2-Day Sleep Challenge with Gary Brecka | The Ultimate Human | Day 2

Yeah, Hear me Podcast aired today. So look at that. Look at that. Like, happy, well rested, well slept, individual right there. Francischetti. Did I get that right? Mateo Princess. All right, good. I had. I had to ask him when we got on the podcast, I. I had to ask him how to say his last name. It's Francischetti. And when I actually Googled it, it said it was a pandemic in southern France, so. So, Matteo, we're blessed to have you on board. Mateo is the founder and the CEO of eight Sleep. I have an eight sleep. I don't know. Yeah, you can see it on the floor over there. By the way, I had your 8 sleep tested for EMF today, and it tested very well. You know, there's a plug coming into the back of it, but the fact that it actually has cooling cords that leave the machine and then go to your mattress, and the cords don't actually follow the tubes that bring water into the bed. I was very surprised to get an A plus rating on your eight Sleep for my. From my EMF mitigation testing. I'm going to share that with everybody tomorrow. Turns out on my PEMF mat, that. Which is under my eight Sleep, that I need to disconnect the. The power cord after it runs for 30 minutes. It's doing a beautiful job of putting a low gauss current through my body, which helps me get into a sleep. But there are some nasty EMF waves coming out of. Of that PMF mat, not from the mat itself, but from where the electrical cord comes in from the wall. And so what I'm going to do is, is and get one of those $13 plugins for my wall, and they'll just disconnect it with the click of a button and mitigate that. So welcome to the sleep challenge, brother. You know, we had. We had an amazing talk on the podcast all about sleep. I'd love for you to share with. With my audience, you know, your journey into, you know, what. Where you came from and how you. How you built eight Sleep into the. Into the company that it is today. And then some of the research that you guys have done and the future of eight Sleep. Because, you know, some of the things that Matteo said on the podcast were that your mattress is about to become the most diagnostic device in your. In your lifetime, in your. In your life. You know, recording heart rate variability, irregular heartbeat, sleep patterns, all kinds of things like respiratory rate, and actually crunching that data in real time to potentially even predict the onset of future pathology and disease. So why don't you just take us a trip down, you know, where you started? What, what led to the, what led to your journey into eight sleep and then some of the benefits of eight sleep and what your research has told us about pooling the body and raising the body temperature to help us move through the phases of sleep. You there?

Yeah, of course. Can you hear me?

Well, I can hear you just fine. You're crystal clear on my end.

Gary, can you, can you hear me?

I can hear you just fine. You're crystal clear on my end. Can you hear me? Can hear you just fine, brother.

So, yeah, okay, yeah, I don't know if it's my connection or maybe it's.

Your connection, because I can hear you fine. Can you guys give a thumbs up into the screen if you can hear him?

Yeah.

So my, my group is all giving thumbs up, brother. So hopefully, yeah, everybody's giving you a thumbs up. We can hear you. But now you're frozen at 200 million dollar company doesn't, doesn't pay his wi Fi bill. So. All right, so when we get him back, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll reconnect with him because I really do want you to hear from him. The podcast was amazing. But just like the doctor said yesterday, he actually talked about how, you know, slightly cooling the body just 2 or 3 degrees, pulling you into that first stage of sleep, which is the deep sleep, and then warming you up as you move into REM sleep. The mattress actually senses your movement, senses your respiratory rate, senses your restlessness, and actually makes adjustments to pull you back down into, you know, a deep delta wave of sleep or theta wave of sleep. One of the things I also notice is that, you know, sometimes I'll have an excellent sleep performance score. I got a lot of questions about this, too. We should probably hold some of these for when we, when we hear from Will Ahmed. But I noticed that sometimes you have excellent sleep performance, but you have poor recovery. That was a lot of questions in the chat yesterday about that. So how am I sleeping so well, but I'm not recovering? It's the, you know, sleep has a lot of different things that impact your sleep score, but what really impacts recovery is your deep and restorative sleep along with your REM sleep. So it's actually the, the deep, healthy portions of sleep that are, that are really restoring your recovery and reducing your strain so that you're really able to challenge yourself the next day. So today I'm going to have an intense weight workout which I haven't done yet. And then I'm actually going to do a long swim downstairs in our, in our pool because I'm fully recovered in my, and my strain is very low. Were you guys able to get Mateo back on? Oh, he's still frozen on his end. Okay, so, so, so we'll, we'll, we'll work through that. Why don't we do this? Why don't we allow some of the questions to go into the chat? Because I normally don't open the, I normally don't open this part of the live to questions, but I really want to provide a lot of value on this Sleep Challenge. I really want to encourage you guys to become rule breakers and, you know, more of a, an intimate environment with me. But sleep is so important. I really feel like if all I did for you guys for the rest of your life and you never did another challenge, all you did was learn some sleep tricks and hacks, you know, from this two days. And then I made a big impact on humanity, and I want this sleep Challenge to take on a life of its own and just ripple effect its way around the world. So you're doing awesome, brother. Melatonin. How many times a week can you take melatonin? And what is too much this is. Melatonin is one of those things that is highly, highly individualized. One of the reasons why I, I, I had two sleep supplements up here that, that I actually take, which is the body health one and the 10x optimize was because those, those contain melatonin. But I also recommended one without melatonin. All right, we're back. Can you hear us? You got to unmute yourself, my friend. Yeah, I remember my first apologies.

I don't know what happened to the connection at the office.

That's okay. Eight sleeps going down. So great to have you, my friend. I talked a little bit about our, I talked a little bit about our podcast. I made a nice introduction for you. I want to talk through a couple of things. One, you know, how did eight Sleep come to be? I mean, you know, where were you? What led to the, what led to the launch of eight Sleep? And, and then I want you to talk about some of the research that you've done on body cooling and other metrics that you're measuring with eight Sleep and how that actually is impacting large data pools that you have on improving, improving sleep scores.

So give us a course. So first, everything started. I used to be an athlete, so I was a tennis player. I have always been in recovery and today we call biohacking. And so I always paid a lot of attention to my sleep and all that is connected with that. Then today I'm pretty obsessed with biohacking. So longevity, healthspan lifespan. And I immediately understood the importance of sleep. Health overall is based on three pillars. One is sleep, one is fitness, and one is nutrition. But sleep is really the foundational part, meaning if you start sleeping two hours a night, then you will start eating junk food and you will not have the energy and the focus to train every single day. So sleep is foundational to your health and longevity. And there is plenty of clinical evidence behind that. So around 10 years ago, I started wondering why Elon Musk is taking us to Mars, but we still spend a third of our life on a piece of dumb foam. Why there is no technology in 30 years of our life, assuming we live at least 100 years and what technology can do. And so I started looking at a lot of clinical research. And what I immediately understood is the single biggest factor impacting our sleep quality outside medical disorders is temperature. And this was already proven well before eight sleep. And the reason is your body temperature changes during the night already. You fall asleep, temperature immediately drops, and then a couple of hours, three, four hours before you wake up, the temperature starts rising again. Is your biological clock. And it's called circadian cycle. So what we do at asleep is we didn't reinvent the wheel. We we just simply help your body to do what it's supposed to do. And so to follow this temperature trajectory that is required by your circadian cycle. And so you get in bed and the bed already has a temperature. You can decide if it's hot or cold immediately after you fall asleep. What we call autopilot. So our machine learning and AI models will start cooling you down. And based on the different sleep stages, we will set a different temperature for you.

Can I ask you a quick question? So how does it know that you're falling asleep? It's actually measuring your heart rate. It's measuring your. Yeah. So it's measuring your movements and it knows that you put the book on the nightstand and now you're actually going into a sleep. Okay.

Yeah. So let's start from exactly what the product is just for everyone here. So is a mattress cover that you can install on top of any mattress, so you don't need to change your mattress. It goes on top. Each side of the bed can have a different temperature and there are sensors in each side of the bed. While we track Gary is we track Your heart rate, your hrv, your respiration, your movement. And through all these different factors, we are able to detect your sleep. And so if you're in sleep or awake or also your different sleep stages. And again, this for each side of the bed.

Okay. And so now, now it's cooling you down. And what talk about the different stages of sleep and how it supports the different stages of sleep and the importance of each one. Like, what's the difference between deep sleep and REM versus light? What some people call alpha beta delta waves of sleep.

Yeah, there are a couple of different technical ways to call the different stages, but I always use the grandma rule. So I try to explain it in the way I would explain it to my grandma. So essentially, the two most important phases are deep sleep and rem. And deep sleep is when your physical body is recovering, so all the recovery is focused on the physical part of your body. Well, instead, the RAM is the part where you usually dream and is also the part that is the most helpful for your brain to readjust and reorganize all the information that you collected during the day. And these two different stages of sleep require a different temperature. The very important thing here is when you hear people saying, oh, you should sleep at 68 degrees the whole night, that is wrong. And the reason is 68 degrees might be right for one hour, but it's not going to be right for eight hours or seven hours or nine hours. So usually in deep sleep you need a colder temperature. That is what will maximize your deep sleep. While in rem, you need a temperature that is more neutral. Otherwise your brain will think that you risk to die and will not let you achieve the right amount of REM phase. The reason why for us, it's very easy to identify phases like REM is in rem, your heart rate is accelerated most of the times because you have dreaming, dreaming. So you're living in experience, but your body is completely standing still. Because when you are in ram, the brain deactivates the movement of the body.

They call this a paralytic phase sometimes.

