#15 | A Hope Dealer’s Journey: From Queer Survival to Courageous Healing

Welcome to Just Breathe, the podcast focused on transforming the LGBTQ+ conversation and supporting you on your journey with your LGBTQ loved one. You are not alone.

Welcome to Just Breathe, parenting your LGBTQ+ LGBTQ teen, my name is Heather Hester and I am excited to be with you to transform the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. Wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. Today I have the talented and engaging Jen Slumac on the show. Jen is the author of Soul Not Skin, as well as a mentor, educator, performer, and producer. She is in long-term recovery from alcoholism, a coping mechanism she used to survive as a queer woman in a world that told her she didn't belong. Jen is a captivating storyteller, sharing the lessons of her life in a way that not only exudes courage, but inspires it as well. Without further ado, here is Jen Slumac.

Jen, thank you so much for being with me today. I'm so excited to have you on the show and as a part of this community. And I have some, some fun questions for you. And I think we're going to have a really fun discussion. Um, I want to start with your book, which I just finished this weekend and I absolutely loved. It's called Soul, Not Skin, and it was— it's so beautifully written and really takes— at least it took me to just on this journey that is painful yet exquisite just a beautiful journey of your life. What inspired you to write it?

Well, Heather, first of all, thanks for having me. I'm really glad to be here, and I'm grateful to have found your podcast and the work that you're doing. And I just want to say that it's— as, as a person who grew up without the support I longed for, I appreciate what you're doing. What inspired me to write it was just that, you know, it's, it's the book that didn't exist when I needed this book. I needed a story to tell me that I wasn't crazy. I needed a story to tell me that I wasn't bad. I needed a story to tell me that God loved me. I needed a story that sort of validated the many parts of who I was. And, you know, trying to maintain that in a world that says I couldn't be those things, you know, I didn't have folks to— I didn't have people to ask questions to about what I was feeling. I was terrified to ask the questions that I had, so I often didn't. So I wanted to— I just, I really needed to put the book out in the universe so that it's there in case somebody else needs it, because I did desperately and it didn't exist.

I think there are a lot of somebodies out there who need it, and it is, it is written in such a way that it's— you feel connected to you and you feel like, oh my gosh. I mean, and this isn't— I'm so excited for Connor to read it because I know there are so many pieces of it that he's just going to be like, oh yay, somebody else went through this. And oh, this isn't bad that I feel this way. And there are solutions and I do have choices. So thank you for writing it, and thank you for really bearing your soul, because it is— there's a lot of vulnerability in there and just a lot of beauty. So thank you for doing that.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for that. And you know, this was the gentle version. I cut a lot. I cut a lot.

I wondered.

Yeah, this was the— this was kind of the young adult, young author, um, you know, young adults, uh, version of it. Because, um, you know, a lot of, a lot of the folks in my life who show up in the book are still alive, and our relationships are forever in repair. And there's been tremendous progress made in all of those directions. And so, you know, I had to be responsible with what I— which parts of the story I did tell.

Sure, that makes a ton of sense. Um, I can completely appreciate that because I, I think about, you know, as I'm in the process of writing my book, I've been doing kind of the same thing. Uh, as you think about these people you do want to be in a relationship with, right? So it can be reparative Right.

Yeah.

Well, and the thing is, too, I think a lot of times, you know, the older I get, the more I realize that we all are sitting at the same table, but we experience different sides of the table as we grow up. Right. So, you know, a lot of the things that I used to think were awful that parents did or friends did or teachers did or didn't do, You know, I could look at them entirely different when I was the age that they were, right? Right. Like, I mean, a parent— when I felt like I wasn't getting my needs met, they had their own life going on. You know, I was— when I was young, I didn't recognize that. But as I get older, I'm like, they weren't being absent. They were literally busy. Like, they literally had things going on in their own life. And I looked fine watching TV, you know what I mean? So it just— so I don't, I don't want to blame. I don't want to blame, but I do want to tell. I want to tell the story, and I want to say this is what happened to me. And it was a long journey for me to be able to, um, to share my truth without, uh, feeling the need— without feeling guilty, right? Right.

Not saying like, you did this to me, but you did a really beautiful job of just telling your story. And never once did I feel like you were playing the victim or saying, you know, you did this to me, or you did, you know, pointing fingers in any way. In fact, I felt like almost at every turn you were taking accountability and you were, you know, there were a lot of seemingly like aha moments and, um, a lot of reflection and a lot of, oh, this is what that meant. Um, and so it read just in this beautiful— I know I keep saying that, but it really was so lovely to read something where It was just this expression. It really was like an expression of your soul and soul experience. So really well done on doing that, because I know how hard that had to be and how much work that you have probably done to get to that point.

