felt happier. Is that true?

Yeah, like sort of this, this cliche just better to give than to receive. In one study, we found that the receivers got happier like right away. It's like great to like get like a gift, but the, the givers stayed happier longer and so for as long as four months. So I think it's like, it just, it's more durable. It kind of gets inside of you, you know, gets under the skin. We actually has. It literally does get out of the under the skin. Because we've done studies where we collect blood from people who've done acts of kindness and people who do acts of kindness for others, they showed changes in their RNA gene expression. Like literally their gene expression changes so they have less pro inflammatory gene expression. So think like more inflammation is bad so they have less pro inflammatory gene expression. So it gets under the skin. The acts of kinds when you do it for others.

That is so fun. Okay, so then I have a question. Like I could have asked this beginning, but I think it's interesting and important. Happiness. How do we define happiness? How do we know if we're happy? Like some people are like, I don't know if I'm happy. I kind of feel happy or I feel happy, but I'm not happy about my life or my, I should feel like my life is great, but I don't feel happy about my life. Like how do we evaluate our life?

Sure. Yeah, great question. I mean, in fact, we probably should have started by kind of defining happiness. So there's lots of definitions of happiness. I define them in the way that researchers define them, which is that happiness really has two components. And the first component is like an emotional component, and it has to do with experiencing frequent positive emotions. Now, depending on the person, some people are like, they experience more joy or enthusiasm or excitement. Those are called high arousal positive emotions. Other people might experience more serenity and calm or curiosity, affection, pride. Depending on the person, it might be different kinds of positive emotions. So the more positive emotions you experience, the more frequently the happier you're going to be. Of course, negative emotions are really functional and adaptive in the right time, in the right moment. But when there's. When you experience them too much and chronically, then it's not adaptive. So that's one component is like the emotion component, and the second component is this feeling that your life is good. Sort of the sense that you're progressing towards your life goals, you're satisfied with your life. So that's what's called kind of a judgmental cognitive component. So. But you need both, like the frequent positive emotions and the sense that your life is going well.

Okay. So I'm also curious about your path of being like data science. Right. But you also, Brian had said to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you also said you're very intuitive. So I was like, I want to know about this. Of like, data science, analytical, brilliant in the mind. But then there's also this, like, heart intuitive soul experience. How have you bridged that? Have you ever bumped up against that in being in a science. The science world?

Yeah. Yeah. So actually, I've never really talked publicly about this, but I'm happy to do that today. So I had this. I mentioned I had this really unhappy childhood. I think I had really strong intuition. My mom certainly does. I think it's like, genetic. But I. I think I suppressed it because it was like, too much then. And I became, like, I say I became a scientist to suppress my intuition. So I'm like, always like science, rigorous science is the most important thing. And then really, it's like the last few years that I've really let the intuition kind of blossom. And it's now really strong. It's really powerful, almost too strong. Like, I will meet people or I'll meet, like a couple, and I'll think, oh, my God, this couple is like, all wrong for each other because it's so obvious. I don't know if you have this. It's so obvious. I can't even hang out with them because it's so. And I think, should I tell them? And sometimes I have told them, and sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't go well. People don't want to hear that. But sometimes it's so obvious, these people should know, or I'll meet a person. It's either very positive or sometimes very negative. So I have this very strong intuition, and I feel now I think they can kind of go together. There's scientific evidence that's very valid. I'm such a believer in the scientific method. But intuition, it's not based on magic. I mean, it's based on data. You meet someone and there's a lot of data points coming at you and how they're behaving and what they're saying. And so I think it's. Yes, it's just. It's data. It's data driven, too. I just. I'm just not sure how to identify that data. Right. So I think it's compa. They're compatible. They're not really, like, against each other. So I'm trying to figure that out right now.

I love that. Well, so a lot of, like, rock and goddess life is about, like, a lot of us have had those masculine traits, are really strong, and for us to be successful in all these things, to be in the modern world. But, like, there is that feminine calling where I would say intuition is there and, like, bubbling up. And the integration of both of those is like, I feel like is like the experience of being wholeness, of like, yes to the science, but also yes to the intuition and yes to our feminine gifts of, like, being able to see things like that. Right.

I want to take your program because I would love to think about and learn more about. Yeah. How to. How to integrate that, you know? Yeah, yeah. I totally believe. And we need the sort of both the masculine and the feminine energy, of course, and balance it together. So, yeah, Brian.

I've had this conversation a lot because, you know Brian, and he's very masculine, super masculine, but he's also very intuitive and he's very emotional and he's very sensitive. And so then I'm very feminine, but I also have a really strong masculine. So it's like that balance. And in our partnership of, like, me still staying feminine, but him allowing his masculine gifts and relying on his gifts and him celebrating my feminine, but also my masculine, like, I have a fierce masculine. And it's like that beautiful combination of integration for women and men. You Know, in the world, I'm like, that could change the world.

So beautiful. I actually took a workshop maybe a year ago on, like, the masculine feminine. Like, the polarity.

Yeah.