Yeah, correct. And then obviously there is light sleep. And the way I always think of a light sleep is substantially your body being inefficient and is the time that it requires to transition in between these different phases or to get into these phases. Actually, a vision that we have at eight sleep is that we will be able to compress your sleep over time in the next three, four, five years. And the reason will be deep and REM will stay the same, but we will Be able to reduce the amount of light sleep that you need every single night. The bottom line here is if you sleep with a partner, very likely the partner will have different temperature preferences. Obviously the sleep stages will occur at different times during the night. And that is why it's so important that we personalize sensors and temperature for each member of the bed.

Okay. And you know, I, I, I definitely noticed an improvement in, in my sleep since I've been using 8 Sleep. I've been posting all of my scores. But talk a little bit about the technology. You just said something that really caught my attention. What kind of technology are you, are you implementing or data do you have that can reduce light sleep? Because it does seem to me that the time that we spend in bed is a large part of it is, is, I won't say that it's unnecessary. It's necessary because we're sort of moving through these peaks and troughs. And down in the troughs is where we're getting into REM sleep and deep sleep. And these peaks is when we're not really getting the restorative portion of sleep. And if somehow there were a way to slam these troughs together, theoretically we could reduce the amount of time that we need to spend in bed because we would increase the amount of quality that we're getting from the sleep. So what, what data do you have and how, how do you, you know, what's on the Future of, of 8 sleep? What are you guys going to do to, to actually reduce the amount of light sleep that we require?

Yeah, so a couple of things. First, what is important everyone knows is the way the sleep phases are distributed across the night is not equal. And so in the first part of the night your body will try to get more deep sleep than rem and in the second part of the night you will try to get more REM than deep sleep. Which means that physically for your body, priority number one is always deep sleep. So the physical recovery and then there is what I would call the mental recovery. What we see with our data is that we can give you up to 30% higher sleep quality. Sleep quality means that you can get more deep sleep, more rem. But another thing we also reduce is usually toss and turns and micro wake ups. And usually when you obviously you have these microwave ups or you toss and turn, you're getting light sleep. And so all these are micro inefficiencies that you can get dozens of time every single night. If we can cut that by 50%, we can immediately give you more high quality Sleep or high quality sleep faster. What we see is that we are able with some of our users to give them even more, almost one hour of higher quality sleep per night just by reducing all these micro interruptions or compressing the time that it requires to the body to transition between the key relevant phases like deep and rap.

So the temperature you said adjusts automatically. There were some questions in the, in the chat about that. So how does, how does eight sleep adjust the temperature? Is it, is it, is it based on your movement, your respiratory rate, or is it based on time?

Yeah. So first of all, when you install the device, you go through a process where we try to understand what are your preferences. Right? So first of all we want to know, okay, who you are, gender, age, body body percentage and body fat percentage and this kind of information and your special preference. Right. Certain people like to get in a bed that is really hot, or some people like to get in a bed that is really cold. Then once we have this sort of baseline, we use artificial intelligence and different algos to continuously adjust the temperature in a way that is close to your baseline to what is your preference. We adjust based on a couple of different things. So first of all, we use your sleep stages, your biometrics. So again, deep sleep and rem, mainly because you need two different temperatures. But we'll also look at your heart rate and your hrv. What we have seen in clinical studies is that we can improve your heart rate at rest, which means a lower heart rate at rest. And we can also improve your hrv, which means a higher hrv. But then we do also another couple of things. First we have the information of your zip code. And so we also look at the environment, also the temperature of the bedroom. And the reason why all this matters is obviously the temperature of the bedroom. If it's really hot or really cold might require a different temperature. But if there is a heat wave or a winter, no snowstorm, that might have a physiological impact on your body during the day. And so you might feel warmer or colder. So all these factors are taken into consideration by our algos when they adjust temperature. And now we're also working on an integration with Apple Health. And so we'll have data about did you train today and at what time did you train? Let's say you train later in the afternoon, probably your heart rate is accelerated and your body is warmer just because of the physical activity. And so that will be taken into account in your temperature.

Okay, there's a couple of questions in the chat that I want to I want to read and throw out to you. One was, you know, Nick asked, how can we determine what the optimal amount of sleep is by category and on average. And I think by category he's probably talking about deep versus REM versus light sleep. So how they determine which of those, you know, on average is, you know, how much of that that they need and what factor impacts each type of of sleep? Like what factors are you aware of, aside from temperature maybe, that impact deep sleep versus REM sleep?

Yeah, great, great questions. So the first thing I would say is obviously sleep is very personal, so I'll share some, I would say general trends or data, but everything is different for, you know, so I would say goal is usually to sleep seven to nine hours, right? You want to be in that range. Very few people can, can perform really well with less than that. In terms of percentages. Usually deep sleep, you want to be at least above 18%. At least that is the magic number for me. Could be even above 20 to be really healthy or feel really good. And REM usually is probably you want to be above 20, sometimes above 25. Just as general ballparks then for me, for example, I struggle more with deep sleep than REM. REM, I'm pretty strong on the 25%. While instead for deep sleep, I, I Sometimes I get 15 factors that impact that. The biggest one is definitely alcohol. And you and I, Gary, we spoke about that in the podcast. So what we see is in general, again, an average is if you have alcohol before going to bed, probably you will lose 20% sleep quality. Rule of thumb, then when we talk about alcohol, what matters is how many drink you had and how much time did you leave between the last drink and the time you went to bed. So if you have a glass of wine and you go to sleep four hours later, probably the impact is way minimal. If you had three, four cocktails and then you just go straight to bed, probably your sleep quality will drop.

I absolutely agree with that, by the way. So one asked if the tower makes noise. No, it's absolutely whisper quiet. Like in a completely dark, silent room, you. You can't hear that run at all. It does have a little light indicator on the bottom that lets you know sort of what stage it's in, whether it needs to be refilled with water or not. I actually just slide a towel up against that light and you can dim.

That down in the app.

Oh, you can. Okay, so I don't know about that feature yet, but I'm happy to know that I just I just use an old school towel right against the light. It says, how does this interface with a PMF mat? So for me, my PEMF mat is beneath my eight sleep. So it goes mattress, pmf, eight sleep, mattress cover, and then my, my fitted mattress. That's how I have it in there. Now I'm actually going to do some EMF mitigation. I did not have to do it for the eight sleep. So hats off to these guys because again, the unit is far enough from the bed that the field is not bothering me. And then the tube that has the coolant that's propelling the water, clearly that's not conducting electricity. So it's actually not contributing to, to pour EMFs in the bed. So that was another thing that I was happy to hear. I was actually surprised that the emf, the PEMF mat, which I'm an enormous fan of and I travel with everywhere, did have some minor electrical field. It wasn't major, was below 50 gals, but it had some minor electrical field because it was still plugged in. So I'm gonna, I'm, I'm implementing a disconnection solution to that. I'm also mitigating EMF in the whole house, which I'll, I'll share with you guys. So it says, what's your opinion on siestas, on naps for adults? And do you have any data on, on napping in terms of its impact on your sleep at night?

Yeah, so I'm a big, big fan of naps. And what I always.

Spanish, right?

So yeah, yeah, Italian. But yeah, love it too. And I'm a big proponent of what is called napuccino. I don't know if you ever heard of that, but substantially you have a coffee. Let's say you have an espresso. I'm Italian. Right before you nap. And so it will take around 30 minutes for the coffee to kick in and by the time you should wake up. So the key of the nap is you don't want to get into deep or ram stages. And so to do that you want to keep the nap no longer than 20, 30 minutes. And it will be enough to just decompress the pressure of adenosine on your brain, which is what makes you feel tired. And so my advice is after lunch or somewhere around 1 2pm, take a nap if you can. No longer than 30 minutes. 20 to 30 minutes, have an espresso right before. By the time you wake up, the nap will reduce the adenosine pressure. Plus the coffee kicks in and you Will feel like a superman.

Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting tactic to have an espresso right before you take a nap to sort of limit the amount of time that you'll be napping. You know, you touched on adenosine and, and I want to touch on that too, because a lot of times we don't really understand the whole sleep wake cycle and the important role that adenosine plays on, on sleep. You know, as it rises, we actually become more tired and more sleepy. One of the things that caffeine does is not the direct stimulatory effects of caffeine, but the blocking effect, the dulling effect that it has on adenosine. Interestingly, I've seen a lot of data and I wonder if you have any data on when people should drink coffee. Getting out of bed. And most of the consensus of what I see is 60 to 90 minutes after getting out of bed in the morning to allow the level of adenosine to actually come down naturally so that it will then build throughout the rest of the day. So do you have any, do you have any data on adenosine or do you have any, anything to add to that about the adenosine?

Yeah, the approach you suggested is what is currently recommended. I think Andrew Huberman talks about that too. Right. So a couple of hours, anywhere, 60 to 120 minutes after you wake up. The other big thing with coffee is usually what is recommended is you stop drinking coffee six to eight hours before you go to bed. So that is more or less the framework I follow. I go to bed somewhere around 9:30 to 10pm and so around eight hours before that, I try to stop having any sort of coughing.

Okay. And then what about other metrics that you're aware of that affect your sleep? So for example, I notice if I'm consistent with chronic grounding with sunlight, even with I'm very, very consistent with morning breath work. But there's some times where I actually don't get sunlight, natural light, and I also don't get a chance to ground. So what about some of those metrics on sleep? What sort of other ancillary metrics are you aware of that actually have a positive impact on sleep? Like grounding, sunlight, breath work?

