#11 | No Apologies: Confronting Harmful Faith-Language Toward LGBTQ Individuals (Part 1)

Welcome to Just Breathe, the podcast focused on transforming the LGBTQ+ conversation and supporting you on your journey with your LGBTQ loved one. You are not alone.

Welcome to Just Breathe, parenting your LGBTQ teen. My name is Heather Hester, and I am excited to be with you to transform the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. Wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. I am so excited to bring you today's interview. Susan Cottrell is the founder of freedhearts.org. The mother of 5, and really just an extraordinary human being. I first learned about Susan a few weeks after Connor came out. I was completely overwhelmed and had a million questions about everything from understanding what Connor was going through to how we could be the best support to him and for him, to how to answer questions from his siblings and to support them. To my faith. They all had urgency to them, but I especially needed to understand my inner conflict of what I had been taught my whole life, that being gay is a sin, to what I had always felt to the depths of my soul, which was the complete opposite. Susan's book changed my life. Actually, it saved my faith. It gave me the space I needed to detox old messaging and reconnect to God in a way that I had never had before. Susan's message crosses all faiths. All of us have received programming through our faith structures that have communicated negative messaging about homosexuality and all LGBTQ people, and she debunks it all. So no matter what your faith is, please listen in with an open mind and an open heart and be ready to have multiple "oh my gosh" moments. And without further ado, I bring you Susan Cottrell. So Susan, your story is very, very powerful. Would you mind sharing your background? And how you came to be doing the extraordinary work that you and Rob are doing now.

So Rob and I did not grow up in church at all. And we came to church, we came to Jesus because of a powerful draw in the relationship that we were introduced to, to God and the people who introduced us. And we were in that church for 20 years. And we grew in there and we had community and we learned the rules and we did everything like you're supposed to do. And then our daughter came out, uh, she said she was bisexual at the time, that's what she called it, uh, now she identifies as queer. And it was so surprising to us, the church's response. When I talked to friends about it in church, these close friends I had Their answer was all the same. It was, it's a sin and you can't accept it. And that was a shock to me because they don't say that about other people, even if they think it's a sin, which I do not. I've studied enough now. So I was really amazed that they would kind of require me to not embrace my daughter 100%. That just made no sense to me. And we left the church and we were fine. But from the stories my daughter told, I knew that there were a lot of people out there being very badly hurt. Her friend Allison, whose mother threw her down the stairs and threw dishes at her when she came out. And I thought, in the name of God, is that what you're doing? It made no sense. So, um, this, this just kind of was something I had to do. I became an advocate. I started, uh, I wrote a blog and people started coming out of the woodwork. The haters came, but really, but the people I was concerned about was people saying, I've come out to my mother now and now she won't stop crying, or my son told me he's gay, what do I do? And it, it was just a privilege to just walk these people in the love of God and in the love of humanity to a place of peace. So it's just grown and grown and grown since there.

That is so amazing. I mean, it really is. It's something I'm sure far beyond you ever— what you ever thought it would be.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, because, you know, like, like you or like me, I was also very surprised when my son came out. And, you know, like you, it was not even a question. It was, okay, how are we going to do this? Let's learn, let's figure this out. And I love so many different things that you just said are, are just, I mean, so spot on. And I think that's why people, you know, really connect with you because it is things that everybody is thinking. You know, this doesn't make sense. This— it has my whole life. Now, I grew up Methodist, but really Church of God. And so my teaching was Church of God, but I grew up in the Methodist Church. And actually, several years before Connor came out, we left the church because of all the rules. And we just couldn't take it anymore. And I was so frustrated, and I couldn't put my finger on it exactly, but it just—

yes, that's it, right? You— it's like being gaslighted. Yeah, where you're just slowly acclimated to this rules base, this rules attention, right? Like God is sitting there with a big legal pad making note of all your transgressions. Oh my God, does, does God not have better things to do than that, like loving humanity? Yes, God does have better things to do than that.

Absolutely, absolutely. And that's exactly what I felt. I mean, I felt like I'd like become to like this tight space of if I step a toe out in any direction, I'm going to hell for sure.

Yeah.

And, and I thought, this is not how I want my kids They cannot grow up thinking this. Yes, there's a better way to figure this out. So, you know, in one more way, Connor coming out has been such a blessing and so beautiful and, you know, very traumatic and very scary in a lot of ways too.