Was fascinating. And. And also how you can kind of switch at different moments. Right. Like, couldn't be masculine, he could be feminine. Yeah. It has to be this sort of polarity. And when you're both masculine or together or both feminine together, that doesn't quite work. No.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if you have that, then it's like two. You know, if a man's not masculine and you're in your feminine, you're like, yo, I need your masculine. You know? Or if they're too feminine, you're kind of like, what's with all this? What are we doing?

Yeah, but at certain moments it could work. But anyway, it's. It's really fascinating. I love to sort of think about that more, learn about that more.

Yeah, that's great. Well, I'm so excited, too. I'm so curious, like, what you will create with that, like, intuition, like, expressing that.

Right.

Of, like, that's just amazing because you have such that brilliant mind paired with the intuition. Like, it's, like, so incredible what you're going to create.

And I'm really also trying to be more, like, embodied because I'm so in my head all the time, and I have a lot of friends who are kind of teaching me. Like, I was at this kind of weekend kind of festival last weekend, and. And one of my friends was saying, like, can you just turn off your intelligence for the next 30 minutes? And then he's like, okay, how about, like, three minutes? Too much. Too. Too part of a goal challenge. But anyway, and just be, like, really embodied and be more in my body. So I also. I'm thinking of actually doing more research on that too, about how, like. Like, when I ask people to sort of express gratitude, maybe I also ask them to sort of feel it in their body. Like, where are they feeling it? You know, where. Heart or in their belly or in their cheeks or whatever. So. So I think that's also important part of. Of all of these practices.

Yeah, yeah. That's one of the elements. In Rocky, I was like, is sensuality. Sensuality could lead to sexuality, but sensuality is like that aliveness. Right. Of like, that embodiment that you're talking about. Of, like, there's that aliveness that I think is so beautiful in women and just innate in us that I do think has been potentially knocked out. Like, I think as little girls, we just Add that aliveness, that intuition, those things, and it's just kind of been, like. Like you said, maybe suppressed or repressed a little.

Totally. And I think as women get older, sometimes they kind of. Yeah, they kind of shut it down a bit. So that's another one of my, like, I don't know, causes that I want to work on. Like, talk to women. Talking to women about how, like, be more embodied and be more sensual as they get older. Um. So, you know.

Yeah, Yeah, I love that.

I love that.

My mom is. How old is my mom? She's 70. She'll be. I think she's 72. Sorry, Mom. 72, 73. She is, like, the most sensually, radiantly alive, like, woman, like, you know, like, she's not losing it. She is not losing it in her 70s. Of, like, she is keeping that alive. And it's. I'm like, that's how you do it.

My mom, when she was, like, 80, was telling me, she's like, sonia, you know, like, I want. I go to the grocery store and, like, these men are, like, constantly chatting me up in the grocery store, and I'm like, this is good, Mom. Like, you're obviously exuding something, like, very sensual and sexual, actually. Just walk.

That is awesome. And I love that. I love that you're just talking about that, because I think there is this idea you lose that as you get older, and you're not. It's just not true. I mean, you could. You could do that. You could choose to not embody it. But I mean, like, you're saying, like, it's there. Doesn't matter if you're 70, 80, 90. You know, I'm like, my grandma's 93, and I'm like, we need to get her totally.

But. And I don't know if we want to go into this topic, but just a lot of my friends, like, my age have said, like, they've just kind of hung it up on a hook. They're like, I'm done with, like, sexuality. I'm just like, I'm done. And I don't want to argue with them. Be like, no, no, don't be done. But, yeah, I think that we don't have to be done. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it's easier potentially to be done.

Yeah.

I mean, just with culture in life and the modern world and, like, just the pace and, like, it's harder to get into your sensuality and your sexuality. But it's like, I also, like, it's like, an area that I always just want to keep. Because I think there's an aliveness, like, there's life force that if I totally. I might be missing, I might just miss something.

It's the source. I really believe that it's the source of your, like, creativity and life force. I come. I completely agree.

That's why I'm always like, we human beings are creative inside of us, right? I mean, like, we are like, just like alive with like, alive and sensuality and sexuality. It's just like, who we are.

Totally agree with.

Yeah. So fun. Awesome. Okay, that wasn't on my list to talk about, but I love it. I'm curious of, like, you know, a lot of times in our heroine's journey, our goddess journey, there is like a dark night of the soul of like, kind of like, this isn't working anymore. I need to rebirth, recreate myself. Have you had that in your life? In.

If anything, can you explain that more? Like, what do you mean?

Yeah, well, just like anything. I mean, obviously you've been in your career for a long time, but you're like, okay, maybe this relationship isn't working or how I'm doing my career, or how I'm parenting my kids, or just how I'm living my life of like, I thought it was this way and I was winning. And then all of a sudden I just have this instinct inside like, that's not actually in alignment. And having the courage to like, recalibrate or realign.

Yeah, that makes totally. Although it's not necessarily like a bad thing. I think sometimes, like, things really are working and then you change or your kids change, changes. And I don't think it's like a failure to. To sort of switch to something different.

Totally. No, no, no, not a failure. More just like, oh, I thought it was this way, but then I. This is now the way. Like, realignment.

