A Conversation with Dr. Siddharth Shah

I think that for many people, a narrative where they. They actually claim with agency, they claim what I'm doing for myself and. And then feeling the self efficacy of having done it. Those are. Those are small wins that actually add up to being the care that we need to withstand the world's injustices and inconveniences all.

Hello, I'm Dr. Farah White.

And I'm Dr. Grant Brenner.

We're psychiatrists and therapists in private practice in New York. We started this podcast in 2019 to draw attention to a phenomenon called the Doorknob comment. Doorknob comments are important things we all say from time to time, just as we're leaving the office, sometimes literally hand on the doorknob.

Doorknob comments happen not only during therapy, but also in everyday life. The point is that sometimes we aren't sure how to express the deeply meaningful things we're feeling, thinking, and experiencing. Maybe we're afraid to bring certain things out into the open or are on the fence about wanting to discuss them. Sometimes we know we've got something we're unsure about sharing and are keeping it to ourselves. And sometimes we surprise ourselves by what comes out.

Hi.

Welcome to the Doorknob comments podcast. I'm Grant. I'm here with my co host, Farah. And today we have a very distinguished guest, an old friend and colleague, Dr. Siddharth Ashvin Shah. I'm going to let Dr. Shah introduce himself because he has so many positive things to say and he's so eloquent and articulate. It will be better coming from him. Welcome.

Thank you. Thank you, Farah. Thank you, Grant. It's a delight to. To speak to you in this format. My name is Siddharth, Siddharth Ashwin Shah. And in introducing myself, I would simply say that I started out going into medical school with two really critical experiences. One is being focused on the humanities, having a degree in religious studies from undergraduate studies and the arts and anthropology had always been really formative for me. And then second, I spent a year zigzagging India. I was born in Texas, but India had really drawn me because of recent readings, really through my undergraduate years about activism and social change. And I wanted to connect that with all of my volunteerism in high school and college that had also taken me to people who believed in a better world. And with both of those experiences, I went into medical school really searching for what my place would be in the place of health and caring for the world's hurts.

That's really beautiful. And I'm Happy to hear about your path. I feel like this conversation couldn't be coming at a better time. I think everyone is probably a little demoralized and I'm curious as to what happened in medical school and the path afterwards. I know that you and Grant met while you guys were in. Maybe Grant, you were in residency and how things have gone from there.

Well, I would say that some of the key experiences in medical school for me were I knew that I loved infectious diseases and I at one time thought that maybe I would specialize in tropical diseases because I wanted to do work internationally. I also loved the patient doctor relationship. And so when it came to my instructors who were all about physical, physical diagnosis, not relying on tests and scans necessarily, but really listening to the patient and seeing how the patient's concerns might cohere into a pattern that is a disease category or a syndrome, that always fascinated me, just that process of discovery. The other really key experience that I had in medical school was that I essentially left medical school twice in the process, which for a kid of Indian immigrants was really a test of their resolve and their resilience as, as a mother and father who were willing to let a child discover their path. And so I would say it was probably for many parents it would be a near death experience. But for my parents, they, they, they trusted and listened to what I was seeking. And that was a deeper sense of how the, the interest in humanities, in spiritual practices into spiritual quests that humans and human families have, how that all could combine into the practice of medicine. So I returned to medicine and really grateful for that. I was really grateful for the advice that I got from people who kindly questioned why I would leave it, having done more than half and in finishing medical school. I did my internship in psychiatry at a residency in Kansas, the Menninger Clinic. It was its last year of operation in Kansas. What the Menninger Clinic was known for was an interdisciplinary approach to the restoration of individuals and their families that were affected by mental health concerns or mental illness. And I was really drawn by group therapy in particular and mind body medicine. And so I focused on that in my one year of training, psychiatry. And since it was the last year of Menninger's operation, I was at a crossroads. After my internship, I could continue psychiatry where the Menninger Clinic moved to, to Houston, Texas, to Baylor College of Medicine, which is where I went to medical school. So that was appealing, but at the same time I felt that something would be gained by looking around at different options. And I landed on preventive Medicine at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine, the Icahn School. And so I was not in psychiatry when I met Hugh Grant. You had already done your own changing of fields and gotten into psychiatry, which was, I think, something that we, we had in common. You started in surgery, right? Right, yeah.