He's—

he has struggled, um, but it has been such an incredible learning experience and growth experience for our faith. And, um, so this kind of actually moves me into my next question for you, which I just love this. Um, in your TEDx talk, um, you say parents are being asked to choose between a demanding God and their own child, which is so spot on. And none of this has to do with what we learned from Jesus and the power of God and the power of love. What we knew was the God of fear right? The God of hell and damnation, the God of black and white, right? And so what advice do you have for parents who are still in this place of really struggling and really struggling with what the church is saying to them as opposed to what God is speaking to their hearts?

Okay, a couple things. First of all, I want you to know that we have a mom's group and a dad's group a secret email group. If you— I mean, I'm sorry, online Facebook group. If you will email me, I will invite you into that group, and you can talk to a lot of other people who are in your same situation. Because we had to— these other parents in our group, we had to deconstruct what we were taught from churches. And you think about, um, you know, don't step a toe out of line. That does not really— if you look at God as love, that doesn't sound like God. But it does sound like leaders who like to make sure everybody is toeing the line and everybody is keeping their, their kingdom really going. Do you know what I mean? It's the the pastors and the church's kingdom on earth, not God's kingdom, doing all this demanding. God is not doing that demanding. And I've heard parents say, or people say, well, God's ways are not— you're sure you wouldn't send your child, you wouldn't punish your child forever, you wouldn't whatever, but God's ways are not our ways. Exactly right. But if our ways turn out to be kinder and more compassionate than God's ways, then I don't think it's God's ways we're talking about. I don't think it's God's ways we're talking about, because God, God is love. And so I'm as loving as I can be as a human being, but if God is, is less loving than me because I'll accept these people and God won't, I don't think that's God we're talking about. So I, I actually advise parents in this paradigm, I say just set aside all your beliefs for a moment. You can get them later if you want, but just set them aside. Go sit on the sofa mentally and say, God, show me, show me what you want me to view to do about my child? How should I view my child? What do you want to tell me? And the parents that have actually done that have said things like, God just said, just love them. I've got them. Of course I've got them. You just love them. Don't try to change them. I made them the way I made them. And they're, they're freed in that conversation. But we're so afraid that we're going to mishear God, that God will say love and embrace them, and we've misheard that.

It's like That's so true though.

So true. It's so true. It's so deeply conditioned in us to believe that, right? It's really how the church holds together as an institution. And I'm not, I'm not downing anybody in particular. This is an inherited paradigm of the institution of the church. But it's not God. No, it's not God.

And I feel like the church and God are becoming more and more separate.

Well, we're in a reformation, Heather. I mean, we're— the church is being dismantled as it's been all these years. And 500 years ago, that happened with the church when it was so full of corruption. And then these upstarts said, we're not doing this anymore. And that began the Protestant, uh, tradition. The protesters said, we're not putting up with this anymore. And it, it took away a lot of the power of the church. It still had plenty, but it wasn't the only game in town anymore. And it took, you know, hundreds of years to, to shift that. But we're in that kind of reformation right now because the church has too much power in our country right now. It, it, it— and Christians might say, well, we're being— our power is being taken away. But I know, but it's not. But it's God doing it because there's too much power when you can terrify children into lying awake at night wondering if they're going to burn or or fearing, they will burn in hell for all eternity. It's like, that is too much power.

Absolutely. I could not say that. I mean, oh my goodness, yes, it is, it is. And that's not what we want, and that's not the— yeah, that is not the message.

If you, if you are wrestling with the question of hell or trying to understand hell Email me and I will send you a free PDF of a book that will help you understand hell.

You know, that's one of those things that's, um, so shrouded in mystery and, and so completely— you think about it, it's so terrifying. And it's terrifying for adults, so you can only imagine what this is doing to our babies, right?

Yeah.

And, and, you know, our kids who are coming out who are thinking, well, I'm done, right?

Yeah.

And then that's not true. And so, you know, it becomes this shifting of, you know, educating ourselves, right? Shifting our mindset and doing the best we can to support and spread a new message.

Yes, right. And I, I realize that I've kind of shared a lot of things that may make people's heads spin. And when I started—

that's okay.