Well, thank you for that.

Of course. Oh my goodness. Well, it's hard work. It is really hard work, and I admire that. I admire everybody. You have to read this book because it's amazing. It's really amazing, and you will understand what I'm admiring. Um, so you, as you were growing up, you were really hyper-aware, um, of the difference between religion and faith. Really well before you fully understood your awareness of that difference. Can you talk about how you were able to keep your relationship with God protected from all of the other chaos in your life?

You know, it's funny, I don't feel like I did. I felt like it was just a storm for decades. There was, there was just this, this conflicting storm, you you know, between what felt true in my heart and what I needed to do to be in compliance with the world, you know. And I think that people in general can understand that, you know, we all have that in some way or another, right? It's like the closet, you know, we all have a closet, closet of shame. And so I I connected. I was just— I was joyful as a child, as a young girl. I was joyful and I was creative and I was excited and I was happy and I was, you know, talkative and I liked to dance and I wanted to move around and I was all of these wonderful things. And then the world's ideas started getting into me and, you know, just it I really cherished my joy and I really wanted to keep it. And I say that in hindsight now with some clarity, but only because now that I'm, you know, looking back, I think that was my biggest fight, was holding on to my joy, holding on to, you know, and I think joy and God and love, those things can almost be interchangeable. You know, I just felt like, you know, this, this part of me that wanted to dance needed to live. And I know that the world believed what it was saying. You know, I knew that my parents believed what they were saying. I knew that people that I loved and admired believed what they were saying. But I also, I also knew that what my experience was was also happening. And I didn't grow up in a family where I had a whole lot of support of saying what I felt or saying what I saw. And so it's been a long journey to get to a place where I can recognize that what I see and what I feel is legitimate, you know, and what I see and what I feel has— there's space for that. You know, there's this whole other set of tools called boundaries that I had to learn. You know, there's just— there's so many levels of, of growing up. But I think that I always knew that God was the key, the God idea. I think I knew very young that the God idea was this, like, perfect love that could exist. That was sort of above the heads of the imperfect people, uh, and imperfect people included my parents, included the adults in my life telling me these things that didn't feel true, right? And, and I, I kind of— I, I knew that there was a truth bigger than what they were telling me if I could get past them, uh, to get it, and then ever find the courage to to live with it. You know, that, that's, that's the torment. And, and, and that's, that's the torment of being— for me, my experience of being a queer person in the closet was it is a tremendous conflict with, with what people say is true and right and good. And when you realize in your heart as a, as a gay person that the people telling you these things mean, they mean it and they mean well. They're telling you that because they love you, and you recognize that. You don't want them to have to go through what you're going through, and so you want to hold your secret because as soon as you release it, then they have to come out of the closet, right? I come out of the closet to you, and now you have to deal with the, oh my God, you're telling me that this is real? You're right, this can't possibly— now you have to look at the conflicts of everything that we've been taught, right? But you're going to do it without, uh, without an alignment with my truth. You're going to do it out of love for me, right? And that's too big a burden. I saw my mother had too many burdens already, you know. I didn't, I didn't want there to be another one and to have it be on me.

Right.

That's where a lot of the depression came in for me, and that's where a lot of the sadness came in for me, was I need— I really wanted to fix the disconnect. I wanted to fix me to align with the world outside of me so that I could spare the people I loved from having to deal with what I knew was true.

And that's so much for a young person.

Yeah, and, and little people do it all around the globe, not just, not just little gay people, you know. For we, we all have some experience with, with the otherness. We all know the experience of not belonging, you know. Different experiences of it though carry different social weight and social gravity and potential harm and danger, right?

Right. You, you say that with such extraordinary clarity, which I know has taken you years to, to come to. There are a lot of, I'm sure, at the time what seemed like, you know, ors, you know, I can do this or do that, I have to be this or that, instead of you know, ands where I, I am a queer person and God loves me and my parents love me exactly, you know, for exactly who I am, and the world is not condemning it, you know, and there are positive messages.

I mean, well, and understand too, Heather, that when I was a little girl, I mean, there wasn't a whole lot of damning of gay people that I was aware of or that I was experiencing. It was just an absolute silence balance. I just didn't see it. It didn't exist. There was no— there was no— there was no version of life that this duality was going to survive in. There was no version of my family's world where I was going to bring home the girl I couldn't stop thinking about. No version of, uh, my father being in the pulpit and giving a sermon on Sunday morning was going to be celebrating, uh, his daughter falling in love with another girl. Like, I knew that, and it's not because he said it, it's because it never got spoken. There was no version of reality that matched who I knew I was, and that creates the silence, and that creates the compression of, uh, of progression, right?

