Ruptre and Repair with Dr. Soe Thein

Instead of good advice. I feel like people, as in the people not only I say people in a way that like humans naturally don't like advice that they don't ask for. In some ways, like when you give advice to someone you know, like it does surprise, you know, in some way cause a rupture.

Hello, I'm Dr. Farrah White.

And I'm Dr. Grant Brenner.

We're psychiatrists and therapists in private practice in New York. We started this podcast in 2019 to draw attention to a phenomenon called the Doorknob Comment. Doorknob comments are important things we all say from time to time, just as we're leaving the office, sometimes literally hand on the doorknob.

Doorknob comments happen not only during therapy, but also in everyday life. The point is that sometimes we aren't sure how to express the deeply meaningful things we're feeling, thinking and experiencing. Maybe we're afraid to bring certain things out into the open or are on the fence about wanting to discuss them. Sometimes we know we've got something we're unsure about sharing and are keeping it to ourselves. Sometimes we surprise ourselves by what comes out. Hi, welcome to Doorknob Comments. I'm your co host Grant, here with Farrah White, and today we're joined by Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist so Thane so is a board certified adolescent and adult psychiatrist practicing in New York with a clinical interest in integrating psychotherapy, medication management, and interventional psychiatry in his care approach. He earned his BS in Neuroscience and Behavioral Biology from Emory University, followed by a research fellowship at the National Institutes of Health where he studied brain plasticity in response to stress. He received his MD from the University of California, Irvine School of Medicine, graduating with distinction in the arts and humanities and receiving honors for his contributions to LGBTQIA health. He completed his psychiatry residency and a Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship at UC Davis Medical center and also pursued a two year psychodynamic therapy training at the San Francisco center for psychoanalysis, finishing in 2024. He remains on faculty at UC Davis, supervising and teaching psychiatry trainees. Dr. TH is also founder of the Good Enough Psychiatrist YouTube channel, where he creates animated videos explaining psychodynamic therapy concepts for a general audience. This channel has won numerous awards including American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Psychotherapy Education Award and the AACAP Leatherman Drell Ritvo Award for Advancing Psychodynamic Therapy for Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. He is currently a psychoanalytic candidate at Columbia University center for Psychoanalytic Training and Research. It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today and good enough psychiatrist YouTube channel. I guess that refers to Winnicott's idea of needing to be a good enough but not a perfect mom. And today we're going to be talking about whatever we want, really, but focusing on a concept called rupture and repair, which I think is related to being good enough.

Right? Totally. I think it feels so. I feel so passionate about this topic and. And hence my channel named Good Enough Psychiatrist. And I feel like this kind of serve as like a North Star on, like, my values and how I want to practice psychiatry in a way of, like, coming from a humble place that I really don't know perfectly what the patients are going through. But I. I will make mistakes. But, like, the important thing is that the process of trying to understand and if I were to make mistakes, repairing, making reparations, I feel like ultimately this. That relational approach is what's healing.

So that might be a little different from what people might imagine they want. Right. They might imagine that they want someone who gets it right 100% of the time. I know, Farah. My sense is that that's how most people feel about your work. But. So how do we reconcile that?

And if you don't mind, I think being too perfect as a parent, as a psychiatrist, actually deprives the other person of the opportunity to get mad and like, rage out at you. Right. Which can sometimes be therapeutic or to sort of have that understanding be compassionate towards you and say, hey, looks like you forgot your keys. You know, no problem, I'll meet you back here in five minutes or whatever little things happen. I do think those are all opportunities. I agree with you. So that it's really how we help people grow.

Yeah.

And I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about some of your. If you're comfortable talking about some of your experiences with that and how it became, you know, important to how you work.