Exactly. It's just like we change. I had. Yeah. Again, like, sort of get a little personal. I had like an amazing 20, 27 year marriage and then sort of changed in a way that I felt like, you know, we needed to move to a different direction. And I don't think it's a failure at all. Like, it's a. It was a beautiful relationship. I still. We still really love each other. It's like a career. Like, when you change careers, you don't think it's a failure to have had that former. Just in our culture, there's this idea of like, oh, we have to like, stay with the same person forever. And then kids, of course, like, grow up and totally change. So, well, there's another thing that I heard from Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda is a little bit of, like, a role model for me. There's not a lot of women who are a lot older that are role models. I wish there were more. So. Yeah, but she said she had three husbands. And she said, I wish I hadn't had three husbands. I, you know, I wish I'd only had one. But, like, what are the chances that Mr. Right in your 20s is the same? Like, is also Mr. Right when you're raising children, and it's also Mr. Right in your 70s? Like, what are the. I mean, some. Sometimes you. You get luck out and it's the same person, but it's often not. So anyway, so, like, things. Things change.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that reframe, too, because I think that's what stops women from making different choices of that, like, okay, I made this decision, and this is where my life was going. And, you know, I want to do something different. And it's like giving women permission to, like, allow themselves to be fully expressed and to go. To do that. Yeah. Awesome. Okay, so what are some of your, like, personal practices? You've done this research for decades. What is it, like, that you do that has really anchored you into, like, increasing your. Your happiness?

Yeah, I mean, so many things. I mean, gratitude is definitely one of them. I'm really a big fan of gratitude. Like, this very genuine. Right? It's. It's really genuine. Like, I'm really grateful for my life and, like, keep reminding myself. It's hard to keep reminding myself. But I'm also. And this is what I'm really focusing more. More recently on is sort of the social life. So really, we're finding that almost every intervention that works to make people happier works because it helps people connect with others and feel connected. So I'm really into, like, doing whatever you can to feel more connected to other people. By the way, it also could be to yourself or to God or, you know, other people, other objects, but usually it's other people. And so I'm very much into connection and also kind of deep in my new book, how to Feel Loved is about this sort of having real, authentic, deep conversations. I'm done with small talk. Like, I hate small talk. I understand sometimes you need a little bit of social lubricant when you first meet someone, but really authentic conversations with people. And I'll ask people personal questions. Research shows that it turns out that we think, like, oh, we don't want to ask Anyone, Anything personal, because we're going to be seen as too intrusive or probing. And it turns out that, on average, people want to be asked those questions. We want to be heard and seen. We don't want to have small talk. And so I'm really into that, really into authentic conversations. I'm also really into cuddling and physical touch. I think there's just not enough of that in our society. And my friends and my kids, we just cuddle, like, a lot. I just think that's beautiful. And I get comments about that. They're like, you know, maybe you shouldn't cuddle with your kids so much. They're, like, too old. I'm like, really? I mean, that's a cultural thing. This idea that, like, after a certain age, you don't touch your children, you know, you don't touch your friends. It's inappropriate. So I just think it's beautiful. It's so warm and loving and, like, showing love and warmth to people is like. I don't know. To me, that's like. That's happiness. Mm.

Is that your love language, too? Did you. Have you done.

It definitely is. I mean, it definitely is. But I have a lot to say about the love languages. They're not completely valid, but they're nice heuristic. So. Yeah, my love language is not scientifically valid. Yeah, but I mean, they don't really. Well, you know, I could go on about that, but it doesn't matter because it's a nice heuristic. And we. We do have different love languages. It just does. What's. What's sort of what's wrong about the. What we hear about them is that matching in your love language is actually not important. So basically, it doesn't predict longevity of relationship, really. What. It turns out that everyone wants the same love languages. And the more the better, right? The more. Yeah.

All of them, Right?

Yeah. Like, if they express 10 different love languages, that's even better. Right? So we just want more expressions of love. It doesn't have to be like, a match, but. But, yeah, mine is physical touch. I say physical touch and words of affirmation are my top two.

That's funny. That's. That's Brian's for sure. That's really funny. Used to be, like, it was physical touch and presence, and then I went after having kids and stuff, it was like acts of service.

Yeah.

Was like, loud and clear. That's all I want.

That's funny. Especially when they were little. Well, it turns out there's two love languages most People prefer. So it's not. I mean, yes, we have some that we prefer more than others, but there's the top two for pretty much everyone turns out to be words of affirmation and quality time. So those are kind of the two most popular love languages that we kind of all want. I mean, and it's sort of, of course, like, who doesn't want quality time? Right. So, yeah, totally. Then there's others that we might differ on. So. Yeah, it's a. It's a fun topic.

Yeah. Okay. So then the connection is also, obviously, this. You have a new book coming out, which I'm excited about interviewing you again in February. So when it comes out. February.

Yes.

