#12 | No Apologies: Confronting Harmful Faith-Language Toward LGBTQ Individuals (Part 2)

Welcome to Just Breathe, the podcast focused on transforming the LGBTQ+ conversation and supporting you on your journey with your LGBTQ loved one. You are not alone.

Welcome to Just Breathe, parenting your LGBTQ My name is Heather Hester, and I am excited to be with you to transform the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. Wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. So welcome back for part 2 of my interview with Susan Cottrell. I hope you're ready for more enlightening information and interesting insights. I don't want to make you wait any longer, so without further ado, the continuation of my interview with Susan Cottrell.

Yes, so my daughter is a musician, my younger— so my, my youngest daughter came out as well. So we are in 2 for 5 of our kids identify as LGBTQ. And I always say when I'm speaking, I always say, it's okay, it's okay, we love the straight ones too. And they always laugh because it puts the shoe on the other foot, right? So, but our youngest daughter came out and she's a musician and she was just nominated. She sang on an album, Weather by Tycho. Her name is Saint Sinner, her music name, and she was nominated for a Grammy. A Grammy!

Stop it!

Yeah, and my husband went, one plus one, you know, she got a plus one. Yes, I took my husband. He was so— it was— he was the perfect person to take. He's been so good to her, supporting her. We have supported her for so long in her dream. And, um, anyway, and they go to the Grammys. It's a— it's an amazing event. And I just— I have thought many times through this whole process, and when I've gone to stay with her at her, you know, house and blah blah, I think What a tragedy it would have been if I had said, "Okay, church, pastor, okay, I think you're right. I have to cut off community. I have to withhold community and love and intimacy and approval and all the things a mother provides from my children." my two queer daughters. I have to do that. Okay. And, and first of all, she wouldn't be where she is without that. And my other daughter either wouldn't have flourished in their lives the way they are if, if their parents had diminished the relationship. But, but what, what a thing I would have missed out on. My gosh.

Right.

Someday I'm gonna be an old lady and I'm going to want to have a loving relationship with my children. And parents, we often act as though we are in control forever, not looking on the horizon and saying, you know, the bumper sticker, be nice to your kids, they're gonna choose your nursing home. You know, someday the shoe's gonna be on the other foot. And I want to have a good relationship in those days too. And I, I, you know, I say that kind of tongue-in-cheek, and it, it sounds like a selfless motivation. If it works, go ahead with it. But, but the truth is, I want this relationship with them my entire life. I love them like any, you know, like I can't even believe how much love capacity a human being has until they have children. And, and, you know, you want to see the mama bear come out, fight me over my kids because you'll see it.

Oh yeah.

And, and that's how we should feel. That's how God designed us to feel about our children, to protect them, to usher them into this, into their time on planet Earth. And then they usher us out, and it's a beautiful thing. And we need that continuity relationship. And for me to throw a hissy and say, well, they're, you know, I don't think you should date girls, or you're not doing it the way, or, you know, one of you got a tattoo, I don't like that, or you're not going to the church I approve of, or any of that stuff, that's not mine to say. No, these are human beings with their own lives, and I am the lucky, lucky, incredibly blessed person who ushered them into the world and got to nurture them as human beings into adulthood. I am not God in place of God for them, the God that we— that that Jesus said you got it all wrong about, the one with a billion rules watching for you to step a toe out of place. That is not our role. And we do that because we think God does that, and we think it's our job to do it. And our religious institutions of this type condition us to believe that and to do that, but it's not right. And it's not God and it's not Jesus and it's not the great leaders who really brought about beauty and love and God's love to all of us, right?

I mean, that's, that's exactly it. And, and what, what beauty. Yeah, that we're so blessed to be around, right? And to, and to be a part of.

Yeah.

And, um, and to— yes, it is scary.

Yeah.

But it's—

oh my God, a lot of good things are scary.

That's it.

That's it.

And I actually, I have this quote on my wall that says, um, you know, if it's scary, then it's something that I should do. It's something I should embrace. You know, not, not the scary where you're like, oh, alarm bells, I should be running because I'm in a dark alley. Not that scary, but the scary, you know, where, oh, this is unfamiliar, this is uncomfortable. Yeah, that's good.

The scary that calls up the best of our courage, right?

Yes, exactly right. And, and I just think, gosh, are we lucky to be moms in this.

