Looking at Art with Kate Werble

You know, for me, art is. I mean, can I say that? It's a little bit of magic, right? It's sort of like allowing you to make connections to things that are outside of yourself and to the world that you wouldn't normally make, like, sort of neurological connections to things. And I think that allows you to have thoughts about lots of different things that sort of stem from that one moment of looking at something.

Hello, I'm Dr. Farah White.

And I'm Dr. Grant Brenner.

We're psychiatrists and therapists in private practice in New York. We started this podcast in 2019 to draw attention to a phenomenon called the doorknob comment. Doorknob comments are important things we all say from time to time, just as we're leaving the office, sometimes literally, hand on the doorknob.

Doorknob comments happen not only during therapy, but also in everyday life. The point is that sometimes we aren't sure how to express the deeply meaningful things we're feeling, thinking, and experiencing. Experiencing. Maybe we're afraid to bring certain things out into the open or are on the fence about wanting to discuss them. Sometimes we know we've got something we're unsure about sharing and are keeping it to ourselves. And sometimes we surprise ourselves by what comes out.

Hi. Thanks so much for tuning in today. I'm Farah White, here with my co host, Grant Brenner, and a very special guest and longtime friend, Kate Werbel, who has had her own gallery. When was your gallery established? Been a little while now, right?

Yeah, in 2008.

Yeah, we want to hear all about that. Kate and I were introduced through a very close friend and I guess hit it off, but it was probably even before that. I feel like I met you the year we graduated, like 2005 or 6.

Yeah, it was early because I had. Yeah, because, Megan, I think maybe you weren't still roommates, but we definitely were sort of in New York, younger. We all met.

I remember the year of living dangerously.

Maybe, but I remember one year for.

Farrah, so that.

I had never been to an art gallery before. And so we came in, and I was like, oh, this is really cool. And you gave us each a PBR and you blew the dust off, and you had a pack of Marlboro Reds, and you were like, oh, yeah, this is what I have left over from the opening.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I always. I mean, I'm not a smoker at all, but I. I always feel like, you know, they're. They're a good thing to have in the gallery. So, yeah, that's the, that's my secret. If you come and visit and you would like a cigarette, you can ask me.

But I think for today, you know, most of our listeners are really interested in sort of the psychology behind a lot of everyday things. And I, I do feel like the art world has this air of, I don't know, sophistication. And sometimes people feel like it's not as accessible as other things. And I think you're someone who can really like probably speak to anyone who is interested in art, loves art, you know, wants to collect or understand how to do that and just to learn a little bit more about what you do.

Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean I think that the art, you know, it's a small community really the art world. And I think it exists in most cities, you know, but I think even in New York, which is such a big place, there are, I think I read the other day, there are hundreds and hundreds of galleries here. But the reality is that it's not as big as it seems. And so I think definitely artists always come by and ask how can we, we're a young artist, how can we start showing or how do we. Will you look at my work? And I think such a great thing to do when you're first in New York or when you are interested in starting to learn about looking at art is all the commercial galleries are free and so you can just go around and really talking to one gallery can lead you to learn about the other galleries in that neighborhood. And then you can sort of just go on these walks and go pop in. And if you spend two hours a week, like on a Saturday and you go to a bunch of different galleries, you can, you know, you learn about others. And then if you go to openings and when you go to an opening sometimes you'll meet, you know, one person that will introduce you to someone else. And it is sort of an organic process. There are now a lot of different apps you can use like Seesaw is the best one and it's free and you can download the Seesaw app and it has a pretty up to date list of all the current shows, all the openings and they group them by downtown like I'm in soho but very close to Tribeca which is a burgeoning gallery area in New York. Chelsea obviously has a lot of very big galleries. Tribeca has sort of mid sized, some big ones too, to small. Then there's the Lower east side. I mean galleries are really spread all over the city and it's nice on seesaw because you can sort of see like, oh, maybe I had lunch here on a Saturday afternoon and I want to go check out some art and you can just see what's around, what's near me. And it'll have some shows listed and you can read about what the show is like. If you have an aversion to sculpture and the gallery next to the restaurant you're eating in, hashtag sculpture, you can say, okay, I'm not going to go to that gallery. I can go to the one down the street that has photography or whatever. So you know, and I will say that the more you look and sort of go to galleries, I think you get a sense for what you like and sort of the familiarity or the people that work at the galleries. And some galleries are very big, you know, but really everyone that works at the front desk is trained to answer questions. So if you feel comfortable enough saying could you recommend, you know, is there a gallery next door? Or do you recommend other galleries? Do you have a map? Or, you know, they should tell you what's nearby or, or they can tell you about the show that they have up or you know, they'll have a press release out about the artists they're showing.