You can buy it now if you want. Highly recommend it, all the books. And so connection, you know, I mean, I think in our culture. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Right. Is like that. And I know you've talked about it. Is a lot of times we go for wealth, power, fame, beauty. Like, we like to. Everybody's like, oh, yeah, those things don't matter. But yet still people have these impulse to, like, if. If I really was wealthy and I really was beautiful, and I really was, then I would be happier. You know the myth.

Yeah.

But that at the end of it is. Or that what your research is showing, that connection is one of the most important. Is that true or not the most important?

I mean, the most.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, we all strive for those other things, like the power, beauty, popularity, you know, fame, money, success. And I still chase those things, too. Like, we kind of all do. And it's. You can argue, sort of evolutionarily adaptive that, you know, we're chasing those things. I would say the key to happiness really is feeling connected and loved, which is why my new book is called how to Feel Loved with Harry Reese, my co author. And it's. And it's really about, like. Yeah, like, a lot of us. Most. I mean, most of us are loved, but just because you are loved, it doesn't mean you feel loved. And most people that I talk to, there's at least one relationship that they want to feel more loved in. So it could be their partner, adult child, colleague, friend, you know. And so our book is about how to. How to help people feel more loved and how to help other people feel more loved. And it sort of has to do with really, the conversations that you have with others. I already mentioned having deep, authentic conversations where you. The idea is kind of like we all have walls around ourselves. We all walk around with these walls, and they protect ourselves. But if you lower your walls and help other people lower their walls, you will feel more loved. And one reason is, like, you need to share more of yourself. And the idea is that you can never really feel loved if other people don't know who you sort of really are on the inside. Right. Because you'll always wonder, if they really knew me, they would love me. Right. So you have to share, and it doesn't have to be your deepest secrets or traumas, but it can just be, like, something authentic, like how maybe you're struggling today, or maybe you. This is how I really feel about X or Y, you know, so you share and then. And then you also. And then when they share, you truly listen and show curiosity. And that's how it helps other people to sort of lower their walls, you know, when they see that they're really heard and seen, you know, and they will help them. So. So basically, you sort of feel more love when you're kind of truly, like, listening and sharing to each other. So it's actually kind of simple but profound. And anyway, so that's. That's kind of the bottom line.

And then I. I love this conversation. I. I'm with you on the small talk and authenticity. I'm like, let's just dive into it. Like, life is short. Like, I want to know about you. You know, I don't need to know, like, everything about you, but, like, let's have the real conversation. But what do you think is stopping people from having these authentic conversations? Do you think it's fear of being judged? Like, what. What is the hindrance?

Yeah, I think it's fear. I think, again, we have these walls around us that we build to protect ourselves. Because we're afraid. Yeah, we're afraid that if someone. Someone sees more of us somehow. Yeah. Like, we'll be judged. We'll be misunderstood. And maybe it's also maybe a habit. You know, it's sort of a habit always. And I certainly know people who almost never lower those walls. They almost never say anything, like, really private about themselves. But then if you try it, it's a little bit like a phobia. Like, if you're afraid of snakes, you have to go and hold. Hold the snake. And then you lose that phobia of snakes. You try it and you realize, like, people really. Yeah, like good people. I mean, not everyone, maybe, but people, like, love to have those conversations, and they want to see you and hear you, you know, And. And so anyway, I would. I Would. I would. I would guess, challenge people who never open up to. Try to open up, obviously to the right person, you know, and maybe a little bit at a time, and hopefully they have a good experience. And they're like, wow, like, I feel really close to you now. You know, I feel really seen, which is something they may not really experience before. You can't really feel that close to someone when you have that wall around you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that there's just that, at least for me. This. I mean, my very first blog when I started was. I was 25 maybe, and it was called Live Out Loud. And I was like, done hiding. Like, I was like, you know, these walls that you're talking about, I'm like, I had these walls. I was a Division 1 volleyball player and I just had this thing and I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. So then my life has always been just like, I'm just gonna be real. And I've had challenges. Like, you know, I'm married to Brian, who's like genius level intelligence, like super smarty pants, you know, and I don't have the. I have my own intelligence. Not him. You know, I'd have moments where I'm like, I'm just not as smart, you know, like a little intimidated. And I'm like, there's. I think people sometimes just don't share themselves because they're fearful of not being smart enough or being stupid or, you know, all these reasons that is just not true because people then like you more if they get to see you. You know, there's like a man when you're vulnerable.

And by the way, I could see you have. You just have a different type of intelligence. Right? We all have different kinds of intelligences. But yeah, like, people like you more when you're. When you're more vulnerable or you share of yourself or you admit a mistake or you admit. Yeah, you admit something that you're insecure about. And actually, it takes strength, right. It takes strength and courage to admit an insecurity to someone else. Yeah, totally. Insecurity again. I have this strong intuition, right. The insecurities are so obvious, right. Talking to someone for two minutes about their insecurities. Right. And it's fine. We all have them. We all have them.

Yes, for sure.

But if it takes. It takes strength and courage to actually sort of acknowledge that, you know, out loud. So living. I love that. Living out loud.