So, you know, I grew up in Burma. It's like a majority half of my life, you know, And I grew up with like a pretty, pretty big family. I would see like a 20 people in the same house. Like, in Burma, it's kind of customary for people to live with extended family. So, like, you know, one thing I learned is, like, there is the individuals, but like in there is also like a group cohesions and community, you know, better for the kind of like quote, unquote community. In some sense, it always feels like the relationships what I perceive and grew up with feels like I'm not supposed to make any disruptions in relationships. Because like, if there's a disruption in relationships between individuals, then like the group or the 20 people, if everyone is making disruption in a relationship, it's kind of hard to function in some way. So like my parents too, they are very kind of not that confrontational. They, you know, they are pretty like in some way like flexible, like with each other and with like my aunts, uncles. It's like. And I. When I, when I first started therapy in residency, I was telling, you know, telling my therapist that is it weird that I have never seen my parents fight, not, not even raised voice to each other. And then. And which is like opposite of like, you know, a lot of the narrative I heard here. So like, and in some way, like, I was really proud of myself. Like, I, you know, before my current relationship, I had like a two long relationships before. In some way I was really proud in those relationships that I actually never fought with my partners. And then like a dad was like, you know, and then like. But at the same time the relationship feel very stifled in that like there is, you know, there is not that much spark, aliveness. And I also feel like it's pretty like sterile in some way. So the. When I started doing therapy, I. And you know, I kind of uncovered that there's a. I feel I have an almost like a intermediate belief that if there were to be disruptions in a relationship that the relationship could, you know, break and, and it could, and it would be in jeopardy. And I was introduced the idea of rupture and repair in the idea when I started the group therapy. In a group therapy, I realized that like when I have, you know, have difficult conversations with like a group members and able to walk through this, I feel much closer to the person. And then like, in some way, like, it makes me wonder like, oh my gosh, is the relationships actually secure if you actually have not tested out right? It's like you are trying so hard to not test it out. How do you know the relationship secure? You only know the relationship secure only when you test it out. So that's like, you know, the conceptions of the mind. How I really came to understand the idea of rupture and repair at a personal level.

Yeah.

Do you think there's an underlying fear like that if there is any conflict, it won't be survivable or something?

Yes, I think it was like a. Well, I think for me it's like a. Two for one is certainly this, the other one is I. I think I was always like a Worry about, like how it will affect the, the group. So like, if it is like a family, less even like a small family. Right. Nuclear family, not 20 people, even like three, four people. I would wonder, like, okay, because I had a conflict with this one, you know, with my partner. How will it affect like other people in the group? So there's like this mentality. Oh yeah. I think like the second one scares me more. Like growing up.

Yeah. My understanding that also varies a lot culturally. I'm no sociologist, but I've read a fair amount about one of the differences sociologists talk about is the difference between communal and individualistic cultures. And so the concern for the well being of the group, I think is generally a very good thing that maybe we don't think about enough. But it can also, it can also be problematic.

I think that kids, like, one big part of their development is pushing boundaries. Right. And seeing what types of behavior they are just naturally provocative in how they explore the world. And a lot of times people will hear, oh, well, you know, your kid just follows instructions and does a great job at school. But that kid comes home and falls apart. Right. And part of it might be because they feel really secure at home. And that's where they're testing out the will you still love me if I, you know, jump out of the bath and run around? Or will, you know. And I think that we all replay some versions of that in our most intimate relationships.

Yeah. Though alternatively, it can be stifling to be well behaved all day long at school and then it kind of comes out later on.

Right.

And then you have a problem if the parents are too controlling and the school is so controlling. Right. And kids have to sit at desks and it's not natural and there's no nature for them.

But I also think that I'm glad this is why I'm glad we're talking about it. Because a lot of times what we perceive as someone being confrontational or someone or a child not listening or a partner, you know, being aggressive or in some way is really, that's part of what makes the relationship strong. The ability to like move through that. And I think if people knew that, then they would be a little bit more relaxed. You know, it's not like, oh, we had a fight and now it's over. It's, we had a fight and now we see how the other person responds.

Yeah. It's like, if you, if you cannot have like this difficult conversations or go through like challenging moments with your intimate partner, how do you know the relationship Is strong. If your relationship is only present when things are good, is it actually strong?

Right.

You know, you really don't know. Who knows? Exactly.

Especially when stuff gets worse later in life and you face real challenges together.

Yeah. And like what I like about the, you know, the rupture repair idea is that is. Is actually we are innately drawn to it. So like it's not that like a skill. It's like a. Almost like an innate capacity to want to walk through Russian repair. I mean we all you guys probably have seen like a distilled phase experiment that like attronics have made. It's like they're showing about the. A baby and then like a mom and then like in the beginning the baby is like smiling and mom is smiling. They are kind of being playful and you know, suddenly the experimenter asked moms to turn around and turn back with like a very still face. And there was a moment of like a disconnection and the baby instantly felt the anxiety. And so like what the baby does is like these are non verbal babies by the way. They, they cannot talk yet, so they try to get attention from mom. They will try to like wave it and then make cooing sound. The mom is like still kind of still face. So it kind of actually escalated at the, you know, in one of the videos the baby actually started like really disregulated and they started biting themselves. So like in some way, like a disconnection can be really as painful that it can induce like self harm in areas in a good enough environment. Of course, like the mom is always not attuned but like they, in they, they even have a study that you only need to be attuned to the, your, your babies about 30% of the time. The rest of the 70%, you're just kind of stepping on each other toes and you're just kind of repairing. And this repair process is what teaches the, you know, cement the baby neurobiology that this is what a realistic relationship should be. There will be repair, but then like you can survive it. You know, there will be another person that is willing to make it right for you.