You find people are intimidated by art.

I think that we don't get a lot of education about how to look at things in the United States and I don't think we get a lot of philosophy and sort of learning how to process the idea of images when we're young, like in high school or even earlier. You know, I mean, I know that they're cutting arts education right and left and all this stuff. So I think that that leads to a group of people that are sort of unfamiliar with looking at art. I think we are, are very familiar with buying things here. You know, it's, it's, you know, art galleries are shops, you can look at them that way and maybe that's easier for some people to think about. But. But yeah, I mean, I think coming in and looking at something and then if you have a question you can say like, what, what is this? You know, what am I looking at? What is this made of? I think the questions are, after looking at something are the most important thing to like talk about while you're in that gallery. And I think, you know, I gave my, my sister and brother in law a tour of some galleries yesterday. I'm sort of their unofficial art advisor. So what you can do in this is you can hire if you have extra money to spend you can, you can hire someone to be your art advisor and walk you around and show you the shows that they like and, or they think you might like. Anyways, so I'm their unpaid relative art advisor. And so we walked around and looked at shows and my brother in law said, wow, like there's a lot of this I wouldn't have seen on my own because there are, I mean, my gallery is upstairs. Like they're, you know, the galleries are a lot of times taking spaces that are not the super retail commercial spaces, they're taking upstairs spaces, things in the corner. There's this incredible gallery called 15 Orient that is like down an alley in Tribeca and up the stairs and it's just so, so beautiful. And you know, you wouldn't know it maybe if you weren't in the business or the. Yeah, so with that kind of stuff, you have to talk to other people to get the knowledge about where to go.

And if you were to advise people who wanted to do this themselves and they get on seesaw and go, let's say, look at some shows, do you think they're interested is a certain way? Like what would you want people to who are looking at art for the first time and maybe they haven't had much of, you know, an education. Are there certain things to know or understand about what we're looking at?

I mean, I would definitely. I'm always an advocate of looking at the show first, sort of walking in and having that experience of yourself, like with the artwork, even if it's artwork that you don't like, and sort of thinking about like, why did the artist make this? You know, what, what is this? Or what are the materials that I'm looking at? Is this paint on canvas? What kind of pain is it? You know, sort of having those just letting the work kind of sit with you for a minute. Even if you can stand in that gallery for five minutes quietly and just like look at these things and then you can go back to the front desk and sort of read about it. That's really nice because you are sort of teaching yourself how to be comfortable with looking at the work. And in my old space, I had my office, like the sign in area was in the back of the gallery. So the idea that you would go in first without someone like in your face being like, welcome, you know, was really nice for me. I mean, weirdly, sometimes people would come in and leave and I wouldn't know that they were there. So that was a, that was not ideal. But so here now, my new Space. I'm like, sort of at the front, you know, it's like, you can kind of go in, but I will always see you, you know, see ahead. There was a couple sounds very. I'd walk in the front, I'd be like, oh, someone's here. Hello.

It sounds like you're highlighting somewhat of an experiential, unmediated approach. It reminds me of Dewey, like, art and experience, like, this immersive experience and not wanting to give too much information first. I know people debate this a little bit with art, and I know it from the psychoanalytic point of view, which is like, you know, if you know everything about the artist and you know their story and blah, blah, blah, it's a very different experience to view something than if you are naive.

Yeah.

And I think I would encourage people to have the naive experience first, because once you. Once you lose that, you. It's much harder to get it back.