Yeah, a couple, so here are a couple of tips that, that I use. First, if you can, if you have a sauna, nice bath, doing those late in the evening or right before going to bed, that thermal shot is incredibly effective. And so in a perfect world, if you have a sauna and an ice bus you want to do sauna, 20 minutes, ice bath, sauna 20 minutes, ice bath, iPads for three to five minutes and go straight to bed. Another option is you just do it around 6pm and then you have dinner and then you go to bed. But it really relaxes you. That is my favorite and most effective thing. If you don't have a sound and ice bath, which is probably very likely, you can still play with even the shower. Do a hot shower for 2, 3 minutes, then cold and warm and cold. That is one tactic. The second is breath work. There are a lot of different tactics. You and I, we were talking about that the box breathing is one of the most well known. So you breathe in for four seconds, you stop for four, you breathe out for four and then you stop for four and you repeat. And that will really help your body to calm down and potentially to fall asleep. You want in general the bedroom to be fairly cold, whatever is the right temperature for you. The average is 68. For me, I feel too cold at 68 also because I have the pods, so I'm more in the 70s. Another tactic I use is orange lights. So I have Philips you at home. All my lights switch to orange automatically around 8pm and that will help the development of melatonin. And the other big thing here is routine. And you and I were talking about that in the podcast. But at the, at the end of the day, the number one thing you want to do is to have a routine. You have a biological clock. So you need to train your body to go and fall asleep every night at the same time and wake up at the same time. The thing and I, if you remember, we're talking about is how, how we do this with babies, right. I don't have kids yet, but I have a lot of friends who have kids and they are very methodical about having the same routine with their babies every single night and so that the baby falls asleep and then they sleep the whole night. We just believe that when we are adults we don't need this anymore. But the reality is we have the same thing.

So true.

Let's just use the same framework and just be consistent with your routine and you will see massive progress in your sleep performance.

Excellent. You know, I, I, I do notice that sunlight exposure. Another thing that I had tested today, which I'm also going to share with you guys, was I tested the ambient light. The light, I don't know if you can see, you can't really see the windows of my unit, but I've got 14 foot doors that are, that are pretty much all glass. So there's a lot of natural light that comes in. But what was interesting about the light when we measured it in the unit today was that an entire spectrum of therapeutic wavelength was missing, meaning an entire spectrum of the infrared, near infrared, healthy wavelength spectrum that I get in red light therapy and red light beds was missing. And as soon as we opened the door and we went outside with the light meter, you saw that entire spectrum appear again. So there is something to be said for sure about exposure to natural sunlight. And I get a lot of questions about this from folks that are in cold climates. But yes, if you can expose your skin to sunlight, your eyes to sunlight in the morning, if you can do some horizon gazing in the morning, even if it's cold outside, you can only be out there for a few minutes. You can that natural sunlight on your skin and horizon gazing and actually getting out, getting some fresh air, getting a morning routine, breath work routine. I have noticed consistent improvements in sleep score when I get consistent with that schedule. Someone asked the question about does napping have an effect on your circadian rhythm?

Yep. No, there are actually no perill if you keep it below the 20, 30 minutes mark, because again, you don't get into deeper ramp.

Okay. And, and then I also wanted to talk about, because we touched base with it a little bit on the podcast was some of the future for eight sleep. I found very fascinating because, you know, we spend a third of our lifetime in bed. And what if during that third of your lifetime, you were actually collecting health data and using that health data as a predictor for the possibility of, of future pathology down the road? And this is the fourth pillar that I talk about about what is so exciting about the next five years in the revolution going on in medicine. Unfortunately, the regulatory environment will not be able to keep up. Modern medicine will not be able to keep up. So we need to take this into our own hands. But one of the interesting things that we started talking about was using your sleep time to collect data on your body. And there's a lot of things that you can predict when you start to develop a baseline over a prolonged period of time, when you see different anomalies like respiratory rate, you know, things like that that are heart rate, heart rate variability that are changing. What are some of the things you guys are doing in eight sleep to turn this into, you know, dare I say, a medical device? I don't want to put it in a category that you're not trying to put it in, but what sort of data are you collecting? What do you see as the future of artificial intelligence and large data collection?

Yep, Great question. Our whole vision, my whole vision. I wrote a memo about this in 2017 and it was, and it is that your bed will become the most sophisticated preventative health platform that you have ever seen. And the reason why that is possible is first, you use it every day. You use it for eight hours, you're standing still, There is a lot of space and there is wi fi or there is potentially power, right? So you don't need a battery to power the sensors. And so what we do today is we're not a medical device. Because the definition of medical device you need to have no FDA approvals and certain certifications. We're getting there. But from a practical standpoint, we have 99 accuracy at tracking your heart rate compared to a medical grade ekg, which if you think it, yeah, it blows my mind. And not because it's eight sleep, but if you think you go to bed as you did for the rest of your life and this thing without you wearing anything is as accurate as a medical grade ekg, Tracking your heart rate, given how big is the cardiovascular disease industry in the world, is a pretty big deal. We have 97% accuracy of tracking your heart rate. And so obviously things like these are really relevant. They were very relevant during COVID but even today, if you have a cold or anything, and we are working on technologies for body scanning. What I wrote in this memo in 2017 is that your bed should scan your body every single night. The reason why I had this vision and idea is that there are certain type of cancer that if they are detected very early, you have 90% chances to survive. But if they are detected too late, you have 90% chances to die. These are actually what happened to the dad of my wife who died of colon cancer. There are noninvasive technologies where first, the first cancer will be able to detect the skin cancer. That is pretty simple. With computer vision, we will be able just to scan your face and certain parts of the body. Then we can use thermography, which is substantial thermal imaging to see if certain areas of your body are becoming warmer than they usually are. And so maybe we start seeing that your pancreas is way warmer than it used to be. This we might not know if it's a cancer or something else, but we definitely know there is an inflammation. And that should be enough for you to go to a doctor and start running the right exams to see if there is anything that is being developed. Inside your body.

Well, that's to see. This is what I mean about how fascinating technology is becoming in the impact that it's going to have on our life and how we're becoming our own citizen scientists. You know, I'm also very interested in performance. We have a number of triathletes and competitive athletes with some distance runners that are a part of this group. They've been a part of my sleep group. What kind of data do you have on recovery and performance related to sleep? The impact that it has on athletic performance specifically?

Yeah. So first, we have data. We work with a lot of Formula One drivers. Around 60, 70% of Formula One drivers, they sleep on our product. And the number one reason is obviously at the start, the reaction time is extremely important, and they see a pretty meaningful difference correlated to the quality of their sleep. Right. So if they sleep pretty poorly, this might impact their reaction time at the starting of the race, for example, or also their ability to course correct the car. If anything happens during the race, then there is a direct correlation. There are a bunch of clinical studies showing a correlation between injuries and sleep quality. And then I think you and I, we were talking about the fact that when the time changes and substantially, we lose one hour of sleep.

Statistically incredible statistic. Yeah. I want you to explain this one in detail. This is going to blow your mind. Yeah.

So the day after there is the time change and we all lose one hour of sleep. Car accidents, they go up and heart attacks, they go up. And this has been proven over, I believe, the last 10, 20 years or whatever, but over a very long period of time. And so there is statistical evidence that simply by losing one hour of sleep one night, on a large scale, this will have a negative impact in your health and also on your safety on the road.

Yeah, that's pretty incredible. What he didn't say was there's a corresponding switch in the other direction when we actually get the extra hour of sleep. So there's a negative impact on cardiovascular events and car accidents when we lose an hour of sleep, there's a corresponding positive event, meaning reduction in car accidents and cardiovascular incidents when we actually just get one hour of sleep. One additional hour of sleep. Just that shift in daylight savings time in large pools of data has over and over pointed to the exact same metric. Increase in cardiovascular events when we lost an hour, a decrease when we gained an hour, and an increase in motor vehicle accidents when we lost an hour, and a decrease when we gain. So it's pretty, pretty astounding.

Gary, can I Add one thing. So here is a test for everyone who is listening to us. For one week, sleep one hour longer every single day. At the end of the week, you will have slept seven hours more than usual, which is substantially. You gain one night of sleep and you just tell me how. So you sleep one hour longer every single day for a week. Just for a week. Okay, so you gain one hour per day times seven. That is seven hours, which is substantially one night of sleep at the end of the week. Right? So you slept. Then you tell me, you tell us how you feel. And that will be the most obvious evidence of the importance of sleep.

And, you know, I find that for me, it is much more beneficial for me to try to go to bed earlier than it is for me to sleep later. Some of you guys have reported having the same thing. Your waking time is at the same time every night. I mean, this happened to me on New Year's Eve, you know, my one night a year that I actually, you know, go out and I went out with my family, came home after 12 o' clock in the morning, actually happened at a UFC fight. And when I went to a UFC fights in Miami, I came home at 3 or 4 in the morning. It happened to be that because the fights were on the west coast, the last fight didn't end until 1:00 clock in the morning. And then we hit daylight savings time and so we actually jumped the clock forward. And I wanted the worst night's sleep of my life. No alcohol, no nothing. I came home, I actually did my contrast therapy. I went to sleep just fine. I could not sleep past 7:00 in the morning. And I just basically laid there in that myriad of soup of sort of half awake and half groggy. And then finally I just got up and just dealt with it for the rest of the day. So if you're one of those people like me, if you're going to try this, you know, additional amount of sleep, you know, try to add to the time that you go to bed, meaning back to time that you go to bed, rather than try to extend the amount of time that you're, you're, you're in bed. What other major sleep metrics can what other major sleep metrics can people use to improve their sleep? What are some of the things that you see consistency in bedtime, lack of alcohol? What are some other major impacts that you've been able to find on, on sleep that we could tips and tricks that we could give these guys?