When I started out, this made my head spin. I was like, it can't be some— that simple. It can't just be about loving God and loving others and everything else will fit under that. It can't be. And yet that Jesus said it was. And so What does that mean? And to allow God to deconstruct this. And God did this deconstructing, and I complied by listening and, and opening my hands and saying, okay, take out of here whatever you want. And it shifted, and things make so much sense to me now that didn't. And the thing parents are afraid of is, if I'm wrong about this, what else am I wrong about? Because there's this intuitive sense that the underpinnings of their whole faith structure are now unstable. And they are unstable, but God is stable. So if our faith is really in God and not in our religious belief structure, then we can trust God to hold us and to move us onto solid ground. Of understanding. And, and that structure that is collapsing anyway, we, we won't be crushed by, right? We'll instead be in a safe place that God has removed us from that falling structure. But what I mean, and what I mean by that is there, that kids are being thrown out of their homes.

I know.

Kids are being terrified, beaten. That's, that's not God. No. And even love, kind of out of the Old Testament, you say, well, look at what God did in the Old Testament. That's a whole nother program to talk about that. But the most learned— we have to remember, the most learned religious leaders of Jesus' day brought that understanding of that God, that Old Testament rules-enforcing God to Jesus, and he shook his head and said, 'You don't understand God at all.' So today, if our faith is saying God is telling you you can't be gay, I know you can't change it, you can't help it, and what I'm really asking you is to be celibate or to marry somebody you're not attracted to and stay forever 'Okay, I know that sounds harsh, but God is requiring it.' No, God is not requiring it. This faith structure is requiring it, but not God.

That was perfect. That was— I mean, that, that break— that breaks it down. And that— because I think so many people are trying to wrap their heads around this, right? Because they are clearly— they're questioning because God is speaking to them. God is trying to make that connection, but it is so hard to let go of, you know, all I kept thinking while you were talking is we have God, we have our faith, and then there's everything that's human-created, right? That's what all the structure is, and letting go of that.

It's hard to separate them. It's so deeply conditioned. You know, Pavlov's dog that salivated at the sound of a bell, he was conditioned. Right, right. You know, I'm sure he salivated at the sound of a bell to the end of his life, that dog, because it was a conditioned response. And to get that conditioning out, it takes time and it takes willingness and it takes courage. Yes. And authentically looking at what the conditioning has been. And if you claw at the walls while you're sliding down onto, onto solid ground, you're going to destroy yourself, you know, right? And the people in your care.

That's absolutely right. That is—

my heart goes out to the, to parents. It does. I know it's hard. Oh, but it's the only— you know, they'll say, well, I would go to Africa and be a missionary if I were required to. Okay, great. But would you love your child unconditionally? Would you re-examine your belief structure and let God unpack it for you? Would you do that?

Well, no, because that's a lot harder.

That's a lot harder.

That's a lot harder. And it's a lot more uncomfortable. And, and we are used to being told, right, how, how we should think and believe and not relying on that personal relationship.

Yeah, and just the Holy Spirit who will lead us in all truth. Jesus said the Holy Spirit will lead you in all truth, not the Bible. Jesus said not your leaders.

I know that, that is, that is exactly right.

It will lead you. So listen to the Holy Spirit. Don't let a leader tell you you are not hearing the Holy Spirit correctly, because the Holy Spirit knows how to communicate and knows how to say what you need to hear so that you will hear it. That's what the Holy Spirit does.

Just— I have chills right now. Um, I love this so much. Um, so I, I love this because it actually, you know, one of the first things when I think I had emailed this to you, or when we we're talking via email at one point, that, you know, when Connor first came out, I was terrified. And I was given your book, and because that was my— I need to know, I need to understand how this works, because I just knew in my gut that he could not be damned. But that was my intellectual programming, right? So I was handed your book and I flipped right away. I'm like, I went through that, I'm like, ooh, Klabber versus— what are those. This sounds cool. What does this mean? And scary and terrifying. But oh my goodness. And, and I've talked about this before and, and things I've written and spoken about, but, and I know it's so, so much, but could you just quickly go through those just to give people enough of a taste that they're going to be like, oh, I've got to learn this.

And as you said, this is all in my book, Mom, I'm Gay. It is so powerful for parents. I really encourage them to get the book. And also I have a video course online that's so intimate, it's so appealing and encouraging to go through. It answers all the questions. I really encourage parents to get that video course.

Absolutely.