Yeah. And I mean, even if you do know, like yesterday, when I was walking around these exhibitions, many of the artists, I've known their work for a long time, but it's still nice for me to go in and try to force myself to just look at the work without making a judgment about what that artist has made on their last show or what their prices are or, you know, whatever. Weird. Not weird, but whatever external information I know.

How do you do that, can I ask, subjectively? There's, you know, a philosopher, Husserl Phenomenology, who, you know, I'll try to be a little intellectual, who talked about bracketing experience. And so the idea, like, might be to bracket off that more learned experience and see it with a beginner's mind or through beginner's eyes. I'm curious what that's like. What is that like for you as someone who's a gallery owner and very experienced? How do you achieve that state of mind? Do you have. Do you. Do you do exercises before you go into a gallery or something or, you know, I'm kidding. But what do you do?

No, I mean, I might not be very good at it, because I think you're always. I mean, my thing is that I think you do bring your. Can we say this, like, but you bring your sort of experience with you Right. When you look at something, even if you're trying not to. And I think. I don't. I don't. I think all I'm trying to do is really be curious about that moment that I'm in. In that gallery. Because even if you hate what is there that artist and that gallerist, they have done a lot of work to get that show up. You know, you're trying to give, like, the respect to that moment and just try to understand what their. What the takeaway is like. Even if your takeaway is, like, how, like, this is not doing very much for me, and I think the world is ending, you know, or like our culture is in a terrible place. You know, it's. Everything looks so pretty. I think it would be interesting. I mean, I do feel like I have a lot of friends and artists who do daily meditation and all this stuff to kind of clear your mind. I have never done any of that, and I wonder if it would help how I look at things. But, you know, I don't know that. I don't know that it's a race. It's weird, though. I don't know if you're supposed to erase everything that, you know, because I think looking at art, like, the. Builds on itself and Farah, you know, this. Like, you've been to so many exhibitions, and you look at so much art in person and online and. Right. It's sort of like an experience that builds on itself.

Totally, totally. But I do feel that sometimes, like, when I'm. When I go into an exhibition, I don't know very much about it, and I really. Because I use words all day, basically, maybe a little bit of body language, let's say. On a good day, I get to sit with people, but a lot of my work is still online. And so I appreciate being able to sit, let's say, in silence. And I like that. You know, in my. In my day job, when someone tells me something, I have to put it into the context of everything I know about them and everything I know about their childhood or their patterns or their behaviors and, you know, make interpretations from that.

That.

And so for me to walk in knowing nothing and just to be able to feel something, whether it's positive or negative or whatever is. Is kind of a treat.

Well, there was a psychoanalyst beyond who. Yeah, of course, they know a lot. Like, you know a lot. But he suggested approaching each individual session without memory or desire.

But that's hard to do. Yeah, that's why I think he suggested, because a lot of times it's like, oh, I want this. I want to talk about, you know, something that came up last session. Or I wanted, you know, the concept to be one way, but it's really the other way. And just trying to manage that within ourselves, I think is like, it's an Ongoing process.

Well, I was wondering about the idea that you had said if the art does what the artist wants it to do. I'm curious what you mean by that, because it made me think of art as being like a living thing in the world.

Yes. And I actually probably shouldn't have said that, because there are a lot of works that are made that are really great works that are all outside of the artist's control. So I don't necessarily mean that it's a controlled thing. I probably should have said that. It's. So the show that I have on right now is about the idea of artists sort of making work that are making works that are outside of their control. Control, where it's like they've done it for so long, or they are making these. These artworks that sort of become hypnotic objects on the. On their own, so they can sort of exist without the artist's control. I don't know if that makes sense.

To you both, but it does. I didn't take what you said to mean the artist would control what happened afterward, but, you know, what you said makes sense. Like, the intent is for it to exist outside of the art. But that's what I was thinking. It's almost like I'm very interested in, like, consciousness and neuroscience and stuff. And it's like the art, in the presence of, you know, a person looking at the art or experiencing the art becomes alive in some way.