The other big one is obviously being In a very dark room, we might not notice that, but that has an impact on the quality of the sleep. Now, internally at eight sleep, we started testing a lot of different supplements. Now, you might have heard of supplement X or Y, but most of these studies in sleep, they are run for a very short period of time with a very limited number of people. And so now that we start having hundreds of thousands of people sleeping on our devices, we have a data group of thousands of people and we test a lot of things with them. And so when you hear, oh, should I take magnesium Ashwagandha, it isn't that there is no real clinical evidence, at least at scale. And we are working on some of these supplements to create what I call the sleep elixir, which is a formula that you can take every single night to just improve your sleep baseline.

And what kind of things are in that sleep elixir?

Definitely magnesium. We are exploring glycine, gaba, ashwagandha, and a few other, I would say, secret but completely organic and healthy ingredients.

Okay, so a lot of people are asking questions about staying asleep. Frequent urination at night, waking up in the middle of the night, unable to go back to sleep. Some people even waking up at 3, 4 in the morning and feeling wide awake, almost like they're rested. But if they get out of bed and start their day at that time, they notice that they, that they're exhausted really early and in, in the day. So what kind of, what kind of tricks do you, do you have for. For maybe duration of sleep, not just getting into bed and falling asleep, but actually staying asleep, you know, at night?

Yeah.

Is it very frequent urination, if you have anything for that?

Yeah. For insomnia, right in the middle of the night, it's very tricky. Obviously, there are a lot of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. Cbti, it's called. Number one thing that all the sleep doctors recommend is if you can't fall asleep within 5, 10 minutes, you should get out of bed because you don't want to create a mental association between you being in bed but being unable to fall asleep. Because then you will create this tension every time you go to bed where you don't know if you will fall asleep as a substantially. If you feel your mind is racing in the middle of the night and you wake up, just get out of bed and try to distract. The other thing that usually works in this situation is breath work. Not always, but that is what I do when it happens to me. And again, you could use the box breathing but there are many other different techniques. Go ahead.

Well, I was going to say the one that I use is I use box breathing and I also use the six second inhale, a second or two pause in a long, slow six second exhale. And I always exhale through an imaginary straw. So I breathe in through my nose, I pause and then I breathe out through an imaginary straw and I do this little visualization technique where I actually visualize myself breathing thoughts out of my head into my lungs and then breathing those thoughts out of my lungs out into the air. And again, I know that that sounds really hokey, but it truly works when I have, you know, if there's thoughts running around in your head, I literally use my breath to pull those thoughts down into my lungs and then I imagine those thoughts in my lungs and then I and I breathe them out and I imagine those thoughts exiting. You're really not going to be awake. Problem solving in the middle of the night. So it's actually better to try to get past those than it is to find, focus on them and engage them and just further that dialogue in your mind. What about things like exercise and sleep, exercise and sleep for recovery? Are you finding that exercising at different times has different impacts on sleep? For people that are not exercising at all and they want to start a basic exercise routine like walking, is there any evidence that you've seen clinical evidence that that shows that exercise at certain times during the day or exercise at all has a positive impact on your sleep?

Yeah. Let's start from what you shouldn't do, because that is very clear. So I play Padel and I always play Padel tournaments on Thursday night and is the worst thing I can do for my sleep. So I play well, it destroys my sleep. So don't play Padel on Thursday night after 8. So essentially I play from 8 to 11. That is how long it takes usually this tournament. And I go home first, is late for me because by 10 I'm always in bed. But the biggest problem is it creates adrenaline, it reactivates my heart rate and it increases my body temperature. And so again you have this circadian clock and this body temperature that usually follows a certain cycle. By doing this exercise at that time, your body temperature is not dropping, is actually increasing. And so your body doesn't know what time of the day is anymore. And so it takes me a couple of hours to fall asleep and then the sleep quality is usually terrible. And this is something that happens a lot also to NBA players, for example. We work with a lot of them and the problem is they have the match in the evening and then they do know that they talk to the media. By the time they go to the hotel, it's 1am and their biological clock is completely screwed. So my advice is try to not exercise after 6, 7pm at the latest. Usually what is recommended is exercise in the morning is a great way to not to kick off the day, to activate your body, your hormones. And you're also done for the day so you already feel good. And also by doing exercise, probably you will eat better during the whole day.

Okay, that's, that's really good to know. You know, someone had a question here. This is, this is kind of an interesting one too, because we always talk about some of the ancillary things that are affecting sleep that might be highly individualized. Not just general things like mealtime, alcohol, inconsistent bedtime, but specific things that are going on in your body that can affect sleep. And somebody brought up an interesting one, which I happen to know. Ken interrupt your sleep and Susie said, do you recommend any Candida supplements that could help with yeast or fungus? I've been told the parasites and Candida can wake you up during the night and disrupt sleep, which is actually very true. They create, you know, any, anything that creates that, you know, pain in the gut can certainly can certainly wake you up. If you don't have an answer for that, I do. But are you familiar with, I mean, anything that's recommended for Candida or supplements that could help with yeast or fungus that might be waking people up at night?

No, I'm not an expert on that.

So I wouldn't consider myself an expert either. But I will tell you that Candida absolutely feeds on sugar. So high glycemic meals will. Will make Candida worse. If you have something called sibo, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, which is a lot more common than you think, think one of the ways to spot SIBO is that you don't actually have a stomach ache. You have a tightness below the stomach right here, below your rib cage, almost like somebody is grabbing this area inside your body and putting it within a fist. That's usually the bloating and the gaseous contents of the Candida bacteria, the small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. If you want information on that, I'm happy to send you a list of supplements that I would recommend if you have something like that. There's some great parasite cleanses on the market and there's some great Candida cleanses, but the number one thing that I can tell you is to reduce your glycemic profile, even eliminate fruits completely for a short period of time so you can starve these bacteria out in a. In a state of ketosis. Getting awake at 3 o' clock in the morning is a constant for me. Would it be able to when I be able to sleep well tonight? Daily Question. The impact of my performance is huge. I have a steady. I have sadly associated sleep with fear instead of rest, peace and health. So getting awake at 3 o' clock in the morning is a constant for me. Would be able. Would I be able to sleep well tonight? And she said the impact of my performance is huge. I'm sadly associating sleep with fear instead of rest, peace and health. Anything that you that you or ate sleep might be able to do to dissociate that sleep with fear or help help Renata stay asleep longer and not wake up at 3 o' clock in the morning.

Yeah. So that is the typical case of cbti. Again, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. The number one thing you want to do, I mean it's tough, right? But the number one, the number one thing you want to do is to try to disconnect the bedroom and the bed from these insomnia. And so if you feel that you can't fall asleep, you need to leave the bed, you need to leave the bedroom and just come back when you feel that you can fall asleep again. Otherwise you will really create this association that will just negatively impact even more the quality of your sleep or your ability to fall asleep.

You know, one of the things that my wife does is remember that those of you that have that COMT gene mutation, that catechol O methyltransferase gene mutation. This is associated with higher levels of catecholamines. Catecholamines, because they are fight or flight neurotransmitters, also have a tendency to not only create a fear response, but they have a tendency to create fear like thoughts. So those of you that have awakened state at night. If you really think about it, when you start to consider scenarios, you will very often consider worst case scenario. You can even catch yourself the next morning go, whoa, I really took that thing for a ride. You know, if you consider a scenario going on in your life or your job or your career, with your spouse or with your kids, you immediately go to worst case scenario. That's also an indication that you have excess catecholamines. Two things I've found that work excellent to reduce those are the magnesium and also methyl folate 5mThF5 methylfolate or the methylated version of, of folic acid. So I know we only have you for a couple of minutes. Just in general, top three or four things that people can do in their environment to develop good sleep hygiene. And the top three or four things that 8 Sleep has found are negatively or positively, you know, impacting sleep aside from actually having the cooling mattress itself.

Yeah. So number one thing is routine, right? Be consistent to go to bed at the same time, wake up at the same time. Second, try to set a cold temperature in your bedroom. You don't want it to be too hot or you will struggle to get the right amount of deep sleep. In particular, three, avoid alcohol at least one hour or two hours before bed and stop drinking coffee six to eight hours before going to bed.

Yeah, to this one, this sleep role which I posted in there. This 10, three, two, one.

Yeah, yeah. If you, if you can try these thermal shocks, it could be with hot and cold showers or it could be with sauna and ice bath, but it will relax you a lot. Switch the lights to orange. One hour or two hours before going to bed. And the other big thing I always tell people is when you go to bed, right, let's say you sleep eight hours. It's like an intercontinental, like you're going from New York to Milan every single day. You just don't recognize it because you're unconscious. And so before a big flight like that, you would prepare. And so find your time to prepare before going to bed. Get into the zone, whatever it takes. It could be reading, it could be chat with your best friends about good things, but try to avoid anything that will stress you, anything that will stress you out. You can't work until five minutes before going to bed and pretend to fall asleep and wake up fully rested the following day. And so think of yourself like an athlete and get into the zone. Or usually take 30 to 60 minutes to get into the dawn to be fully ready to go to sleep. Because by investing one hour, you gain eight hours of success, right? You're not wasting one hour, you're gaining eight hours.