Yeah. That is so fun. Okay, so I want to go back to you because I'm curious. I was just Contemplating this. The other day you were saying you like touching your friends or cuddling with your friends and like the physical touch I was doing, I was thinking about this literally just two days ago. Like I touch my kids and you know, like we all sleep in the same room. Like we all sleep in the same bed. We're all like, we're very tight like that. Like it's just, you know, my kids, my son's 13 and my daughter's 8. You know, we're like, should he not? We're like, it's like so sweet. It's sweet.

It's so sweet. Yeah, no, same with me because my ex actually was like, I think you should wean our kids from like you know, sleeping with you or, or cuddling. And I'm like, like my 26 year old will cuddle with me. She's like, mom, can we cuddle? And he's like, it's appropriate because she's 26. I'm like, what? You know, it's, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. Like more people should be doing that.

Okay, so what does that look like? I'm just like fast forwarding because it's easier for me to imagine the kids. Right. And then I always. You're saying your friends. I Im like tribes ancestrally, like everybody being around and touching and laughing and braiding hair and like playing with the kid. Like there's just. That was part of our culture or like evolution maybe. So what does that look like now in the modern world? Like what does that look like for you if you're willing to share? Like cuddling with your 26?

Sure, sure, sure. Well, first of all, I do think there's all these cultural norms now where. And there are some cultures that are really kind of more distant and they're not as emotional. Right. You don't like explosive express that. So yeah, like with my kid, like we'll just like, we'll have this couch which is kind of like a cuddle puddle couch. And we'll like either sit or even like lie down, just like full body cuddles. And we'll, we'll chat. We have this great, these great conversations while we're cuddling. Sometimes I'll fall asleep because I'm so tired all the time because I work a lot. So I'll be like, I call it cuddle sleeping. I'll fall asleep for like a half hour or more. And they're like, mom, you're asleep. Like, oh, I love this. Yeah, we like that's how we, yeah, our ancestors like, that's what they did. Like, people just all slept in the same room. You know, my dad. I mean, I wouldn't want to do this, but he said at one point, this was in the Soviet Union, there was, like, 20 people in the same room sleeping. I mean, it was horrible, Right, because you just didn't have, you know, space. But, you know, that's not ideal. But. But they're all obviously very close and cuddly because you have to be, you know, so.

Yeah, we lived in Bali for a year, and they, like, all. They. I mean, because they had to.

Right.

But it was, like, all such small. Like, everybody just lived in one little room.

Yeah.

And I was like, that just makes more sense that everybody have, like, a giant house and everybody has their own space. And then there's also, like, the oxytocin.

Right, totally.

Which is increase your happiness.

Totally.

That's natural. Like a way. Just an easy way to boost your happiness. Yes.

Yeah, Absolutely. Absolutely. And then, of course, it starts with babies, right. So we have this sort of norm, like, oh, maybe. I mean, lots of people sleep with their babies, but lots of people don't. And I actually couldn't. I mean, I love sleeping with my babies, but then I really couldn't sleep with them. I was just too, you know, like. Because as a mom, you're just, like, alert. A little sound. So we actually did like, train them to sleep in a different room, and then they got older. Then I could, like, sleep with them again. But it's beautiful. I think it's beautiful.

Yeah. I love. I mean, I slept with my babies. They slept. I mean, like, they co. Slept with me. Like, it was. I just found it easier for me to do, and I just loved it. Like, it was. And I know it's not for everyone, and everybody has their own thing, but it's. It was, like, really like a sacred time for me. Like, I look back and I'm like, oh, that was just. I wish I could go back. I mean, the other day, I said to Brian, I'm like, I had a dream. We had a baby. And he looked at me, and he's like. I'm like, I. I could get pregnant right now. You know? And he was like, let's be realistic here. You're 46 and I'm 51. I'm like, it's possible.

I had my last kid at 46, so.

No, you didn't.

44 and 46. Yeah. It was kind of a surprise.

Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.

Yeah. And I had this High risk doctor. Because you have to have a high risk doctor if you're in your 40s. And he's like, no, like a lot of women in their 40s could. Would be getting pregnant having just most of them are trying because can't or they're done. And the statistics about fertility come from fertility clinics which are very self selected samples. So, yeah, I'm not necessarily recommending that to everyone, but. But it was beautiful. My pregnancies were incredibly healthy. So there you go.

How. What's the difference between your oldest and your youngest?

I had. Yeah, very. So they're. Right now they're 12, 14, 24, 26. So it was like a 10, 12 year difference or 14 year difference. It is a beautiful thing. But I'm not suggesting.

I love that, Sonia. I love that so much. I don't. I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna do that. But.

But I do. You're like, Brian. And I'm like, like Sonia told me.

Like, it's on you. He's like, that is on you.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Because I got a beautiful lesson, a.

Beautiful lesson for my older kids. They're so close to. And yeah, it was, it's. It's a gift to, to the older kids too.

Yeah. So sweet. That's amazing, Sonia. I love that. I think that that's the oldest person that I know that's had a baby. 46.

Yeah. And of course it happens and I guess again happens and in other cultures. I'm not sure if it can happen, like if it's for your first child, you know, but once you have.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

That is great. I love that. I'm also just going to plant that in my mind too, just as the kids get older too. That cuddling of like, also you've inspired me just to do that even more. I think I've read you read somewhere that you were just saying, like just walking by and like just touching. Right. Just little things like passing people, your partners, kids, friends.