Right. It's, like, activated between the two things. It's not that the art lives alone on its own. It's when the person's looking at it. And then there's, like, that moment, that spark is sort of like. I think that's what I meant, too, by it sort of doing it all in that moment.

Yeah. And then, Grant, you had, you know, asked, I guess, a fundamental question about, well, what is art really? And I don't know. I guess that's a little bit big. But, Kate, you are the closest.

Oh, my goodness. Come on. Our podcast, and we're going to ask you what art is. Well, I mean, I should know. You know, it's my job. But I. I love that question. I think, you know, I think that was what I was saying is that, like, it feels like we have a little bit of a. A failure in education, Right. To sort of teach some fundamentals of. Of like. Of how to. How to look at things and how to. How to process ideas and. And really understand, like. And really grasp, like, these. These huge sort of large questions. Right. And we don't have necessarily the Tools for that as a. Like, an American culture, like, growing up, you know, it's. It's. It's not every child that gets educated in these sort of larger issues of what things mean, right? And so, like, that idea of what is art is kind of goes back to that, right? So it's like. It's. I mean, I think that art is. And there's definitely a school of thought that, like, art can be anything you want it to be. Like, well, okay, maybe, you know, for me, art is. I mean, can I say that? It's a little bit of magic, right? It's sort of like. It's sort of allowing you to make connections to things that are outside of yourself and to the world that you wouldn't normally make, like, sort of neurological connections to things. And I think that allows you to have thoughts about lots of different things that sort of stem from that one moment of looking at something. So that, for me, is what art is, because it's allowing you to sort of expand your synapses or whatever the correct. You know, to sort of think about things. And that's why I think it's so important. I mean, just to go back, you know, I think. I think it's really important to have it in our lives, you know, to allow. To have that moments to think about. I mean, I look at artwork and then I go back and I think about all these other things, and it allows me to sort of, again, make those connections between, like, some very different. You can talk about, like, between, like, politics and memory and time. And, you know, it sort of connects all these things.

I love that. And I think it probably is part of the reasoning. I mean, I. I don't know the exact research, but there have been studies done to show that kids, you know, before and after, let's say, going into museum, will end up having more empathy and compassion. And maybe it is this sense of connecting with something outside of ourselves. A lot of what I think. I think most people would agree, like, the. The problem today is that we. There's this big fear of the other, right? And I think it's led to, like, a pretty. A pretty big conflict in our country, political system, whatever else, instead of sort of, you know, curiosity, appreciation. So I think that, like, art is more important now than it ever has.

Been, maybe more needed. I think art should save the world, personally.

Yeah. And I mean, I think there is, you know, the art world that I'm in because I have a commercial gallery where everything is for sale, you know, and it's for Sale because the artists are making the work and then trying to live as artists. So the money goes directly to supporting these artists. So I wouldn't say that selling it is bad necessarily, but I do think that there are, you know, I mean, I guess I would say too, where I'm going with this is that there is also a lot of, like, bad art out there. And, like, is it. Is it. Does it do anything to you to look at something that is, like, not a good. Not a good painting or not a good sculpture or. You know, I wonder about that sometimes. That's more of a question. But that's for the psychiatrist, like a.

Corruption of art in some way. But, you know, it makes me think of these hard to answer questions. Like, if you've ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, it's about a guy who ostensibly is driven mad by his effort to define what is quality. And you're raising this important question about the sale of art. And my experience with artists is somewhat limited. I'm really curious what. What you both think, but a lot of times it feels like there's conflict between being true to one's art and the need to put food on the table. It also makes it hard for artists to network.