Like, right, the depression.

That's what depression is, right? It's right, the anger turned inward. Yeah, no, anger that this, that this doesn't fit, right? And that I can't fix it.

And just the absence. I think that it— that's such an That's really extraordinary because I, I've obviously, you know, kind of attacked this more in, in recent times with what our kids coming out now are facing, right, which is quite the opposite. Um, there's a lot coming at them all the time, but thinking about it from where you were as a little girl, the absence, the silence, the there, there wasn't anything. That was a whole— had to be a whole different kind of like, whoa, what? Just, I can't imagine how confusing and hard. And I mean, that's not even a good word for it, but just—

well, it's— yeah, it's, it's a challenge, but it's what, it's what crafts us, you know. I can say now having survived a lot of what was very, very difficult for me to survive. But, you know, I did, and I can say now that I wouldn't trade it. I mean, I don't want kids to need to go through, you know, all of it. But also my faith says too that I think I saw— I hate to quote a Facebook meme, but TobyMac, I think, said and I'm probably going to butcher it, but something like, be grateful for the wound that draws you to God. Yeah, I don't think that it, it needed to be, uh, quite as hard as it was. I would have taken a little bit of a freaking break. But, uh, but honestly, um, you know, that's where alcohol comes in. Alcohol helped me a lot. I think I would have probably taken my life if I didn't have alcohol to bridge me from a time when I didn't have the skills to deal with everything I was feeling. And a time where I was able to learn those things.

That is a big piece of your story and, um, you're, you're coping. And, and like you just said, it, it was such a clear statement, um, it did save you, right? And to a certain extent. And, um, until you were able to gain the skills, learn what you needed to learn, get to that next point in your life where you were ready, right? You were ready to shift. You were ready to take in the information that would help move you forward and move you out of that. So, um, I think this is something that so many kids who are coming out young, probably just across the board, deal with substance use, substance abuse, alcoholism, whatever, you know, the substance of choice is, right? Can you talk about your experience with that and really kind of what you've learned overall?

Yeah, sure. You know, it's interesting because my experience as a gay woman and my experience as an alcoholic woman are, you know, their own things. You know, they are their own experiences and I think that alcohol, uh, allowed me to survive a time when I didn't have the answers to, to satisfy my broken heart, you know. Like, I didn't— unfortunately, when you drink the way that I drank, seeking relief from, you know, heartache and, you know, just the, the conflict between me and, and the family role, the family or the social rules or whatever, just, you know Um, when you drink the way that I drink, uh, if you have an alcoholic body like I do— that's what makes me alcoholic is, um, the way that I think and the way that my body processes alcohol. You know, somebody could drink the way that I drink and may not have become an alcoholic. You know, they can be a heavy drinker for years, but I became alcoholic because I was already capable of becoming alcoholic. It's probably my greatest gift because I, I feel like there's this— and feel you might have to bring me back to the alcoholism. I'm gonna go here on a little tangent for a second, so feel free to pull me back. It will take no offense, okay?

No problem.

I feel like there's this general developmental thing that we human beings experience, right? We're like born as this little ball of light of possibility and everything. It's almost like this God's intention, like God God needs each one of us to express God's self, right, creatively. And, and like, we come out and we are this idea ready to become ourselves, and there's this little, uh, seed of that in us. And with the intention of growing in the family and this and the community and stuff is supposed to be the garden and the soil and, and to help us grow into that which we were intended to be, right?

Right.

But when who we who we've been seeded as and the environment we grow up in, whether it's the, the nuclear family or the world at large, however you want to micro or macrocosm that, right?

Right.

When we come up against the constructs that don't support us, then we get into this battle of either, you know, I'm going to thrive or I'm going to comply. And, and we learn to comply, and that's where we come up with the coping strategies and the whatevers. And a lot of people, Heather, in my experience, in my, in my perception of, of life, is many people spend their entire lives in compliance and never choose themselves. And it's because we can get by And it's because it's been so normalized not to thrive that we, we aim to be successful in the world's eyes rather than sit quietly and ask my little creative self seed, what is it that I'm supposed to do? What is it that I'm good at? What, you know. And so I say that alcoholism is the greatest gift because it robbed a lifetime of bullshitting myself from me. I was no longer able to pretend like I was okay, right? I was no longer able to look at myself in the face and stand what I saw. I just couldn't. No amount of mascara or eyeliner or lipstick, no, no, no cool denim jackets, nothing that I had going on was going to cover up how I felt about me when I was drinking the way I was drinking and doing the things that resulted from it. And, and so I had— I literally had to choose if I wanted to shift the way that I was living or if I wanted to keep going the way that I was going. And I need to be honest with you, when I was in the— when I was in my drinking, I wanted to stop. And we don't all get to. Many of us don't get to, right? We want to, but we may not be able to.