The idea of the still face experiment is very disturbing to watch these videos because the baby, they tend to flip out. The mom is warm and then is detached. And unfortunately that happens a lot in real life with trauma, with alcoholism, with depression. I know people whose parents were not present because of depression and kids were kind of wired as human beings to need relationships. Right. Just as much as we need food and water and air. And so Kids will do just about anything to try to secure the relationship, even if it means it's at the expense of their own development. Yeah, kid people can be self harming, but they can also really sacrifice their own developmental needs and kind of learn. Right. To put aside what their needs are because their survival is based on being dependent on their parents and so they can really shape themselves. And then as adults, those people really have a lot of difficulty in any kind of relationship, personal, professional, then they'll often come in and I'm curious what you think about this and talk about being like conflict avoidant, which I sort of hear as intimacy avoidant. So I'm curious what you think about that and whether it might be helpful if you could give listeners a little bit of an overview of the concept of rupture and repair, which I think also goes back to Donald Winnicott. Right?

Yeah. Farrah, you want to start?

Sure. I think that a lot of times when kids are sent the message one way or another, and I'll sort of answer the first part of the question. When they get the sense that they have to stay in line in order to take care of a parent, because that they sense either a fragility, sometimes it's a depression and anxiety. Any type, I think of volatility. Right. That is confusing to them because kids who are at a certain age, like a parent might come home having had a really difficult conversation with their boss. But most kids, until they have that higher level reasoning, are going to assume that they did something wrong, that they are the cause of someone else's displeasure. And then I think it puts a sort of burden on them not to explore, not to act out. Sometimes the opposite can happen where they try to become a distraction to sort of like if the parents are fighting too much, then maybe the kid all of a sudden starts to unravel and then the parents come together and take care of the kids. So all of these family dynamics, I think, are the foundation of how we go out into the world and form our own relationships. And so a lot of times when people say, like, I know this isn't good for me because they've sort of grown up, maybe they've had some therapy and they learn that this is not healthy for them and yet they can't stop doing it, it's because they haven't yet had that experience, that rupture repair. Right. And so part of my work with them might be to say, listen, you can be really mad at me. I know it's annoying. I am changing around our Appointments or I am running late, and it's like, that is sometimes their first introduction.

Yeah.

And I will even say that I think sometimes having that repair together is really therapeutic and important, but sometimes they might even need to fire me to really fully, like, for their own development and to be able to say, hey, this isn't working for me.

Yeah.

And that actually is kind of a weird thing for, I guess, a therapist to say. But, like, I would feel like if someone fired, that maybe I did a pretty good job.

Well.

Or maybe you're too busy and there's a wish there.

No, I think it's a matter of being able to say, hey, this is actually not right for me. Or the first step is, I don't like this. Let's try to fix it. And then the second step is, this isn't right for me, whether it's a relationship, whether it's the therapy treatment. So I think that those are. That's how I sort of see it. But we can talk more about the analytic theory behind it. I don't know if you think that would be interesting for people.

Yeah, yeah. You know, the. Your anecdotes on, like, you know, being fired, it makes me think of, like, the famous clip from, like, Carl Young. I don't know if you've seen it. Like, there was the interview, one of his patients. And then, like, Car Young said something really true about herself. At the same time, she got really hurtful. So essentially she fired him. And then the next few years, like, she was really mad at him. And one day she realized what he said was so true. So she called him her office. And then, like, his receptionist was like, oh, yeah, Dr. Yon said you might be calling one of these days. I was like, oh, you know, like, even after a breakup. My point is that even after the rupture, like, the Young really has a hope that they will be repaired. Even after two years, like, when a patient comes, like, he really continue to work on it, and then they reconnect.

He also knows how people work.

Yes.