Yeah, I mean, what wouldn't you do for your child? And we— and, and another thing is people will say, well, you're just excusing it because it's your child. I'm like, you, first of all, 'Zip your mouth unless you're going to ask me a question about this. You really don't have a right to tell me what I've done or do.' But the truth is, I poured myself out in prayer and begging God to make things clear to me. And God did make them clear. And I, and I listened. But I, I toiled over this, and I read everything, and I fought to to understand what I had internalized and what does it mean and what does God, what is the Holy Spirit who will lead us in all truth, really have to say to me about this? So we say, oh, I would die for my child. Okay, would you? Because that, that literally probably won't be called for. But would you die to your belief system, to your understanding and instead let God replace it with God's understanding. Well, these are my deeply held religious beliefs. I know, I know, but they're hurting your child. So that right there, they're hurting this community and they're hurting you. And that right there says, okay, love God and love others and everything else will line up under that. So your deeply held beliefs aren't, aren't lining up under loving God and loving others. Well, I'm telling— I, I do love them by telling them they're going to hell. No, that's not love. That's never demonstrated as love. Paul never even mentioned hell, just FYI. Okay, that should make us reconsider what we think about hell, shouldn't it? And Jesus only mentioned it— it was a literal thing. He was talking about a dump outside of the city called Gehenna, and was translated as hell. Okay, well, that's worth noting, isn't it?

Anyway, I mean, totally. There's so much more to say about all that, but I know I'm just fascinated. I— and I'm going right along here with you. Yeah, so fascinating, and I love it. And I know everybody— I know everybody out there will be too. This is just so wonderful. But I will— I will keep moving, otherwise we're gonna have like a 3-hour interview. It's gonna be awesome. But I— this next one is one that I've, I've really thought so much about and prayed about and just spent a lot of time going through. So just a little background, you know, for you and for everybody out there. The summer right after Connor came out, we have— my family has a family reunion that's every other summer, and they've been doing it for probably 50 years at this point. And again, this is my mom's family and they are all Church of God. And so at that point, the last reunion, Connor was out to me and to my husband Steve and to his sister Isabel and a few, a handful of friends, but nobody else. Nobody else knew. And so during this reunion a cousin of mine who's older than me. She's third cousin. I don't know, you know, like third, fourth, how— 12 times removed. I don't know how that works. But anyway, had kind of cornered me at one point. And we have a couple of cousins who are out, and one attends, several others do not. Anyway, she had a bee in her bonnet and was just shredding these cousins and saying things like, their mother was too overbearing, they are vile, that using the lovely lifestyle, you know, anyone who supports this lifestyle is equally damned. And you've written and talked about this so much, about, um, non-affirming family members and non-affirming friends. What is your advice on how we handle people like that in our lives? And, you know, handle— because it tends to come at us very aggressively, right? And it's ugly and hurtful. So how can we handle that gracefully?

Well, I think it's important, a couple of things to keep in mind before you even open your mouth. First of all, everything they're saying, they learned, they internalized. And unless they are asking for your opinion, they probably won't hear it. So you can say a lot of things and get into the scripture, you know, a scripture slugfest, and it won't go anywhere. So don't— I would say don't waste your time if people aren't actually asking you because they don't— they, they're not seeking to hear, they're just seeking to speak. That doesn't mean don't say anything. It means don't expect to have a reasonable conversation. But I always like to take a step back and say, you know, wow, well, remind me not to tell you anything, uh, you know, anything intimate on my part because I see how you talk about people. You know, it— because they're the ones who are really out of— they're the ones gossiping right now. So whatever the gay cousin is doing. This person is the one gossiping and, um, slandering and bearing false witness. And so I like to keep it there and say, you know, I, I'm not talking about the cousin right now, but I'm, I'm really intrigued by how you're speaking of them and where you think that you get the— I the permission to just trash our cousin. You know, that's where it needs to remain, not even the merits of the case. It's kind of like when you have a toddler or a young child and you argue with them. It's like— not that I have ever done that.

No, no, no.