Yeah, I know. Because of the norms, like when I'm at work, I have to kind of hold my arms like down because otherwise I'll kind of do like little touches on the shoulder or something because I'm just. It's just so natural to me. And so I don't want to like offend anyone, you know, whatever, like in a professional setting. But I have a lot of friends that were just all very physical and touchy and it's just like very normal. So I love that.

Yeah, yeah. It reminds me of. I played Volleyball in college, and we used to just hit each other's butts. Like, I hit people's butts a lot. You know, like, let's go. And we had somebody on our team. She's like, a dear friend of mine or whatever. We were at an event and I was, like, all excited, and I was like, sorry, I thought I was in volleyball for a second. She's like, I'm totally fine. That was awesome. You can do that any day.

I know. I kind of wish. Yeah, I wish that was sort of more of a normal. That was appropriate. We also, by the way, we also say I love you to each other a lot. My friends and I. Or, you know, and certainly my kids, family. And that's, again, something that a lot of people don't do. And I was like, it's so. It's beautiful. Like, we do each other and we just say it a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah. I wish people said that more. Yeah.

Yeah. That's great. Even, like, I don't know if you. I feel like you were just jumping on. When I was talking to Monica. She's like our kind of business manager, assistant. We were just talking. She's helping me, and I'm like, love you. She's like, I love you. I don't know if you heard that.

When we jumped off. I did hear us talking about the rain because it is raining in Santa Monica for the first time in a month. Right now. I'm looking at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Like, it makes you feel so. So connected and special and, like, intimate and, like, just happy. Yeah. From others. So. Yeah. That I just urge everyone right today, say I love you to at least once to someone and not just romantic partner, you know.

Yeah.

Or to your child.

That's great. Okay, so then a question for you. If you had, like, the Goddess of Happiness, right. You had this image of you, like, what would she be like right now? Or what would she be, like, guiding you to create more in your life. Life. Like, if you've had, like, this, you know, higher self.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, kind of like what we were talking about. Well, try to be more present, which, you know, I have. Again, I'm in my head so much that I'm, like, planning. And so it's. Sometimes it's hard for me to sort of slow down and be sort of present. You know, reach out more to friends or family. You know, people have more social interactions. Yeah. Feel. Feel the gratitude, like, in your heart as much as you can. And, you know, I have a lot of stress, like, because I just work stress, like, all the time because there's so much going on. And so kind of reminding myself to, like, yeah, like, slow down and breathe. The stress is like, the stuff is not going to go away. Like, it's just happening. So it's actually. The other day I just said to myself, I'm going to wake up tomorrow morning and I'm just not going to be, like, anxious anymore. And it kind of worked. I mean, like, 90, 95% of the time. So I'm like, it's still. All this stuff is still happening and, like, being anxious about it is not helping. So, yeah, sort of someone to kind of help me, like, handle stress. I think we all have stress. So that's a. That's a universal. So, I mean. Yeah. But really connecting, having those authentic conversations, being. Being real. Being authentic. I really, you know, also there's another advantage of being real because people. I'm. I'm one of those people who's very real. And people will tell me that they're like, oh, I really like the fact that you're so real. Is that when I. When I give someone a compliment, they really believe it. You know, flattering and being positive all the time. And then I'll also say things that are not compliments. Like, I'll, you know, whatever. Not like criticism, but I'll. I'll say something honest. So people believe you more. Right. When you're. When you're real. Because you say. Sometimes you say some negative things and, you know, but positive, too. So otherwise, sometimes you kind of question if someone is being, like, positive all the time.

Yeah. Like, they trust you. They trust that you're going to give them.

Exactly. Exactly.

But if it was always like, hey, you're amazing, you're amazing. You're amazing. You're amazing. You're like, do they really think that or they're just saying it?

Yeah. Yeah. If they only say positive things. Right. It's a little. A little suspicious. Right.

And then. So I'm curious on just the. Our life. Right. Like, I think a lot of times we think intensity of, like, the big things. We get the job, we get the marriage, we have the wedding, we have the kid. Like, you get the house or, you know, whatever it is like that. That's, like, what we're going for. But is it like. Is it frequency over intensity? What would you. Where would you have that spectrum be?

Well, there's actually a paper from Ed Diener, you know, the founder of the science of well being that I think it's called something like. It's the frequency, not the intensity that contributes to happiness. So in terms of if you have to choose moments, I guess happy moments that add up, that frequency is better than intensity. That's a research finding, but I certainly am someone who loves intensity. But if you have too much, then you adapt. So my second book, the Myths of Happiness, a lot of that is about this concept called hedonic adaptation, where we adapt especially to positive things. We adapt pretty quickly. Right. So you go to an amazing meal, it's like amazing. And then, like, if you do that, you know, once a week or twice a week, like, it's not going to be as amazing anymore. Right. You sort of adapt to that. You adapt to almost anything, including marriage, including jobs. So. So intensity actually can be, quote, harmful. Right. Because it could make other things, like, seem not as exciting or good. Right, right. This amazing experience and then. Or amazing vacation and the next few vacations that aren't so intense might like, yeah. Pale by comparison. So. So yes, you have to be careful about having too many intense moments.