So one thing I've noticed is, you know, in psychoanalysis, they. It sounds worse than it was intended, but we call it resistance. But it's not a criticism. Resistance is actually a good thing. And so a lot of times when you're talking with someone, they push back on what you're saying. And we can talk about whether there are maybe other approaches rather than getting into the confrontation when you don't need to. But people tend to be that way. Right. We all have kind of different views on things. And if you're confronted by someone else, there's a good chance you're going to kind of push back. But then we also know that later on, people kind of mull stuff over. They don't feel like they have to defend themselves. Of course, you could say that people in therapy shouldn't feel they're defending themselves. It's a matter of the therapist's approach also. But yeah, people think about stuff. And I think if you're Carl Jung, you know, you kind of know what is going to happen because you've done it 100 times. And so you kind of know that people may make connections. That's kind of what happens often in therapy, is that people don't make the connection in the room with you. They talk to a cab driver who says, you look like you had a rough day. And then they have an epiphany. That's the story I've heard. And then they come in and they're like, why didn't you tell me I was depressed? The cabbie picked up on it. And then you have a rupture. Why did you let me down? How do you think about it? Because you're really the child and adolescent psychiatry expert. I know we all know a lot. But what is rupture and repair? Can you tell us a little bit about how Winnicott came up with that term? I'm also thinking about his paper Hate in the countertransference. I'm wondering if that's part of it too, is tolerating hateful feelings more like.

I think like first, like a definition of rupture itself. It's like, what is it? I think like, definition range from like many things. Like, it can be from the, you know, moment to moment. Like a misattunement. In therapy sessions, for example, a patient might be in a play therapy is actually like a much more like obvious than like a talk therapy in a play therapy. Like a kid might say, like, oh, you know, look at what I made. And then he was very excited. And then like, you might miss the excitement. You're like, oh, like. And. And that is a minor rupture. Or it can be really big as like a betrayal. Like in a relation, intimate relationships. Like, you know, being cheated on. Like, that would be, you know, it can. So the rupture can range from like a long spectrum at the same time. Like the repair. You know, there's also like a certain components of like repairs that makes a repair. Like, I'm sure you all have thought about, like, what makes. What makes A repair like effective or is there any or why some repairs feel so like flat and fake because like they actually don't meet all the criteria to repair. So like to me, like, you know, at least like you have to meet like four criteria. Like to really make like an impactful repair for us. Like a people really, really good at is like recognitions that like something the ruptures happen. If you cannot acknowledge this, then like there's, you know, you cannot do anything about it. And then like the, you know, the second point is like, then you have to take the accountability like from the person. Even though you, you know, you have different intentions. But the fact that what you did has that impact on another person by being able to say that, you know, you messed up or like something didn't feel right, that's also important. And then like the third one is that, you know, curiosity and empathy. Like, of course, like if you think about from your own psychologies, of course you only see your point. But if you really wonder another person with their own psychology and with their own background and you may, you may realize why they feel the same way based on their history. I mean, like many of the times, like actually like when I was in group therapy, these three comes easy. But the fourth is the hardest part. Actually the fourth is really making a commitment for yourself to not repeat this. Because if you don't do it the first through only if you continue to the first three, how is it different than someone doing a narcissistic abuse? Right? Then you are just given the four promises of the promises. And is this what the narcissists do? They were like, oh, you know, like, oh yeah, like, you know, you're right. Like, you know, these are flowers for you. Then you don't make any commitments. So like the fourth one is just as committed. So you have to be very mindful how in that impact how, how you had on another person and it really deeply hurt them. And then you try your very best to not to repeat this. So I think if you hit all of these four, whether in your personal relationships or the therapy relationships, this can be really healing. Even like of course we are not perfect. In my therapy session do sometimes like from like a dynamic reasons, right? It may be reenacted, but the fact that I catch it and I was okay, I just repeated something that that happened a few months ago. And then just talking about this can also be like really healing. So at least I think about, you know, rupture and repair in like a personal and like a therapy sessions.

Yeah, that's, that's very thought provoking and heartfelt, I think, about the role of compassion toward oneself and others here and also the deep sense of shame and stigma that people feel that what might seem like ordinary rupture that happens in the course of relationships for someone who's more narcissistically vulnerable, what for another person may seem like not that big a deal feels like a trauma. Right. And we live in a time where kind of every little thing is labeled as a trauma. Now, I'm a traumatologist and I think that trauma is deeply under recognized in many cases. And we were talking about the role of social media before we came on and yeah, like, not everything you don't like is a trauma. So, you know, that's what comes to mind for me is just this kind of need to be more resilient in order to tolerate rupture and in order to embrace repair. And like you said, that motivation. So I'm curious for either of you, like, well, how do people make that commitment? You know, how do they get to that point? Because a lot of times it seems like you would be sacrificing your own kind of justice or integrity to kind of let someone get away with mistreating you.