It's all on my website, freedhearts.org. So, but let's just go briefly over the the passages. So the first one's Genesis 1:27, where it says, 'So God created humankind in God's image. In the image of God, God created them male and female.' Okay, we're like, 'So it's male and female, period.' Okay, well, in the next verse— in the next verses, it says God created day and night, but nobody said 'Oh my gosh, it's dusk. It's an abomination. It's not day or night, it's dusk.' No, it's just transitioning from day to night. Those are not binary comprehensive categories. They're just representative. And male and female, those are just representative. What we know from— we know of people, there are people who are sort of in between. They're, you know, intersex people that are neither male nor female or both. And so we already know there's our dusk right there to say it's not a binary. And, you know, transgender shows us that that's just another step in this, um, transitional space. And it's very frightening for people because we're so, so embedded in the male-female binary, but it's not true. I mean, take 20 women and you'll have a range of femininity to masculinity. Mm-hmm. And take 20 men and you'll have the same range. So it's not binary. All right. That was one.

One. One down.

Um, And Genesis 19. Okay, so Sodom and Gomorrah. So this is a good litmus test. Yes, because these men come in and threaten to— they want the visitors out so they can rape them. These are not— it's all the men in the town. All the men in any town aren't gay. They're not there to have sex because they're gay. They're there because in that time That's how you subdue your enemy, is you rape him and you let him know you're in charge. And, you know, they cut off the back of their coats where they're— or their whatever they're wearing, so their butts are exposed. That was one of the things they did to humiliate them. That's what the story is about, and anybody can, can see that. And, um, Jude is the other one that's sort of Jude 7, it also refers to Sodom and Gomorrah. But Ezekiel 36, I think it's in there, says, uh, this is the sin of your sister Sodom, that you were overstuffed, overstuffed and overfed and lazy, and you didn't welcome the stranger. Okay, well, that hits a lot more people in our country today than people who gang rape, you know, the male visitors of the town. But so you see why it'd be easier just to say, oh, well, it's gay men this, this is aimed at, instead of no, it's us who have plenty and don't share, right?

Which is absolutely fascinating to me. This one really, like, as I was reading this and I'm thinking, okay, we actually have a word in our— in English, sodomy is a word which means this, and it doesn't even mean that. It doesn't mean that. And, and it's so simple to read this in context.

Yes.

And see that it doesn't mean this. So it is extraordinary frustrating to me that people take this.

Yeah.

And it's so badly mistranslated.

Yes. And I don't think that is accidental. I mean, when I talked about the structure of the institution of the church, which is separate from God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, or, or, or the Quran or the, you know, the Jewish Bible, the structure is not the same as God. And the structure has in its vested interest to make this verse be about gay people. Gay men instead of to be about all of us who need to share with those less fortunate than we are. And so, yeah, exactly.

Extraordinary.

Yeah. Okay, and then we have Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Uh, you shall not lie with a male as with a woman is an abomination. Okay, there's so much in this.

Yes, this one's hard.

It's— well, it's just, it's layered. But if a man lies with a man as with a woman, uh, what they're saying is that to be the one who receives the male, to be the recipient of the sex act from a male, is to be the one of lower status and lower power. And so it's not saying You're the one— that the one who's committing this, who's, who's penetrating, excuse me, is the one at fault, but the one who receives it, because he has lowered himself from the supreme status of male to the status of a woman, which is like a child.

Mm-hmm.

That's, that's the big punch there. So we have to put that in cultural perspective. The other thing is, in that passage in Leviticus— and this is the punch, and I heard this from a Jewish rabbi, and I think she stands a better chance of understanding this than we Christians who slice and dice it in other ways— but she said, look, just look at the passage where it's telling the man who he can't sleep with. You can't sleep with the mother-in-law, the sister-in-law, the children, the slave boys, all these people they can't sleep with because they are the one in power. They're the power in the household and everybody is under their care. If they don't, you know, live there, they're thrown out on the street. And so the, the law here in Leviticus is to tell these men, don't abuse your power. Don't sleep with people who can't say no to you. And when you're in power over them, they can't say no to you. And it's, it's the same as rape or sex abuse. Don't do that. And so, okay, well, that puts a whole different spin on it, doesn't it?

Oh my goodness, yes.

And it's the whole different spin. Don't abuse your power is what that's saying. Not two men of equal status, as we know today, who fall in love, you know, and have sex. Are an abomination. That's not true. Now it's men. And this is, this is another passage that exactly hits so many more people if we see it rightly. Because I know, I can't tell you how many women and children I know, and men, who've been molested by their priest or their pastor or their other, you know, clergy. And that, that is more fitting to this verse.

Absolutely.