I also took a year off in medical school, though I didn't really question finishing med school. I needed a break. I did research in cancer, but kind of similar. Yeah, yeah, we were, we were introduced by a shared mentor, one of the voluntary faculty there, Hillel Swiller, who is a real mensch and also a group therapist.

Yeah, exactly. Hillel brought so much joy and connection in the process of doing psychiatry in a form of group therapy. And I think he created an environment where a person who is not training any longer in psychiatry, like myself, could find mentorship and collegiality. And that meant quite a bit. And it serves me to this day.

He taught me something very important. I remember I visited him in his office once that I to this day remember and make use of. He told me that it was really important to nap. And he was right. Do you mind if we ask a little what you did when you took breaks from medical school? And I'm trying to restrain my usual sense of humor. The other question I wanted to ask you, somewhat tongue in cheek, was, you know what, what do you think the best religion is if you had to.

Pick one, you know, oh, it's clearly the one I follow, the nameless one.

I did make an app that allows people to design their own belief system. I'll share it with you later.

Exactly.

Well, I'm not joking, actually not joking.

But really on the serious note of religion, I have been interested in interfaith dialogue and comparative religion, giving a sense of what has been either eternal, what has been life giving in the different religious traditions and taking it seriously, really, that there can be some very distinct differences. And. And so comparative religion is not the idea of trying to figure out what's common, but really appreciating the different notes, tasting notes, and deep core problems that each religious system seems to specialize in responding to. What did I do? You've done a lot of.

Sorry, you've done a lot of work in that area. Just as a side note, helping to bridge differences in high conflict situations. So maybe we can talk about that a little later and then. Yes, what did you do? And then maybe wrap into, slide into what you're doing now and then we can find out more what advice you have for our listeners.

Sure. I probably did two key things when I took that time away from medical school. One is I explored a little further whether I would do a more academic PhD route where an inquiry into human suffering would be right for me. And that took me in particular to the Harvard Department of Social Medicine that was being headed up by Arthur Kleinman and other fantastic people, including one of the graduates, Paul Farmer, who has done quite a bit of work around the world. That's an understatement. And has written experience.

He recently passed. Right.

Yes. And has been a leading light for many in the humanitarian space. And somebody who had an uncompromising view towards human thriving and human protection. I went to the program there in social medicine, which was a kind of a dual inquiry of anthropology and critical theory and medical practice. And. And I met with Arthur Kleinman, and he listened closely to what I was looking to do, and he, in some ways dissuaded me. He says, I think you're going to be fine returning to medical school, and you're always welcome to come and apply here, join here. So that was one of the deep questions I had because I admired their work and I admired his writings, which include illness narratives and social suffering. The. The second thing I did is because of that year I spent in India before medical school, had all of these friendships and bonds, really these narratives in my mind of people I wanted to keep working with. So whether that was Shabnam in New Delhi or Sanjeev in the state of Gujarat, or Anil, who, with his wife Daksha, you know, still to this day influenced my thinking. They were working with tribal populations in India. So in that break from medical school, I just took a flight to India and continued my affiliation, which was half studying what the work was and half contributing where I could. But I think I was still in the stage of being a student of the work rather than contributing to social change or humanitarian work, I was taking my time. I was. Was taking my time to think about what these life worlds were that involved working in some of the most difficult, challenging circumstances.

Any influence of your ancestral home and some of the people who came from there. I remember visiting for one of your weddings to the same person, but in different locations. And it's a pretty storied and historical place in India.

Right? Yeah. I wonder which one of us should clarify what we mean by one of my weddings.

Well, it was. Well, right. There was one in Ahmedabad, and then there was one in Delhi, and I think there was one in Houston that I couldn't make it to.

All to the same.

All to the same person. Yeah, yeah, I thought I said that. Right. Yeah. No, no, yeah, sorry.

Still my wonderful wife. And it took three weddings to really seal the deal.

That was good. I mean, it was great. It was great for me, I mean, especially the one in Ahmedabad, because I was kind of a spectacle, I think. But this is not about me.