I think that's such a good question. And it comes up a lot, I think, when people really want to be their most authentic selves, right. So if they are trying to show up in that way and someone does something that they don't like, they might express it maybe in a way that doesn't land well with the other person, like, hey, this was very insulting, or this hurt my feelings, and here's why. And if that person isn't receptive because they themselves either don't think they did anything wrong, can't see what they did wrong, or feel a need to be perfect all the time and just can't tolerate it, then I think it leaves this other person who feels like they built up this nerve to confront someone and it doesn't go well. So I do think that so much has to be in place for people to be able to do it. And the person who, who feels victimized in the first place, you're right. They shouldn't have to think about how or when they're sort of standing up for themselves. But I love to tell people, strike while the iron is cold. You know, after there's been maybe a tense dinner or a tense moment and you didn't like how someone spoke to you. The time to do that is when their defenses are down. And things are relaxed and people will always say, well, then things are good for the moment, so I don't want to talk about it. And I'm like, really not trying to ruin their night. But I'm saying that the way there is a way to discuss these things that I think can go better for both people.

Oh, I love the practical tips on strike when the iron is cold. I agree. It's like you have to pick the right time, the right place. You don't get in a really busy, like times squared. Right. Why would. How would you do it? Yeah, yeah.

What's a guarantee for an unconstructive conflict? Right. There's constructive and there's destructive conflict. And people hate that advice.

Well, because it feels like you don't get it in the moment.

Email.

Yeah. Like, what was that supposed to mean? Right. And at a dinner table full of people, that's probably not the time. You're not going to have a rupture that leads to repair in that.

But why don't people take that obvious good advice. Any thoughts?

I think it requires a presence of mind and like, an overall balance that sometimes people don't have. To me, it's about impulse control and believing that they're doing the right thing because they're finally standing up for themselves.

And if I understand your questions, you're like, why don't people tend to pick the right time setting and then like, pick like a setting that is conducive or constructive repair.

Yeah. And specifically, like, let's say you or Farah, you know, a patient says, like, this happened and we keep getting in fights. And you say, well, why don't you wait until, like, you've had a chance to think through it, you know, what happens? And the two of you, like, yeah, it's a form of intimacy to be fighting. And maybe fighting is the way you merge with each other and you become this like one, you know, fighting identity together, which feels more intimate and maybe it's a substitute for other forms of intimacy. My question for you is, why don't people take good advice? It goes back to the question that I had asked when you said that people need to make the commitment to. Yeah. So I'm curious what you think, because that's the hardest part.

Well, like, instead of good advice, I feel like people, as in a people, not only I say people in a way that, like, you know, humans, like, naturally don't like advice data that they don't ask for. So, like, is in some ways, like, when you get advice to someone you are actually not listening. You know, like, it does surprise, you know, in some way cause a rupture. So this one, whenever there is a rupture and disconnections, and if it is not repaired, it shores up the defenses. You know, we talk about, like, ideal scenarios in a therapy where patients just say, like, oh, you make me mad. Right? I would say, like, that is like a 1%. Like a 99% in a therapy is that I look for other signs, like, where there may be a rupture or disconnection. So it might. It might look something like they suddenly become quiet or they become fidgety, or like they stop bringing up the, you know, deep conversations. Or like, you know, go to your. The name of your podcast on the doorknob. They might can make cancellations, or like, they suddenly forgot your appointments. So, like, these are, you know, all signs of, like, ruptures that I kind of, you know, think about rather than like a, you know, someone saying directly that I'm mad at you. So to answer your questions, I think sometimes advice in the sessions can cause minor ruptures that can go and acknowledged.

Because it's experienced as an empathic failure because you're trying to fix the problem rather than being supportive or something. So would you say to someone, is now a good time to talk about other ways to handle it? Or do you need something else from me? Or would we be, like, trying too hard to avoid the rupture? Like, a lot of therapists might try to avoid a rupture? I wouldn't say try to cause conflict in order to produce a repair, but it kind of happens no matter what you do. But how would you approach that to be more constructive than maybe trying to alleviate our own anxiety as therapists by offering advice? Because everyone wants advice, but no one takes it, right?

Yeah. Go ahead, Farrah.