Uh, than two just guys. And so let's just keep our heads here. But if you begin to look at who, who is interpreting the rules and who are they trying to protect, it makes a very different statement. And these pastors— I'm sorry, these, um, you know, interpreters of the Bible over time were protecting the institution. Now let me, let me interject this because it was probably the most profound thing I learned in seminary.

If you—

the— that the Bible was written, all our Bibles were written by an oppressed group of people in bondage We don't know what that means, but think concentration camp. These people were in bondage and, and tortured by their oppressors, and they were writing the, the scripture as a cry of lament of their torture and their bondage. And so the only right way to read the Bible Jewish Bible, Christian Bible, is, um, in the Quran, is from the underbelly of the oppressed, from the oppressed's point of view. But our interpreters over the centuries have interpreted it from the oppressors, from the power structure's point of view. And so it's going to get a wrong read Period. Period. It's like a lot of men telling women all about their lives and how they should feel and what they should think. They're going to get it wrong. Or white people telling black people, or, you know, all of that. It's the one with power telling the one without power how they should be. You're go— there's no way to get a correct interpretation if that's your point of view.

Wow. Yeah, that is—

I mean, when I realized that, I was like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?

Yeah, I am. I want everybody to sit with that for a little bit because that is intense. Yeah, I mean, yeah, but it also explains so much, so much, doesn't it?

Yes.

And You know, I always think that, you know, as I, as I read different things, it's, it's so important to, to understand what was going on in that period of time, right? Understand the background of the writer. Well, here we go. Here's the background of the writers.

Yeah.

And it's almost like pleas for help.

Yes, it is pleas for help. And it's saying, you know, to say my God will destroy you They're saying, I know you're flaying our parents alive in front of our faces, and we will never get out of this alive, because they were in captivity, uh, the Jews, for, um, 300 years. Uh, so we'll never get out of this alive, but our God will prevail. That's what they were saying. And, and you see it in the, in the slave songs of the slaves in our country. That we enslaved people. And they had those same kind of songs, you know, Swing Low Sweet Chariot, coming for to carry me home. There is hope beyond this horror that you're putting me through. That's what it's saying. And, and to miss that is to miss the entirety of the good news of the gospel, that all of us are included. All of us. You know, the good news of all our scripture, our faith communities, which is God loves every one of us. And you see it in Jesus when, you know, everything he said was to defend the marginalized. Everything he said. And the only time he got mad was at the oppressors of the marginalized, at the church structure the religious structure that was oppressing those on the margins and saying, you're good, you're not good enough, God, you're not good enough, you need to change things for God to be okay with you. That is the height of abuse of that power. And so that's what he got mad about. I had somebody say, you know, God does— Jesus did too get mad about sin. What sin? He got mad at the oppression of the powerless, of the marginalized, of those without money or resources or legal recourse or any of that, or status or power.

Right.

And we— that's what we should be mad about too. Not because our, our son has a boyfriend. That's not what we should be mad about.

Right?

Right.

Oh my goodness. Well, I think the other thing that is really important that uh, tends to be conveniently forgotten is that the difference between law and grace. The Old Testament is the law.

Yes.

And with Jesus became grace.

Yes.

And I find it so fascinating that when people want to condemn and all of a sudden they're pulling up rules from the law, right? Right. But that, you know, but we're under grace.

Yes, we are under grace. So that, that's a fact all by itself. That is absolutely true. And they pull up the law when it's convenient. They're not, they're not avoiding bacon. They still have bacon cheeseburger, right? But they're— but they pull this law up because it offends their sensibilities and because it's been conditioned into them that this is a problem. The bacon cheeseburger we've all acclimated to. The divorcees in our church we've all acclimated to. Interracial marriage, most of us have acclimated to, even though that was a big thing at the time. We all agree that slavery is, is unkind and inhumane, even though the Bible was used to defend it when we had slavery in this country.

So And can you share that fact too with everybody? Because I think that is a fascinating fact, um, that you have in your book of how many verses in the Bible— oh yeah, support or talk about—

oh yeah, I don't know the number, but a lot of verses appear to support slavery. A lot. Is that what you're talking about?

Yes, yes.

Yeah, there are a lot of verses that appear to support, you know, slaves obey your masters. Without grumbling. You know, masters, be kind to your slaves, don't free them. That doesn't say that. It just says, be kind to your slaves.

Be nice.