But I've had Rob come in when I was talking to the oldest one, he was 2 or 4 or something, and Rob will say You really shouldn't get down to that level of conversation. I'm like, okay, duly noted. But in that scenario, to get down in the— it is kind of, we might say, a 2-year-old level what they're saying, because it's something they just learned and regurgitated. That's what's right. And to say, you know, I don't— I'm not here to talk about the other cousin. Because their, their life is not my business unless I'm lifting them up. But I'm really intrigued by how you feel so free to talk about them. Wow, I'm, I'm, I'm amazed by that. I love the verse when Jesus says that, you know, the one who says, oh, I thank God I'm not like other, that other, you know, other men, I am so righteous and pious. And the other one, you know, is saying 'Oh God, forgive me for my situations, my sins.' Okay, I— this person standing there is being that guy, right? And say, 'Wow, I'm, I'm not as bold as you are to, to think that I have the answers for other people.' Yeah, you just kind of do it in a way that kind of disarms them, that puts the spotlight right back on them and what they're doing in this moment. Because it's horrifying if you look at it that way, you know. And, and to see— you can come up with all kinds of things like, oh my gosh, I, I love Joe, you know, the other cousin. I, I love him. I'm, I'm sure not going to talk about him the way you are, but, you know, wow, I think I'm gonna go get some punch, you know.

Right, right. Oh, that's so— that is so good.

Um, he's never talked to you about somebody else. Unless he was calling out what you were doing to that somebody else. He talks to the religious leaders about others because of their treatment of them. But he didn't tell you, you know, oh God, you're, you're so-and-so is such a derelict.

Right.

Never did that. Moses didn't do that. Muhammad didn't do that. It's always about what, what are, what is God saying to you?

Right. And that's so interesting. And also I think kind of circles back to the, what are you afraid of?

Yes.

What are you afraid of? And that's really.

What are you afraid of? And if somebody will be authentic enough on that— I jumped in right there on you.

No, that's good.

If somebody will be authentic enough where you can say even to that person, you know, what are you afraid of? How does this— what does this have to do with you? What are you afraid of about this? How does it affect your life if so-and-so is gay? You know, what, what are you afraid of really? It can be a very illuminating question if they're willing to be open, right?

I think that's the, that's the key point there, right? Because that is a scary question. Yeah, if you're not ready for it, for sure.

I asked somebody, somebody, a close relative— this was early in my journey on this— and she didn't agree with anything I'm saying. And I said, is there any way that anything about this you don't understand yet, that maybe God has something to show you that you don't yet understand. What do you think she said? She said no, no, no. Okay, well, I'll get my latte to go, right? And we'll see you later, right?

You know, well, and I think that's a really hard thing to do because we're also conditioned about family, right? So I think especially when it's coming at us from family members, you know, it's easier when friends or neighbors say things and you're like, okay, well, I don't need to talk to you anymore, right? But when it's a family member, it's a different story because we're very conditioned to think, well, we're related, blood related, right? So it makes it a little bit trickier. But I think that's really important, to your point, is, you know, allowing and giving ourselves the permission to say Yeah, I choose my kid and I choose God's love, and my kid and God's love are not jiving with this, right?

And you know, yes, Mom, I love— would love to have a relationship with you, and I hope we can do that. But if you're gonna— if you're gonna continue to say things about my child or to my child that are harmful, then I won't— I will not be around you, or they won't be around you. So, you know, it— I love you. I know it's hard. I know what you're going through is hard, and you really were conditioned to believe this. And if this turns out— if you turn out to be wrong about this, what else do you believe that may be wrong? I know that's scary, Mom, and I hurt for you. I feel for you. But that's my child, you know. Of course I'm gonna love and embrace them, and I won't let you say things that are harmful. What have I said that's harmful? Well, you're not, you're not hearing him. You're not believing what he's saying about himself, and you're trying to change him, and you keep bringing, you know, scripture into it, and it's not helpful. You don't understand it's not helpful. So it's just it returns them to their part. That's the thing that, that our Christian institutions that are not affirming have done wrong, is given people permission to speak up and other— to call people out. It's a call-out culture instead of calling in. Jesus always called in, but instead we're calling out. And that's It's no wonder everybody's all divided. So not, not to let other family members, um, call out your child because they don't understand the situation. And so many— some of my relatives that I've talked to about this, they don't even ask questions. I, I don't remember any of them saying, how is Annie? How is Annie doing? How's Hannah? Instead, they're giving me their opinions. How are you? How did you get on this journey? How did you come? I mean, you were— believe the evangelical stuff we did. How did you change so much? They don't ask that question. It's too scary. It'll end up dismantling things they don't want to dismantle. And so they, they're stuck just driving you back with their scriptures and their words and their, you know, um, belief system. They try to hold you at bay doing that, but it's not the right thing. And, and if, if they are— if they're not willing to hear another, you know, you've already heard their position. You, you were in the church. You, you know that position. They don't need— correct. It's not equal time. It's like Well, I believe slavery is wrong because of this, but I— but it may be right because of this. Here's the slave's point of view, but here's the slave owner's. Okay, slavery is not okay, and you bashing my child is not okay, and you bashing this community is not okay, or trying to fix them or change them, it's not okay. Now, if you have questions about it, I'm happy to talk about the journey, but I can't— but if that's not what you're here for, then then let's not talk about this, right?