I think it feels good to not have to take advice. You know, I think some people really pull. You know, they're like, oh, tell me what to do. Tell me what to do. And then the reason is they want to be able to not do it and to reject the advice. And that, I think is really important for some people. I don't necessarily. I think people are conflicted about wanting to make certain changes or change the way that they relate to others. Maybe it's that they want everyone else to do that work. Right? That's why they're coming in. That's why they're going to these family holidays. They're hoping that other people will come in and take care of them. In that way and do the work for them. Maybe because they feel so overworked already. So I don't know. I. I don't know if it's as simple as, like, they don't. People don't want what's good for them. I just think there's just like so many factors.

Yeah, I think the concept of ambivalence that you brought up, Farah, is. It is really interesting. That is true, like whenever there's a change. Right. This is the core of like motivational interviewing. Whenever. Whenever someone is considering change, they are in ambivalent positions and there's pros and cons in their head. And the moment you give advice and take a position, naturally any humans will swing the other way. So before I guess I get to answer your questions, Grant, before you give advice, you know, the preparatory work has to be to resolve the ambivalence. Like a true Twitter. It is true, like listening more or like through motivational interviewing or like a value settings, like to really kind of resolve the ambivalence. It's almost like, you know, I'm also Buddhist. So like there is always a emphasis in the. The right time. So like the right time and the right setting is really important. So sometimes you can say the right thing, but if you deliver it wrong, even at the most, empathic thing can be really kind of perceived as like cruel, callous or like in a. In on contrary, you can say something cruel and callous, but at the right timing, it can come across really empathic. It really is that, you know, being in the relationship in a settings and really knowing that not a person.

Yeah. Feeling safe. That's very different. If you kind of trust the person and you have a track record and I know we're running out of time for today. It's been really interesting. I'm thinking of rupture and repair as also in terms of. Oh, in terms of ambivalence. You know, I think another way to think about it is to imagine we have different parts of ourselves. I'm a multiple self state guy. So if you have this idea that you can have internal contradiction and that's to be expected, then there's less polarization. You have like a kind of like a container for yourself is what someone called it. Beyond. But in terms of rupture and repair, I like the metaphor because Farah, you talked about striking while the iron is cold, which is a reference to striking while the iron is hot, which is an old psychoanalytic idea that you need to make the right interpretation at the right time, which is much more of a perfectionism based model of psychoanalysis. Just as an academic note. So there's an idea, of course, striking something is from blacksmith is from metallurgy. Striking while the iron is hot is like if you need to shape, you know, a sword, you have to, you have to strike while it's hot, so it's malleable. However, if you look at strengthening steel, it's through a process of heating and cooling that maximizes or optimizes the structure of the metal so that it's both strong and flexible or resilient, which is a concept we tend to like a lot. And that process is a metaphor for development, human development, which is called annealing. If you watch a show about metallurgy, like blacksmithing, it's when they heat it and cool it and heat it and cool it. And I think there's a way where rupture and repair is kind of like that, but you have to be able to withstand the rupture in the first place. You can't be too brittle.

Interesting. Yeah, that's a good visual metaphor.

Yeah, I lifted it from. To give proper credit, Robert Galitzer Levy wrote a book where he uses. Actually that was from a paper, but that he uses annealing as a metaphor for development from a complexity theory point of view, which is my favorite thing. And I think complexity theory and Buddhism have a lot of overlap or maybe Taoism. But anyway, any final thoughts? And then we'll ask where listeners can find you.

If you like more about this rupture rape Ideas. On my YouTube channel. There is video on. It's okay to have a conflict. There's animations, videos on like the, you know, it's like a five, six minutes on like a Wintercom fundamentals of like a rupture and repair and a good enough mother.

Yeah, the good enough psychiatrist on YouTube is. It's fantastic. You're an amazing artist and creator. So thank you for that as well. And where else can folks find you if they want to reach out to speak with you professionally?

Yeah, you, you know, I have a practice in Tribeca. It's called, you know, Downtown Psychiatry. And you can go to my website, downtown psychiatry.com and yeah, reach out if you want to, you know, work with me.

Cool.

Thank you so much for being here. It was great to meet you today. And yeah, we will link to your, your YouTube channel. People would be really interested in seeing that.

Yeah, check it out.

Thank you so much for having me, guys. I had such a pleasure talking to you guys.

Pleasure is all ours. Thank you. Remember the doorknob comments Podcast is not medical advice. If you may be in need of professional assistance, please seek consultation without delay.

I love and they believe. Let me say 1, 2, 3. I wanna take a pill.