That's such a great way to look at it. Yeah, I mean I think that sleep literally is the best biohack, it's the best longevity hack, it's the best functional hack for your business, for your family, for your career, for your energy, for your focus, concentration, short term recall. I mean, I just find that when, when I focus on improving the, the sleep metrics of, of clients of mine, which is one of the first things I do when I work with clients is I. I really aggressively go after their sleep because I feel like in the absence of a good sleep foundation, you know, nothing else. Nothing else really matters. When people are chronically fatigued, when their brains have not detoxified or repaired or regenerated or eliminated waste, when their bodies haven't had a chance to fully recover, either from physical exercise or just exhaustion. And by recovery, this also means downregulating things like cortisol and adrenaline and just clearing some of these hormones, you know, from the human body. Then I find that, you know, it's. It's a real uphill battle, which is why I put so much time and effort into our sleep scores. I. I want to actually bring one person up. Can we actually bring one of the rule breakers up? There's, like, six of them waiting in the waiting room. Because we've got him for another five minutes. And see if we can handle two or three quick questions. Hey, man. William.

Hey.

Hey, buddy.

What's up, man? I just wanted to say thanks. First off, I've been following you for a while. You guys do great work.

That's great, man. Thank you.

Yeah.

So I had a couple questions. One difference between sauna and steamer for sleep purposes.

Well, I'll let Mateo take that one, and then I'll take a shot at it.

Yeah, definitely sauna. Because. Because it's obviously dry compared to. Compared to the steam and the temperature of the sauna. You want a finished sauna?

Yeah.

So in my case, I go to 190 degrees Fahrenheit, and then the ice.

Okay. All right. And then weighted blankets. Any thought on them?

There is some studies and some evidence that it could help. I think it's very, very personal. At least this is what we see in our data. So if you like it, it can give you this sense of coziness and it can help you relax. But again, it's extremely personal. I move a lot in bed, and so for me, for example, I don't use them because it just makes everything more difficult. But I know a lot of people that they love them.

Okay. All right.

And the other one, the last one I had was you were talking about temperature. And as far as, you know, it's, you know, best to go to bed in a cold environment, say, 68. And so I was wondering if. Can you set a. Your thermostat to raise during the night so it come. It automatically gets hotter in the room? Would that be suffice as far as your sleep temperatures?

Not really, because you need the Temperature to change based on your sleep stages. And so if the thermostat doesn't know in what sleep stage you are, and obviously you're also not in contact with that. So the difference with our technology is you're in contact with the batch where you're substantially in contact with the COVID And so in real time, when we see you're in a certain sleep stage, we automatically change temperature, immediately impacting the body. I got you.

Okay, thanks.

Well, that's all I got.

And then one more. Ralph Rettner. Oh, you're gonna spotlight him. Okay. Yeah, he's a dc he had. There he is. Is that Ralph? Hey, Ralph Raphael. Sorry, not Ralph Raphael. Yeah, I have a problem where if it's too cold, I can't fall asleep. And if I put the heat on, I have a timer on it. Sometimes the heat wakes me up. And I also have a deviated septum which causes sleep apnea. Just wanted to know if you have any thoughts on that.

Yeah, we see that with many of our customers. I think that is where probably we can help the most because it's not even timer based for us. And so as soon as you fall asleep, we will change the temperature. I don't know if you have my problem, but my extremities are always cold, and I can fall asleep if my feet are cold or my hands are cold. And so I like to get in a bed that is slightly warm, but as soon as I fall asleep, the temperature changes. And so I fix the problem for me and for sleep apnea. Snoring. We are launching actually tomorrow a new product that will help you to reduce. Now our case is snoring.

Wow. Where can they find out more about.

That 8 sleep.com tomorrow morning after 6, 6am go and check it out.

Awesome, Mateo. Thank you so much, brother. I appreciate you giving us your time. I know you're a busy man. You're running a huge company. I really enjoyed our podcast. You guys check out our podcast. It just aired today. He's a phenomenal human being. And there's so many tips and tricks on, you know, the podcast. You know that one. One of my philosophies is I. I do not just endorse products and services. I don't do ad reads on my podcast for things that I do not use every day in my daily life. I actually do use the eight sleep. I've been very public about posting my sleep scores. My sleep scores are in the whoop group. If you're in the whoop group, they're On Instagram. If you follow me on Instagram, I throw them up on TikTok. So, you know, this has had a material impact on me. I know that this is an investment some of you may not be prepared to make, but as you, you know, as you become, you know, more financially capable, I think investing in, in sleep and biohacking devices, some of the best places that we can, we can put our money. So, Matteo, thank you so much, brother. I appreciate everything you're doing for us. You've got a world class product. I wish you all the success in the world and I'm excited to see where the world of big data goes with your company.

Of course. Thank you, Gary, for having me and thank you all. Thank you so much.

You got it, Mateo. Okay, so Will, Will's team is going to be getting him on now. This, this is going to be a real treat because Will's even next level, you know, in terms of the tens of thousands of data points that they have again on real human beings. And I'm not trying to push the whoop on you. Aura's great, Fitbits are great. You know, Apple wearables are great, the sleep aid is great. But the information that these guys have collected on, on voluminous amounts of human beings and how they are turning this into actionable data, in my opinion, is one of the greatest, you know, amazing parts about the revolution of, of modern medicine. I actually want him to tell you about their Covid detection, how they were able to actually work with during the pandemic to predict Covid three days before people even came down with symptoms. So really, really interesting story. It's also an interesting way for you to predict three days ahead of time on when you might actually be coming down with a virus or a bacteria and might be getting ready to become sick so you can actually intervene early. So Will Ahmed has just entered the waiting room. We're going to put him up on, on stage. You gonna bring him in? Will.

Hey, Gary.

How are you, brother?

Good, man. How you doing?

Well, you got some sunshine up there for a change. I thought it would be gloomy and get to rub it in your face a little bit.

Boston weather taking a change for the positive here.

Yeah. So, ladies and gentlemen, this is Will Ahmed, the visionary founder and, and CEO of whoop. It's been a pleasure getting to know you and your wife, you know, and, and really a pleasure getting to, to get deep into the technology that you've, that you've built. He's an incredible entrepreneur. You know, if I were to brag about him a little bit. You know, he started this as a, he was a data nerd. Like, like I was, you know, out of, out of grad school and just had a vision to change the world with data and just thought, why are we not able to take some of the data that exists in modern medicine and technology and put it into a wearable so we could turn it into, you know, actionable steps that could impact humanity. Our podcast is coming out, what, next week on next Tuesday. So that's going to be another must watch. He's built a multibillion dollar company and wearables, has collected tons of data on human beings, crunched it into actionable steps. So, Will, we're, we're, we're really blessed to have you on the, on the call today. I'd love for you to just talk about a little bit about the genesis of whoop. You know, I mean, there are a lot of entrepreneurs on this call. I think your story is very inspiring. And then I want to get right into, you know, some of the metrics for sleep recovery, strain, different phases of sleep, and what big data is saying, from your perspective about how we can improve sleep scores for humanity. Awesome.

Okay, Gary, thank you so much for having me. I'm a huge fan of yours and everything you're doing for the world of human performance. And folks, it's great to be with all of you here today. I founded whoop, really with the mission to unlock human performance. We set out to build really the most accurate wearable technology you can see here on my wrist, if you've got the video on, to be able to continuously measure the body sleep, recovery, strain, stress. There's a whole health monitor capability that will alert you if things are awry. There's a coaching capability which maybe we'll talk more about, but it's a very comprehensive tool for measuring your body. And I started this company 12 years ago. I did a lot of research while I was a student at Harvard. I felt like as an athlete growing up, I didn't know what I was doing to my body while I was training. And so I got very interested in how you can continuously measure the human body. And that experience really led me down this rabbit hole of building a company. And so I started the company out of the Harvard Innovation Lab. Over the course of the last 12 years, we've gone from really working with the world's best athletes, starting with athletes like LeBron James and Michael Phelps and growing.

They were some of your early two. I mean, that's a great way to start a company.

That's right.

Two of them. First 100 users were those athletes. So we started really with the tip of the pyramid. And, and today we serve many of the best athletes in the world, but we also serve a pretty wide consumer base and I think a lot of folks like you who care about your health and care about your performance. And, and so we're, we're excited to be partners with, with Gary and doing this sleep challenge together. And I'm really happy to, to answer any questions you might have about the tech or the journey to building this business.

Yeah. So. All right, all you nerds, heart rate variability nerds, sleep recovery nerds, this is, this is your shot to interact with the CEO and founder of Whoop and ask any questions about the device or any questions about the data that you're getting. You can. I've been wearing a WHOOP band for four years. That's great. Starting my WHOOP journey literally changed my life. Slowly but surely, it showed me where I needed to go. These are amazing. So regular digital watches may cause an imbalance in the heart median. Does WHOOP or Apple watches cause the same problem of an imbalance in the heart median? That's Raphael, the dc. I wasn't aware of that.

Well, look, Craig, thank you, Missy, thank you. Thank you both for being on. On whoop. I think for the question. You know, there's a general question here around WHOOP versus other products. I think our focus is really on health, fitness and data. We collect more data than any other product in the market. Unlike a lot of other products, it doesn't have a screen on it. So it's really kind of non invasive. You can charge the product without ever taking it off your body. It's got about a five day battery life, which people really like. And WHOOP is great at all the things it does for all the things it doesn't do. We don't have a high resolution screen. We're not a watch. A lot of people wear another watch on their wrist. It's very comfortable, so it's mostly material. If I take it off here, you can see it. It's mostly a band and there's lots of different bands. So you can swap these in and out. Make it something that resonates with your aesthetic. This is just a simple hydro knit band. You know, I've got probably half a dozen here on my desk, but, you know, all sorts of different colors and clasps. This is probably one of my favorite, a good blue one. So you can really Kind of accessorize it however you like, make it something that, that fits for you. And, and so again, I would say focus on accuracy and data and having it be really non invasive.