So, and I think that's really— thank you for saying all of that, because that really is— I think a lot of, a lot of people find themselves in that position, and it's, it's kind of a, you know, one of those positions that freeze you for a little bit.

Yeah.

And you feel like, okay, how do I handle this? Yeah.

And well, they stir up all your fears and your—

right.

Maybe I am wrong. 'Oh my gosh, and maybe I'm going to hell.' I mean, that's how— that's what the conditioning does.

Yes.

Power. And that's how it keeps people subject to it all.

Yes. And I think, you know, especially depending where you are on this journey, right, you know, how new you are to it, or, you know, how open you are to learning everything, it all depends. It's all relative. But I think being comfortable with the fact that they will never ask, they don't want to know, and being okay with that, and that is not a reflection on you. Yes, that is theirs.

Oh no, has nothing to do with you.

Correct.

Nothing to do with you. So yeah, that's the hard thing.

That is the hard thing. One of the many. Um, but I think they also, you know, it was, I was wanting to talk a little bit about denial. Denial, but I really feel like talking about— talking about this is really denial and fear are kind of sisters.

Yes. Yes.

Right.

If I let this gay child out of this box and face what's really going on, who knows where that'll— no, no, no, you've got to get back in the box. That's why we do that, right?

Because it's just too scary.

It's too scary. And too unfamiliar. For people who claim to have an intimate relationship with the creator of the universe, we live out of fear a whole lot.

Oh goodness, we do. It's kind of extraordinary, isn't it?

Extraordinary. It shows that we're not really— it's not really about God, it's about our, our church structure. Because if the God of the universe says, climb up on my lap and sit with me and I'll, I'll rub your head and I love you unconditionally. That should give us all the courage we ever need in our lives.

Ever.

And we're afraid, right? So, and I think it's because we're trying to hold the system together because we don't really believe that God loves me the way I am. We really don't. You know, it's kind of like a look in the mirror. Yeah, I'm, I'm really good. I could lose 10 pounds. Doesn't every woman say that? Or, you know, oh my gosh, I'm getting gray hair. Like, it's this negativity against ourselves. And so how could God love me? I, I have those bad thoughts. I whatever. And it's a misunderstanding of God is what it is. It's a misunderstanding of God, and it's a conditioned misunderstanding.

It is. Yeah, we have some work.

We have some work to do.

That is part of the mission.

Yes.

Yeah, we're going to change this.

Yes, people. That's right.

If I can change and Susan can change, yeah, everyone can change.

Please, please try not to be afraid and go to the Holy Spirit and say, what do you want to show me? Because what I'm doing is not working. I think my child is hurting by my response, and so what can I do? What do you want to show me? And listen. And if it's something positive, like love your child, you need to trust that you're hearing the Holy Spirit. I, I've never had a parent come back and say, yeah, God told me to throw my child out. I really haven't. It's their, it's their conditioned response. So go to the Holy Spirit and say, I need your help here, and listen. And set your beliefs at the door while you do that. Whatever beliefs you really need in your lap right now, the Holy Spirit will put them back in your lap, okay? It's a very courageous thing to go with open hands, with empty hands, and ask for an answer. And it can take some time. Sometimes you'll hear crickets for a little while because God is waiting for all that silt to settle down to the bottom so that you can actually hear God's voice.

It's— that is very true. All of the noise, there's so much noise, right? And I have found, you know, for me, just throwing that out there to this, because I was really struggling with this, that I, I've taken to meditating, which is my Yeah, the one place that I can actually connect.

Yes.

And, um, and I find that when I'm sitting, you know, when I'm sitting and I'm very still and quiet and not, you know, before I go to bed at night because I always fall asleep, you know, so there's no— there's not going to be talking done then. So it's that being very quiet and you can get yourself in that time, you know, whether you're listening to music or something soft or whatever, that helps you clear your mind and, and really be available to hear.