Yeah.

And I've buried many, many people in my years of recovery, in the time that I've been clean and sober, um, people who really wanted it and who tried and who, um, were good people. And I, um, I don't think that I'm any more special than they were, but I do— I hold my sobriety, uh, like a newborn, you know. I mean, it's an 18-year-old now, but when I got sober, I thought— so it talks back, it's got a little attitude.

It has, it has. Yeah, it has some sass to it now.

Um, but yeah, just needing to protect it. It's a new life, it's a rebirth, it's a new chance. You know, and not everybody gets that, and I hold it very dear.

I love that. That is such a beautiful way to look at it. And in the fact that you're able to look at it with such— in so many different ways, you know, as a, as a teaching tool, as a gift, as part of what shaped you to be who you are, to allow you to to do what you do and be who you are now in the world, right? To give you that kind of extra oomph, that extra, I need to do this because I've— this is a gift, right? I also love, you know, I'm glad you went off on that tangent because I think that is— you are a lovely storyteller because that is a great way to think about life. Right, that we all have that, we all have that. And, and it's whether, you know, all of those pieces are true. You know, I say— I, in fact, I just think you're saying that— I say this to my kids now because I have, you know, in the past several years, um, had my own, you know, kind of awakening and, and really realized kind of my purpose and my passion, right? And I think I don't want them to wait until they're in their 40s before they go after what they love and what they believe in and what they feel passionately about and what they're good at, right? So, so what if you get, you know, straight A's in science and math? Do you love science and math, or do you like to draw? What, what lights you up? What lights you on fire? That's what you do.

That's what I try to tell my son all the time, right? I try to tell him that all the time. Yeah, he's— oh, he's a good— he's a good dude. Yeah, yeah, he's an artist, he's a creative, he's an— you know, he's, uh, he stands out, you know. He's, he's one of those— it's just, uh, he's not the normal kid in the, in the bunch. He's got his own flair and he's got his own way of doing things. And, you know, I just encourage him. I say, man, you know, Um, just do, do what you do, you know, always move closer to that which makes you feel alive. But, you know, I think that sometimes it might take till your 40s.

Like, what if it takes that long to figure out what doesn't work?

Like, I don't know, right?

Right. Yeah, well, me too. Me too. And I say that out of, you know, thinking that their options. Now, of course, the reason that I have this passion, and we have, you know, we know what we know and we feel passionately about what we feel passionately about, is because of our life experience, right?

Right.

So I think you're right there too, that it is kind of the— we're the balance. But, um, if there's an option there, if we can, you know, these are these the things that we wish and want for our kids and those who whom we love is, um, you know, to, to, to not go through some of the things that we've had to go through, even though, you know, all of these things have, have created us and have molded us into these, right?

And trust, trust this, they're going through things that they're not telling us about. You know, they're going through their own stuff, you know. You know what's happening. I mean, it just is the way it goes. And, and, you know, we got to love— we got to love— I would love to see us all learn how to care better for ourselves, take care of us, cherish ourselves, and learn how to honor other people's journey. Just honor it. Just, you know, somebody tells you what they're going through, you know, never mind the debate or the argument or whatever, just, huh, thanks for sharing that with me. You know, like, just, just trust somebody else to be on their journey. Share our experience with each other. You know, um, there, there's the right and the wrong and the good and the bad, and all of these things that we've constructed are just so, so damaging, you know, even to the people who are upholding them. Even to people who are upholding them, and they may not even see it. You know, and you may not see it until you find yourself, you know, falling out of the matrix, basically, right? When you're, when you're forced out of the matrix and then you see, it's like, wow, it's all, it's all smoke and mirrors and garbage. Like, it's, you know, all we have is each other. All we have is each other. And our only job is to take care of each other and to become, you know, to to love, you know, to do what God did, to do, you know, what we've been shown and to love each other and to love God because God is the perfect example of no matter what you do, child, I adore you. So know that if you do some of these things, it's going to be really hard. But I'm here if you want to talk. And if you do other things, it's going to work out a little bit better. And I'm here to talk like like turning to God and learning to have that relationship with, with whatever that is for us, for each individual to find that, to be able to find that. And then, and then live among the mess that is humanity, you know, with a little bit of grace because we know that we're adored by, by the power that doesn't, you know, it's, it's everything. So it doesn't have to like, you know, one-up me or criticize me. Like, it doesn't have to do those things. It's just, you know, steady at a door in me all the time.