I think, you know, actually you, you share something with my mother and father when it comes to some of the, the how people will spectate, which is that you danced with such gusto there. And my mother and father in, you know, my mother is in her late 70s and my father's 83. They dance, you know, they dance more than any 50 year old typically dances in India. And they are, they are a spectacle as well. So I think there's just something about channeling that joy and emotion that, that got you all, all those eyeballs at that time, which my parents also share. I. From my ancestral space, I would, I really link to the fact that, you know, I come from a society that has been heavily patriarchal for eons. And part of my interest is in supporting those organizations that balance away from patriarchy to a more equal footing of influence. But the story I'm going to tell you about the impact that my ancestral experience had is in some ways patriarchal. I certainly recognize, which is that my two grandfathers and my contact with those two grandfathers, I think influenced me to this day from a professional standpoint, which is that my father's father, Somal Shah, he was for his life a professional artist, watercolor painter. And that was unusual in many of our family systems and in our clan. He did not meet great financial success, which is oftentimes the purpose of the family system in my background. And he painted and he looked at the world with a very wide aperture. And that impacted my father and, and in terms of giving me all the leeway and flexibility I needed in my life to explore. My mother's father, Govind Lal Shah, he was a merchant, a timber and lumber merchant. And every visit that I made to India, I found his work in some ways very inscrutable and uninteresting, except for the fact that what I was seeing is how much relationship building had to do with his work. I mean, I would watch him go to a small little space in the city and he would sit down with people and on little pieces of paper they would write down basically the deal, the pricing, the terms. And compared to somebody like my father's father painting, I found that frankly dull. And it was a great surprise to me that Ultimately, I had to lead an entrepreneurial endeavor, which I do now. Greenleaf Integrative, which is a big surprise. I never thought that I would be doing something where I'd be working with the terms of contracts and, and doing the relationship building that's so fundamental to the work of human trust and growing things bigger and stronger. So I think my ancestral home, in that way, really did make a difference from the patriarchal side. But then clearly both of my maternal grandmothers were always there as the glue and the infrastructure of our family lives. And I certainly owe an enormous debt to them, intangible and incalculable to this.

Day, and at the risk of maybe being incorrect and possibly culturally biased, but my understanding is that Mahatma Gandhi also came from your town, the state.

Not, not. Not the town he. He was from.

I projected that.

Yeah, yeah, but Gandhi had his own, you know, like he, he went about his life in a very unusual, iconoclastic way. I certainly identify with it. I'm not necessarily following that path.

Well, you, you have better hair and so. Pause. Farrah, any thoughts? You're sitting there looking very pleased. No.

Yeah.

I am curious to hear about the Greenleaf Enterprises and what you do today.

Sure. Greenleaf Integrative is really an accidental experience for me, but extremely strong as a, as a blessing. I was busy in the early 2000s after the 911 attacks provided the context in which a lot of suffering needed to be addressed and, and uncertainty in that, in that context. I was living in New York City with you, Grant, at Mount Sinai, and we were looking for different ways respond at a population based level to people who were experiencing trauma. But we were not necessarily going to go out and try to find all the people in the whole community of the Tri State area who had the diagnostic criteria for PTSD or other traumatic conditions. So what Greenleaf is, is an evolution of about a decade of work in providing people ideas about how organizations can better respond to trauma that is not a diagnostic clinical trauma, but it is a largely population felt experience of trauma informed by psychiatry and psychology, but not limited to. To those disciplines. And as I was doing this work, which took me to India and Sri Lanka to respond to the tsunami, the Indian ocean tsunami in 2004, which took me to the to Kashmir to work with survivors of the Kashmir earthquake. In Pakistan particularly, I found myself just doing the work of organizational consulting around the trauma that they were responding to and the trauma vicariously that their teams were experiencing. And frequently finding that managers had an inkling that something more should be done. But There was a question of what exactly more should be done. Some organizations had an employee assistance program, and then many of these organizations, especially in much more remote places, lower resource settings. The idea of an employee assistance program was, you know, a very far away concept. And so what I started to be able to partner with organizations with is what are some practical strategies, some strategies that complement something like an employee assistance program. How do you. How do you excite the interest and rally the energy to do something for trauma when actually so much more seems to be the priority every time when it comes to a disaster? And so it would be oftentimes simple techniques, whether they be breathing techniques, guided meditations, or we oftentimes produced an index card size type of way to monitor just how bad stress is getting for a person. Like in hospitals, people wear the dosimeter for radiation exposure, and people will. If the dose on your coat is showing to be too much radiation exposure, then you have to investigate further why this person is getting so much of that exposure and possibly take steps for mitigation. I guess what I'm relating that to is that people oftentimes, they have an abstract idea of just how much stress they're undergoing and they're coping with, but they have. They're not really stopping to think about just how bad has gotten and whether some steps need to be taken. And so, you know, a simple job aid, like an index card with a color continuum and can help an individual track their own stress levels and the consequences of that stress and maybe do something about it.