That's right.

And so there's no— I guess my point of telling you this is that there's no one right way.

Yes.

To do this. It's just, yes, do it. Just do it.

Just do it.

But it—

but, you know, but you have to be willing to step outside that constant tape that's running in your head. Yes, it's going to— you know, a tape doesn't change, it keeps playing the same thing. I can play an album 100 times and it's always going to say the same thing, right? And that tape in our head is going to say the same thing until you step back from it, push pause on it, push stop on it, and seek a different tape, a different noise, sound, whatever.

Right, that's exactly right.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness. Well, moving on a little bit, I want to, I want to switch to our kids because I'm sure people have questions about our kids. A few episodes ago, Connor and I collaborated to create a list for parents of what their teen wants them to know, which was really fun. And Connor's articulate and he gives it to you straight. He's 19 years old, so there was some editing to be done, but it was It was very much— it was so much fun and really powerful, I think, coming from Connor, who has struggled a lot with shame and depression. And that's even with our love and support.

Yeah.

So I love in your book you have two chapters on what not to say to your kids, not to say when they come out to you. And the two of them that I really, really like and that I'd love for you to talk a little bit about are It's a choice, and being gay is just like any other sin.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yes, those are so damaging. So if you're straight listening to this, when did you choose to be straight? You didn't choose to be straight. You just were straight. And I know in our culture, default— we do, we default to straight. And so we think something else must have been a choice, but it's not a choice. Every gay person or LGBT person, trans person that I've talked to, you know, the, the, the universal reply is, oh my gosh, I discovered this about myself. I fought it. I didn't want this to be true. Of course they didn't want it to be true. They know they live in a heteronormative world, you know, a world that favors being straight. They did not choose it. They— what they chose to do is to tell you about it. That's what they chose to— they chose to listen to what their heart was telling them. But when, you know, when a boy is, is 5 years old and he knows, you know, if, if a boy said, I want to marry Claire, Everybody would say, oh, isn't that so sweet? He doesn't know about sex yet, but he wants to marry the little girl in his class, and everybody's happy about that. Like, they think it's cute. But if he says, I want to marry Josh, we panic and think he doesn't know what he's talking about. But it's the same thing. The attraction is the romantic attraction to that person, and, and things flux. We grow, we, we 10, you know, we understand ourselves better as we grow and all that stuff. But when it's there, it's there, and you're not going to change it. They didn't choose it. And the other thing you asked, um, being gay is just like any other— yeah, it's not like any other sin. And, and it's— first of all, you're, you're already concluding in that, that it's a sin, right? I know you believe that, but that, that's certainly up for debate at the very least. And, and your child is really trying to understand, is it really a sin or not? So to say it's a, it's a sin is, is damaging more than you realize. But it's not like any other sin in that you can't change it. So let's compare it to alcoholism, which is often compared to, right? Well, I, I'm not allowed to have, uh, you know Alcohol, like be drunk all the time. Well, right. And if you stop getting drunk, first of all, you can stop getting drunk. That's within your power. Maybe hard. You may have to go to AA, but you can stop getting drunk. And when you do, your life gets better. Your family gets better. Your relationships get better. You're able to hold down a job better. All of the things— your, your health gets better. Okay. So there's a positive outcome to that. If you're gay, you can't stop being gay. That's the first difference. And even if you push it into denial, your life gets worse. Your rela— yourself gets fractured. Your relationship with others gets fractured. People are fighting against you trying to help you, uh, because they don't— they won't let you be who you are. And so it's this fracturing that happens. So stopping getting drunk will improve your life if you're an alcoholic. Denying you're gay will make your life worse. It's all the difference in the whole world. It's the absolute outcome.

Yeah, I love that analogy. I'm so glad you shared that. I was hoping you would because— and that's why, you know, there's so many, and every single one of them is so good, but I think these are two that, um, yeah. We run up against a lot and are really important too.