And when I learned—

when I learned that I have access to that, when I learned that the church wasn't right and that the picket signs weren't right and that, you know, um, Matthew Shepard's killers weren't right— when I— when I learned that these things are fear that have spoken, and that's it, then I realize that I actually do, just as I am, have access to this love that is unquenchable, right? And I have a right, right, to access it and to be in relationship with it. And I, and I need to, right? A plant needs the sun to grow. I need, I need spirit. I need, I need that love, that, that God, that, that God idea, right? I need that thing that is the North Star in order to grow, otherwise I get stuck in the mess.

Absolutely. We have the love, right? Just that, that unconditional love and Being able to recognize that— well, first of all, recognize that all, you know, these other things are fear. And, um, I think when you let— when we're able to let go of that fear and to recognize it and then to let go of it, um, but also just to embrace the messiness and be okay with it and, um and just know that it's all part of this, this lovely— talking about embracing the messiness, and not even of the process, but just the messiness of life. And, and knowing that, you know, we're loved unconditionally no matter what. And so all of the, the fear, the rules, the, uh, you know, stepping a toe out of line and you're done for. Yeah, doesn't apply. Yeah, that's a really, really beautiful thing.

It's a long time. I mean, when, when we believe what we've been taught, then you can tell me you love me as many times as you want to, but if I can't believe you Right? This is why, this is why we have to do the work on the inside. This is why we have to, we have to unlearn. Each of us, each of us has got to be responsible for unlearning that which does not serve our growth and that which does not serve loving each other. I mean, that's just it in simple, simple English.

I mean, that's perfect. That's absolutely— I mean, that's exactly it. We— and, and I think that that's, you know, a big, a big point here, that, um, it is work, and it is work that you have to be very aware of that you're doing, kind of intentional work, not just something that's gonna kind of happen. It is intentional, and it is, um, and being gentle with yourself and giving yourself that time to work through and undo, because it does take time. This isn't something that happens overnight or in a week.

Um, yeah, and it's not always sexy, right? I know, sometimes it is not cute.

Okay. Oh, um, I would say for the most part it's not cute, but you know, um, yeah, but then this is the thing too, Heather, like What is it that motivates people to go to that level of work, right?

Is something has got to fall apart in order for us to be willing to unlearn that which has been getting us along just fine, right? And that's the thing, right? Is that when the world falls apart, this is a gift. Embrace it. Feel the pain. Feel the floor fall out beneath you. Look in your child's face, the child that you bore, the child that you've loved, the child that you've watched grow, the child that you trust, the child that you've held, the child who dances and makes your heart flutter. Look them in the face and know that they're telling you the truth, the only truth that they know how to tell you. Right? And whether it is or is not going to be the same truth in 10 years, our job is just to love and guide.

It is, right?

My father said to me, I don't love— I don't understand. He said, I don't— I don't understand. And he said, you know, I'm concerned about this because it's going to make your life hard. He said, but I don't love you any less. You know, my mom, my mom loved me anyway. My mom didn't kick me out. Many kids get kicked out, right?

They do. And it's not— and it's not our job necessarily to understand, is it? Our job as the parent is to love.

It becomes a problem a lot of times when— and this is what I was saying before— is, you know, when I come out of the closet, now my parents have to deal with this, the, the thing that I've been dealing with, right? So the reason I'm acting out, or the reason that I'm, I'm holed away in my room, or the reason that I'm not okay, is because I don't fit your plan for me, your ideas of me. I'm still playing, I'm still acting as if I do, but I'm wondering if this is my life, if this is the, you know, and We all become actors in our world at different times. You know, we play the wife when we want to be free. We play the teacher because of the retirement when we want to go and sing in a band. Like, these are not quite the same thing, but I mean, we all can access that experience, whether it was a heavy one or, you know, a mediocre one. Like, we know that experience. Of not knowing if all of me is ever going to fit here. And when we don't want to hand that off to our parent, because now our parent has to look at themselves. And I think a lot of times when the church, or when, when families, or whatever, cast out, it's because they're trying to protect themselves from falling apart.

Right, right. The pain.