And what about some differences between Aura, Fitbit and whoop? Lots of questions about that.

Yeah, you know, I would say that Aura and Fitbit are probably a little more on the entry level side of things. That's kind of, if you want to get some, some basic information. Aura is certainly a different form factor. So that's a ring, which some people may like. I would say that if you want really the highest performance product in the market. You know, people have said that that's, that's really whoop. And I think it's why we've been able to go from working with all these world class athletes to such a wide consumer base. And one of the other capabilities that people like about WHOOP that's unique is we've got a journal feature that allows you to keep track of a lot of different lifestyle decisions, behavior decisions in your life. So this could be a diet that you're on, a supplement that you're taking, a drug that you're taking.

I just started tracking my hydrogen water intake. So after, after our dinner and our podcast. So love that, by the way.

That thing's great. I've been hitting it ever since I met you, Gary, so thank you.

Yeah, everybody is. If you actually aren't doing the hydrogen water, you need to be. But, but yeah, I'm starting to track that. This was one of the fascinating things about WHOOP that I like to be. I mean, again, I'm a big data person. So, you know, I can look at the impact of all of these different biohacking modalities that I'm using. You know, is my PEMF mat. While I perceive it to be improving my sleep, and I certainly understand the health metrics of it, is it having a measurable impact on my biometrics? I can do the same thing with sauna. I can do the same thing with cold plunging. I can do the same thing with different forms of exercise, my Hypermax oxygen. You can look at things like alcohol, timing of going to bed, timing of getting up in the morning. You really get real measurable data. Yeah, I want to shift into sleep and I want to. But, but I definitely want to make sure that we talk about this journal aspect because one of the things that Will did for me when we were on the podcast, when we had our dinner here at the house was he. He actually, you know, looked and it Showed me his own personal dashboard. And what was really. Yeah, right there. What was interesting about this because it's.

Flipped, but you can see that, like, it's showing me all these different things in my life and what's positively or negatively affecting me based on what I'm tracking. So I can see, for example, the amount of sleep I get, going to bed and waking up consistently. Those have big boosts to my recovery. Meditation, big boosts. Things like using the steam room. More neutral. Shared bed. More neutral. Air travel is pretty negative.

That's shared bed, meaning your spouse. Is your spouse helping you sleep or hurting your sleep? Controversial one.

Not negative, which is good. Let's see. Air travel, negative. Late meal. That's a killer for me. Some people are better at this than I am, but I get a 5% reduction in my recovery when I have a late meal. And then alcohol is a killer. Minus 19%.

Yeah.

So biggest positive impact was what?

Sleep.

Regular bedtimes, regular wake times, meditation. Those were some of the things for me. So it's also worth saying, like, for all of you who are looking for sleep hacks, some things that can help you in your. Your daily life. Consider sleeping in a darker bedroom. A have high air quality. You want to have limited noise. Generally colder is better. A lot of people's bedrooms are too warm. If you're someone who travels a lot like, like I do, it might be good to have a sleep mask with you because a lot of hotels have all these little lights in them. So those are just a few things about the bedroom environment. And then in terms of preparing for bed, blue light blocking glasses can help a lot.

This is huge. I'm excited to get yours. Yeah, yeah.

That's probably been one of the biggest things for me. I wear these blue light blockers every night, about 30 minutes to an hour before I go to sleep. Really boosts your sleep quality, especially if you look at your phone before bed or you look at a television set. That kind of light is stimulating your brain. It's telling you to stay awake. So those are things that I'd encourage people.

So you guys are.

Are.

Have you. You've launched your red lens glasses, right?

We have. We sell like, blocking glasses, so.

Okay. But you did a lot of research on the lens, on the wavelengths that you're blocking. You didn't just put a red lens in there. This is another thing that I really appreciated that you guys did some real data research on the wavelengths that you were blocking, the nanometers that you were blocking, the tint that you were using. So you would have a real positive impact on, on, on the calmness, that parasympathetic shift, the rise in melatonin, the decrease in cortisol. You guys really looked at those metrics?

That's correct. We like, we like to do, you know, full suite of, of data collection on new products. And we saw real efficacy, efficacy with blue light blocking glasses. But we wanted to make sure we developed a blue light blocking glass that actually improves people's recoveries. And so we did a study showing that the glasses that we've created actually improve your recovery. So that's a benefit.

And what I really find fascinating is there's actually a section on the Whoop app where you can volunteer, you can opt in to be a part of different studies that they're doing, right, where they're, they're capturing the data, not identifying you as a user, but just using your user data, not, not, not you as a natural person, then putting it into a study. So they can actually take large pools of data and test different hypotheses on sleep or recovery or strain. So I want to go through the, the big things that I use on WHOOP and, and why they're important and how you can track them. So let's talk about sleep recovery and strain because I think we could really go down the rabbit hole of, you know, especially for the techies, about really what WHOOP could do. But let's just talk about those three metrics for people that are new to a wearable, why they would want to track them, what kind of data you get from sleep recovery and strain and what it could mean for you in your daily life to wake up in the morning and have access to that information.

Yeah, I think a big theme with, with, you know, tracking and data collection is a question of like, well, so what, like, what should I do with this information? And we tried to design a system, folks, that lives a step ahead of you. So you wake up in the morning and you get a recovery score and it's 0 to 100% red, yellow, green. How prepared is your body today to take on strain or stress? Then over the course of the day, we're actually measuring your strain and your stress strain in the form of activity, exercise, things that are elevating your heart rate. If you do weightlifting, you can track that on whoop, you're going to get a muscular load score for that. Stress will just be measured throughout the day by using heart rate variability, which we measured 24, 7, which is a unique capability to whoop and Then at the end of the day, whoop's actually looking at everything that's happened to your body over the course of the day. It's looking at who you are, and it's saying, okay, based on your day, this is how much sleep you now need to recover for tomorrow. You then go to bed. WHOOP automatically measures your sleep. You wake up in the morning, you got a new recovery score. You've got a whole analysis on your sleep, you know, deep analysis of the disturbances, how much time you spend in awake, awake sleep, you know, different stages of sleep. So awake, light REM and slow wave sleep. And so it's a very comprehensive analysis. And again, the idea is to try to live a step ahead of you. So you have a strategy for what should I do next?

Yeah, I really think that what gets measured is where you can really make an impact. What's shocking is what we think is impacting our sleep or recovery or our strain versus what's truly impacting it. So, you know, some people handle alcohol better than other people. Some people actually handle late meals better than other people. Some people handle consistent bedtimes better or worse than other people. And some people respond to things like sleep hygiene routines, like hot showers followed by cold showers, significantly better than others. And it's nice to actually know the fact pattern, not just what you feel is improving it. The thing that I really like about Whoop, not to just try to run a commercial for Whoop, is that you could try it for 30 days for free. And I think what you'll do is you'll find that you get addicted to the information because it gives you so much real data on yourself. I find that it's. I'm actually relatively new to whoop, and I find that it's never off, meaning when it tells me that I've had great recovery and great sleep and a low strain score, I legitimately feel the difference. I go down and have a great workout in the pool. I have better times on. On my treadmill. I just feel cleaner, clear, more awake, sharper. And then I try to focus on what did I do? Was one of the things Will pointed out to me that night we went and, you know, he and I were analyzing my different sleep patterns, and he was like, what did you do on these days where you had these big spikes? And. And there were some commonalities that I had done to get 100% sleep scores and 97% recoveries. And so I. I know now exactly how to hack my sleep. And, you know, getting that data is is invaluable. And, you know, so I really encourage you guys that are. That are not using a wearable. If you're new to wearables, you don't get obsessed with it. It doesn't, you know, people say, well, what if you have a great night's sleep and you wake up the next day and it says you didn't have a good night's sleep? Chances are that's not going to happen. It's actually never happened to me. But I want to also talk about will for, again, those guys that are new. Sleep relates to recovery. What is this strain metric? Because I think strain for a lot of people is a new concept, and I think it's sort of whooptastic because I don't know that other companies measure strain.

Yeah, this is a metric or a score, I should say, that's unique to whoop, and it's encompassing a few different capabilities. One is our ability to measure movement. Another is heart rate, and the third is actually weightlifting or muscular load. And what we do is we look at, over the course of the day, how elevated your heart rate is relative to your maximum heart rate. And the more time, for example, you spend at 90% of your max heart rate or 80% of your max heart rate, that's going to be putting more strain or more cardiovascular load on your body. And in addition to that, we've now built the capability for you to add your strength training. So if you lift weights, reps, sets, you can now put all of that into your whoop. And WHOOP will give you additional credit for it. And so we have a score from 0 to 21 that is quantifying how much strain you put on your body in a day. And it's a. It's a fairly addictive metric. It's something that for people who are trying to be more active or who are trying to, you know, kind of get back in shape, maybe even for people who are trying to dial it in a little bit, maybe they're doing too much to their body. This is a metric I think, that you can find, helps you achieve that balance. And I say balance because when your body's more recovered, ideally, that's when you take on more strain.

Yes.

You have this, you know, 90% recovery on Whoop. Okay. It's going to be recommended. You take it on, you have a high strained day, whereas if your body's more run down, that might be a day to do less. And so, you know, WHOOP is. Is really the first wearable to tell you not to work out on some days and to, to get more rest or take a nap.