Kind of like. Yeah, like green, yellow, orange, red.

Precisely. Those are hard.

I have them somewhere.

Yeah, I guess, you know, in response, that was a very long response to a simple question. How did Greenleaf come to be? I had moved to Washington D.C. by this time, and it was in 2000, 2007, 2008, that I happened to meet somebody, unbeknownst to me what his profession was. But it's. We started talking about my work with doctors, nurses, that I was working with the GW center for Integrative Medicine at that time, seeing patients and also consulting for burnout and vicarious trauma at the hospital center. This person I met at a film screening said, why don't you do this for the federal government? And I should have shrugged my shoulders and said, I've never thought about that. And he said, it is the largest employer here in D.C. you know. And he handed me his card. He introduced me to Tim and Marcy at the U.S. agency for International Development, who heard what I was really up to in terms of preventing and mitigating trauma. And they said, we want to get you started right away. How do we work with you? And I sort of fumbled around at that time. I never really thought about the federal space. And they said, you need to have an organization. It would be easiest if you had an LLC and were a private contractor to the government. And this was all very new to me. And then, you know, sort of my, my maternal grandfather's, you know, business background started coming back to me and saying I had no idea I would ever be starting something that would be classified as a business. But that's how the federal government saw it. And we started Greenleaf in April of 2008 and it is still going strong as, as a way of helping organizations large and small think about trauma in novel ways.

Very good. I'd like to shift gears and try to capture some of the wisdom and pragmatic advice that you have gleaned over the years so that listeners can take something away that they may find useful. As Farah said, during these stressful times, as much as we may wish things to be different, we have to accept and work with where things are. Though not everyone is, is feeling that stress, the world at large is quite more stressful. And I'd say I share that wish to help the common good. And one way to do that is to help individuals. So I'd like to ask you a few questions. Farah can ask them as well. I don't know if you have our interview questions handy, but the first one is as follows. What are some of the common emotional and psychological barriers that keep people from pursuing greater well being?

I'm glad that you're centering this on well being, because truly, I mean, to be able to respond to trauma is ultimately a desire to stimulate a life giving response in individuals, families, and whole systems. And well being is the goal. And well being, of course, is a. Is a term that really needs to be defined because one person's well being is not necessarily the others. And so I would start with that definition of well being, which I think of as a. A condition which improves all outcomes, basically. And so whether one is an individual who has more well being or less well being, the degree of well being is going to lead to different outcomes in one's life. And that could be as micro as how I made my sandwich today, you know, or how I perform at my job, or how I drive, drive on the roads today. So that well being is just the fundamental condition which then drives all other experiences in our minds and our hearts. And also exterior experiences in terms of the product we put out into the world and among those products being the relationships that we have in the world. So well being is a critical, critical resource for all of us. And many, many a times when we think about stress in our worlds, we're oftentimes really relying, I think, a little too heavily on the concept of resilience. I happen to really strongly promote resilience in the work I do and how I speak about well being. And yet I think that resilience is necessary for a good life, but it's not sufficient. And so the other piece is integration. It's not enough. Again, back to resilience. It's not enough just to be coping with every stress. There's more to life than that. And so our humanity comes from what I'm calling integration. And that has features of meaning making connection and deeper, more durable insights about what's going on with me, what's going on with you, what's going on in the world. And I think that's what really adds and rounds out how well being is a function of both resilience and integration working together. Barriers include, first of all, the more stressed I become, the less conditioned I become to deal with more stress. And so just like a muscle, there is a point after which the muscle is less able to lift more weight, and there's a point after which the muscle can be injured and then needs a whole lot more rest. And in the same way, I think one of the key barriers to well being is actually the depletion that people have. The level of fragmentation, the opposite of integration. The level of fragmentation oftentimes makes it challenging to properly prioritize one's well being because there's so much else going on. We've compartmentalized parts of our lives and one of those is, well, I'm going to get back to well being when I can. So the better approach is to have a way to make well being more sticky. And you could use literally sticky notes on what I'm going to do. You know, if it's on my mirror that I see in the morning, if it's on the car dashboard, I can create small reminders of what I'm going to do. Of course, we all have smartphones and we can get an app to do that. Many people will be excited to get the next app for a. For habits. And other people are completely exhausted with all the notifications and cannot take another app. So I think really the, the residency that I did after psychiatry, preventive medicine is dedicated to finding solutions that work truly in real life, like how to create effective behavior change and have those behaviors be sticky. That, that has actually been my life's work. You know, the content has been well being and trauma. The process and methodology has been behavior change. And part of that is not really spouting off or being very cautious. Not to just provide people a list of tips and tricks on how to deal with stress and how to be more well, but to lead people and systems through sustainable approaches that will actually serve in times of crisis.