Well, and, and the whole structure of the ideas. Like, what do we have if we don't have the church? What do we have if we don't have right and wrong? What do we have if we don't have good and bad? What do we have if we don't have male and female? What do we have if we don't have what we understand, the things that we've all agreed on? What then? Well, some of us have to answer those questions to survive. And, and then we burden others with them when we decide to survive and come out. And then it has to become a larger discussion. And that's the courageous work that you're doing, and that Susan and, and Rob Cottrell are doing at freedhearts.org. I mean, that's the courageous work, right?

Well, I think it is important for so many reasons, but I, I think the courage that it takes for, you know, the courage that it took for you to come out to your parents, to your brothers, um, to people you loved. And I think, you know, when I think about Connor, the courage that it took for him to come out to us That is so huge. That is so, you know, extraordinary that it is the least I can do to figure my own stuff out, right? I'm his mom, you know. I love him unconditionally without— yeah, there are not words. Each of my kids. And, um, Goodness. And I think that's, you know, one of my bigger— and to not be afraid of that. Yeah, it's scary. Oh, it's a scary place, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

It's just messy.

Yeah, it's messy.

Just life getting messy.

Yeah. And sometimes that's just really fun too. I mean, there's some fun stuff that happens in all that messiness, right?

Can be, yeah.

So, I mean, who knew that I'd ever go get my ear pierced with my son? Nobody. Nobody could have ever called that one of the most fun things I've ever done. I mean, you know, there are crazy fun things that happen with us.

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

I wanted to ask you about your podcast, but before we go there, um, I just want to kind of back up a little bit because you've, you've touched on this, and I think this is a really important thing that you talked about in your book, and, and you— we've talked about it a little bit today, and I've talked about it a little bit in past podcasts, that being gay causes you to be depressed or to be anxious or to have a substance abuse problem or to be more likely to, you know, have suicidal ideation or suicidal tendencies. And, you know, as we were talking about, yes, there are statistics that support that. They're all higher among queer people, right? But I think that that's like such a— people look at that and they're like, oh yeah, well, they're more likely to, all of these things. What they're missing is the why. And that's kind of what I was working my way toward, is that's where we— I— we want to have this conversation. This is where I want to have the conversation. I know other parents want to have the conversation. You want to have the conversation.

Well, and here's the thing, right? So when, when there's a moat around the life that I want right? When everything that is working in life seems to be in the castle, right? And I don't get to go for whatever reason, whether I'm gay, whether I'm a different race, whether I'm a different gender, whether I— like, for whatever otherness doesn't fit. And I see all of the happiness at the castle I need something to medicate the pain of not belonging. That's just human. I want to belong. That's in my code. Every one of us, right? So when I don't feel like I belong, I am more likely to turn outside of myself to self-medicate. It might be with food, it might be with promiscuity, it might be with, um— and that's another thing, right, is so just on the promiscuity thing, uh, promiscuity and homosexuality are not synonymous. Promiscuity is a difficult— promiscuity is sometimes a choice by adults, and that's their business. And I don't— it's not up to me to judge that. But it's also one of the things that we can reach for. I certainly did. One of the things that we can reach for when we feel so painfully disconnected from other human beings that we just want to be tangled in somebody's arms, right? We want to feel, right, something. Promiscuity is not the same thing as homosexuality. And they often get perceived as— people, people say, well, homosexual behavior is in the, in the clubs or in the bathhouses or in the— no, that's promiscuity, right?

There's, there's a—

that's when I'm, that's when I'm in pain and I just, and I need to use something to survive today. 'Or that's— maybe I'm not in pain. Maybe I'm just an adult who wants to have multiple partners, and I get to decide that for myself.' Either way, not somebody else's business. Does that make sense? I don't even think I made my point.

Well, no, it does. I mean, your, your point is—

because then the church says that homosexuality is perverted and is wrong and is going to ruin the church, the marriage, but what's ruining marriage is promiscuity, right?

Not homosexuality. They are not synonymous, right? It's right.

It's the inability to commit to another human being, right?

That is what promiscuity is, right? Is that what you're saying? Right.

We might have to end.

That makes a ton.

I'm not sure if I've said what I meant to say.

I'll listen to it again.

Um, okay.

To make sure you— but I think you did. I think that you got there and then it was, it was good. I mean, I understood what you were saying, but we want everybody to understand. I have the gift of being able to get facial, you know, facial cues, body language cues too from you. So I kind of understand that too. Um, but anyway, so then, no, that does make sense. And I think that that's just a really powerful— both of those. Both saying that, um, promiscuity and homosexuality are not synonymous and making the— making that clarification of why promiscuity occurs with anybody. It's not just— yeah, you know, and with homosexuals. Heterosexuals do it plenty. Um, it's, it's everywhere. And then with substance use and substance abuse? Why does that— I think you were very clear on both of those points.