Yeah, but, but it appears to support slavery. We have to remember that these were written in a time and a place, and they had, they had the markings of the writers and the culture in which they were written, you know. So yeah, But, but, but few people really today can get away with saying— although it seems to be, I don't know, people doing this— but few people can get away with saying, yeah, the Bible tells us we should have slaves. That's just not something culturally we accept anymore, thank God, right? Because it's wrong. It's just wrong. But, um, yeah, but this one is still in our conditioning. And we have to be— and I, and I, as you started to say that, I thought you're going to say there are like 300 verses that tell us to give to the poor. Where is that happening? Okay, at Christmas we'll make it, we'll make a little gift box for, you know, we'll do angel tree. Okay, well, but how about the other 364 days of the year with a lot of poor in our country? Let alone the rest of the world. And there's this sense of no obligation to share this wealth that we have. But, but the Bible says, you know, 300-some-plus times that we should share that and, and, and, and change systems so we're not creating so much poor and wild wealth? How— why do we have billionaire— billionaires? That's like eternity. It's like a concept we can't even imagine, right? Individuals that are billionaires, and there are people that can't afford housing. We finally now have in some of our cities affordable housing because so many— and there's a waitlist, and, and you have to be approved for it because so many people can't afford to even rent an apartment. A small apartment is thousands of dollars a month, and they don't have it. So I— you know what I mean? And the Bible tells us to fix that, but instead we're worried about, you know, who, who's somebody sleeping with.

Not exactly—

not a molesting thing, but, you know, no, peer thing.

Correct.

Gosh, so we've got some work to do, don't we, Heather Hester?

Yes, we do. Yes, we do.

You want me to move into these last 3 verses?

Yes, sure, go right ahead.

Okay. Um, these— those were the Old Testament, these are the New Testament. The Romans 1, uh, really throws people for a loop. It's something about, you know, so God abandoned them to do whatever was shame— shameful things their hearts desired, and they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. They traded the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served— and it goes on— worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator who is worthy of eternal praise. And so God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Okay, well, in there, if it has the word homosexual, pervert, in your, um, in your version, that is a translation. The word— let me just be very, very clear— the word homosexual and homosexuality wasn't invented until the 1800s, and it was added to the Bible in 1946 while our parents were alive. That the word homosexual, homosexual and homosexuality was put into the Bible. Okay, so this is not thousands of years old, straight from the hands of, you know, Jesus or Moses or Muhammad. This is, this is a, an addition to any version of the Bible that you have. So, um, let's just be clear about that. Romans 1 has this whole vice list of things that were happening that is referring to temple idol worship. And, uh, idolatry, and men having sex with their slave boys. Remember Leviticus, don't have sex with people in your household that aren't your wife. So, but that was common to have sex with your slave boys. They thought they were imparting their masculinity into the boys they were having sex with. So these vice lists are all the things that people would agree are wrong and abhorrent But then he goes to Romans 2 where he says, "And if you judge these people, you are just as guilty. You are just as guilty." That's the point of Romans 1. That rhetorical device of this vice list to whip his crowd into a frenzy is to bring them to Romans 2, which is you are judging them. You're as bad as anybody else. Doing anything because you're judging them, and you are not the judge. That's the point. If we were being authentic, that those pastors on Sunday morning would walk away from, or our religious teachers would say, don't be judging each other. But do you see how that doesn't serve the, the structure, the religious structure, as well as just focusing on the viceless, which was the opposite of the point?

Correct. Yeah, so, well, they need the fear to keep everybody in line.

Yeah, that's right, to keep it all going it takes fear. And again, I don't blame any one person, it's a, it's a structure. But I do hold people accountable that, that will, that monopolize on the structure. Nobody invented the structure that's alive today. Pretty much. But, uh, but they're benefiting from it and they're scaring people with it. And so they're, they're accountable. Yep. And then we have, uh, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:10-11. Well, remember, so it says sexually immoral, and it also says those who practice, practice homosexuality. Remember, as soon as we read that word and then we have to say That was an addition. It should have a big red flashing light that says that was an addition. It was not what was there originally. And no, it didn't replace a word that meant the same thing. There are two words, malakoi and senekoitai, and they mean something like effeminate, having the characteristics of a woman. Because remember, if a woman has the status of a child and was considered in the day to be a deformed male So women were deformed men. And so naturally, if you have any kind of effeminate— feminine, they could mean you like to play a musical instrument, or you like to, you know, you didn't want to go out in the fields, you wanted to do tapestries at home, or whatever. That was called— that was considered effeminate. And so you had a lesser status That's what the whole culture around that was. It did not mean— and then the, the other of those two words means man bed, and we don't quite know what that means, but it's probably a man in bed with somebody other than his wife. That's probably what it means, including male prostitutes, which it lists. Okay, have I overloaded you, or are we okay?