But, I mean, I think we have this conflict in every. Every part of our lives in, like, a capitalist society. Not to, like, go too deep here, but you guys are going to have that with your patients and with. I mean, you know, it's. No, but I'm saying, like, we do have it in the art world. And it is really hard when you're an artist and the market is responding to one part of your work, and they. We can take it to, like, a very basic level. Let's say I'm the artist and I make a. Or I'm working with an artist and they're making a blue painting. And I can sell that blue painting 12 times. So I sell it 12 times, and then they come to me and they're like, and now we make red paintings. And all my clients just want blue paintings because people are, you know, generally, like, move in a herd mentality, especially when they don't think that they trust themselves and what they look at and what they like. You know, when you go to an airport and every, like, teenage girl is wearing the same type of shoes, it's kind of amazing. So then, you know, I go back to the artist and I say, look, like, I like your red paintings, but everyone. Or so I like your blue paintings, but everyone wants you to make those Red paintings. It's really tricky, you know, because the artist has to live. And so that is the problem with the market and having to live off of your sales and sort of having that dictate what you make. As an art dealer, I don't. I don't sell that much work. So I think my. But I mean, I don't. I don't think the artists. The artists that I work, I really want them to make whatever they. They want. And there's not necessarily one type of thing that the clients that I work with support. So I'm really interested in artists that do lots of different things. And I think the clients that work with me know that that artist is going to have free rein to make what they want, and hopefully they'll support them throughout their lives.

That would be like reaching a certain point as an artist where you're sought after enough that you can do what you want.

Right. But I'm trying to have them do that from a young age. So every show, when I haven't. I mean, some artists do make similar things and that's what they make. But then sometimes artists, their projects are even everything is a conceptual project. And so it changes so much with every. Every show. And so you want to find people that will support that artist for, for how they, how they think, you know, and it's difficult. I mean, there's not a lot of people that, that really do buy contemporary art too. I mean, it's, it's not a huge, huge group.

So you are someone who just by nature, I think, is like a supportive and kind person thinking about other people and what's going to make other people happy.

I have not talked to my sister. No, I'm just kidding.

Actually, we did. We talked with her in preparation for this.

Would you.

I don't know. Do you ever feel pulled in that way? You know that on one hand you know what you can sell and on the other hand, you know what feels most authentic and what are like, the hard parts of your job.

I mean, I think that that would be maybe a reason that I'm not. You know, I have. I've had this gallery for many years now by myself. And I mean, I work with lots of people and my goodness, you know, they all have really great ideas about what we're showing. And everyone that works with me has input in everything, but. But I do think that I'm a little bit like, bullheaded or pigheaded about kind of showing. Like, not, you know, I won't show necessarily what I think the Market wants because I'm just kind of trying to show what I like and what seems to me what the artist is interested in making. Because my job is to really like read and really work with the artists that I'm showing, you know. And so yeah, I mean we have a piece in this current show that is sold and I could probably sell another one because lots of people love this work. But I mean, I don't represent this artist. But I also like, you know, we have to focus on selling the other, other things. And you know, just, I, I like to think like just because everyone wants one thing, like generally, I mean the things that are not sold are going to end up being like the historically valuable things. So I don't feel like in that instance, I don't feel a lot of tension with my job. I, I do feel like, oh man, I like probably need to be more savvy to what people want. You know, I should have my therapy appointments be about that, you know, not, not about how to communicate in a clear way. You know.

It sounds like you experience what some artists also struggle with, which is like again, kind of being true to what they, their art versus responding to the demands of the market. And I understand in, in, in art there's a concern that the influence of commercialism can undermine art. I think Warhol had something like the Art Factory as a kind of a commentary on this mass produced art. Or you go to a big box store and you buy, you know, a painting, you know, all those things. But I'm curious, what has it been like for you to work with artists, particularly artists who are seeking to show in your gallery? Because it sounds like you really value the artist's aesthetics and ideals.