And the other thing is, I'll hear a man say, you know, well, I can't have affairs. I have to, I have to restrain myself. I can't just have affairs. And so, son, you can't have, you know, you can't ever marry a man. You're like, okay, first of all, I can just see his wife sitting and saying, oh really? So you would have affairs if it weren't against the rules, right? Good to know. We'll talk about that later, right? Okay. But secondly, that's like a homeless— it's like me walking down the street and there's a homeless man there who has no resources, and I say, you know, I just have the one apartment. It's not very big. It's just— it's an apartment. I have to pay rent every month. And, you know, I'd love to have a house in France, but I don't have that. We're really in the same boat. He's like, right, you're an idiot, right? We're not in the same boat. How about I take your apartment and you be on the street and tell me we're in the same boat, right? But it's the same thing. I just have the one wife that I can't have sex with other people that I, as I would like to. And you know, you, I'm just asking you to be celibate for the rest of your life, which doesn't just mean you can't have sex. It means You can't have intimacy. You can't have partnership. You can't have connection to, to wake up in the morning with and say, oh, let's do that thing today. Okay, great. Wow. You know, you know, what are we going to do about the kids? There's just this, this connection you have with a partner. And, and the command is to love God and love others. Well, how can you love others if you're terrified that you're gonna fall in love and do the wrong thing. You really isolates you. So it's completely, completely, completely different.

Yeah, thank you for saying that.

You're welcome.

Apples and oranges.

Apples and, you know, light posts.

You're right, not even two fruits.

Yes, not even two fruits. Yeah.

Oh my goodness. Okay, well, my last one, my last question is a big one, um, but I think I think one that, again, I think kids, especially LGBTQ teenagers out there, and I think probably specifically teenagers because that, that tends to be the really angsty group and thoughtful group. But since coming out 3 years ago, Connor has become very anti-anything Christianity, and he is currently saying that he is agnostic. And at first, when he would say this, I would just internally freak out. Like, I've become very, very good at him telling me things and being like, ah, all right. On the inside, I'm actually like freaking out. And so after a time I realized, well, of course he's saying this. He's mad at God for creating this this way. Like, he's trying to figure this out and he is going through a process right now to try to figure out. Well, I mean, so this is, I guess, my question for you is, what advice do you give kids who are in this place and who are just really struggling with their, with their faith, or if they even want to have a faith? Because, oh my gosh, I'm so mad right now.

Yes. So I, I know that is probably the scariest thing for, for a lot of parents is what about their faith? That's the question I had too. What does this mean about her faith, and what does it mean about our faith? It's a, it's a big question, but you— I, I invite you as parents to take a breath and to relax and to say, okay, this is their relationship with God, and it may— it won't look like I think it ought to look, or like mine looks. It's different. We have to understand they have been devastated by what they've been told God thinks of them. And even if you didn't say it as a parent, they heard it. They got it in the culture. If they were in any kind of church or religious, you know, institution, they got that message. It's in our culture everywhere. And so you, you would do be wise to just sit and let it go and let them do what is in their heart to do and let God reveal God's self to our, to your child and not try to say, well, don't, don't get away from God. Don't. What they're doing is they're detoxing from a, a lot of hurt and they're trying to understand what this really means. They're seeking to be authentic, and they're seeking an authentic relationship with who God really is, not who the church has told them God is, because God is not who the church has told them God is. So give them all the time they need, and in the meanwhile, you would probably really benefit by letting yourself be detoxed from what you've been told about God and say, "Okay, God, I haven't really told you this because I'm not really allowed to, but I'm really angry. I'm angry at how my son's been treated. I'm actually angry that he's gay, that she's lesbian, that he's transgender. I'm angry that you let this happen because I did all these things to follow you, and our unspoken deal was you would protect me from any bad situations, and, and you didn't keep up with your end of the bargain. I know I'm not allowed to say that as a Christian or as a faithful religious person, but I'm, I'm gonna be authentic with you. Be as authentic as your child is being in your own relationship, not with your— I mean, this is you and God, right? Right. And, and let that— and let God show you what's true about God. God has all the time in the world, and we're— we want everything to be together now, but we can let God show God's truth to us in due time, and it will be much more satisfying. You didn't learn algebra in kindergarten. You had to build up to it. And, and God wants to show you truth about who God really is. But it has to be— the, the cup has to be emptied out of the other stuff first before God can pour in something new and refreshing to you. But don't be afraid of that process. God is eternal, right? And so we don't have to be afraid that my, uh, religious institution of origin is, is not fitting for me right now. Oh my gosh, that means God is not real. No, it doesn't. It means your man-made institution is, is faulty, right? Just try to, to not be afraid that your child is going in a different direction. Agnostic means I don't know, and that's a fair place to be for a child who has been abused by their understanding of God. And, and even if they say I'm an atheist, I don't believe in God, that's okay. God is not offended by that. You know, God, God believes in your child, so they don't— you don't need to worry about that. But give it time and let it be, and let your relationship morph, transform the way, uh, it's— you're on this path for it to do. And, and meet up again down the road, way down the road, with your child about it and see where you are then. It will be really damaging if you try to hold them to the concept of God you're afraid they're getting away from. All you'll do is really frustrate them and drive them farther away. You will drive them farther away. I used to love, love, love, love pizza. And then I worked— in college, I worked at pizza places where you could have all the pizza you want, you know, all the, all the time. And I got where I didn't eat pizza for, I don't know, 10 years, not voluntarily. Unless it was the only thing there. Well, now I really like pizza again, but it took a long time. And, and there's nothing wrong with pizza, but I had had too much too often and I needed a break. And they've had too much of God shoved down their throat by their, their, uh, church institution and their upbringing. And so you have to let them unfold.