That's amazing. A lot of my patients will talk about the fatigue they feel around wellness and self care and trying to do all the right things all the time. Coming home exhausted and then exhausting themselves, you know, with like another endeavor. When really wellbeing can look like, you know, having a cup of herbal tea doesn't need to always be the, the heavy lift, I think.

Oh, I just wanted to add with that, Farrah, that all of the many simple things that we actually do that in sum do support our humanity and, and our joy or our calm. Frequently what we want to do is tag those experiences and say that's one thing I did, that's one thing I did, you know, or even before I do it, rather than doing it speaking about in the past tense. I'm about to take, I'm about to take the shower after work and that's going to wash off a little bit of what I've been carrying around or I'm going to have this, this cup of tea. And as this tea makes its way through my, my mouth and you know, my, my throat digestive system that it is also sending, you know, it's soothing me through and through. I mean, these are small metaphors. I think that for many people a narrative where they, they actually claim with agency, they claim what I'm doing for myself and, and then feeling the self efficacy of having done it. Those are, those are small wins that actually add up to being the care that we need to withstand the world's injustices and inconveniences, all the slings and.

Arrows of outrageous fortune. I feel like in western culture wellness has become so commodified. It's like the tyranny of wellness. And you know, I'm on social media and every two seconds there's a post on research shows that you do this, Research shows that you do that. You take this supplement, you eat that food, you do this exercise. If everyone followed every piece of wellness advice that gave them 10 to 11% more wellness, they wouldn't have time to be living and present for a split second. And Farah, I wonder if that speaks to what you're seeing as well, this kind of like defensive rush to wellness as a kind of a mindless way of coping with well being stress and trying to prescribe well being in a way which is likely to fail and is often devoid of true self compassion.

I do see a lot of that. I think that it has something to do with the way, you know, New Yorkers live their lives, that there are not a lot of moments where people are sort of willing and able to truly be present. So staying fit looks like going to a workout class or you know, going and, and doing something. Everything is in such close proximity that I think sometimes the schedules and the obligations, even if they're good things, can be, it can feel like adding one.

More thing like perfectionism.

Yeah, I agree about the, the risk of commodifying self care and, and wellness. For me the antidote is reminding people that self care is actually part of the larger ecosystem. I call it something to the effect of care of self and others. And I think that's, that's truly what our goal should be. I mean for me, because I work with people who in some way or the other are helpers, healers or protectors, it makes a lot of sense because frequently self care is almost seen as self indulgent or I don't have time for that because other people are suffering more than I am. But if we can put it into the context of care of self and others is what's important, then what happens is that A yes, please care for others, B when somebody comes and tries to care for you, that's important, you accept that care and yes, care for yourself and then give care to one to your own colleagues and so becomes a virtuous cycle. I would hope, and frankly one does not have to be professionally a helper, healer or protector to be able to reside in this paradigm. Because all of us have parts of ourselves that are helpers or healers or protectors to others. And so I think if we can embrace that just remembering that not to be taking in self care or wellness as a, as a self indulgent or atomistic self centered approach. But it's part of a larger system of we care for others, we accept care, we may accept care that's being given by my own self self care, but that it is alone, not the be all and end all. And I mean, hey, if somebody could commodify the care of others, I'd Be quite interested in that because we could certainly use more fueling of that existential compassion that the world could use more of.

I think there are some people trying to do it, but they, I don't know if they've had much success.

Well, people make the case that the world is in a much better place than it's ever been. Steven Pinker is one of those, the angels of our better nature. You know that crime and disease and all those things have gone down over the centuries. When the world is in a more stressful state, it's easy to be pessimistic. It's important to be realistic also. And certainly, you know, there's a lot of inequity in society. And curious Siddharth, if you could envision a world where there weren't all of these obstacles, what do you think you'd like to see the world be like?