Yeah, you know, I have a very personal story that some of you know from being one of my rule broadcast. But my son, who's a professional athlete, he's very, he's young, he's 23 years old. He does the extreme Spartans. You know, he actually enters as a, as a, as an elite, elite pro. He just did a 39 mile race with 25,000ft of elevation and it's three Spartan races back to back to back. But as he was preparing for this race, you know, he did, he had morning MMA training that he would do and then he started adding, started stacking on top of that. This training for, for this specific race. Whoop was constantly telling him for about two weeks to stop working out. He was telling him through his strain scores in his recovery that his body was in trouble. And the strain was actually telling him that he did not have enough of a recovery to, to exercise and should take it easy. He ignored it, and he ignored it diligently for about two weeks. He ended up with something called rhabdomyelitis. And I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. It's a potentially, potentially fatal condition. It's a muscle wasting condition. It, it can even shut down the kidneys. You know, thankfully we detected it. We, we, you know, we, we started treating them with, you know, IVs and rest and he had to take an entire month off, complete month off, which just drove him crazy. But Whoop was letting him know this two weeks ahead of time. It was consistently saying, you need to stop exercising, you need to stop exercising, you strain the body too much and you're not recovering. And, and I just thought it was fascinating. I promise you he's never going to not listen to his now, but you know, this kind of data is just invaluable. Not even if you're, you're extreme athlete, but just having data on what helps you recover, what gives you more energy, what, what creates less of a stress mode on your body. And then, and then some of the tracking metrics, which I'd love for Will to talk about too, about what sort of things can you track in your life that you, that might be having a positive or negative impact on your ability to recover. Like what, what are some of the categories that they can just track and journal in in Whoop.

Yeah, it's a great question. I'll even just pull it up while I'm talking to you. So in short, we have this pretty comprehensive Journal feature where you can go in and customize whatever you want to track. And there's a lot of different themes here. So circadian health, your overall health status, lifestyle, weight, medication, mental health, nutrition, reproductive health, sleep status, supplements. These are all different categories of things that you can measure. So, you know, maybe you want to better understand mental health. And so you want to start tracking days that you're happy or days that you're anxious or days that you're fulfilled. You can actually do that in the app and then the app will show you okay, on days you reported these things, this is how your body was recovered.

Wow.

You can track medications. You know, we've got a variety of meds in here that you can track. Blood pressure meds, cardiovascular meds, you know, all sorts of different prescription medications if you want to. Maybe you just started taking a new drug. You want to see how that's affecting your body. There's a lot around diet and nutrition. So if you're trying a new diet, paleo diet, low carb diet, you know, maybe you're doing intermittent fasting. These are things that you can now start tracking and you can say, okay, on days that I did intermittent fasting versus days I didn't, how did it affect my body? And WHOOP will show you that there's a lot here around supplements that you might be taking. You know, different vitamins, things like creatine and others. There's a lot here around recovery modalities. So you know, massage work, you know, hot cold therapy, you know, cold plunge, sauna, steam, cryotherapy, cupping, like these are all things that you can actually choose to track. And, and again, if you don't want to input anything, that's fine too. It's just these are sort of enhanced capabilities that that WHOOP provides.

I think this is just fascinating because as we start, one of the things I'm actually going to start to trying tracking guys, just so you know, and I'll, and I'll be very public and post this. I'm going to start trying to isolate some of the modalities that I have like cold plunging sauna and red light therapy. I've already isolated things like eight sleep as a positive impact on, on my sleep performance. But I'm, I'm about to fully mitigate the EMFs in, in my house too. And I'm really interested to see how mitigating EMFs has an impact on my parasympathetic nervous system. And if so, is it actually able to consistently improve sleep scores over time and then what happens to those scores when I'm. When I'm not in the house? You know, there's a physician on that I really have a deep level of respect for. He's called Dr. Rewire. And, and he said it's. It's brilliant for behavior management. I'm not sure what he means by behavior manager, but he just said that Whoop is really, really brilliant for behavior management management. Do you have any comment on. On that? Or maybe I'll have to ask him what he's. What he's tracking. I might, I might bring you up, Dr. Rewire. So what I'm going to do is I'm actually going to bring some people onto the stage. I know there's a lot of you that are waiting out there with your hands raised. I'm going to put you up on stage. You can direct a question to me or to Will. We've. We've only got Will for about another half hour, so 20 minutes. So as a shot at getting to talk to one of the best data experts in the world on wearable technology is something not many people get a chance to do. So please take your shot. Is this Magic Cook? Oh, Maggie Cook. I thought he said Magic Cook. Maggie Cook. Hi, Maggie.

Hi. So I'm a motivational speaker and I actually have an iWatch. And I like it because I can do timers and things like that for when I work out. But I'm really interested in the Whoops availability to kind of show you that, you know, you're potentially getting sick. So when I speak, I get paid a lot of money. And what I've been doing is I've been taking Ivermectin before I actually travel and throughout the entire event. And then I come back and I take it like three or four days after just to make sure that I don't get sick. And that's kind of helped. But I've been worried about the impact on the liver enzymes and all that stuff because I'm taking a lot of supplements with the 10x protocol. So can you talk a little bit more, kind of go deeper into how WHOOP helps with that? Because I might be wearing two, and I hope that's okay.

Yeah, you know, a lot of people wear Whoop and an Apple Watch or Whoop and another watch. I think one unique capability of WHOOP is that it is pretty non invasive, so people feel very comfortable wearing it 24 7. Whereas, you know, sometimes you might want to be wearing an Apple Watch, but sometimes you need to charge it or sometimes you don't want to have something buzzing on your wrist, maybe while you're sleeping or, you know, it's a little cumbersome. So Whoop tends to be the product people wear all the time and then there's different products that they might wear on another wrist. It's also worth noting, you can actually take the product apart here and if you can see my screen, I'm just taking the band off and now all of a sudden I've just got the little sensor. And this little sensor can actually live in different locations on your body.

That was another question. Ankles. Yeah.

So you can wear it on your bicep, around your waist. We actually sell boxers, shorts, women's underwear, bras to allow for this capability. And so that's something that people like to be able to put it in different locations in terms of like the alerting as it relates to health. We have a health monitor and so every day it'll tell you whether your metrics are within range. We've certainly seen that when people get sick, they get alerts on whoop, notifying them that something might be up. You know, during the COVID pandemic, I can't tell you how many people reached out because they discovered they had Covid from whoop.

That's a really interesting story. Could you just do a one minute anecdote on the, on the respiratory rate increase and how you were able to predict it three days ahead of time?

Yeah, so we, I thought that was fascinating. COVID19 tracking in the WHOOP app in March of 202020 is when we had it as a capability. And by the end of March of 2020, we had 2,000 people who reported testing positive for Covid. And then by call it May, we had partnered with both CQU and Cleveland Clinic to analyze all this data of the people who had tested positive for Covid. And we essentially found a smoking gun in the data, which was that everyone who had Covid had a very elevated respiratory rate. Respiratory rate is your breaths per minute. And for most people it's a very stable statistic, particularly during sleep, which is when we measure it the most. And yet we saw for people when they got Covid, they had this huge spike in their respiratory rate. And it wasn't subtle, it was 20 to 30% spike. And it often happened two to three days before someone felt symptoms. So it became a very powerful tool for people to feel that something was wrong with them or to see something was wrong with them before they could feel it. And I do think that's a, that's sort of a powerful principle to what we do at whoop, which is we give you this lens into what your body's trying to tell you that you might not be able to actually feel yet. And that's a. That's a powerful tool to be able to measure the body like that. And to your question, Maggie, we do have a health monitor in the app, and you may also be able to track some of the different supplements or drugs that you're taking and see how those are affecting your body.

Well, you've sold me on the whoop.

I'm all right. One more whoop. Sold. Awesome. Thank you, Maggie.

Wolf.

Hey, Wolf, you think you. Yeah.

You probably think I'm good.

Yep, we can hear you.

Sum total. I don't know if this is so much whoop.

Direct is more like, generally speaking, there's obviously lots of great ideas and products and everything out there. And I imagine for the everyday consumer, like me can feel like, okay, like, where would be. If we're going to pick, like, top three things to really focus on? Biggest return, air quote on investment from time to money, where would be the best places to start? Obviously, I heard about the regularity of, like, when you rise, when you sleep, that makes a whole lot of sense. But outside of that, what's going to be best bang for Buck in terms of where to focus? Whether it's behavioral, supplemental, or maybe even a wearable something in that capacity to optimize your sleep?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think the. The first thing I would say is it's very hard to know the. That you're optimizing your sleep without measuring it. So I do believe strongly you can only manage what you measure. Sleep is like this black box for a third or a quarter of your life. And it doesn't need to be like you can really measure it with high efficacy today. I think whoop's a great product for that. But really, in general, I would encourage you to track your sleep. Then from there, you'll have a baseline on how you're actually sleeping. And that gives you the opportunity to say, okay, when I introduce this new thing to my sleep, how does that affect my body? And there's a lot of things that are fairly personal. Supplements, dosage of supplements, things like magnesium melatonin for me, but they have some mixed results for others. There's certainly a lot of products in the market that claim to improve your sleep, but I think most of them are highly personal. And the reality is some may not work at all. And so the only way, again, to test that efficacy is to measure it. And I will say there is a placebo effect with some of this. If you're not measuring it where you'll take the thing and you'll tell yourself, oh, it's helping my sleep and maybe it helped your sleep, but if you don't measure it, you're going to have trouble knowing. Outside of measuring your sleep and sort of testing these different capabilities, there's the things that are just always better for your sleep. So again, going to bed and waking up at the same time, that will naturally improve your circadian rhythm. That will really always improve your sleep quality. Cold, dark, high air quality, less noisy. Those are all good things. Things for your sleep environment. Trying not to eat within three hours of going to bed, that's a big one. Can be a little personal, but for the most part that's a good, like window to try to avoid before bed. Caffeine, again, this is highly personal, but generalizing after 2:00pm caffeine tends to meaningfully affect your sleep. And hydration's a big one. More hydrated you are before you go to bed, the better.