Yeah. That's so interesting. I was thinking about that because Brian just took the kids. He's never taken the kids. And he took them for like, you know, nine days. And they went literally, like, intensity to the, like every, like the Ryder Cup. I mean, like all of these things, right. And then they come back and they're kind of like, well, this is boring.

And hopefully they get over that. Right? But you're right. Well, here's another example. People who are wealthy or kind of when you get people to think about money, they. They are less likely to savor the little things in life. And it's sort of sort of similar. Like, if you could have like, almost anything you want, then you don't enjoy, like, the little piece of chocolate or like the sun, the sun on your shoulders. You know, you sort of like it. Enjoyed those little moments doesn't mean that it's going to be true for everyone. You have to kind of cultivate that. But it's a little bit similar where, like, if you have a lot of intensity, you're less likely to kind of savor the little things in life.

Mm, yeah, that makes sense. And then, so you were just saying, like, waking up, I'm not anxious. Is there, like, science to show, like, that you can just act as if, like, literally these little practices and you kind of rewire your nervous system and your brain to become a different person? In some ways, you know, I Don't.

Know any specific studies. There might be some where you just kind of. Because people talk about, like, let's just choose happiness. I'm just going to choose happy today. But I. So I've never actually seen those studies, but maybe I should do them because I think it can work. You're just like, I'm just not going to be anxious and I'm. But maybe you need more. I don't know guidelines for how to do that, but you can. Yeah, you can kind of choose to be different or like, today I'm just going to be more confident. There's some work on, like, if you kind of like. What's the word? When you sort of pretend.

Yeah.

Becomes more natural over time. At first you're like pretending to be confident, and then you're like, oh, wow, I am confident. Kind of like people have imposter syndrome, like, at a new job. And then I have to kind of pretend that, like, this is. Something comes naturally to them. And then after a while it does, you know, so there is some work on that.

And then isn't there, like, there's a study or something where, like, you imagine playing a piano and then they could play the piano. Like, they didn't actually have to play the piano.

Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't know about that. That's. That's interesting. Well, you have to have the skills, right?

I feel like that was Ellen Langer. Yeah, you have to have the skills. So maybe just that you weren't a great piano player. I don't know. Yeah, maybe I'm just curious about it because it's. I noticed that and I was just curious on the science because I noticed for me, if I can change my perception of what I'm thinking or how I perceive my life, I can then energetically be different if I'm perceiving. You know what I mean? So it's like the more that I can do that, the more that I feel different.

Yeah, totally.

You gotta flip that switch.

And athlete. I mean, athletes do this too, right? They will, like, visualize whatever, doing something really well and then they do it. So I. Again, I don't know. I'm not really an athlete myself, but I don't really know how that works.

But yeah, yeah, I've done that. I used to visualize over and over and over and over and over and over until it was like it became.

But you. You had the skills, right? So it's like, yeah, the skills. But then just. Because sometimes again it's. Or like you're like you're a dancer and you get, if you get too self conscious, right. You just can't do it. Like you can freeze.

Totally actor. Right.

But you just have to like. Yeah, like jump into the deep end of the pool, basically. Like just do it. Yeah, yeah.

And. But would you also say that's the same with a lot of these practices, right? Like you have that happiness can be learned. You have gratitude, cultivate optimism, release, overthinking, comparison, connection, forgive, savor all these things. Sometimes you, a lot of times, I mean, start those things. We are not good at them or they feel awkward.

Yeah, totally, totally does. It doesn't feel like a good fit. We. We have this measure of fit which is how natural does it feel, how enjoyable and how meaningful. And so sometimes, yeah, you just don't feel that right away. Or maybe it feels meaningful but you're not really enjoying it yet. It doesn't feel natural. Yeah. So I absolutely. I'm a big believer that one needs to just kind of do it. Just do it and then do it repeatedly. Same thing with like. Yeah, like running. Like I remember I read somewhere you have to run for 11 weeks every, you know, almost every day before it sort of feels natural. You sort of become a runner. But yeah, you have to kind of take on the role. Like, and actually I forget who, who did this research. I think Carol Dweck, who did these studies where like when you call yourself like I'm a runner or like I'm good at math, you know, or like, yeah, like I'm blah, blah. Like you. Yeah. You use that term like it's like it's a trait and then you sort of become that person. So yeah, so that's.

And then you do that same thing for some of these practices, happiness practices. Right. In your books of like if you. It's like maybe feels uncomfortable but then you just keep practicing it for. Would you say 11. How long should you give a practice?

Yeah, I don't know. I mean the 11 weeks is supposed to be for running and even that, I think that's not like a study. I'm just writing. By the way, I'm writing notes because I'm getting ideas for studies from this.

Oh good. Yay. I look forward to reading them.