Again, it's a, it's a way to fit in. Substance use can be a way to fit in, right? If you find a group of people who are also in pain and they're using substances, I want to belong. So if I can't belong where I'd like to belong, then I'm going to belong where I can belong.

And I think that it's also as I've watched Connor, it's a way to numb pain, shame, self-medication, self-loathing. Yeah, total self-medication, and just to make all of that less intense until they're able to— I know until he was able to really start peeling back the layers and, and working through some things. Certainly understandable. Thank you for talking about that because I know that.

Yeah, and I, I've really needed the help of other people with similar experience of going from addiction to recovery. I've needed a lot of help from other people, you know. This isn't something that I sort of like turned around on my own, you know. I was a, I was a mess and I caused a lot of pain and I put my mother through hell. And, um, and it wasn't— it, it was It was ugly for a while. And then I, and then I found a group of people who, you know, had a path to recovery. And I, I jumped on board. And, you know, and I'm just, I'm forever grateful to those people. And they're all still in my life today, you know. But I need that community for recovery. I can't do it by myself. No, I just can't. Because You know, I need to be with— I need to belong. And the world doesn't, uh, the world hasn't had to face themselves the way that I've had to face myself. And so it's difficult to have conversations with people in the world that go as, uh, as rich and as rich as, as raw as I need them to go to feel like I'm having a real conversation.

Right.

Because in recovery, you— in order to survive, you have to peel away the crap. You walk naked into the world every day, and it's difficult, but it's, it's amazing. And so if you have other people who are doing that too, then you do always belong somewhere, right?

Well, and it also gives you strength too, right? Um, just that support and that knowing that you are not the only one who's going through this and that you have people who are, you know, truly in your corner. Um, and that's huge.

Really, there's, there's groups, uh, to support family members who love, uh, folks who are dealing with substance abuse. People can go to Al-Anon. That's for family and friends of people who abuse substances, you know, just to find similar support. Just, uh, you know, somebody else who's going through their son or their daughter not stopping but coming home every night. And like, what is that like? You can't go and talk to people at work about that. So where do you go? Family members have places to go too. There's a lot of resources. You can find some of them at my website under resources. I put together a whole big thing, and I, I think you do too. You've got quite a few too, don't you?

Yeah, yeah, yes. But I will definitely, um, just for everybody's reference, I will be linking Jen's website and Jen's book, um, and all these different things in the show notes so you can, can see what she's put together as well, um, because I think that's really valuable. I might have to— we might have to share some resources here. It's always You got it, Mom. Oh my gosh. I'm like the biggest resource nerd. I can get off on a trail of, you know, finding what I'm looking at something. And then I just, I'm sure you've done the same. Oh my goodness. And you're like, oh wow, look at that. Oh. And then 2 hours has gone by and I'm like, well, this isn't even where I started, but oh, yeah.

Yeah, totally. Why am I looking at high tops?

What's going on? Oh my goodness, yes, that's so true. Oh my gosh. Well, I want to, um, kind of wrap up today by talking about your podcast because you just started your own podcast called Just Say It.

I tell you what, I have been wanting to start one, and I have started one several times over the last many years. I mean, I used to do— I used to, um, I was a vocal producer on a radio show in Los Angeles for a while, and I just love radio and I wanted to do it, but it was harder to come by the jobs or jobs that at least paid. So I took to podcasting when I first learned about it, but I haven't successfully done one yet. I think I'm at a place now where I'm— that's why I called it Just Say It, because, you know, I'm finding, I'm finding the voice that I've always— I'm just going to use my voice. I'm just going to say the things that might offend, that might— would whatever, because I always want to take care of others. I don't want to offend, and I'm tired. So I want to have the conversations. I want to have conversations with people who are, you know, maybe, you know, folks in the LGBTQ community who are pastors, who are ministers, who are family members. I want to talk to people who are formerly incarcerated, and I want to, I want to talk to people who are on the margins and frequently misunderstood and whose humanity gets lost behind the labels. And I want to bring them to the forefront through story and through introductions. You know, I've got, I've got a lot of friends that are amazing, amazing, amazing people who have just come from the ashes and, and risen again, are doing incredible work in the world. And I just want to, I just want to interview them like you're interviewing me, and I just want to bring them Just talk about it. That's what I love. I just love talking with folks.