No, no, no, that's good. That's it.

So as soon as you see the word homosexuality, you have to say That was a translation, right? Error. Translation error does not compute. And, and go to what it really does mean. But it's talking about other things. Um, oh, one more piece, one more piece. Back in Leviticus where it says man shall not lie with a man, well, the original was— it was understood for hundreds of years until the 1900s to mean man shall not lie with a boy, and they're talking about those slave boys. Okay, that changes things.

Well, a lot.

That changes things a lot.

That changes the definition completely.

And I think all— completely. I think all of us listening, unless it's people doing this, all of us listening would say, yeah, that's wrong. Men should not have sex with boys. That's wrong. Boys can't give consent. Boys are not of equal status or equal power. They can't say no, therefore they can't say yes. And so, and it's wrong and it's devastating and it's harmful and it hurts people that have to endure it. And this is saying don't do that. So if we are being authentic, we'd say, okay, men, you need to, you need to get a hold of yourself and stop having sex with anybody except your wife.

You know, right?

Yeah. And it, you know, it— even if you divorce and you find another woman, it can't be somebody that, you know, if you're a doctor, it can't be your patient. If you're a psychologist, it can't be your client. If you're a teacher, it can't be your student because of the power differential. That's why we have laws about those things. Power plays a huge part in this, right? And that's what these are addressing. But power— people in power were the ones interpreting this, so naturally they don't really want to say that. So those— let's have it mean something else. Okay, it must mean those gay people. Well, none of us here are gay, right? Okay, let's, let's have it be about gay people, right? Okay, well, that's not— that's not kind, is it? That's not humane.

It's not humane.

It's not.

It is not right.

Yeah.

And it has hurt millions of people.

Yes. Yes.

I've been doing that. And it has not only hurt millions of people, it has broken millions of families.

Yes. Yes. So my daughter is a musician, my younger. So my, my youngest daughter came out as well. So we are in 2 for 5. Of our kids, um, identify as LGBTQ. And I always say when I'm speaking, I always say, it's okay, it's okay, we love the straight ones too. And they always laugh because it puts the shoe on the other foot, right? So, but our youngest daughter came out and she's a musician and she was just nominated. She sang on a, on an album, Weather, by Tycho. Her name is Saint Sinner, her music name, and she was nominated for a Grammy Grammy!

Stop it!

Yeah, and my husband went. One plus one, you know, she got a plus one. Yes, took my husband. He was so— it was— he was the perfect person to take. He's been so good to her, supporting her. We have supported her for so long in her dream. And anyway, and they go to the Grammys. It's a— it's an amazing event. And I just— I have thought many times through this whole process, and when I've gotten to stay with her, her you know, house and blah, blah, blah. I think what a tragedy it would have been if I had said, "Okay, church, pastor, okay, I think you're right. I have to cut off community. I have to withhold community and love and intimacy and approval and all the things a mother provides." from my children, my two queer daughters. I have to do that. Okay. And, and first of all, she wouldn't be where she is without that. And my other daughter either wouldn't have flourished in their lives the way they are if, if their parents had diminished the relationship. But, but what a, what a thing I would have missed out on. My Gosh, right? Someday I'm gonna be an old lady and I'm going to want to have a loving relationship with my children. And parents, we often act as though we are in control forever, not looking on the horizon and saying, you know, the bumper sticker, be nice to your kids, they're gonna choose your nursing home, right? You know, someday the shoe's gonna be on the other foot. And I want to have a good relationship in those days too. And I, you know, I say that kind of tongue-in-cheek, and it, it sounds like a selfish motivation. If it works, go ahead with it. But, but the truth is, I want this relationship with them my entire life.

Our apologies for the abrupt ending. This incredible interview is over 90 minutes long. We had so much fun, and Susan just has so much great information. Part 2 will go live on March 31st, so stay tuned to hear the conclusion of this awesome interview. In the meantime, feel free to reach out to me if you have questions you'd like to have me answer, and if you love my podcast, please rate it and review it. Until next time!