Yeah. So I don't know how long it takes. I think it's gonna. We could do a study to find out. So I just, I would just say, yeah, just. Just try it and just keep trying it. I would say at least, at least several weeks, not several months.

And then if you had to like in the market we have like multiple disciplines, which is, you know, kind of disciplines, but disciplines of like practices. If you had to like guide a woman to do one a day, would it be connection? Would you say connection being the biggest like practice for happiness increasing?

If I had to choose one.

Okay, three. Let's do three.

Yeah. I would say connection, like connect with someone, like in an authentic way. Share and listen. That's from my book how to feel Loved. And I, I guess another would be gratitude. Just which is really hard to keep practicing because. Yeah, it's just hard to like, you have to really call it up again and again. And then the third one. Yeah, I'm not sure because there's so many, there's so many. I think it's going to depend. The third one is going to be that wild card. You can choose whether you choose.

Yeah, yeah.

Goal, physical exercise, meditation, acts of kindness. It could be, it could be so many things. So yeah, the third one you choose.

Okay, awesome. And then I have one more question on. So in the program we have people create their wildly important sacred highest aim. Right. So they're one like heart's desire. Do you have tips on like how like goal setting. How would somebody, you know, like let's say somebody wants to. My mom wants to find a partner. Right. Like that's her wish. She's like, you know, so does Monica wants to have a partner. And what would you say? What's the best way to have the framework around that because we can crave them or like I need to have this in order to be whole. What, what's your tips for how to kind of.

Wow, good question. Yeah. Cause I, I, I don't love the. Yeah. Like I'm not going to be happy unless I find a partner.

So a hundred percent.

So I think you.

But it's still like a yearning of like I really would like to create this. I'd like to start a business. I'd really like to have, have a child.

So I guess it starts with like self compassion and self love where you and, and security about yourself. Like, like I am solid. Like I have like the secure core self esteem. I don't necessarily need that. But I, I wish, I think I'm worthy of a partner. I'm worthy of this business. And then you, yeah, then I guess you kind of inhabit that. Like I am. Yeah. Someone worthy. So when you ask for things, it's like you, my coach actually taught me this. You, when you ask a partner for something, it's not like, oh, it's not like a neediness. It's like, I'm worthy of this, you know? Yeah. And then. Yeah. And then I would say baby steps. You know, you sort of do all these little baby steps. You break it down. So whether it's, you know, you put yourself out there and you go and meet a lot of people and so, yeah, like breaking down into baby steps or whether it's a. Starting a business. Right. Or what's like the first steps you have to do. So, yeah, I guess that would be my.

I like that. I like that. I really like the self worth. I think that's an important piece for everyone, but for women because we tend to be, we can be people pleasers or we can, you know, do over, overdo it. And then it's like, no, I. I'm worthy of this. Like to not feel bad for the things that you want to create in your life.

Totally. Yeah. It's not a neediness, it's a. I'm worthy of this. Yeah.

Which I've had to work on and I'm still working on.

Totally, totally.

It's a process. Okay, awesome. So I know that you have, you have a new thing that you're doing, the Happiness Experience. Can you talk about that for people to go join you and connect?

I have a business partner, Lauren, who's a, Who's a coach, who's a brilliant. And so we partnered together to create something we called the Happiness Experience, which is a membership that you join and it just goes on kind of forever. You can join anytime. And every week we have 30 minutes a week where we present a new happiness tool. And it's like a community that gets together on Zoom, just 30 minutes a week and we talk about new happiness tools. So actually this week it's going to be. Or on Friday we're going to do this. It's going to be having. Sharing in a conversation last week a little bit about gratitude. And then we also have once a week, like a coaching conversation, 30 minutes, which is optional. So that's called the Happiness Experience. So hopefully you'll drop a link to that.

Yeah, yeah.

And then the other thing, which is like a very light touch, which is I have a newsletter where I share all these happiness tools and kind of my new insights about happiness. And it's very accessible. I actually have someone who helps me write it in this very accessible, engaging way. It's brief. So every two weeks a newsletter. So I would love folks to sign up for my newsletter.

Awesome. And is that on your website?

These are.

We'll put a link below so you'll be able to see the link.

Get the links for those.

Yeah, but it's on the. Your everything, like, everything for you is on your website, though.

Yes. Which is SonyAlab. Mirsky.com. but yeah, maybe providing a link would be easier.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Amazing. Okay, Sonia, well, I appreciate you. Thank you for spending decades for doing all this research and being pioneer goddess. We appreciate you. And I look forward to connecting with you again on your upcoming book where we will talk all about relationships.

Thank you. Yeah. And love how to feel. And thank you. You have this, like, warmth and authenticity that I really like.

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you. I feel like I'm just sitting down with, like, a dear friend. It's like, so. It's so fun to connect with you, and I feel your warmth of, like, I see why people are like, you're just so real.

Thank you.

You're obviously very brilliant. You know, at first I was like, oh, my gosh, Sonia's so smart. And you're. You're beautiful. You're smart, and you're very, very sweet and kind. So thank you. It's been fun. Thank you. We'll talk soon. Okay. Bye, Sonia. See you.