Yeah, well, you're good at it. You're very good at it. You're very easy to talk to. So I'm gonna put that on the top of my list. Thank you. Awesome. This is just— oops, I just lost one of my— um, we're just this love fest here. Um, so much fun. And I will put that on my list, and everybody out there has to to listen to. And, um, I can't wait to hear who you bring on.

And yeah, I probably got ahead of myself posting it already because I, I've got to produce quite a few this weekend to catch up with myself because— yeah, but it'll be good, it'll be good.

That's good. You've got it. Yeah, totally. It's just, just hunker down. That's what I always, you know, I record a couple of them, I It's the recording part's super fun, and then the editing part is, you know, you just kind of like shut yourself in a room for a couple of hours and go, right?

Yeah. Well, I want to meet Connor sometime. You've gotta, you've gotta have him reach out to me after he reads the book.

I will.

I love to chat with them. How old is he?

He's 19. Um, he'll be 20 in July, so Um, he's very excited about officially not being a teenager anymore.

Right on. Well, hey, listen, um, let him know that he's welcome anytime to, to reach out to me.

I will. Thank you, that's really kind. Yeah, thank you, thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, he is, uh, just— he is a cool kid. Um, If you ever have a— he did a show with me a few months ago.

I listened.

Did you listen to that one?

I checked it out, yeah.

Right? I mean, it's one of my faves because that one was particularly fun to edit because I sat there before and I was like, okay, you can't swear on this because otherwise I have to rate it differently on Apple Podcasts.

Yeah, I swore. I dropped something while we were talking. You're going to have to pull that out.

I thought, oh, I think as I said it, I think that would be okay. I was just really worried, you know, he's a 19-year-old boy, so I knew what could possibly fly out of his mouth. And so I was giggling as I was editing, so I was like, ah, there it is, and there's a rant, and there's— and it was just— I loved it. It was fun.

That's great.

Oh yes, I will definitely let him know. And, um, You know, he, he loves this. They're all super cute about, you know, my podcast. I told them they all had to be very quiet while we were doing this today. So this is sheltering in place, and having everybody at home makes it a little more challenging. Yeah, for sure, right? So anyway, oh my goodness. Well, is there anything else that you'd like to share or that I can just put out in the world for you?

No, I think you're doing great. I appreciate you, um, having me on. I appreciate the work you're doing. Thanks for plugging my book. I'm going to be doing a, um, a series of virtual online talking circles with Susan Cottrell from freedhearts.org. We're going to be holding space online, uh, for LGBTQ folks, um, something that I used to do in the jails and prisons when I worked. I worked in the jails and prisons, and we used to hold healing circles with the men and women who were incarcerated. And it won't be quite, you know, you— it's a— it'll be a simpler version of that which I did inside, but, but they're powerful, and they, they just create a wonderful space. I've never done one virtually, so it's gonna— you know, the shelter-in-place is forcing us to take what we were gonna do in retreat weekends for her beloved, we write, and we're gonna be doing it online. So it's— we'll see what happens, but we've got people signed up and we're looking forward to it. So cross your fingers and hope that that goes well. And yeah, more of them and eventually live. So it's, it's exciting. It's exciting that we're at a time when we can talk about it and we can create space for people to have their experience and I'm just glad that I, uh, you know, um, am well and, and just grateful, you know, and that I can hopefully be somebody for people like Connor or people like me when I was younger to look to and be like, wow, maybe I can grow up and be happy and be healthy. Maybe I can be and love God. Maybe I can be gay and be married. Maybe I can be all of the things that I was, that I was gifted to be. Maybe I can. That's what I want to be. It's just that hope, you know.

I love that. Well, you are the hope dealer, right?

Ah, yeah.

I love that. I love that. That's— and it's perfect. And I, you know, I couldn't have said that better. So you, you do embody all of those things and you are such a great mentor and person. You're so easy to connect with that all of these— everyone who meets you and just doing what you do is perfect. And I'm so excited for you. And I definitely will put some information out there about the virtual, what you're doing with Susan. And the Beloved Weekend's coming up. I'll have to check— I'll have to check the virtual ones out as well. Um, that would be so much fun. So thank you, thank you.

Thanks for your time. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. You are welcome.

Thanks so much for joining Jen and me today. Remember to just breathe. Taking a few minutes each day to focus on your breath and calm and center yourself, it will give you strength and clarity, especially right now. Check out the show notes on my website for the links I mentioned for Jen's book, website, podcast, and Soul Circles with Susan Cottrell. And please help me continue to reach Reach more people who need support and love by subscribing to and reviewing Just Breathe, and share this with anyone who needs to know they are not alone. Until next time!