I mean, I definitely try to. I mean, I think that that is where the conflict comes in, right, Is when it's like I'm also trying to anticipate what, like it's not, also not a huge amount of people are coming to see the shows. I mean people come, but it's, it's, you know, just in one city, in one place. It's not reaching a huge amount of people necessarily. But I think last year I got like a real sense that I needed to change around my exhibition program very quickly. And sort of because I'm a commercial gallery and not an institution, I don't have show. I mean I will plan my shows two years out or one and a half years out or three years out, but I am able to kind of, I have to. And as I've gotten older, I'm More confident in this, like, changing things around based on external factors. Like, if I go around and I've been seeing the same kind of work in lots of other galleries, and then I think, oh, my goodness, I have this show coming up, and it's very close to what I'm seeing. It's different, but it's maybe going to be misconstrued. I got to move this, and I have to talk to the artist. And that is the trickiest thing, is really working on not hurting that artist's feelings or making sure that we have to be a team together and sort of say, this is not the moment for this work to be understood. People are not going to read it the way we want to read it. So we have to pull this from the art fair or we have to pull this from the gallery and do that show in, like, a year or six months or maybe shift it or, you know. So last year, I sort of changed my whole program around quickly because I really wanted this one show to go in in September. And so we did it, and it was great. We got a New York Times review for that show, and I was right that it should have been there. But I think I did something similar for this summer, too. I pushed a show forward because it was going to be in the fall, and I really want it to be in July, because summer is traditionally a time where maybe people go away and they don't see as much. But I think this summer is going to be a time where I think art is really important to look at. And we're going to do a solo show with this artist because I think we're going to get a lot of people's eyes on it. And I think September might be a different thing, where everyone's back and feeling overwhelmed or. I don't know. So I. I changed that. And the artist was so cool about it, so that. Because I can imagine what it is from their end. You know, their art dealer calls them and is like, okay, so we've got to move it. And they're like, oh, my God, this woman is crazy. Like, I don't even have the work finished yet. I can't do a show in four months. So then you have to be able to make sure that that artist feels comfortable enough talking to you about how they're feeling.

How do you make your crazy work for you?

I don't know.

That's the title of Grant's book.

Is it really? Shh. I must have.

You ruined it. I wanted a total. Oh, yeah.

Autographed copy that's amazing.

I'll hand deliver it. Do you show photographs?

I do. My first artist is John Lehrer and he is a photographer and he's incredible and he's in a lot of museum collections.

And I didn't know that he was your first artist.

He was the first artist. Poor John. For like two years. I didn't, When I opened the gallery, I didn't want to represent any artists because I, I wanted to really do group shows and figure out who I was working with. And some, several people told me that that was a horrible idea and that I needed, at the time, I needed to have artists. And I was like, well, I really only know I want to work with John and so I put him on the website. So we love this. If you, you know, in 2008, if you've gone to the Kate Werbell Gallery website and like, you know, or Maybe it was 2009, at that point in the spring, there was like a drop down menu and you could click artists and it was just John Lair. It was like, it was great.

That's amazing. Well, I love his work.

Yeah. And his work really shifts quite a bit, you know, between all of his projects and it's, it's been really exciting to watch him expand his notion of what he makes, you know, it's very cool. He just had a show here and did a big book. Well.

This has been so much fun. I want to thank you for coming here. If people want to come visit your gallery, if they want to learn more about what you're, what you're doing, where can they find you? I know you have your gallery website. Are you pretty active on Instagram? I don't know.

Yeah, the gallery has an Instagram account and I, we use it, you know, to announce events and so you can find it. Find us at Kate Warble Gallery and you'll find openings and what shows are on. And we did an artist talk last night. So for example, that was on Instagram and people can come and we have a landline here at the gallery. You can also use the phone. Yeah, we're all there. I do not have a TikTok account. The young person that works with me is adamant that I have to get one, which ironically we tried to start one the day the TikTok was banned. So that was very. Well, like of all the days. Yeah. But I really hope people will come visit and also go. It's, it is intimidating to go and look at things, but I think you just have to remember that if you just take a minute with it. Maybe that intimidation passes a little bit and you can. And also galleries. Some galleries are very cold, you know, so they have like a, it's. They have a concrete floor and like the atmosphere is not warm and inviting. And I think maybe when you go in a few of them you start to get used to like, oh, this is a sort of aesthetic choice by a lot of galleries. So it's not, it's not as, as, as you know, foreboding as it might seem.

That or that austere quality seems very common.

Yeah. I mean mine has a wood floor because I, I really didn't want it to be so cold, but yeah. Well, thank you both so much. This is really.

Thanks very much.

And.

Remember the doorknob comments podcast is not medical advice. If you may be in need of professional assistance, please seek consultation without delay.

And you can take it what you see. All my love. And they believe Let me say 1, 2, 3.