Well, I'm very familiar with how Pinker has argued that by all the numbers that we have less sources of material suffering. And I think we should celebrate that and I think we should keep building on that. And certainly with technology there are a number of ways that I envision that we're going to succeed at reducing the material forms of suffering. I'm not quite aware of how our inner states and the sense of well being, whether we have higher levels of it now or lower levels of it. I certainly know that there's plenty of people who are speaking about all of the concerns, of course, the mental health crisis, how social media and increasing isolation, reduced human contact are enormous threats to, to society. And so what I would love to see is for people to take, to take seriously that we can be methodical about promoting well being in our families and our systems and our society. And that would include, I mean, a system is not well if there are inequities. A system is not well if you're, if you're asking people to be resilient to inequities that are preventable. And so I think systems should be really vigilant for the opportunities that we have to bring more people together to identify the fragmentation in our lives and, and to take it seriously to not, I think the economic and technological forces of the world really do favor more and more isolation. And so it's going to take quite a bit of effort on our parts to raise the alarm and to provide really durable solutions to the fact that it seems to me, I don't have the research on this. It seems to me that it's easier to make money in ways that are Isolating from. For people rather than connecting for people.

That sounds right. I know we're sort of winding down for today, but I'm wondering if there's anything that, you know, we didn't ask about that you'd like to say or how and where people can find you and learn more about Greenleaf.

Of course. But I know you're editing this. I want to say something more about the earlier questions.

Yeah, yeah.

It just occurs to me that I'm speaking to both of you who have professional practices and hey, you make money, but you make money through connecting people and connecting people with their inner parts. So I should revise what I said earlier by saying that I think that it's easier to make money at scale, at larger and larger scales in ways that do not connect people. And I think it's oftentimes the micro scale that's very difficult to copy and paste, Copy and paste. That, that does connect people. And so I was just. I'm almost actively trying to make sure I'm integrated in speaking to both of you. As I think about that conundrum.

I think that's the challenge. When I said, well, a lot of people are trying to do it is how to, you know, scale something like what we do. And I just resolved to know that there's not, there's not a way to do that, that there's not a shortcut. And you know, people with our training could work 247 but. And, and not build anything bigger than what we have.

Yeah, yeah. My, My two daughters oftentimes reference the fact that they watch my dog who is looking outside the window, and they refer to it as slow tv. And again, slow TV doesn't, doesn't seem to be monetizable, but it is. It's all those small, those small moments, those very embodied human moments that seem to be so, so impactful to us, but also easy to. To just zip past and get to the. Get to the true tv, the real technological tv, and forget the slow TV that's in front of us.

Yeah, there's a whole conversation there about the commodification of attention and doom scrolling and social media and the way that the human brain can be so easily hacked. And maybe part of well being, I'm thinking, is learning how to unhack your own brain.

Oh yeah, right.

And so with that, thank you very much, Dr. Shah, it's always a pleasure. Can you let us know where people can learn more about you? And please mention, if it's still relevant, your meditation recordings, which are excellent I.

Appreciate the invitation so people can find my work and what we do@greenleaf integrative.com and I'm always ready to have a conversation with people who are curious about how to grow this work with organizations and teams in particular. And secondly, yes, the Guided Meditations are streaming on several platforms. I can definitely send you a link to share, but also on Apple Music YouTube. They're free to listen to on YouTube, but if you have Spotify or Apple Music, they're also available there. If people would just look up my full name, probably find like 40 or 50 different guided meditations. But the ones I'm most excited about are ones that are associated with Yoga Nidra, which is a kind of a a sleep like state which helps people with integration or better sleep itself. And people often say about Yoga Nidra that you could do it for 20 minutes but feel like one had slept for two or three hours. That's subjective, of course, no studies to show that. But I think it's it's an exciting way to do a guided meditation. And other meditations are related to workplace stress, particularly how to deal with setbacks and adversity, or if people are transiting to a difficult job site either by plane or by driving to a difficult, difficult meeting even. There's ways to prepare that my guided meditations are focused on. And I really appreciated all of the people who have suggested the different meditations that they would need to be useful in their lives. So I want to, I want to thank all the individuals that have put their trust in in this work.

Thanks very much.

Thank you both.

Until next time, from Farah and Grant, thanks for listening to Doorknob comments and please feel free to reach out with suggestions or feedback. And if you have a good experience, please take a minute to leave. Good rating. Lots of stars. We love it. Thank you. Remember, the Doorknob Comments podcast is not medical advice. If you may be in need of professional assistance, please seek consultation without delay.