That makes a ton of sense. I love that. Thank you. Thank you very much, because I think that just the visual of that is, is great, of them being able to detox everything, right? They've got to just—

yeah, but if rid of all that is really in a real God, then you don't have to be afraid, right? It's in the institution, then yeah, you're, you're going to be afraid because they're not coming back to the institution as such.

Yeah, no, yeah.

And they don't— they're not welcome there. They don't belong there.

Well, that's it. Yeah, it is hurtful to be there. And that's, that is, that's it. But I think helpful advice too for us as parents to detox all of that, right?

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I found that, and I've heard this in our group from so many other parents, I have found that I am much more loving now, more compassionate, more tenderhearted, more inclusive. I see people. The way I didn't see people before. And I'm way less judgmental. I would never have said I was judgmental. I was judgmental. The church grooms it in us. And, and I had to really step back and, and let God work something different in me. And I, I love who I am so much more now than who I was back then. Oh my gosh. And I'm freer. It's for freedom that Christ has set us free, Galatians 5:1 tells us. I am so much freer now than I ever was.

Yeah, I— that's absolutely— I mean, that's exactly right and so beautifully put. And I think, you know, so important for people to really hear that because that's exactly what it is. It allows us to be who we are authentically meant to be. Who we were created to be in this world.

Yes.

And, you know, for whatever amount of time occurred before, that was not who we truly are. And so yes, this, this shift in this growth is scary, it's uncomfortable, but it's really beautiful.

It's like going off to kindergarten, right? College. It's right. What are you gonna— so is your first job, so is getting married. What are you gonna— those things.

That's exactly it. Yeah, that's exactly— it's part of life.

That's right, right.

We're, we're going and changing.

It's just scary because it's unknown, that's all.

Correct.

Yeah, by the second year of college, you're like, oh, you know, you're showing the newbies around.

All right, bring it on. Exactly, exactly. Oh my gosh. Well, we're gonna, we're gonna end with one of my favorite quotes of yours, um, which is— and everybody should have this pinned up on their bulletin board. Real love accepts people for who they are with room for who they may become. And I love that addition, and it, and it speaks so well to the beautiful work that you are doing and that you and Rob are doing. And I really just want to know, how can we as a community help you with your mission and your Freed Hearts mission?

Just send people, send people my way. Send them to freedhearts.org. Send them the TED Talk to watch because it really touches a deep place in people.

Yes, it does.

And, you know, invite them to get Mama Nguy or, um, the parents course online and, and to go and to get in our parents groups, our moms groups and our dads group. We have a special trans group also for moms of trans kids. But get in the groups and get support. But, you know, have them connect with me and email me to get in the group and email me to get the book on Hell. It's— I didn't write it, a friend wrote it, but okay, powerful. So, um, yeah, and, and find understanding, you know, we're in this together on this journey. And I, I hear your heart of love for your child and, and, you know, Just don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. All the angels that appeared to humans in the Bible always said, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. It's okay. It's okay. And I want to say that to you. Don't be afraid. This is all good. This is not outside God's plan. This is part of God's plan.

Yes.

Yeah, it is. Anne's daughter, part of God's plan. Don't, don't be afraid.

Thank you.

It was a beautiful place to end. And I, I just am so grateful for all of your time today. Again for being here with me and with all of us.

I hope you all enjoyed these two episodes with Susan. It is my sincerest desire to bring you guests and information that answers questions, encourages new ones, enlightens you, educates you, brings you peace, and most of all reminds you you that you are not alone. Until next time.