That's what I'm starting to measure now with hydrogen water.

Yeah, so that's great. And alcohol tends to be quite bad for your sleep, so. So that's a good. You know, if you did. Did all that, you'd actually be in pretty good shape.

Sweet.

Thank you. And Gary, you're the man. Love you, brother.

Thank you. Love you too, brother. Susie O. I think is next on deck and we're going to try to go rapid fire through these because we've only got Will for about another 10 minutes. Hi, Susie. Oh, Susie wasn't. Oh, this is Lisa. Hi, Lisa. Still muted.

There we go.

Okay. There we go.

Okay, so this is a great time for you to be on because I've had a Fitbit for quite a long time and I, I was at the point where I was trying to decide between the whoop and the oura ring and the thing with my Fitbit and I've tried to find information on it on hrv. It's always really, really low. And Gary will probably laugh when I say this, but having the compt gene I'm already worrying about, well, maybe I shouldn't, maybe I shouldn't get anything new because maybe there's something wrong with my heart rate variability and I don't to know because mine's usually like a 15 to 17 on the Fitbit. And so I didn't know if that's just a different range that they use and, and that I can't find data on it. But that, that's my, my only thing is switching over with that overwhelming amount of data. Can that send some of us maybe down a rabbit hole with, you know, how do I guess I don't understand how it reads.

My, my personal opinion is no, because you can expand into the data as you choose to expand into the data. A lot of this is user input related. So if you don't give it data, it doesn't give you back data. The baselines are always good to measure. I mean your heart rate variability, your sleep, your perform, your recovery, your strain. The reason why I would say that is that if your heart rate variability is low, one of the, the interesting things is, you know, to know well what, what actually helps improve it. Like you know, when, when I, when I look at my whoop scores myself, you know, I can see for example, I had you know, 96%. Um, you know, was, I see score last night when I actually look at my recovery, it's 97%. But what you might not be able to read there is that I had a 33% increase in heart rate variability. So every time that I have an improvement in heart rate variability, I have a demonstrative impact on recovery. So that is a fact for me. So now I look at well, what things improve my heart rate variability. And, and when I, when I do that, I find that heart rate variability is something that I can actually start to, to, to manage. I also think, and I don't want Will to comment on this before he gets off the line, you know, I, I found heart rate variability to be very personal. I mean if your heart rate variability average is low doesn't necessarily mean that something really, really bad is about to happen. It would be worse if your heart rate variability baseline or at a certain number and then you consistently started falling into lower and lower and lower heart rate variabilities based on your own baseline. But Will, what would, what would your comment be on that?

Yeah, I think, I think that was well said, Gary. You know, I think heart rate variability is highly personal. I do think that in general being able to maintain it or increase it with time is a, is a pretty good sign. I think that looking at it as a specific variable that you can influence, whether it's through fitness, whether through its proper recovery, whether improving sleep, whether changing your diet, you know, looking at all these sort of different lifestyle decisions and looking at HRV and whether those things are improving your hrv, I think that's, that's a powerful use case, and we're kind of in this golden age of technology. To be able to do that 10 years ago, you have to go buy a $20,000 electrocardiogram. And who knows what kind of data scientists you'd need to hire and the kind of computer tech you'd need to just run some simple analyses that you can do now. And I would say, you know, Lisa, sometimes different products have different readings. So if you have a little bit of skepticism around the data that you've been getting, I'd encourage you to try whoop for 30 days. And again, it's a free trial, so you don't have much to lose. And at a minimum, you're going to see what WHOOP says your HRV is. And so that at least gives you a chance to, you know, validate what. What your other product has been saying. And I will say that HRV is. Is something that we measure very accurately in the market.

Very accurately. Yeah.

Okay.

Awesome, Lisa.

All right.

Thank you so much.

One more in there. I think it's Susie.

Hey, can you hear me?

I can hear you just fine now. I can't. You just muted yourself right after you asked if we could hear you.

Okay, how about now?

Now I can hear you. Don't touch anything.

Fabulous. Sorry about that. Well, I'm so excited to try the whoop. I'm going to take advantage of the trials, so thank you guys for making that available. I do have an aura ring, so I'm kind of excited to see how, you know, those will correlate with one another. Actually, my question was about things that could boost my HRV because it's always in the 20s, like, the low 20s. But I know Lisa had just commented on that, so I do kind of have a backup question as well, is my doctor said that I show all the symptoms of high cortisol, and she wanted me to take, like, a steroid pill to measure, I guess, if I was producing cortisol or whatever through the night. Forgive me, I don't really know exactly how it worked, and I never did the test just because I'm terrified of taking anything that could, you know, any steroid, because I've had so many issues with, like, Candida, and I was on 90 days of fluconazole at one point, so it was crazy. But I wanted to see what are some things that I could do to help boost my HRV scores or kind of to help lower cortisol.

Okay, why don't you take the HRV and what your big Data says, yeah.

On hrv, I think it's a lot of it is, you know, a reflection on your, your overall fitness level improving over time. Your overall ability to recover and rest in the near term. Stress can play a big role on negatively impacting your hrv. So actually, throughout the day, whoop will quantify how many minutes you spend in a high stress zone, even outside of activities, just like ice.

So do you think being overweight could just kind of generally make your HRV lower? Because I, I am, I've got about, I'd say maybe £60 to lose to be in like a good healthy range for myself.

Well, I, I certainly, I certainly think that measuring that over time would be valuable, you know, because weight loss can have a, a pretty important effect on your body's sort of overall, you know, performance. And heart rate variability is really a key indicator into that sort of performance lens. And, and it would be interesting to see like where you start and then where you end up as, as you lose weight. I think that actually would be kind of exciting and inspiring every day, you know, to see, okay, if you lose a few pounds, how did that change your baseline?

Yeah, this is what I mean about data. I mean, I mean, we're in the technology and information era and now we can actually, we have data in real time. I mean, I think that this is even more profound than most clinical studies, right? When we take a small group of people and you put them through a clinical trial and you do all these analytics and then year later it gets published and it comes out in some major journal and by that time, you know, based on what's happening with artificial intelligence and big data, you know, the, the market's just moved and, and you know, you have something that you can do in real time. I personally never take this off. I heard some questions about that too. You actually snap the battery pack right over it and it charges. I wear it in the cold plunge. I wear it in the steam room, I wear it in the sauna. I wear it in the shower. I, I'm actually going to swim when we get off of this phone call. I'm going to actually wear it when I'm swimming laps in the pool. And the interesting thing is it gives me a lot of really good data about that. So look, Will is about to jump off, guys. So I, I just want to really thank Will and I'm, I'm very excited to be working with Whoop and having Whoop a part of the sleep challenge. If you're even thinking about trying whoop you might as well try it for 30 days. You know, there's, there's, there's no risk to you. I think you're going to start to become a data nerd like I am, and you'll start to figure out what you're comfortable measuring. You can just look at the basics, sleep recovery, strain and stop there. Or you can go down the nerd rabbit hole and start looking at all the different aspects of your life and tracking your medications and everything else. But guys, if we could just give Will a silent golf clap round of applause. You can't hear it, but lots of people are clapping for you, brother. I, I deeply appreciate you giving us your time and, and thank you for, for backing us on this sleep challenge. It was a, it's been a pleasure getting to know you and your wife. So we're now going to move over to the VIP Zoom.

Thank you, everyone.

Yeah, you, you've got it, Will. Thank you so much, brother. Guys, it's just, it's not very often that we get to get the founder and the CEO of a $3.6 billion company, you know, to come in and just interface with, with you directly and take your questions. So I really feel blessed that he took the time out of his day. I mean, this is how interested these kinds of people are like Matteo and Will even myself in really kind of often that we get to get the founder and the CEO of a $3.6 billion company, you know, to come in and just interface with, with you directly and take your questions. So. So I really feel blessed that he took the time out of his day. I mean, this is how interested. Impacting humanity. I promise you, you know, the 50 whoop sales that he gets out of the sleep challenge are not moving the needle of his company. He's truly interested in impacting, you know, the health and longevity of humanity. So for those of you guys that are not yet rule breakers, this is really a time to become one again. Just like, whoop, it's free for your first month. I'm, you know, I really try to pour myself in, into these, these sessions and create a lot of value add and be as interpersonal as possible and give you a lot of behind the scenes of what's going on in my life and answer every question that you have about bio optimization, longevity, aging, what have you. So those of you that are on the, on the, the YouTube that are not moving over to the, to the VIP chat with us, thank you for your trust and confidence in me and thank you for being a part of the Sleep Challenge. I hope that you encourage other people to become a part of the Sleep Challenge. You don't need me. You can, you can download the guide and just let that guide get out there and walk people through it for free. Try the Whoop for 30 days. So you can actually just get some metrics. Even if you have send it back at the end of 30 days and you actually collect some really good data on what's actually helping you sleep. This is the greatest biohacker, the baseline for performance, for longevity, for aging, and, and, and I think the greatest biohack for humanity. So thank you guys for giving me your time. VIPs, we're going to slide over and get interpersonal now.